ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M3 (READ POST #823)

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Swampert to A Rank

Swampert
It is an amazing pokemon despite having megaevolution and in itself has a bulk decent and a number of very high attack and also has a decent amount of special attack which we could surprise the opponent with moves like sludge wave and ice beam it is also immune to volt switch and this hinders the development of so famous VolTurn also is a decent pokemon to put rocks also has roar for phazer and an resistence to fire such as Entei and Darmanitan access to the stealth rocks and roar makes swampert an ideal entry hazard shuffler.
 
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Swampert to A Rank

Swampert
It is an amazing pokemon despite having megaevolution and in itself has a bulk decent and a number of very high attack and also has a decent amount of special attack which we could surprise the opponent with moves like sludge wave and ice beam it is also immune to volt switch and this hinders the development of so famous VolTurn also is a decent pokemon to put rocks also has roar for phazer and an immunity to fire such as Entei and Darmanitan access to the stealth rocks and roar makes swampert an ideal entry hazard shuffler.
It doesn't have an immunity to Fire, just resistance, and Entei's Sacred Fire has a 50% chance to screw it so it can't repeatedly switch on it.
 
I found myself using Swampert pretty often, as it packs many essential roles in one teamslot, but it sometimes feels underwhelming. It has a good typing, giving it a single weakness to the uncommon Grass-type, but it also means it lacks important resistances to Water, Ice, Bug, Fighting types (compared to Suicune, Empoleon and Slowking) making it a shaky check to powerhouses such as Feraligatr, Beedrill, Mienshao and Mamoswine. And while its bulk is good, it's not as good as the other great bulky Water-type of the tier, Suicune, meaning it doesn't take strong hits as well as Cune. It can't even survive a +6 Slurpuff with max HP max Def investment, which is really problematic. Couple all that with its lack of reliable recovery and its phobia of Scald, and you see how Swampert can struggle to fulfill its role as a defensive wall at times.

Keep it A- imo.
 
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Shadestep

volition immanent
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Do not agree with Swampert from A- > A

Why? Pretty easy. Swampert is so so so easy to wittle down, and is easily overloaded. Its only recovery is Leftovers, which is most of the time Knocked Off by for example Krookodile when you switch in Swampert on it.

It is a good fire check yes, but only for a couple of times. After a Sacred Fire burn, especially with hazards on the field, Swampert will probably be overloaded and be nothing but death fodder.

The most reliable way to recover up Swampert's HP is by healing wishing.
Normal wish-users (unless BP Vaporeon) can't reliably heal Swampert back up.

Another thing is a lot of random mons like carrying grass moves (GK Infernape, Energy Ball offensie Florges, etc.), which completely fuck up Swampert's day.

Swampert is usually used as a fire and/or flying check, which it only does so so. Most of the time, Rhyperior can easily replace Swampert on Balance builds, as it's a lot harder to break, even with SE hits.
 

LRXC

ADV 1v1 Pioneer
is a Community Contributor
Okay, I have previously done some really bad posts on Machamp and Vaporeon (When I just started smogon) So this is technically my first actual post for Viability Ranking! Today I will be discussing my opinions and reasoning to have Accelgor enter C-rank! I hope you enjoy reading this! Lets Begin!!!!



ACCELGOR FOR C RANK!!!

Okay, In my opinion, Accelgor is heavily underused and should be used more often, as a spikes lead, and a great fast special attacker. It has many options and can be a fun and great mon to use! Here are his base stat totals below! =)



Lets take a look as these base stats. Okay, Accelgor is obviously really frail, which is why it is almost always ran with a focus sash. But its Special Attack and Speed are very good especially its speed. Which outspeeds the entire UU, RU, and NU metagame except Mega Aerodactyl. Since Accelgor plays more of a supportive role, it basically has a prankster ability! Because no one outspeeds it, and allows Accelgor to do a number of things, including set up spikes(Most notable purpose), Potentially take out a mon with Final Gambit for a guaranteed OHKO, maybe put up a rain dance, or something else. This gives Accelgor a great lead spot on any team. Accelgor usually runs spike support with encore and other support moves which is very effective. With a focus sash, It is almost guaranteed to get 2 layers of spikes up, a big help to your team. Now, Accelgor obviously faces stiff competition with Froslass as a spiker. I will admit, Froslass is probably a better spiker for most teams, but that doesnt mean Accelgor doesnt deserve to be unranked, as it has some advantages over Froslass as a spiker....



Okay here I will be going over some of the pros and cons of using Accelgor as a lead spiker over Froslass
. Here we go. For one! Accelgor has a much higher speed than Froslass, meaning it can set up spikes more efficiently, and almost guarantee one layer. This massive speed stat also gives Accelgor another advantage over Froslass as it is much less likely to get TAUNTED. Taunt shuts Froslass down, and it happens a lot, because it is outsped by common taunters, such as Mega Houndoom
(Probably not a lead but still), Aerodactyl
, Crobat
, Azelf
, Tornadus
(By 1 point lol), and even Taunt Whimsicott
. That is a lot of outspeeds. Azelf is such a common lead as it is, and Accelgors Bug Buzz can take it out easily, or bring it down to its sash. Another advantage with Accelgor over Froslass is its special attack, allowing it do still deal a good amount of damage with taunt, or with magic bounce pokemon... Bug Buzz is super effective against Espeon
and OHKO it, if you run full special Accelgor as a lead (Without Final Gambit) 252 SpA Accelgor Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 258-306 (95.2 - 112.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
N
ow, Froslass is admittively a better lead spiker, due to it having a great ability in Cursed Body, having destiny bond, and usually also carrying taunt. It also blocks rapid spin, a huge counter to accelgor, but that is why it is smart to carry a good spin blocker with Accelgor such as Chandelure
, with by the way has great synergy with Accelgor.



