NU Battle Study: Week Four (DTC vs Raseri)

(parts of post taken from "The Better Battler Project" by Thepillsburydoughboy and The Great Mighty Doom)

Preface
One of the most important exercises to become a better player at chess is to review your matches after you play them. In doing so, we find the mistakes, positions, and techniques that could have turned our loss into a win. In Pokemon we seldom review our matches, often due to the to the frustrating implications of a loss. Well, what if we applied the principles of chess to Pokemon?

The primary purpose of this thread is to analyze battles by some of NU's top players, the main source of battle for this thread are going to be coming from Battle of the Week, but other amazing battles can be considered for discussion.

Rules:
  • In this thread, we are aiming to provide constructive criticism in order to improve our battling skills. If you can not give constructive criticism, whether be with your attitude or skill, refrain from posting in this thread. Likewise if you can not take constructive criticism do not post in this thread.
  • Don't troll
  • Be respectful




Guidelines:
  • If you are newer to the game and are inexperienced in NU, refrain from posting a critique of another battler.
  • Giving information what you were trying to accomplish with your team or what your goal was for the battle will allow you to put context on what you were doing for your critics.
  • To those giving critiques, remember that you are giving advice to possibly newer and more inexperienced players. Thus, try to remain as concise as possible in your explanation. In addition, use the terms of your post correctly. For example, the difference between a check and a counter.
  • However, to those who are receiving the critique, it is your responsibility to understand the definitions and explanations used by the critic. Therefore, perusing theGen 5 Pokemon Dictionary can be a great asset to get what your critic is saying.
  • Flaming other users on their skills, teambuilding, and/or intelligence WILL NOT be tolerated.


This week we will be discussing ebeast vs FLCL, in particular the second match of three that they played. The match can be found here. Here are some examples of things that could be discussed:

  • Things that FLCL did that helped him win
  • Things that ebeast did that caused him to lose
  • What ebeast could have done differently in order to win
  • Good plays made by either player
  • Bad plays made by either player

Also if anyone wants to make a banner for this that would be great :)

I might also host the battle on youtube later in order to make it easier to watch.

Next week i'll add this weeks battle of the week participants :)
 
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soulgazer

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Things that FLCL did that helped him win:

While FLCL and EBeast are great players, I believe FLCL had a better team matchup as he had everything on EBeast's team countered by one of his or in check.

Things that ebeast did that caused him to lose:

I can't really say if what EBeast did was game changing, but on Turn 14 EBeast used Hidden Power Rock instead of using Giga Drain while in Overgrow range. +2 LO Overgrow could actually kill Skuntank, which was at 59%:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Overgrow Serperior Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 220 SpD Skuntank: 183-216 (52.73 - 62.24%)

What ebeast could have done differently in order to win:

Now obviously the previous damage calc assumes that FLCL uses the same spread, but I believe his spread has probably even less investment in bulk (FLCL likes to speed creep). The only pokemon on FLCL who could had took a Giga Drain from Serperior at that moment was Rotom-Spin, which could even be OHKO after Stealth Rock with some max damage rolls. So after all, using Giga Drain would had been the best play and would have most probably give EBeast better chances to win.

Good plays made by either player:

Turn 12-14 (EBeast): EBeast predicted flcl 3 times in a row, using Calm Mind on Skuntank's Sucker Punch and using an attacking move on the turn Skuntank switch out.

Overall they both made good plays/predictions, but at the end the team advantage on FLCL's side gave him the win.

Bad plays made by either player:

Turn 12-14 (FLCL): Using Sucker Punch two turn in a row wasn't the best play ever. He could had switch in Piloswine quite easily, take at worst an unboosted Giga Drain which can't OHKO, and finish it off with Ice Shard. I say that because I do believe the rest of his team could easily handle the rest of EBeast's team at that point and nothing from EBeast's side would've enjoyed to take a hit from Piloswine, except Gothorita which couldn't do much with Skuntank still alive on FLCL's side.

