Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 1 - Oops!...I Did It Again

[theoof11]

Thanks to tera chien,chiyu,dnite,moon,kingambit,dpult,ape,garganacl,turbo bird are outright broken , once dlc/home are released you can easily add stuff like mage,tran,kart,lele,melme,urshifu,zygarde,eleki,ultra beast,dracovish and more, even some stuff like arctozolt/dracozolt could turn broken with adaptability boltbeak or terra fire/ice after banning that package people will abuse the next best thing to end up with half the offensive pokemon pool banned ....

Honestly I don't even know how people defend the tera mechanic with any viable argument outside "its fun" "gen8 bis sneezefest" shit is broken,add rng on an already heavily rng gameplay pokemon is based on,throw game plan and teambuilding out of the window , force 50/50 situations/turn some endgame into guessing ones .

Hi, so, i'm not a good player, never even broke 1600 in last gen's ou (but that's cuz I was using golurk as a f for its dexit at the end of the gen(don't ask)), but I have a small problem with some of those. dracovish is stupid, and always will be stupid, even without tera, so not sure why that was brought up, actrozolt might get banned anyways without tera due to hail changing to snowscape ( idk, I can't predict the future), urshifu single was banned without sd, it's getting banned now methinks (again, idk for sure, but I think), urshifu rapid might also get banned, i think that turbo bird is getting banned without tera anyways, since it's "run dark type not weak to dgleam or lose"(also shed tail being broken), chien and chi-yu are getting banned with or without tera, dnite, i'd say it's shed tail+screens that's the problem, giving it a free dd, idt the ultra beasts are coming in home, though I could be wrong, eleki is gonna be broken with tera, I agree, but if a specific mon is broken with a mechanic, ban the mon, why is heatran changing it's typing again? fire-steel is amazing, and I have to go now, but I will continue when I get back on! ALso, if anyone wants to know, im trying to get reqs, in favor of tera type revealed at preview, then, one tear user only, then ban, then stab only
EDIT:sorry for the wall of text

 

[Finchinator]

Some users approached me saying that they found it hard to keep up with all of the possibilities Terastallization presents. I do not think information imbalance should play a huge factor here. It may be best for these people to try to normalize Terastallization, so I figured it may be best to make a (very rough!!!) list of commonly seen Tera types.

This list includes everything B rank and higher on the VR. Obviously it is not all encompassing as there are countless options and maybe some you like I missed or some you dislike I included, but information can help. This should go without saying, but this is an informal list that I volunteered to make as a resource when juggling dozens of other things, so if your first instinct is to be critical of something included or missing, then perhaps just move on to the next post. I have far surpassed my quota for tolerating rudeness this week.

This is not meant to change the direction of the thread so much as just to be a resource for people to look at. I will also be editing it into one of the posts under the OP here so you do not have to keep going back to this if you are using it. Please continue discussing as you were.

Tera Type Index: SV OU

Amoonguss Water, Fire, Fairy
Annihilape Water, Fire, Fairy, Normal, Dark
Azumarill Water
Baxcalibur Fairy, Ice, Dragon
Blissey Fairy, Ghost
Breloom Fighting, Grass, Fire
Chi-Yu Fire, Ghost, Grass, Fairy, Flying
Chien-Pao Ice, Ghost, Fighting, Dark
Clodsire Water, Dark, Steel
Corviknight Ground, Dark, Dragon, Water, Flying
Cyclizar Ghost, Steel
Dondozo Fairy, Grass, Steel, Dark
Dragapult Ghost, Dark
Dragonite Normal, Steel, Fire
Espathra Fairy, Fighting
Garchomp Steel, Ghost, Water
Garganacl Water, Flying, Grass, Fairy, Ghost, Steel
Gholdengo Ghost, Steel, Fighting, Normal, Dark, Flying
Glimmora Ghost, Steel, Grass, Fairy, Flying
Great Tusk Ground, Fighting, Steel, Water, Flying
Grimmsnarl Ghost, Poison, Steel
Hatterene: Water, Flying, Steel
Iron Hands Electric, Fighting, Flying
Iron Moth Poison, Fire, Fairy, Grass, Flying
Iron Treads Ghost, Ground, Flying
Iron Valiant Electric, Ghost, Fairy, Fighting, Poison, Dark
Kingambit Dark, Flying, Ghost, Steel
Meowscarada Grass, Fairy, Dark
Quaquaval Water, Fighting
Roaring Moon Steel, Dark, Flying
Rotom-Wash Steel, Water, Ghost
Scizor Steel, Fire, Electric, Flying
Skeledirge Fairy, Dark, Fire
Slowking Water
Ting-Lu Poison, Steel, Water, Ground, Fairy
Torkoal Ghost, Flying, Fire, Steel
Toxapex Water, Fairy, Grass, Steel, Dark
Tyranitar Steel, Ghost
Volcarona Grass, Psychic, Bug

 

[Vall]

Thanks to tera chien,chiyu,dnite,moon,kingambit,dpult,ape,garganacl,turbo bird are outright broken , once dlc/home are released you can easily add stuff like mage,tran,kart,lele,melme,urshifu,zygarde,eleki,ultra beast,dracovish and more, even some stuff like arctozolt/dracozolt could turn broken with adaptability boltbeak or terra fire/ice after banning that package people will abuse the next best thing to end up with half the offensive pokemon pool banned ....

