Metagame np: SV Ubers Stage 1 - Ghost Train

[Fc]

​

The Ubers Council has unanimously decided to quickban Calyrex-Shadow and retest it into the tier, effective immediately.

Reasoning:

To few people's surprise, Calyrex-S is back on the chopping block after surviving a suspect test in generation 8. This time around, it's equipped with the universal tool of terastallization. Also this time around, Yveltal and Ho-Oh, the best answer and soft pivot into Calyrex-S, respectively, aren't in the game. In the short time we've had the home metagame Calyrex-S has already shown its immense influence, being near unbeatable if you face the wrong set. Tera Fighting is the main offender currently, taking down Arceus Normal and Dark, Ting-Lu, and any slightly less bulky but more offensive Dark-types like Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao who could normally threaten a revenge kill. This isn't mentioning Tera Fairy as well, which is a Sucker Punch resist just like Tera Fighting while also powering up Draining Kiss to keep Calyrex-S healthy. This versatility in changing types completely flips the already very few bad matchups Calyrex-S has, making it not possible to reliably beat in game or in the teambuilder, to an extent the council and a number of the playerbase considers completely unhealthy. Once it gets going, As One is just as powerful as ever, so stopping it likely requires multiple Pokemon if it brings a set to beat the few potential checks.

The best answers to Calyrex-S is shaping up to be Ekiller, who is the only Arceus that can hold an item for longevity like Leftovers or Heavy-Duty Boots while also being immune to Astral Barrage. Tera Fighting completely ignores this, threatening an OHKO on even the most bulky Arceus after a Nasty Plot, and the opportunity cost of max special defense arceus is already high due to it needing attack investment to pose an offensive threat. Arceus Dark similarly falls to this set as well as Draining Kiss Tera Fairy, and the formerly mentioned other Dark-types are only reliable against the more niche choiced sets that don't run Tera Blast.

Not all is perfect for Calyrex-S, though, as it still has the same few flaws as in generation 8. It's very frail by Ubers standards, so with speed control and priority being very common it can be susceptible to revenge kills. Additionally, hazards have never been harder to remove, so it can be worn down slowly by switching in. It lost Aromatherapy, which was its biggest utility move in generation 8, but that works both ways, as now defensive answers to Calyrex-S have very few ways of clearing status if they need to survive for longer. Finally, terastallization remains unpredictable, so sometimes it can fall to very specific techs designed to bait certain sets, but those are far riskier to use on a team than Calyrex-S with its offensive tera sets, and Calyrex-S can also use midgrouns like Psyshock on potential Tera Normal Pokemon or just brute force them thanks to As One snowballing.

Calyrex-S has been quickbanned instead of just suspect tested due to Ubers Open going on and UPL starting very shortly. We didn't believe a stable, healthy metagame would show through in those tournaments with tera Calyrex-S legal, so we are quickbanning it for those tournaments but maintaining it on ladder for the duration of the suspect test. The council voted on whether or not told hold a regular suspect test or to quickban and retest, and it was a unanimous 7-0 in favour of a quickban.

Why Not Terastallization?:

Since this question will come up I will address it here. After discussing with tiering administration, it was decided that the best way to approach this problem would be to tackle Calyrex-S first and then see how the meta deals with other threats later on. Calyrex-S is a clear outlier in power, and terastallization is a controversial mechanic that defines the generation and has survived the only official suspect test it's been put through. We will definitely be keeping a very close eye on it if anything else becomes problematic, and potentially testing it later in this metagame as well as future ones, in which case Calyrex-S may be able to have another chance at the tier.

Suspect Test Information

• The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice. For reference, there's a minimum games required table posted below.
• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be UBGH. For example, I might sign up with the ladder account UBGH Fc.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitation when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular Ubers ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• We will be posting the voting identification thread shortly after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a moderator. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
• The suspect test will go on for just under two weeks, lasting until June 11th, 10:30 PM GMT -4, and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

Minimum Games Required Table

GXE	Minimum Games Required
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, more so than the average Ubers forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:

Suspect Test Rules

• Do not discuss the banning or restriction of terastallization. The reasoning for Calyrex-S being tested was outlined, any posts on solely terastallization will be deleted.
• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects;
• No discussion on the suspect process;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the Ubers Council and the Ubers Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the Ubers Council, an Ubers Tier Leader (myself or Aberforth), or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

The test will run until Sunday June 11th, 10:30 PM GMT -4. In order to ban Calyrex-Shadow, a 66.6% supermajority will be required. If you meet the requirements then post a screenshot in the voting requirements thread - but please take note of the criteria outlined there when you do in order to be eligible!

