ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

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General Thread Rules:
  • Post intelligently. Random posts saying things like "X should be x rank" without context or supporting evidence isn't gonna fly here.
  • Be civil when debating with other users. Any flaming will not be tolerated.
  • Please do not bring up ban/suspect discussions in this thread. Any and all possible upcoming tier-policy decisions will be brought up from the leaders themselves, and it won't be done in this thread.
  • Usage stats and replays are good to support your arguments, but avoid basing your entire argument around them. Make sure the replays are of good matches, from high ladder or UPL / SPL. It's hard to take a bottom of the ladder replay seriously when discussing a Pokemon's viability.
  • Nomination posts should include where in the sub-rank the Pokemon will place after the move. This is important to maintain an accurate sorting by viability list.
The Pokemon in the sub-ranks are fully ordered by viability, rather than alphabetical order. D rank is an exception.

Nominations will be run by our Viability Council before being accepted into the rankings. They may also make their own nominations or movements, but these will come with explanations. The current members of the Viability Council are:

Hack (Tier Leader)
Fireburn (Tier Leader)
Nayrz (Moderator)
Level 56

The Ascendant

Mega Rayquaza
Too powerful for Ubers and therefore banned to Anything Goes, Mega Rayquaza now sits as the only Pokemon that is not usable in any official Smogon singles metagame.

S Rank



A Rank



B Rank




C Rank



D Rank

Blacklisted from discussion

Some of you might remember this as the "Chansey Rank" of the old thread. This is simply a list of Pokemon that should be avoided when discussing in this thread, with some small explanations as to why.
  • Mega Latios/Mega Latias - Soul Dew is released in ORAS and is allowed in the Ubers tier, and provides better stats to Latios and Latias than their respective Mega Evolutions.
  • Golduck may be able to hit Primal Groudon with Water moves through Desolate Land, but comes with far too many downsides to be worthy of a teamslot on any Ubers team. Trying to revenge kill Primal Groudon just results in a free switch to many possible teammates, and it cannot switch in at all. This is more of a meme than a viable Pokemon.
  • Mandibuzz's ability to learn Defog is not enough to prevent it from being completely outclassed by Yveltal.
  • Any Pokemon that has been rejected for an analysis - Pokemon that are not Uber by tiering must pass for an analysis by the Ubers QC Team in the respective sub-forum before being ranked on this tiering list. Those that have been rejected are blacklisted from discussion.
If you have read all the rules and the above list, feel free to discuss the list and possible changes with the community!
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Alright, there are a LOT of changes as you can probably see. A couple were moved due to criteria changes (looking at you, Mega Mawile) but the rest of them were discussed on IRC with the help of dice and Fireburn before the thread was posted. The full changelog (some written by dice and are noted as such) with explanations is here:

Latios & Latias: A+ >>>> S- Rank

Despite the ubiquity of bulky steel-types, Lati@s still maintain a top spot in the metagame. In fact, the rationale for having steels on almost all bulky/balanced teams is because of the presence of these Pokemon. They are actually quite diverse, being able to stallbreak effectively with Calm Mind and even cheese teams with Healing Wish or Memento. And, of course, the ubiquitous Defog set gives several teams a way to use an offensive Arceus-Forme. With moves like Hidden Power Fire, Lati@s can effectively circumvent certain checks and counters, and being able to check both Primal Pokemon fairly well, they are very splashable in several teams. Modest Lati@s hit extremely hard, and very well can break even the most well built of teams. - dice

Arceus-Ghost: A+ >>>> S- Rank

Arceus-Ghost is still the best non-Normal Arceus Forme. The resurgence of Lati@s gives it another Pokemon to check, not to forget that it also is an effectively counter measure to several other Psychic-types in the tier. Checking non-Refresh Arceus-Normal (or using Focus Blast) is also a major boon. Also, Arceus-Ghost is one of the few Arceus-Formes which cannot be threatened by Wobbuffet's presence. Swords Dance Arceus-Ghost is also a very underrated and threatening Offensive Sweeper. It is actually quite diverse, and you can't know which set it is running when its sent out; Swords Dance and Calm Mind have very different sets of checks and counters. This Pokemon is most definitely deserving of S-. - dice

Primal Kyogre: A+ >>>> S- Rank

If a Primal Kyogre switches into your Primal Groudon, you know something bad is going to happen. This Pokemon can overpower even Lati@s and effectively as a check to Primal Groudon with a physically defensive set and CM Arceus with a specially defensive set. It has quite a few tools in its kit, and this Pokemon is vastly underrated next to Primal Groudon. Although you have to be careful about Groudon coming into it, Primal Kyogre can tear apart teams with meticulous play and smart teambuilding. - dice

