No, the Pokemon would just be banned, like the same way w/ what happened w/ various Z-Moves abusers in Gen 7 and various weather Abusers in Gen 5.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 1 - Oops!...I Did It Again
- Thread starter Finchinator
- Start date
- Status
I am not yet confident enough in my experience to say whether Tera deserves a ban/restriction or not, but I would like to speak out strongly against a specific restriction.
"Reveal Tera type at team preview (Any Pokemon can Terastallize, but the type they would do so into is disclosed at team preview prior to a battle)"
This is the only limitation that directly opposes the actual in-game battles. Pokémon Showdown is ultimately a simulator, and I would very much like to stay true to the games themselves. An outright ban would, of course, still be keeping within the confines of the game. 1 Tera user per team (the first member) is similarly a viable restriction. It is a rule, but it stays consistent with the real game. The same logic goes for same type STAB Tera. Imagine playing in-game with the restriction above, however. What would you do? Send your opponent a discord/PS message and tell them your Tera types? We've never had a restriction such as this that demands action be taken outside of playing the game itself. I believe the precedent of staying true to the games is important, and whatever is decided, I recommend that nobody support this specific solution.
"Reveal Tera type at team preview (Any Pokemon can Terastallize, but the type they would do so into is disclosed at team preview prior to a battle)"
This is the only limitation that directly opposes the actual in-game battles. Pokémon Showdown is ultimately a simulator, and I would very much like to stay true to the games themselves. An outright ban would, of course, still be keeping within the confines of the game. 1 Tera user per team (the first member) is similarly a viable restriction. It is a rule, but it stays consistent with the real game. The same logic goes for same type STAB Tera. Imagine playing in-game with the restriction above, however. What would you do? Send your opponent a discord/PS message and tell them your Tera types? We've never had a restriction such as this that demands action be taken outside of playing the game itself. I believe the precedent of staying true to the games is important, and whatever is decided, I recommend that nobody support this specific solution.
I think that Terastallization should be banned from the game.
Say that you have a Chi-Yu out against a Amoonguss do you go Dark Pulse or Fire Blast, If you go Dark Pulse and the Amoonguss terastilizes into a Fairy type then you just wasted a turn. If you go Fire Blast and Amoonguss goes to a Water or Fire type than you just wasted a turn.
Either way it's a lose lose situation.
Say that you have a Chi-Yu out against a Amoonguss do you go Dark Pulse or Fire Blast, If you go Dark Pulse and the Amoonguss terastilizes into a Fairy type then you just wasted a turn. If you go Fire Blast and Amoonguss goes to a Water or Fire type than you just wasted a turn.
Either way it's a lose lose situation.
For my perspective of vision, tera turns OU into a coin flip game, due to the wide variety of types that a poke could run. At first glance, tera just as the defensive option looks good, but when we enter Pokémon like Annihilape or Espathra this equilibrium is broken completely, this poke getting access to a better type give them an easy time to set up, also given the variety of types that those pokes could run a poke that check a type couldn't deal with other type, like Gholdengo can handle tera fairy/fighting Espathra but some Espathra starts to run tera dark/fire which completely destroys Gholdengo. Tera as double STAB can be even more problematic, some Pokémon like Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao, Baxcalibur and Dragapult have few or no switch ins.
For this reason I think that a Tiering action is necessary for a healty competitive environment and the best options to that is in the following sequence: Outright ban> Reveal Tera type at team preview> 1 Tera user per team> Only STAB Tera types allowed.
For this reason I think that a Tiering action is necessary for a healty competitive environment and the best options to that is in the following sequence: Outright ban> Reveal Tera type at team preview> 1 Tera user per team> Only STAB Tera types allowed.
Sir have you ever heard of sleep clause mod? We've quite literally modded the game for the longest time now. PS would just mod to show the Tera types at team preview, as a way to not require honesty or even communication between battlers. It's no different than a gentleman's agreement to not bring Ubers, or to not bring Moody, or not bring OHKO moves.
The sleep clause mod is almost entirely easily implemented into playing a game. The only instance where it becomes an actual cartridge violation is in the case of something like effect spore activating when a pokemon is already asleep, or other similar situations. The bans you're bringing up require no communication if the game were to be played on the switch. The tera type showing is something else entirely. It's a drastic change, comparable to altering PS to include team preview in gen 4. The degree to which this is changing the actual game is different than any in the past.
Except Spore fundamentally does nothing if you use on a pokemon when there's already one asleep, allowing you spam Spore on Pokemon that only might have Natural Cure, spam Spore predicting them to wake up and not switch out etc. All of those instances would break Sleep Clause on cart and are not even rare.
