NP: UU - Zero to Hero

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Nas

Banned deucer.
I seriously doubt whether Jabba and Reach will allow any more suspect votes, to be honest. Also, since we've already voted on Heracross, you can't expect people to ignore that when passing judgement on Venusaur. Obviously if Heracross is banned to BL Venusaur will lose a huge counter and it'll look more broken than it actually was in this metagame, which had Heracross in it.
 

Eo Ut Mortus

Elodin Smells
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Venusaur had the most suspect nominations for the last two nomination periods; Milotic shouldn't even be considered unless and until it (Venusaur) is removed.

I don't see how Heracross's presence will influence people's perception of Venusaur. People can separate their experiences with Venusaur before Hera from those during Hera.

As for the prospect of an additional suspect vote, I agree - or, if I'm putting words in your mouth, would myself say - that another suspect vote might be a little more trouble than it's worth, considering that fourth gen, particularly UU, is "dead" - but on principle alone, I think it would be the right thing to do.
 
Venusaur had the most suspect nominations for the last two nomination periods; Milotic shouldn't even be considered unless and until it (Venusaur) is removed.
I honestly find Milotic to be the more irritating of the two, but I fully agree with that assessment. It would be impossible to judge Milotic's impact on UU unless Venusaur is gone. I don't agree with removing Venusaur, but I do realize how big its impact on the metagame is.

I don't see how Heracross's presence will influence people's perception of Venusaur. People can separate their experiences with Venusaur before Hera from those during Hera.
Because, as a budding psychologist, I can tell you with certainty that people react to their most recent experences far more strongly than any previous experiences. People aren't so self-aware as to "remove" that portion of their perception. So, removing Heracross would do exactly what RT. said it would.

As for the prospect of an additional suspect vote, I agree - or, if I'm putting words in your mouth, would myself say - that another suspect vote might be a little more trouble than it's worth, considering that fourth gen, particularly UU, is "dead" - but on principle alone, I think it would be the right thing to do.
I don't believe so, but I don't have a say in these matters, so w/e.
 

Eo Ut Mortus

Elodin Smells
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Because, as a budding psychologist, I can tell you with certainty that people react to their most recent experences far more strongly than any previous experiences. People aren't so self-aware as to "remove" that portion of their perception. So, removing Heracross would do exactly what RT. said it would.
If that's the case, won't people see Venusaur as weaker than it actually is, considering their latest experiences with it were in a metagame where it was not as dominant as it was in the metagame before?
 

Nas

Banned deucer.
If that's the case, won't people see Venusaur as weaker than it actually is, considering their latest experiences with it were in a metagame where it was not as dominant as it was in the metagame before?
Correct, so the comment you made about Venusaur having the most nominations in previous rounds really doesn't matter in this situation, because those rounds didn't have Heracross in them. Right now we'd be voting whether Venusaur was broken in this metagame, which I'm sure most would agree it wasn't.
 

Conflict

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Heracross isnt even close to a Venusaur-Counter.

Modest 252 SpA LO-Sludge Bomb vs. offensive Hera: 60.6% - 71.5% (2hko without any regeneration method)
Modest 252 SpA LO-Sludge Bomb vs. SDef-Hera: 36.3% - 42.9% (3hko and Venu is faster....)

Hera 2hkos (or ohko with CB/LO) Venu though, but cant switch in really safely.....

If you have problems with Milotic when Venusaur is gone just switch over to Vileplume, which is as much of a Milotic counter as Venusaur is but isnt as uncounterable.

Also, since we've already voted on Heracross, you can't expect people to ignore that when passing judgement on Venusaur.
???

Please please let Heracross be BL then. (SD is instawin vs. Stall and ok vs. Offense).
 
If you have problems with Milotic when Venusaur is gone just switch over to Vileplume, which is as much of a Milotic counter as Venusaur is but isnt as uncounterable.
No. Venusaur has enough problems dealing with Milotic as is (switch into Ice Beam from 0 SpA Milotic does 45.2% - 53.8% to offensive Venu, a clean 2HKO with SR support), and Vileplume wouldn't help matters much. It's just so less usable by comparison, and it's much slower and overall less bulky. Not to mention that even though Vileplume does check/counter Milotic very well, it loses out on the rest of the metagame, and that's were problems start to occur. It's not just Pokemon A vs. Pokemon B all the time, especially when both teams have six Pokemon.

