Metagame NP: USUM Stage 6: Flowers (Lilligant banned)

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MZ

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lilligant.gif
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The PU Council has decided to suspect test Lilligant! Lilligant has been a top tier threat for almost the entirety of gen 7 PU due to its incredible versatility and sweeping power. Lilligant is nearly impossible to reliably counter and needs very little coverage to hit most of the tier. Its options range from Hidden Power Fire or Rock to Z-Hyper Beam to non-attacking lures such as Z-Sleep Powder and Z-Aromatherapy, not to mention a few solid non-Quiver Dance sets such as Choice Specs and Choice Scarf. However, the tier has been dealing with Lilligant for years. It can still be offensively pressured by plenty of top tier Pokemon and tends to not completely dominate the upper echelons of play. Teams can often rely on strong offensive pressure to keep Lilligant at bay, and the tier does not lack top tier checks that can give many or all of its sets trouble, such as Alolan Sandslash, Oricorio-Pom-Pom, and Guzzlord. However, no check to Lilligant is ever going to reliably stop it from sweeping, and this suspect will determine if the preparation Lilligant calls for during teambuilding is too large of a problem for it to remain in the tier.

There will be no suspect ladder. Instead we will use the normal PU ladder which will remain open for the duration of the test. A message will pop up at the beginning of ladder games to indicate that the suspect is going on. Anyone who wishes to participate in this suspect test will use a newly-made alt with a suspect-specific tag to indicate that you are trying to achieve reqs. The requirements for this suspect test are the following:
  • All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! PU ladder on a new alt with the following format: "LST (nickname)" For example, I might register the alt LST Megazard to ladder with.
  • Do NOT impersonate other people in your ladder alt (LordST doesn't count), do NOT use any usernames which are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users, and do NOT use usernames which could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokemon Showdown! Failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect, and potential infractions.
  • To qualify for voting, your alt must play 35 games with a minimum GXE of 80.
The suspect test will last for 14 days, ending on Sunday May 5th at 10PM EST. Good luck qualifying, and happy Easter/Passover!
 

yogi

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of course you make the tag lst, now everyone's a fucking weeb ass.

ok so im really lazy and wont make this formatted or any shit but here are me 2 shillings on the topic. personally, i dont really care about facing lilli, i never really find it an issue just because of how i build but now that people are using a load of different sets i think it's finally time to get rid of it. heal bell, z hyper, bulky lilli, grass z, etc. are all very viable sets with different checks and ways of beating them, making teambuilding in theory a lot harder as you have to like account for them all. in battle it basically forces you to play differently (same to how sub jynx worked (and sub lilli could probs work jsjs)) which just sucks because having to always account for one pokemon above all others clearly makes it an overburdening threat on the meta. while i don't think it is straight "broken" like things such as archeops and magmortar were, i do think it's very unhealthy, especially from a teambuilding aspect. while it isn't actually the most splashable mon, the teams it work on really, really work and just put too much pressure on building. there's not a single check, bar absolute shit mons like spd sliggoo, that can check all its sets so same with pyroar you've got to play some of the game scouting it, which is deadly af when this mon had qd+sleep. this mon going will really balance out pu and i hope people vote ban.
 

Ktütverde

of course
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I wish the suspect was delayed, cuz we just started to adapt to guzzlord which, turns out, is one of the best lilli checks. I'm not in love with lilli, like it's annoying and pretty much forces you to have 91+ speed scarfers, but scarf ape will always be good, whether there's lilli or not, scarf dodrio is more questionable, scarf scyther should be banned rn cuz like stealth rocks only do 50% to it. I mean uh, banning lilli will certainly ease teambuilding at first glance, but there's one question I want people to think about:

"what are winconditions in PU?"

Eeeh tricky question, right? the easiest answer would be: "lategame sweepers ofc!" Ok, so next question:

"what are PU lategame sweepers?"

Okay, so if we put bad things like agility articuno aside, what do we have?

-Gurdurr: very slow wincon, often used as a physical tank and sometimes without bulkup! (toxic>BU)
-Oricorio-pompom: a CM sweeper, but the point of using it is for the defensive utility, and it rarely clean games.
-Lycanrock, carracosta, omastar: decent mons, but as you may know they aren't that easy to use (especially due to the gurdurr/primeape RK).


AND THAT'S ALL!! (well Lilligant too ofc). There is Hail+SD snowslash, rain sweepers, CM clefairy (awful), CM sensu (meh). I won't count NP raichu and NP simisear in, because they are breakers mainly (well they can sweep late game if your oppo doesn't either have a scarfer nor a prio user (good job)). So like we have almost 0 good sweepers, which explains why HO isn't a thing in PU (even sun and hail sweepers aren't that effective).

So my point is:


Lilligant is annoying but there's a myriad of ways of checking it, ranging from oricorios+fast scarfers, to AV guzzlord, or even prio users like skunk and kangaskhan (helped by the ever-so-common spikes). Tbh I would rather keep it simply because it's a good lategame sweeper that isn't too slow. I don't like all those slow teams with multiple wallbreakers (like stoutland+victreebel, or aggron+guzzlord+scarf ape) that much , I just find the games a bit stupid if there isn't a setup sweeper to clean the game if you have played well and chipped away at its checks. When the games are just player A brings breaker, player B sacks this, player B sends breaker, player A sacks this (ok, it's an exaggeration, but that's what happens over 3-4 turns instead of 1 like in my example). And the end is often: scarfer of player X/choice breaker of player X kills the last mon of its opponent. Comes back and forth, and the player who did it better kills the last mon first.

That's not exactly competitive mons as I like them. Sweepers deter a breaker spam because, if one player has a lategame cleaner and the oppo doesn't, the former player can win at any turn during lategame while the opponent can't setup something that will be able to pick off the weakened foe. Sweepers lead to spicier gameplans where you try to make sure your sweeper can clean by weakening several mons instead of playing turn by turn with breakers that have to constantly pivot in and out, get a kill and run, and leave you at the mercy of the opponent's faster pokémons until the last turn (except for BU gurdurr).

So yeah, in a nutshell, PU is just a slow tier full of breakers, and I don't know if banning the only really good sweeper we have is a good idea, especially when it is checked by guzzlord very well (why do I not see many guzzlords??). For example, that would force people to use guzzlord more often and use other slow hitters like aurorus less. Does lilligant make teambuilding less enjoyable? I don't think so. It just makes it more centered around certains patterns than others, which is good to stabilize a metagame, which is something that PU needs because PU sometimes looks like Punch'n'Uturn lol (hit'n'run joke, a great one).

Therefore I think I will be voting Do Not Ban, because the current meta is definitely not struggling with lilligant imo, and because I don't believe in a healthier meta only based on breakers, breakers and breakers (the newer one being victreebel, which is already a pain to switchinto and is more painful than lilligant when it comes to dealing with it, defensively speaking). I just feel like this suspect is just happening because there hasn't been anything new since guzz dropped, which isn't fair to lilligant because it has only become worse with guzz dropping imo, so that backs up my opinion slightly.
 
I've been following PU actuality for a while and I've been loving this tier by the time I played.
But, this tier has many water defensive Pokemon than I hate encounter (aka Quag, Def Caracosta, Gastro, Def Jelli...) and every time I met them, I cannot bypass them. Maybe because of my team and to my mind mainly because of it.

