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Hello everyone, we're back with our 7000th suspect test this generation. This time, ~54% of you communicated to us that you would like to see a suspect test for Galarian Moltres, so here we are.
Galarian Moltres has had ups and downs over the course of this generation. When Nihilego and Mamoswine were at their apex in recent times, it was seen as a lesser option; the increased dominance of Pokemon like Aegislash, Scizor, Skarmory, Hippowdon and Excadrill has sent these Pokemon out of favour, though, which has sent Galarian Moltres over the edge in the eyes of many players. Doesn't help that Lycanroc-Dusk is down pretty bad too.
The bird's double dance set is an absolute nightmare to play against. After an Agility, the only Pokemon capable of outspeeding Galarian Moltres is Excadrill in sand, meaning your only real hope on standard teams is defeating it defensively or with priority. Most priority users don't really hit it hard enough; Mamoswine and Lycanroc-Dusk nail it, but they've seen better days, and Galarian Moltres has the natural bulk required to handle Bullet Punches from Scizor and Aqua Jets from Azumarill just fine. Handling it defensively is very difficult too, with Chansey falling off a cliff in recent times and Nihilego taking a pretty big hit too. Options for handling +2/+3 Galarian Moltres are essentially limited to these two Pokemon, Celesteela, specially defensive Primarina, and miscellaneous niche Pokemon like Diancie and Sylveon, all of which have really seen better days. Its set variety is a huge deal, too; Nasty Plot + Rest sets dominate Chansey and easily heal off any damage they took while setting up, and you constantly have to be wary of autolosing to Weakness Policy sets, making it risky to hit it with Volt Switch. And let's not forget the many, many times we've had our Rock-types flinched down from full HP... While not ordinarily a reason to ban anything, Galarian Moltres's ability to turn many otherwise safe counters on their head simply by getting a single timely Fiery Wrath flinch or Hurricane confusion is undesirable, to say the least.
With that said, Galarian Moltres isn't the bulkiest thing ever or anything. It's true that strong physical attackers like Excadrill, Zygarde-10% and Conkeldurr don't give it entirely free setup, while a lot of special attackers like Thundurus-T anad Primarina can hit it hard enough to make it manageable via priority moves. It's also not always amazing at getting both boosts on non-healing sets (either Resto Chesto or Sitrus Berry), which can make it flounder in some matchups if it doesn't proc its Weakness Policy or if it's facing a hard offense team.
The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.
GXE
minimum games
80
50
80.2
49
80.4
48
80.6
47
80.8
46
81
45
81.2
44
81.4
43
81.6
42
81.8
41
82
40
82.2
39
82.4
38
82.6
37
82.8
36
83
35
83.2
34
83.4
33
83.6
32
83.8
31
84
30
Other than that, the test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UU12M (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UU12M Lily to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.
Participants will have until Sunday, May 1st at 7:00 PM GMT -4 to meet voting requirements and post in the Alt Identification Thread. PLEASE DO NOT POST YOUR CONFIRMED SUSPECT RESULTS HERE - there is a dedicated thread for identifying your suspect results. Happy laddering!
got reqs (can't post them yet cuz Lily bad TL).
haven't post in a while to talk about the metagame or shifts.
here am I.
Not gonna lie, I was quite on the fence 24h ago and I actually voted against a suspect test of Moltres-Galar. However, after playing exactly 40 games to get my reqs, I can definitively say I'll be voting ban on Moltres-Galar.
I wasn't using a squad too weak to Moltres-Galar on paper, with a Nihilego with a custom EVs to check it to a certain extent, but the fact that Moltres-Galar only needed a flinch during a few games to bypass my strongest asset to deal with it is kinda dumb. Haxx is definitively part of Pokémon but the fact that Moltres-Galar can "ensure" that it will be able to bypass strongs checks 20% of the time is trully obnoxious. I don't think Moltres-Galar would be that much of an issue with only Berserk or both Agility and Nasty Plot but the sheer combined one makes it really hard to punish. I talked about Nihilego earlier which is a great check to Moltres-Galar (and probably the most common one) but it can't even ensure the OHKO with Stealth Rocks up on 0/0 bulk Moltres-Galar, like bruh. Moltres-Galar is basically way too bulky for what it's able to do which means, it can always find a way to setup. I don't really remembered who said that in the last thread (Monky25 I thinK ?) but the fact that we have to run dedicated shit like Diancie to actually counter Moltres-Galar is trully dumb. I feel like the metagame would be way more healthier without it and it doesn't bring that much on the defensive side apart of checking most Aegislash's set. Don't have time nor faith to do a 50 lines post so that's all for me.
I want it to be in OU because I love Moltres-Galar but with it limited move pool I think its not a good fit for OU and should stay in UU. Regieleki is a different story.