RT. said:
Also, since we've already voted on Heracross, you can't expect people to ignore that when passing judgement on Venusaur.
0_o; didn't notice that.

Correct, so the comment you made about Venusaur having the most nominations in previous rounds really doesn't matter in this situation, because those rounds didn't have Heracross in them. Right now we'd be voting whether Venusaur was broken in this metagame, which I'm sure most would agree it wasn't.
Bingo. Ergo, skewed results compared to past experience.
 

Eo Ut Mortus

Elodin Smells
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RT. said:
Obviously if Heracross is banned to BL Venusaur will lose a huge counter and it'll look more broken than it actually was in this metagame, which had Heracross in it.
RT. said:
Correct, so the comment you made about Venusaur having the most nominations in previous rounds really doesn't matter in this situation, because those rounds didn't have Heracross in them. Right now we'd be voting whether Venusaur was broken in this metagame, which I'm sure most would agree it wasn't.
I am confused as to what you're trying to say here, as first you say that Venusaur will look more broken than it actually was, and then you say that most people will agree it wasn't broken in this metagame.

Also, we haven't finished voting on Hera yet, or else the results would have been published by now.
 

Nas

Banned deucer.
I am confused as to what you're trying to say here, as first you say that Venusaur will look more broken than it actually was, and then you say that most people will agree it wasn't broken in this metagame.

Also, we haven't finished voting on Hera yet, or else the results would have been published by now.
I'm saying that if Heracross is announced BL before we get to vote on Venusaur, people will be more likely to think of the past metagames instead of the one we are playing in right now. Simply put, they will ignore that Heracross was in this metegame since they already know it will not be in the next one, and Venusaur will look more broken than it actually was.
 
RT: for clarification, are you saying that voters should vote based on Venusaur in the last metagame with Heracross, not the second-to-last metagame without Heracross? because I think Eo is assuming that voters should consider the impact of Heracross leaving on Venusaur's power (i.e. vote based on the second-to-last metagame) since it is unlikely that there will be another testing round... which is where the confusion comes from.

but everyone agrees that Venusaur is better without Heracross, right? the disagreement is just over which period voters should consider?
 
I'd like to lead off with a bit of caution. DO NOT spam this thread about how Heracross is too good and doesn't deserve a test. If you want to make this claim please back it up with substantial evidence gathered from actually testing.
"If you think Heracross shouldn't be tested, go test him first."
 
Banedon, all I can tell you from all this is to stop theorymoning and actually play with Cradily or play against it. It's actually a lot harder to get going than you're making it, seriously.
I think that's what I'll do actually ... eventually ...

Anyway @ Conflict - the point is that Venusaur will have to use Leaf Storm sometimes, and after using it, it's forced to switch out. It cannot be using Sludge Bomb all the time because sometimes Sludge Bomb just isn't wise (would you Sludge Bomb a Steelix / Weezing / Registeel?). So eventually you bait it into using Leaf Storm, and if you successfully switched to a resist then you have the advantage and can set-up.

Venusaur is most dangerous when it's against a Pokemon that cannot hurt it, such as Milotic without Ice Beam. In that case Venusaur can safely risk the Sludge Bomb. But there's no lack of Pokemon that resist Poison. There are 4 types that resist Poison and one that's immune.

Of course switching Donphan into Venusaur would be very brave, but you get the idea: go to a Pokemon like Steelix first, when it will use Leaf Storm, and then go to Altaria / Moltres etc. This isn't foolproof, but considering Venusaur is running low speed + takes Life Orb recoil, it can't gain that many unimpeded switch-ins or attacks. If it switches into a Milotic's Ice Beam for example, it would have to Roost, giving you the chance to force it out. Or, if it attacks, it would be almost dead and so play no part in the game anymore.

Also:

Other Venusaur can put LO Venusaur to sleep. Besides, if neither can hurt each other, LO Venusaur runs out of PP first (it's taking LO damage).
SpD Drapion will usually have Rest, so it cannot be whittled down by Venusaur.
Chansey walls Venusaur definitely. 3 Sludge Bombs + 1 Leaf Storm = 40% damage from Life Orb, and you've not included the Sleep Powder miss chance + chance of Chansey waking up + Chansey switching out to something that's faster, knowing that Venusaur is using Sludge Bomb, e.g. Toxicroak. Chansey can even go to something like Rhyperior, and then back to Chansey on the forced Leaf Storm. Admittedly Chansey is not likely to partner Rhyperior, but you get the idea ...
Heracross can outspeed Venusaur and Megahorn it to death, so I don't see how it's not a check at least.

