Metagame NP: ZU Stage 2: La tribu de Dana - Indeedee-F and Sawsbuck ban #13

[Tuthur]

​

Since its introduction a couple months ago, Stonjourner has been a metagame defining offensive threat, due to the lack of Rock-resist in the tier, with a total absence of Fighting-types and a lack of bulky Steel-types that can withstand its powerful Body Press and Earthquake. With its high attack stats and above average Speed tier, letting it 2HKO almost the entire tier without a boosting item and outspeed prominent offensive threats like Banette and Gothitelle, Stonjourner is able to run a wide range of sets such as Choice Band, Stealth Rock + 3 Attacks, IronPress, Choice Scarf, and Rock Polish. With this excellent offensive profile, Stonjourner is hard to play around in games and finds many opportunities to pick KOs throughout a game.

The main defensive counterplay to Stonjourner has been relying on physically bulky Ground-types such as Toedscool, Sandygast, Hippopotas, and Mubdray. However, Toedscool gets 2HKOed by Heavy Slam after minor chip or if Stonjourner carries a boosting item, making it quite unreliable. Moreover, other Ground-types are often ran without hazard removal, due to the tier lack of removal options that aren't Toedscool, and lack passive recovery from Leftovers, being forced to run Eviolite, and with the popularity of Spikes users such as Glalie, Toedscool, and Vespiquen, they tend to be always forced to recover, letting the Stonjourner user retain momentum if not able to just brute force through them with enough patience.

However, Stonjourner has some exploitable weaknesses, most notably its abysmal special bulk. Any faster special attacker, such as Calyrex, Lumineon, and Dedenne, can threaten Stonjourner from an OHKO, keeping it in check. This also limits Stonjourner's ability to come on the field, even on walls, as any special moves will seriously weaken Stonjourner. Stonjourner also lacks room to play around status and misses some OHKO, this lets Pokemon such as Crocalor and Swalot cripple it with burn and paralysis, respectively, hindering Stonjourner's ability to make progress later in the game. Crocalor can also use terastalization to wall Stonjourner and has been very common lately. Likewise, fatter teams have started running Bronzor which completely walls Stonjourner, even if it comes with extreme passivity issues.

• Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 77 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 77 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 81. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 77 GXE will suffice.

Minimum Games Needed

GXE	minimum games
77	50
77.2	49
77.4	48
77.6	47
77.8	46
78	45
78.2	44
78.4	43
78.6	42
78.8	41
79	40
79.2	39
79.4	38
79.6	37
79.8	36
80	35
80.2	34
80.4	33
80.6	32
80.8	31
81	30

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be ZUSJ. For example, I might signup with the ladder account ZUSJ Tuthur.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• The aspect being tested, Stonjourner, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• The suspect test will go on for about 12 days, lasting until September 1st at 11:00 PM GMT +2, and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message me or anyone else on the ZU council. Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

Avoid posting one-liners or posts that do not contribute to any discussion. They will be deleted.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

The timing of this suspect test makes no sense. There's still the wake of the Home update that has yet to fully hit ZU, as well as next month's DLC update. Why would you make a suspect test (not even a full 2 weeks) right before September's shifts + another DLC? I get that the sporadic nature of updates and ZU being the last to get them makes it difficult to plan suspect tests. Nevertheless, that is no excuse to do a poorly timed suspect test. If Stonjourner is thought to be suspect worthy, then just vote on it. I'm sure you could probably extend the vote to ZUPL players, too; it's a fake metagame anyways who cares.

I already made reqs but this is stupid. The day I vote is the day of a new ZU meta, given we have rises or drops, which in turn is basically the prima facie for a council vote. I will abstain from voting if I believe the September metagame is in anyway different from todays, which is almost certainly guaranteed to be the truth as long as one mon rises / drops.

reqs. Tuthur post the reqs thread you bum I swear you do nothing around here

 

[Tuthur]

The timing of this suspect test makes no sense. There's still the wake of the Home update that has yet to fully hit ZU, as well as next month's DLC update. Why would you make a suspect test (not even a full 2 weeks) right before September's shifts + another DLC? I get that the sporadic nature of updates and ZU being the last to get them makes it difficult to plan suspect tests. Nevertheless, that is no excuse to do a poorly timed suspect test. If Stonjourner is thought to be suspect worthy, then just vote on it. I'm sure you could probably extend the vote to ZUPL players, too; it's a fake metagame anyways who cares.

I already made reqs but this is stupid. The day I vote is the day of a new ZU meta, given we have rises or drops, which in turn is basically the prima facie for a council vote. I will abstain from voting if I believe the September metagame is in anyway different from todays, which is almost certainly guaranteed to be the truth as long as one mon rises / drops.

reqs. Tuthur post the reqs thread you bum I swear you do nothing around here

View attachment 544676

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/alt-identification-stonjourner-suspect-test.3726562/

We are fully aware shifts and DLC will affect Stonjourner's viability. However, that Pokemon has been extremely polarizing and a council vote wouldn't have been fitting for it. Timing suspect tests with shifts every month is almost impossible, especially when we also get stupidly broken drops that require a couple weeks of play test to tier correctly. You are fully aware that inviting ZUPL players to vote with us is not something that follows standard tiering procedure, preventing players who did play another gen in ZUPL / did not play at all from voting on a community based vote (as opposed to council based) is disgenuine. You can definitely vote Abstain if you think the metagame is significantly different with September's shifts, I just wanted to clarify why we are holding a suspect test with this timing.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Small Team Dump for Sussy:

