Lower Tiers ORAS NU Role Compendium

Is there a reason Pyroar isn't under Wallbreakers? Specs is capable of dishing out serious damage. It could probably also be added to Stallbreakers thanks to the cheeky Taunt set. Vanilluxe can probably be added to priority users since Ice Shard is a fairly used option on offensive sets. Vanilluxe could probably be added to Wallbreakers too as it's perfectly viable without Autotomize.
 
Leavanny doesn't efficiently counter sun, if at all. Just because it runs sash and has chlorophyll(does it?) doesn't qualify it as a sun counter, maybe a sun abuser.
You are doing it wrong. I used it in Gen V already, and in Gen VI it gained the Knock Off buff, like many things.

Leavanny @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- X-Scissor
- Knock Off
- Synthesis / Sticky Web

If you use this well, Sun will have a serious problem.

However, on the ladder it is an auto-win against many sun users because they switch in their Fire-types (tip: don't).... Pyroar is 2HKO'd by any move and you outspeed thanks to their own sun, and Magmortar cannot switch into Knock Off.
 
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Kiyo

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but sun plays like hyper offense so they dont switch fire types in. theres like 3-4 grass types per sun team, and half of them leavanny cant hit s/e with x scissor. also that set might be good if sun was even popular, you mean to tell me you'd actually run leavanny without webs? i dont see how thats productive in the slightest.

tl;dr that set isnt good, nor should it beat any competent player using a sun team.
 
I indeed believe it is much less effective in tournaments than it is on the ladder. Even when not facing Sun, however, you still have a very solid check to Malamar and most Water-, Psychic- and Ground-types in the tier. Oddly enough not so much Grass-types.

Also, Victreebel takes 80% from X-Scissor (set your hazards!), Sawsbuck, Shiftry and Exeggutor are OHKO'd and outsped (Sun = Adamant Sawsbuck), Leafeon takes 70% or more depending on the set, and Fire-types are crippled by it and OHKO'd if you can set enough hazards. Jumpluff is a problem for Leavanny but I have never seen it being used on sun. Torkoal and Regirock, as well as Prankster-Twave, are also problems. However, Regirock can't take Leaf Storm from the SW set so it won't really switch in (or will lead, in which case it will be hopefully weakened sufficiently for Leavanny to finish it).
The SW set is junk once the game progresses, and with all the defoggers there's little reason to even try.

But as I said at the beginning of this post, I believe Leavanny is more destructive on the ladder than in tournaments, because people don't prepare for it, don't even know what the f*ck it is going to do (esp if they see the Life Orb recoil or me using Synthesis after I scared something out), and because I generally save it for later in the match to clean up, or to let a teammate clean up.
 
Some other stuff:
- Linoone needs to be added to other sweepers and priority users
- Archeops could be added to momentum and wallbreakers since it's strong, has a legit CB set, and can viably run U-turn
- Swellow can be added to wallbreakers due to its strong physical and special sets
- Volbeat could maybe be added to weather setters since it's been seeing some use
- Mesprit can be added to defensive stealth rock users since people have been using defensive Mesprit to replace Uxie
 
I indeed believe it is much less effective in tournaments than it is on the ladder. Even when not facing Sun, however, you still have a very solid check to Malamar and most Water-, Psychic- and Ground-types in the tier. Oddly enough not so much Grass-types.

Also, Victreebel takes 80% from X-Scissor (set your hazards!), Sawsbuck, Shiftry and Exeggutor are OHKO'd and outsped (Sun = Adamant Sawsbuck), Leafeon takes 70% or more depending on the set, and Fire-types are crippled by it and OHKO'd if you can set enough hazards. Jumpluff is a problem for Leavanny but I have never seen it being used on sun. Torkoal and Regirock, as well as Prankster-Twave, are also problems. However, Regirock can't take Leaf Storm from the SW set so it won't really switch in (or will lead, in which case it will be hopefully weakened sufficiently for Leavanny to finish it).
The SW set is junk once the game progresses, and with all the defoggers there's little reason to even try.

But as I said at the beginning of this post, I believe Leavanny is more destructive on the ladder than in tournaments, because people don't prepare for it, don't even know what the f*ck it is going to do (esp if they see the Life Orb recoil or me using Synthesis after I scared something out), and because I generally save it for later in the match to clean up, or to let a teammate clean up.
Even if it had a good matchup against sun which I'm not convinced it does without tons of support, why would I carry it when sun it barely relevant enough to prepare for. Its completely useless against any good team or player and gets outclassed by any other physical grass, so I dont see why someone would be so paranoid over sun that they would need to run this.
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-262630400

Not a good example of good plays (that Aromatherapy!), or decent teambuilding even, far from it, but a solid example of someone having a team that is fairly weak to Leavanny - and choice-locking in a move that can't even scratch it.

And yes, I am a noob, and I always will be. Which is why I run various nicknames with noob in it, and this is far from the biggest junk team I've used with this alt (for reference: I playtested Pikachu with it, amongst other things).
 
