Format Discussion Past Gens Random Battle Sets

[livid washed]

u'll probably get Choice Scarf on some sets :/

In gens 6-7, Scizor is guaranteed to have Bullet Punch so it can't have Choice Scarf (priority move), and Scyther will get either Choice Band or Eviolite since it is an NFE, so no worries there.

Scyther can already get Choice Scarf in gen 4 (with or without U-turn), so nothing new here, and Scizor will only get it if it doesn't have Bullet Punch. I think Choice Scarf is a pretty suitable item for a 4 attacks Scizor without Bullet Punch. Unlike in later gens, Scizor is not guaranteed to have Bullet Punch in gen 4 randbats (maybe something that might want to be changed as well?).

 

[livid washed]

Is there a reason why Lati@s don't have Soul Dew in gens 3-6? Especially in gen 3 (and gen 4 for Latios), where they are Uber levelled, I think they should have the Uber item as well. Other (admittedly less good) Pokemon have their Pokemon-specific items, e.g. Pikachu, Marowak.

 

[Celever]

Is there a reason why Lati@s don't have Soul Dew in gens 3-6? Especially in gen 3 (and gen 4 for Latios), where they are Uber levelled, I think they should have the Uber item as well. Other (admittedly less good) Pokemon have their Pokemon-specific items, e.g. Pikachu, Marowak.

Basically, for balance purposes. Soul Dew Latis are considered too overpowered in gens 3-5, even at the uber level. It's not considered worthwhile to nerf their levels further than ubers just for the sake of having their sets be the same as their ubers sets, so basing them off their OU sets is preferred.

For gen 6 there is a difficult balance between Megas needing to be represented in rands and the fact that Soul Dew Lati@s are better than Lati@s-Mega. The teams behind gen 6 and 7 ultimately came to different decisions on how to implement that trade off.

It's not the only example of this type of balancing that diverges from ubers -- Gen 4 is the last gen with Baton Pass despite that diverging from Ubers, and in Gen 3 Deoxys doesn't have TwistedSpoon specifically because it would be able to OHKO too many things. Oldgen rands are handled with a little more care than gen 8 because they don't have active level balancing, and I think gen 7 also has slightly more individual level balancing compared with gens older than that.

 

[cb aaron judge]

have gotten several guts machamp with dynamicpunch in gen 4 randbats, needless to say it is not ideal to rely on a stab with 50% accuracy

 

[Magmar54]

have gotten several guts machamp with dynamicpunch in gen 4 randbats, needless to say it is not ideal to rely on a stab with 50% accuracy

This is a known issue and we are working on it, thanks for reporting it though!

 

[El químico del pueblucho]

Wait why Cresselia was nerfed to don't have Screens? It was a hard supportive mon that was hard to ko, similar as Uxie, also Claydol was nerfed, this mon isn't that strong in offense to need to new move just to get Screens removed from its sets. In btoh cases it makes u more vulnerable to sucker punch. Also Why BulletPunchless Scizor exist? Is just not good u will get koed in no time (if ur opponent decides to just spam attacks). All in gen4 rands

 

[Celever]

Wait why Cresselia was nerfed to don't have Screens? It was a hard supportive mon that was hard to ko, similar as Uxie, also Claydol was nerfed, this mon isn't that strong in offense to need to new move just to get Screens removed from its sets. In btoh cases it makes u more vulnerable to sucker punch. Also Why BulletPunchless Scizor exist? Is just not good u will get koed in no time (if ur opponent decides to just spam attacks). All in gen4 rands

Claydol's set was changed because its other moves are so good. We didn't take Screens off Claydol so that it would get Psychic, but rather so it would always get one of, and more frequently two of, Spin / Rocks / Explosion as these are some of the best moves in the format, and Screens pale in comparison. Being able to add Psychic was a nice afterthought because now something like Screens Psychic Explosion would be impossible and that set being very bad is the only reason it didn't have Psychic at all before.