Klefki: A >>>> A+ Rank

Klefki is, quite simply, the best Spike-user and most splashable Steel-type in the metagame. Being able to threaten common Defog-users such as Lati@s and Giratina-O, and having access to Toxic for Defensive Arceus make Klefki a reliable hazard-setter. Although Diancie and Sableye may not be the most fun opponents to face, the fact that Klefki is a catch-all check and counter to Darkrai, Xerneas, Yvetal, and Lati@s, just to name a few, cements this Pokemon in A+. - dice

Mega Gengar: S- >>>> A+ Rank

Shadow Tag is most definitely a major threat in the metagame, Gengar's major downfall arises in its major opportunity cost to Salamence, comparatively speaking. Being a worse check to Arceus-Normal and lacking the offensive prowess that Salamence provides, Gengar has to be on a team which can take advantage of the specialization Gengar provides. Quite simply, Gengar is simply overshadowed by Salamence in 8.5/10 teams, making it have to drop. - dice

Arceus-Ground: A- >>>> A Rank

Arceus-Ground is the only Arceus-Forme which reliably checks Primal Groudon. This is reason enough to move it up to A-Rank. - dice

Arceus-Dark: A+ >>>> A Rank

Arceus-Dark's best niche is as a stallbreaker which sadly is almost nonexistent in the metagame. On balance as a CM Arceus-Ghost answer, Ho-Oh (and Yveltal to an extent) is far more splashable, while on Stall, Blissey and Kyogre are the go-to answers. This Pokemon, of course, has a unique niche in also providing a Mewtwo check, but from anecdotal experience, this metagame is just not suited for Arceus-Dark as well as the above Arceus-Formes. It's still fantastic for sure, but lacks the luster that Ghost and Normal have. - dice

Yveltal: A+ >>>> A Rank

While Yveltal has undoubtedly strong attacks, its far too easily checked by Fairy-types to be worthy of A+ rank. Teams that Yveltal fit on usually use the Phys Def set, and even that falls flat to many physical threats to be very useful.

Arceus-Water: B+ >>>> A- Rank

It's one of the few Arceus-Formes that can check Salamence. Also, Arceus-Water matches up somewhat well against Kyogre and is a cockblock to Ho-Oh. Primal Groudon can't stop this Pokemon when it's neutral to Ground-STAB and can Toxic. The common Stealth Rock set loses to this Pokemon 1v1. - dice

Deoxys-S: B+ >>>> A- Rank

Still as useful as a hazards lead as ever, and has the movepool to get around Magic Bouncers and Defog users if needed. Its very difficult to stop Deoxys-S doing its job, and not many teams have ways to anti-lead it.

Groudon: B+ >>>> A- Rank

Groudon is the most viable Primal Groudon check that can effectively set Stealth Rock. It also provides other boons as well-- the permanent Sun gives Ho-Oh free reign which not even Primal Groudon can provide. Also, it can also run an item like Lum Berry to lead against even Darkrai and still ensure Stealth Rock. On most teams, Primal Groudon is the best option, but Regular Groudon is most certainly a viable option to look out for. Primal Kyogre's seemingly underused status as of now makes this Pokemon even more viable. - dice

Ferrothorn: B+ >>>> A- Rank

Serves as a great blanket check to a number of threats, and is generally annoying with Leech Seed and Spikes.

Mega Sableye: B+ >>>> A- Rank

Magic Bounce is an extremely strong ability, and Sableye makes fantastic use of it. With a typing only weak to Fairy, Sableye can is hardly ever OHKO'd allowing it to annoy even the worst of matchups. Its typing also effectively allows Sableye to be fantastic switches to Mewtwo and Arceus-Normal, two major threats in the metagame. Foul Play also dissuades set up on this Pokemon. Due to Magic Bounce making Taunt unnecessary, Sableye's last move slot is flexible as well-- Sucker Punch, Toxic, Knock Off, and even Metal Burst are viable choices. This Pokemon is a fantastic answer to Suicide Spikes and has a strong defensive niche. - dice

Wobbuffet: B >>>> A- Rank

Much like Forretress below, this Pokemon also gained viability with the introduction of Custap Berry. It can defensive check Mewtwo on offensive teams, and give the most dangerous set up sweepers in the tier like Salamence and Primal Groudon a free turn of set up. Its team supporting capabilities makes it a godsend on more offensively inclined squads, and is quite dangerous against many matchups. Its presence against certain Pokemon simply dissuades the opponent from sending them out, giving the Wobbuffet user an inherent advantage from the team preview. - dice