So my thought on Goltres right now is that it does not need to be banned. I think there are several good reasons to keep it around, which I'll talk about below.
Goltres, while powerful, is not without common, meta-relevant checks. I'll go briefly into each one below:
I am going to heavily disagree with the original post saying that Nihilego has been going down - in my eyes, it got even better with Scizor's arrival, since it checks just about every one of Scizor's checks and so is very easy to put on teams right now. Nihilego has excellent special bulk, resists Hurricane, threatens Goltres with STAB Rock attacks, and naturally outspeeds an unboosted Goltres, making it a very sturdy check. Nihilego also provides its teams with valuable utility in Knock Off and Stealth Rock, allowing it to make progress throughout a game, and meaning it is not a check solely put on teams to handle Goltres (when this does happen, it is often a sign that a Pokemon is broken). Finally, an underrated aspect of Nihilego that makes it an even better Goltres check is the fact that it is not obligated to use a Rock move vs. Goltres immediately to check it. This is important when scouting for a Weakness Policy on Goltres - if the WP Goltres user predicts a super-effective hit, but knows they will survive it, they can set up Nasty Plot or Agility, depending on what boosts they already have, and will gain further boosts from WP and likely Berserk as well, at which point Goltres may truly become unstoppable barring priority attacks. Nihilego does not have to risk this situation and can instead simply use Sludge Bomb to put Goltres in range of a Power Gem KO without risking WP activating.
Specifically Choice Scarf Rotom-Wash makes a great check to Goltres because it can check it in multiple ways: it can threaten damage/a KO on Goltres with a fast Volt Switch, or it can Trick Goltres its Choice Scarf, at which point playing around it becomes much easier. Choice Scarf Rotom-Wash also usually packs Pain Split, which allows it to heal off any damage it may have taken from Goltres, or at least bring Goltres' health into revenge KO range if Rotom-Wash cannot KO Goltres on its own. Choice Scarf Rotom-Wash is also an excellent pick in the current meta in general right now, providing a great speed control option that can bluff its pivot set and threaten or outspeed many great Pokemon. Even if it cannot check some Pokemon on its own, Choice Scarf Rotom-Wash's combination of fast Volt Switch and Hydro Pump means blocking its pivot attempts is never safe, making it an accessible way to add a Goltres check to many teams.
Primarina is one of the Pokemon that can really threaten Goltres due to its high SpA, good natural bulk, and variety of sets. The RestTalk set is able to switch into Goltres more reliably to threaten with Moonblast, while more offensive variants may be able to outright OHKO Goltres depending on the EV investment on both sides. While Primarina does not appreciate repeated Hurricanes from Goltres, these are hardly guaranteed to land (even landing two in a row is only a 49% chance), so with a secondary check, Primarina makes teams quite solid against Goltres. Primarina admittedly does seem to be on a bit of a downward trend at the moment, but it's nowhere near a bad choice in the current meta, still checking a variety of threats, providing a bulky win condition, or blowing holes in the opposing team, depending on its set.
Cobalion is a less traditional Goltres check due to being neutral to Hurricane and having relatively low SpDef, but it also carries several advantages that make Goltres think twice before attempting to sweep. First, Cobalion is naturally faster than Goltres. It commonly carries two methods of 2HKOing Goltres in Stone Edge and Close Combat. It also has the ability to take one unboosted Hurricane, allowing it to switch into a non-speed boosted Goltres and making it a good backup check. Finally, Cobalion has other options, that, while less common, are very capable of neutering Goltres' effectiveness; Swords Dance, Taunt, and Thunder Wave. A +2 Attack Cobalion can OHKO Goltres with either Close Combat or Stone Edge; Taunt shuts down Goltres' attempts to boost or Rest; and Thunder Wave slows Goltres to a crawl to allow slower threats that normally would not be able to revenge KO Goltres to do so.
Chansey is the best special wall UU has to offer and thus takes on the Double Dance variant of Goltres well. It may opt to status Goltres with Toxic or Thunder Wave and/or pound it with Seismic Tosses while Goltres is whittled down and Chansey comfortably recovers any damage off with Softboiled. Chansey does need to be careful to not allow Goltres to accrue too many boosts, as at very high levels of boosted SpA, even Chansey cannot comfortably handle Goltres, but this is manageable with good play. Chansey needs also to be mindful of repeated flinches, which can cause Goltres to break through Chansey if the Chansey user is particularly unlucky. The bigger issue is the RestTalk set, which was designed to beat the stall teams Chansey is found on, and does this very well. Chansey will need its teammates to handle this variant of Goltres, so Chansey cannot be considered a Goltres counter. As a whole though, pairing Chansey with something that can damage Goltres is not hard, and will be enough to handle it in most cases without compromising team quality.