Scarf Caly Balance:


Earlier in chat today, wooper posted this team and asked for improvements. I made the above team as a result, and I really liked it! wooper feel free to reach out if you need any more help with learning the tier or teambuilding, and I'm happy to lend a hand :)

Overall Problem with Original Build:
While the defensive core is fine, the team relies too heavily on a two-mon offensive core that do not compliment eachother. Both Dragonair and Calyrex are hard walled by Crocalor, and neither force progress through means like item removal, status, nor Taunt. That is one example, but in general the team is slow with a weak means of priority and not a good overall offensive presence that fails to complement the defensive core.

Changes:
to - This change offers a valuable new defensive typing while retaining the role of a physical, priority-based sweeper. The Pawniard set I opted for includes both Taunt and Swords Dance, so it can force progress on most walls mid-game while retaining the role of a late-game priority sweeper. Pawniard's Dark typing is also essential in this metgame so that something like Tera Dark Banette or booster Calyrex cannot 6-0. Tera Fire is also great so late-game you can dodge burn and not succumb to Hex Drakloak builds.

Calm Mind + 3 Attacks to Choice Scarf + Calm Mind - Without a scarfer, you risk any random Tera sweeper snowballing in this metagame. Plus, Choice Scarf Calyrex can still sweep late-game versus more passive builds, and with Trick, you can stallbreak earlier if necessary. Most of the time, STAB coverage is all you need for revenge killing, and sweeping with Psychic as a wincon is also easy to play around. Tera Steel is opted for because of the good general resistances, and in a stall-ish matchup, it's necessary to check Toxic.

Basic EV spreads to mixed bulk - This metagame offers an unusual amount of mixed attackers; why not utilize Eviolite to the fullest and do mixed bulk walls? Both of these mons can utilize mixed bulk to survive more hits and take on more foes with little to no negligible difference to your main checks. The mixed bulk can make a huge difference when Mareanie is needed to softcheck Scovillian, and Mudbray to tank a Dazzling Gleam from Shanaynay.

Teras - Small updates. Tera Ground on Fletchinder is a must if you want to burn Stonjourner and Mudbray AND live to tell the tale (I also added Will-O-Wisp over U-Turn, because you need that burn to make the most out of this mon, not the pivoting). Tera Dragon on Mareanie is a great sun counter whilst adding an Electric resistance; I understand how that resistance is paper thin when you're now weak to Fairy, but this is a small bonus and not the main selling point.

Replays:

I literally smoked 5Dots so many times he turned into 12dots LMAO.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9zu-1928879622-kj78i1bl5fxen07gb9bfuj5mq612bi8pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9zu-1928872472-3jmcq2aiha02g2q86fx6bvh6ngo88i9pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9zu-1928866536-e64pdbda7g1ix2c3404ph728p7tpxgvpw

Pawn into Caly sweep:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9zu-1928869480

Pivoting around with Mare till Trick Caly sets up with CM:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9zu-1928888366-u9whmpszjdpd4gbgikqjfb2l9kvqd6epw


The value of mixed bulk walls:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9zu-1928913206-drv5re2iwd2nxq68u231mqgmgkr2qwbpw


CB "Teach Me How to Wuggy" Wugtrio Balance:


This is the solo team I made reqs with. It, like the team above, is a 4 mon defensive core + 2 mon offensive duo. This core is more hazard focused (despite lacking Stealth Rock) and does a great job making way for one of the offensive wincons to sweep. That, or the reverse happens, where the wincons poke holes through the opposing team so that something like Unaware Crocalor is unkillable come the late game. Vespiquen-Crocalor-Toadscool-Swalot are able to wall most threats, with some vulnerabilities. Most strong Psychic-types are taken out by Vespiquen's stellar bulk and Crocalor's defense versus setup attempts, but Trick is a tough pill to swallow. Speaking of swallowing, that's why we have Sticky Hold on Swalot! Tera Dragon on Swalot and Vespiquen help in the sun matchup, and Toadscool and Crocalor are as simple as they can be. Banette can get in easily to spread Knock Off and later use its full-HP-bulk to nearly guarantee a Swords Dance. From there, you have two priority moves and Tera Dark to buff your sweeping. Wugtrio is mostly a revenge killer, although it can start to wear down Lumineon with Throat Chop. Lumineon can be tough for this team with the wrong plays, so it's best to be careful with Wugtrio in that matchup and plan around the Banette sweep.