Tyranitar: B+ >>>> A- Rank

As seen by its usage in SPL, this Pokemon is actually quite legit in ORAS. Although Primal Groudon is a thorn in its side, the ability to Pursuit-trap the omnipresent Lati@s and check Salamence with Shuca Berry give Tyranitar a unique niche. With Excadrill being able to hit Groudon super effectively, Sand as a playstyle actually gained viability. - dice

Forretress: C >>>> B+ Rank

Forretress is the go-to suicide Spiker with the introduction of Custap Berry with its access to both Toxic Spikes and Spikes and ability to 'Defog-Block' with Explosion. It also matches up well against the standard Deoxys-S set. With its Sand immunity, it is more reliable than the other suicide Spike leads and deserves a move up. - dice

Excadrill: B >>>> B+ Rank

As mentioned above, Excadrill's ability to hit Primal Groudon effectively made sand a more viable playstyle. Additionally, the ability to check Lati@s, Xerneas, and other fastmons allow Excadrill to pose a threat to Offensive teams which run rampant in the metagame. - dice

Skarmory: B >>>> B+ Rank

A nifty Salamence check and Spike user, Skarmory found its beak in the spotlight yet again. Although Lati@s can sometimes cheese even Specially Defensive sets with Calm Mind or Hidden Power Fire, its still a pretty reliable Pokemon with its ability to check most Physical attackers and phaze. It even can OHKO Diancie with Iron Head making it a more reliable Spike user than even Klefki.
It is, however, a free switch in to many threatening Pokemon like Primal Groudon and Kyogre which is why it's ranked much lower than its Fairy comrade. - dice

Mega Scizor: A- >>>> B Rank

It can't Defog on the most common Stealth Rock user. It can check Lati@s and Arceus-Normal still, but a free switch-in to Primal Groudon makes it a mediocre option on most teams. - dice

Mega Aerodactyl: C+ >>>> B Rank

As a Stealth Rock user for offensive teams which checks Ho-Oh, Salamence, and Arceus-Normal, it has a valuable niche. Additionally, it outspeeds all Arceus formes and thus Lati@s which allows it to keep Stealth Rock up. The newborn ForreAero core manifests the power of this Pokemon. -dice

Mega Blaziken: B+ >>>> B Rank

The new ORAS mons appear to have driven Blaziken into obscurity, and its not hard to understand why. Blaziken's STABs are easily resisted by common threats in Salamence, Ho-Oh, Giratina-O and the Latis. Blaze can still run coverage to hit them however, and its ability to act as a pseudo scarf mon in a slow metagame can work for some teams, its just that compared to XY Blaziken, it has fallen a long way.

Arceus-Grass: C+ >>>> B Rank

If Primal Kyogre goes up in viability, so do its checks. Arceus-Grass is no exception. Its ability to counter Groundceus is also a big bonus, and Grass Knot still hits Groudon for heavy damage.

Gliscor: B+ >>>> B- Rank

With Primal Groudon able to run special sets, Gliscor runs out of things to check, and is harder to justify on a team.

Palkia: B+ >>>> B Rank

Palkia's offensive abilities have not changed, but the lack of a defensive niche really lets it down.

Mega Metagross: C+ >>>> B- Rank

"basically its an offensive lati/xern check that doesnt give fires free switchins" - fireburn

Landorus-T: B >>>> B- Rank

Same reasons as Gliscor, really.

Mega Kangaskhan: B+ >>>> B- Rank

Kangaskhan's matchup vs HO is still very good, and it can heavily pressure teams with Spikes up. Its problem is that outside of the HO matchup, it doesnt have much else going for it.

Arceus-Electric: C >>>> C+ Rank

If Iceceus moves up, its only right that Eleceus does as well. Eleceus can still soft check birds, but the weakness to Primal Groudon and the non-STAB Ice Beam still hurts it from going any higher.

Arceus-Ice: C >>>> C+ Rank

With Ice being a great STAB in the current meta, and its ability to check Yveltal + Mence means its only right that it moves up.

Arceus-Flying: C- >>>> C Rank

Flying Arceus isnt the worst Pokemon out there, as Flying STAB is proving to be very good in this meta (see: ray, mence). It may be hard to justify over either of the two previously mentioned, but it can still work as a "Special Salamence" in very niche situations, and is also bulkier than Salamence in exchange for some resists and the lack of a mega stone.