Lastly, I want to look at some viable sets for Accelgor and some niches and such it has in the current metagame for UU.

Of course he mostly runs the common spikes lead set, which in itself is very effective.
Accelgor @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Final Gambit/Focus Blast
- Encore
- Bug Buzz


This is the standard set, and it works very effectively. Accelgor will almost always get spikes up, and then can either final gambit the opponett for a suicude OHKO, or maybe encore the opponett into setting up hazards, or getting some good damage off with Bug Buzz. It is a very nice set. You can even run Focus Blast over Final Gambit for more coverage and damage ouutput, if you did that you would then want to go max special attack and possibly modest depending on your teams needs. This set also utilizes his Unburden ability, which makes him even faster! Literally outspeeding almost every single mon, except maybe Agility Mega Aerodactyl (Which you will never see haha).... Not much else to say as the set is self explanitory.

Another set Accelgor uses VERY well is his Offensive set, with life orb, or even specs if you got gonads.

Accelgor @ Life Orb/ Specs (If you got balls haha)
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature or Modest Nature.
- Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power Ground/ Hidden Power Fire
- Focus Blast
- Giga Drain/ Sludge Bomb


This is one of my favorite sets, as it catches foes off guard, and can really do some nice wallbreaking as well. This set really does hit hard and always has momentum going with it with an amazing 145 base speed stat and a respectable base 100 special attack. These moves have almost PERFECT coverage. Bug Buzz is its main stab and it a great move overall, it allows for a possible Sp.Def drop, and bypasses substitutes, making some threats' substitutes useless. Focus Blast is for some insane damage output and to hit those pesky steel and rock types which resist bug, as well hitting ice, dark, and normal types very well too. Giga drain can be used for some health back, and can be used against some counters like Swampert
and Jellicent
(Who walls Accelgor's movepool). Sludge Bomb can be used over giga drain for some more damage and a nice poison chance, but also for coverage against fairies, who resist Bug and Fighting. This is why Sludge bomb is usually better. Lastly, we have Hp Ground. This is mainly for rock and steel types and notably Doublade
, which resists all stabs like a boss. Hp Fire can be used for Forretress
, who you will be commonly seeing as a lead against you, which ca be really beneficial, and hp fire is for more coverage and for Trevenant
, which all moves are nuetral or dont affect it. Onto the last viable set, and the one that a pretty nice niche.

Rain Dance lead Accelgor.

Accelgor @ Damp Rock
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rain Dance
- Spikes
- Encore/U-turn
- Bug Buzz


Rain dance lead Accelgor is the only mon in UU that can effectively set up rain and spikes, and is used well on offensive Rain teams. Now, Tornadus and Azelf have their own roles on rain dance leads, and do very well in that respect, but Accelgor is obviously the best Rain Dance Spikes lead. This set is great in that is also utilizes his most unused ability, Hydration, which means it can get rid of a paralysis, which cripples Accelgor, or even get rid of a Toxic if they want to break your sash. Encore is for the added utility and trapping of foes giving your rain team some needed momentum, or U-turn for some momentum. Even though Accelgor aint physical, it can still do some decent damage with stab. This is a very good utility mon for rain teams, and can actually deserves a spot on rain teams!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Okay, now that I am dome with that, I want to point out some other niches and moves Accelgor can use well, or nichely in some situations. (WARNING) These are not very good options, but these are worth mentioning, the other sets above are much better, but like I said, I am just stating some things Accelgor can do..... =) Lets begin

First! Accelgor weak to priority? It can learn Quick Attack and Feint, Feint can be used for a niche moment against Beedrill, while quick attack is for some low hp situations.

Second! Accelgor learns many good utility moves, and can use them with a good purpose in some other not very popular sets. These moves include Guard Split! Which can be used against tanks to make Accelgor surprisingly bulky! Another move is Yawn, which is a great move in itself, It pressures a switch, or makes the opponnet stay in for a sleep. Another move he can use well is baton pass! He can baton pass so it doesnt get pursuit trapped, and it can even pass an Acid Armor! Very niche but worth mentioning! Lastly for creative moves he can use Venoshock on a spike stacking team... Lead with a toxic spikes setter like Dragalge, Nidoqueen, or Forretress, switch out, and start Venoshocking for some insane damage!

Thirdly and Lastly! We have a move that I have used a couple of times on Accelgor... and that is Me First! This only works if the pokemon is faster and who is faster than Accelgor? Me First can be used in very niche moments to KO the opponett with their own move! Such as a draco metoer Salamence or shadow ball Azelf! Who knows!

Thank you for taking the time to read this INSANELY long post, as it shows my passion for Accelgor and how good of a mon it is(and underrated). Phew, that did take a while lol. I hope you loved my entry into the Viability Rankings and I hope you agree with my statement about ACCELGOR TO C RANK!!!!!!

Thank you so much! ~LRXC

 
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Okay, I have previously done some really bad posts on Machamp and Vaporeon (When I just started smogon) So this is technically my first actual post for Viability Ranking! Today I will be discussing my opinions and reasoning to have Accelgor enter C-rank! I hope you enjoy reading this! Lets Begin!!!!



ACCELGOR FOR C RANK!!!

