I forgot there were desyncs in Gen II. Which moves cause it?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
All Gens Past Gens Research Thread
- Thread starter Jellicent
- Start date
Addressing the recent Beat Up discussion:
I caught wind of the Beat Up desync thing awhile ago and have been meaning to make a post about it, so sorry for not doing that earlier. While I recognize that "no one uses it" or whatever, I still think it's important for it to be addressed. Rezzo brought up the tiering policy that states we should try to adhere to cart mechanics as much as we can and I agree. While just straight up banning Beat Up is probably the easiest solution since it wouldn't really affect competitive play, I personally would be afraid of the precedent that would set in case some kind of desync was found in the future with a more often-used move like (god forbid) Curse. Sure, that's a worst-case scenario, but I think it's best to not leave it as is. Thus, in my opinion, I think it's probably good to futureproof this kind of scenario with a Desync Clause Mod, since this has a precedent with RBY.
RBY uses the following Desync Clause Mod: "If a move would cause a situation that leads to battles desynchronizing during a Link Battle on cartridge, the move will fail." This was based off a community vote, and while not everyone agrees with this mod to the game, it's what was decided on and has since been changed to work this way on Showdown. So yes, there's precedent for this kind of thing to be implemented, but I would understand if the GSC community feels differently about desyncs and wouldn't want an RBY community vote from 2020 to determine a decision on their metagames.
Ultimately though, this isn't my call, so I'm going to tag the GSC Council (FriendOfMrGolem120, Fear, Tony) as well as my co-leaders (Siatam and Rage) to see if they'd like to give their thoughts in this thread as well.
I caught wind of the Beat Up desync thing awhile ago and have been meaning to make a post about it, so sorry for not doing that earlier. While I recognize that "no one uses it" or whatever, I still think it's important for it to be addressed. Rezzo brought up the tiering policy that states we should try to adhere to cart mechanics as much as we can and I agree. While just straight up banning Beat Up is probably the easiest solution since it wouldn't really affect competitive play, I personally would be afraid of the precedent that would set in case some kind of desync was found in the future with a more often-used move like (god forbid) Curse. Sure, that's a worst-case scenario, but I think it's best to not leave it as is. Thus, in my opinion, I think it's probably good to futureproof this kind of scenario with a Desync Clause Mod, since this has a precedent with RBY.
RBY uses the following Desync Clause Mod: "If a move would cause a situation that leads to battles desynchronizing during a Link Battle on cartridge, the move will fail." This was based off a community vote, and while not everyone agrees with this mod to the game, it's what was decided on and has since been changed to work this way on Showdown. So yes, there's precedent for this kind of thing to be implemented, but I would understand if the GSC community feels differently about desyncs and wouldn't want an RBY community vote from 2020 to determine a decision on their metagames.
Ultimately though, this isn't my call, so I'm going to tag the GSC Council (FriendOfMrGolem120, Fear, Tony) as well as my co-leaders (Siatam and Rage) to see if they'd like to give their thoughts in this thread as well.
Bumping this thread with something completely unrelated to the above lol (mostly copy-pasted from Discord):
---
Was wondering if anyone could help me with this doubles-based damage query:
I was watching a speedrun of HGSS and the streamer said that when a move like Discharge is used, the damage is applied separately to every Pokemon instead of at the same time in order of speed. So like say you’re attacking Pokemon A and Pokemon B with a spread move. Pokemon A is faster, and takes damage with spread reduction and it faints. Then, damage is calculated for Pokemon B, but since there isn’t another Pokemon on the field anymore, Pokemon B’s damage is calculated as if it’s the only one on the field and doesn’t get the spread damage reduction.
My questions are:
1. Is this uniquely a Gen 4 thing or is it also in Gen 3? (streamer says that in later gens damage is calculated at the same time)
2. Is this in-game only or does it also affect Vs. Battles?
3. Is this implemented on PS?
Just wondering because I had never heard about this before.