To be completely honest, both of them played quite well in my eyes, making it hard for me to make a critic. :confused:
 

skylight

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What FLCL did to help him win:
I think sending out Jynx first was a huge positive for FLCL. Serperior wasn't safe for ebeast to send out as it wouldn't have done anything for the team early on (Ice Shard, Poison Jab and maybe Twave on Mushy, or Trick on Rotom-S were all issues), so Serp wasn't going to be a risk for Jynx. Charizard wasn't likely to be sent out because it couldn't OHKO Mushy, and Mushy would've used Psychic or Twave (if it had it), Skunk would've used Sucker Punch and lived a hit, and Swine would've also lived a hit and hit Zard twice with Ice Shard or something worse. Given that Jynx was Scarf on ebeast's team, chances are that Zard was LO rather than Scarf so the risk of sending it in meant Jynx could also be Scarf, could LK and switch out leaving Zard out of commission. With this in mind Jynx was the only thing that could handle Seismitoad pretty well, which is why Jynx was likely sent out. I think that by doing that FLCL gained the advantage early on (and if Toad stayed asleep it would've been 10x harder for ebeast because he would've had no SR, and a full HP Jynx to deal with). FLCL also predicted ebeast's actions most of the match and by thinking ahead he pretty much gained the advantage. With that said, FLCL also had the team advantage (even having Poison Jab on Skuntank rather than Crunch) gave him a huge advantage.

What ebeast did to make him lose:
Not taking enough risks I think. From the start, while SR definitely would've helped early on, if he took the risk with Jynx and sent out Zard first he could've prevented toad from being slept, and done some damage to Rott at the same time. However, ebeast did make some careless plays which could've helped him later in the game, for example killing Zard when he could've switched to Toad and gained the extra HP because it could've lived a Megahorn (or even to Jynx to regain an advantage with LK which I'm p sure ebeast uses on Scarf Jynx since FLCL wouldn't have liked to give Zard the extra chance to recover HP w/ Roost or attack with HP Grass or something, and by using Megahorn it wouldn't have killed Zard).

What ebeast could have done differently in order to win:
If he predicted better for the most part, otherwise that was all he could really do because from the start FLCL really had the better team matchup which meant from the start it was a lot harder for ebeast to do much.

Good plays made by both players:
I liked when ebeast used Toxic on Mushy when Toad was going to die since long term it made it a lot easier for Carracosta which could only like 3HKO Mushy otherwise. FLCL also using SD while Gothorita set up Reflect was pretty cool but it was the logical option there really.

Bad plays made by both players:
As the previous poster mentioned, if only ebeast used Giga Drain and Swine did switch in, Serp would've had a much better chance and could've effectively given ebeast the win as after two CMs, priority wouldn't have helped out FLCL much as Rotom-S would be OHKO'd, Mushy would've been in trouble, Otter OHKO'd and Skunk easy to deal with. In a way that was also a bad play by FLCL, allowing Serp to get to 2 CMs when it was at a risk to his team.

good battle tho gj guys!
 

cb aaron judge

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Things that FLCL did that helped him win:

FLCL was helped by the fact that he had superior team matchup (most of his Pokemon checked one of ebeast's Pokemon), and his leading with Jynx, which could significantly hurt anything on ebeast's team and sleep one of ebeast's Pokemon with Lovely Kiss.

Things that ebeast did that caused him to lose:

The turn 14 play caused ebeast to lose any momentum he had gained with the boosts and a potential sweep, which basically meant the game was won by FLCL at that point as ebeast now struggled to break through FLCL.

What ebeast could have done differently in order to win:

Unfortunately, the team matchup was not in ebeast's favor, forcing him to play rather cautiously but I honestly think ebeast should've taken a risk and used Stone Edge on Turn 6, as it wouldve taken a decent chunk out of any of FLCL's Pokemon and Musharna wouldve been easy to KO if FLCL had decided to switch it out then (unlike if he had used Waterfall, which allowed FLCL to Moonlight and get back to nearly full health, where it stayed for the rest of the match given FLCL switched it out)

Good plays made by either player:

Seimsitoad hitting the bulky Musharna with Toxic before it went down was a quite good play, as it made it less of a threat with Toxic wearing it down, and ebeast's Sucker Punch predictions with CM Serperior. However, the former play would probably be rather routine among any skilled player in that situation.

Bad plays made by either player:

ebeast going for HP Rock with Serperior when he would've died from LO recoil if he did, instead of going for a +2 Overgrow boosted Giga Drain, which would have certainly KOed Skuntank from its middling health or the Piloswine switch-in and could have swept FLCL otherwise.
 