My brother in Arceus, why is tran changing it's typing? it's one of the best defensive typings around, and plus, chomp is defensive, and it you see offensive, probably has smth to smack flying types and dnite will just go e-killer all over your shit, since flying doesn't resist e-speed. And you can't just take gen 8 mons and put them in gen 9 when they aren't coming in. Kingambit, it' hard to deal with, but that's more due to it's insane power if it's the last one standing ( if i'm right, it gets 105 bp sucker punchs with 127.5 kowtow cleaves and 120 iron heads) like, this thing dealt 59 to iron hands once, though that was with black glasses. But that wasn't even boosted with sd. Moon is overrated imo, never had trouble with it, ye, i agree with you on magerna, since genesect was one of the best mons in gen 5 ubers juding from the vr, and last gen it was trash. But still, there is a chance of it getting banned.
I'm not going to argue technicalities. If you don't see how it's different, it's not worth trying to explain. I didn't like the idea, and I put out my take on why. If my opinion is not shared by many in the community, and they choose that restriction, so be it. I just figured I'd put my take out there.
Moon is pretty much the same as chien is , if you don't stack up dark resist with the like of tauros+valiant it pretty much break your whole team appart but I agree the tera flying acrobatic set is a disappointment , cb got eq for tauros fire which is everywhere in the topladder cuz chien is dumb , iron head for fairy skeliredge and ho grim , momentum with uturn some even run brickbreak for gambit plus smash ho grim screen sure it need a defense drop or some hazard to 2hko dondozo but it's not like dengo hazard stack it the current meta also moon can switch once into chiyu .
About tran topic gaining the possibility to change typing with tera literally turn the mon into something that singlehandedly destroys fat , last gen people ran stuff like dnite chomp gastro and slowking to deal with trapping tran , with tera addition "typical" answer aren't anymore just change typing accordingly with what you want to lure out , if tran with the coverage of your choice plus any typing to bait stuff out doesn't scare you off I dont know what does .
VGC is using team sheets that reveal Terra. A cart side restriction like this is extremely possible, its called a gentleman's agreement and that is already what basically all of Smogon singles is already. This is the worst argument against Terra Team Preview and people need to stop saying it please! The council wouldn't put it on the list if it was a direct mod.
Its less of a gentlemens agreement and more of a requirement by official VGC tournament staff.
You travel to the tournament in-person to provide the information, you aren't doing that for casual matches. For casuals there's language barriers, different regional regulation limits, and in general if you're random queueing on cart you go from a wild card smogon OU game to never being able to play an OU game because you can't comms with the random.
VGC team sheets should be used on the VGC ladder, not singles. I wouldn't even include team sheets in battle stadium doubles because again VGC and online battle stadium are two different things.
Last edited:
I don’t usually post in these but it’s an important tiering decision and I’d like to speak on it.
I think that tiering action must take place if we want the game to remain competitive. The tera mechanic offers too much at once with no drawback and stifles certainty / planning to a harmful degree.
Regardless of traditional workings of how we check pokemon and expect 1v1 matchups to go, the current mechanics allow an excessive amount of variance. It’s not as simple as revenge killing or out-pressuring a threat - it’s simply guessing the turn and type tera will be used.
The least we can do is lessen the amount of variables at play. Preview nerf lessens the type question, while leaving which mon / the timing in question. 1 per team lessens the mon question, but leaves the typing / timing still. These are steps in the right direction 100% even if a full ban isn’t desired asap.
I understand the appeal to keep the new toy around and that’s why I sympathize with the nerf options, while considering them myself. I’ll probably vote ban first but I’m not fully decided. I just don’t think we need this degree of randomness to have fun. There are plenty of new mons, mechanics, and strategies to keep the game exciting. We shouldn’t let the tier devolve into chaos out of fear.
I’m really hoping something is done and we don’t let tera remain unrestricted. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and feel free to quote me if you want to discuss something.
Cheers
I think that tiering action must take place if we want the game to remain competitive. The tera mechanic offers too much at once with no drawback and stifles certainty / planning to a harmful degree.
Regardless of traditional workings of how we check pokemon and expect 1v1 matchups to go, the current mechanics allow an excessive amount of variance. It’s not as simple as revenge killing or out-pressuring a threat - it’s simply guessing the turn and type tera will be used.