That's why I decided to use grass types in my PU teams. First Exe before its ban, now, I'm with Lili. And I enjoy playing it. It is a great check to these water type. But I must admit that its bulk is kinda low.
But I'm against its ban. To me the tier has to many water type and not so many Pokemon who can handle them correctly. But, it has also good Pokemon who can handle these grass type correctly (Scyther, Roselia, Tangela, the newcomer Guzz...)

To me, what makes Lili checkable is some of the following points:
- bulk (70-75-75) makes it difficult to handle hard hits
- typing, offensively and defensively, resisted by many top tiers followed by 5 weaknesses, common in the tier
- coverage, relying on HP to hit resisting mons (but must admit the Z HB is powerful)
- must set up once to start getting dangerous

It may seem light, but Lili is one the few mons that, to me, is able to handle defensive water mons.
Well, sorry for my English and my non-valuable arguments, but it was a pleasure to write this reply.
If I was able to vote, I would be voting NO BAN
Thanks !
 
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I wish the suspect was delayed, cuz we just started to adapt to guzzlord which, turns out, is one of the best lilli checks. I'm not in love with lilli, like it's annoying and pretty much forces you to have 91+ speed scarfers, but scarf ape will always be good, whether there's lilli or not, scarf dodrio is more questionable, scarf scyther should be banned rn cuz like stealth rocks only do 50% to it. I mean uh, banning lilli will certainly ease teambuilding at first glance, but there's one question I want people to think about:

"what are winconditions in PU?"

Eeeh tricky question, right? the easiest answer would be: "lategame sweepers ofc!" Ok, so next question:

"what are PU lategame sweepers?"

Okay, so if we put bad things like agility articuno aside, what do we have?

-Gurdurr: very slow wincon, often used as a physical tank and sometimes without bulkup! (toxic>BU)
-Oricorio-pompom: a CM sweeper, but the point of using it is for the defensive utility, and it rarely clean games.
-Lycanrock, carracosta, omastar: decent mons, but as you may know they aren't that easy to use (especially due to the gurdurr/primeape RK).


AND THAT'S ALL!! (well Lilligant too ofc). There is Hail+SD snowslash, rain sweepers, CM clefairy (awful), CM sensu (meh). I won't count NP raichu and NP simisear in, because they are breakers mainly (well they can sweep late game if your oppo doesn't either have a scarfer nor a prio user (good job)). So like we have almost 0 good sweepers, which explains why HO isn't a thing in PU (even sun and hail sweepers aren't that effective).

So my point is:


Lilligant is annoying but there's a myriad of ways of checking it, ranging from oricorios+fast scarfers, to AV guzzlord, or even prio users like skunk and kangaskhan (helped by the ever-so-common spikes). Tbh I would rather keep it simply because it's a good lategame sweeper that isn't too slow. I don't like all those slow teams with multiple wallbreakers (like stoutland+victreebel, or aggron+guzzlord+scarf ape) that much , I just find the games a bit stupid if there isn't a setup sweeper to clean the game if you have played well and chipped away at its checks. When the games are just player A brings breaker, player B sacks this, player B sends breaker, player A sacks this (ok, it's an exaggeration, but that's what happens over 3-4 turns instead of 1 like in my example). And the end is often: scarfer of player X/choice breaker of player X kills the last mon of its opponent. Comes back and forth, and the player who did it better kills the last mon first.

That's not exactly competitive mons as I like them. Sweepers deter a breaker spam because, if one player has a lategame cleaner and the oppo doesn't, the former player can win at any turn during lategame while the opponent can't setup something that will be able to pick off the weakened foe. Sweepers lead to spicier gameplans where you try to make sure your sweeper can clean by weakening several mons instead of playing turn by turn with breakers that have to constantly pivot in and out, get a kill and run, and leave you at the mercy of the opponent's faster pokémons until the last turn (except for BU gurdurr).

So yeah, in a nutshell, PU is just a slow tier full of breakers, and I don't know if banning the only really good sweeper we have is a good idea, especially when it is checked by guzzlord very well (why do I not see many guzzlords??). For example, that would force people to use guzzlord more often and use other slow hitters like aurorus less. Does lilligant make teambuilding less enjoyable? I don't think so. It just makes it more centered around certains patterns than others, which is good to stabilize a metagame, which is something that PU needs because PU sometimes looks like Punch'n'Uturn lol (hit'n'run joke, a great one).

Therefore I think I will be voting Do Not Ban, because the current meta is definitely not struggling with lilligant imo, and because I don't believe in a healthier meta only based on breakers, breakers and breakers (the newer one being victreebel, which is already a pain to switchinto and is more painful than lilligant when it comes to dealing with it, defensively speaking). I just feel like this suspect is just happening because there hasn't been anything new since guzz dropped, which isn't fair to lilligant because it has only become worse with guzz dropping imo, so that backs up my opinion slightly.
I can pretty much agree with everything you wrote and those are probably my own first thoughts.
PU doesnt have many set up sweepers and we really do need Lilligant for the same.
But I'm on the edge here as maybe some of the underrated sweepers might be advantageous if lilli does get the hammer. (looking at stuff like bellossom)
Its not like we need a fresh breath in the tier cuz imo we are moving towards a more stable but still fresh tier so maybe we might not regret letting lilligant go but i think that maybe giving the ladder a bit time and we might find the right result.
I'm on the fence but for now i'll prolly vote NO BAN.
 

sugar ovens

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There aren't many posts in the thread, so i'll try to sum up my thoughts and react somehow to the no-ban arguments that i heard here and in the PS chat..

Lilligant has been getting better and better for a very long time, for the one check that we've got now in guzzlord many others were banned or rose to NU. There are still some remaining, and Lilli can rather easily beat every one of them with either HP Fire or Z-Hyper Beam, sometimes with the support of Sleep Powder, an uncompetitive move in its nature that can give it a free setup opportunity, get it past a random "check" or just cripple something like pompom for its teammates. With combinations of HP Rock/Fire+(Z-)Sleep, Z-Hyper + Sleep, Z-Hyper + HP Fire, HP Fire + (Z-)Aromatherapy, Z-Hyper + Heal Bell, ability to run a bulkier EV spread or a Choice Specs set, it is a very unpredictable Pokémon with very few checks that actually can deal with it reliably. The result of this is teambuilding pressure that is unrivaled by any of the other PU pokémon, when teams have to include at least two grass resists aka "checks", plus usually a scarfer with 91+ speed that can OHKO it. In battles, beating Lilligant is a gambling game of constant 50/50, guessing its set, sacrificing sheep to RNJesus to wake up your mons-that-used-to-be-checks, trying to catch the moment when it uses its Breakneck Blitz.. The 50/50 are the main difference between Lilligant and other PU sweepers. You can never be certain what should you do to beat it. Where other sweepers have checks and counters that must be weakened before the sweep attempt, Lilligant may sleep, setup on or KO most of them. This, along with Lilli's resilience that comes from its typing, QD spdef boosts and Giga Drain allows it to get multiple boosts much, much easier than other sweepers, and not only once in the game.