Azumarill is a bit of an odd offensive check to Goltres, in that it usually does not want to switch into Galarian Moltres (unless it is an AV set, which can comfortably take two Hurricanes) and in that it is slower than Goltres, meaning it must always risk taking a hit in order to hit Goltres back. However, once it is in, every Azumarill variant threatens an OHKO on Goltres with Play Rough. Azumarill, even without an Assault Vest, is bulky enough to take a Hurricane from Goltres (potentially even at +1 SpA), so its presence means that Goltres must be mindful about setting up. Azumarill should never be a team's only Goltres check (unless, again, it is using an AV), but it aids in keeping it from plowing through teams.
Lycanroc-Dusk is another offensive check to Goltres, and one that doesn't care as much about Goltres' boosting attempts thanks to STAB- and Tough Claws-boosted priority Accelerock hitting Goltres super effectively. The Double Dance Goltres variant takes 70.4 - 83.4% from Accelerock, meaning even a bit of chip damage puts Goltres into revenge KO range (the RestTalk variant takes over 50%, being 2HKO'd). If Goltres has not yet accrued an Agility boost, Lycanroc-Dusk can also outspeed and OHKO any Goltres from any range with Stone Edge. Lycanroc-Dusk does take a ton of damage from Fiery Wrath and so can't let its health drop too low throughout a match, especially if Goltres manages to get an Agility off as or before Lycanroc-Dusk switches in, but this is manageable. In terms of meta trends, Lycan has unfortunately been on the decline with Scizor's drop and the increase in bulky Steel-types to deal with Scizor, but Lycan is still not a bad pick.
Mamoswine is like a combination of Azumarill and Lycanroc-Dusk in how it checks Goltres. It's slower than Goltres, but threatens it with powerful STAB priority Ice Shard, and an OHKO from Icicle Crash. Like Azumarill, Mamoswine can take one hit from Goltres, so it can switch into a weakened Goltres and revenge KO it with Ice Shard. If it is healthy enough, it may even be able to hit it with Icicle Crash. Though rare, Mamoswine can also run an Assault Vest, making it a more sturdy check to Goltres.
Another offensive check, but one that Goltres is more comfortable against. A standard Scizor spread doesn't exist yet, and Scizor can run any number of sets to complement its team's needs, but here are a few example calcs from various ends of the spectrum to illustrate how effective various Scizors are at checking Goltres:
Choice Band -----Scizor Attacking-----
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres-Galar: 177-208 (55.1 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres-Galar: 205-243 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres-Galar: 262-310 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -----Unboosted Goltres Attacking-----
252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 162-192 (52 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Hurricane vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 198-234 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -----+2 SpA Boosted Goltres Attacking-----
+2 252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 324-382 (104.1 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Hurricane vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 396-466 (127.3 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Offensive Swords Dance -----Unboosted Scizor Attacking-----
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres-Galar: 153-181 (47.6 - 56.3%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres-Galar: 230-270 (71.6 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -----+2 Attack Boosted Scizor Attacking-----
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres-Galar: 305-360 (95 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres-Galar: 456-538 (142 - 167.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO -----Unboosted Goltres Attacking-----
252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 160-190 (56.9 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 196-232 (69.7 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -----+2 SpA Goltres Attacking-----
+2 252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 322-379 (114.5 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 393-463 (139.8 - 164.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bulky Swords Dance -----Unboosted Scizor Attacking-----
252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres-Galar: 118-139 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO -----+2 Atk Scizor Attacking-----
+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres-Galar: 235-277 (73.2 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -----Unboosted Goltres Attacking-----
252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 162-192 (52 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Hurricane vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 198-234 (63.6 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -----+2 SpA Boosted Goltres Attacking-----
+2 252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 324-382 (104.1 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Hurricane vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 396-466 (127.3 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Specially Defensive -----Scizor Attacking-----
0 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres-Galar: 88-105 (27.4 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres-Galar: 103-123 (32 - 38.3%) -- 96.2% chance to 3HKO -----Goltres Attacking-----
252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 112-133 (32.6 - 38.7%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 136-162 (39.6 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO -----+2 SpA Boosted Goltres Attacking-----
+2 252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 223-264 (65 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 273-322 (79.5 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Thundy is obviously a dangerous offensive check to Goltres. Despite its massive SpA and STAB Thunderbolt, however, it still does not OHKO Goltres, doing 82.2 - 97.1% to the Double Dance variant. This means that a small amount of chip damage is enough to secure the KO on Goltres, but Thundy cannot hope to survive one Fiery Wrath from Goltres upon switching in and then KO Goltres immediately afterwards, since Thundy will be taken out by the second Fiery Wrath. As for Volt Switch, it is still strong enough to 2HKO the Double Dance variant, but may not 2HKO the RestTalk variant, and Thundy must be careful of giving Goltres game-winning Berserk boosts.