Double Terrain HO, or Not Actually Double Terrain because It's just Lead Pincurchin and No Legitimate Terrain Sweepers bar Thwackey:


More of a fun build but with a serious application; Screens HO can still exist without Light Clay. This Drakloak set is basically a nerfed OU set, with Eject Button allowing both a safe passage and a generous amount of screen time, although it's usually just one over the other, not both. Curse makes it easier to bring a sweeper in and also helps with stallbreaking defensive sweepers. Drakloak also functions as a shoddy spinblocker and revenge killer, as STAB Draco Meteor isn't too shabby. Pincurchin is an underrated Spikes lead. It can force crucial chip damage early on, with or without spikes, and Memento too can be awesome support here. The last support mon is Murkrow, which OHKOes offensive Stonjourner after Spikes, and is generally a great revenge killer. The sweepers are based. Swords Dance Trailblaze Thwackey just 6-0s a lot of teams. Tera Steel means you still have the nerfed opposing Earthquake + good resistances + Toxic / Clear Smog immunity. The coverage, while lacking a strong STAB option, means you hit everything very hard with a lot of utility; forcing Knock Off on most walls is huge, and Drain Punch's recovery means you won't be as easily chipped off by priority revenge killers. Calyrex is a simple Weakness Policy bait set, and Swalot is the stallbreaker set with Tera Dragon for, wait for it, sun.

 

[Lizardu'']

Hi, i will give the team than i'm using to chill on ladder for the suspect. I built it quickly so there is probably many threats/problems, but it's a funny HO & games are fast.

HO DD Kloak


My main idea was to try something with dragon dance drakloak, with its good stats/typing & powerful stabs, it seemed interesting to me in practice.

So the leader of this team, i play 2 ghost stabs to not be dependent to the tera, imo it still important to have tera blast + phantom, phantom still stronger when the oppo can't take advantage about this 2 turns move, & tera don't make contact + a 1 turn move. He is also a spinblocker. You can play substitute over tera blast too, too set up on vespiquen or on a switch-in.

He is for me one of the best suicide lead, the power of his head smash can force opponents to switch out on their bulky ground, like mudbray/sandy/hippo, which are slower than max speed sudo (except offensive mudbray) & you can set up more hazards. His atrocious rock power gives him a guaranteed pressure on fletch even burned to punish a defog & you have the tera ghost to block spinners. Possible to play earthquake/wood hammer over sucker, but i prefer pressure fastest mons & cheap them.

Why not take a bit of ice for this summer & all of their wildfires in the world. Ice resistances are not very present in this tier, bulky waters are 2, mareanie & lumineon but we have freeze dry for the coverage, to touch fire, we have surf & a potential tera to beat a dedenne in 1v1 & beat easier the tera steels. His main role is to take a physical move, be fast & do correct damages on the majority of the tier.

The megamind to serve you, it's a sub cm dkiss sweeper like we already seen with morgrem & hypno, but him has very good stats for this role, it can sub with tera on knock off toedscool & set up easily. Tera fairy gives you a resi bug which is a x4 weakness before tera, so we can set up on every u-turn & get an extra recovery.

Pikablue, probably an underrated mon with it's ability, it has the equivalent of ~84 base stat, which is not great but not bad, it's enough to do good damages if you can't the set up the belly drum & with his good natural bulk & eviolite, I can assure you it's not so hard to set up him. At +6 he is around 1200 atk so gl to stop it except with a good water resi like calyrex or thwackey for example but if we weaken them a bit with hazard stack or cheap damages :

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thwackey: 147-174 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Marill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Calyrex: 133-157 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

it can be dangerous in late game if people aren't careful.

To finish, why not using the accused, it gets us some speed control, with a powerful heavy slam accompanied by the tera steel for more damages with hazards damages & some potential 2HKOs on bulky grounds etc.. You can play another tera & tera blast to get another coverage, but the best still heavy slam tera steel for me and rock blast if you don't want to miss or if you need a 125 base power move to clutch a game.

I don't have replays of my suspect than i did not finish for the moment, so trust me & play this team because we hate fat teams with swalot, crocalor & all these shits. I'm open to opinions if people want to improve and push this team further.

 

[plznostep]

Is Stonjourner Broken?

I got reqs for this annoying suspect tests and now i get to talk about whether i find the stony j broken. The fundamentals of Stonjourner is simple. It is a relatively fast and strong Rock-type with amazing physical attack and coverage with Stone Edge + Earthquake + Heavy Slam. It's set diversity is also amazing, Choice Scarf, Choice Band, IronPress, Offensive Stealth Rocker, Rock Polish (which all has different tera's depending on what you wanna hit), etc are all viable sets that it can run and each one can be incredibly threatening in their own right, especially Rock Polish and Scarf which makes it outspeed the entire unboosted tier, making it very hard to revenge kill. It also boasts superb physical bulk allowing it to check Pokemon like Banette, but it's special bulk is downright horrible and it is commonly OHKO'd by any special attack in the tier.

What are the main Stonjourner counters/checks in the tier?



All of these Pokemon are commonly referred to as Stonjourner answers, with some being much more reliable then others. Three here have reliable recovery and all must run Eviolite which makes them quite easy to chip down overtime via the use of hazards, an incredibly common strategy at the moment with Crocalor being incredibly hard to break for most teams and with the amount of NFE's roaming around, not everything has the luxury of running Heavy-Duty Boots, not to mention the current situation with hazard control which is partly due to all hazard control struggling into Stonjourner, which means most teams just don't run hazard control anymore, meaning if you get hazards up, they are likely to stay up for the entire game, especially with spinblockers for Toedscool, the most common form of hazard removal. Turns out hazards is what helps Stonjourner break these otherwise problematic Pokemon however. Stonjourner makes great use of Tera Steel thanks to its immense weight and getting STAB on a 120 base power move + hazards makes breaking even the Pokemon with reliable recovery quite easy once you get rocks + a few layers of spikes up, which with the current condition of hazards in the tier, is what you probably want to do anyway since they are just so good at breaking down bulkier archetypes of teams and supporting Pokemon like Banette wonderfully.