The least we can do is lessen the amount of variables at play. Preview nerf lessens the type question, while leaving which mon / the timing in question. 1 per team lessens the mon question, but leaves the typing / timing still. These are steps in the right direction 100% even if a full ban isn’t desired asap.
I understand the appeal to keep the new toy around and that’s why I sympathize with the nerf options, while considering them myself. I’ll probably vote ban first but I’m not fully decided. I just don’t think we need this degree of randomness to have fun. There are plenty of new mons, mechanics, and strategies to keep the game exciting. We shouldn’t let the tier devolve into chaos out of fear.
I’m really hoping something is done and we don’t let tera remain unrestricted. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and feel free to quote me if you want to discuss something.
Cheers
I'm gonna give a go at this given this is the solution I support the most for the sake of balanced, and I had a nearly identical concern in the original Terastallization discussion thread.
I agree that PS! should stay as close the the cartridge games as possible, but there are current exceptions implemented. Sleep Clause is a biggie that was already mentioned, but Pokemon's health being displayed as percentages is another notable deviation, alongside the display of PP and moves used by the opponent. IRL, you can theoretically list out your team's tera type at team preview if you're about to do smogon tiered-battle, something we obviously all choose to subscribe to. Given the examples I laid out, I don't see it as anymore unreasonable to display tera types and otherwise save the hassle of writing out a list should that be the chosen course of action.
...
Aside from that response, if it isn't obvious enough already, I'm most supportive of showing the teams' tera-types. I think it eliminates a lot of ambiguity and the surprise factor that's pissed off a lot of people about the new mechanic while preserving this generation's big feature. It benefits the players in a similar vein as team preview was introduced from Gen 4 going into Gen 5. You can plan prior to a match a lot better and better know how to counter what. That won't take away from the fact that new strategies will come up with Pokemon eventually adapting to use different tera types, but as the metagame evolves, so will answers. That's a pretty natural phenomenon that isn't new in Smogon's competitive history whatsoever, despite having an oftentimes trigger-happy playerbase. You can make the argument about timing predictability being an issue still, but I see that as strikingly similar to Gen 7's Z moves. You can often tell when the user is about to use them and plan accordingly, and there were some pretty unexpected combinations that arose as the metagame shifted.
At the same time, I'm very against an outright ban. Say what you will about Smogon not being "about fun" and instead striving for competitive balance, but enjoyment is an implicit factor whether we'd like to admit it or not. We wouldn't be playing on a simulator for reasons outside of some small cash tournaments if it wasn't about fun in some capacity. Gen 8, for how balanced as it was, did get a bit stale. Dynamax was 100% pretty hard to counter and very unpredictable, but banning it did take away a dynamic part of that metagame (as much as I agree with it's outright banning). I do not think Terastallization is quite to that level, and I think there are ways to take advantage of it in a balanced metagame. Knowing how to game plan for possible tera-suspects in a given match would be a pretty big way.
Terastallization is such a fun, creative concept! I'd love to try to keep Gen 8's identity in the OU metagame, and I believe team preview of tera-types is that answer to keep it balanced.
Never seen any smogon ou on cartridge on random queing in all my life. I don't know the comm function in S/S or S/V but in USUM you couldn't just say to someone stranger "hey let's play smogon" and battle. Plus, as far as I remember, the only option was the battle spot, wich uses a completely different format for singles (3v3).
It looks to me that "you can't show tera types in cartridge" is a try to find a false reason to outright ban terastalizing instead of restricting it.
I do agree that Terastallization is broken and should recieve some kind of nerf or ban, however I do not think it deserves an outright ban. I think there should be 1 tera Pokémon per team, with the lead Pokémon being the only Pokémon you can Terastallize, or you could reveal tera types at the start of battle.
*Deep breath* Here goes nothing Hi OU, I've been playing pokemon and using Showdown! for a few years now, but this will be the first suspect test that I've participated in. I firmly believe that we shouldn't touch Terastallization, at least for the time being. We should let the meta develop for a bit, and we definitely need to ban a few mons (like Chi-Yu for starters) in the meantime, but I think we should hold off on Tera.
As much as Smogon tells people they are about balance, Showdown! is the most accessible way to play pokemon against other people. There are many, many casual fans who use it purely for the sake of enjoyment. You can't just tell them that if they don't like the bans to go play somewhere else, because there really is nowhere else to play. On PS! you can log in, build a team in 5 minutes, and hop on the ladder to play immediately. Nowhere else is 6v6 so accessible. I think that the opinions of the elite are important, but the best players will continue to play pretty much no matter what we do. The experience of regular fans should also mean something, and if we can make a (mostly) competitive game while keeping it as close to in-game as possible, then we should. (I say "mostly" because hydro pump is my mortal enemy. It says 80%, but I don't believe it for a second!). I believe that we shouldn't mess with such an integral part of the game unless it proves absolutely necessary to preserve balance, and in my opinion, it hasn't yet.