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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-262630400

Not a good example of good plays, or decent teambuilding even, far from it, but a solid example of someone having a team that is fairly weak to Leavanny.
And yes, I am a noob, and I always will be. Which is why I run various nicknames with noob in it, and this is far from the biggest junk team I've used with this alt (for reference: I playtested Pikachu with it, amongst other things).
Im sorry, but i think v1ctorr has played like 10 nu matches since coming from pu. This doesn't really prove anything. He also lets his check get burned early game, and the other one killed by special rotter. Not to mention that he stays in on leavanny choice-locked into eq. This is just showing that leavanny needs extensive team support ergo why it's outclassed by mons like cacturne, shiftry, ludicolo, and leavanny. Because looking at his team, he's weak to nearly every high tier mon: Sawk; Tauros; MixCheops; SD Rotter; opposing kangas etc... This replay ultimately just showcases why leavanny is a terribly outclassed pokemon, and should only be used for some taunt magic coat webs lead set
 
Kanga isn't even a check to Leavanny unless at perfect health as it causes a mess of 50/50s with Sucker Punch mindgames since Leaf Blade deals more than you would like. If it takes one serious hit of any sort, it can no longer check Leavanny. Not only Will-O-Wisp but even Mismagius' Thunderbolt would have rendered it incapable of doing so.
Also, if you are not worried about Sun, you can run Swarm...

Btw, normally the gameplay plan is to lure Vileplume with Sawk and hit it with an Ice Punch or two so Leavanny can break past (or the other way around).

At any rate, now you are making the same mistake many do; you look at only one of Leavanny's typings - Grass in this case, which you never should when looking at a dual-type. Every dual-type with a rare typing has a niche, by definition.
Leavanny shares its typing with Parasect and Wormadam-G, but on normal teams Leavanny outclasses both - outside of RainRoom in Doubles that is because that is where Parasect can shine.
And yes, I believe any mon with a rare typing has a niche and will never be outclassed. There is always a team it perfectly melds in to, and there will always be players that have a much easier time teambuilding when using these mons.
Ofcourse, this is assuming you don't double-up obviously; you won't use Leavanny if you already are carrying Gourgeist, for example, as while they are different, the things they chcek are remarkably similar.

For me, those mons are things like Leavanny and Poliwrath. Sure, they are outclassed, but they allow me to easen my worries about several threats I would otherwise be weak to in teambuilding by virtue of their typing and/or ability. And yes, you are allowed to take that to its logical extreme; if you can teambuild easier because you have a Dedenne at your team I won't look at you as if you were insane (though I will certainly wonder (and ask) why.
 
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Punchshroom

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Why is Rampardos in Weather setters? Is that a thing? Also Pyroar should definitely be in Wallbreakers; it's only in Sun abusers section right now @_@

Leavanny checks Malamar, Psychic- as well as Water-types. Fighting-types too, but it should never be your only Fighting check.
It counters Sun if you're looking for that, too.
Leavanny neither possesses the defensive presence (actually resisting Psychic) nor the appropriate offensive presence (Scyther and Pinsir have far greater "punishing potential") to be considered an adequate Psychic check compared to, say, a freaking Butterfree. I already doubt Leavanny's competency as a Water check given its poor longevity, but literally the only situation Leavanny can switch into a Fighting-type and beat it is if Sawk uses Close Combat (and does not have protection from Sturdy), making it an extremely shaky response against all the other Fightings.

You are doing it wrong. I used it in Gen V already, and in Gen VI it gained the Knock Off buff, like many things.

Leavanny @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Attack / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- X-Scissor
- Knock Off
- Synthesis / Sticky Web

If you use this well, Sun will have a serious problem.

However, on the ladder it is an auto-win against many sun users because they switch in their Fire-types (tip: don't).... Pyroar is 2HKO'd by any move and you outspeed thanks to their own sun, and Magmortar cannot switch into Knock Off.
I wouldn't be so quick to jump the gun on pointing out others being wrong if I were you. As far as I am concerned there is literally no reason to use Leavanny as a physical sweeper over the likes of Sawsbuck or Leafeon, which are faster and more efficient attackers. If you want Bug moves so badly you could always try Megahorn Sawsbuck, and Sawsbuck has the benefit of powerful Normal STAB. There's also the fact that both Sawsbuck and Leafeon have access to Natural Gift, which is a very important advantage as those two basically have an additional coverage move that Leavanny does not. Scyther and Pinsir are also superior offensive Bug-types due to their stronger neutral coverage, while Scyther has bulk, Speed, and Roost on its side while Pinsir has great neutral coverage and Mold Breaker to bypass Quagsire without the need for Grass STAB. The team in that replay you've shown succumbs to Sawsbuck and Natural Gift Leafeon all the same; more importantly they'd do it better since Sawsbuck's healing and Leafeon's physical bulk would allow them to shrug off Kangaskhan's priority much better than Leavanny.