Yes, despite its on-the-paper 70/75/75 bulk and equally on-the-paper bad grass typing, Lilligant is able to come in and threathen sth/setup many times. One of the reasons is the meta; our Stealth Rock users are often setup fodder for Lilligant (SR is not an attack that could really cripple a mon that swiches into it), a large part of our walls being Water or Ground types (plus Regirock, Tangela..). Quiver Dance boosting Sp. Defense is another fact that people tend to ignore - a few extreme examples of mons that Lilli sets up on are Specs Drampa locked into Hyper Voice, Specs Guzzlord switching in while you use your first Quiver Dance or Specs Jellicent (if rocks are on opponent's field). Of course, Sleep Powder much eases setup too (fun fact: you also beat the foolproof lilli counter, AV guzzlord with it.. do you remember what is Giga Drain's side effect?), Giga Drain allows it to finish its sweeps even versus random priority and status users, and Aromatherapy/Heal Bell are kinda self-explanatory. I guess you could see how often it can do sth in a match in ssnl finals.


I also disagree with the argument that Lilligant is the only good sweeper of PU and that it prevents it from this tier becoming a wallbreaker spam. My idea of a healthy sweeper is that it has some checks, you try to weaken them to allow a sweep while your opponent tries to prevent you from doing that. Lilligant doesn't really work like that, you can lure Snowslash if you are without HP FIre but that's all. As I've already said, Lilligant creates 50/50s and, sometimes, cheeses with Sleep Powder. For beating it, you don't have to preserve one check, but all of them, you have to scout for Lilli's set, you have to win those 50/50s. Lilligant is not something that would be healthy, more like the opposite of that in my opionion. What win-cons would we have in PU if Lilli left?
- shell smash sweepers.. Omastar, Carracosta.. Both are good, Costa can clean vs scarfers, if they are weakened
- CM sweepers.. Pom-Pom is decent at cleaning, Mesprit is more wallbreakish ig, Sensu is usable, kinda matchup-reliant
- Dodrio, Lycanroc.. both are very good sweepers with priority to beat weakened scarfers
- Ludicolo.. an amazing late-game cleaner with good typing that can be useful throughout the entire match. Outspeeds and KOs scarfers.
- SD Silvallys.. they have seen some usage, SD + flame charge is decent
- Bulk Up Fighting types.. Gurdurr is great, Poliwrath and Throh are solid, a lot of defensive utility
- Type: Null.. a good wincon that needs support
Of course Snowslash is good, NP Raichu, Simisear, CM Mesprit and Turtonator are wallbreakers but sometimes they sweep, Pinsir is a solid late-game cleaner, Jynx is solid, we have several SD + Sucker Punch Dark-types that can both wallbreak and clean, Floatzel is usable ig, Combusken is a late-game cleaner, Alolan Persian got worse with Guzz but still has potential, CM Clef, Spiritomb and Carbink are bad. All of these mons have checks and counters that have to be weakened before the sweep, which is good for the tier. The games without Lilligant that we have seen so far certainly weren't just breaker spam.

So, in conclusion, I'll vote ban. Lilligant is unhealthy, constricts teambuilding (see those spdef drampas and bouffalants in tours), has very little reliable counterplay. If I made too many typos and grammatical errors, I apologize.
 

UberSkitty

Assist Skitty was too broken for NDUbers
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Well Lilligant has gone full-circle throughout Gen 7, originally being on the potential banlist but voted no-ban by the council, yet here we are today.

The main counterpoint for Lilligant's ban is that it has a lot of checks between defensive answers like Alolan Sandslash, Guzzlord, and Oricorio-Pom-Pom, and offensive answers like Scarf Swanna, Scarf Haunter, and Scarf Scyther. Notice that many of the offensive checks for Lilligant are Scarf mons faster than Lilligant base-stat wise. This alone can be bothersome if your Scarf mon is something like Scarf Kabutops or Scarf Mesprit, which are otherwise fine choices. It's also notable that many Choice Scarf mons have to hard switch in on Lilligant or it could potentially get to +2 and outspeed them anyway. On the defensive side, Lilligant's versatility comes into play. Coverage wise, it can run HP Fire for Alolan Sandslash or Z-Hyper Beam for Guzzlord and Oricorio-Pom-Pom, which is what makes it very difficult to defensively check after setting up, especially if running both moves. Otherwise, like said in other posts, it can run Sleep Powder, Z-Aromatherapy, ect, which make it a rather unpredictable mon at times, similar to Pyroar in some ways. It also can run Specs or Scarf.

In one of the previous metas, I made a list of everything a team should have, and I don't feel like making that whole thing again. But overall, having to run sometimes multiple checks for this thing in a single team can be very limiting when adding up everything else that a team wants. Anyone else kind tired of sticking Alolan Sandslash on everyone of their teams for the needed role compression?

Finally, I could see Lilligant leaving opening up some fun for other mons, such as Bellosson and even stuff like NP Simisage cosplay. Sounds like a fun meta to me. So I'm pro-ban Lilligant, even though I'm too lazy to get reqs.
 

MZ

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This suspect concerns me because the burden of proof should be on the pro-ban side but it feels like it's being taken for granted that Lilligant is broken, the posts are more akin to a resuspect than a suspect. The same points get recycled but I have a hard time being convinced by any of them because there's not really been any effort to go deeper. The main counterpoint isn't that Lilligant has a lot of checks per se, it's that Lilligant just isn't too much to deal with and it's not running over our tours or making people run the same 3 teams or anything like that. I've not seen any pro-ban posters so far try to combat this notion beyond saying "nah building feels too constricted and/or I hate building in Lilligant meta". Not all centralization is bad, and I find Lilligant to be the kind of threat that overall works out for the tier. It mostly encourages you to run good mons and playstyles anyway, its versatility hasn't really been shown to lead to completely ludicrous amounts of prep, and the tier seems like it could use a sweeper like Lilligant. I mean, the tier just really lacks any kind of versatility at all, the closest mon to Lilligant in being able to run different sweeping sets is what, SD vs Special Combusken? The idea that every wincon in the tier can have clearly defined counters from preview and never require much skill to play around seems awfully linear to me, especially since nobody's really been able to explain well why Lilligant just winning due to the wrong set popping up pretty much never happens. Now these arguments aren't crazy fleshed out, but that's because I lack a pro-ban post to effectively respond to at the moment. It's time to move beyond "needing multiple checks feels hard" and "Lilligant is versatile and can run these sets from the analysis" and say something about why this is actually too much for the tier.
Oh and also not every team needs multiple counters to defensively counter different possible sets. That is the case for fat balance, but people have really been pushing this notion way too hard when it doesn't apply to a lot of team styles
 

yogi

I did not succumb...
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This suspect concerns me because the burden of proof should be on the pro-ban side...
huh? this isn't criminal court where it's innocent until proven guilty. it's on both sides to show reasoning and this statement is wrong imho.

The same points get recycled but I have a hard time being convinced by any of them because there's not really been any effort to go deeper.
there's been plenty of depth when people have talked about this both on discord and around ps. i honestly do not understand why you choose to ignore the teambuilding aspect when it's clearly a thing. it encourages very similar building and by making a load of teams being recycled versions of themselves it restricts not only the building but also limits a load of the meta being used as a consequence of this, this is an issue and you cannot just gloss over it with a half-arsed response when you barely make an effort to go deeper.