Here’s the link to the video:
(2:52:43-2:55:10 is where the discussion takes place)
Summary of the few minutes of the video:
Streamer says Bellossom being paralyzed is important because it makes Parasect faster than Bellossom. So Parasect takes damage first, and thus takes it with spread reduction, and is not KO’d. If Bellossom weren’t paralyzed it would’ve taken damage first and been KO’d, and THEN the game would do damage calculation on the Parasect, see that it’s on the field alone, and calculate without spread damage, thus KOing the Parasect too.
---
Let me know if anything about the above isn't clear and I can try and explain it better. But yeah, I had just never heard of this mechanic before so I was wondering if it was known. I can do some testing on PS I guess to see if it's implemented but yeah.
---
Was wondering if anyone could help me with this doubles-based damage query:
I was watching a speedrun of HGSS and the streamer said that when a move like Discharge is used, the damage is applied separately to every Pokemon instead of at the same time in order of speed. So like say you’re attacking Pokemon A and Pokemon B with a spread move. Pokemon A is faster, and takes damage with spread reduction and it faints. Then, damage is calculated for Pokemon B, but since there isn’t another Pokemon on the field anymore, Pokemon B’s damage is calculated as if it’s the only one on the field and doesn’t get the spread damage reduction.
My questions are:
1. Is this uniquely a Gen 4 thing or is it also in Gen 3? (streamer says that in later gens damage is calculated at the same time)
2. Is this in-game only or does it also affect Vs. Battles?
3. Is this implemented on PS?
Just wondering because I had never heard about this before.
Here’s the link to the video:
(2:52:43-2:55:10 is where the discussion takes place)
Summary of the few minutes of the video:
Streamer says Bellossom being paralyzed is important because it makes Parasect faster than Bellossom. So Parasect takes damage first, and thus takes it with spread reduction, and is not KO’d. If Bellossom weren’t paralyzed it would’ve taken damage first and been KO’d, and THEN the game would do damage calculation on the Parasect, see that it’s on the field alone, and calculate without spread damage, thus KOing the Parasect too.
---
Let me know if anything about the above isn't clear and I can try and explain it better. But yeah, I had just never heard of this mechanic before so I was wondering if it was known. I can do some testing on PS I guess to see if it's implemented but yeah.
Alright so here's what I'm testing in a DPP battle.
Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4doublesou-1743519910
tl;dr This shows that PS! is different from the in-game battle (at least according to the streamer).
I unfortunately don't have a way to reliably test the mechanic in-game or during a Vs. Battle with another person, however. If anyone could verify this that'd be great!
EDIT: For anyone interested, Marty confirmed that this has been known about, just not implemented on PS! yet.
Raikou:
31 SpA IV
252 SpA EV
neutral nature
Move: Discharge
vs.
Aerodactyl:
0 HP IV
0 SpD IV
0 HP EV
0 SpD EV
neutral nature
AND
Vaporeon:
31 HP IV
31 SpD IV
248 HP
36 SpD IV
neutral nature
What SHOULD happen, based off what we saw in the video above:
Turn 1: Setup turn to get Raikou by itself
Turn 2:
1. Aerodactyl is faster, so it takes damage first
2. Aerodactyl is KO'd by Discharge (252 SpA Raikou Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 272-324 (100.7 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO, this is the doubles calc)
3. Vaporeon is slower, so it takes damage second
4. Vaporeon takes more than half damage (252 SpA Raikou Discharge vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD Vaporeon: 242-288 (52.2 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, this is the singles calc)
What ACTUALLY happened:
Turn 1: Setup turn to get Raikou by itself
Turn 2:
1. Aerodactyl is faster, so it takes damage first
2. Aerodactyl is KO'd by Discharge
3. Vaporeon is slower, so it takes damage second
4. Vaporeon takes LESS than half damage (252 SpA Raikou Discharge vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD Vaporeon: 182-216 (39.3 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, this is the doubles calc)
31 SpA IV
252 SpA EV
neutral nature
Move: Discharge
vs.