Okay, In my opinion, Accelgor is heavily underused and should be used more often, as a spikes lead, and a great fast special attacker.



Lets take a look as these base stats. Okay, Accelgor is obviously really frail, which is why it is almost always ran with a focus sash. But its Special Attack and Speed are very good especially its speed. Which outspeeds the entire UU metagame except Mega Aerodactyl. Since Accelgor plays more of a supportive role, it basically has a prankster ability! Because no one outspeeds it, and allows Accelgor to do a number of things, including set up spikes(Most notable purpose), Potentially take out a mon with Final Gambit for a guaranteed OHKO, maybe put up a rain dance, or something else. This gives Accelgor a great lead spot on any team. Accelgor usually runs spike support with encore and other support moves which is very effective. With a focus sash, It is almost guaranteed to get 2 layers of spikes up, a big help to your team. Now, Accelgor obviously faces stiff competition with Froslass as a spiker. I will admit, Froslass is probably a better spiker for most teams, but that doesnt mean Accelgor doesnt deserve to be unranked, as it has some advantages over Froslass as a spiker....



Okay here I will be going over some of the pros and cons of using Accelgor as a lead spiker over Froslass
. Here we go. For one! Accelgor has a much higher speed than Froslass, meaning it can set up spikes more efficiently, and almost guarantee one layer. This massive speed stat also gives Accelgor another advantage over Froslass as it is much less likely to get TAUNTED. Taunt shuts Froslass down, and it happens a lot, because it is outsped by common taunters, such as Mega Houndoom
(Probably not a lead but still), Aerodactyl
, Crobat
, Azelf
, Tornadus
(By 1 point lol), and even Taunt Whimsicott
. That is a lot of outspeeds. Azelf is such a common lead as it is, and Accelgors Bug Buzz can take it out easily, or bring it down to its sash. Another advantage with Accelgor over Froslass is its special attack, allowing it do still deal a good amount of damage with taunt, or with magic bounce pokemon... Bug Buzz is super effective against Espeon
and OHKO it, if you run full special Accelgor as a lead (Without Final Gambit) 252 SpA Accelgor Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 258-306 (95.2 - 112.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
N
ow, Froslass is admittively a better lead spiker, due to it having a great ability in Cursed Body, having destiny bond, and usually also carrying taunt. It also blocks rapid spin, a huge counter to accelgor, but that is why it is smart to carry a good spin blocker with Accelgor such as Chandelure, with by the way has great synergy with Accelgor.



Lastly, I want to look at some viable sets for Accelgor and some niches and such it has in the current metagame for UU.

Of course he mostly runs the common spikes lead set, which in itself is very effective.
Accelgor @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Final Gambit/Focus Blast
- Encore
- Bug Buzz


This is the standard set, and it works very effectively. Accelgor will almost always get spikes up, and then can either final gambit the opponett for a suicude OHKO, or maybe encore the opponett into setting up hazards, or getting some good damage off with Bug Buzz. It is a very nice set. You can even run Focus Blast over Final Gambit for more coverage and damage ouutput, if you did that you would then want to go max special attack and possibly modest depending on your teams needs. This set also utilizes his Unburden ability, which makes him even faster! Literally outspeeding almost every single mon, except maybe Agility Mega Aerodactyl (Which you will never see haha).... Not much else to say as the set is self explanitory.

Another set Accelgor uses VERY well is his Offensive set, with life orb, or even specs if you got gonads.

Accelgor @ Life Orb/ Specs (If you got balls haha)
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature or Modest Nature.
- Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power Ground/ Hidden Power Fire
- Focus Blast
- Giga Drain/ Sludge Bomb


This is one of my favorite sets, as it catches foes off guard, and can really do some nice wallbreaking as well. This set really does hit hard and always has momentum going with it with an amazing 145 base speed stat and a respectable base 100 special attack. These moves have almost PERFECT coverage. Bug Buzz is its main stab and it a great move overall, it allows for a possible Sp.Def drop, and bypasses substitutes, making some threats' substitutes useless. Focus Blast is for some insane damage output and to hit those pesky steel and rock types which resist bug, as well hitting ice, dark, and normal types very well too. Giga drain can be used for some health back, and can be used against some counters like Swampert
and Jellicent
(Who walls Accelgor's movepool). Sludge Bomb can be used over giga drain for some more damage and a nice poison chance, but also for coverage against fairies, who resist Bug and Fighting. This is why Sludge bomb is usually better. Lastly, we have Hp Ground. This is mainly for rock and steel types and notably Doublade
, which resists all stabs like a boss. Hp Fire can be used for Forretress
, who you will be commonly seeing as a lead against you, which ca be really beneficial, and hp fire is for more coverage and for Trevenant
, which all moves are nuetral or dont affect it. Onto the last viable set, and the one that a pretty nice niche.

Rain Dance lead Accelgor.

Accelgor @ Damp Rock
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rain Dance
- Spikes
- Encore/U-turn
- Bug Buzz


Rain dance lead Accelgor is the only mon in UU that can effectively set up rain and spikes, and is used well on offensive Rain teams. Now, Tornadus and Azelf have their own roles on rain dance leads, and do very well in that respect, but Accelgor is obviously the best Rain Dance Spikes lead. This set is great in that is also utilizes his most unused ability, Hydration, which means it can get rid of a paralysis, which cripples Accelgor, or even get rid of a Toxic if they want to break your sash. Encore is for the added utility and trapping of foes giving your rain team some needed momentum, or U-turn for some momentum. Even though Accelgor aint physical, it can still do some decent damage with stab. This is a very good utility mon for rain teams, and can actually deserves a spot on rain teams!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Okay, now that I am dome with that, I want to point out some other niches and moves Accelgor can use well, or nichely in some situations.