Not all centralization is bad, and I find Lilligant to be the kind of threat that overall works out for the tier. It mostly encourages you to run good mons and playstyles anyway, its versatility hasn't really been shown to lead to completely ludicrous amounts of prep, and the tier seems like it could use a sweeper like Lilligant.
loads of teams, and not just fat balance like you keep repeating, run multiple checks to this pokemon. i've seen load of offensive teams run combos of alolaslash with pom / scarf dodrio to not lose to it. when a mon requires teams to have to prep heavily for this mon by reusing the same pokemon constantly, this doesn't promote a healthy meta. yeah ok there's teams with these "good mons" but how does this promote meta health when they're being constantly used.

I mean, the tier just really lacks any kind of versatility at all, the closest mon to Lilligant in being able to run different sweeping sets is what, SD vs Special Combusken? The idea that every wincon in the tier can have clearly defined counters from preview and never require much skill to play around seems awfully linear to me, especially since nobody's really been able to explain well why Lilligant just winning due to the wrong set popping up pretty much never happens.
no it doesn't, pu has been a tier that has had a massive amount of versatility in previous metas and has constant innovation and new sets being created. mesprit, skuntank, froslass, are all extremely versatile so saying sd vs special busken is the next best thing is just dumb. not every pokemon needs to be able to run 7 sets to provide versatility. and the second half of your point is just incorrect. absolutely loads of players have said they've lost to lilligant because of it being the wrong set to what they predicted and i've watched it frequently on the ladder and experienced it first-hand.

Now these arguments aren't crazy fleshed out, but that's because I lack a pro-ban post to effectively respond to at the moment. It's time to move beyond "needing multiple checks feels hard" and "Lilligant is versatile and can run these sets from the analysis" and say something about why this is actually too much for the tier.
ok let me give you a tl;dr list:

1) it promotes stale building and centralises the meta around it in a bad way, making slower scarf pokemon borderline non-existant and promoting the same pokemon to be used even on builds that aren't "fat offense"
2) it promotes a massive element of luck compared to basically every other mon in the tier. guessing the several sets it has and sleep powder's inconsistent turns makes playing against it a roll of the dice against a good player
3) it is very similar to something like pyroar. multiple sets and multiple checks that all lose to different sets, requiring you to have to risk scouting. pyroar, although in my opinion a more broken pokemon, was banned on the same premise so idg why you're shrugging off the "multiple sets being an issue" point

there isn't anymore to talk about because these are the problematic things to do with lilligant.
 

MZ

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Ok I wouldn't normally want to immediately respond here but this is a massive falsehood that needs to be addressed.
huh? this isn't criminal court where it's innocent until proven guilty. it's on both sides to show reasoning and this statement is wrong imho.
This isn't an opinion, it is a fact that the burden of proof is on those who want Lilligant banned. That is how suspects work, they default to the status quo unless a majority of people (60%) want things to change. This is why I dislike the rest of the post, which basically repeats "Lilligant promotes stale building" and "loads of players lose to Lilligant because of it being the wrong set" because in my experience, that's just not super common and nothing specific is being brought up here. That's not an attempt to be convincing, that's stating your position without the evidence. And this is evidence that should be way, way easier for the pro-ban side to bring up because it's far more simple to find examples of Lilligant doing a thing than to try to demonstrate it not doing a thing. That was the main thrust of my post, I'm waiting for someone to actually roll up in here with statistics or replays. Until then, I *think* you're wrong about what you've said because there's nothing to back it up and my own personal experience differs from yours (my experience being that Lilligant prep isn't super unreasonable, teams aren't all stale and recycled, slower scarfers still exist, the same checks aren't being overused in a problematic way they just see naturally decent levels of usage, and generally that it treads the line and I hate sleep powder being inconsistent as fuck but can't really justify any good reason to remove it from the meta). I'm not "ignoring the teambuilding aspect", I simply have a different experience and the burden is on the pro-ban side to be convincing as to why I'm wrong.
 
First off, I'm on the BAN side. Lilligant has so much versatility in its movepool that it can use to cheese through traditional checks and counters. For example, HP Ice stops opposing Lilligant, Altaria, Guzzlord, and Drampa. HP Fire stops opposing Lilligant, AlolaSlash, and Froslass. Also, you have more niche moves such as HP Rock which demolishes Articuno and Scyther. In fact, Lilligant with HP Rock + Aromatherapy can 6-0 common stall teams, but that's another story.

Then we have the two moves for which Lilligant is infamous: Z-Hyper Beam and Sleep Powder. Given its 200 Base Power, it's no surprise that Breakneck Blitz can break through common checks such as Victreebel, Skuntank, and Oricorio-E on the switch and steamroll Drampa and non-bulky Guzzlord at +1. Only the sturdiest of specially defensive walls such as Roselia and Type: Null can take a +1 hit of anything and fire back.

252+ SpA Chlorophyll Lilligant Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Victreebel: 283-334 (94 - 110.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Chlorophyll Lilligant Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Skuntank: 317-374 (91 - 107.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Chlorophyll Lilligant Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 285-336 (80.5 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Chlorophyll Lilligant Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 136 HP / 0 SpD Drampa: 345-406 (104.2 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Chlorophyll Lilligant Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Guzzlord: 529-623 (90.1 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Now we have Sleep Powder, which is an uncompetitive move in nature (especially when it's put on one of the faster Pokemon in the tier). When Sleep Powder actually hits its intended target, something is put to sleep which will most likely make it death fodder for the rest of the match unless you have Heal Bell or something. On the off chance that it misses and Lilligant gets KOed, the user of the move can just call "hax" on the opponent. Grass-types (other than Roselia) can't switch into the move because it's easy to predict that and get nuked or set up on. Drampa can switch in, unless the user predicts that and proceeds to go for +1. Sleep Powder (or the threat of it) can simply turn a slow check into set-up fodder.

Here's a replay that shows how uncompetitive Sleep Powder is: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-900686982. As you can see, Lilligant functions as an extremely potent late-game sweeper that was able to sweep through the rest of the team mainly because of Sleep Powder. Without it, Probopass would have been able to Toxic-stall it a little bit but no. After it put Probopass to sleep on turn 20, it got to +2 which basically put the nail in the coffin (because I had Scarf Manectric in the back). Yes, it did have Lum Berry to cure the first Toxic but even if it had a different item, the results would have still been the same. Earlier in the match, I was forced to go into Probopass instead of Oricorio-G because of the 50/50 chance that it would go for Sleep Powder instead of Quiver Dance. Even with my own Lilligant, defensive Probopass, Scarf Manectric, and Oricorio-G as counterplay, I still got swept in the end.

I know there are times where Lilligant does literally nothing but I wanted to show how annoying and uncompetitive Sleep Powder can be, which makes Lilligant equally unpleasant to face unless you over-prepare for it. For these reasons, I would vote BAN if I got reqs.

Also, people are always talking about how there are way too many threats in the tier. I think getting rid of the biggest threat in the tier would help to solve this issue.

*The reason I used Heal Bell on turn 18 was because I only had HP Rock as my other coverage move. I could have gone into Scarf Manectric on that turn instead and clicked Flamethrower, but Flamethrower only does 51.2-60.4% to +1 Lilligant, which wasn't enough.
 

termi

bike is short for bichael
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
First off, I'm on the BAN side. Lilligant has so much versatility in its movepool that it can use to cheese through traditional checks and counters. For example, HP Ice stops opposing Lilligant, Altaria, Guzzlord, and Drampa. HP Fire stops opposing Lilligant, AlolaSlash, and Froslass. Also, you have more niche moves such as HP Rock which demolishes Articuno and Scyther. In fact, Lilligant with HP Rock + Aromatherapy can 6-0 common stall teams, but that's another story.