Hippowdon: C >>>> Unranked (rejected for analysis)

Smeargle: C >>>> Unranked

Sticky Webs is an unviable playstyle, and Smashpass is as gimmicky as ever. See ya!

Ditto: C+ >>>> C-

Does well versus HO and general setup mons, but is more of a band-aid for lazy teams than a viable Pokemon.

Mega Slowbro: C >>>> C-

A fairly niche mon that has trouble checking Salamence even with 180 Defense. Still checks Primal Groudon however.

Tentacruel: C+ >>>> C-

Primal Groudon exists. Need i say more?

Mega Mawile: C- >>>> D Rank

I have no idea why anyone would ever use this.

that's all folks!

Current points of discussion are:
Gliscor - Should it move down further?
Arceus-Ice - Should it move up to B- ?
Mega Slowbro - is it viable? should it move to unranked?
Reshiram - D rank material or not?

Bear in mind discussion is not only limited to the above highlighted points! There were a lot of changes in the transition of threads, so discussion on all of those is encouraged too.
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is a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Ubers Leader
Mawile does have a few niches that should keep it out of D, it's an offensive check to Xerneas, Yveltal, Mewtwo, and the mono-attacking CM Arceus-Dark and Rocks, with stealth rocks as a nice option for some teams that desperately need a stealth rock setter who beats the latis who dont want to use tyranitar.

Also, I disagree with Klefki to A+. Yes all of those positives exist, however it is something Groudon will switch in on a lot, alongside Ho-oh, and cant do much back other than toxic them. It has very little offensive presence at all, and A feels more fitting for it.

Finally, Mega Mewtwo X is underrated I feel, and should move up to A- in my opinion. It still hits very hard, its checks are fewer in number in comparison to XY due to the decline of some arceus forms, will-o-wisp being less prominent, and it's decent match up vs the stuff oras brought, as Sableye was the only thing introduced that can check it (groudon and salamence are 2hkod, kyogre can be OHKOd after stealth rocks depending on investment and diancie loses to earthquake mmx).


I'm jus Here for da memes r wateva dem shits called
i think we should get rid of s sub-rank (s+, s-) the idea of it is silly to me. also i think we should focus on cleansing the S rank as a whole, ie dropping latis, ghostceus or whatever. ill prob make a better post when im not playing league :p

f fireburn

Thugly Duckling

I play TCG now
Gengar in A+ lel. The mon is guaranteed a kill every match, if that doesn't scream S Rank idk what is.

e: To elaborate this post, here are some more opinions.

Arceus ghost: Definitely needs to go back to A+ or A. One way or another, teams will have a way to CT this mon and render it useless. The support/CM wisp sets suck as Ekiller checks especially with Refresh becoming a popular set, and is just a Ho-Oh magnet unless it's running Stone Edge (a useless move if your opponent does not even have a Ho-Oh). SD is OK, it compliments Toxic spikes well, but, the mere presence of Yveltal deters usage. The set has two viable variants, which is admirable, however. Plus, stall has next to no answer to this thing aside from having an awkward defensive Yveltal slapped somewhere. Changing sets between SD and special only circumvents one check (Ho-Oh), which is unfortunate, so; it's checks and counters can't really be changed. Still a solid Lati@s, Mewtwo, and Khan check, and the best spin blocker in the game, of course.

Ho-Oh: This has been argued to hell in the last thread, and I stand by its ranking. Only reason it isn't just S ranks is stealth rock weakness and the fact it sucks vs. physical spam teams and HO teams.

Primal Kyogre: I didn't think this would get to S, but I'm glad it did. I posted briefly in the last thread on why it should be S rank, but I'll restate some points anyways. It defines the meta; forces teams to run secondary checks alongside PDon; 6-0s teams that do not run secondary checks; can run various amounts of sets to change its functionality (defensive RestTalk, CM, all out attacker); and damn hard to switch into. In hindsight, PDon+Latias/other secondary check seem like an issue; but in actuality, speed is the only problem.

Latias and Latios: The best defoggers in the game, potent offensive pivots, blanket checks plenty of top-tier threats, AND they offer unique team support in Healing Wish/memento, respectively. They can sweep with CM, Defog, or wallbreak/lure with certain coverage moves, such as HP fire. Two amazing mons that glue teams together like no other can, and are very hard to pin-down unless you're using Pursuit Tyranitar or Aegislash. S Rank without question.