First! Accelgor weak to priority? It can learn Quick Attack and Feint, Feint can be used for a niche moment against Beedrill, while quick attack is for some low hp situations.

Second! Accelgor learns many good utility moves, and can use them with a good purpose in some other not very popular sets. These moves include Guard Split! Which can be used against tanks to make Accelgor surprisingly bulky! Another move is Yawn, which is a great move in itself, It pressures a switch, or makes the opponet stay in for a sleep. Another move he can use well is baton pass! He can baton pass so it doesnt get pursuit trapped, and it can even pass an Acid Armor! Very niche but worth mentioning! Lastly for creative moves he can use Venoshock on a spike stacking team... Lead with a toxic spikes setter like Dragalge, Nidoqueen, or Forretress, switch out, and start Venoshocking for some insane damage!

Thirdly and Lastly! we have a move that I have used a couple of times on Accelgor... and that is Me First! This only works if the pokemon is faster and who is faster than Accelgor? Me First can be used in very niche moments to KO the opponett with their own move! Such as a draco metoer Salamence or shadow ball Azelf! Who knows!

Thank you for taking the time to read this INSANELY long post, as it shows my passion for Accelgor and how good of a mon it is. Phew, that did take a while lol. I hope you loved my entry into the Viability Rankings and I hope you agree with my statement about ACCELGOR TO C RANK!!!!!!

Thank you so much! ~LRXC

I could kind of see this in C rank, but not entirely. Only one of the sets you listed holds any definite niche in UU right now, but I'll still go through everything.

Suicide Lead

(That animation isn't her idle, its her laughing at thinking Accelgor does her job as well as she does)

Honestly, Frosslass is pretty much the lord of suicide lead, and just about 100% outdoes Accelgor. While a bit slower, Lass can be played well enough to get off at least a layer of spikes and take down something regardless of matchup. Cursed Body is an amazing ability to work with as well, having the same chance as Scald(aka 100%) to Disable, causing mons against it to potentially lose a valuable STAB, or get forced into Struggle if Choiced(fun fact: Struggle hits Ghosts...).

As for Accelgor in this situation, it can also easily get up a layer or two without issue. But the chance to take something with you is FAR lower. The problem being is that Final Gambit works off your current HP, and barring people just sending in a hazard setter like Forretress, they're probably just going to hit you and break your Sash. You can always just straight up Final Gambit turn 1 if they send in a real threat vs you, but now you've give up your hazard setter without a single layer.

Offensive

Long time back I used LO Accelgor in RU. Its got a good movepool and that workable SpA. But there was sort of a reason it worked at that point...

Yanmega was BL2.

Again, Accelgor faces a HUGE hurdle to overcome. Yanmega's power is already well known, with LO Speed Boost being an incredible late game sweeper, and Specs Tinted Lens cutting holes into teams almost regardless of the type in vs it(barring 4x resists, obviously). While Accelgor may have a few more coverage options, Yanmega doesn't really need anything other than Giga, which even then doesn't need to be used that often. Also, I personally wouldn't suggest using Sticky Hold, as it may keep your item, but it also allows Knock Off to do full damage every time because of it.

Rain Setter

Alright, this would potentially be the set that would push it into C rank. But even here it faces some stiff competition. And while it does have the niche of running Rain + Spikes, it's not the greatest of niches.

You already covered some of its competition, but they still are reasons for contention. Tornadus is obviously the main setter in UU, it just works amazingly on Rain, thanks to Prankster Dance and STAB Hurricane. Azelf not only brings Rain + Rocks, a fair competition for Spikes, but also provides some great power thanks to its SpA and movepool. Additionally, you forgot about Liepard, who can also provide great utility and holds that lovely Prankster ability, albeit without any form of hazards.

Even after all that, you need to consider the fact that you're using such a frail setter with no safety net. Damp Rock forces it to abandon Focus Sash, meaning you risk not getting up Rain or Spikes.

As for your last few points, I'll go over them quick:

1) Feint/Quick Attack are terrible options. Not only are you giving up useful moveslots, you're doing 0 damage behind an uninvested 70 Atk. Maybe you'll catch a low HP MBee by surprise, but it really isn't worth giving it a place in your set.

2) Again, everything here requires you to give up better utility.

3) Me First is a great move, I've used it a few times. Fun always ensues. It just has a couple small flaws. Your opponent has to use an actual attack first, status and setup moves won't be copied. Even then, most mons won't be using a mon they're weak to, and even if they are, the attack will be going off your stats. So any physical move will do pitiful damage.

I guess there's merit in the C rank as the Rain Setter, but I honestly don't think it's enough. Otherwise Marill would be C rank as well.
 

LRXC

ADV 1v1 Pioneer
is a Community Contributor
I could kind of see this in C rank, but not entirely. Only one of the sets you listed holds any definite niche in UU right now, but I'll still go through everything.

Suicide Lead

(That animation isn't her idle, its her laughing at thinking Accelgor does her job as well as she does)

Honestly, Frosslass is pretty much the lord of suicide lead, and just about 100% outdoes Accelgor. While a bit slower, Lass can be played well enough to get off at least a layer of spikes and take down something regardless of matchup. Cursed Body is an amazing ability to work with as well, having the same chance as Scald(aka 100%) to Disable, causing mons against it to potentially lose a valuable STAB, or get forced into Struggle if Choiced(fun fact: Struggle hits Ghosts...).