Current Ubers Council

Aberforth
Fc
Fogbound Lake
Inder
Manaphy
Minority
SiTuM

Tagging Kris and Marty to announce this on the Ubers ladder, thank you.

 

[ox04]

The best answers to Calyrex-S is shaping up to be Ekiller

Right...
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 226-267 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 200-236 (45 - 53.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO

In my opinion the best way to check Calyrex is pressuring it with hazards, Choice Scarfers, and Tera Normal. If you're using at least two Choice Scarfers and one Tera Normal user you're fine. And it's not like all this is purely for Calyrex. The only real restriction Calyrex has is forcing Tera Normal on one of your Pokemon and that's it.

Calyrex-S can also use midgrouns like Psyshock on potential Tera Normal Pokemon

This is another thing, why would you use Psyshock over Psychic?
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 276-326 (80.9 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I hope this is enough.

More on this topic; Psychic is not that good. You aren't OHKOing anything if you are Scarf, and if you aren't every Choice Scarfer will beat you. It's not like you're forcing 5050s that will lose you the game on the spot if the Caly user gets the prediction right. Caly can't snowball that fast and all the moves it can lock itself into are highly exploitable. It's either your team or your playing that isn't competent enough for Calyrex to consistently spiral out of control against you.

This is why I don't think that Calyrex should be banned. The metagame seems pretty stable to me, because it's not like consistency is unachievable. All it takes is some adapting to like any other presence in the current Ubers metagame. Caly is not that good. It's either revenged by every Scarfer or Scarf itself which you can exploit.

 

[bdt2002]

Well, so much for half of the Ditto post I just wrote in the metagame discussion thread. Note to self: see if any tiering actions have taken place before writing a new post.

But hey, if it means won’t be transforming into anymore, then that’s absolutely a trade-off I’m willing to make at the cost of said post being made mostly irrelevant.

 

[Rust Dust and Guts]

Right...
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 226-267 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 200-236 (45 - 53.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO

In my opinion the best way to check Calyrex is pressuring it with hazards, Choice Scarfers, and Tera Normal. If you're using at least two Choice Scarfers and one Tera Normal user you're fine. And it's not like all this is purely for Calyrex. The only real restriction Calyrex has is forcing Tera Normal on one of your Pokemon and that's it.


This is another thing, why would you use Psyshock over Psychic?
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 276-326 (80.9 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I hope this is enough.

More on this topic; Psychic is not that good. You aren't OHKOing anything if you are Scarf, and if you aren't every Choice Scarfer will beat you. It's not like you're forcing 5050s that will lose you the game on the spot if the Caly user gets the prediction right. Caly can't snowball that fast and all the moves it can lock itself into are highly exploitable. It's either your team or your playing that isn't competent enough for Calyrex to consistently spiral out of control against you.

This is why I don't think that Calyrex should be banned. The metagame seems pretty stable to me, because it's not like consistency is unachievable. All it takes is some adapting to like any other presence in the current Ubers metagame. Caly is not that good. It's either revenged by every Scarfer or Scarf itself which you can exploit.

"If you're using at least two choice scarfers, you're fine"
"The only real restriction is forcing Tera"

So being forced into using two or MORE (You said at least) isn't a restriction?
What are you on and where can I get some?
What on Earth has happened to this meta?

 

[ox04]

"If you're using at least two choice scarfers, you're fine"
"The only real restriction is forcing Tera"

So being forced into using two or MORE (You said at least) isn't a restriction?
What are you on and where can I get some?
What on Earth has happened to this meta?

Your inability to interpret what I said is not a counterargument. I said "And it's not like all this is purely for Calyrex." so I'm not sure what don't you understand. I never said you have to Tera in every game, just have that option on the team. I have no idea what you're saying in the rest of your message.

 

[Corporate Donkey]

Right...
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 226-267 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 200-236 (45 - 53.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO

In my opinion the best way to check Calyrex is pressuring it with hazards, Choice Scarfers, and Tera Normal. If you're using at least two Choice Scarfers and one Tera Normal user you're fine. And it's not like all this is purely for Calyrex. The only real restriction Calyrex has is forcing Tera Normal on one of your Pokemon and that's it.