Klefki: A+, hell no. Can't do anything at all to Ho-Oh and Pdon except maybe a ballsy Toxic; it's even set up bait to Arceus in some situations. It's terrible check to Salamence because the possibility of Refresh, and Block GeoXern is simply hilarious to this mon. Priority Twave and Spikes is still a great asset to certain offensive teams in need of hazards and an emergency check to something, albeit an unreliable blanket check. Safeguard is a great set, btw. Drop to A-.

Arceus Dark: This mon has gotten substantially worse since the start of ORAS. It simply cannot break stall anymore because Clefable, and has a terrible matchup vs Offense because it lacks the power to stop your opponent's mons from setting up. Dead weight vs. both offense and stall, balance has Ho-Oh who just gets in on this thing and nukes with BB/Sacred Fire. Still one of, if not the, best Lati@s check, and still a decent M2 check; however, the latter is unfortunate because MM2X is arguably the better form of the three M2s, which Darkceus cannot check for shit obv. Hack's perish trapper set is good, it needs some recognition imo. Drop to A- or even B+.

Arceus-Ground: It's fantastic. The only viable set is SD imo, but people will persist to use CM on balance or terribad Defog on stall. +2 EQs smash this tier to bits, and nothing can really stop it besides a stupid scarf Yveltal or an intact Multiscale Lugia. It struggles vs. Lava Plume Groudon which is unfortunate, but it checks the other sets exceptionally well. Aside from Pdon, it checks some other notable threats such as Klefki, Dialga, Ho-Oh (with the SD set), Diancie, and Rockceus, which is nice. Sucks that Mega Mence checks SD so well, but it's easy to solve this issue with teammates such as Skarmory, or a bulky fairy. Move up to A+.

Arceus-Rock: I think this should stay where it is, but I'm surprised that SD has not become a thing yet. It's the one Arceus form that can bypass SD Arceus's typical counters, such as Giratina-O, Yveltal, Mega Salamence, and Lugia. +2 STAB Stone Edges are monstrous—indeed innaccurate—but potent, nonetheless. SD would be a substantially worse check to Ho-Oh in fear of Sacred Fire burns; but, with Recover, the variant still works as a decent bird move switch in.

Ferrothorn: Terrible mon. A free switch into Ho-Oh and PDon, and has the SPL loss rate to prove it's shittiness. I guess it checks Kyogre; my ass, +1 Origin pulse 2HKOes. HP Fire Lati@s is damn good and it completely mauls this guy, a supposed check. Drop to B- at most, maybe even C.


I'll chime in on more stuff as it comes along.
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Nayrz Results being D rank worthy was something brought up and I posted about it

Reshiram doesn't face competition just from kyu-w. It also has to compete with palkia who had a better typing as no rock weakness or a ground weakness and palkia has a better speed tier in 100 which is rather nice in ubers outpacing the crowded 90-99. Another thing it has to compete with is lati@s which again have better defensive synergy a better speed tier and not sr weak. So yeah drop it to D rank.
Someone else also summed it up why it should be D so here
Reshiram should be moved down to D-Rank. It loses to everything in S and A+ Rank thanks to its combination of an SR weakness, terrible defensive-typing and poor speed. Its typing in particular is extremely awful because it doesn't have the benefits of either its Fire or Dragon typing (no Fairy and water resistance for example) while also inheriting the weaknesses of both (Ground Weakness, Dragon Weakness, SR weakness, etc.). Its an ineffective Scarf user due to it's STAB moves having a multitude of switch-ins in the current metagame and normal offensive sets suffer from having virtually no switch-in opportunities, a predictable moveset, and a SR weakness. Only reason this mon shouldn't move down to d-rank is that it doesn't have the insane amount of opportunity cost that the current D-Rank mons do, but that's it.
Gliscor - Should it move down further?
Further where? I don't even see it ._.

In all honesty I think the S rank right now is perfectly fine and it's exactly the stuff I would like to see so props to those that helped with that.

Can someone explain to me in which situations even warrant a regular Kyogre these days? I haven't seen a single one used in SPL or even in general, maybe cause I missed it idk, as most people will either just use Primal Kyogre or accept the fact it has an extremely hard time in coping with the meta and Pdon around. Usage doesn't equate to viability but sooner or later somethings got to give with the realization it's nowhere to be found. I guess you can use the logic in that it far exceeds that of the B- rank so it's there based on just the placement of others at this point. A good explanation, one that doesn't exaggerate non-existent points would be nice.