Then we have the two moves for which Lilligant is infamous: Z-Hyper Beam and Sleep Powder. Given its 200 Base Power, it's no surprise that Breakneck Blitz can break through common checks such as Victreebel, Skuntank, and Oricorio-E on the switch and steamroll Drampa and non-bulky Guzzlord at +1. Only the sturdiest of specially defensive walls such as Roselia and Type: Null can take a +1 hit of anything and fire back.

252+ SpA Chlorophyll Lilligant Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Victreebel: 283-334 (94 - 110.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Chlorophyll Lilligant Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Skuntank: 317-374 (91 - 107.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Chlorophyll Lilligant Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Oricorio-Pom-Pom: 285-336 (80.5 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Chlorophyll Lilligant Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 136 HP / 0 SpD Drampa: 345-406 (104.2 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Chlorophyll Lilligant Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Guzzlord: 529-623 (90.1 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Now we have Sleep Powder, which is an uncompetitive move in nature (especially when it's put on one of the faster Pokemon in the tier). When Sleep Powder actually hits its intended target, something is put to sleep which will most likely make it death fodder for the rest of the match unless you have Heal Bell or something. On the off chance that it misses and Lilligant gets KOed, the user of the move can just call "hax" on the opponent. Grass-types (other than Roselia) can't switch into the move because it's easy to predict that and get nuked or set up on. Drampa can switch in, unless the user predicts that and proceeds to go for +1. Sleep Powder (or the threat of it) can simply turn a slow check into set-up fodder.

Here's a replay that shows how uncompetitive Sleep Powder is: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-900686982. As you can see, Lilligant functions as an extremely potent late-game sweeper that was able to sweep through the rest of the team mainly because of Sleep Powder. Without it, Probopass would have been able to Toxic-stall it a little bit but no. After it put Probopass to sleep on turn 20, it got to +2 which basically put the nail in the coffin (because I had Scarf Manectric in the back). Yes, it did have Lum Berry to cure the first Toxic but even if it had a different item, the results would have still been the same. Earlier in the match, I was forced to go into Probopass instead of Oricorio-G because of the 50/50 chance that it would go for Sleep Powder instead of Quiver Dance. Even with my own Lilligant, defensive Probopass, Scarf Manectric, and Oricorio-G as counterplay, I still got swept in the end.

I know there are times where Lilligant does literally nothing but I wanted to show how annoying and uncompetitive Sleep Powder can be, which makes Lilligant equally unpleasant to face unless you over-prepare for it. For these reasons, I would vote BAN if I got reqs.

Also, people are always talking about how there are way too many threats in the tier. I think getting rid of the biggest threat in the tier would help to solve this issue.

*The reason I used Heal Bell on turn 18 was because I only had HP Rock as my other coverage move. I could have gone into Scarf Manectric on that turn instead and clicked Flamethrower, but Flamethrower only does 51.2-60.4% to +1 Lilligant, which wasn't enough.
that replay doesn't really demonstrate much, you had an oricorio in the back which would have made for a fine way to prevent lilligant from setting up, but you chose to let it die. your opponent didn't win because lilligant is just that broken, he won because he played a good game, kept his rocks up, perhaps got a bit lucky here and there, and had the right lilligant set to beat your probopass. you were decently prepped for lilligant to be sure, but you simply got bested in a few key turns (the zangoose doubled in vs gastrodon to take the lycanroc counter out, which then made you to stay in vs lycanroc with oricorio for fear of sd cleaning you up, which then meant that lilligant could set up without worry next time it came in) and i really dont see how a sweeper sweeping after its user provided the condtions for it to sweep is like, a bad thing. if this were a case of "the lilligant user clearly shouldn't have won here but pulled through because lilligant is broken" it would be a good pro-ban argument, but that simply isnt the case here. i actually wouldn't mind seeing lilligant leave, but i agree with megazard that the hard evidence that lilligant really is too much for the tier in its current state has been somewhat lacking thus far.
 

Kiyo

the cowboy kid
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huh? this isn't criminal court where it's innocent until proven guilty. it's on both sides to show reasoning and this statement is wrong imho.


there's been plenty of depth when people have talked about this both on discord and around ps. i honestly do not understand why you choose to ignore the teambuilding aspect when it's clearly a thing. it encourages very similar building and by making a load of teams being recycled versions of themselves it restricts not only the building but also limits a load of the meta being used as a consequence of this, this is an issue and you cannot just gloss over it with a half-arsed response when you barely make an effort to go deeper.


loads of teams, and not just fat balance like you keep repeating, run multiple checks to this pokemon. i've seen load of offensive teams run combos of alolaslash with pom / scarf dodrio to not lose to it. when a mon requires teams to have to prep heavily for this mon by reusing the same pokemon constantly, this doesn't promote a healthy meta. yeah ok there's teams with these "good mons" but how does this promote meta health when they're being constantly used.
Agree with Megazard, the onus is always on the ones trying to change the status quo in suspect discussions. It’s explicitly stated in the site’s tiering policy and is a big reason why we require more than a simple majority in most cases.

Is running a defensive pivot (that’s 4x weak to a common coverage move) and a scarfer now considered “heavily” prepping for a pokemon? Gee, things have changed I guess. You seem to be implying that a centralized metagame cannot be a healthy one, but this is not the case at all. If you want to make this into a compelling pro-ban argument you would need to explain why running the same pokemon on several different teams is a bad thing. I think you’re mistaking a fun metagame for a good metagame.
no it doesn't, pu has been a tier that has had a massive amount of versatility in previous metas and has constant innovation and new sets being created. mesprit, skuntank, froslass, are all extremely versatile so saying sd vs special busken is the next best thing is just dumb. not every pokemon needs to be able to run 7 sets to provide versatility. and the second half of your point is just incorrect. absolutely loads of players have said they've lost to lilligant because of it being the wrong set to what they predicted and i've watched it frequently on the ladder and experienced it first-hand.
Surely there are several games where Lilligant loses because it’s the wrong set? I think this is probably the weakest argument in this suspect. Potentially uninformed opinion warning: take with a grain of salt: “I predicted the wrong set and lost” Like what? The mon runs quiver dance and sleep powder on damn near every set, its going to have a grass move and you couldn’t outplay the 3 moves you knew without auto losing to the coverage move it runs? I guess I’ve seen no sleep on like aromatherapy sets, but I think anything outside of QD, SP, GD, coverage is probably just too inconsistent to see long term results.
ok let me give you a tl;dr list:

1) it promotes stale building and centralises the meta around it in a bad way, making slower scarf pokemon borderline non-existant and promoting the same pokemon to be used even on builds that aren't "fat offense"
2) it promotes a massive element of luck compared to basically every other mon in the tier. guessing the several sets it has and sleep powder's inconsistent turns makes playing against it a roll of the dice against a good player
3) it is very similar to something like pyroar. multiple sets and multiple checks that all lose to different sets, requiring you to have to risk scouting. pyroar, although in my opinion a more broken pokemon, was banned on the same premise so idg why you're shrugging off the "multiple sets being an issue" point

there isn't anymore to talk about because these are the problematic things to do with lilligant.
You still haven’t explained why this is problematic in any way. It really seems like you just don’t like it.

Guessing the set its running isn’t luck. Sleep Powder misses, you roll 3 turns sometimes, it’s the game we play.