At any rate, now you are making the same mistake many do; you look at only one of Leavanny's typings - Grass in this case, which you never should when looking at a dual-type. Every dual-type with a rare typing has a niche, by definition.
Leavanny shares its typing with Parasect and Wormadam-G, but on normal teams Leavanny outclasses both - outside of RainRoom in Doubles that is because that is where Parasect can shine.
And yes, I believe any mon with a rare typing has a niche and will never be outclassed. There is always a team it perfectly melds in to, and there will always be players that have a much easier time teambuilding when using these mons.
Ofcourse, this is assuming you don't double-up obviously; you won't use Leavanny if you already are carrying Gourgeist, for example, as while they are different, the things they check are remarkably similar.

For me, those mons are things like Leavanny and Poliwrath. Sure, they are outclassed, but they allow me to easen my worries about several threats I would otherwise be weak to in teambuilding by virtue of their typing and/or ability. And yes, you are allowed to take that to its logical extreme; if you can teambuild easier because you have a Dedenne at your team I won't look at you as if you were insane (though I will certainly wonder (and ask) why.
Sharing typing means basically nothing; you'd sooner compare your offensive Leavanny to Sawsbuck and Leafeon than those two super irrelevant Bugs. Also Leavanny and Gourgeist checking the same things wat

I'll just say this: if you've managed to beat opponents with Leavanny, the opponent likely isn't prepared for fast Grass-types in general, so it usually isn't to Levanny's credit rather than the opponent failing to take into account the more dangerous Grass-types (and Bug-types) in the tier. Like if someone manages to break someone down with Heatmor, people won't say that "Heatmor is good" so much as they would say "man that guy's team is really Fire weak; something like Magmortar / Pyroar / Ninetales would destroy him". Even then, with Shiftry being such a massive threat atm, the days of your success with Leavanny seem numbered already. If you like Leavanny so much (which is incredibly evident), you should just respect what Leavanny does best, aka being the best Sticky Web user in the tier, which is a pretty notable honor already, instead of trying to pass it off as a mediocre physical attacker that is easier to prepare for than other similar attackers.
 
Why is Rampardos in Weather setters? Is that a thing?
Yeah Rampardos is a pretty strong early game weather setter as it is one of the few pokemon that can carry both SR and Weather plus it can cripple a mon goin down

Rampardos @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Stealth Rock
- Rain Dance / Sunny Day
- Superpower / Endeavor
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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I'll address the stuff that has been posted since I last updated. If I dont respond to something that hasnt been addressed by someone else I added it.
Leafeon to Momentum cuz sd pass that synergizes with rott and rhydon is p cool.:toast:
Leafeon on its own is rather mediocre and underwhelming, and tends to be a lot better on paper. That being said, it does have the niche of its kinda cool SD Natural Gift sets which can lure in and remove some of its typical checks, but I really don't think Baton Pass is a worthwhile option on it.
E-vire in water checks? It checks all the bulky waters in the tier with wild charge+volt switch+earthquake, it struggles against stuff like simipour and floatzel but that's why it's just a check
When I think of water checks in teambuilding, most if not all of the time its mons that resist or are immune to water which are the best choices, and while evire does threaten most if not all of them it kinda needs a free switch in which isnt always the most reliable thing.
Pinsir should be added to Psychic-type checks.

Leavanny checks Malamar, Psychic- as well as Water-types. Fighting-types too, but it should never be your only Fighting check.
It counters Sun if you're looking for that, too.

Huntail is a Baton Pass user in conjunction with Coil, which it can also use as a Set-up Sweeper. It's there in the Shell Smash category but not in the "other".
Pinsir is not a reliable psychic check as it really cannot switch in very safely, and I'll quote Blast's reasoning from the previous page:
Like for example I really don't like the idea of adding Haunter or Pinsir to Psychic checks just because they can hit it super effectively, because neither can actually switch in, so you're never going to be adding either of those when you specifically need a good Psychic-type check (even an offensive one). Generally when I'm looking for 'checks' in teambuilding I'm looking for something that can at least switch in once, since otherwise it's just a revenge killer rather than a direct check. Now don't get me wrong, revenge killing is a fine way to deal with threats in real battle scenarios, but when I'm looking for SPECIFIC checks in teambuilding (which I assume is what this thread is trying to give) I'm looking for something more than just that.
The issue I have with calling Leavanny a check to anything is that its used as a suicide lead and as such really isnt bothering to switch into stuff, as it just does its job setting up Sticky Web (the good set mind you) and/or attacking. I know others stated this, but calling Leavanny, let alone one mon, a counter to an entire playstyle is absurd.
Made a subsection in the setup sweepers area for coil with Arbok and Huntail.
Also Curse quagsire is really bad with the prominence of grass coverage with mons trying to hit rhydon. Thing like a xatu could come in a bop you with a giga. But that's a narrow-minded opinion and idk what others will think.

A late game cleaner Section might be nice, although it might just be the boosting sweepers. This might include pokemon such as hitmonchan and kanga with strong priority, or pokemon such as Klinklang or Malamar who have weakened checks.

