On Swagger (and other luck based moves)

Serapis

Losing my way to Victory
Alright, this may very well have been addressed before but even if it has been the issue is still very much present. The point of this thread will be to discuss all things related to the luck aspect in Pokemon ranging from the obvious example of Swagger to less unusual things.


Sableye @ Mental Herb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Foul Play
- Will-O-Wisp
- Swagger
- Sunny Day

I have recently won several tournaments in the Doubles OU Room with this Sableye, and the amount of hate I received for using Swagger was overwhelming. Before I go into why Swagger is on the set, I would like to preface this entire discussion with a simple statement.

Moves are included on sets to be used; therefor the move that is useful in the most situations is the best move to have on the set.

(I wrote that in a minute. If you see issues with it, feel free to bring them up and I'll edit it as needed)

Anyway, my team was originally a VGC team and Sableye was the last member I added as well as my least used Pokemon overall. Despite that, it played a vital role on my team with Sunny Day for my overall Rain matchup, W-o-W for power control in the games where I brought it and Foul Play to actually have an offensive presence on the field (and OHKO Blade-Aegislash, which the team in question was weak to).

When it came to the final moveslot I found myself staring down a lot of meh options like Fake Out, Quash, Recover, Captivate and Confuse Ray. The obvious option for the set was Taunt, so I added it. After around 30 ladder games, in which I didn't use Taunt a single time, I started to doubt it's worth. As I played more and more it became increasingly apparent that Taunt was not an asset to my team, and because of that I decided to test Swagger in that slot. My reasoning was very similar to that of Ben who's Sableye report can be found here. Long story short, Swagger is better than nothing and it gives you something to do when you'd otherwise have a dead slot on your side of the field.

Now, here's where the discussion starts. Can you actually blame a player for doing what is in their own best interest when it comes to winning games? Well, yes, you can. The real question is "Should you?" I have won games that I would have lost otherwise by Swaggering things. Like I said, I could run Taunt in that slot but it would be detrimental overall. This all leads to one simple fact:

In some situations running and using luck based moves are your best option. Furthermore, removing luck based moves in those situations would make the team less competitive overall.

I know that one's a bit of a large claim, but Pokemon is a game with both elements of skill and luck. If you feel that ignoring or disregarding an entire aspect of the game is to your benefit, then I don't believe there's much more to say. If, however, you recognize that skill alone does not determine games then you can capitalize on the resources that the game presents to you.

So, what are your thoughts?
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
the council voted on swagger literally like a week ago and it was 9-1 in favor of not doing anything

using swagger is not inherently uncompetitive, there's skill involved in playing both with and against swagger and it's not used by only bad players.

i'd like everyone to keep this in mind while responding to serapis's thread.
 

n10siT

Hoopa can do anything!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
A confusion clause would be cool but there's nothing wrong with swagger itself, its a good move to cripple support/special attackers. It can just get... really fucking annoying. A confusion clause would be a better topic for discussion than a swagger ban, imo.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
A confusion clause would be cool but there's nothing wrong with swagger itself, its a good move to cripple support/special attackers. It can just get... really fucking annoying. A confusion clause would be a better topic for discussion than a swagger ban, imo.
council's not doing anything with confusion unless you can sway literally half of us to change our votes, so let's not this here.


i've tried swagger out on multiple teams but the only one i've not deleted is:

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Rock Slide
- Crunch
- Low Kick

Bisharp @ Dark Gem
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Night Slash
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Protect

Thundurus @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 52 SpA / 56 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Swagger
- Thunderbolt

Jirachi @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 24 Def / 228 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Follow Me
- Helping Hand
- Icy Wind
- Iron Head

Latios @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Protect

Keldeo @ Water Gem
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Secret Sword
- Hydro Pump
- Protect
- Taunt


here are the basic merits of (prankster) swagger:
  • it's good vs TR because you can prevent the set a lot of the time (esp w/ twave as well) but even if you can't you're getting to move first and give your opponent only a coinflip for moving which helps for stalling out and you don't have to make sure ur thund is always in a position to taunt
  • it's generally fantastic vs bulky special attackers because they have a 50% chance of not moving which is a huge momentum suck and theres like no drawback to them moving (its less good vs offensive special attackers because a hydrei hitting a single draco can fuck you but if a politoed is confused they're more likely to say "fuck it" and switch than deal with 3-4 turns of confusion when they go for their scalds and icy winds and encores often which they can't afford to fail because the partner relies on getting it up)
  • it can force the opponent to be cautious with physical attackers (will at the very least keep them from using PuP or DD) once revealed but is best to not actually use on them usually because confusion damage is piss weak and +2 kang return isnt fun
  • if ur already being a jew with teracott then ur terrak's probably lum so why not have swagger too
  • and, of course, it can bail you out when u could otherwise get fucked
on my team i used swiggity swog mostly b/c i had a terrible TR matchup and wanted to be able to gut through TR turns once they went up, also though because I had a bad landot matchup and wanted to be able to use thund to help deal with it (risky af tho and i don't really end up using swagger for that too much)

p.s. i just realized that gen v doubles is now the only ou meta with free skymin, reasons to play bw2dou +1
 

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