Chinese Registeel is one of Goltres' only counters, being able to set up Amnesia in its face (taking only 20 - 23.9% from an unboosted Fiery Wrath from the Double Dance set), and being able to heal off any damage with Rest. Chinese Registeel doesn't even fear multiple boosts: +6 252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 289-342 (79.3 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. It can take Goltres out in return with Body Press, using Iron Defense boosts to power it up.
Diancie is the very rare Pokemon able to resist both of Goltres' STAB attacks, and thus is another counter to it. Diancie can in return threaten Goltres with Diamond Storm or Moonblast, or reduce Goltres' SpA with Mystical Fire. The issue with Diancie is that it's quite difficult to fit on teams at the moment with the current strength of Steel-types, making one of Goltres' best answers rare.
Rhyperior is another rare sight that nonetheless can deal with Goltres reliably. Fiery Wrath caps out at 38% damage on Rhyperior, while Rhyperior can OHKO Goltres with Stone Edge in return. Like Diancie, Rhyperior has a lot of issues in the current meta, this time not because of Steel-types but because of Water- and Grass-types, but it's still a respectable choice that can patch certain teams up against Goltres.
Ditto again is quite rare right now, but it's one of the surest ways to make Goltres think twice about setting up, since it will always outspeed Goltres and be able to hit it back just as hard. This of course doesn't help against the RestTalk set nearly as much as it does vs. the Double Dance set, but Hyper Offense teams have been seeing a resurgence lately, and where HO goes, Ditto follows, so it is something to keep in mind.
Goltres has a valuable presence in the tier in checking Pokemon like Aegislash, Azelf, and Zarude. Right now, a Dark-type in UU is needed on most teams in order to check the extremely strong Aegislash. Dark-types also provide their teams with valuable defensive backbone against other top threats through a Psychic immunity and Dark and Ghost resistances. Goltres has great natural bulk that allows it to stomach any unboosted hit from any of the 3 Pokemon mentioned (barring the rare Steel Beam on Choice Specs Aegislash, and even then the RestTalk variant is not OHKO'd), and can very often take multiple of them. This means that Goltres is a reliable check to several extremely viable and dangerous Pokemon in UU, and banning it would force teams into using a smaller number of checks to these Pokemon. In addition to the 3 mentioned, Goltres also checks many other Pokemon currently listed on the UU Viability Rankings, including but not limited to: Alolan Marowak, Amoonguss, Celebi, Conkeldurr, Crobat, Dhelmise, Galarian Slowbro, Heracross, Jirachi, Krookodile, Polteageist, Reuniclus, Roserade, Salazzle, Sirfetch'd, Skarmory, Starmie, Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, and Tentacruel. Again, removing it would reduce the number of options teams have to check these Pokemon.
Goltres provides a great stallbreaker. In this case, I am specifically talking about the RestTalk set. This set accrues boosts repeatedly when it is taken below 50% HP thanks to Berserk, and Rests off damage and/or status, allowing it to slowly snowball into a monster that even special tanks like Chansey cannot handle once fully boosted. Stall teams typically struggle to beat this variant of Goltres, and removing Goltres would remove an option UU teams have for playing around this archetype.
Goltres' hax potential has been blown out of proportion, and Hurricane's inconsistency has been underplayed in the discussion. A flinch from Fiery Wrath, the weaker of Goltres' two STAB options, is only a 20% possibility, while Hurricane will miss 30% of the time. I've seen a lot of discussion saying that Goltres only needs one flinch to break through its checks, which can be true, but it is equally true that Goltres can fail to beat something that it "should" beat just due to Hurricane missing - and this is the more likely of the two scenarios! I believe people focus more on the flinch aspect because you feel cheated when you get flinched, whereas people pay less attention to moves missing (and the Goltres user will likely be seen as a complainer if they talk about Hurricane misses costing them the game).
The constricting Pokemon on teambuilding is not Goltres, but Scizor. Goltres has had a lot of vitriol directed at it and how it can constrict teambuilding, but these complaints grew in number greatly after Scizor's arrival. Pre-Scizor, while Goltres had some complaints, talk of it being broken or banworthy was much more rare. I believe this is a result of two things:
Scizor greatly improves an archetype that Moltres-Galar is and has been a staple on throughout the generation: Hyper Offense. Thus, with the increased viability in HO teams, Goltres is being used more, and thus more people are losing games to it. Further, more games against Goltres means more people are losing more games to Fiery Wrath flinches, making this particularly annoying occurrence more common.