Gliscor and Lando-T are set up fodder for the majority of offensive threats right now in the meta if we're talking about all the dominant ones you'll see on offense but the better question is instead of thinking "they got worse" is are they on par with that of the B- rank or the C+ ones primarily. You'd think this question would be a given but it's actually a concept that people overlook a TON like the comments above me advocating for certain changes to go back to a certain rank when it's quite critical to accuracy.

Ok dices explanation on Arceus Dark I think is really valid but it seems like with all that being said, he's advocating for even a further drop than where it is now. If you care and see this dice it would be nice to see some reasoning why or why not you wouldn't drop it down further. "Arceus-Dark's best niche is as a stallbreaker which sadly is almost nonexistent in the metagame" is the cue that something is gonna end up dropping two sub-ranks anyways.
I think Arceus-Dragon should drop a subrank or two, since it is to ubers what Haxorus is to OU: the resident jack-of-all-trades and master of none mono-dragon type.
Being an Arceus forme it has a massive opportunity cost and I don't see any reason to use it for any specific role when the plethora of dragons available in Ubers outclass it in a way or another. In my opinion it's somewhere between Arceus-Fighting and Arceus-Fire/Bug in terms of viability, so either C- rank or D is where it belongs.

Mega Mawile should be moved up instead. I recall seeing somewhere a nice Baton Pass set that could be used to gain momentum against the predictable Primal Groudon switch-ins. Its opportunity cost is high but it does have an incredible offensive and defensive type and acceptable bulk. It certainly doesn't belong in the same rank as Deoxys-N. I think C rank is more fitting.
Thugly Duckling

i disagree with your premise on arceus-ghost. in fact, swords dance circumvents darkrai checking it as well as hazards and a +2 espeed can kill it. furthermore, the two best checks for arceus-ghost are in fact stealth rock weak, not to mention that yveltal hardly saw much usage in spl. it's just such a threatening sweeper with a fantastic typing. just because literally two common pokemon wall (spdef ogre, blissey?) it doesn't mean it should not be s-. skarmory and lugia wall most salamence, so should it not be s?

klefki is something i'm pretty cemented on as well. it's just the ideal spikes user with its typing. if anything, block xerneas is just a gimmicky cheese set, so i don't really consider that while contemplating klefki's viability. groudon and ho-oh switch into klefki, yes, but the fact that it can just check SO MUCH with priority thunder wave, toxic, and access to spikes.... i find it hard to believe you want to place it on par with, say, dialga.

i can agree with possibly b+ ferrothorn -- the spl win rate shouldn't speak for the mon as whole, it's still a great secondary kyogre check, lati@s check, xerneas check, zekrom check, and stall staple.

can also agree with a+ arceus-ground and a- arceus-dark
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Mega Gengar
should stay A+. It just simply isn't as effective as it was in the XY metagame and suffers from a massive opportunity cost. Yes, it has the combination of 130 Speed and Destiny Bond, but boosting sweepers can easily bypass it (think Mega Salamence, RP Primal Groudon, other DDers) and Destiny Bond can be played around. If it goes for the Taunt, the opponent might as well directly go for the kill because it's so fucking frail. Keep Mega Gengar in A+.

should go up to A. I made a post about the dragon a while ago on the old thread, but it got buried under other discussion. Anyway, Rayquaza is a great wallbreaker in Ubers and has only become better in ORAS thanks to its signature move Dragon Ascent. This move has a coveted Flying-type, which means it's barely resisted in the tier and is a 180-BP move coming off of 150 Attack. Be that neutral or positive, Rayquaza's Dragon Ascent hurts and has nearly no safe switch-ins. Let's not forget that its best offensive partner, Mega Salamence, is at the pinnacle of the metagame and these two form one of the best offensive cores in Ubers. Rayquaza gets Extreme Speed for priority (especially useful on Swords Dance sets) and only needs Earthquake for further coverage. It was already A- in XY, but it has improved in ORAS and its ranking should reflect said improvement. Raise Rayquaza to A.


Who let marco in here????
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Unpopular opinions time!:

Lugia to A-
. This mon is just meh IMO. Big wall that puts out almost zero offensive pressure since all it can really do is phaze and toxic stuff. At least things like Ferro and Klefki can Spikes which can put out heavy pressure. It does wall most of the metagame's strongest threats though and that alone makes it worth something, and fares well vs offense, but it's inability to touch anything immune to Toxic (Gengar, key, Ferro, RestTalkers), and its reliance on hazards to actually hurt stuff means it's usually nothing more than a nuisance. It also just dies to anything with Toxic.