I've honestly not found Venusaur overwhelming, but I wouldn't mind if it's put up for suspect.
 

marilli

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I’m sorry if I don’t IRC / don’t have access to those voting stuff so what I said is redundant, stupid, or just simply irrelevant.

So I've read most of the Heracross debate in here, and basically all arguments for Heracross being UU is "You can wear it down easily with LO, SR, Burn damage, whatever, with 'smart switching'." But there's stuff like Wish, basically designed to replenish those that can be only countered with wearing down, hmm. Most teams do not carry Spikes, nor do they should just so that you can counter Choiced Heracross switching in, killing stuff, and switching out if he predicts wrong. Rinse and repeat a la Specs Latias, GG. An oversimplified model, you might say. True. But Latias was banned despite the fact that Specs Latias also relied quite heavily on prediction, and a wrong prediction could easily lead to punishment to the team or even removal of Latias from play. Heracross isn’t even pursuit-weak, so there’s nothing (other than your very own shaky prediction) stopping you from abusing him as a Choice user!

Granted, Heracross isn’t an auto-win. Heracross has his counters. But, this is not to say he is not an overcentralizing power. If I see correctly, large portion of the competitive teams currently have Heracross of some form in them (around half that I encounter, and the rest if I ask why they don’t abuse Heracross, they say they think it’s not fair / they’re sick of abusing him / they’re there to use their favorites without getting their shit wrecked in OU every day, so they’re not the most competitive people around. Those people started to thin out with arrival of Gen 5 anyways). Why? He is so destructive when used right. If he comes in safely on revenge, you’re at a great risk of losing a Pokémon. If this isn't overcentralizing, I don't know what is.

Let's just consider the Choice set for simplicity's sake as it's been Hera's flagship set for so long. Say Heracross is running Close Combat, Megahorn, Stone Edge, and (lol) Earthquake. The thing about this 'smart switching' is that, if Heracross predicts right, everything is going down in a big pile of shit. (Seriously how are people considering Moltres as a Heracross counter when he can switch out, do that multiple times. Even if you predict wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME, with SR on both sides, hey, Moltres is dead!) All those grounded poison counters? Heracross has banded EQ if everyone starts relying on those (Highly likely 2HKO with SR). This leaves Gligar / Weezing as one of the best counters (if not the only two) for Heracross. With no reliable healing, Weezing can be worn down just as easily as Heracross, if not easier. Even though anyone with half a brain could argue Gligar has little utility other than a designated Heracross counter and a possible stallbreaker (Milotic laughs quite hard, but it’s okay, as you could force her hands with something like Venusaur), let’s not even go there. All there needs to be said is that neither Gligar nor Weezing belongs in a true offensive team. The fact that no offensive team can effectively contain a Scarf Heracross without having their hands full with shit like Gligar makes him ban-worthy in my humble opinion (a one that comes from a nobody and hence one that nobody would care, I might add).

Talking of Gligar, Gligar + Heracross take care of stall, offense, and opposing Heracross-based teams. Now, you have 4 team slots open for all kinds of luxuries, such as a special wall / wisher that’s actually helpful in keeping Heracross alive and kicking. Or even better (or worse, depending on how you look at it), Arcanine + Milotic + Venusaur! (Sigh) If you think Heracross would rid of that FWG + 3 filler mentality, think again. He will eventually turn (or already has, idk) that mentality into Arcanine + Milotic + Venusaur + Heracross + Gligar + filler mentality, all with standard sets! (Gee, such a creative teambuilder, and with a record time of 0.13 seconds!) Granted, this team sucks as is. But I am willing to bet my left arm that this prototype would be spammed just as much If Gen 4 ladder were still active with lots of average players around (I’m talking about exactly those ones that spammed FWG).

TL; DR: If the UU metagame wants to be even more formulaic, then keeping Heracross UU would be the easiest way to do it. I thought UU was supposed to be a metagame where you’re not spammed with the overused Pokémon and strategy.