If Shiftry is a wallbreaker, i definitely think SD Turne should be considered one.

Throh for Bulk Up sweepers, the BU Set is pretty tanky and dishes out hard hits with storm throw+knock off, and benefits from being statused with Guts. Can also heal with resto chesto
Curse Quagsire certainly dislikes the rise of Grass types but it certainly isnt unusable, which I assume you were implying to remove it. The problem I see with late game cleaners is that its a pretty vague and arbitrary term and Choice Scarf and priority users are already listed.
SD Cacturne is pretty outclassed and I personally would never use it because the mixed set is so good, and Shiftry is not in the wallbreakers section for its SD set alone, its moreso there for the mixed set. Regardless, I added Cacturne to wallbreakers; surprised I missed that.
Throh isnt even on the viability rankings, and I'm only keeping stuff from C+ and above.
Is there a reason Pyroar isn't under Wallbreakers? Specs is capable of dishing out serious damage. It could probably also be added to Stallbreakers thanks to the cheeky Taunt set. Vanilluxe can probably be added to priority users since Ice Shard is a fairly used option on offensive sets. Vanilluxe could probably be added to Wallbreakers too as it's perfectly viable without Autotomize.
Added Pyroar and Vanilluxe to wallbreakers, but I really dont think its worth putting Vanilluxe in Autotomize since from what I've seen and used having an extra coverage move or Ice Shard is almost always more beneficial.
Some other stuff:
- Linoone needs to be added to other sweepers and priority users
- Archeops could be added to momentum and wallbreakers since it's strong, has a legit CB set, and can viably run U-turn
- Swellow can be added to wallbreakers due to its strong physical and special sets
- Volbeat could maybe be added to weather setters since it's been seeing some use
- Mesprit can be added to defensive stealth rock users since people have been using defensive Mesprit to replace Uxie
Added chops to wallbreakers but not exactly on the merit of the CB set, the mixed or even fully physical sets do a good enough job of wallbreaking. I really dont think U-turn is very good on Archeops since while it does capitalize on the switches Archeops forces, using a coverage move to hit one of its checks is generally more useful than just U-turning out. Volbeat is only C- on the rankings, and I really dont think its that great.
 
Beartic is amazing in rain.

Leavanny neither possesses the defensive presence (actually resisting Psychic) nor the appropriate offensive presence (Scyther and Pinsir have far greater "punishing potential") to be considered an adequate Psychic check compared to, say, a freaking Butterfree. I already doubt Leavanny's competency as a Water check given its poor longevity, but literally the only situation Leavanny can switch into a Fighting-type and beat it is if Sawk uses Close Combat (and does not have protection from Sturdy), making it an extremely shaky response against all the other Fightings.
About Fighting-types, you are exactly right - which is why I stated right away Leavanny should never be your only Fighting-check. Ever. Leavanny just deters their STAB as well as Earthquake coverage, which can allow you to do things otherwise impossible, like staying in with a Steel-type (if you know that Fighting-type is choiced), for example, or give an already solid check an easier time checking (Misdreavus for example, does not like taking Banded Mold Breaker Earthquake from Sawk, but Zen Headbutt or Ice Punch are way less of a problem.
About Psychics, Leavanny can actually switch into most if it really needs to, but indeed it is advised you don't. But neither can Pinsir, for that matter, or even Scyther because Thunderbolt and Thunder Wave are a thing, and Jynx has STAB Ice Beam.

Also, there is this... If Leafeon is your only Water-check, you won't do well (not that Leavanny should be your only water-check!).
252+ SpA Life Orb Poliwrath Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Leafeon: 265-315 (97.7 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Poliwrath Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Leavanny: 260-306 (89.3 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Boltsandbombers actually gave much better reasoning; if you can't switch in, you won't be listed. But if we go with that reasoning, remove Leafeon from Water-type checks as well because it dies to every remotely powerful Ice Beam.
I wouldn't be so quick to jump the gun on pointing out others being wrong if I were you. As far as I am concerned there is literally no reason to use Leavanny as a physical sweeper over the likes of Sawsbuck or Leafeon, which are faster and more efficient attackers. If you want Bug moves so badly you could always try Megahorn Sawsbuck, and Sawsbuck has the benefit of powerful Normal STAB. There's also the fact that both Sawsbuck and Leafeon have access to Natural Gift, which is a very important advantage as those two basically have an additional coverage move that Leavanny does not. Scyther and Pinsir are also superior offensive Bug-types due to their stronger neutral coverage, while Scyther has bulk, Speed, and Roost on its side while Pinsir has great neutral coverage and Mold Breaker to bypass Quagsire without the need for Grass STAB. The team in that replay you've shown succumbs to Sawsbuck and Natural Gift Leafeon all the same; more importantly they'd do it better since Sawsbuck's healing and Leafeon's physical bulk would allow them to shrug off Kangaskhan's priority much better than Leavanny.
Funnily enough, I never disagreed with others being wrong - they are not. You call Scyther and Pinsir better Bug-types, which is the truth. But they aren't Grass-types as well. Similar for calling Sawsbuck a better Grass-type than Leavanny, which is also true - but it isn't also a Bug-type. And Natural Gift is cool but Leavanny has 4MSS as it is; it already carries 3 attack moves, and it still wants Webs, Heal Bell and Synthesis (and possibly Magic Coat) as well.