Chien Pao & Chi Yu are broken regardless of tera

Kingambit & Garganacl aren't broken to begin with and Moon isn't broken IMO

Dnite, Pult, Ape, Espathra are the ones already listed.

Magearna's ubers regardless, doubt tran is bokren, not coming back, not coming back, not coming back, ubers regardless, not coming back, already listed, not coming back, not coming back.

You haven't listed a confirmed returning pokemon that wasn't already one of the 6 mentioned, and we can't ban tera based on "What if this pokemon comes back." IF all the speculated mons return and IF they turn out to be broken, we can reconsider tera later.

 

[jeansam]

I'm team don't ban tera.

I think if we are to ban something we should instead ban mons that become OP with a specific tera type.
The same way we did with Mega-Evolution, some megas got banned, but others didn't.

 

[Moutemoute]

Alright so I'll already gave my thoughts on Terastallization here, here and there and let's be honest, nothing has changed in my mind. I still think Terastallization is bad as a mechanic (doesn't matter the tier tbh). However, I also think some options suggested are interesting and I'm fine with some of them should they be the final options we got in the end.

I still think my first vote would be toward an "Outright ban". It's the most easy decision to make and I firmly believe we treated the whole Terastallization issue while taking into account some things we shouldn't ever have think about while thinking about how handling a mechanic (mostly the "fun aspect" and the fact that banning Terastallization could impact how Smogon attracts new players). In my opinion, Terastallization is an issue and thus should be banned. I personally don't like the idea to complicate the whole process (i'm in the either ban / no ban train). It's a personnal feeling obviously.

As I said above, I do have to admit that some of the proposals are appealing, especially the "1 Tera user per team". I like the idea and I think this should be way more managable since this would remove the thing I hate the most about Terastallization which is the randomness of the mechanic. You never know when it's going to happened but you also have no clue in which types the Pokémon will change (see above Finchinator which shows that there is some OU threats with numerous viable Tera types). And last but not least, you obviously don't know which Pokémon will Tera. The idea to allow only the first Pokémon of your team to be able to Tera is in my opinion appealing as it limits in the best way (imo) how the mechanic's randomness works. I think this would nerf the mechanic in a good way.

On the other hand, I don't like a lot the idea to "Reveal Tera type at team preview ". I still think this wouldn't impact enough how games are working. You'll still don't know which one of the 6 Pokémon of your opponent will Tera so even if you know in what types they'll change, there still 6 options on 6 different threats which could occur.. pretty meh imo. Last but not least, the "worst" option imo (if we're not taking into account the "no ban" which is a pure kekw move imo) : only STAB Tera types allowed. This is stricly bad because they're is too much Pokémon which would appreciate the fact to be able to enjoy a free Adaptability boost (Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, Dragapult, Garchomp, Roaring Moon etc..) so this option would probably leading to the ban of a lot of Pokémon which are "too good" in a metagame with only STAB Tera types allowed (since there would be no more defensive Tera types to check those threats).

 

[volcanionisgood]

Greetings Overused players. Many people have asked, "Vig as one of the top pokemon players of all time, famous for innovating clefairy and making olt, where do you stand on this matter?" Well, my dear friends, I must say that I am firmly on the do not ban side. Tera is not dynamax, this is absolutely jumping the gun on the matter before the meta has even truly settled. The reason I am so anti-ban right now, is because I am certain that if we vote do not ban this time, it will be inevitably reevaluated in a few months regardless, which is when this suspect should have taken place. Furthermore, if ban wins this vote you can bet that it will not be retested, so there are only 2 real options, do not ban or restrict. Restrict is a bit weird, and I would prefer pure tera rather than make OU a completely different game than pokemon.

Now as for the justification of no ban on tera, the question is not how much you like the mechanic, the question is will banning it improve the meta. As one of the most intelligent men to ever lead a scarf landorus, the answer is apparent to me and most likely to most of my similarly gifted compatriots. Take for example, how many flying types are there in OU currently? 2 dragonite and corviknight. With tera banned, dragonite shall vanish into the void known as UU and OU will be left with only the diligent corviknight to guard against the onslaught of OU's fearsome ground attackers (and Rotom-wash as well but it sucks). In conclusion, tera is an interesting mechanic that needs more time to be viewed and judged, and I implore you all to vote no ban

 

[Djuseppe]

First of all, hello! This is one of my first interactions in smogon forums. I never partecipated to a suspect before because i've never really cared about them, or didn't think i had the experience to have an unbiased opinion. Not that i am a top player now but at least I think I know something about the game.

My opinion of terastalizing: not really as broken as it seems. Sure it may have some difference and new styles of play and thinking how to play.