Arc-Ground to A+: Not only does it check PDon it's also legitimately a pain to stop since its main predator, Scarf Ogre, is no longer viable. Can be handled by more obscure answers such as Skymin, Skarmory, and Grassceus, but most things in A and S gets chunked pretty hard from it.

Lati@s to A+: Strong and versatile Pokemon and is one of he best backup answers to POgre available. That said its Pursuit weakness is nasty and its moveslots make it hard to cover up its checks. Out of Defog CM DM Recover Psyshock which ones are you willing to replace with GK/HP Fire?

Darkceus to A- is fine. Worth noting that Bold Darkceus can get past Ho-Oh and it's still one of the few reliable Ghostceus checks in the game however.

Regular Groudon to B+
: Opportunity cost is extremely high since it disables PDon use. Only fits on certain teams and can still run into issues vs Lava Plume PDon which can 2HKO (nothing wrong with Sassy Groudon w/ Speed Creep xD). Still a good mon and sun support is powerful at times, especially against slower-paced teams.

Salamence to S- it's a crippled mega rayquaza that has no business dominating the metagame and is kinda overrated


Numquam Vincar
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also can we remove tentacruel and ditto plz lol they aren't viable
Ditto passed through QC and is finished, Tenta currently sits at 2/3 checks (but can still be rejected). Granted both these analyses received their checks early in the ORAS meta so they may need to be re-evaluated, but until that time they need to remain on the list.
Not actually about mons but can s rank be renamed to a rank, a rank to b rank, c to d, e to f. Yeah it's kinda superficial but "S" rank is supposed to signify exceptions, stuff so incredible it is above the customary letter of A. atm, there are 9 Pokemon in S rank. So many that the rank has had to be divided. This is contradictory to what S is supposed to imply. As a bonus, shit like deo N ends up in "F" rank which is normally associated with failure. seems pretty fitting to me.

Also, I'm glad to see there's no poll.
I feel like mega mewtwo Y should be ranked lower than regular mewtwo bc mmy requires a mega slot while function mostly the same, and hence a greater opp. cost. Just my two cents tho.

EDIT: also i think we should take a look at replay such as these


Before using spl usage as prime argument for viabilty ranking lol.
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Thugly Duckling

I play TCG now

I didn't take Darkrai into account as a circumvented check between SD and CM/support because; ideally, Darkrai in fact is defeated by +2 Espeed and hazards; but in actuality, Darkrai is non existent in the late game scenario—when Arceus-Ghost will be sweeping. With this reasoning, is why I found it irrelevant. But you've pointed out to me that the typing it has for a sweeper is just excellent, and, Blissey as well as Ogre are two mons very easy to wear down/eliminate with hazards and prior damage (because the two must always check several threats, and get overwhelmed). You forgot to mention Ho-Oh as a check to the CM set, but +1 judgment actually does quite a bit, and in account of Ho-Oh's 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, Arceus Ghost can bypass it with little prior damage. It's checks are, as pointed out: Arceus Dark, Yveltal, Darkrai, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Wallceus, and Blissey—and only 3 of these mons can blanket check it; and in itself, is a really short C&C list. With all of this said, this mon sounds amazing now, but I still think it should warrant some discussion from other users before putting it's rank into cement.

In regards to Klefki, I have hardly any good things to say. Every time this mon is sent out to set up spikes or status something, matches are jeopardized. So, say, you go for the para on a boosted GeoXern; but, your opponent sends out Groudon to absorb the para. In this particular situation, you are either going to be swept by RP, worn down by phazing+hazards, or simply killed should you stay in for what I called "ballsy toxic", opening up holes for something like Mega Salamence. What I dislike greatly about it as well is how many issues stall/some balance pose to it; Mega Sableye both burns and deflects spikes being set (Again, safeguard, good move people :^), and Arceus Ground, stall's most common defogger atm, threatens with an OHKO from judgment AND clears away Klefki's hazards. But you make a point when said that it is LOADS better than the other A ranks as it stands right now, so keeping it in A+ is fine. This mon seems to get plenty of support through both UPL and SPL usage, so I see no point in me arguing against its effectiveness any longer. It isn't the no-brainer mon like Darkrai is, it takes some precaution to use properly, but it is the go-to mon for teams in need of hazards and a blanket check to half the tier lol.

Going to second Jibaku on A- Lugia and B+ non-Primal Groudon.
Ok so from what im seeing here, the commonly wanted changes are:
Arceus-Ground to A+
Arceus-Dark to A-
Ferrothorn to B+
Lugia to A-
Groudon to B+
Reshiram to D

Then there is the stuff thats been brought up but not discussed much
Kyogre dropping to ?
Lati@s to A+
Alomomola has just passed QC, where should it be placed in rank?