The checks to Scizor and Goltres (and many other offensive Pokemon) overlap in such a way that it is near-impossible to cover everything defensively for the Balance and Bulky Offense teams that dominated the meta pre-Scizor drop. This means that these teams often must accept being weak to one of the very many offensive threats in UU, including Azelf, Azumarill, Conkeldurr, Keldeo, Lycanroc-Dusk, Mamoswine, Nidoking, Nihilego, Primarina, Salamence, Sun teams, Thundurus-Therian, Zarude, Zygarde-10%, and indeed, Goltres and Scizor. Specifically looking at the overlap between Goltres and Scizor checks, there are only a few: Rotom-Wash, Cobalion, Scizor itself, and Chinese Registeel. Notice that even between these two Pokemon's checks, a weakness to several of the prominent offensive Pokemon I mentioned above has already appeared, necessitating more defensive backbone to patch up this weakness (or fast offensive potential, leaving the team frail). This problem becomes exponentially more difficult as you try to check all of the Pokemon I mentioned while still maintaining any progress-making potential. There are, however, two teamstyles that manage to avoid this issue by going to the extremes of teambuilding: Hyper Offense and Stall. Hyper Offense teams ignore this issue by beating the other team so quickly that defensive backbone is mostly irrelevant. Stall teams, on the other hand, forego offense entirely to manage all of these threats. I believe both of these teamstyles will continue to gain more and more prominence as the current metagame progresses, and this is an unhealthy and unenjoyable direction for the UU metagame to go (simply look back at when Kommo-o was in the tier if you need to remember what that kind of metagame looks like). Before Scizor dropped, this issue still existed, but was not as difficult to manage. To sum up this point, I believe Scizor's overlap in offensive checks with the offensive threats UU already possessed pre-drops is pushing the metagame in extreme directions of teambuilding that will lead to an unhealthy and unenjoyable metagame.
That's all from me on this topic. I'm aware that I am in a minority group here that doesn't believe Goltres should be banned, but I would feel as though I hadn't done the discussion justice had I not contributed these points. Thanks for reading, and good luck to those laddering for reqs!
I didn't notice but I'm stupid and don't know dates lol, so I've corrected the deadline. It's now Sunday, May 1st @ 7:00PM GMT -4. Thank you to pokemonisfun for pointing out the error!
first set subverts a lot of typical lines with rest talk gmolt and prevents it from being set up on by threats like DD Mence, DD gyara, SD scizor, SD aegislash, etc. Maintains the longevity and annoyance of resttalk while losing the downside of passivity.
second set is potent on HO teams -- losing hurricane coverage doesn't matter that much when you have enough natural bulk + rest to outlast resists + flinch chances. chesto + rest nullifies typical counterplay like toxic pert / hippo / chansey, and it essentially forces your opponent to choose between risking rest and going for a safer toxic line or going for a more risky line like harding in a soft check.
overall thoughts on gmolt are that even at baseline without hax it's very easily an a+ / s tier mon -- on games where it does roll even a little bit of luck, it's actively unfun and nearly impossible to counter. there's a wide diversity of viable spreads and sets that all have different counterplay, and it doesn't feel healthy to keep it in the tier.
Hello I got reqs and wanted to share my opinion, I think this mon is pretty overrated as a threat and especially in the context of the reality of the tier. It surprises me it actually ended up getting suspected/that this many people wanted it suspected/felt this strongly about it’s presence in the tier. I do understand why it’s being suspected and why it may be unhealthy, but I still think the weight of this pokemon is a fair bit over-exaggerated by a large portion of the community.
Moltres isn’t impossible to answer by any means although it does have a very threatening STAB combo for sure. Moltres is also not the most useful pokemon in the builder, especially when you take competition like Mandibuzz into consideration. It is rare I find myself splashing Moltres onto something, I think it’s most prominent in a role as a wincon… which I think is how it got to be suspected in the first place bc it is certainly a very threatening wincon. The issue is that I think a really cool thing abt Moltres-G is that it’s a wincon that has a lot of potential to have a pretty amazing amount of utility as well, but the fact that it doesn’t have roost pretty much crushes this in most scenarios… especially bc it is a wincon that often requires multiple turns to get to being a real threat and having sufficient health is really important to be able to do that. Obviously it is still usable in those sort of niches on non HO teams w rest and all that bullshit, but it’s naturally pretty uncomfortable and hard to rationalize in terms of raw splashability, but could be tight and effective to build around.
Regardless of the outlook I have had so far in this post, I will be voting ban. This is primarily due to the fact that I honestly don’t think this thing provides anything positive to the tier. It’s just an annoying mon you can randomly lose to at preview, and I also think this is a sufficient justification to vote ban bc Mandibuzz has the utility and glue potential that Moltres-G has down pat w access to both U-Turn and Roost, so I don’t think we will be seeing a situation in the future where Moltres will find some unique niche as a glue mon on certain builds that Mandibuzz or Zarude cant already fulfill much better.
This mon is cheesy and dominant presence doesn’t seem to stretch much further than that, at least imho. But that is why I will be voting ban.