I haven’t played a ton recently, but several others in this thread have listed means of checking lilligant offensively, and it sounds like you have passable defensive checks. Idk how accurate this is, but it seems to me like PU this gen has simply been tiering to get rid of things that upset the status quo of balanced teams being dominant. Lilligant is not broken in the traditional sense of the word, at best its unhealthy and the only real case that’s been made for that is that it’s centralizing. If you want to ban Lilligant for centralization, you should be able to explain why that’s unhealthy, and not just something that forces you to change the way teams are built.
 

Kiyo

the cowboy kid
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Below are the usage stats for the 45 ladder tournament games that have replays linked, in case anyone's curious. It's obviously a small sample size, but I think its a decent way to visualize what teams look like.

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Mesprit            |   47 |  52.22% |  46.81% |
| 2    | Sandslash-Alola    |   38 |  42.22% |  47.37% |
| 3    | Qwilfish           |   22 |  24.44% |  68.18% |
| 4    | Froslass           |   19 |  21.11% |  36.84% |
| 5    | Primeape           |   17 |  18.89% |  58.82% |
| 5    | Gurdurr            |   17 |  18.89% |  52.94% |
| 5    | Silvally           |   17 |  18.89% |  41.18% |
| 8    | Mudsdale           |   16 |  17.78% |  50.00% |
| 9    | Lilligant          |   15 |  16.67% |  33.33% |
| 10   | Lycanroc           |   13 |  14.44% |  46.15% |
| 11   | Guzzlord           |   12 |  13.33% |  66.67% |
| 11   | Scyther            |   12 |  13.33% |  58.33% |
| 11   | Kangaskhan         |   12 |  13.33% |  41.67% |
| 11   | Oricorio-Pom-Pom   |   12 |  13.33% |  33.33% |
| 15   | Aurorus            |   11 |  12.22% |  54.55% |
| 16   | Skuntank           |   10 |  11.11% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Hitmonchan         |    9 |  10.00% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Lanturn            |    9 |  10.00% |  55.56% |
| 17   | Drampa             |    9 |  10.00% |  55.56% |
| 17   | Regirock           |    9 |  10.00% |  33.33% |
| 17   | Aggron             |    9 |  10.00% |  33.33% |
| 22   | Clefairy           |    8 |   8.89% |  62.50% |
| 22   | Sableye            |    8 |   8.89% |  62.50% |
| 22   | Jellicent          |    8 |   8.89% |  37.50% |
| 25   | Tangela            |    7 |   7.78% |  85.71% |
| 25   | Spiritomb          |    7 |   7.78% |  85.71% |
| 25   | Omastar            |    7 |   7.78% |  57.14% |
| 25   | Audino             |    7 |   7.78% |  57.14% |
| 25   | Roselia            |    7 |   7.78% |  57.14% |
| 25   | Persian-Alola      |    7 |   7.78% |  28.57% |
| 25   | Quagsire           |    7 |   7.78% |  28.57% |
| 32   | Eelektross         |    6 |   6.67% |  50.00% |
| 32   | Metang             |    6 |   6.67% |   0.00% |
| 34   | Mawile             |    5 |   5.56% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Ludicolo           |    5 |   5.56% |  60.00% |
| 34   | Abomasnow          |    5 |   5.56% |  40.00% |
| 34   | Stoutland          |    5 |   5.56% |  20.00% |
| 34   | Poliwrath          |    5 |   5.56% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Manectric          |    4 |   4.44% |  75.00% |
| 39   | Dugtrio-Alola      |    4 |   4.44% |  75.00% |
| 39   | Articuno           |    4 |   4.44% |  50.00% |
| 39   | Kabutops           |    4 |   4.44% |  50.00% |
| 39   | Victreebel         |    4 |   4.44% |  25.00% |
| 39   | Shiftry            |    4 |   4.44% |  25.00% |
| 45   | Combusken          |    3 |   3.33% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Golurk             |    3 |   3.33% |  66.67% |
| 45   | Dodrio             |    3 |   3.33% |  66.67% |
| 45   | Lurantis           |    3 |   3.33% |  66.67% |
| 45   | Raichu-Alola       |    3 |   3.33% |  66.67% |
| 45   | Claydol            |    3 |   3.33% |  66.67% |
| 45   | Jynx               |    3 |   3.33% |  66.67% |
| 45   | Simisear           |    3 |   3.33% |  66.67% |
| 45   | Carracosta         |    3 |   3.33% |  33.33% |
| 45   | Liepard            |    3 |   3.33% |  33.33% |
| 55   | Altaria            |    2 |   2.22% | 100.00% |
| 55   | Sawsbuck-Winter    |    2 |   2.22% |  50.00% |
| 55   | Floatzel           |    2 |   2.22% |  50.00% |
| 55   | Lycanroc-Midnight  |    2 |   2.22% |  50.00% |
| 55   | Oricorio-Sensu     |    2 |   2.22% |   0.00% |
| 55   | Electrode          |    2 |   2.22% |   0.00% |
| 55   | Mr. Mime           |    2 |   2.22% |   0.00% |
| 62   | Gastrodon          |    1 |   1.11% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Ditto              |    1 |   1.11% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Bouffalant         |    1 |   1.11% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Carbink            |    1 |   1.11% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Rotom-Frost        |    1 |   1.11% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Shuckle            |    1 |   1.11% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Granbull           |    1 |   1.11% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Camerupt           |    1 |   1.11% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Muk                |    1 |   1.11% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Raticate-Alola     |    1 |   1.11% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Flareon            |    1 |   1.11% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Bronzor            |    1 |   1.11% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Simipour           |    1 |   1.11% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Rampardos          |    1 |   1.11% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Type: Null         |    1 |   1.11% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Throh              |    1 |   1.11% |   0.00% |
| 62   | Simisage           |    1 |   1.11% |   0.00% |
| 62   | Volbeat            |    1 |   1.11% |   0.00% |
| 62   | Natu               |    1 |   1.11% |   0.00% |
| 62   | Wormadam-Trash     |    1 |   1.11% |   0.00% |
| 62   | Crabominable       |    1 |   1.11% |   0.00% |
| 62   | Leafeon            |    1 |   1.11% |   0.00% |
| 62   | Pawniard           |    1 |   1.11% |   0.00% |
| 62   | Sandslash          |    1 |   1.11% |   0.00% |
| 62   | Drifblim           |    1 |   1.11% |   0.00% |
| 62   | Stunfisk           |    1 |   1.11% |   0.00% |
| 62   | Gorebyss           |    1 |   1.11% |   0.00% |
These are the links to actual replays.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-897974145https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-897971830https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-897974145https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-897974145https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-898898931https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-898901572https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-898907635https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-898935473https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-898945703http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899016882http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899031370http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899040663https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899332088https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899336199https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899532874https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899536984https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899593189https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899599016https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899606505https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899605736https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899613828https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899620175https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899626860https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899634352https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899929668https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899931847https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899935469https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899981501https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899985446https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-899989158https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-900055630https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-900050372https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-900129814https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-900137284https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-900143084http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-900406015http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-900409156http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-900666492http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-900676661https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-900796856https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-900798666https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-900801269https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-902074905https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-902077632https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-902079596