Calculations

(Assuming Tera Steel since Stonjourner makes incredibly good use of it)

Against Mudbray:
252 Atk Tera Steel Stonjourner Heavy Slam (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 144-169 (41.8 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(fine enough, but this is a one time switch thanks to Mudbray lacking recovery)

Against Quilladin:
252 Atk Tera Steel Stonjourner Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Quilladin : 96-114 (29.4 - 34.9%) -- 10.1% chance to 3HKO
(without hazards, Quilladin can beat Stonjourner, however;)

252 Atk Tera Steel Stonjourner Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Quilladin at 90%: 96-114 (29.4 - 34.9%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes
(with the slightest of chip, Stonjourner is able to 2HKO with Stealth Rock and 2 layers of spikes, and this is usually gonna be worse in a game since Quilladin does tend to get chipped down quite a bit over time and invites Pokemon like Vespiquen in to Spike more, not to mention Quilladin isn't exactly splashable in the first place. But, Quilladin is one of the better answers to Stonjourner in the tier.)

Against Sandygast:
252 Atk Tera Steel Stonjourner Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Sandygast: 106-126 (33.7 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Sandygast is able to take Stonjourners attacks relatively well without hazards up)

252 Atk Tera Steel Stonjourner Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Sandygast at 90%: 106-126 (33.7 - 40.1%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
(it gets way worse if hazards are still up though, with the slightest chip and some hazards up, Stonjourner breaks them)

Against Hippopotas:
252 Atk Tera Steel Stonjourner Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 108-127 (31.7 - 37.3%) -- 86% chance to 3HKO
(Hippopotas is also able to deal with Stonjourner relatively well)

252 Atk Tera Steel Stonjourner Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas at 90%: 108-127 (31.7 - 37.3%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes
(Hippopotas sadly cannot take on Stonjourner with hazards up and a bit of chip, Hippopotas is another Pokemon that invites in common spikers like Vespiquen as well so its not unreasonable to assume that hazards will be up with some layers of Spikes as well.)

Against Krokorok
-1 252 Atk Tera Steel Stonjourner Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 32 Def Eviolite Krokorok: 150-177 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Krokorok doesn't really take Stonjourners attacks very well at all but if Stonjourner has not Terastallized then it avoids the 2HKO, Krokorok also outspeeds and hits Stonjourner for a nice Earthquake which is great chip on it for Pokemon like Banette primarily.)

Against Toedscool
252 Atk Tera Steel Stonjourner Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Toedscool: 163-193 (57.3 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Toedscool is absolutely destroyed by Stonjourner, get a predict wrong and you have just lost Toedscool and your form of hazard removal for Crocalor.)

I think a good point to bring up here is how Stonjourner forces these NFE grounds onto teams, although you usually want a Volt blocker for Pokemon like Dedenne, these Pokemon usually cannot afford to go Specially Defensive or they risk getting 2HKO'd by Stonjourner's Heavy Slam naturally which is a byproduct of Stonjourners presence in the tier.

So my conclusion? You can come to your own points but in my personal opinion, Stonjourner is not healthy for the tier. Yes, it can be an important defensive backbone on teams, but Stonjourner's set versatility and raw power that it can use to get past its common answers can be incredibly troubling for a lot of teams, forcing them to run these NFE grounds that are incredibly easy to chip down overtime into 2HKO range thanks to hazards and their item slot being taken up by Eviolite meaning no passive recovery or Heavy-Duty Boots. I think its just not a healthy dynamic for the tier, especially since Stonjourner can MU relatively well into the scarfers of the tier itself with Tera Steel helping with Calyrex and Thwackey, and either way Rock Polish can help it boost past these scarfers anyway, with plenty of opportunities to set up thanks to its superb physical bulk allowing it to check just about every physical attacker available in the tier, or it can just run a Scarf itself and outspeed the entirety of the unboosted tier anyways.​

 

[risin_glory]

Heyu ZU. With and around, has started getting some innovative attention. I also hadn't tried banette all that much, so I decided to try building a team with those.

KNOCK SPAM BO:

The idea is to use the bulk + hazard stack + spamming knock to get enough chip dmg to clean late game with gastly/banette


One of the breakers/cleaners of the team with a strong knock off, which is a really big merit this gen where it is rather scarce.


Psychic types beware. Spreading poison and spamming knock while also wrecking vesp and linda, it is a great utility mon and has naturally great typing. Dpunch is solely to handle pawniard (that may be troublesome for this team) and tera steel jumpluff, thwackey etc., while also providing some recovery.


Speed control of this team and primary late game cleaner. Trick can also help cripling trouble.


Rocker and one of the primary walls of the team. Losing toxic and psywave makes it pretty passive, but it certainly appreciates the lack of knock off in general. Hypnosis is literally what u would call hit or miss but can be sweet when it does in fact hit.


Specially tailored ev spread to add some phy bulk to the team. It speed creeps toedscool for obvious reasons and has enough spa to ohko jumpluff after chip and 2hko crocolor. Taunt is helpful in general. Phy bulk and tera steel to tackle sd jumpluff and dd tropius.