This is another thing, why would you use Psyshock over Psychic?
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Koraidon: 276-326 (80.9 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I hope this is enough.

More on this topic; Psychic is not that good. You aren't OHKOing anything if you are Scarf, and if you aren't every Choice Scarfer will beat you. It's not like you're forcing 5050s that will lose you the game on the spot if the Caly user gets the prediction right. Caly can't snowball that fast and all the moves it can lock itself into are highly exploitable. It's either your team or your playing that isn't competent enough for Calyrex to consistently spiral out of control against you.

This is why I don't think that Calyrex should be banned. The metagame seems pretty stable to me, because it's not like consistency is unachievable. All it takes is some adapting to like any other presence in the current Ubers metagame. Caly is not that good. It's either revenged by every Scarfer or Scarf itself which you can exploit.

I honestly can't tell whether or not you're trolling after I read the words "as long as you're at least using two choice scarfers and tera normal you're fine", but regardless of whether you're serious or not, saying Caly can't snowball that fast is wrong when it has an incredibly spammable stab move, and when you only have 3 switch-ins for its astral barrage(two of which being Arceus), or be forced to use up your tera just to have a chance at revenge killing it.

 

[Eledyr]

In my opinion the best way to check Calyrex is pressuring it with hazards, Choice Scarfers, and Tera Normal. If you're using at least two Choice Scarfers and one Tera Normal user you're fine. And it's not like all this is purely for Calyrex. The only real restriction Calyrex has is forcing Tera Normal on one of your Pokemon and that's it.

This perspective is misguided, and I'll explain why.

Firstly, claiming that Calyrex can be effectively pressured by hazards, scarfers, and Tera Normal users oversimplifies the situation. While these strategies can certainly pose a threat to Calyrex, they are not foolproof solutions, and forces multiple adaptions, as very little hazard setters are safe against Calyrex-Shadow, and so are scarfers. Calyrex has access to a good enough move pool, letting it break through most of the options you mentioned, let it be Draining Kiss, Trick, Nasty Plot, or even Tera Blast + Tera Fight to disrupt the opponent's game plan. Also on the subject of Tera Normal, it's as true for Calyrex-S as it is for Tera Normal users, that using Tera is a massive commitment and a one time surprise factor. But a reactive defensive Tera means the Calyrex-S user is the player with the momentum, meaning it has more room for playing around the Tera, and Normal-type doesn't bring any sort of defensive utility outside of "being immune to Astral Barrage", making it a big loss on top of it.

More on this topic; Psychic is not that good. You aren't OHKOing anything if you are Scarf, and if you aren't every Choice Scarfer will beat you. It's not like you're forcing 5050s that will lose you the game on the spot if the Caly user gets the prediction right.

Saying that Psychic-type moves are not effective is either out of the question, or irrelevant. What makes Calyrex shines is once again its signature ability Astral Barrage, and Psyshock only punishes Blissey, which is a poor choice in the current metagame. It'd make far more sense to talk about its coverages, like the aforementioned Draining Kiss, Tera Blast (Fight), and even options like Pollen Puff and Grass Knot to deal with Arceus-Dark and other Dark-types like Ting-Lu and Tyranitar (it also hits Kyogre for super effective damages).

Caly can't snowball that fast and all the moves it can lock itself into are highly exploitable.

Claiming that Calyrex cannot snowball a game quickly is... at best misleading. With Nasty Plot and Grim Neigh, it can become a formidable force easily. This fails to acknowledge its potential to sweep through teams as, as mentioned before, counter options are lacking, even more since Yveltal and Ho-Oh are cruelly lacking to have some form of a defensive pivot that can check it.

Regarding the argument that Calyrex should not be banned because the metagame seems stable and adaptable, it overlooks the impact Calyrex has on teambuilding and gameplay. Calyrex's presence alone forces teams to dedicate specific checks and counters to it as the aforementioned:

If you're using at least two Choice Scarfers and one Tera Normal user you're fine.

This is an hint in how the variety and creativity in team composition is overcentralized around Calyrex.