As for Accelgor in this situation, it can also easily get up a layer or two without issue. But the chance to take something with you is FAR lower. The problem being is that Final Gambit works off your current HP, and barring people just sending in a hazard setter like Forretress, they're probably just going to hit you and break your Sash. You can always just straight up Final Gambit turn 1 if they send in a real threat vs you, but now you've give up your hazard setter without a single layer.

Offensive

Long time back I used LO Accelgor in RU. Its got a good movepool and that workable SpA. But there was sort of a reason it worked at that point...

Yanmega was BL2.

Again, Accelgor faces a HUGE hurdle to overcome. Yanmega's power is already well known, with LO Speed Boost being an incredible late game sweeper, and Specs Tinted Lens cutting holes into teams almost regardless of the type in vs it(barring 4x resists, obviously). While Accelgor may have a few more coverage options, Yanmega doesn't really need anything other than Giga, which even then doesn't need to be used that often. Also, I personally wouldn't suggest using Sticky Hold, as it may keep your item, but it also allows Knock Off to do full damage every time because of it.

Rain Setter

Alright, this would potentially be the set that would push it into C rank. But even here it faces some stiff competition. And while it does have the niche of running Rain + Spikes, it's not the greatest of niches.

You already covered some of its competition, but they still are reasons for contention. Tornadus is obviously the main setter in UU, it just works amazingly on Rain, thanks to Prankster Dance and STAB Hurricane. Azelf not only brings Rain + Rocks, a fair competition for Spikes, but also provides some great power thanks to its SpA and movepool. Additionally, you forgot about Liepard, who can also provide great utility and holds that lovely Prankster ability, albeit without any form of hazards.

Even after all that, you need to consider the fact that you're using such a frail setter with no safety net. Damp Rock forces it to abandon Focus Sash, meaning you risk not getting up Rain or Spikes.

As for your last few points, I'll go over them quick:

1) Feint/Quick Attack are terrible options. Not only are you giving up useful moveslots, you're doing 0 damage behind an uninvested 70 Atk. Maybe you'll catch a low HP MBee by surprise, but it really isn't worth giving it a place in your set.

2) Again, everything here requires you to give up better utility.

3) Me First is a great move, I've used it a few times. Fun always ensues. It just has a couple small flaws. Your opponent has to use an actual attack first, status and setup moves won't be copied. Even then, most mons won't be using a mon they're weak to, and even if they are, the attack will be going off your stats. So any physical move will do pitiful damage.

I guess there's merit in the C rank as the Rain Setter, but I honestly don't think it's enough. Otherwise Marill would be C rank as well.
Thank you for replying on my very first Viability post! I agree with most everything you said and I will take in account on what you said. Also, I said Feint and Quick attack are niche options that should probably never be used, It was just worth mentioning. Also, I dont agree that Froslas "100%" Outdoes Accelgor, because like I said, it is very vulnerable to taunt; I would say it maybe 60-70% outdoes it as a lead, because Accelgor also brings more power and check common leads easier than Froslass. Lastly, Froslass lead is pretty inevidable when you see it on someones team, because it can only run that one and only set, Accelgor bring a LITTLE surprise factor to it in that it can run 2-3 sets viably.

Thank you very much for your counterpost! =)
 
You forgot to talk about Stealth Rock, which imo should be on every Clefairy set. It have plenty of time to setup rocks since Clefairy forces many switch ins. I also used Healing Wish as a filler option over Thunder Wave or Encore, which works effectively since I think Clefairy can take any non-SE attack right before healing. Encore is nice trait for Clefa that takes ppl out of guard, but after your opp knows what you are running, Clefairy low speed over Whimiscott's Prankster makes difference.

I've used it over UU ladder sometimes but I have never tried to really build around it, so I'm not sure if it should be ranked or not. It's pretty hard to fit her into a team over any other fairy, unless you need something like a Hydreigon check that can also setup rocks.
 

Shadestep

volition immanent
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
You forgot to talk about Stealth Rock, which imo should be on every Clefairy set. It have plenty of time to setup rocks since Clefairy forces many switch ins. I also used Healing Wish as a filler option over Thunder Wave or Encore, which works effectively since I think Clefairy can take any non-SE attack right before healing. Encore is nice trait for Clefa that takes ppl out of guard, but after your opp knows what you are running, Clefairy low speed over Whimiscott's Prankster makes difference.

I've used it over UU ladder sometimes but I have never tried to really build around it, so I'm not sure if it should be ranked or not. It's pretty hard to fit her into a team over any other fairy, unless you need something like a Hydreigon check that can also setup rocks.
ah yes, the infamous Stealth Rock. you have a very good point, I did overlook SR as a viable option. it is indeed a good option, however my touch on Clefairy was more of an anti-setup mon. SR just didn't really fit in the role of Clef, but it can certainly work on other sets as it gets up rocks easily on mons that are locked in and Hydreigon (even though Moonblast isnt even a guaranteed OHKO lol).
 

Sam

i say it's all just wind in sails
is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
OK I'll leave the posts standing because you guys probably put a lot of effort in to them and it's something to learn from BUT

the viability rankings aren't lectures and you really, really don't need to be so didactic when making posts. When it comes to making nominations, especially on mons that are already pretty niche to begin with, you don't need to list every possible thing they can do. For the Accelgor post above, it literally could have been condensed to

"I've been using Accelgor for a bit and I think it might fit in C-rank. It's mostly outclassed by Froslass but it has a few things going for it like higher speed to avoid being taunted by some faster mons."

and that's it. Again, I know you probably spent a ton of time on the post and that's great but in the viability rankings should be more focused on being concise and to the point. Take some time and think about what's actually important with the mon you're nomming and why it's important.