I actually agree with you about Cresselia and missed when that change was made initially. We are planning to give screens back to it. The decision was made before we fixed screens and now that they're fixed the problem we were trying to fix by removing them isn't a problem (CM Light Screen).

There are exactly two sets without Bullet Punch, Bug Bite / Superpower / Roost / Swords Dance is a good wallbreaker set that beats matchups that it would lose if one of those moves were Bullet Punch, and Bug Bite / Superpower / Pursuit / Roost is a nice defensive pivot set that still effectively creates 50/50s between Bullet Punch and Pursuit because the opponent has to assume you have Bullet Punch (if they are good) while the damage output from its two strongest attacks is great to have since you don't have Swords Dance.

 

[El químico del pueblucho]

Claydol's set was changed because its other moves are so good. We didn't take Screens off Claydol so that it would get Psychic, but rather so it would always get one of, and more frequently two of, Spin / Rocks / Explosion as these are some of the best moves in the format, and Screens pale in comparison. Being able to add Psychic was a nice afterthought because now something like Screens Psychic Explosion would be impossible and that set being very bad is the only reason it didn't have Psychic at all before.

I actually agree with you about Cresselia and missed when that change was made initially. We are planning to give screens back to it. The decision was made before we fixed screens and now that they're fixed the problem we were trying to fix by removing them isn't a problem (CM Light Screen).

There are exactly two sets without Bullet Punch, Bug Bite / Superpower / Roost / Swords Dance is a good wallbreaker set that beats matchups that it would lose if one of those moves were Bullet Punch, and Bug Bite / Superpower / Pursuit / Roost is a nice defensive pivot set that still effectively creates 50/50s between Bullet Punch and Pursuit because the opponent has to assume you have Bullet Punch (if they are good) while the damage output from its two strongest attacks is great to have since you don't have Swords Dance.

Claydol other moves are good but still i don't see the reason of adding Psychic and removing Screens, yes your mentioned set is bad and Stealth Rocks is good, but u have to consideer that Claydol lacks on Attack and Special Attack Power, and its defenses are good but aren't too troublematic, but with one or 2 screens it can get annoying to beat, more if it has Rapid Spin, not mentioning that this is the gen4 where u need more defensive sets instead of more offensive ones, I think even Toxic would be a way better move for Claydol than Psychic, so it doesn't have to worry if its moves can deal enough damage to don't be ko'd and can punish some switches.
In case of Scizor the game of thinking about which moves can Scizor have can work until unless your opponent knows about your set, also notice that both of the mentioned sets makes u very vulnerable to most of the offensive mons in the tier including nplot/cm users to anything that have fire attacks, without Bullet Punch being enforced, ur opponent might not consideer u a problem and just will keep the offensive, if Bullet Punch is enforced, your opponent will think it twice.

 

[Celever]

Claydol other moves are good but still i don't see the reason of adding Psychic and removing Screens, yes your mentioned set is bad and Stealth Rocks is good, but u have to consideer that Claydol lacks on Attack and Special Attack Power, and its defenses are good but aren't too troublematic, but with one or 2 screens it can get annoying to beat, more if it has Rapid Spin, not mentioning that this is the gen4 where u need more defensive sets instead of more offensive ones, I think even Toxic would be a way better move for Claydol than Psychic, so it doesn't have to worry if its moves can deal enough damage to don't be ko'd and can punish some switches.
In case of Scizor the game of thinking about which moves can Scizor have can work until unless your opponent knows about your set, also notice that both of the mentioned sets makes u very vulnerable to most of the offensive mons in the tier including nplot/cm users to anything that have fire attacks, without Bullet Punch being enforced, ur opponent might not consideer u a problem and just will keep the offensive, if Bullet Punch is enforced, your opponent will think it twice.