To me outright banning terastal means not wanting to adapt to a new metagame and prefering to stay in comfort zone. At least so early. We had the first usage stats only two weeks ago. I think it's too early to decide for such a drastic decision.

However i'm extremely in favor of taking action to rebalance it for single 6v6 battles.

The ban argument i've seen the most is that brings unpredactability. Not really, most used tera-types are quite obvious and already a staple. Skeldirge is always fairy, Annihilape is water or fire, Espathra (why is that thing UU?) is almost always fairy etc... Sure there may be some surprise tera that can be unpredictable, so my favorite action to resolve this is Show tera-type in team preview. As said before it's already a thing in official vgc ruling. It wil also help in predicting when the opponent could Terastalize (that i think is the most problematic thing as i've read).

Banning tera-blast is almost useless. Nobody uses that move unless you switch to a very weird type wich would give you that specific coverage move, and the weaknesses associated plus if you not terastalize, it's a wasted move slot. However it could give access to coverage that some pokemon should not have. However with showing the tera-type in team preview it can be easily scouted and lose any surprise element.

Limiting 1 tera-pokemon in builder combined with the preview completely removes the randomness, but also removes some in-battle strategy factor, rendering the terastalizing a wannabe Mega-evolution (I know we all miss them ). I'm ok with the decision but i will not vote in favor of it.

Banning STAB tera can be a solution to the extreme raw power. It will nerf the mechanic both when used offensively and in some case defensively (e.g. terastalizing a dual type pokemon into one of its own type to remove weaknesses associated with the double typing). I think this is one of the best ways to nerf it, if needed.

Banning non-STAB tera on the other hand completely removes the purpose and main use of the mechanics. If this decision is taken it will be equal to banning tera as a whole. Like the 1 tera pokemon limit, I won't support this decision.

So, in short, my preference for the restrictions are, in order:

Taking actions YES

1. Showing tera-type in team preview.
2. Banning STAB tera
3. Banning terablast
-- only if extremely necessary
4. Limit 1 tera-pokemon
-- last resort
5. Ban terastalizing

The best scenario would be applying the restrictions in order but i understand it could take too much time for testing.

Some counterarguments i made based on what i saw.

There are busted pokemon that abuse STAB Tera: The names of the busted pokemon are actually clear. We all know them. However, i think they're busted regardless of tera or not. They aren't that much in number and if we have banned Houndstone for 1 single move, i don't really see the problem in banning them for being broken with (and without) Tera.

Once Home comes there will be more abusers and we can't ban every pokemon: There is no Home or DLC right now. As of now we should only talk about the state of the actual metagame. I will be fine with a tera-ban post Home only if it's extremely necessary.

If you ban the abusers then ther will be other abusers: The abusers get banned if they are extremely broken and uncounterable. If chien-pao is too strong, then it not means that Weavile is equal in strenght, despite similar roles and typing. (weavile doesn't reduce the defence with just it's presence in the field as opposed as Chien-pao) and it's just an example.

 

[PokePoindexter]

I had a feeling as soon as Terastallization was first revealed that it was going to be one of the first things put on the chopping block. I don't know if I'll have the time to get my reqs, but at this point, this is how I'd vote:

5. No action
4. Ban non-STAB Tera Types
3. Reveal during team preview
2. 1 Tera user
1. Outright ban

I know a certain dead monkey, flaming fish, sword-toothed cat-weasel monstrosity, and some others who'd like a word with anyone who claims nothing needs to be done. And before you say "wElL jUsT bAn tHeM iNsTeAd!!1!": and then what? Ban another batch of abusers once they're gone? Yes, it is possible for a Pokemon to be unhealthy independent of Tera's legality (looking at you, Delibird from hell). But there comes a point where you have to draw the line and determine whether or not Tera is really worth preserving if you have to ban so many things just to make it anywhere close to healthy. Battle gimmicks are honestly the last things anyone should care about maintaining. A healthy metagame without Tera is far better than an unhealthy one with it.

Final thought: Terastallization, like Dynamax before it, is fun to mess around with in-game. I love gallivanting around Paldea with my Fighting-type Palafin and Ground-type Baxcalibur. And I think it's neat how the gym leaders use it to incorporate mons that wouldn't fit their standard types into their teams (even if some - like Iono and Ryme - do it better than others - like Katy and Grusha). But being fun in-game doesn't always translate to being healthy in competitive play. My issue with Terastallization in this meta isn't simply that it's unpredictable or that a few Pokemon are really strong with it - some degree of unpredictability is to be expected when doing online battles, and some Pokemon will always be able to put mechanics to better use than others can - moreso how easy it is to exploit said unpredictability to punish the average player, and how easy it is for nearly any Pokemon to abuse it. So I think there's a stronger argument to be made in favor of banning Terastallization than there is to keep it.