I acknowledge that the game entirely revolves around Terastallization now, but that's not necessarily bad. SV isn't just gen 8 but with Ting-Lu and Gholdengo, nor should we reduce it to such. It should be its own entity. I see Tera as closer to gen 5 weather than to z-moves; it completely warps the meta around itself, but people found ways to play with it. It took a bunch of bans before the meta was playable, (some would argue it needed even more), but it was balanced. Not all games in gen 5 were fought with weather, but the vast majority were, and the game was fine either way.
I think that people are falsely representing Tera as an automatic win-button if a player makes one good move with it. In some cases, it is, obviously, but at that point is it really Tera's fault or the player's? Any solution short of an outright ban will keep at least some "50/50s," but the complexity that Tera adds beside those select scenarios is positive and healthy for the metagame. Deciding when and which pokemon to Terastallize should be the thing that decides many games in gen 9. It isn't brainless, it takes skill to do so intelligently and effectively. It adds another layer in the teambuilder and in-battle. However, not all games have to be decided by Tera, as one player could just maneuver around an opponet's Terastallized 'mon and win without ever needing to use their own. Of course some games will come down to "who can get their big Tera threat in first and win?" But that's how offensive games go anyways, and positioning your pokemon to sweep takes skill too.
Here's my rankings and thoughts on each proposed solution:
As much as Smogon tells people they are about balance, Showdown! is the most accessible way to play pokemon against other people. There are many, many casual fans who use it purely for the sake of enjoyment. You can't just tell them that if they don't like the bans to go play somewhere else, because there really is nowhere else to play. On PS! you can log in, build a team in 5 minutes, and hop on the ladder to play immediately. Nowhere else is 6v6 so accessible. I think that the opinions of the elite are important, but the best players will continue to play pretty much no matter what we do. The experience of regular fans should also mean something, and if we can make a (mostly) competitive game while keeping it as close to in-game as possible, then we should. (I say "mostly" because hydro pump is my mortal enemy. It says 80%, but I don't believe it for a second!). I believe that we shouldn't mess with such an integral part of the game unless it proves absolutely necessary to preserve balance, and in my opinion, it hasn't yet.
I acknowledge that the game entirely revolves around Terastallization now, but that's not necessarily bad. SV isn't just gen 8 but with Ting-Lu and Gholdengo, nor should we reduce it to such. It should be its own entity. I see Tera as closer to gen 5 weather than to z-moves; it completely warps the meta around itself, but people found ways to play with it. It took a bunch of bans before the meta was playable, (some would argue it needed even more), but it was balanced. Not all games in gen 5 were fought with weather, but the vast majority were, and the game was fine either way.
I think that people are falsely representing Tera as an automatic win-button if a player makes one good move with it. In some cases, it is, obviously, but at that point is it really Tera's fault or the player's? Any solution short of an outright ban will keep at least some "50/50s," but the complexity that Tera adds beside those select scenarios is positive and healthy for the metagame. Deciding when and which pokemon to Terastallize should be the thing that decides many games in gen 9. It isn't brainless, it takes skill to do so intelligently and effectively. It adds another layer in the teambuilder and in-battle. However, not all games have to be decided by Tera, as one player could just maneuver around an opponet's Terastallized 'mon and win without ever needing to use their own. Of course some games will come down to "who can get their big Tera threat in first and win?" But that's how offensive games go anyways, and positioning your pokemon to sweep takes skill too.
Here's my rankings and thoughts on each proposed solution:
- Reveal Tera types on team preview:
- Team preview doen't show me my opponent's sets, items, abilities, or ev's, which drastically change which of my 'mons beats each of theirs. This is revealed throughout the battle, and sometimes, by the time I have a crucial piece of information, it's too late and I lose anyway. Why should terastallization be any different? I will say, this is an interesting idea, like an agreement that you'll simply share your info with your opponent before the game. This is by far the best option in my opinion. Who knows, maybe this will be the thing that keeps Tera from being broken, but I still think we need to wait and see.
- Restrict Tera types to STAB types:
- I think it's too restrictive. It limits Tera to making offensive 'mons stronger and excludes the cool (and skillful) defensive applications. This one reduces Tera to essentially weaker z-moves, but any 'mon can use it.