Edit: ah, found out how the suspect thing is going to be handled. figures
 
Hi

So I've read most of the Heracross debate in here, and basically all arguments for Heracross being UU is "You can wear it down easily with LO, SR, Burn damage, whatever, with 'smart switching'." But there's stuff like Wish, basically designed to replenish those that can be only countered with wearing down, hmm. Most teams do not carry Spikes, nor do they should just so that you can counter Choiced Heracross switching in, killing stuff, and switching out if he predicts wrong. Rinse and repeat a la Specs Latias, GG. An oversimplified model, you might say. True. But Latias was banned despite the fact that Specs Latias also relied quite heavily on prediction, and a wrong prediction could easily lead to punishment to the team or even removal of Latias from play. Heracross isn’t even pursuit-weak, so there’s nothing (other than your very own shaky prediction) stopping you from abusing him as a Choice user!
Arguments for Heracross being UU are definitely not limited to "wearing it down". First and foremost, it's pretty slow for an offensive Pokemon, meaning a majority of any offensive team won't even let Heracross get off an attack - even on the revenge kill. This is backed by the fact that it has a very accessible 4x weakness, meaning certain Pokemon don't even have to be excessively strong to OHKO it. Stall has viable switch-ins for the CB set....obviously it's prediction based (I dare you to use CB / LO Blaziken / LO Magmortar / etc and tell me the difference in switching into their attacks). You get the point.

Additionally, I have an issue with the sweeping statements you're making about Spikes and Wish. Many teams actually do carry Spikes - especially the would-be "heracross weak" teams (also referred to as "bad stall"). And Wish....just try throwing a Wish user in against any sort of offensive team - you likely won't get one off on Heracross to say the least. Even if you did, most people are going to be OHKOing Heracross anyway, not just widdling it down as you seem to think.

Amarillo said:
Granted, Heracross isn’t an auto-win. Heracross has his counters. But, this is not to say he is not an overcentralizing power. If I see correctly, large portion of the competitive teams currently have Heracross of some form in them (around half that I encounter, and the rest if I ask why they don’t abuse Heracross, they say they think it’s not fair / they’re sick of abusing him / they’re there to use their favorites without getting their shit wrecked in OU every day, so they’re not the most competitive people around. Those people started to thin out with arrival of Gen 5 anyways). Why? He is so destructive when used right. If he comes in safely on revenge, you’re at a great risk of losing a Pokémon. If this isn't overcentralizing, I don't know what is.
Heracross is amazing. So is Milotic. So is Venusaur. So is Pokemon X. So is Pokemon Y. Just because he's good and can be very destructive when used effectively (again, use another hard-hitter effectively...tell me the difference) does not in anyway prove that he's broken. It proves he's "good", and that is, for lack-of-a-better phrase, "not good enough".

Amarillo said:
Let's just consider the Choice set for simplicity's sake as it's been Hera's flagship set for so long. Say Heracross is running Close Combat, Megahorn, Stone Edge, and (lol) Earthquake. The thing about this 'smart switching' is that, if Heracross predicts right, everything is going down in a big pile of shit. (Seriously how are people considering Moltres as a Heracross counter when he can switch out, do that multiple times. Even if you predict wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME, with SR on both sides, hey, Moltres is dead!) All those grounded poison counters? Heracross has banded EQ if everyone starts relying on those (Highly likely 2HKO with SR). This leaves Gligar / Weezing as one of the best counters (if not the only two) for Heracross. With no reliable healing, Weezing can be worn down just as easily as Heracross, if not easier. Even though anyone with half a brain could argue Gligar has little utility other than a designated Heracross counter and a possible stallbreaker (Milotic laughs quite hard, but it’s okay, as you could force her hands with something like Venusaur), let’s not even go there. All there needs to be said is that neither Gligar nor Weezing belongs in a true offensive team. The fact that no offensive team can effectively contain a Scarf Heracross without having their hands full with shit like Gligar makes him ban-worthy in my humble opinion (a one that comes from a nobody and hence one that nobody would care, I might add).
Why is a CB Heracross coming in and attacking an offensive team freely? Why is Scarf Heracross doing more than revenge killing (gasp a Scarfer revenge killing).