There is also this, an example of where that Bug-typing comes into play:
4 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sawsbuck: 216-256 (71.7 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Leavanny: 48-57 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Leavanny X-Scissor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 336-396 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (Guaranteed OHKO with Life Orb or Insect Plate, or SR on the field, but you often enough lose your item because you switched into Knock Off instead).
Non-X-Scissor Leafeon is also set-up bait for Malamar.
Sharing typing means basically nothing; you'd sooner compare your offensive Leavanny to Sawsbuck and Leafeon than those two super irrelevant Bugs. Also Leavanny and Gourgeist checking the same things wat
It means indeed nothing, but you missed my point; every mon with an unique typing (as as you said, the other two are irrelevant) has a niche. Always, through virtue of said rare or unique typing - as long as it has the tools to use their typing, that is. There will be mons no one has discovered the niche of as of yet, or sets we don't know about but mon X can use it solely because it has that beautiful, gorgeous typing. A typing that might suck for all other purposes, but yet still grants it that tiny niche, or that ease in teambuilding in covering things up for certain players.

About Leavanny and Gourgeist; They check them in different ways. Both are Grass-types that resist Fighting and share a bunch of weaknesses. Gourgeist will stall them out with Seed and WoW, whereas Leavanny will kill them. Gourgeist has far more staying power, and will stay on the field much longer. But both are used to check and/or counter Malamar, Water-types, and Ground-types. You exchange a better match-up versus Fighting-types (Gourgeist) for a better match-up versus Water-types (Leavanny) but they use their typing to check things. It seems odd at first, but due to their entirely different functioning, their partially shared typing and the things their secondary typing hits for SE damage, and the fact they share many weaknesses as well, you really will never use both on the same team unless you go Kamikaze with Leavanny.
ou use them entirely differently, sure. But you'd be surprised at how similar the things are they check. Obviously there are differences, for example, Gourgeist checks Primeape whereas Leavanny checks Samurott, but there are many things they both check.


A long while ago, I had a team that was weak to Heatmor but not to Magmortar because it has Sucker Punch and Giga Drain - when Seismitoad was my Fire-check. Oops.

Also, why mentioning Shiftry as a reason for Leavanny's downfall? Shiftry's rise is only a good thing for Leavanny as Leavanny is a solid check to it.
 
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marilli

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Then you woulda been weak to HP Grass Magmortar, oops

It's true that Leavanny barely avoids OHKOs. But it needs Life Orb to attack properly, no? It's also weak to SR and any hazards would turn any close calls into sure OHKO. It those close calls are what's leading you to Leavanny, you know you can use non 252/252 spreads on other Pokemon!

edit: if you are talking about viability of attacking Leavanny with Sticky Web, I think that might be an OK alternative to its Sticky Web dedicated lead set with sash and bouncing taunt or whatever. But its main utility should come from Sticky Web, then attacking second when Webs arent the priority.
 
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Beartic is amazing in rain.


About Fighting-types, you are exactly right - which is why I stated right away Leavanny should never be your only Fighting-check. Ever. Leavanny just deters their STAB as well as Earthquake coverage, which can allow you to do things otherwise impossible, like staying in with a Steel-type (if you know that Fighting-type is choiced, for example), or give an already solid check an easier time checking (Misdreavus for example, does not like taking Banded Mold Breaker Earthquake from Sawk, but Zen Headbutt or Ice Punch are way less of a problem.
About Psychics, Leavanny can actually switch into most if it really needs to, but indeed it is advised you don't. But neither can Pinsir, for that matter, or even Scyther because Thunderbolt and Thunder Wave are a thing, and Jynx has STAB Ice Beam.

Also, there is this... If Leafeon is your only Water-check, you won't do well (not that Leavanny should be your only water-check!).
216 SpA Lanturn Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Leavanny: 160-190 (54.9 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
216 SpA Lanturn Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Leafeon: 190-224 (70.1 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Boltsandbombers actually gave much better reasoning; if you can't switch in, you won't be listed. But if we go with that reasoning, remove Leafeon from Water-type checks as well because it dies to every remotely powerful Ice Beam.