A huge perk of Claydol having Psychic is in what it is able to answer by having it -- it means that Gengar can't safely spinblock, Hitmonchan and Hitmontop can't safely spin its own rocks, and by virtue of its typing allows it to actually threaten top format threats like Machamp and Weezing. It is a fairly specialised move, and I agree that for the most part it wants a defensive set, but it will still usually have a defensively-inclined set. But thanks to high BP moves and those moves being good types, 70 offenses is just enough for it to use its offenses to make its utility moves more effective. We may add Toxic to it too though, and will have more players weigh in on that suggestion. There are merits and downsides to that change.

Scizor is going to be helped by another change we're making soon, which will make it even less susceptible to offensive threats (a U-Turn rennovation in the format as a whole). That change will actually make Bullet Punch more common as a nice side effect, though it still won't be 100%.

 

[El químico del pueblucho]

A huge perk of Claydol having Psychic is in what it is able to answer by having it -- it means that Gengar can't safely spinblock, Hitmonchan and Hitmontop can't safely spin its own rocks, and by virtue of its typing allows it to actually threaten top format threats like Machamp and Weezing. It is a fairly specialised move, and I agree that for the most part it wants a defensive set, but it will still usually have a defensively-inclined set. But thanks to high BP moves and those moves being good types, 70 offenses is just enough for it to use its offenses to make its utility moves more effective. We may add Toxic to it too though, and will have more players weigh in on that suggestion. There are merits and downsides to that change.

Scizor is going to be helped by another change we're making soon, which will make it even less susceptible to offensive threats (a U-Turn rennovation in the format as a whole). That change will actually make Bullet Punch more common as a nice side effect, though it still won't be 100%.

Adding Psychic will reduce the chance of getting better moves, yeah it can be better aganist some of the mentioned mons here, i'm not aganist coverage, but I must when that interfeers with better sets, in this case Screens that u can do in the switch in even u can do these without knowing ur opponent mons, also having Psychic can make u get bad mu vs some mons, like Tropius, Latios/Latias, most pursuit users and if u're unlucky to not roll Equake, well all steel types :/.

 

[El químico del pueblucho]

Well these new changes on DPP, have been really good, still i'm not sure about tropius set and Beutifly one, specially the last one, stun spore does a lot for this v bad mon, it makes it a threat with that move and makes u think twice if u want to switch, rn is a joke and has nothing to save itself still has u-turn, but isn't the same and worse if your opponent did srocks or spikes before, Tropius set is great but Curse isn't too good for this mon, since now becomes slower than a good portions of its checks, Leech seed sucks sadly too, yeah this mon is very defensive but is very slow to make leech seed any useful and this mon doesn't have subs avaible :/, also it can be threatened v easily by any bug unless u suck like ariados, besides that Leaf Storm and Dragon Dance were a good aditions for this mon, and is very appreaciated!

 

[Celever]

Well these new changes on DPP, have been really good, still i'm not sure about tropius set and Beutifly one, specially the last one, stun spore does a lot for this v bad mon, it makes it a threat with that move and makes u think twice if u want to switch, rn is a joke and has nothing to save itself still has u-turn, but isn't the same and worse if your opponent did srocks or spikes before, Tropius set is great but Curse isn't too good for this mon, since now becomes slower than a good portions of its checks, Leech seed sucks sadly too, yeah this mon is very defensive but is very slow to make leech seed any useful and this mon doesn't have subs avaible :/, also it can be threatened v easily by any bug unless u suck like ariados, besides that Leaf Storm and Dragon Dance were a good aditions for this mon, and is very appreaciated!

Glad you're enjoying most of the changes so far!!

The idea behind taking Stun Spore off Beautifly is that A) it generated with Life Orb which meant that if Rocks were up and you didn't have removal you could send Beautifly in a maximum of one time, and B) that making it more specialised to trying to trade with the opponent (either as a revenge kill or with a good read with Specs) is ultimately better than trading Beautifly for just a paralysis instead of a KO. Scarf Beautifly also has legitimate cleaning potential, especially if you manage to get it into Swarm range! It's a very bad mon, but I've found the choice sets to generally be more successful than the LO ones. Also, this change was largely prompted because of the wider U-Turn change in the format, which is that U-Turn can now generate with only one other STAB attack instead of two on Bug-Type Pokémon. This is a great change for a lot of Pokémon, but on Beautifly it would have made something like Bug Buzz / U-Turn / Stun Spore / Psychic possible, which is a really bad set. So we had to choose between always choiced or always Bug Buzz / Stun Spore / Psychic / Hidden Power Ground in order to avoid those bad sets.