 

[LouisIX]

I am quite concerned about the point that arceus normal is the "best" answer to caly S. The fact that arceus normal aka ekiller is bearing a heavy offensive role, makes it becomes a bait instead of an answer against caly S. Caly S is so free to bring an encore on its moveslot, and this means ekiller will never be able to click espeed safe. This further forcing them to run Dragon Dance instead of Swords dance. i am not gonna argue which one is more suitable on ekiller but anyway who cares caly just come and encore and you will either give your ekiller or make your switchin eats astral or grass knot.

Eledyr post said the most I wanted to say.

to be honest, it is hilarious to me seeing people talking a lot of "ekiller answer to caly" and they never use ekiller, instead, "just use two scarfers and tera normal and you will be fine."

me being too stupid to understand this tier

 

[ox04]

While these strategies can certainly pose a threat to Calyrex, they are not foolproof solutions, and forces multiple adaptions, as very little hazard setters are safe against Calyrex-Shadow, and so are scarfers.

There isn't a foolproof way to deal with the majority of the tier's threats, isn't this what makes the tier so fun? There are no foolproof walls, but there are a plethora of ways to deal with Calyrex. In the end it comes down to playing better than your opponent and strategizing in advance, but that's a key for winning a match in any balanced metagame so I don't see how that's a problem.

Saying that Psychic-type moves are not effective is either out of the question, or irrelevant.

I never said anything about Psychic-type moves, I was only talking about the move "Psychic." And I didn't at any point say that it was "irrelevant."

Claiming that Calyrex cannot snowball a game quickly is... at best misleading.

I never said it can't snowball through a team quickly, all I said is that is that it "can't snowball that fast." What I meant by this is that it is possible to prevent it from snowballing through your team quickly.

counter options are lacking

Good thing, that's what I covered first.

Regarding the argument that Calyrex should not be banned because the metagame seems stable and adaptable, it overlooks the impact Calyrex has on teambuilding and gameplay. Calyrex's presence alone forces teams to dedicate specific checks and counters to it as the aforementioned

It doesn't require specific checks. I already listed universal ways to deal with it. Also, if you think that the reason for using Ekiller is because it's a "specific check" for Calyrex then you might be the one that's misguided.

You are required to make respectful posts

Now from what I was able to decipher this applies to everyone, even if you're a moderator or if your opinion coincides with the majority. I want to point out Eledyr for mocking and disrespecting me and my opinion. Here's what I mean:

This perspective is misguided, and I'll explain why.

Claiming that Calyrex cannot snowball a game quickly is... at best misleading

I don't know if you are genuine with your arguments, but they feel extremely misleading and poor.

This was phrased in an overly aggressive way. You can't claim that I'm "misguided" or that my arguments are "extremely poor" just because we disagree. This and the previous posts really disturbed me and I want something done about people mocking me just because they disagree. Haha reacting to my post also doesn't help.
(Please work on your grammar man.)

 

[clare]

As much as I love Caly-S I think this time around it should be a ban: because of Tera, Caly-S now has no counters (in the Smogon tradition a "counter" is a 'mon which can switch in at full health on _any set_ and win one on one).

Tera gives you nonsense like:

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fighting Calyrex-Shadow Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 294-348 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fighting Calyrex-Shadow Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 402-474 (90.5 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

and in return

252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fighting Calyrex-Shadow: 163-193 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO

Calyrex-S is the fastest Pokemon in the game bar Regieleki which means any non-Scarf Pokemon will need to take two hits to be a counter and unfortunately, Specs Tera Fighting Calyrex-S 2HKOes every Pokemon.

 

[LeapsFrog]

I haven't had many issues with Calyrex-Shadow as I noticed that the majority of my team can do something against it. However, I am on lower ladder so I haven't faced the best users yet. It also seems to be a Pokemon with many checks but few or no counters. Here are some checks that exist that could be useful against Calyrex Shadow.

I have used Arceus-Ground with Dragon Dance and have given it enough Speed IVs to be faster after just one DD.
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground: 268-316 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground: 201-237 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 366-432 (107.3 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It loses to Choice Scarf Kyogre easily. If your running Calyrex Shadow Koriadon would be a great teammate for this scenario.
252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Calyrex-Shadow in Rain: 408-481 (119.6 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Calyrex-Shadow in Rain: 298-352 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 234-276 (68.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Basculegion in rain is the worst thing a Calyrex-Shadow could possibly face.
252 Atk Basculegion Last Respects vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 360-424 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This calculation was done with Last Respects at 50 BP which means you don't even need dead teammates to use Basculegion.
Of course though without Rocks a Focus Sash variant could easily 1HKO back.