Yeah, idt I need to say anything here. Just your avg sv zu spinner cum spiker.

REPLAYS

(Team has underwent further fine tuning since g1 so a few things may differ between first and last replays.)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9zu-1931819647 (vs ZUSJ sinnabyss)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9zu-1931878018 (vs Box133)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9zu-1931956656 (vs Tuthur, ofc lost but I think I could win if I played a bit diff)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9zu-1931962987 (vs ZUSJ Scarf K)

 

[Cepha]

Hi all, with the vote on Stonjourner imminent and the DLC dropping soon, I would like to share a team I've been using lately for suspect laddering as I've noticed that is a seriously good wall breaker at the moment in the present Stonjourner meta and wanted to draw attention to this!

Specs Drakloak BO

- https://pokepast.es/19a947dab0317ee3

A pretty simple team with a core of 2 offensive Pokémon and 4 defensive Pokémon.

- Offensive stealth rock is a really nice lead as I'm sure I don't need to overstate. Edgequake and often 120 BP heavy slam is strong coverage into a lot of the meta, allowing you to consistently win the lead match-up and set up stealth rock. Sash is also nice as people have taken to running special coverage on Pokémon that would not normally run it, also great into sun HO as Stonjourner will beat lead / and OHKO the usual seeing a kill after.

- The star of the show, I like this one so much because it has a speed tier just about faster than and only outsped by , and . The tier is sorely lacking in high SpDef so specs draco meteor can easily 2HKO anything not named , and since most aren't running rest at the moment and may be taking stealth rock chip in addition, it's not a consistent switch-in. Notably you 2HKO even the most SpDef of due to unaware ignoring the stat drop. Tera fire flamethrower is also very good for a clean 2HKO on and resisting fairy STAB from a healthy .

- The tier's best glue, being able to deny Pokémon like , , double dance , , , dragon dance (A much weaker set in my experience!), and is huge for preventing the opponent from removing your offensive Pokémon too early and so brilliant support for our specs .

- Toxic spam! Toxic and infestation + protect is a nice combo regardless, but has the added bonus of walling (I have yet to see a substitute but that could beat this set in theory). 's passive damage is invaluable chip that will help to pick up KOs. Infestation catching an incoming can also do a nice 40% before they can switch as a lot of are currently running a set of thunder wave, encore, sludge bomb, and ice beam / giga drain and so can't really hit or recover against .

- Also valuable for spreading chip damage via toxic and a nice slow pivot to ease getting or in. As I alluded to earlier, I feel as though the meta is trying to fit a way to beat wherever possible, and that's what I've done here with clicking tera blast ground in a pinch to OHKO.

- He spin. Yea.

Replays:

Suspect isn't quite done as I lost a few (A couple to being nicely outplayed, more than enough to awful luck) but it's been going well with this team on the whole. Here's some of what I have to show for it:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9zu-1931844047-u63ttp9tv1uhzc5s09fvomaw3kf07d4pw - Versus Ciro Napoli.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9zu-1931324354-87j7lzbf90p7jinz76810qnn2o4bjylpw - Tera ground Vespiquen in action.

 

[Tuthur]

Tier shifts happened!
+
-

The council will most likely act on some of these drops; so don't take them too much in consideration when voting on Stonjourner.

 

[Yoshikitty64]

hot damn! indeedee-f is here to add to our growing collection of psychics. it will be banned probs bc it's actually got good speed
sawsbuck's totally going. i cannot see a pokemon this fast and strong and haxy staying in the tier.
ampharos'll probably go bye bye. new highest special attack in the tier
rotom-fan's a scary jerry. it's the new bulkiest pokemon in the tier and it has great special attack
i can actually see camerupt being a good new addition that won't be too terrifying. stonjourner's probably just gonna make it less relevant
luxray's back, and he'll probably be as good as he was before.
dunsparce is also back, and he'll also likely continue being zygarde-complete but tinier.
how has carkol not dropped yet. it will not be good.
glimmet's probably also not going to be great. it's just not really fast and strong enough. it'll be an alright lead tho

so yeah that's a tally of 4 broken, 5 fine. i'm not that experienced with the tier so sorry if this is misinformation

 

[Cepha]

is going to be unhealthy in this meta!

The absence of is going to be felt across the tier big time, especially with the drop of meaning toxic spike poison is going to be something to take much more into consideration when building with hazard stack in mind. I think might take off as the premier grounded poison since while one's own can fill the role, doesn't have the longevity of or before it and so is more likely to appear as a staple lead of HO or, more generally, hazard stack. can more freely now click toxic as there is no longer a consistent switch-in in ; however, it is also threatened by many of the Pokémon that have recently dropped - , , , , and potentially (Depending on whether or not is carrying a water move) can all threaten it out. Also, if is our token toxic spike absorber, it can't click infestation so freely as you risk the opponent setting up a toxic spike with an incoming , forcing you to let something get poisoned since and can't exactly switch in to pivot back to . So it isn't all clear sailing for .