And seriously, every time someone brings up prediction into a argument to ban a Pokemon it gets shut down as a point completely. Blaziken (shaddap), for example, if he predicts right and is using four attacks (like Fire Blast / Focus Punch / Hidden Power Grass / Stone Edge (no speed evs plz)) he can actually 2HKO the entire metagame as well but this is PURELY based on prediction. Heracross's strength, which people don't seem to be emphasizing enough, is that it has somewhat of an easy switch in vs certain Pokemon, however to claim that he is broken because he's a prediction based powerhouse is a leap at best.

Got tired....I think I'm a little rusty.
 

marilli

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Hi

OK, I see that my points are not entirely correct. But I am not saying that Heracross' choice set is broken. Nor am I saying that any other set of his is broken (SD, RestTalk, Guts Abuse, etc).

I AM saying, though, that he is a centralizing force (to the point it advocates an unhealthy metagame). He has enough bulk with decent resistances to switch in on offensive teams. You say most people are OHKO'ing it, then tell me an attack that's not super-effective STAB or random HP Flying / Aerial Ace that can OHKO a bulky build Heracross. Hera isn't switching in on stuff like Arcanine that can clearly OHKO him. (answer to "Why is CB hera attacking an offensive team freely?", and "How the hell is he different from all other hard-hitters?"), and I think he has enough speed for a bulky attacker: it's faster than Venusaur, and that means it's faster than everything except for those ones that are quite frail. And I think standard CB Heracross is not ridiculous at all, unlike your example of 252Atk/252SpAtk/6Spe Blaziken. Scarf sets can also switch in (Gasp! :0) on a resisted attack and now you're in great danger of losing a pokemon, unless you have a catch-all counter.

All of Heracross' set's are scary, and requires different switch-ins. Just like Salamence-- (but also like Venusaur, you diverse fuck) All there needs to be said is that people need to make a careful choice, and I hope you Heysup, along with other council members, make the right decision, whatever you guys think it is.

Have a nice day

P.S: If that 'I can get rid of my counters with a single prediction' is not an argument for banning, then where can I find how Latias got banned (I always thought the argument was Specs Surf gets rid of the counters to the other sets)? I'm not saying they're the same Pokemon, just genuinely curious.
 
Banedon, all I can tell you from all this is to stop theorymoning and actually play with Cradily or play against it. It's actually a lot harder to get going than you're making it, seriously.
So I seriously tried using Cradily and I don't think I was wrong ...

The set I used was this one:

Cradily @ Leftovers
252 HP, 252 SpD, 4 Def
Rest
Curse
Rock Slide
Seed Bomb

It can set up on a whole heap of Pokemon. Top UU Pokemon it can set up on include non-Haze Milotic, Venusaur, Moltres, Arcanine (some variants), Spiritomb, non-Curse Registeel, some Mismagius and some Alakazam, and the list goes on and on and on. Cradily's special bulk is seriously good, rivalling even Chansey. For example, 252 SpA Modest Specs Alakazam Psychic vs. 252/252+ Cradily in a Sandstorm is 30.3% - 35.9%. So much for one of the most powerful special attacks in the tier. This makes Cradily a decent special wall at least.

That's from the special side. On the physical side Cradily is vulnerable - but it can wear its counters down. What makes it easier to wear down Cradily's counters than it is to wear down Cradily's counter's counters? There are several reasons. First is Sandstorm, whereby Pokemon like Arcanine cannot use Morning Sun nearly as effectively. Second, Cradily's counters generally do not get / use recovery and take far more from Cradily's attacks than they deal. For example, CB Scyther cannot switch into Rock Slide. It's also 4x weak to Stealth Rock, and since sandstorm is in effect it means Scyther will only be able to switch in once if Stealth Rock is on the field. Wearing CB Scyther down then isn't too difficult. Other counters, such as Hitmonlee, takes 49.8% - 58.9% from Seed Bomb. That is not cheap at all. Even if we accept that Cradily cannot predict right all the time, Rock Slide still does 23.2% - 27.4%. With 6% from sandstorm, 6% from SR and then any further damage from Life Orb, Hitmonlee takes a lot of damage very quickly. Against this, Cradily's counter's counters include Pokemon like Gligar (with Roost), Nidoqueen (at least has Leftovers) and Weezing (Pain Split / Rest). They should live longer than Hitmonlee, LO EQ Hitmonlee vs. Nidoqueen aside.