Another check that I haven't used but exists is Choice Scarf Chi-Yu.
252+ SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Calyrex-Shadow: 780-924 (228.7 - 270.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Calyrex-Shadow: 220-261 (64.5 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chi-Yu: 149-176 (59.3 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Basically screwed without Tera Fighting.
However, you can out predict it with Tera Blast Fighting.
252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chi-Yu: 270-318 (107.5 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Calyrex-Shadow: 294-348 (86.2 - 102%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


It was never mentioned in the thread yet, but Tera Grass Calyrex-Shadow is also a viable option as well to counter Water and Ground Types, and could have demolished my team easily.
The issue with Calyrex Shadow seems to centered on a lot of predictions of what exactly it would do. As if you make a wrong prediction it can easily snowball into a loss if you do not have Pokemon faster than it. Also many Pokemon would need to be able take +1 attacks to being able to check it in many situations, and even if so if they are the bulky side they could lose to a Nasty Plot set. Open team sheet would theoretically nerf Calyrex Shadow, as it has many possible different move sets, but obviously this is not being considered at the moment as an option.

 

[Cepha]

The horse has absolutely got to go. Caly-S is incredibly menacing given the absence of Ho-Oh's gargantuan special defence and Yveltal's overall sizeable bulk, favourable typing and the reliable recovery of both. Ubers has been swayed far too much in favour of offence / hyper offence this Gen namely due to the nigh-on unwallable Miraidon, and the introduction of Zacian-C and, more notably, Caly-S has exacerbated the gap between offence and other play-styles. Presently, I've been using the following set to good effect, though scarf, specs, and sub plot are all notable as well - this Pokémon is highly versatile!

@ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: As One (Spectrier)
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Astral Barrage
- Psyshock
- Grass Knot
- Nasty Plot

On paper, Darkceus is one of the better Pokémon primed to take on Caly-S, but you're then locking yourself out of a reliable Miraidon check in bulky Groundceus, having to rely on something lacking in reliable recovery such as Groudon instead. Not to mention passing up on the sweeping potential of EKiller Normalceus, whose relevance has been improved by the ability to tera ghost and break Pokémon such as Giratina / guard against opposing extreme speed and win an EKiller 1 v 1, or tera normal to become devastating in power at +2.

From what I have seen, Ting-Lu is looking to be the most common answer to Caly-S, with a favourable typing against both it and Miraidon, and can chunk both of them back heavily even with a zero investment earthquake. It is also a nice answer to the somewhat fringe Regieleki, and can set up a lot of hazard pressure, which is good in the current meta considering how much offence is running around with sub-par, or even without, removal. However, even Ting-Lu is soundly 2HKO'd by a +1 or +2 grass knot. Ting-Lu is also vulnerable to Kyogre, who is common right now in feeding into the swift swim Basculegion endgame playstyle. Though on the topic of Kyogre, don't think yourself safe due to your natural special bulk...

+1 252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 350-414 (102.6 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I don't even think offensive tera is the biggest problem with Caly-S. Sure, it can tera fighting or tera fairy to work around dark types, but the fundamental issue is that we don't really have usable dark types outside of Ting-Lu. Thus, Caly-S can afford to run a defensive tera such as dark or normal to avoid the uncommon throat chop from Ting-Lu and prevent it from being revenged by opposing scarf Caly-S or protosynthesis speed Flutter Mane.

In short, Caly-S is warping teambuilding severely and making for match-up fishy games, and so should I meet the voting threshold I will certainly be voting to ban.
-

 

[Taka]

I think what makes Calyrex especially difficult to deal with is just the variety of counterplay that each set has. A check to Nasty Plot sets can fold to a different Tera, or just a Choice Specs variant. Ting-Lu gets Spikes up like nothing else but it certainly does not check most Calyrex sets throughout a game.

Scarf and Nasty Plot sets in particular have different counterplay based on the coverage move/Tera you pick such as Grass Knot / Tera Blast / Draining Kiss, and Scarf can act as Nasty Plot regardless after you use Trick. Even the utility move that Calyrex picks can force different kinds of counterplay such as Encore / Substitute / Taunt.