I'd also like to point out that just because something is usable doesn't necessarily mean it has a great niche. I've won games using Assault Vest Corsola, but I don't think Corsola should be put in C-rank because it's the best Assault Vest Mirror Coat user.
 

LRXC

ADV 1v1 Pioneer
is a Community Contributor
Okay, Sorry then Sam, I wont be so detailed and I guess lengthy on my posts.... :/ wont happen again, and also Cynthia's Chomp I think that was a great post! But I am not sure if I agree on Clefairy to C rank... I am kind of in the middle on that one.....

Again, really sorry Sam, I will next time be more concise and to the point, rather than trying to make the post look all good and stuff :)
 
Id like to nominate Poliwrath to B-



I feel like Poliwrath is actually pretty cool. Dont get me wrong id say its still pretty niche but I think it has a good enough niche to separate it from C mons and move it up to B-

It counters Suicune and Gatr. Literally hard counters Gatr. Both of which are S mons and pretty popular. On top of that it serves as a really nice check to many A+/A mons. (Ill list some even though I know im not supposed to post a lot.)

Checks -
Mega Beedrill
Cobalion
Entei
Krookodile
Mamoswine
Mega Swampert
Doublade
Heracross
Mega Shark
Snorlax
Infernape

So yeah thats a pretty impressive list in my opinion. And before everyone nit picks me to death I know some of those mons can 2hko with some moves but thats why I said check not counter.

Poliwrath also gets scald and circle throw to avoid it being set up on/spread status. RestTalk for recovery. Poliwrath is a good stall mon and deserves to be moved up from C -> B-

(Sorry Sam if this was too long, Just trying to make a case for it :])
 

LRXC

ADV 1v1 Pioneer
is a Community Contributor
Id like to nominate Poliwrath to B-



I feel like Poliwrath is actually pretty cool. Dont get me wrong id say its still pretty niche but I think it has a good enough niche to separate it from C mons and move it up to B-

It counters Suicune and Gatr. Literally hard counters Gatr. Both of which are S mons and pretty popular. On top of that it serves as a really nice check to many A+/A mons. (Ill list some even though I know im not supposed to post a lot.)

Checks -
Mega Beedrill
Cobalion
Entei
Krookodile
Mamoswine
Mega Swampert
Doublade
Heracross
Mega Shark
Snorlax
Infernape

So yeah thats a pretty impressive list in my opinion. And before everyone nit picks me to death I know some of those mons can 2hko with some moves but thats why I said check not counter.

Poliwrath also gets scald and circle throw to avoid it being set up on/spread status. RestTalk for recovery. Poliwrath is a good stall mon and deserves to be moved up from C -> B-

(Sorry Sam if this was too long, Just trying to make a case for it :])
Honestly, In my opinion, Poliwrath is way to niche to be B-, it just isnt good enough, and doesnt exactly (check) all of the pokemon listed. Poliwrath has no really good fighting stab physical move, and is taken down relatively easily as well. It can be easily worked around. I think C is a great place to but Poliwrath, but it isnt good enough for B-, It is NU for a reason... =)
 
Id like to nominate Poliwrath to B-



I feel like Poliwrath is actually pretty cool. Dont get me wrong id say its still pretty niche but I think it has a good enough niche to separate it from C mons and move it up to B-

It counters Suicune and Gatr. Literally hard counters Gatr. Both of which are S mons and pretty popular. On top of that it serves as a really nice check to many A+/A mons. (Ill list some even though I know im not supposed to post a lot.)

Checks -
Mega Beedrill
Cobalion
Entei
Krookodile
Mamoswine
Mega Swampert
Doublade
Heracross
Mega Shark
Snorlax
Infernape

So yeah thats a pretty impressive list in my opinion. And before everyone nit picks me to death I know some of those mons can 2hko with some moves but thats why I said check not counter.

Poliwrath also gets scald and circle throw to avoid it being set up on/spread status. RestTalk for recovery. Poliwrath is a good stall mon and deserves to be moved up from C -> B-

(Sorry Sam if this was too long, Just trying to make a case for it :])
After doing half of the write up for this mon's future UU analysis, I definitely support this, as its ability to be able to check a ton of physical attackers goes nearly unmatched even among bulky waters, as it is one of the very few full counters to gatr, Mega Sharp, Mega Swamp, Entei and Cobalion without being turned into set-up fodder by any of them is unmatched bar roar cune. One key point about it is that it can force out most potential switch-ins with the only fighting type move it ever needs LittleRunnerXC being circle throw, which is also a nice way to get chip damage on opponents lacking recovery, which is especially nice for attackers who tend to get worn down rather quickly like Mega Bee, Entei, and Krook. In my opinion, I'd rather use it on a stall or balance team much over Vaporeon or Milotic, as it has the ability to check way more threats and has some (albeit little) offensive presence. So I definitely support a rise to B-
 
I really don't see why one would use Poliwrath in the bulky Water-type teamslot with all the competition around it. I guess some overclassed mons, such as Vap or Milotic, have some little but interesting niches that would justify their use, but you gotta show me where Poliwrath's niche is. I mean, why would you use it over Suicune ? It has that useful Dark resistance, Water Absorb and stab Circle Throw, but that's all. If you want a Fera/Sharpedo check, Suicune does it almost as well, and it doesn't get 2HKO'd by stuff like Beedrill or Band Krook. It also handles common Pokemons such as Crobat, Aerodactyl, Florges, Cresselia, more easily.