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Dell

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Fun battle, I'll take a shot at this.

Things that FLCL did that helped him win:

I believe that the most significant turning point that pushed the course of the battle into FLCL's favor was the superior momentum that FLCL was able to carry out on the course of the battle, and most of that certainly stems from the offensive pressure, the ability to select a favorable lead, and just how FLCL's team was able to periodically manage through a lot of the Pokemon and strategies that ebeast had. The lead decision made by FLCL was certainly a wake up call, and while it didn't particularly work out as well as FLCL would've hoped with the first turn wake from Seismitoad, the immediate power that Jynx distributed throughout that battle just simply forced ebeast to have to react to it in order to keep important members alive, something that drastically chipped away momentum early game. FLCL was certainly able to bluff sets of quite a few of his Pokemon considerably well (particularly Jynx and Samurott) which pretty much showcases that each time ebeast had some sort of misplay. Overall considering that Seismitoad was the biggest obstacle to deal with, FLCL was able set his goal on attempting to break through it by whatever means necessary. Stealth Rock would've indeed been nice for FLCL to have in this battle, but he acknowledged that the opportunities of having a safe turn off with Piloswine were very slim considering how much of a portion of ebeast's team were able to threaten Pilowine in some manner (while Carracosta, Seismitoad, Serperior, and Charizard are not entirely safe to face Piloswine at full health thanks to Piloswine's coverage and offensive presence, the ability to either hit Pilowsine super effective or target it out of its lower Special Defense would've force Piloswine to react as opposed to setting up Stealth Rock against them if it didn't want to risk losing to them unscathed as they all 2HKO). Overall, FLCL played things in a difference route in the form of pressuring ebeast's team until it was able to fall apart, and that's what gave him the biggest advantage upon this battle.

Things that ebeast did that caused him to lose:

While the first turn wake on ebeast's part was certainly a shining light for him since it gave ebeast an opportunity to utilize just what it had over FLCL's team in this battle, which is setting up win conditions, ebeast's situation was basically as skylight put it; he simply wasn't able to react to the pressure well enough, and didn't take the risks that had to be made in order to put him in a better position. A few examples include not leading out into Charizard to take an early shot of breaking through the team (or in this situation, I'd like to call it fighting fire with fire), not taking the opportunity to bring in Seismitoad or Jynx on Samurott's Aqua Jet, or going for Hidden Power Rock with Serperior when Piloswine switched in. From here, I don't think the problem like skylight mentioned had to do with being too careless, but rather being too straightforward with the plays (so if anything, I'd even say that ebeast was playing too carefully despite how weird that may sound), which allowed FLCL to take advantage of that in several ways by out-predicting the situations in response.

What ebeast could have done differently in order to win:

I think that this game would certainly be made better for ebeast if he just focused on retaining the momentum early game, and the best way possible would've been made by reacting to Samurott with something that can take advantage of it as opposed to saccing Charizard, the biggest offensive threat for his team in this battle. On another note, perhaps it would've been good if ebeast just analyzed match ups and just the dynamic of the team better towards the team preview's perspective. For example, Rotom-S is widely known only for its revenge capabilities with its Choice Scarf set, and by guessing that to be the main revenge killer of the team as a result, this would give him time to analyze what the Jynx was intended to do for FLCL's team (which would be helpful considering that typically only use offensive team uses a Choice Scarf Pokemon), and how he would work around the possibility of the Life Orb set and the possibility of matching it up as a lead. This is especially considering that by looking at the team, it was certainly FLCL's best interest to remove Seismitoad as early as possible for the rest of the team to function properly, and if ebeast took advantage of that better he would've been able to pressure FLCL better and perhaps possibly win the match.

This has been stated before, but the situation of Serperior would've definitely been a spot on choice for ebeast had he used Giga Drain, since this was the opportunity for ebeast to break through a lot of other Pokemon on FLCL's team with the amount of health he would've gained from hitting Piloswine with Giga Drain, and perhaps maybe would've been able to survive Rotom-S's Air Slash and retaliate with an Overgrow-boosted +2 Life Orb Giga Drain, giving him a slight chance of actually OHKO'ing after Stealth Rock! It would've definitely been worth the risk as that KO would perhaps turn into a potential sweep for Serperior.