Versatile Ubers are not rare at all, but Calyrex is generally too punishing to scout. Most teams adequately prepared for Calyrex are opened up to threats like Koraidon and Groundceus. Fat for the most part is mediocre if not bad because Calyrex either breaks through it with its utility movepool, just powers through with coverage, or forces an unviable ( Alolan Muk etc ). Without Tera at least, punishing Calyrex would be a lot more straightforward, but knowing that Calyrex can flip a switch anytime and break through its temporary check, while being far too fast to outspeed without a Scarfer.

While I don't think its necessarily unhealthy to have a Pokemon that can do everything, I think the tier is just already incredibly constrained trying to check everything that exists, and Calyrex is just kind of tipping the scale too far. It makes far too much progress far too easily. In the cases that it finds a team that it can't progress past, its teammates will most likely have no difficulty taking over.

Overall, I don't think Nasty Plot / Choice Scarf / Choice Specs are too difficult to play around individually, but having to deal with all three with a cohesive team while also factoring in Calyrex's teammates, Tera, and vast movepool makes it a bit too difficult to deal with in the builder and even in practice. As such, I will most likely be voting ban.

Team used for reqs: https://pokepast.es/68c750fb3dea2864

 

[CoralReaper707]

BAN
I Hate this thing so much. Fuck Clayrex-Shadow for ruining gen 8 Ubers for me. Seeing this thing leave would be the most satisfying ban I have ever seen. Side note: even if Ho-Oh, Yveltal, or the like ever return to the game, do not unban Calyrex-Shadow.
TL;DR: Get this thing out of my face.

 

[QuimArtolas12]

I think what makes Calyrex especially difficult to deal with is just the variety of counterplay that each set has. A check to Nasty Plot sets can fold to a different Tera, or just a Choice Specs variant.

This. Having to deal solely with Caly's list of viable sets is already complicated enough. But then you have terastalization which can make a wall you had for one or two of caly's sets completely irrelevant. I don't know if there are many pokémon that are able to reliable handle all of the horse's tools and still do stuff against Caly's teammates. If a pokémon restricts teambuilding that badly, i think we all know that it has to go.

 

[OreoSpeedruns]

Team used for reqs: https://pokepast.es/68c750fb3dea2864

slime takeover when?

Nearing the end of my reqs run-through and I want to share my opinion on Caly. Even before Home dropped I speculated Caly would be busted. Now, with Home’s release, I can say with utmost certainty that, in practice, I was 100% right about Caly’s brokenness. Not only is it still the fastest unboosted relevant mon around, it also still carries possibly the most spammable attack of all time, while destroying the few relevant Darks and Extreme Killer with Tera Fighting Blast. Plus, its previous best checks, Yveltal and Ho-Oh, no longer exist. This makes it way too easy for Caly to come in and wreak havoc. For me, this was enough for Caly to be broken, but what pushed Caly from just broken to REALLY broken was put best in Taka’s conclusion. Its three sets (Nasty Plot and Choice Specs/Scarf) aren’t completely unreasonable to handle on their own, but factoring in Caly’s team and Tera make it impossible to consistently handle in the teambuilder and in battle. This one’s gonna get a ban vote from me.

 

[nimzowitsch]

I got reqs yesterday, and I don't want to beat this dead horse any longer. Many others have already stated the obvious: this horse needs to go. We barely managed to keep Caly-S in check last gen, when we had Yveltal and didn't have Tera. Now we don't have Yveltal, and with Tera, the Choice Specs set alone has no counters while retaining a stellar speed tier. Scarf doesn't have the insane power of Specs but is still a stellar late game cleaner. I've seen people run Scarf Flutter Mane with Koraidon support (a 2.25x speed boost on a base 135 speed mon) to revenge kill Scarf Calyrex-S. The tried and true Sash and SubSeed sets have also started popping up. Let's cut to the chase. We should have finished what we started in gen 8.

 

[Wapf]

Let's take a broken overcentralizing mon that at least had a somewhat exploitable typing, remove all of its counters, let it change its typing to beat every new "counter" that does exist, and call it a day. Screw this mon lol.

 

[bdt2002]

By this point I think we can all agree that Calyrex-Shadow needs to go, or is at least a problematic aspect of this metagame. That being said, I do still find myself curious about two things:

1. Is Calyrex-Shadow actually worthy of the Anything Goes nomination, or is this a case of “This Pokémon is just OP in this current metagame”? (In other words, is this thing worth being talked about in the same category alongside Mega Ray and pre-nerf Zacian?)