And a complete restructuring of the ranks... Melee Mewtwo Im struggling to understand how you expect this to work as just simply dropping every rank an extra letter and leaving only Groudon, Xerneas and Salamence as "S Rank" leaves you with weird stuff like Deoxys-A and Excadrill being C rank, which also leads to me probably rewriting the criteria and then it changes the perception of where mons are currently placed (we just changed the position of like half the entire thread) which in comparison to our previous threads just looks completely strange. When i completely redone the thread i also redone the criteria so that having 9 mons in S is actually fine (all of this thread went past Fireburn first), and to be honest i don't see anything wrong with having multiple S rank users and subranks - they are far above the other tiers, and those in S have considerable gaps between each other. Unless you have a way to make this not look odd (and have positions for every mon in the ranks) i dont think this is possible.

I'll be taking the most commonly wanted changes and applying them every Monday (if the mods are in agreement).


I'm jus Here for da memes r wateva dem shits called
i'd just drop s- and s+ then keep only like pdon mence and xern in S rank and drop the rest. structure A+ as you would with s-, ie moving latis there, ghostceus etc. then move the current a+ mons down to a, etc. though you could keep some mons like darkrai and mgar a+
i'd just drop s- and s+ then keep only like pdon mence and xern in S rank and drop the rest. structure A+ as you would with s-, ie moving latis there, ghostceus etc. then move the current a+ mons down to a, etc. though you could keep some mons like darkrai and mgar a+
The problem is, Mega Salamence and Xerneas are surefire meta definers, but Primal Groudon's downright absurd splashability and versatility make it even more meta-defining. If you want to drop S-, fine by me, but Primal Groudon should definitely stay S+.

Also completely agreeing with Nayrz about the S-Rank stratification. I really wonder, why would a number of Pokémon in S matter if they all define the meta in one way or another? As I see it, A+ is for Pokémon that are excellent, but clearly not meta-defining. S-Rank globally has metagame-defining Pokémon in there. Sounds kinda strange to have Primal Groudon in the same rank as Mega Salamence and Xerneas, even while those two are far above the A+ Pokémon. I really see no issue with the divided S-Rank and would like to see it stay divided. Again: so fucking what if there are 9 Pokémon in there? If they all define the meta to some degree, then they should be S.


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I feel like the current S-Rank is representative of the metagame so it should remain like that

I'd put Momo in C+, we can then discuss adjusting. Sweep is the main proponent of this mon so he can say stuff if he wants

Groundceus to A+ and Ferro/regular Don to B+ is fine by me

Regular Kyogre fits well in C+ rank based on the description - the only set worth using over Primal Kyogre is Scarf and it has a lot of obstacles in its path for it to be able to do anything (PDon, Lati, other water resists)
Tentacruel rly does nothing atm, sucks to PDon, Arceus Ground and almost any other relevant threat, also while TS aren't bad I think Forretress / Scolipede / Cloyster are just better at setting up them (although you aren't going to use Tentacruel as a suicide lead like the mons I mentioned), the presence of PDon also means you can't use anymore regular Kyogre so Tentacruel can't use Rain Dish as recovery way. If it was somewhat viable in XY, now it's completely garbage.

Ditto is also only good against HO teams, but does nothing against more balanced buildings. Maybe that's a niche to consider but no way it's higher than D rank imo
Update time! (its monday in my timezone) Keep in mind all changes go by Fireburn or Sweep before being placed.

Change List:<br />
<br />
Arceus-Dark: A to A-
Arceus-Ground: A to A+
Ferrothorn: A- to B+
Groudon: A- to B+
Reshiram: C+ to D
Alomomola to C+
Kyogre: B to C+

The Eternal Debate

Latios/Latias: S- or A+?

Not Changed (but can be discussed more):<br />
<br />
Mawile-Mega: (wanted from D to C-) Mawile seems very hard to justify over Klefki - It also loses (HORRIBLY) to Primal Groudon but takes up a mega slot (biggest downside here) and can be unreliable as a check to stuff like Xerneas (any chip damage = rip)
Lugia: (wanted from A to A-) Its the only thing that is really keeping stall somewhat viable due to the sheer amount of stuff it can check.


Tentacruel - Rejected for analysis
Slowbro-Mega - If this wasn't a mega it might have a small niche but as of now it doesn't do enough to warrant being in the rankings. A case can always be made for it though.
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