EDIT: VIG: I don't mean any disrespect, but I don't think that argument is really all that convincing. First off, Lando-T isn't even usable in the current meta. Second, once it comes back, so too will the other genies, Goltres, and both forms of Zapdos, providing 9 other likely-viable Ground immunities. Both Tornadus forms especially will be able to give Lando fits with their newfangled Bleakwind Storm. Not to mention it'll have to deal with Chien-Pao, or at the very least Weavile again if it gets banned, and other new faces have potential ways of dealing with it too (e.g. Great Tusk with Ice Spinner). Lando-T is still going to be a presence when it comes back, but not to the point where everyone is going to want to Terastallize into a Flying-type just for that.

 

[iiMann]

No Action. Tera can be an annoyance and can change the tide of a battle. A change in typing does not make an individual pokemon or team overly powered to where this mechanic would be broken.

• Reveal Tera type at team preview (Any Pokemon can Terastallize, but the type they would do so into is disclosed at team preview prior to a battle)
• 1 Tera user per team (Only the first member of your party will be allowed to Terastallize during the course of the battle)
• Only STAB Tera types allowed (Any Pokemon can Terastallize, but they may only do so to types that match their initial STAB typings)
• Outright ban (Terastallization will no longer be usable in SV OU)

 

[Vall]

I don't understand where the "New wave of abusers" argument comes from. Its no different to every other meta comes from, where broken mons have been banned, new stuff has arisen. This isn't an argument to ban tera, it's a statement of an inevitability. Banning tera won't stop this process.

 

[urban]

Thanks for posting that list Finchinator.

I am most of the way through reqs, but my opinion hasn't changed since the generation was released, so I doubt the last few games will cause much of a difference. The list Finch just posted is actually pretty mindboggling and a good indicator of why some form of tiering action is necessary. There are 39 Pokemon in B- rank and above. Among them, Finch listed an astounding 133 possible tera types. Now obviously, it's dubious to claim that every single viable tera type on a Pokemon counts as a separate threat you need to account for, but there being 3-4 viable tera types per viable Pokemon means the actual threat list is a magnitude larger than 39 Pokemon. Putting an exact number to it is obviously tough, but surely even a modest estimate would suggest 60 or more viable threats in the tier thanks to tera. This is exacerbated by the unpredictability of tera in many situations, which I don't really feel the need to explain in detail as others have already done a better job of doing so.

As far as the specific tiering action I prefer, I have been in the full ban camp since the start of the generation. The potential options for middle ground tiering solutions have never really felt right to me. To me, they are attempts to preserve a mechanic that I think is likely to be banned in its entirety down the line, especially with some nasty threats looming in Home. I understand the desire to take incremental action, but the alternatives offered are overly complex and stray too far from the original intent of the mechanic to me. Ultimately, I think this is a case where the simplest solution is the best one.

For ranking the remaining three options, it was hard to decide which was was best, so I scored each option from 1-5 on two parameters - how well they preserve the original intent of the mechanic and how I think they will influence the competitiveness of the metagame. I gave double weight to the competitiveness score for what I assume are pretty obvious reasons. I am not going to go into deep reasoning on any of these because I don't think anyone really cares. Just know that I am in the Ban/No Ban camp where I would prefer not to have to vote for any of these options.

Option (Original Intent Score / Competitiveness Score / Total Score)
1 Tera User per Team (3 / 3 / 9)
Reveal Tera at Team Preview (4 / 2 / 8)
Only STAB Tera Types Allowed (1 / 2 / 5)

So my final vote will be:
Tiering Action Needed
Outright Ban > 1 Tera User per Team > Reveal Tera at Team Preview > Only STAB Tera Types Allowed

For gaming out how I think this vote is going to go, I think it's likely that "Tiering Action Needed" will eke out a narrow win in the first round. From there, I think its clear that "Outright Ban" will remain through all of the ranked choice rounds, though its unclear how many rounds of RCV will be needed. If the vote ends in fewer than the maximum number of rounds (3), then "Outright Ban" has certainly won. If it goes the full three rounds, I think its a toss up between "Outright Ban" and whatever the remaining option is. I encourage everyone, especially those in the "No Tiering Action Needed" camp, to think carefully and strategically with your rankings in the RCV rounds.

 

[KKirby]

As someone who just hit the requirements to vote for the suspect test, let me briefly elaborate on my stance on the current situation.
The arguments to ban Terastallization are not very compelling to me. Proponents of banning tera typically note that it is very unpredictable. I think is is overblown, but also, I don't think it's bad for the meta at all.
If someone's Annihilape reveals Taunt and Bulk Up, then you probably know it's tera water, with a small chance of it being tera fairy. If someone's running a choice locked Chi-Yu, it's probably a STAB tera, with the possibility of grass tera with tera blast. For most pokemon, what their tera type is can typically be deduced into one of these 2 options.
However, obviously tera types aren't always limited to the typical options, which can be very unpredictable and surprising, but also usually only provides a small or situational niche. This usually results in more pokemon having more viable potential roles in any given game, which I argue is very good. For example, I got reqs with a hyper offense team using tera ghost Great Tusk to prevent other Great Tusks or Iron Treads from rapid spinning on my rocks. This gave Great Tusk an additional, but yes, unpredictable, small niche. This didn't mean it was impossible to play around, but the surprise factor would situationally put my opponent in a much worse position. Of course, using this tera type for the small niche comes at the downside that I can't tera any of my other pokemon anymore, which is usually why you won't see many tera types not on Finch's general list.
My point is, that unpredictable tera type I used was in fact surprising and did in fact put me in a better situation due to the surprise factor, but did not result in an unwinnable position for my opponent, and does wonders for giving Great Tusk an additional role in the meta as a hyper offense lead, which is simply healthy for the meta as it acts, somewhat, as a counter to Glimmora hyper offense leads.