Usually I give a team w these rambling NP posts, I don’t have anything I feel too proud or strongly of that I used or built in general. But I do have smth I used i’m sure at least a few people would enjoy fiddling with in-game and in the builder for reqs specifically as it is meant to be for the ladder.
I got reqs a while ago with the webs team I posted in Sample Teams (that got overlooked with the last update for GMolt suspect), and I was just playing around with other alts and got "reqs" again on alts (not actual reqs alts, just random alts that happened to get the games played/GXE combo for reqs). Can't really say GMolt was any issue for this team, and it's actually quite funny when Scizor eats its Sitrus Berry.
Anyways, I will vote Do Not Ban on GMolt, since, to me, it doesn't fall under the Smogon critea for banning imo. It's not "broken", and I think most people can agree with that (most of the pro-ban arguments concede it's not inherently a broken mon). I also don't believe it's uncompetitive, but that's where people will probably disagree with me. Getting flinched or Hurricane confused sucks, but all hax sucks. I've lost more games from a Gyarados or a Mamoswine flinching my Skarmory than from GMolt flinching my Nihilego, and I actually think something like Gyarados is more difficult to overcome if it gets said flinch as you rarely have another answer once it's set up (usually it's either Mandibuzz or something like Skarmory) because there's nothing really that totally walls it like there is for GMolt (Diancie).
The last argument to ban is that it's unhealthy, and I guess I can see why people think that. It's not really fun to lose to it, and it's much more oppressive than most other things in the tier. But you can manage it, and people should stop minimizing good defensive answers like Diancie that can handle more than just GMolt (can handle KMolt, Hydreigon, Mence, etc.). Celebiii 's argument goes more into depth on GMolt answers so need to really recap it. It's going to get banned anyways because people don't want it around and don't want it constraining their builder when they try to "solve" the tier, but don't get carried away with that thinking or we'll end up banning half of UU by the end of the summer.
Here are my opinions on the current meta, if you like 'em then thank you but if not then oh well. Now let's hop into this!
Menaces to UU Society
Suspect #1 Amoonguss - Okay, this mon is seriously out here being a menace in another way. I'm not sure if it's broken or not, and it seems like most people are fine with it. It's not like this mon is the best attacker or the best wall, far from it. He's just out here scouting a preview on teams and your opponent. That regen flexibility + that decent bulk comes in clutch way too often. It is really hard to one shot this mon w/o a STAB super effective move, and honestly, that's all it needs to do: live. Because it's in those moments where you can say, "Okay, I know a portion of the set, bet. And I am starting to get an idea of what my opponent enjoys doing." And it just keeps doing that until it dies or when the game is over. At the same time, it's a little too good at supporting the team as a pivot w/coverage + spore. Like, sum players really be out here fishing for poison chances with sludge bomb and going in with the stun spore too sometimes. Like, "You thought I was done crippling your team with that spore? Naw, I got a stun spore for the next mon." This mon is really built different.
Okay, Amoonguss can be customized to take on different varying threats for the team. You can have it run assault vest for Keldeo, Hydreigon, special variants of Aegislash, Rotom-W, and Nihilego. Then you have rocky helmet to punish u-turn abusers, as well as, to let physical attackers know that they can't regen that chip damage like he can. Straight up savagery. There's also rare sets with heavy-duty boots that are good when paired up with another mon that's a knock absorber. And of course, black sludge. I swear, when I see black sludge, I immediately start thinking "This mon is carrying dual spores + foul play or synthesis + foul play." It's not outside the realm of reason to think that way either, as a lot of black sludge variants really do be running crazy tech.
Suspect #2 Scizor - Physical sweeper MVP. This menace is a cut above the rest. It seems like quite a few players are questioning if this mon is too good for the tier right out the gate, and honestly, I am on that hype train too. Like, Tom Hanks came to my house and said, "Wanna board the scizor hype express?" And I replied, "Bet." It's hard to one-shot this mon, it's mad flexible, and it just does not care about walls half the time. Choice Band, LO SD, Metal Coat + SD, Roost + U-Turn + Knock, HDB + Roost + U-Turn, there's a few SD sets w/bug bite, and even quick attack. Bruh, this mon has way too many viable sets already, and people really be out here going like "Give this mon a quick attack set." Which of course comes in handy against faster threats resisting bullet punch, like Rotom-W and Keldeo. Not only that but, this mon really fits on so many team archetypes and just puts in so much work at whatever it does.
This mon is such a menace that he traumatized dingbat, getting him to only say "sdbpknock". Bigfatmantis had to come in with a cresselia to save this man from the nightmare.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-622234 - Here we get to see Scizor set himself up for the sweep. First, knocking Rotom-Heat's HDB, then allowing Cobalion to wear itself down while he roosts and SDs. Doesn't care about any wall. Absolute disrespect.