To go into more depth on a point just mentioned, 's presence is also big in that it is a serious threat to , which is naturally slower than and threatened heavily by rock STAB from base 105 SpA, seriously hindering how effective it is as a pivot. can switch in on toxic to absorb it or U-turn to set up a toxic spike, gaining momentum either way. 's naturally high SpA and hazard setting is also a massive threat to the tier's best glue, . has itself been cited as an unhealthy presence in the meta but since it may now be better running HDB to avoid excessive hazard chip and is threatened by rock STAB from which can switch into flamethrower or wisp easily, this is called into question.

As for the other new Pokémon...

will easily become the tier's new best psychic type scarfer, with a better damage output and speed tier then everything else so far, in addition to a nice secondary normal STAB and passable coverage in dazzling gleam that is lacked by . It can run trick and even the trick + calm mind set has been seen running lately, or just calm mind by itself, to great effect. I can definitely see this Pokémon being banworthy.

is a welcome presence back to the tier and also another factor in keeping in check. Can absorb burn and gain momentum on , threatening an easy 2HKO with tera normal façade to boot. Speed tier is nice but exploitable enough that can't tear through the tier, even if , a good physical check to , does end up getting banned. Definitely not banworthy.

will definitely be irritating with a choice scarf as you outspeed fast, frail Pokémon that currently like to run band or specs, like and respectively, and can threaten them with an OHKO or 2HKO. In the case of the 2HKO, has a 60% chance to go unpunished if headbutt was clicked, or it can run body slam as normal STAB to spread debilitating paralysis in addition to damage. Double-edge is also a strong normal STAB from a respectable base 100 attack on the scarf set, and the recoil can be offset with horn leech later on. Horn leech is also the reason why life orb + SD may turn out to be a threatening set that can break through anything not named . In addition, can either be lucked out of action with headbutt, and / or can run STAB façade to punish for burning it. Finally, thunder wave + headbutt is another potential option, creating an irritating paraflinch set that can even more reliably break past a would-be check than just headbutt alone. has a lot going for it and presently the best check to it is looking to be ; maybe not inherently banworthy, but certainly going to be one people complain about.

is going to be manageable given that has a strong foothold in the meta right now, making rather tera-reliant in that match-up. It is a rocker that can threaten and is another factor in keeping in check but given that it is slow and quite easily exploited given the base typing (Even with solid rock) I see it having no problem fitting into the tier.

is a great new check to Pokémon like specs and has an above average BST for the tier. Has very respectable bulk and can run HDB so that it can remain a reliable switch-in to the Pokémon it is intended to check. Alternatively, it can run AV to be a very potent slow, specially defensive pivot with volt switch, but this is more reliant on the rest of the team and strong hazard control in what is soon to be a centralised meta, so HDB will probably be better. also has a very solid base 115 SpA and decent coverage in dazzling gleam and focus blast. Finally, static is gonna be an annoying punish to U-turn, to the further detriment of , , and . I'm not sure right now if will end up being too much for the tier, but it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility.

is, finally, easily the most broken new toy we've received. Great speed tier and natural bulk, earthquake immunity even with tera allowing it to leverage tera steel (Incidentally walling all but IronPress should that not be banned). Can spread debilitating status through will-o-wisp, thunder wave or discharge, or can run a sub + nasty plot set to take advantage of passive Pokémon like , and the like. Scarf or specs I don't think will take off simply because I think nasty plot or status support with HDB are much stronger in a hazard-centric meta (Especially relevant for the specs set, I think, which is only really better into ) though avoiding spike damage and toxic spike poison regardless of tera due to levitate is nice so I may be dead wrong here. But I see this being an unhealthy presence in the meta for sure.

 

[plznostep]

First Impressions on Drops

- This is probably gonna be broken between its Agility sets and its Magnetic Flux sets, highest SpA in the tier combined with good bulk in general with the electric typing being nice for Rotom-Fan now also seem nice.

- Very glad to have this, an actual Ground-type is here and its Dual Stab combination is pretty hard to switch into as well, this mon makes Dedenne cry and can check Rotom-Fan fairly well. Trick Room users are eating up too with this.

- This is overwhelmly broken, its like Girafarig on steroids and should not be allowed to stay under any circumstances.

- Luxray is back, Gut's will probably not be great but people are throwing out special offensive sets which can be neat, intimidate pivot is probably solid as well. Otherwise nothing really of note.

- This mon is meta defining, lots of set diversity here and is probably behind Indeedee-F as one of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier. It's typing is amazing and Levitate has a great use now with Tera Steel which helps with Indeedee-F, Sawsbuck, Dunsparce, and Stonjourner and other Tera options help Rotom-Fan break through many checks it has.

- Another Pokemon who is likely to be banned in my opinion, Swords Dance is very strong once setup with an amazing base 95 speed tier and Scarf cleans games incredibly well and can cheese you with Serene Grace Headbutts which can be really strong once Tera Normal comes out. I don't see this staying sadly.

- Pleasantly surprised by this Pokemon so far, it's bulk is really good and its one of the few mons i've noticed does okay into Sawsbuck, although it must watch out for Stomping Tantrum. Another spinner is appreciated and i'm not sure whether i like Eviolite or Heavy-Duty Boots more since Carkoals bulk is already really good at base and its forced out by some rockers so it would appreciate not having to worry about hazards to come in on stuff like Vespiquen.

- The mon everyone dreads is back. As always it's really bulky, one of the other mons capable of handling all the broken guys running around just through sheer bulk and can spread paralysis and put up Stealth Rock really easily. Overall just as annoying as it was last time.