On the topic of the 4 tiering options, since I believe tera's unpredictability is what makes it so healthy for the meta, I wil tier them, and encourage others with a goal similar to me, to tier them in this way:

1. One Tera User Per Team
2. Reveal Tera at Team Preview
3. Only STAB Teras Allowed
4. Full Ban on Tera

Limiting tera to one pokemon still allows for an unpredictable tera type, just on a predictable tera mon, which I think is more valuable than having an unpredictable tera mon with predictable tera types. Only STAB Teras gets rid of most of the value of tera, in my opinion. And, obviously I don't want Tera banned for the reasons discussed above.

Good luck to everyone getting reqs :)

 

[Moyashi]

If someone's Annihilape reveals Taunt and Bulk Up, then you probably know it's tera water, with a small chance of it being tera fairy.

You really don't. I've seen all five tera variants for Annihilape from the list Finch provided use taunt+bulk up, as well as rest+chesto. Generally speaking there are variations on tera type and set combos you can see potentially.

it's probably a STAB tera, with the possibility of grass tera with tera blast. For most pokemon, what their tera type is can typically be deduced into one of these 2 options.

This one i don't see how it is a defense of tera, and if anything reminds me to mention that same type tera boosts are stupid as all get out and mons like Chi-Yu or Pult exemplify this. But no less dangerous same type tera abusers like Chien-Pao or Iron Valiant as well (specs fairy valiant is silly). As far as unpredictability goes, not sure how you'd argue it is healthy for the metagame. Your Great Tusk example is very tame by comparison to the egregious cases of pokemon tera typing to dodge weaknesses and counter kill supposed checks (or set up on them).

 

[vibivgc]

hi, not a super active OU player here but wanted to voice a quick thought.
a lot of people, myself included, want a preview on tera types in team preview to help deal with its unpredictable nature and let people plan around what they'll be dealing with tera wise, but there's nowhere to actually play with this information shown to see if this will actually work as a solution for OU gameplay

 

[thunderbug]

One of my favorite parts of the healthy and fair tera mechanic is when my sylveon switches into roaring moon and it clicks jaw lock and goes +6.

In a related story I will be ranking ban #1 others I’m not sure of order yet.

Same type tera solves my biggest gripe with the mechanic to an extent (being able to change your type on a whim with little to no opportunity cost is total bullshit) but at the same time this may just be because the team I spam has 4 same type tera users, a water ting lu for murder fish, and a glimmora. Adaptability everything also gets out of hand and has potential to break the meta more offensively even harder

1 per team does limit the nonsense during a game to a large extent however it also makes building even worse because no longer can more defensive teams tera reactively and it just encourages it to be a pure offense mechanic and the threat list is still fairly large in builder but less ways to actually play around it

Team preview does basically nothing to solve the oppressive nature of building and all it does is tell you directly how your going to lose which I guess is nicer than guessing who’s going to mighty morph into something random and off meta and can give set insight to some extent (if you see fire dragonite you know it’s fire punch for example and don’t have to be scared of like roost)

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

I think if we are to ban something we should instead ban mons that become OP with a specific tera type.
The same way we did with Mega-Evolution, some megas got banned, but others didn't.

Mega Evolution and Terastalization don't even compare. Mega Evolution needed the mon to give up their item slot, and not all mons could Mega Evolve. Because of the former point, banning the broken Mega was as easy as banning the Mega Stone. Neither of these are true of Terastalize. ...And that's the problem. On any given team, there can be several good Tera users, and some of them can be effective with more than one Tera type. And the counterplay will differ drastically depending on said Tera type. Look at Finchinator's list of mons above. Most of them work well with at least three Tera types. How many of those are gonna have to take the fall for you to be satisfied? Because honestly, banning mons to try to save Terastalize accomplishes naught.

 

[GrandpaTheGreat]

First, I just want to say thanks to finch for the compendium!

I'm still working on getting to the requirements, so my opinions might change. At the current moment, I have mixed thoughts about Terra. On its own, it can definitely be a frustrating mechanic at times. But on the other hand, I'm not sure banning terrastalization will fix the meta's issues, as many of its most egregious abusers would be worthy of a suspect test without tera anyway.