- Only 1st pokemon can Tera:
- Reduces the amount of possibilities to 18, but in practice it's like 2-4 viable types. Still a lot of uncertainty, but it loses the spirit of Terastallization and what makes it so unique - the fact that any pokmon can do it.
- Outright ban:
- This will just make the game unfun just like gen 8 and I'll probably never play OU, but that's just me. If y'all are monsters enough to choose this then I'll stick to gens 4-7 and natdex.
I don't really understand how showing tera types will change much if anything. At this point I just assume that if the opponent hasn't tera'd, my SE move has a 50% chance of not being effective on their sweeper and that won't change much if all that happens is tera preview.
Tera preview in doubles makes sense because you can still gang up on it or target the other pokemon, makes it far less impact full. In singles it just forces so many uncompetitive scenarios and will lead to the ban of what? Like 4+ mons if all that happens is it stays as is with preview?
Tera preview in doubles makes sense because you can still gang up on it or target the other pokemon, makes it far less impact full. In singles it just forces so many uncompetitive scenarios and will lead to the ban of what? Like 4+ mons if all that happens is it stays as is with preview?
Natdex is far more likely to ban tera than OU (they only have option for an outright ban or allow it without restrictions). You might want to consider the possibility of quitting 6v6 competitive singles if tera is that important to you.
As for unfun, a lot of people said banning Dynanax would make the Gen 8 meta unfun, but Gen 8 OU post home was one of the best we have had in years.
You seem really nice!
However, it's actually the opposite.
Smogon, as a community, works really hard to make this game playable in a competitive sense.
The tier councils and expert players put in a lot of time.
So what I mean by the opposite is that, really, the casual players will play no matter what- the competitive players won't, and if they won't, then the casual players wouldn't have anything at all.
If we unbanned evasion and sleep clause from official formats, then expert players wouldn't play the game, even if casual players think its "fun".
If expert players don't play, for good reason I might add, then eventually the community would fall apart.
Because that's what keeps Showdown alive, the very dedicated players.
It's a harsh reality, but the answer is, that if a casual player has a problem with how Smogon decides to balance the game, then the answer is: too bad.
"Cope" essentially lol.
The experience of regular fans does mean something, that's why Showdown has all sorts of formats such as Anything Goes, and Random Battle.
But the community of dedicated players want the most competitive, the most balanced game possible.
Casual players should respect this, because they benefit from a lot of unseen hard work.
Have we considered a combination of restrictions?
Something like a max of 2-3 Tera mon per team, and all of them being visible? I feel like that will address a lot of the issues people have, while still allowing for variance and fun with the new mechanic.
Or are people opposed to that because it'd feel too "fan-meta-y" instead of a simulator?
Something like a max of 2-3 Tera mon per team, and all of them being visible? I feel like that will address a lot of the issues people have, while still allowing for variance and fun with the new mechanic.
Or are people opposed to that because it'd feel too "fan-meta-y" instead of a simulator?
I don't think we should ban or restrict tera. Honestly from the games I have played in the tiers it is allowed in I really just think the sole reason people think its overpowered is that it has a surprise factor. Honestly you should just learn that you might need to be prepare for this possibility. Tera makes the game exciting and doesn't really negatively effect the meta in my opinion.
Ah yes, I should be surprised my blissey gets 2 shot by the fish. I should be surprised that their sweeper can change its type and I guess wrong on a true 50 50 and lose the entire game due to its unmatched coverage now.
Tera is 100% a problem on fast strong mons. It's caused the entire meta to devolve into degenerate HO that's built on immediate true 50 50 scenarios that can lose you the game as early as turn 1.
Team preview solves literally nothing against what's the problem right now.
day 1000 btw stop recommending the dual ladders people because the tier leadership has actively said several times it aint gonna happen. split playerbase just makes tiering a pain in the ass, if terra gets banned there will inevitable be a TerraU OM and if there isn't you can go propose it
Edit: ALSO DAY ONE THOUSAND THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO SUGGEST NEW THINGS TO DO WITH TERRA. THERE ARE LIKE FOUR CHOICES AND WE SHOULD TALK ABOUT THOSE FOUR CHOICES rather than namenumbers #500 coming in to suggest something that recieved about 12 pages of heated
Personally, I want to try the Team Preview solution and then see how the meta feels from there, but it's not the end of the world if it's banned. Terra is kinda broken as fuck and knowing what Terra types are normal does not actually help that much in stopping, say, Terra Fighting Chi Yu.
- Status