I'm not a Poliwrath player so I may be wrong, but in my opinion there's nothing that justify Poliwrath's rise to B-.
 

Sacri'

the end is here
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I really don't see why one would use Poliwrath in the bulky Water-type teamslot with all the competition around it. I guess some overclassed mons, such as Vap or Milotic, have some little but interesting niches that would justify their use, but you gotta show me where Poliwrath's niche is. I mean, why would you use it over Suicune ? It has that useful Dark resistance, Water Absorb and stab Circle Throw, but that's all. If you want a Fera/Sharpedo check, Suicune does it almost as well, and it doesn't get 2HKO'd by stuff like Beedrill or Band Krook. It also handles common Pokemons such as Crobat, Aerodactyl, Florges, Cresselia, more easily.

I'm not a Poliwrath player so I may be wrong, but in my opinion there's nothing that justify Poliwrath's rise to B-.
Suicune relies on Scald burn to counter gatr, Poliwrath doesnt and thats enough to give it a little niche. I dont think it should be B- but its niche does exist.
 
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I'd have to agree with Aquadext that Suicune does most of Poliwrath's job better. Even if you don't consider Suicune, this tier is still crowded with bulky Water-types that all make pretty good choices for a team, like Mega Blastoise, Empoleon, Swampert, Jellicent, Slowking, and Alomomola. I'm not going to sit here and deny that Poliwrath is almost a surefire check to Feraligatr and Mega Sharpedo, but I'm also not going to advocate for its usage most of the time. Poliwrath is a cool 'mon, but when other Water-types can do the same stuff that it can (and sometimes more), it really starts to seem more niche. Honestly, there are more splashable checks to Gatr, Mega Shark, and even Cune (Whimsicott says hello), so it is hard at times to make a case for using Poliwrath on most teams. I do think that it's good enough for C, but B- might be a bit of a stretch.
 
Id like to nominate Poliwrath to B-



I feel like Poliwrath is actually pretty cool. Dont get me wrong id say its still pretty niche but I think it has a good enough niche to separate it from C mons and move it up to B-

It counters Suicune and Gatr. Literally hard counters Gatr. Both of which are S mons and pretty popular. On top of that it serves as a really nice check to many A+/A mons. (Ill list some even though I know im not supposed to post a lot.)

Checks -
Mega Beedrill
Cobalion
Entei
Krookodile
Mamoswine
Mega Swampert
Doublade
Heracross
Mega Shark
Snorlax
Infernape

So yeah thats a pretty impressive list in my opinion. And before everyone nit picks me to death I know some of those mons can 2hko with some moves but thats why I said check not counter.

Poliwrath also gets scald and circle throw to avoid it being set up on/spread status. RestTalk for recovery. Poliwrath is a good stall mon and deserves to be moved up from C -> B-

(Sorry Sam if this was too long, Just trying to make a case for it :])
I would agree with this rise but the problem is that suicune exist which gives poliwrath stiff competion poliwrath fine where it is imo
 
Why are people mentioning suicune alongside poliwrath... I get that they're both waters but c'mon poliwrath's niche overlaps with shit like heliolisk and toxifrog, (and to a lesser extent guts users like heracross) I get that wrath offers role compression with its water typing but the total lack of up front offensive presence leaves it as a niche gluemon for stall, where it still competes with mon's with reliable recovery like gastrodon.

C rank is fine, Usable and it can be pretty damn good at glueing together the right team, but situations where wrath is the best team choice are exceptionally rare this gen even on full passive stall.

Edit: Swampert is always good, the issue is it has heavy overlap with no less than 10 other pokemon all of whom are at least equally good. It's A- soley because it's the archetypal bulky rocker/monoweakness tank and has the most cores built around it because "muh mudkipz" but there is almost never a situation where swampert is the best gluemon. A- is fine.

Edit again: Yeah accelgor for C makes sense
 
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Having used poliwrath to ladder for some uu project thing that stopped or something, i am very on the fence
most of its pros and cons have already been said, but one little pro it does have is its resistance to rocks, and when there's a lot of switching the extra chip damage on suicune adds up.
IT ALSO GETS ENCORE TO NOT LOSE TO LAST MON SET UPS
Poliwrath's typing also lets it be a pretty decent m-blastoise check unless its running aura sphere or dragon pulse whereas pretty sure rest talk roar suicune (which everyone is comparing it to) gets bopped
 
I'm nominating Torterra from Unranked to C or higher

[EDIT] Image deleted

Talking about NU mon, this badass deserve a niche in UU metagame. As his typing is not the best defensive one ever with great weakness to Flying, Fire, or specially Ice, it gets a Ground Resist and electric inmunnity, along 95/105/85 defenses, which is fine. But the most important thing about this is the Dual STAB it gets can destroy nearly all Defensive Pokemon on the metagame, being able to run SD, Rock Polish, Double Dance set, CB or even a bulky attacker set with SR and Synthesis.