Even without Tera Water, Annihilape would still invalidate stall, still have a tricky type to hit for major damage, and still be oppressive behind screens. Even without Tera, Roaring Moon would still be oppressive against offensive teams. Even without Tera, games would still be swingy due to how heavily switching is punished with Gholdengo around. Banning terra wouldn't keep Cyclizar from facilitating oppressive setup sweeps. These are cases where Terastalization is simply magnifying already existing issues within the meta rather than causing new issues to occur.

However, Terastalization still does have cases where it very much can be pointed to as the main culprit. Tera Ghost Dragapult has allowed it to finally overcome one of the limitations keeping it reasonable: Lack of access to a decent physical ghost move. This has definitely pushed it to pretty oppressive levels, and even dedicated responses to it can struggle. Similarly, Tera Normal Dragonite has been pretty oppressive versus offense teams.

Even outside specific abusers, Terastalization itself can cause a great deal of frustration. What answers a mon has can completely change upon Terastalizating, and thus can often be done after the opponent has lost whatever answers they had to that mon with the new type, which can especially be devastating in a meta that is so offense-heavy that sacs are often a necessary evil. For example, Player A may be relying on Stored Power or Rage first to overcome Unaware, only for Player B's unaware mon to reveal tera dark. Player C might be relying on Roaring Moon as their one check to Chi-yu, only for it to reveal terra fairy. Games can feel very swingy as a result, especially when hazard stacking and an offensive pace can make it unaffordable to attempt more slow, deliberate scouting strategies.

Overall, it is a very complex situation, and I think Finch's mention early on of potential re-tests to explore all the potential avenues would be a good idea for experimentation's sake. I'm still working on understanding the current meta, so take what I say with a grain of salt

 

[658Greninja]

100 is not a literal number in this instance. I just find recovery pokemon and stupid hard walls like Garg/Dodonzo to be extremely annoying. Every gen has had them and tera helps to take those walls out. Healing and stacking buffs is just horribly uninteresting to me and my hope was that this gen would depart from that and so far it has but if tera is banned I fear it'll just become Gen 8 II electric boogaloo and I'm not for that.

(Got swept 6 0 by a dodonzo in-between these replies even.. maybe i'm the problem)

To all the people fearmongering that stall will dominate once Tera leaves, consider this. When Dynamax was banned in pre-Home SS, we had amazing wallbreakers in Conk, Pult, Kyu, and Zera. The reason why the meta was put in a Port Clef/Toad/Corv unfun house was because of broken ahh Vish forces 1 defensive fatmon onto teams. Same thing with broken Darkfu. That shit forced Regen wall + Dark resist on every fucking team, even when Crown Tundra came out with more offensive dark resists you still had to run that same Regen wall. When Spectrier was legal, the shit people put on their teams was stuff that only 1000 players could think of being legit. Shadow Ball Blissey. Snarl Defensive Defog Hydreigon. SpD Tar. These are all passive fatmons forced onto teams cause of one singular broken threat. The point is, you can’t assume the meta will be more passive when the broken shit forces said fatmons onto teams, just for them. If anything, Stall was worse then its ever been since Gen 5, albeit its still very viable. Future Sight, Weavile, NP Torn, Blaziken, SD Kart, SD Chomp, etc all tore Stall a new one.

Now consider the fact that in this gen, recovery moves are nerfed to 8 pp, and gen 9 introduced a shitton of offensive threats that tear balance cores like paper such as Pao, Valiant, Tusks, etc. (didn’t name the fish cause that shits broken) Even if the tier were to be in a state of having no Tera, you still would not be seeing 100 turn games frequently. There are better pro-Tera arguments, this isn’t one of them.

 

[PokePoindexter]

Not to mention Pex losing Scald, Blissey and Slows losing Teleport, and a variety of other ways Stall got glassed in gen 9. Probably the only new significant toy Stall got this gen is Ting-Lu, and even that thing is far from infallible (e.g. 6 weaknesses and no recovery besides Rest).

 

[Excalibuwrath]

Tera Type Index: SV OU

Amoonguss Water, Fire, Fairy
Annihilape Water, Fire, Fairy, Normal, Dark
Azumarill Water
Baxcalibur Fairy, Ice, Dragon
Blissey Fairy, Ghost
Breloom Fighting, Grass, Fire
Chi-Yu Fire, Ghost, Grass
Chien-Pao Ice, Ghost, Fighting, Dark
Clodsire Water, Dark, Steel
Corviknight Ground, Dark, Dragon, Water, Flying
Cyclizar Ghost, Steel
Dondozo Fairy, Grass, Steel
Dragapult Ghost, Dark
Dragonite Normal, Steel, Fire
Espathra Fairy, Fighting
Garchomp Steel, Ghost, Water
Garganacl Water, Flying, Grass, Fairy, Ghost, Steel
Gholdengo Ghost, Steel, Fighting, Normal, Dark
Glimmora Ghost, Steel, Grass, Fairy, Flying
Great Tusk Ground, Fighting, Steel, Water, Flying
Grimmsnarl Ghost, Poison, Steel
Hatterene: Water, Flying, Steel
Iron Hands Electric, Fighting, Flying
Iron Moth Poison, Fire, Fairy, Grass, Flying
Iron Treads Ghost, Ground, Flying
Iron Valiant Electric, Ghost, Fairy, Fighting, Poison, Dark
Kingambit Dark, Flying, Ghost, Steel
Meowscarada Grass, Fairy, Dark
Quaquaval Water, Fighting
Roaring Moon Steel, Dark, Flying
Rotom-Wash Steel, Water, Ghost
Scizor Steel, Fire, Electric, Flying
Skeledirge Fairy, Dark, Fire
Slowking Water
Ting-Lu Poison, Steel, Water, Ground, Fairy
Torkoal Ghost, Flying, Fire, Steel
Toxapex Water, Fairy, Grass, Steel, Dark
Tyranitar Steel, Ghost
Volcarona Grass, Psychic, Bug