Good plays made by either player:

Both players made generally good plays, but FLCL's plays were a lot more consistent as far as threat management goes, which periodically prevented ebeast's team from posing too major of a concern in almost any given situation. From that point on, it was clearly a given that team match up made the most out of the battle in FLCL's part, since aside from Seismitoad he had reasonable answers to everything else, which made things relatively straightforward after he was able to eliminate Seismitoad. ebeast was able to pose a decent offensive presence with Carracosta and Jynx. He also made some interesting plays with Seismitoad and Serperior, and for the latter things would've potentially been a lot more successful if he used Giga Drain on the turn that FLCL switched into Piloswine.

Bad plays made by either player:

As stated, FLCL made some questionable plays against Serperior that could have turn out to be a dangerous situation for him if ebeast had made the proper play at +2. Otherwise, I don't see anything too substantial of a bad play outside of ebeast not taking the opportunity to take advantage of Samurott's revenge kill on Charizard. The lead match up could have also been better for ebeast if he chose an offensive lead that could force out Jynx, despite the first turn wake up mitigating that mistake to a degree. Overall, the main decider of the outcome revolved around prediction and team match up, both of which FLCL gained superiority on.

Great battle, and it was certainly nice to analyze something that was hax-free!
 

watashi

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turn 10 was really weird since i thought it would be better for zeb to set up rocks and sacrifice toad but he chose to sacrifice swellow instead even though it would've been helpful for him against primeape, roselia, and jynx to an extent. however, treecko's play was even more weird since zeb lacked any good switch-ins to psychic. if he wanted to keep musharna healthy he should've just switched to roselia instead of baton passing. however, he still got the better end of that turn since zeb chose to switch out when in my opinion he should've stealth rocked.

if i were zeb i would have switched to muk turn 12 instead of pinsir since it's really important to keep it healthy in order to tank at least one close combat from primeape. muk was injured pretty badly and ended up not doing as much at all. of course, zeb probably anticipated a sweep and didn't expect roselia to be physically defensive but even if it wasn't pinsir wasn't going to kill primeape with quick attack with only one moxie boost.

other than that it was pretty much standard plays by both players. if i were zeb i probably would've lead with something else other than gothorita since probopass lead is so common and easy to predict.

fuk the format btw
 
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I think he was actually hoping I would lead with Probopass so that he could take it out with HP Ground. I have no idea what spread he was running on Gothorita, but heavily injuring/KOing Probopass would have given him a lot more room to fuck my team over with Swellow.

Also, I was back and forth a lot between using Psychic or Baton Pass that turn. I was considering whether or not Seismitoad would give me any problems throughout the match, and I ended up deciding it wouldn't. Then I had to figure out what to do depending on how he played that turn. If he set up Stealth Rock, I could bring in Roselia and get up a layer of Spikes. If he would have switched (which I really hadn't expected because like I said, it wasn't really a threat to my team, but thankfully he did), I could bring in something else to take on whatever he brought in. As you said, it ended up helping me a lot and got me the upper hand, so I'm glad that turn played out the way it did.
 

termi

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Huh yeah, it got really weird when Treecko had Mushy in play, as zeb did lack good answers to her (aside from the totally dead Gothorita), so he could've just spammed Psychic and put the hurt on a lot of stuff. I also found it to be really weird that zeb let his Muk stay in on Mushy for the first turn as if he was going to sac him while attempting to poison Mushy, but then decided the turn after that he wanted to switch out anyway. On that note, Treecko could've easily kept on Psychic spamming instead of Baton Passing out. Even though Seismitoad wouldn't be much of a big deal, there wasn't much that could go wrong when spamming Psychic regardless of what zeb would do.

Also, what went through zeb's head when switching in Swellow? He could've been raped there.
 

Punchshroom

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Looking at it, I think Zeb's team just has a disadvantageous matchup against Treecko in general. Zeb's answer to Musharna is Gothorita but since Tree has Baton Pass on his Mushy it couldn't be trapped. Heck, a whopping 4 members of Tree's team has switching-moves, so Goth couldn't do much of anything, as Primeape kept spamming U-turn until Goth was dead, not to mention the bad lead matchup.

While Goth did manage to cripple Probopass beyond repair (even though Tree's oversight allowed Probo to survive :p), Swellow still wouldn't have gone far against Treecko, as Kangskhan's Fake Out Liepard's Sucker Punch would stop it. though that is to a lesser extent because of Quick Attack which Zeb most likely has.