- Hyper Offense just got a really good tool, especially with the loss of Swalot making Toxic Spikes particularly potent. It hits very hard with a 105 speed stat and 60 base speed is enough to get by on some of the slower mons of the tier so you may find yourself getting some spikes up too (although you'll usually get Toxic Spikes up by just getting hit)
​

 

[Tuthur]

​

Council has voted on some of the latest drops. As a result, Indeedee-F and Sawsbuck have been quickbanned from SV ZU. Tagging Kris and Marty to implement.

votes

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

I only voted dnb on ston because I figured I had to be the last voter this late, and we had to be at only 6 or 7 pro ban votes; so yeah I killed it early for the fun of it. This sus is still incredibly misrepresentative of the meta today and ston’s influence in it, and all votes were based off a dead meta. Also, having QBs DURING A SUSPECT TEST has got to be unheard of. Please show me one metagame at any time in smogon history where council QBed 2 other mons during a suspect test of something else…. Lol. Also, pleazs look into why how this null suspect happened, and I recommend avoiding such a scenario in the future. Thanks.

The deer was just leafeon 2.0 and indeedee-f was giraf 2.0. Good job banning those. Please wait till the DLC drops with new NFEs till another wave of QBs or suspects. We need more time with the meta and those darn Electric-types to see how it’ll play out. Thanks again, bros.

 

[plznostep]

SV ZU - Rotom-Fan Meta

Hey everyone, it's midnight for me and I am feeling a tiny bit bored so I thought I would make a post here about my thoughts on the current meta and the Pokemon available just as a review of what this meta has looked like and what I am hoping for the future of this tier. So without further ado, here I go.

So there are two clear Pokemon that dominate this metagame at the moment, and they are...



Rotom-Fan has shown to be pretty broken thus far, it has amazing stats, movepool, and its ability allows it to take advantage of Terastallization very well with Tera Steel, giving it only two weaknesses to Fire and Fighting, and Fighting-types don't exist here so it only has to worry about Fighting-type coverage which really is not that common, and having resists to notable typings like Rock, Psychic, Dragon, and Ice gives Rotom-Fan incredible matchups into Pokemon like Calyrex, Dragonair, Stonjourner, and Glalie, which makes it incredibly easy to find an opportunity to setup. Tera Ground also just makes it unwallable; there are no counters to that set at all and you have to use faster Water-types like Lumineon (which can't actually OHKO it) to have a chance or play aggressively to try and stop it from setting up. I don't think anything we get from the DLC will be able to help versus Rotom-Fan, it already dominates this tier at the moment with ease and it's flexibility with its Terastallization types makes it already so difficult to counter, so I hope it leaves soon, although its an awkward time for bans at the moment with the aforementioned DLC coming, but might be good for ZU SSNL and the finals for ZUPL.

Stonjourner was not banned from the tier in our last suspect test and I think that was a mistake, although I think everyone knows the timing of the suspect was incredibly unfortunate but we must adapt to it now in our tier. Stonjourner dislikes one thing in this shift, Rotom-Fan being able to Tera Steel and wall it basically completely, its also another mon that can revenge Stonjourner, but of course it can't directly switchin pre-tera. But Stonjourner also benefits a lot by Toxic Spikes becoming very relevant thanks to Glimmet, as all of its "answers" have to run Eviolite and thus are affected by them (apart from Bronzor but that's not really a mon you just splash onto teams). Stonjourner is still doing Stonjourner things though, there isn't actually an answer to every set Stonjourner has; Choice Band is incredibly effective at breaking teams; Dunsparce, a Pokémon people said would be a good way of answering Stonjourner, is 2HKO'd by Tera Steel Heavy Slam with rocks up, and this is Dunsparce, a Pokemon people complained about and even advocated for a ban because of its absurd bulk. Needless to say, nothing can switch into it safely, you have to predict correctly or get in a mon that can take a hit and answer back with a strong special move. I really hope people reconsider this mon at a future date but the public has spoken; Ston is here to stay, perhaps future shifts or DLC will help us deal with it.

There are also some other Pokemon I would like to talk about who do well in this Metagame.



Ampharos has shown to be an absolutely incredible Pokemon in the tier; its bulk is wonderful and its power quite literally unmatched in the tier, having the highest special attack in the tier. Naturally, Ampharos has seen use to try and deal with Rotom-Fan sets, which it can do well if its Tera Steel, Otherwise Tera Ground will just OHKO it at +2 because that's just how Rotom-Fan is. Still one of the best answers available however, and it does other things well like dealing with Water-types like Lumineon incredibly well, as it can punish pivots with U-turn with Static, which absolutely ruins it. Pivotting with Volt Switch is also valuable, and its one of the main reasons I say you absolutely need a Volt Absorber on every team, you'll be bulldozed by Ampharos otherwise. Agility sets are also very strong and effective at sweeping once set up. It has a few options; Tera Ice, Tera Ground, and Tera Dragon. Tera Ice gives Ampharos perfect coverage at the cost of a worse defensive typing, it can struggle a tiny bit with Camerupt but with some chip, Camerupt is not a problem. Tera Ground also is very good, but it has one fatal flaw; it cannot hit Tera Ground Rotom-Fan unless you run another coverage move alongside, none of which hits Rotom-Fan for super effective coverage. Tera Dragon is a nice midground option, it gives Ampharos some extra power on its coverage without hurting its defensive utility but also doesn't hit Ground-types for super effective damage and thus can struggle a bit with them. Magnetic Flux isn't great though, its vulnerable to Encore and has a nasty tendency to be crit.