So question: how many of these are probably too oppressive in a Tera meta even with Tera Preview? In other words, if we choose the (IMO) best restrict option rather than banning, how much stuff is probably going to need tiering action later?

That list, to me, is the stuff that's oppressive even without Tera (Chi-Yu) and the stuff that's oppressive because its offensive power with Tera is just too much even though you're generally not guessing between Tera types with completely different counterplay (Chien-Pao, Dragapult, Dragonite).

Next question: how many of these are probably too oppressive in this Tera meta thanks in large part due to their unpredictability? In other words, which problematic Pokemon are made much less so with Tera Preview?

Annihilape could fit here, but I think Tera still makes it problematic even if its predictable; any Tera type that gives it fewer common weaknesses makes this already lethal Pokemon even harder to deal with. The options that clearly fit in this list, to me, are Espathra, Roaring Moon, and Volcarona. I think they form a neat group of "Pokemon that are immensely scary but any given Tera type has enough counterplay that you can manage it with Tera Preview". I think you could maybe argue to put Iron Valiant or Garganacl on this list too?

Everything else falls in some category of "too predictable with Tera options to be problematic" or "very unpredictable but probably isn't problematic because it doesn't rip you apart quickly enough to really abuse that unpredictability" or "not problematic, Tera is a really nice tool this Pokemon has to make it versatile in this meta", and of course "this Pokemon nominally has a Tera type but in reality you never want to click Tera here except in very specific matchup".

You can quibble with any of the specific examples, of course. My point is more that from the perspective of "we don't want to pick a solution to Tera that requires us to take further tiering action on half the meta", there isn't that much stuff that's probably worthy of tiering action now, probably not worthy of tiering action without Tera, and probably not largely addressed by the Tera Preview option. Just looking at the tiering survey, Chi-Yu's probably problematic even without Tera, Tera isn't really why Gholdengo's problematic, there's at least a reasonable case that the unpredictability of Tera that Preview reins in would address Espathra's issues, and while even Tera Preview Annihilape is quite possibly too much, I think there's a reasonable case that it's just too oppressive without Tera too.

All this is to say that I don't really see many obvious instances of specific problematic Pokemon that an outright Tera ban would handle that Tera Preview definitely won't. I definitely think that Tera Preview will require separate tiering action on Dragonite that wouldn't be needed if we just banned Tera and took away its ability to be discount Arceus, and maybe Tera Preview is worse than Tera Ban at addressing Dragapult and Chien-Pao if those two are problematic. However, in exchange, Tera Preview leaves the good aspects of Tera (for one, there's so much role compression available when everything has the option to get a new typing to check a second set of Pokemon) while reducing the more obnoxious guessing games, like which of your Espathra checks gets destroyed and which one handles it. Tera Preview allows you to assess which Tera types are valid win-cons for both you and your opponent, and I think being aware of your opponent's opportunity cost for clicking Tera at any given time allows for interactive counterplay.

And besides, even if we try to balance around Tera Preview and it ends up being insufficient, it just doesn't seem that there's that much stuff that we'll have to go back to reconsider. It really does just seem like "okay Dragonite and Dragapult are probably fine now that we got rid of Tera for real" and that's that.

 

[HeartfulKitty]

Been kinda swamped due to the holidays, so I haven't been able to get reqs yet. If/when I do, however, I know how I'll be voting.

Given that the council has expressed a willingness to retest terastallization in the future, I find a full ban to be a rather unnecessary decision, as we don't actually know whether any of the proposed solutions will work or fail in curbing it. Sure, we can make some decent guesses, but until it's tested it cannot actually be known. However, it's clear that terastallization is problematic currently, so something must be done. I think it's rather uncontroversial to say that the problematic factor mainly boils down to the various ways it benefits offensive threats, so my preferences are as follows:

1. Reveal tera type at preview. This removes a significant amount of unpredictability--as Finch has shown with his compiled list of common tera types, there's so many options that it's difficult to account for all of them while playing. This removes that issue. Multiple problematic threats will still likely need to be banned, but I'd argue it's worth it.

2. Only one mon can tera. This also removes some of the unpredictability, but it hurts defensive pokemon more than team preview. As such, I'm not a huge fan of it.