Switching out is certainly a bad thing most of the time, but after switching out the Cradily counter is forced to switch out itself. Cradily's counter usually cannot afford to overpredict because, short of a powerful STAB Close Combat, if you do overpredict and Cradily stays in, you're in trouble. Cradily's defenses increase quickly: CB Scyther U-turn fails to KO +1 Cradily: 55.9% - 66%. If you have to switch Scyther out, then switch Scyther back in, Cradily might've healed up already. Meanwhile pretty much all the Fighting Pokemon are hard-countered by Weezing. Also, sandstorm helps with scouting Trick a whole lot. For example, if Rotom switches in on Cradily, it takes sandstorm damage even if Stealth Rock isn't up. If it shows no Leftovers chances are it is choiced. So Cradily should switch out (go to Hippopostas). Even if Rotom is the SubSplit LO type, Cradily can easily switch back in later, when Rotom will not pose a threat until it gets multiple SpD falls from Shadow Ball.

Finally there is setting up alongside Cradily, especially if Cradily is asleep, but Cradily is really sturdy. Consider for example:

+1 Adamant LO Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 252/0 +1 Cradily: 54.8% - 64.9%
+1 0 Attack Cradily Seed Bomb vs. 28/0 Feraligatr: 68.6% - 81.1%

What has happened to me in this situation is my opponent using Toxic on Cradily while Cradily is Cursing, and then switching out after I reveal Rest. On turn one of sleep, Feraligatr switches in. On turn 2 of sleep, Feraligatr gets its Dragon Dance (of course, if my primary checks are still alive, I'd go to them and conserve Cradily for late-game). On turn 3, Feraligatr Ice Punches, fails to KO and dies to Seed Bomb (SR + LO recoil + 2 turns of Sandstorm).

Here's another example:

+2 Timid Mismagius HP Fighting vs. 252/252+ Cradily in a sandstorm: 40.4% - 47.9%
+1 0 Attack Cradily Seed Bomb vs. 4/0 Mismagius: 62.2% - 73.7%

So Cradily Rests after Cursing once. On turn 1 of sleep, Mismagius switches in. On turn 2 of sleep, Mismagius Nasty Plots (if Mismagius subs now, it loses even worse to Cradily). On turn 3, Mismagius attacks, fails to 2HKO, and takes big damage. If it stays in, it dies on turn 4. Life Orb Mismagius is even better for Cradily, since there's a good chance it dies on turn 3 (SR + LO recoil + 2 turns of Sandstorm).

The biggest problems with Cradily I've found are 1) Haze Milotic, 2) requiring Hippopostas and 3) other weather teams. I'm currently using Toxic Spikes to deal with Haze Milotic and so far it's working reasonably well. Besides, even unboosted Cradily actually does decent damage on Milotic, so Milotic is often forced to heal and leave Cradily's switch-in unscathed. There's nothing that can be done about the second problem, unfortunately. Hippopostas is near dead-weight most of the time, although it does have its uses (aka. absorbing Trick). It also conveniently manages to let Omastar / Cloyster set up at least 2 layers of Spikes, etc. It's a bad weakness, probably the most important one. As for the third problem, PK Gaming beat me once with it. He showed me 3 Pokemon that didn't use weather, convincing me that I didn't need Hippopostas to reset weather, and then promptly revealed a SunnyBeamer that wiped the floor with the rest of my team. Once again nothing can be done about this weakness, other than having some prior knowledge of the other team.

I increasingly think Cradily in sandstorm is worthy of the defensive characteristic. Question then really is if the cost of getting the sandstorm there in the first place outweighs the benefits from Cradily's giant defenses in one. In the meantime, I'll keep playing with sand teams.

PS: council still not done? @_@?
 

Erazor

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Council is done, Heracross should be BL.

AWESOME Jabba seems to have forgotten to announce :)
 

FlareBlitz

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I don't think anyone could have foreseen that the vote would be this close when we all speculated on Heracross dropping down way back when. Very interesting arguments.
 

SJCrew

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This feels just like the time Raikou and Froslass were banned. Looks like 4th gen UU is going to go out the same way 4th gen OU did: balanced and fun to play.
 
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