Camerupt is amazing, its a great rocker and even on defensive sets, It is very difficult to switch into thanks to its incredibly scary STAB combo in Fire/Ground and high offensive stats. That typing also gives it a great matchup into Electric-types like Ampharos and it can serve as a fine check to Rotom-Fan at the same time. Running Rocks on Camerupt allows Stonjourner to run a different move in its 4th slot as well, such as Protect to get extra leftovers recovery and scout Choiced Pokemon like Lumineon, Rock Polish to help Stonjourner clean lategame, or Body Press/Low Sweep in order to hit Tera Steel Rotom-Fan. Camerupt can also help check the various Fire-types of the tier, like Scovillain although it doesn't particularly like taking Grass-type attacks. Offensive sets of Camerupt can also be potent, as said before, it's STABS are all it really needs to hit the entire tier for at least neutral damage.



Glimmet is quite possibly one of the most obnoxious Pokemon to face in the tier. It's ability allows it to set Toxic Spikes by just getting hit by a contact move, and considering we just lost Swalot, this is very scary for a lot of teams to deal with. Glimmet also has Stealth Rock and Spikes so it can spread even more hazards and an impressive Special Attack stat making it scary to switch into as well. Defensive sets also seem okay from what i've seen thus far. Otherwise, pretty one dimensional and this is basically all you'll see Glimmet do, but it does its job so well that it doesn't matter.



Grimer-Alola is the new best defensive poison in the tier. Knock Off has become incredibly free to spam into this tier with Swalot gone, it's probably the best move to have in the tier at the moment as getting rid of Eviolite and Heavy-Duty Boots is absolutely crazy when this is a very hazard centric meta, and it's useful defensive typing can be wonderful for Psychic-types like Calyrex at the same time. Poison Touch also amazing, as Stonjourner absolutely hates being Poisoned on top of it losing its item which could make it vulnerable to hazards as well. As mentioned before, Toxic Spikes are very threatening at the moment as well, so having the ability to suck them up is a really great trait. Overall, pretty spammable, especially because other Poison-types like Mareanie got worse since they just don't match up well into a lot here whereas Grimer-Alola does.



I am very happy with the return of Dunsparce. It's another great Rocker while effortlessly spreading Paralysis with Body Slam at a 60% rate, and can run other moves like Ice Beam to fish for 20% chance freezes. Dunsparce is a great blanket check to a lot of physical attackers in the tier and is probably the most splashable Stonjourner "answer", as it can at least take its hits when hazards are kept at bay or if you can pivot it in. Coil sets are also good at cleaning up games, although Dunsparce must be worried about Status stopping its sweep like Toxic, which is pretty free at the moment especially with good Toxic Spike users. Knock Off is also a death sentence for Dunsparce, as its incredible bulk is turned into just above average, which for a Pokemon who has to take significant damage from Hazards, is pretty bad. Calm Mind isn't as good though, It's not as easy to slap onto sets and is not really that threatening even when setup.Specially Defensive sets can also be ran to decent success as a good blanket check to special attackers, but Psychic-types like Gothitelle have coverage to hit it with so it's not as great as it's physical sets in my opinion.



Remember what I said about Knock Off being free as hell in this tier? Banette is the same case while having a massive attack stat that makes switching into it incredibly scary, and its priority can make it pretty difficult to deal with. As a result, Banette is able to make progress into basically any team and thus is incredibly valuable. The one flaw that Banette has however is that it's Bulk is below average which makes it pretty easy to OHKO it with strong attackers like Stonjourner. It's Ghost-typing can help a little though, giving it some defensive merit via spinblocking Pokemon like Toedscool, which is nice for Spike teams to have. It's support movepool is also very vast, with it carrying Will O Wisp for burns or Thunder Wave for Paralysis if you want, and perhaps Encore to help Banette find more opportunites to setup via locking Pokemon into unfavourable moves.

There are all the mons I think are doing very well at the moment, there are still some others like Lumineon and Vespiquen who are doing well but i'm pretty sure everyone knows what those mons do from the last meta and I've talked about too many mons already here.

I think this Metagame is very flawed at the moment; particularly with the two kings of the meta right now and the state of hazard removal in the tier is a bit pitiful; Toedscool is worse this shift as Camerupt beats it as a Rocker and Swalot leaving means Toxic Spikes is dominating, Fletchinder absolutely hates all the new Electric-types + Carkol, especially Ampharos Static moments, and Carkol itself is okay but spinblockers can just stop it in its tracks, and it also kinda adds to the problem anyways since it also sets hazards. Hopefully, the DLC gives us some nice removal options and Poison-types to remedy this, and a way to answer Stonjourner consistently would be an incredibly welcome addition. I won't be as optimistic to find an answer to Rotom-Fan however, since that Pokemon is basically just unwallable at this point and I doubt any NFE's we get will be able to make any difference since they are already at a disadvantage since they have to run Eviolite and thus are chunked by hazards.​