I wouldn't be so quick to jump the gun on pointing out others being wrong if I were you. As far as I am concerned there is literally no reason to use Leavanny as a physical sweeper over the likes of Sawsbuck or Leafeon, which are faster and more efficient attackers. If you want Bug moves so badly you could always try Megahorn Sawsbuck, and Sawsbuck has the benefit of powerful Normal STAB. There's also the fact that both Sawsbuck and Leafeon have access to Natural Gift, which is a very important advantage as those two basically have an additional coverage move that Leavanny does not. Scyther and Pinsir are also superior offensive Bug-types due to their stronger neutral coverage, while Scyther has bulk, Speed, and Roost on its side while Pinsir has great neutral coverage and Mold Breaker to bypass Quagsire without the need for Grass STAB. The team in that replay you've shown succumbs to Sawsbuck and Natural Gift Leafeon all the same; more importantly they'd do it better since Sawsbuck's healing and Leafeon's physical bulk would allow them to shrug off Kangaskhan's priority much better than Leavanny.

Funnily enough, I never disagreed with others being wrong - they are not. You call Scyther and Pinsir better Bug-types, which is the truth. But they aren't Grass-types as well. Similar for calling Sawsbuck a better Grass-type than Leavanny, which is also true - but it isn't also a Bug-type. And Natural Gift is cool but Leavanny has 4MSS as it is; it already carries 3 attack moves, and it still wants Webs, Heal Bell and Synthesis (and possibly Magic Coat) as well.

There is also this, an example of where that Bug-type comes into play:
4 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sawsbuck: 216-256 (71.7 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Leavanny: 48-57 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Leavanny X-Scissor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 336-396 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (Guaranteed OHKO with Life Orb or Insect Plate, or SR on the field, but you often enough lose your item because you switched into Knock Off instead).
Non-X-Scissor Leafeon is also set-up bait for Malamar.

It means indeed nothing, but you missed my point; every mon with an unique typing (as as you said, the other two are irrelevant) has a niche. Always, through virtue of said rare or unique typing - as long as it has the tools to use their typing, that is. There will be mons no one has discovered the niche of as of yet, or sets we don't know about but mon X can use it solely because it has that beautiful, gorgeous typing. A typing that might suck for all other purposes, but yet still grants it that tiny niche, or that ease in teambuilding in covering things up for certain players.

About Leavanny and Gourgeist; They check them in different ways. Both are Grass-types that resist Fighting and share a bunch of weaknesses. Gourgeist will stall them out with Seed and WoW, whereas Leavanny will kill them. Gourgeist has far more staying power, and will stay on the field much longer. But both are used to check and/or counter Malamar, Water-types, and Ground-types. You exchange a better match-up versus Fighting-types (Gourgeist) for a better match-up versus Water-types (Leavanny) but they use their typing to check things. It seems odd at first, but due to their entirely different functioning, their partially shared typing and the things their secondary typing hits for SE damage, and the fact they share many weaknesses as well, you really will never use both on the same team unless you go Kamikaze with Leavanny.
ou use them entirely differently, sure. But you'd be surprised at how similar the things are they check. Obviously there are differences, for example, Gourgeist checks Primeape whereas Leavanny checks Samurott, but there are many things they both check.


A long while ago, I had a team that was weak to Heatmor but not to Magmortar because it has Sucker Punch and Giga Drain - when Seismitoad was my Fire-check. Oops.

Also, why mentioning Shiftry as a reason for Leavanny's downfall? Shiftry's rise is only a good thing for Leavanny as Leavanny is a solid check to it.
oki I guess I'll reply to this.

Beartic is horrible in NU rain, its lack of immediate power means it often can't sweep, being weak to all types of priority doesn't help it and because rains teams can't afford to run hazards control, the hazards weakness mean its only really getting 1 kill a game if your lucky. Beartic plays second fiddle to Kabutops, every, single, time.

Onto leavanny, you say it deters CC
252+ Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Leavanny: 126-148 (43.2 - 50.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
gets 2hkoed by it with any residual damage. That's Scarf Sawk, Banded Sawk OHKOs after Stealth Rocks. That isn't detering CC, that encourages the use of CC since leavanny is just something else that gets 2hkoed by it, and in some regards ohkod.

You say Leavanny can switch into Psychics if it needs to,
252 SpA Mesprit Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Leavanny: 153-181 (52.5 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
yet is 2hkoed on the switch by Scarf Mesprit, Musharna can settup on Leavanny with Barrier, and Jynx just kills it with Ice Beam. It is true that Pinsir can't switch in as well, but scyther can? the bulky SD is a fantastic pivot on the likes of Mesprit and Jynx since it outspeed, Psychic does nothing and it can live Ice Beam from Sash/Scarf Jynx (the ones that threaten it most). In the regard of checking Fighting Types / Psychic Types, wouldn't it be normal to say Scyther outclasses Leavanny as a Fighting Type and Psychic Check? and Pinsir outclasses it as an offensive Bug Type threat?