I tried to watch them all, but even in a tournament you had to qualify for, people play like dogshit and it's really not fun to watch. I stopped after a few games, some of which I'll offer a bit of commentary on while I'm still sane.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-898901572https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-898907635these are from robjr's r1 set vs beeru. beeru takes some pretty terrible lines in both games, but I wanted to comment on team structure in these 2 games.
robjr's team: Gastrodon / Mesprit / Sandslash-Alola / Skuntank / Lilligant / Hitmonchan
Beeru's team: Skuntank / Gurdurr / Ludicolo / Oricorio-Pom-Pom / Mesprit / Sandslash-Alola
I could make the case that all of beeru's six mons deal with lilligant in some way, rob obv has skunk/slash paired with tox support from gastro and mach support from chan as a means to check. this isn't overboard by any means when u consider the role compression that goes on here, i think you can argue skunk / snowslash are even more important for mesprit than lilligant.

robjr's team: Lilligant / Qwilfish / Aurorus / Hitmonchan / Golurk / Kangaskhan
Beeru's team: Skuntank / Lilligant / Hitmonchan / Carracosta / Mesprit / Electrode
rob literally has one grass resist in lilligant, but nothing on his team gets set up on safely by Lilli bar qwil, aurorus lives a hit and ohkoes if they miss sleep, chan 2hkos and takes unboosted hits like a champ, golurk prob has toxic as a way to not lose if they do decide to boost on u , kang does 35ish with fake out, 30ish with sucker and takes any non-zmove hit boosted or not. in no way is rob going out of his way to hard counter lilli but he has more than sufficient counterplay, and i'd argue more reliable counterplay than a slow fat team with drampa / skunk / slash becuase those teams are more dependent on a single slot to check, are more vulnerable to lures, and simply get put in bad spots because they are over-reliant on their limited counterplay.

I'd be happy to take a look at any replays the pro-ban side has for Lilligant being overpowered or winning a game by the opp "guessing the wrong set", if they're one of the ones I linked even better. But looking at team preview from the 45 replays linked and a small subset of games, I just don't see it being banworthy. There's plenty of variance in the tier and its arguably in a state of flux with the recent addition of guzz still yet to fully play out imo.

Ok, I think I'm done with this until some pro-ban replays are posted. Sorry for the double post and rambling etc.
 
Last edited:

2xTheTap

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Something I said in jest a few months ago:

173539


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https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/xyani/magmortar.gif

Lilligant in Past Metas

Lilligant is likely a more complex case to tease apart than other suspects, and while I'm leaning pro ban at the moment, this is not a threat that can be labeled as broken, nor was it able to be in the past, as those older metas were rife with threats like AV Magmortar, bulky Oricorio-G, Ferroseed, Pyroar, etc., that could fit naturally together on the same team. Lilligant preparation was essentially already done without thinking about it too much, and these were reliable in keeping Lilligant from sweeping full teams single-handedly by sufficiently covering each of its possible movesets. Even as we've lost a fair number of Lilligant's checks leading up to its ascension to S rank, there were still other, more pressing cases to deal with prior to Lilligant, which can help explain the somewhat awkward timing of this suspect. Lilligant was arguably at its peak in effectiveness from in between Pyroar's ban and Guzzlord's return, but it really took the back burner as it was overshadowed by Pokemon many players considered to be more immediately threatening, like Alolan Exeggutor.

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Lilligant as a Centralizing Force

Even now, voting ban this suspect might look questionable to some given how much counterplay Lilligant realistically has: Alolan Sandslash, Oricorio-E, Guzzlord, and Dodrio are the usual checks that you'll see, and there are many others like Skuntank, Roselia, Drampa, Scarf Primeape, specially defensive Articuno, etc., such that nearly every team archetype has a teamslot available to fit some sort of answer for Lilligant. It's a potent threat that's been around the entire meta, so it's a given that there's been a high degree of meta adaptation in addressing Lilligant from a teambuilding perspective. And while it might look palatable from a cursory point of view as a result of this long-term adaptation, I argue that it's overcentralizing to the point teambuilding has become stale.
Lilligant isn't an outright broken threat that lacks counterplay by any means; instead, the same Pokemon that are used to answer it are extraordinarily common. I'll link some replays below showing you just how often these are used in combination to answer each of Lilligant's potential movesets, while also providing the role compression necessary to cover the rest of the meta (ex. Oricorio-E also covering for Gurdurr; Alolan Sandslash also checking Aurorus, Mesprit, and Jynx; Dodrio RKOing other sweepers and cleaners like Ludicolo and offensive Alolan Sandslash; etc.):

I pretty much just searched for council members' replays from within the last 4 months, as well as replays from our most recent ladder tournament and found that the majority of these battles had these sorts of team configurations like Metang+Roselia+Guzzlord or Alolan Sandslash+Oricorio-E+Guzzlord ready to prevent being swept by each of Lilligant's different sets. There are many more replays like these, but this should be enough to serve as evidence that Lilligant is centralizing to an unhealthy extent.

https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/xyani/lilligant.gif

Variability in Sets

Its "coinflippy" nature is partly behind players feeling obligated to build with multiple Lilligant checks; sometimes Sleep will last a turn longer than expected, leading it to muscle past one of its would-be counters in some instances. Its versatility also compounds this, leaving you liable to be swept by the set you weren't thinking about. Z-Hyper Beam after SR OHKOes Oricorio-E and Skuntank (and Sleep Powder prevents Dancer from activating); HP Fire KOes Alolan Sandslash; Z-Sleep Powder + Quiver Dance puts Lilligant +2 Speed, effectively allowing it to outspeed all of our go-to Choice Scarf users; Toxic on the Lilligant switch-in from defensive Pokemon like Regirock and Quagsire isn't effective against sets with Z-Heal Bell or Z-Aromatherapy, etc. I also wouldn't say that scouting its set is an effective way of combating its versatility either, as this kind of tactic may lead to it obtaining an extra QD boost and can therefore be extremely punishing. This leads me to question the merits of keeping this in the tier if it both requires multiple checks to beat it consistently, and if these same checks are nearly omnipresent across games occurring at a high(er) level of play.

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Preventing a Sweep

To make matters worse, viable Choice Scarf users that both outspeed +1 Lilligant (460 Spe or higher) and are able to OHKO it through a SpDef boost provided by Quiver Dance (after SR) are relatively scarce, which only reinforces this notion that Lilligant is overly constrictive with regard to teambuilding:

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This isn't to say that scarfers slower than +1 Lilligant don't exist. Of course mid-Speed scarfers will still be used, but they'll be used more for specific functions (for example, beating Pokemon common to rain teams in Abomasnow's / Aurorus's / Kabutops's cases and checking a large portion of the unboosted meta in general), rather than trying generally to maintain utility in RKOing boosted sweepers like Lilligant. If you do choose one of these mid-Speed scarfers, you will either need a second Choice Scarf user faster than +1 Lilligant, or alternatively, a hard counter to +1 Lilligant (which is much riskier if entry hazards are in play). For the express function of RKOing +1 Lilligant, there's only a handful of options available (and can explain why you mostly see either Primeape or Dodrio on offense, bulky offense, and balance), which again supports this idea that the degree to which Lilligant is centralizing is excessive. It may be obvious, but just to drive the point home, this game is a decent example of what happens if you're relying only on mid-Speed scarfers to pressure Lilligant out of setting up, rather than answering it with a faster scarfer or some mixture of Pokemon like Alolan Sandslash+Oricorio-E to counter each of its sets.