In week 7 of UUPL X, Scizor came in with 31.25% usage and a 50% win streak. Week 8, the Sweeping Menace clocked in with the same usage but a 20% win rate. Now, it's easy to see that this mon is considered broken to some just because of the combo: bulk + priority + breaking power. So, Scizor might not be a ban lister in the future, but Scizor is definitely on my radar.
Suspect #3 Aegislash - How crafty is this mon? Straight up ridiculous. This mon is always teetering on being broken and being the glue of the tier. It's so good offensively and defensively. It has weaknesses like 4mss, weak ghost stab on the physical side (not sneak, shadow claw), and King's Shield doesn't protect Aegi from status like spore, stun spore, thunder wave, and wisp. And usually, people point out the factor of it being slow (outside of sneak) and having trouble sweeping with frail defenses once the ability activates. This mon is a straight up menace tho. Like, I swear, it has something for everyone; the user just has to be careful + creative in the builder. Don't think "What it can't beat, let the other team mates handle." Instead go like this "What the team can't beat, let it handle and then sum." Because that's how this mon operates best in the builder. It fits on every archetype outside of sun, it can go special or physically offensive and can go subtoxic SpDf or sub lure. This mon has the fade for everybody.
In tours, Aegislash is getting low usage yet it does get a super good win rate, week 7 - 80% and week 8 - 100%
I swear tho, Aegislash reminds me of Baki. This mon straight up allows himself to get locked in UUBL prison to beat down Staraptor so hard that he's no longer in the game. Dude be saying "I'm the strongest in the prison now!" Then, just walks out of jail like it was no big deal. Like bruh, this dude asserted so much dominance this entire gen.
Underrated Threats
Venusaur - This mon is crazy good under the sun. It's to the point where I actually hate it. It sets up on Chansey if it runs giga drain, throws weather balls at steel types, and out speeds the entire meta (outside of a couple scarfers). I hate this mon. It's not impossible to keep in check but it is very difficult. Darm + Venu is a damn near headache to keep up with though. Sure, it relies heavily on the sun, but it puts in a lot of work in the limited turns it gets.
Crawdaunt - Slow and frail yet, hits hard like a mach truck. A lot of slow, bulky offensive mons try to hit the 210 speed mark just to avoid dealing with this mon's strong STABs. Banded knock off hits walls way too hard, and having a CC in the back for Hydreigon, Zarude, and Cobalion is the tech. It's tough to get in without a slow u-turn/flip turn or a teleport, but a lot of the times in practice, its actually hard to keep it out. Its a threat that stays threatening throughout the game.
Fun Mons of the Week
Metagross - I really enjoyed using this mon with choice band. It hits very hard and has a colorful movepool that deals with top walls. Very bulky while outspeeding Scizor, Primarina, and Crawdaunt without max speed EVs. It also has priority in bullet punch for faster threats, which most don't resist outside of Cobalion, Moltres, Thundurus-Therian, and Keldeo. Still, it can live a hit from Cobalion and KO back with eq, rock slide Moltres on the switch, and it can live a hit and KO Thundurus-Therian with pure ease. Of course, it does have trouble Keldeo no matter what (unless you run Thunder Punch which can be good for Skarmory as well). It struggles a bit with 4MSS and being mid-speed tier, but if you're like vivalospride: webs are the answer.
Metagross @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt / Bullet Punch
- Rock Slide / Thunder Punch
- Earthquake
file:///C:/Users/james/Downloads/Gen8UU-2022-05-01-scizorpunisher-dragapultlvl.html - Just a casual replay. (Copy and paste in another tab, that should work.)
Necrozma - This mon has been in a ton of sample teams the past few metas and for good reasons: hits hard, good at setting up, and its bulky. Check out the sample team thread if you want to use it yourself.
So yeah, I was surprised Molt-G got banned yet, it made sense. It was the hax in combination with that power that pushed it over the edge for sure. No mon can do the same things Molt-G could do, but I have a feeling DD Gyarados will takes it's spot as number 1 best sweeper in the tier soon.
Hi - my thoughts on metagame and suspects right now:
In this post I argue three things:
1) Scizor is most deserving of a suspect test right now
2) There were issues in the logic of the Moltres Galarian suspect test that manifests themselves in...Registeel
3) Another Aegislash suspect test is acceptable but guidelines have to be crystal clear because Aegislash was already tested very recently 1) Scizor is most deserving of a suspect test right now and should be tested
There are two co-equally best sets for it right now: Swords Dance Roost Knock Off and Bullet Punch and the same set but with U-Turn over Swords Dance
While the most common set in most of April was 3 attack Roost, bulky Swords Dance is becoming more common and makes "checks" like Hippowdon and non SD/Taunt Cobalion set up fodder
Knock Off is critical on the two best Scizor sets - it completely cripples Salamence and Moltres because Stealth Rock is very easy to maintain in UU, very few of the Defoggers (including Salamence/Moltres) can keep Rocks off the common setters (Chansey, Hippowdon and Nihilego)
Thus, Scizor can easily outlast it checks and counters
The other critical note about Scizor is that it finds extremely easy set up opportunities in UU, as Nihilego, Tangrowth, Chansey, Toxic SR Hippowdon, Zarude, and Zygarde (if Scizor is max defense) are all extremely common on all builds in UU. Scizor almost always has many openings throughout the game.