3. Outright ban. Something must be done, so if the first two don't happen, then I'd rather a full ban than keeping it as is.

4. Only allowing STAB tera. This idea ruins 99% of defensive options while keeping some of the most potent offensive capabilities of tera. I get that some mons would probably not be (arguably) broken anymore like Roaring Moon, but the collateral of most defensive applications make this feel worse than a full ban to me.

 

[Saltytears]

Chien Pao & Chi Yu are broken regardless of tera

Kingambit & Garganacl aren't broken to begin with and Moon isn't broken IMO

Dnite, Pult, Ape, Espathra are the ones already listed.

Magearna's ubers regardless, doubt tran is bokren, not coming back, not coming back, not coming back, ubers regardless, not coming back, already listed, not coming back, not coming back.

You haven't listed a confirmed returning pokemon that wasn't already one of the 6 mentioned, and we can't ban tera based on "What if this pokemon comes back." IF all the speculated mons return and IF they turn out to be broken, we can reconsider tera later.

After reaching 1800+ I had way more trouble handling kingambit & garg outside of tera fairy chiyu sniping spdef moon , cb dark moon hit a little less than cb dark chien but it got eq to hit tauros , "ubers regardless" we dont know yet with the gen 9 addition it's speculation like you love to say , also tbh I didn't look at the home coming back list I just took gen 8 ou and pointed obvious stuff and I can bet tran will be broken being able to change typing to trap WHATEVER IT WANT TO (little example from gen 8 hey garchomp/dnite I"'ll just tera fly)

 

[OpiuMMysT]

I think when a game has prediction heavier than a player's own skill, it is neither as serious nor fun, one can be champion being heavily worse than others and the most skilled might lose the first round. Terastalization reduces that factor, worry less for what the other can do, focus more in your own strategy, i would just leave it as it is, free, unknown, any type, anyone. This can prevent the classic "one team -counter team - counter counter team", and open the game for way more options, guessing what the other may or not do being more unknown benefits focusing on what you yourself can do. I suppose this makes some players used to predictions scared, but i find it extremely healthy in general, maybe in the future we can reduce the effect of luck and the % facts and we might even have a balanced game.
On the other hand, voting this could have been done simplier and with the choice of leaving terastalization as it is, i already see whatever we choose we are forced to be more predictable, i see too many scared people when something changes their comfort zone... Now let's see if i know how to vote lol

 

[OpiuMMysT]

please read for posts before you make your own post

The main thing i wanted to say is exactly the opposite, that is the mind of the "i need to know what you're gonna do" player rather than the "i dont care what you do, im fine with my strategy", as that says 3-4 types viable (which will anyways change with new updates) and already began to worry about how to counter that, "restricting team creation". What i say is forget about how to counter others and worry on making a solid team urself, if i see most people begin to guess i tera my skeledirge ground for earth power (which usually no one guesses though, and it can't be bad or gimmicky when u get over 1500 rating using that) i will simply choose one of the many other types either offensive or defensive, if people thinks this makes the game restrictive is because they are still obsessed on knowing everything the enemy can do, ("oh mmm which type will it tera into?") and what I (and many more too) think is the game is way funnier when you are more unexpected. Want or not, it opens more possibilities, even if you think they are stupid or worthless, that may be the point of the person doing the strategy, so it isn't predicted, without tera ghost my doubles hazard teams probably wouldn't work much, and what if i want to use that strategy, oh you didn't expect that surprise factor? Welcome to war. I'm tired whenever something appears some players want to restrict as many things as possible so everything fits into squares which can be calculated, battling and war is pure chaos, let it be chaos. Then again, if my opinion is less valuable than the opinion of whoever said that, there's little to no point of letting players giving their thoughts and vote, just do what you want so the game fits ur likes and f everyone else who disagrees. I won't cry or nothing, if i don't like and not enjoy how showdown is, i leave it, i have been playing showdown ages, i started with tyranitar's gen2 (all was around that mon lol), and I haven't touched it for years (those where weather teams were the only viable option, boooooring). Just check at the usage, what happened when u banned things in the past? Did showdown have more players or less?

I take the chance too to say BRING BACK TRIPLE BATTLES AND RANDOM TRIPLES! (There was many many people not afraid of the millions of different choices in triples, it was click and fight instantly, people liked it)

 

[Chorenn]

I do want to ask something in the (seemingly unlikely) event we leave Tera untouched, especially due to the willingness of revisiting Tera in the future: Would there be any plans to create a "Tera Banlist" (As in Pokemon get suspected in a Teraless format, and if players find the Pokemon is only broken because of Tera, then it's banned from Terastalizating), or would any abusers of Tera just get banned to Ubers?

I fully understand opposition to doing a "Tera Banlist" (Complex ban + needing to revisit Tera as a whole if/once said List starts getting too long + Doesn't address other issues with Tera people have + Other reasons I can't think of here), but I don't know if that would be considered an acceptable form of action against Tera for some people.