By Virtue of what you just said, everything with a Unique Typing has a niche:
~Magcargo
~Marill
~Palpitoad
~Pignite / Monferno
~Metang
~Lampent
~Krokorok
~Kirlia
~Wormadam Formes
~Tropius
~Lunatone / Solrock
~Drifblim
~Dedenne
~Carbink
~Ariados
all have a niche for covering certain defensive types. Let's have a look! Magcargo counters Birds since it has Rocks and Recovery as Well as Flamebody, it can also deter settup sweepers thanks to Clear Smog, giving it a viable niche. Dedenne, Carbink, Marill, Kirlia are at the very least amazing dragon counters, as well as having certain defensive niches, like flying resist, normal resists, Grass Immunity + Water resist, and 4x Fighting Resist respectively. Lampent is a fantastic fire check with fighting Immunity, Krokorok is an SR Mon that beats Psychics and has pursuit, Metang counters Psychic, Steel, Normal, Flying and Grass Pokémon and Lunatone beats fighters 1v1 and resists flying + normal.

All these mons have certain defensive niches to fill certain teams by virtue of their unique typing.

Are they viable?

Hell, No.
First of all, just because they have a unique typing, doesn't mean it can perform its roll efficiently. This is especially the case of Leavanny, a Malamar counter weak to SR and Neutral to Dark STAB. The fighting switch in that gets 2hkoed, or the Psychic Type Switch that gets beaten 1v1 or 2hkoed. Sure, it has the typing to soft check each and every one of these threats, but is it viable? Is it worth using over Scyther / Leafeon for any reasons that's not Sticky Web which as a playstyles is rather underwhelming itself.
Not in my opinion, especially if all those other mons I've mentioned are still classed as outclasses, despite their own typing niches.

The reason is that Shiftry is a more viable sun counter than Leavanny. In every scenario, Shiftry does just as much work to sun as Leavanny did, but has the benefit of being an offensive threat that vastly outscales Leavanny, outside of that extremely tiny tiny niche.

In my opinion, and for the welfare of new players seeking for proper advice on what counters Sun and w/e, Leavanny shouldn't be added. It's only niche is Webs + Decent Movepool, let's not try and expand it to something it really isn't.
A Water Check?, come on.
 
Then you woulda been weak to HP Grass Magmortar, oops

It's true that Leavanny barely avoids OHKOs. But it needs Life Orb to attack properly, no? It's also weak to SR and any hazards would turn any close calls into sure OHKO. It those close calls are what's leading you to Leavanny, you know you can use non 252/252 spreads on other Pokemon!

edit: if you are talking about viability of attacking Leavanny with Sticky Web, I think that might be an OK alternative to its Sticky Web dedicated lead set with sash and bouncing taunt or whatever. But its main utility should come from Sticky Web, then attacking second when Webs arent the priority.
marilli Leavanny avoids the OHKO from a super-effective move it isn't even supposed to switch into and just served to be an example of how Leavanny is a
counter to Specs Poliwrath. But if you know it's going to use Ice Beam, you switch in a Water-type or a Steel-type, and if you expect a STAB you switch in Leavanny.

And yeah, you can very easily run Sticky Web in that 3rd or 4th moveslot and I did that actually most of the time. I swapped it for Synthesis only when I had enough of all the defog spam that litters the metagame currently but once this hype dies down I probably go webs again. Synthesis + Sticky Web and dual STAB with Life Orb is also a very decent possibility and has surprising longevity.
oki I guess I'll reply to this.

Beartic is horrible in NU rain, its lack of immediate power means it often can't sweep, being weak to all types of priority doesn't help it and because rains teams can't afford to run hazards control, the hazards weakness mean its only really getting 1 kill a game if your lucky. Beartic plays second fiddle to Kabutops, every, single, time.
Beartic helps in assisting Kabutops and Ludicolo to sweep, it isn't supposed to sweep itself. Also it has base 110 attack, isn't exactly slow (in rain) and has a ton of coverage and priority of its own in Aqua Jet. But Beartic is generally pretty happy if it could hit a roadblock with Icicle Crash or a coverage move like Superpower or Stone Edge to allow Ludicolo to clean up.
Onto leavanny, you say it deters CC
252+ Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Leavanny: 126-148 (43.2 - 50.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

gets 2hkoed by it with any residual damage. That's Scarf Sawk, Banded Sawk OHKOs after Stealth Rocks. That isn't detering CC, that encourages the use of CC since leavanny is just something else that gets 2hkoed by it, and in some regards ohkod.
Valid argument but unnecessary, since I already stated Leavanny should never be your only fighting check. Besides, there are no mons at Base 91 speed tier in NU (outside of Chatot, lol), so you can shift a few speed EVs to Def to annoy Sawk.
You say Leavanny can switch into Psychics if it needs to,
252 SpA Mesprit Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Leavanny: 153-181 (52.5 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
yet is 2hkoed on the switch by Scarf Mesprit, Musharna can settup on Leavanny with Barrier, and Jynx just kills it with Ice Beam. It is true that Pinsir can't switch in as well, but scyther can? the bulky SD is a fantastic pivot on the likes of Mesprit and Jynx since it outspeed, Psychic does nothing and it can live Ice Beam from Sash/Scarf Jynx (the ones that threaten it most). In the regard of checking Fighting Types / Psychic Types, wouldn't it be normal to say Scyther outclasses Leavanny as a Fighting Type and Psychic Check? and Pinsir outclasses it as an offensive Bug Type threat?
Another valid but unnecessary argument; I never said Leavanny was not outclassed as an offensive Bug-type, or by Scyther as a Fighting-type or Psychic-type check - it simply is. I only said Leavanny condenses the role of Leafeon and Pinsir in one teamslot, and yes, while it is not as good as either of them in their respective roles, it saves you a teamslot.