That said, Muk could've been Zeb's savior in this match, tanking Liepard, Roselia and Primeape while threatening Jynx with Shadow Sneak & Probopass with Brick Break (which I assume Zeb has, not that it matters since Probo is near dead and rightfully should've been), but Musharna is definitely a huge thorn in Zeb's side.

Turn 10 was weird as people have said, I think Zeb figured Swellow's best use in the match would be to hit Mushy as hard as it can so that Kangaskhan can pick it off. If Musharna had chosen to heal this would have been a decent play (if Seismitoad's Special Defense hadn't dropped I'm skeptical whether Zeb would've still gone for this play), but alas the (frankly unexpected) Baton Pass cost Zeb's Swellow for pretty much nothing.

Either way, while Treecko had solid control over the entire match, it was still a decent battle to watch.

Edit: @Treecko Whoops you're right, Zeb had the Kanga, not you (this is what happens when I could only watch the battle once). I still believe you could lure a Brave Bird / survive a Facade with your Roselia though to kill it sooner since Zeb doesn't know it's physically defensive, or played some mindgames with Liepard using Encore and/or Pursuit.
 
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I didn't have a Kangaskhan @Punchshroom, so uhh... Swellow was a really big threat to my team once Probopass was out of the way. And yeah, he undoubtedly had Quick Attack, which meant Liepard wasn't doing a whole lot to it either. He also didn't have Brick Break on Muk to my knowledge. He went for Ice Punch vs. Probopass.
 

jake

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Also, what went through zeb's head when switching in Swellow? He could've been raped there.
My Seismitoad was Choice Specs, and I didn't want to give Roselia the opportunity to set up. I thought for sure his absolute best play was going to be going into Roselia, because Seismitoad does jack all and he gets up more hazards, so I doubled back into Swellow to activate the orb and hopefully KO some stuff. If he CMed or used Moonlight that play it would have been an ok move too, but I really wanted him to go into Roselia so I could take a big swing of momentum. Of course, that didn't really work out.

I definitely made a few questionable plays; staying in on Musharna was a pretty meh one since Muk was so important and I don't really have a whole lot of justification for that apart from wanting to tounch it or do something unexpected. I was fairly lax mentally throughout the whole game which lead to a handful of poor or mediocre plays. I also didn't take into account my winning scenario; by the time I determined Primeape could win the game for him, I kind of already lost it by sacking all of my Fighting-type resists.

Getting a poison with the Shadow Sneak on Primeape would've given me a decent shot, though. Kanga could potentially win the game at that point, with the extra damage and with the chance of a crit or two. Of course I'd still have to be lucky with the way I played, but eh.
 

jake

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Except... He wasn't? idk maybe I'm missing something here but usually when a Pokemon gains lefties recovery and switches moves that means he's not using Choice Specs.
I never attacked with Seismitoad, nor did I have Leftovers recovery when I was attacked. My Seismitoad was Choice Specs. Not his Musharna, which is where I think your confusion lies.
 

soulgazer

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FLCL game plan was most probably a late game Musharna sweep, and he suceeded at doing so to be honest. When Zeb sacked his Zangoose to FLCL's Destiny Bond Gardevoir, it was pretty much game since FLCL's Musharna could survive easily anything from the rest of Zeb's team and set up for a sweep. All he needed was to bring it later on after crippling or even removing Zeb's Musharna (which he did) and Piloswine ( which could have kept Musharna under 60% easily). What Zeb could have done to win (or have a chance to it) was to double switch on something else than Zangoose, which threatened most of FLCL's team, such as Emboar which probably wouldn't have done much and Zeb also had Sawk for Absol anyway.

Some of the good plays that I could see was when FLCL used Destiny Bond with Gardevoir on Musharna's switch. This way he was guaranteed to take something faster down with him or even continue to spam strong Psychics. As for bad plays, well Zeb did quite a few: sacking Zangoose, letting Sawk get wear down a lot when it could've potentially check Absol, letting FLCL weaken the Pokemon he had to take on Musharna and using Rain Dance in the last turns, making Emboar's Flare Blitz completly useless.

TLDR: FLCL controlled the game from turn 4, Zeb choked as much as I do and Musharna is a blob.
 