Aerodactyl:
0 HP IV
0 SpD IV
0 HP EV
0 SpD EV
neutral nature
AND
Vaporeon:
31 HP IV
31 SpD IV
248 HP
36 SpD IV
neutral nature
What SHOULD happen, based off what we saw in the video above:
Turn 1: Setup turn to get Raikou by itself
Turn 2:
1. Aerodactyl is faster, so it takes damage first
2. Aerodactyl is KO'd by Discharge (252 SpA Raikou Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 272-324 (100.7 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO, this is the doubles calc)
3. Vaporeon is slower, so it takes damage second
4. Vaporeon takes more than half damage (252 SpA Raikou Discharge vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD Vaporeon: 242-288 (52.2 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, this is the singles calc)
What ACTUALLY happened:
Turn 1: Setup turn to get Raikou by itself
Turn 2:
1. Aerodactyl is faster, so it takes damage first
2. Aerodactyl is KO'd by Discharge
3. Vaporeon is slower, so it takes damage second
4. Vaporeon takes LESS than half damage (252 SpA Raikou Discharge vs. 248 HP / 36 SpD Vaporeon: 182-216 (39.3 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, this is the doubles calc)
Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4doublesou-1743519910
tl;dr This shows that PS! is different from the in-game battle (at least according to the streamer).
I unfortunately don't have a way to reliably test the mechanic in-game or during a Vs. Battle with another person, however. If anyone could verify this that'd be great!
EDIT: For anyone interested, Marty confirmed that this has been known about, just not implemented on PS! yet.
Last edited:
I don't like Desync Clause Mod because it gives a false image of the metagame to players that use real games (Game Boy, Game Boy Color and Virtual Console). Imagine if you tried to host a tournament of Gen I or Gen II with real hardware, it would be a nightmare because the tournament organizers would have to deal constantly with situations where the matches were desynchronized due to Counter or Beat Up. I think that we should advise people that use real hardware to avoid those situations by simply banning the moves that cause desynchronizations.
Some potentially competitively relevant old gens mechanics I found from the Japanese community recently that isn't properly implemented on PS yet:
Prior to generation 8, Assurance doubles in power on the turn that the target switches into hazards, even if the Pokemon switched into it before move selection (i.e. a free switch after a Pokemon faints). This means in generation 6 and 7 Choice Band Weavile can potentially sweep with a 120BP Assurance if it's killing the target every turn and the next Pokemon keeps taking hazards.
In Generation 4, Metronome boosts will stay even if the move hits protect, misses, or the target is immune. Even though the boost this gen is only 10% per use, it still overcomes the downside in later gens that nerfed it to the ground when it was discovered that protect resets the counter.
In Generation 3, Destiny Bond will not kill the attacker upon death if the killing blow was done by a multihit move. While dbond and multihit moves aren't that common in adv ou (I think?), it's still a noteworthy interaction that may impact lower tiers
Prior to generation 8, Assurance doubles in power on the turn that the target switches into hazards, even if the Pokemon switched into it before move selection (i.e. a free switch after a Pokemon faints). This means in generation 6 and 7 Choice Band Weavile can potentially sweep with a 120BP Assurance if it's killing the target every turn and the next Pokemon keeps taking hazards.
In Generation 4, Metronome boosts will stay even if the move hits protect, misses, or the target is immune. Even though the boost this gen is only 10% per use, it still overcomes the downside in later gens that nerfed it to the ground when it was discovered that protect resets the counter.
In Generation 3, Destiny Bond will not kill the attacker upon death if the killing blow was done by a multihit move. While dbond and multihit moves aren't that common in adv ou (I think?), it's still a noteworthy interaction that may impact lower tiers
So from this does it refer to hazards as in Stealth Rocks and Spikes, or ANY form of entry hazards such as Toxic Spikes and Sticky Webs?
And in connection to Toxic Spikes, if I were to use protect the turn they attack while poisoned, does that trigger Assurance to become a 120 BP move, or does it remain as a 60 BP move?
We could also extend this further, does the same apply to weather affects such as sand and hail? As that also chips the opponent, would that trigger assurance to become a base 120 move?
I'm assuming the Tspikes, Webs and weather chip damage won't affect, but its just a hypothesis and well its worth expanding on.