Also, Scyther cannot switch into T-Wave which a good number of Psychics have a tendency carry, or just a random Stone Edge. Much like with Leavanny, scouting for the set is useful (you don't switch Leavanny into a Scarfed Psychic - let's switch in Klingklang instead!)
Drifblim, Metang and Solrock are awesome. Their typing has turned me to them more than once and they are very fun to use.
Poliwrath is also a cool mon with an unique typing and stat distribution that allows it to blanket check a ton of stuff. Kirlia has the same typing as Mr. Mime, so you should not have even mentioned that poor little thing.
Magcargo is also fun to use, but you have to be very conscious of the flaws that its speed stat and typing bring if you want it to do its job.


EDIT @ Boltsandbombers below:
Yes, I want to talk about Metang as a Psychic-check!

*gets shot*
 
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I'll address the stuff that has been posted since I last updated. If I dont respond to something that hasnt been addressed by someone else I added it.

Leafeon on its own is rather mediocre and underwhelming, and tends to be a lot better on paper. That being said, it does have the niche of its kinda cool SD Natural Gift sets which can lure in and remove some of its typical checks, but I really don't think Baton Pass is a worthwhile option on it.

When I think of water checks in teambuilding, most if not all of the time its mons that resist or are immune to water which are the best choices, and while evire does threaten most if not all of them it kinda needs a free switch in which isnt always the most reliable thing.

Pinsir is not a reliable psychic check as it really cannot switch in very safely, and I'll quote Blast's reasoning from the previous page:

The issue I have with calling Leavanny a check to anything is that its used as a suicide lead and as such really isnt bothering to switch into stuff, as it just does its job setting up Sticky Web (the good set mind you) and/or attacking. I know others stated this, but calling Leavanny, let alone one mon, a counter to an entire playstyle is absurd.
Made a subsection in the setup sweepers area for coil with Arbok and Huntail.

Curse Quagsire certainly dislikes the rise of Grass types but it certainly isnt unusable, which I assume you were implying to remove it. The problem I see with late game cleaners is that its a pretty vague and arbitrary term and Choice Scarf and priority users are already listed.
SD Cacturne is pretty outclassed and I personally would never use it because the mixed set is so good, and Shiftry is not in the wallbreakers section for its SD set alone, its moreso there for the mixed set. Regardless, I added Cacturne to wallbreakers; surprised I missed that.
Throh isnt even on the viability rankings, and I'm only keeping stuff from C+ and above.

Added Pyroar and Vanilluxe to wallbreakers, but I really dont think its worth putting Vanilluxe in Autotomize since from what I've seen and used having an extra coverage move or Ice Shard is almost always more beneficial.

Added chops to wallbreakers but not exactly on the merit of the CB set, the mixed or even fully physical sets do a good enough job of wallbreaking. I really dont think U-turn is very good on Archeops since while it does capitalize on the switches Archeops forces, using a coverage move to hit one of its checks is generally more useful than just U-turning out. Volbeat is only C- on the rankings, and I really dont think its that great.
But zebstrika is in offensive water checks you fraud (kidding). Evire comes in for free on lanterns volt switch and eqs. It also has switch ins on rare stuff like hurricane pelli, choiced ice beams, etc
 

Ren-chon

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Well, I'd like to propose a few things. Not very important ones though.
Momentum (Baton Pass): Scyther (the SD Pass set)
Sun Abuser (and maybe setter too): Vileplume (a slower Victrebeel w/o weather ball, but bulkier, stronger and actually able to set his own sun)
Swords Dance: Sandslash
Taunt: Weezing, Misdreavus
Normal-type checks: Rotom, Mismagius (Offensive); Mismagius, Misdreavus (Defensive, the first one being the bulky wow set n_n)
Scarf: Lilligant (it's already listed as a HW user, and the only time Lilligant ever carry Healing Wish is when it's scarfed ._.)
 
Thoughts on adding a Mega Audino checks section?

It's honestly one of the hardest things to break in the tier and so you always have to keep in mind you have something on your team that's able to beat it. Physically defensive CroDino sets can be a complete nightmare and specially defensive sets wall a huge portion of the metagame while offensive variations can lure traditional counters with coverage moves.

Mega-Audino Checks:

Offensive:


Defensive:


Added in Psychic types since Calm Mind Psyshock is always able to beat it but some of the others listed maybe a little shaky. Weezing really has to have taunt or some variation if it wants to be CroDino, Haunter won't be able to get past Calm mind sets if it's got too many boosts up and Pawniard is pretty frail and really has to boost if it want's to break past. I may have missed a couple checks but I just wanted to here your initial thoughts :]
 

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