I agree that Leech Seed and Curse might not be great on Tropius, but they also might be! I think these are things that are worth trying -- Tropius is in a very unpredictable place right now, because we changed so many of its moves. If it turns out these moves are bad on it after further play testing we can always just remove them, but they have enough merit on paper to try it out. Leech Seed is mostly there as a support move for allies rather than a SubSeed sort of deal, which can work sometimes, and it will also be a pretty rare move anyway. And Curse is a matchup fish (much like Swords Dance and Dragon Dance) but it makes Tropius able to potentially clean up against a team that only has physical attackers (left alive). It's not uncommon at all for gen 4 teams to have one opposing mon that they really can't break, after all.

 

[El químico del pueblucho]

Glad you're enjoying most of the changes so far!!

The idea behind taking Stun Spore off Beautifly is that A) it generated with Life Orb which meant that if Rocks were up and you didn't have removal you could send Beautifly in a maximum of one time, and B) that making it more specialised to trying to trade with the opponent (either as a revenge kill or with a good read with Specs) is ultimately better than trading Beautifly for just a paralysis instead of a KO. Scarf Beautifly also has legitimate cleaning potential, especially if you manage to get it into Swarm range! It's a very bad mon, but I've found the choice sets to generally be more successful than the LO ones. Also, this change was largely prompted because of the wider U-Turn change in the format, which is that U-Turn can now generate with only one other STAB attack instead of two on Bug-Type Pokémon. This is a great change for a lot of Pokémon, but on Beautifly it would have made something like Bug Buzz / U-Turn / Stun Spore / Psychic possible, which is a really bad set. So we had to choose between always choiced or always Bug Buzz / Stun Spore / Psychic / Hidden Power Ground in order to avoid those bad sets.

I agree that Leech Seed and Curse might not be great on Tropius, but they also might be! I think these are things that are worth trying -- Tropius is in a very unpredictable place right now, because we changed so many of its moves. If it turns out these moves are bad on it after further play testing we can always just remove them, but they have enough merit on paper to try it out. Leech Seed is mostly there as a support move for allies rather than a SubSeed sort of deal, which can work sometimes, and it will also be a pretty rare move anyway. And Curse is a matchup fish (much like Swords Dance and Dragon Dance) but it makes Tropius able to potentially clean up against a team that only has physical attackers (left alive). It's not uncommon at all for gen 4 teams to have one opposing mon that they really can't break, after all.

In the first case, is way better than normal sets, since paralisis is a no joke, also u can spam it on any turn and the result will be always beneficial, like Beutifly has nothing vs flying types, it kinda sucks vs rock types, also u can get into Swarm range with life Orb without having to risk to survive a hit with is really helpful, also after u do Stun Spore u can do u-turn so u don't have to worry about if Beutifly will be ko'd in the next turn. Def Stun Spore is the best move of its set! (also is more reliable besides that 75%)

Also in the second case well not really, It will suck u get these moves instead of Roost, since now Roost chances are getting lower, also it can replace an attack move, and it can be a move u def want to beat steel types. Not counting also it has more problems to set up tahan rgisteel, since is weak to fire, hp ice is common, flying types hits very hard, SD mons destroy Tropius without too much troubles, etc etc, yeah it gets a better match up vs a lot of ground types but def isn't always the case. Curse will damage the mon in so many ways :/, and Leech Seed is worse since Tropius needs to be faster thant the opponent to work properly and u don't want to get this move instead of Roost, u might get fried with good switchs in less than 3 turns considering that this mon is weak to srocks!