2. What Pokémon and strategies may result from this unique suspect test? I won’t be pushing for reqs myself, but one of the things I like to observe with any suspect test is if the end result was better or worse because someone accidentally banned something healthy.

(This wasn’t part of the original post, but do you think we may end up seeing vanilla Spectrier be tested too like how Zacian-Hero was only banned last Gen after Crowned was?)

 

[Cepha]

(This wasn’t part of the original post, but do you think we may end up seeing vanilla Spectrier be tested too like how Zacian-Hero was only banned last Gen after Crowned was?)

I'm looking forward to trying out Spectrier on webs after what seems to be an inevitable ban for Caly-S, but shadow ball is considerably weaker than astral barrage, it doesn't have access to useful coverage in grass knot and so is more reliant on offensive tera, and it has a considerably worse speed tier. Base 130 is still great, but this is in a meta where Zacian-C, Miraidon, and Koraidon are all close to the top of the VR - or at least I think they ought to be considered as such; on the other hand, Caly-S has an unrivaled base 150.

 

[clare]

1. Is Calyrex-Shadow actually worthy of the Anything Goes nomination, or is this a case of “This Pokémon is just OP in this current metagame”? (In other words, is this thing worth being talked about in the same category alongside Mega Ray and pre-nerf Zacian?)

I think it is. The things only counters are bad (Alolan Muk is not exactly the pinnacle of viability here!) so following the same vein as Megaray and Zacian (banned after it got Close Combat since Assurance + CC KOes NDM if Rocks are up) it should go.

 

[Shay's Fate]

Calyrex Shadow is more than worthy of the AG rank, it shares a dynamic with both Zacian and Mega Rayquaza, where sure, they had (limited) answers such as Necrozma Dusk Mane and Arceus-Dragon, but these answers had trouble against some sets like Assurance or Draco Meteor.

Here you have an example with Calyrex

HDB sets ignore hazards, which Calyrex doesn't like, Choice Scarf outspeeds the entire metagame (Unless you use Koraidon + Scarf Flutter Mane, who doesn't like switching in) Choice Specs destroys Normalceus, Nasty Plot does absurd ammounts of damage and when combined with Draining Kiss make it an incredible swepper. And we could say something about each set.

If Calyrex had only one set or two it would probably be managable, but the sheer ammount of sets, the ability to change type (Which can snowball a game really fast because of As One) the insane stats, movepool that allows it to blow its few checks and spammable ghost STAB make it unhealthy and thus should be banned.

 

[NoobHereWaddup]

It's pretty clear that calyrex-s has multiple viable sets which leads to it being very difficult to answer but i want to emphasize how punishing it is to make a wrong guess on what an opposing calyrex-s is running.

Focus sash and choice scarf are the most popular from my experience but there's no denying that it can run multiple others like choice specs, life orb and even leftovers for leech seed sets.

So the opposing calyrex-s takes a ko against a naturally slower pokemon, how do you answer it? do you send out a choice scarf user, who gets threatened by choice scarf calyrex? or do you send out ekiller arceus, expecting choiced calyrex-s but instead getting 2hko'd by psychic from any other variant of calyrex-s? Guess wrong and you most likely another pokemon.

This doesn't even take tera into consideration, which further adds a level on unpredictability on calyrex-s thanks to the fact that, just like the amount of sets you can run, theres also multiple viable tera types for calyrex-s. If you have an arceus at +2 vs a calyrex-s, do you shadow claw, or do you extreme speed expecting them to tera? You can live a hit from fairy tera blast, but not fighting. Again, guess wrong and you probably lost a pokemon

These scenarios mainly apply to offense/hyper offense teams who have to quickly dispose of calyrex-s before it snowballs, more balanced teams will probably use ting-lu to check calyrex-s but even that can get worn down considerably quickly, especially with tera.

so tldr: calyrex-s has so many viable sets that it's easy to make a wrong guess and get punished for it, extremely easy to get massive value from calyrex-s.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Due to the number of sets Calyrex-S has, it's very good at adapting to meta trends. If the meta is favoring a certain playstyle to handle Calyrex, the horse can simply use a different set to mess with their prediction.

 

[Aberforth]

To the surprise of... well, not many, Calyrex-S has been officially banned from SV Ubers. It took 6 hours 18 minutes.