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ded.

K 1 more attempt to keep this alive (cause i think its a cool project)

me vs DTC!

In the end I prevailed over him, but there were great plays on both sides, misplays as well! so Soulgazer , what do you think??? :)

also other ppl
 

soulgazer

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lel i think dtc got rekt
p.s. the textbox was buggy


Raseri's game plan was to:
[13:00] <~Raseri> my gameplan was to defeat his 6 pokemon
[13:00] <~Raseri> before he defeated mine
Which he suceeded to do. To be honest all he had to do was to remove Kangaskhan and Shiftry so Jynx and Charizard could easily clean the rest with the right move. Signal beam Musharna was pretty helpful in this game since it lured in and removed Shiftry, which was probably one of the biggest threat to its team. What DTC could have done to win was to keep Shiftry healthy as much as possible and only make the switch in when Musharna was weakened by something else like Scolipede. I don't think DTC needed Scolipede outside of that one lair of Toxic Spikes and hitting Musharna hard with a Megahorn.

I didn't see a lot of really good plays in that battle though, since Raseri kinda played this game safely and haxing DTC here and there, while DTC did some bad ones, like using Toxic with Alomomola on turn 3 when the only Pokemon on Raseri's side not affected by Toxic Spikes was Charizard, which will never switch on an Alomomola, sacking its Shiftry too early and using Giga Drain with Ludicolo when it woke up when pretty much nothing on Raseri's team wanted to take a Hydro Pump outside of Jynx, which had to switch out anyway since it was locked on Lovely Kiss most likely. Almost forgot to add neither of them set their Stealth Rock in that game, which could've helped both of them in the long run (especially you, DTC).


TL DR: Charizard taking some souls yet again~
 
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i wanted to keep scolipede alive because of the treat of sawk. i dealt with sawk by switching in momo then switching out to scoli if sawk uses cc, but if scoli is dead, i can't do anything about it besides hope for low damage rolls.

anyways i agree that i did make some misplays, but i disagree that there weren't any good plays in the match. luring shiftry in and killing it with signal beam musharna was a very good plan by raseri, and he also played the specs charizard very well.

also the worst play imo was me eq'ing charizard. i think i wanted to hit a switchin hard, but the safer option was just to either set up SR or rock blast to get the threat of zard off the field. i was sort of out of options this far into the battle because of my previous moves, but still.
 
Yeah, I think that there were plenty of good plays in the match for sure. Raseri's win condition was pretty clear from the get go: Charizard decimated the majority of DTC's team outside of Golem (even though Charizard ended up beating that lol) and Alomomola to an extent (ended up killing that too BROKENZARD). For DTC, Shiftry was going to be really important, assuming it was mixed. It single-handedly could have beaten Musharna, Regirock, Carracosta, and Jynx if Early Bird. It was pretty unfortunate for DTC that Raseri's Musharna was carrying Signal Beam because the game could have ended very differently had it have been mono-attacking. On that same note, Musharna could have done a lot to DTC's team, but getting the threat of Shiftry out of the way as early as possible was really really important and definitely the right play to make there.

DTC's first priority should really have been getting Stealth Rock on the field, seeing how dangerous Charizard was for him as well as the two or three (depending on whether or not Shiftry had Sucker Punch) different priority users that could force it out. Turn nine when Regirock was out against Scolipede would have been the perfect opportunity to set it up. At that point, a layer of Toxic Spikes was up, which means that Raseri couldn't tried to set up Carracosta (not that it wants to set u against Golem anyways), and Scolipede could have been useful later on for some damage against Charizard. DTC also probably could have Hydro Pumped on turn twelve under the relatively safe assumption that Jynx was Scarf because at that point he was kind of at a disadvantage after losing Shiftry, but to be honest, I probably would have Giga Drained too. Really, I think if he'd have gone to Golem on turn nine, DTC would have probably ended up winning. The Earthquake against Charizard was just kind of the nail in the coffin at that point, especially because it didn't look like Charizard was going to be of much use anymore against a Golem, Alomomola, and Kangaskhan which are covered pretty well with the remainder of Raseri's team.

I also don't blame DTC for Dark Pulsing the Musharna because I haven't seen Signal Beam Musharna in months. Definitely worked out well for Raseri in the end though.
 
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