This doesn't even begin to touch on the other two main sets: offensive SD which fits on HO and can destroy checks like Foul Play Amoonguss with DWB and Choice Band which immediately pressures many Slowking builds
Replay: pokemonisfun vs onarceus, UULT, average rating 1660+: We live in a Sciziety. Look how easily Scizor outlives it's so called counter Salamence because Salamence cannot keep rocks off of Hippowdon and cannot keep it's HDB versus Scizor. Look how many opportunities Scizor gets to set up - vs Hippo. This is the classic Scizor being broken.
2) There is an issue with using the logic of "x isn't broken but the tier is in a poor building state so we will ban this threat anyways"
I'm talking about the logic espoused in this post:
Regardless of the outlook I have had so far in this post, I will be voting ban. This is primarily due to the fact that I honestly don’t think this thing provides anything positive to the tier. It’s just an annoying mon you can randomly lose to at preview, and I also think this is a sufficient justification to vote ban bc Mandibuzz has the utility and glue potential that Moltres-G has down pat w access to both U-Turn and Roost, so I don’t think we will be seeing a situation in the future where Moltres will find some unique niche as a glue mon on certain builds that Mandibuzz or Zarude cant already fulfill much better.
There's nothing wrong in terms of Smogon tiering philosophy - Smogon tiering philosophy says you ban either broken threats (too strong) or unhealthy threats (makes metagame worse) and Vivalospride was clearly paying respect to the unhealthy threat aspect
But two things to keep in mind:
Smogon philosophy says we use this reasoning as a last resort. We should try to justify threats as broken first.
As a corollary to this statement, I think that means we should only ban unhealthy things after we ban broken things. So if we ban Goltres because it's unhealthy, that implies nothing else in the tier is broken (like Aegislash, who was already deemed do not banned by The People)
Which brings a separate point: what about Registeel?
Do you think the tier is still hard/unhealthy to build in? If so, we should still be tiering with this mindset/banning things.
So why wouldn't we ban something like Registeel? Defensively, it's helpful in the tier but not even UU by usage/not seen as necessary to beat anything, yes it beats Nihilego but we have plenty of Nihilego checks and counters in this tier, Registeel does not provide a crucial building niche in the tier and nobody denies that
What people did, incorrectly, deny, for months is that Registeel is a threat. UULT has proven now it is a legitimate threat that forces you to run Ghosts or niche ways to beat it like random Taunts. Ghost types are not normally seen as building necessities (like Knock Off, SR, Volt Immunity, Dark/Ghost immunity, Steel type are often seen as building necessities on all styles bar HO).
Thus, Registeel is doing exactly what Vivalospride said Goltres is doing - not providing anything positive to the tier in terms of building while randomly beating people
If we're being logically consistent and we still think the tier is tough to build in, we should seriously consider suspecting Registeel.
I personally disagree with testing Registeel because I disagree with Viv's logic in his original post, even though I admit I used it to make my own vote, it was too tempting but wrong to ban Goltres to help building.
3) Another Aegislash test is OK but we need to be crystal clear on why
Obviously Aegislash was just Do Not Banned by a public suspect test and normally, it would be wrong to keep testing Pokemon until a certain result is achieved
However, the simple fact is, Aegislash has certainly gotten better with Goltres being gone (unclear though about if Hippo/Scizor makes it better or worse) and if the metagame changes, we have to reevaluate. But since another suspect test would go against the will of the voters so to speak, we should emphasize the following:
What was the change in the metagame that means another test should be given? How big was this change?
Does the voting % of the initial test factor into this decision to give another test?
Is it fair to give Aegislash ANOTHER test after a hypothetical "retest" if there is another drop that makes Aegislash more manageable?
Should the voting % to ban be changed because Aegislash
I'm not saying I have the answers to these questions (and I'm not saying that I'd answer them favorably to have another Aegislash test, I do not think testing Aegislash again is correct personally) but i think it would be fair for our leader to give them answers if we do another vote after we already reached a decision
(that got overlooked with the last update for GMolt suspect), and I was just playing around with other alts and got "reqs" again on alts (not actual reqs alts, just random alts that happened to get the games played/GXE combo for reqs). Can't really say GMolt was any issue for this team, and it's actually quite funny when Scizor eats its Sitrus Berry.