Conclusion: DNB?

On the flipside, we're seeing a lot of teams with multiple Lilligant checks built with its versatility in mind, but Lilligant itself is weirdly uncommon in top level play. It's highly effective and versatile, but its defensive utility is lacking enough to the point it's not splashable. Lilligant tends to not lend its team much support as far as switching directly into threats goes (different from how Victreebel interacts with threats like Gurdurr, for example); rather, builds with Lilligant are built intentionally around this Pokemon. yogi pretty much hit the nail on the head when he talked about its 'splashability' and how there are only a few builds that fit Lilligant well without becoming weak to something else,
...while i don't think it is straight "broken" like things such as archeops and magmortar were, i do think it's very unhealthy, especially from a teambuilding aspect. while it isn't actually the most splashable mon, the teams it work on really, really work and just put too much pressure on building. there's not a single check, bar absolute shit mons like spd sliggoo, that can check all its sets so same with pyroar you've got to play some of the game scouting it, which is deadly af when this mon had qd+sleep. this mon going will really balance out pu and i hope people vote ban.
At this point I'm not sure what I'll vote - there are a few factors pulling me in each direction; I really searched high and low for replays, and it turns out it's actually kind of rare to see Lilligant break past its own counters or just overpower full teams that were built with it in mind. At the same time however, you can see above from those replays I posted that it's hugely centralizing and has a stifling effect on teambuilding. Hopefully after having read this, you'll better know how to vote. Let's Pokemon Go to the polls!
 
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This is going to be my first post trying to unpack a suspect test, here goes nothing.

Anyway, I'm having trouble seeing this one as banworthy. Most of the common answers to it that are being utilized and discussed are viable even if the opponent isn't running Lilligant, and there are a fair amount of them to work with offensively and defensively. You can't realistically have a metagame without specific threats to account for in teambuilder - that's harmful if people are having to scrape the barrel for stuff like Bouffalant, but centralization isn't inherently bad.

There's also been a lot of discussion on Lilligant's versatility. Honestly, I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen it doing anything but try to sweep with Quiver Dance and that set requires you to run Sleep Powder and a STAB move. I can't imagine Lilligant is regularly changing the tide of a match because someone mispredicted what Hidden Power it has or something.

On the other hand, a Pokemon with both set and role versatility (wallbreaker/cleric options as opposed to the standard setup sweeper) is pretty uncommon so I do have a degree of hesitation about whether Lilligant's alternate options place it a cut above, particularly in a low-usage metagame like this one where there's only so much a lot of Pokemon CAN do. Still, I don't see those other sets as either broken or unique so that has more to do with figuring out whether they have too much impact on counterplay.

Going to keep checking replays leading up to the vote but currently planning to vote NO BAN.
 

EviGaro

is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
RU Leader
I don't have much to add to this convo, but hey as someone who has pushed for this thing to be banned for... months I think I guess I should still outline a few reasons why I stressed this so much.

The first and most important one to me is probably the one where I can lose people very easily but is kinda central here: Quiver Dance is an inherently broken move and is only a "small" issue in tiering due to the awful upside of most mons having access to the move. However, the moment a mon that is in fairness good gets it, it becomes visibly problematic really quickly. Now I'm not going to rant about people not really bothering to do something about a certain mon in a certain other tier, but there's common traits to most good qd mons: they stress teambuilding, force weird adapting around them, and generally end up with a variant of sets centered around a core concept that is by itself extremely potent and deserving of consideration on any team that wants to pretend it's good.

In Lilligant's case in particular, its issues are twofold: one is that its stab is extremely good in the metagame. The ban on most fires and the fact that the only few steels that are like decent are super susceptible to it make its lack of coverage, as noted by a few, largely insignificant. And that pushes on its second issue to me, in that it has extremely viable utility that not only, if played well, can benefit its sweep, it can also benefit its team. Sleep is a really annoying mechanic in general, with fairly limited counterplay, and its one of the good offensive clerics that can not only alleviate its status susceptibility but also its team. Now again, those two points aren't, by themselves, factors that would make any mon broken. But when added to QD they highlight the reality that this metagame simply lacks what can reasonably called "mitigating factors" to its use. Put it another way, using Lilligant is a lot easier than not use it, as you get an excessively dangerous sweeper of the bat due to a metagame being less and less equipped offensively and defensively, on top of extremely good utility for offensive teams.

Now you can point out that it doesn't win a whole lot in ways that your standard broken mons should theoretically do. Part of it is overprep, but going back to those replays where teams are "somewhat" prepared... let's be real, a lot of teams are one bad turn away from just losing to it. I didn't even lose a game to Lilli in my run, but any game I played it it was the same: I position myself the best I can in the late game but if that one turn goes wrong or I miss a move I probably just lost. That happened... four or five times I think? This sort of rolling the dice annoy me and kinda just made me feel a while ago that Lilligant is itself not super competitive, and part of it is that escalation effect that Quiver Dance by itself bring to a mon that is reasonably well placed in the meta - surprisingly ok typing, utility, good offensive tools, not super weak to common priority and fast enough - and that on almost any team tends to be a hey let's see what happen with this thing on the field.
 

TheUndeclared243

Banned deucer.
I unfortunately ran out of time to get reqs, but I'll post my thoughts regarding Lilligant anyway. I'm new to Smogon and the process behind banning Pokemon, but my understanding is that a Pokemon has to be so tier-warping that teams must warp an unreasonable amount to even have a chance of dealing with said Pokemon, or so "unhealthy" that the tier would be better off without it (whatever that means). I think that the philosophy tiers should exercise is playability over enjoyability, because the latter sets a dangerous precedent. Therefore, I think Lilligant a very good Pokemon, one that can run a myriad of sets, but it is by no means tier-breaking, or even moderately unhealthy for the tier. I think that Lilligant can win games, but not effortlessly. It still has to be wielded properly and supported effectively by its teammates to do its job, and it is definitely stoppable. I think it provides a unique challenge to the tier regarding teambuilding, but not an insurmountable one. Therefore, if I could vote, I would vote Do Not Ban.
 
I tried and failed to get reqs but i had a great time with lilligant. If i had the choice to vote i would say No Ban. I really agree with a lot of what Ktut and for most of the replays posted they let lilligant set up. I mean thats the job of a setup sweeper isnt it? We have had many suspects before every test weve had has been a 100% ban rate and its because those mons had 1 check or weird unmon checks which constricts teambuilding opportunities. Lilligant on the other hand has multiple checks of viable pokemon. You have the oricorios, snowslash, primeape, dodrio, scyther, Guzzlord, (drampa if not z hyper beam), Kangaskhan and hitmonchan to an extent and even some lower rank mons such as bouffalant and Hakamo-o (both of these are niche mons but they beat lilli well). Most of those pokemon are still good even when they are facing a lilligant. Lilligant is also the most consistent setup sweeper in the tier. The only other that gets the job done nearly as well as liligant is jynx maybe, but jynx only sets up once where as lilligant has multiple opportunities to do its job. In the end i just found lilligant to be a setup sweeper that does its job well. Therefore if i could i would vote NO BAN.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
Lilligant will be missed </3 never used it, but it gave the tier clear direction.

I think base 60 scarfers will blow up shop way more and expect more banded dodrio. Set up sweepers like shell smashers will still need to thought about but most mach punches put that in place

Meta will get slower for sure
 
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