I was playing to get some replays and show its power, but I think this one replay is enough

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-284674316

252+ Atk Life Orb Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 413-486 (78 - 91.8%)

Yes, that was max HP max Def. Bold Alolomola. This mon has 56% chance to OHKO Suicune after SR. And that's not even the CB set. This is a monster. I'm nominating to C because it's an unranked mon, but I feel it could reach B quite easily. This can be one of the best anti-meta mons right now, and it deserves to be ranked
 
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freezai

Live for the Applause
is a Tiering Contributor
The problem with Torterra is that Tangrowth just does it better. Tangrowth has more physical bulk and has way more options that are not actually mediocre (looking at you rock polish Torterra) Just becase something can do something doesn't mean it should. Listing double dance Torterra as an option is comparable to saying Automotize Doublade can be used. Tangrowth, along with better bulk, has a recoil less stab in Power whip more coverage with its sd sets and can run special sets as well. Tangrowth also has arguably one of the best abilities in the game in Regenerator. Furthermore, with ice shard flying around everywhere with Mega-Abomasnow and Mamoswine, Torterra will struggle to get going while performing any role, physically defensive or offensive. The only fathomable reason you would ever use it instead of tangrowth was if you desperately wanted an electric Immunity. We can't just put anything that moves into C rank because it has that one tiny thing that supposedly makes it viable even though there's a mon that outclasses it by a 99%.
 

LRXC

ADV 1v1 Pioneer
is a Community Contributor
I'm nominating Torterra from Unranked to C or higher



Talking about NU mon, this badass deserve a niche in UU metagame. As his typing is not the best defensive one ever with great weakness to Flying, Fire, or specially Ice, it gets a Ground Resist and electric inmunnity, along 95/105/85 defenses, which is fine. But the most important thing about this is the Dual STAB it gets can destroy nearly all Defensive Pokemon on the metagame, being able to run SD, Rock Polish, Double Dance set, CB or even a bulky attacker set with SR and Synthesis.

I was playing to get some replays and show its power, but I think this one replay is enough

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-284674316

252+ Atk Life Orb Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 413-486 (78 - 91.8%)

Yes, that was max HP max Def. Bold Alolomola. This mon has 56% chance to OHKO Suicune after SR. And that's not even the CB set. This is a monster. I'm nominating to C because it's an unranked mon, but I feel it could reach B quite easily. This can be one of the best anti-meta mons right now, and it deserves to be ranked
I have to agree with everything Rattled Snakes said, Tangrowth really does outclass it. I think Torterra shouldn't really make C rank, it doesnt really have much of a niche, maybe the niche is his horrilble defensive typing, becuase like Snakes said, Ice shard is a big threat, coming form Mamo, Abomasnow, and also Donphan. Torterra also doesnt have much coverage, and with a WoodHammer Life Orb set it is worn down relatively easy. Sure, it can hit Almomola and Suicune pretty hard, but Suicune can hit it hard back, especially the offensive set with Ice Beam... It was a nice post overall and I like the effort, but I really dont think this NU mon Torterra should reach C rank. (Also I wouldn't post to big of a picture, a smaller picture could get the idea across) The picture is quite cool though, but like I said, resize it. That is why Torterra should not be moved to C rank, and definetly not higher than C rank as you proposed.

Hope you take my anti-post reasonings into account! ~LRXC
 

r0ady

People like to invent monsters and monstrosities
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Taking a step away from this sudden NU hype, I'd like to nom Tornadus for A-

Tornadus is mon that was normally only seen on rain offense as with sableye gone it has become the best rain setter in the tier with access taunt, prankster dance, and grass knot to deter rock setters. However Recently I've begun to experiment with the mon and try new sets not seen to often. The main 2 sets i would like to discuss are mixed life orb and bulk up, 2 sets i think easily propel it into the A's.

Life orb

Sporting impressive offensive stats in 115 attack and 125 special attack, while also sporting an incredible offensive movepool in hurricane, grass knot, superpower, focus blast, knock off, heat wave, u-turn, and sludge wave, leaving its switch ins mind bogglingly limited. Hurricane + Superpower alone 2hkos everything bar calm florges, snorlax, P2 only if it has its eviolite, cress, and aerodactyl. Having access to knock off only adds to this mon as it lets it rid mons of leftovers and eviolites, while coverage options such as grass knot and heat wave let it deal with things like coba and swampert more easily. As devastating to balance as 4 attacks is 3 attacks prankster with tailwind is perfectly good versus offense to bring in a wallbreaker after sacking torn. Here are some calcs just to prove my points:

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 156-185 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Life Orb Tornadus Superpower vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 278-330 (74.9 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Tornadus Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 458-541 (70.2 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 136-161 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Tornadus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 129-152 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

theres more but the point is this thing is fucking terrifying to switch into.

Bulk Up

A set that found itself in the spotlight for about a week then died again, ive always had a special love for bulk up torn. The ability to priority bulk up on physical attackers then rest up on them with chesto/sleep talk is horridly unappreciated. With a lack of electric types in the tier (heliolisk is 2hkod by acro so its not a switch in 92 Atk Tornadus Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 122-144 (46 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, and as rotom c doesn't resist isn't a solid switch either 92 Atk Tornadus Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-C: 136-162 (56.4 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock) torn can find itself a massive threat right out of the gate, able to outright 6-0 teams without either an electric type or a steel type with roar. I figured this set would do better with replays so here's one from open with me versus kush http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-86463

and heres a link to a post by Yifeng with a ton of replays showing it off
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...he-uu-metagame-v2.3541641/page-2#post-6352622

Torn is an amazing pokemon for offense that threatens most balance teams and offense alike thanks to its great speed tier and access to impeccable coverage (and lack of flying resists most teams seem to have as of late). While it also has the ability to act as a strong win con that can sweep unprepared teams.


 
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