np: SS UU Stage 12.1 - Fallen Kingdom

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Indigo Plateau

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:ss/aegislash::ss/aegislash-blade:
Hey everyone, the UU council has been closely monitoring the tier following the Galarian Moltres test and has decided it’s time to suspect Aegislash (again).

Although it’s only been a few months since it was last suspected, Aegislash has continued to see high usage and success in UU. Anyone who plays the tier knows that Aegislash is the king of versatility. It can run a plethora of sets very efficiently and has proven this time and time again by varying which set it most commonly runs depending on metagame trends. We’ve seen King’s Shield + Toxic + 2 attacks been a staple during its stay, SubToxic, Choice Band, Choice Specs, and multiple setup variants. So what’s changed for it to be put on the chopping block again?

UU has been notorious for having to account for a lot of things in the builder. Aegislash lost one of its best counters in Galarian Moltres in the most recent suspect test, which was one of the best Ghost-resistant status absorbers in the tier. Because of this, SubToxic has started to see a resurgence in usage and has proved to be a headache to account for. Even should-be checks like Jungle Healing Zarude can be pressured throughout the game and lose to this set or to a potential Close Combat while scouting. King’s Shield lowering attack makes Pokemon like Zarude and Mandibuzz be shakier as checks, especially against the SubTox set which can use Foul Play users such as Mandibuzz and Amoonguss as Substitute bait. The two most recent shifts in Hippowdon and Scizor have also made the tier a friendlier environment for Aegislash to thrive in due to its now slower nature. Sturdy Ghost resists aren’t as popular or effective as they were before shifts and the most recent suspect test.

Despite all its strengths, Aegislash still suffers from what has always held it back. Its speed is sufficient to run slower walls and breakers but still leaves it vulnerable to the plethora of faster, hard-hitting Pokemon UU has to offer, making it often rely on King’s Shield to absorb hits. Most of the top ranked Pokemon in the tier, such as Excadrill, Salamence, and Zarude, to name a few, can hit it for super effective damage and/or heal its attacks when it’s forced to revert to shield form. Even Pokemon that it would normally counter such as Nihilego can fit moves like Knock Off to cripple it. In spite of all of this, the UU council has pretty much unanimously decided it’s a fitting time to suspect it again, so you know the drill:

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430


Other than that, the test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UU12A (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UU12A Stinky Adam to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.

Participants will have until Sunday, June 5th at 7:00 PM GMT -5 to meet voting requirements and post in the Alt Identification Thread. PLEASE DO NOT POST YOUR CONFIRMED SUSPECT RESULTS HERE - there is a dedicated thread for identifying your suspect results. Happy laddering!

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The main role of Galarian Moltres wasn't Aegislash check. I had seen few times resttalk gmolt when subtox Aegi was very popular. Gmolt is used as a Double Dance Sweeper on Hyper offence and it was rare to be used outside of hyper offence. 2 drops scizor and hippowdon are not kind to Aegi so its not broken for almost standard BO- balance teams. Obviously DNB.
 
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justdrew

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I’m writing this on my phone so apologies in advance. I think the fact that this Pokémon has been suspected twice speaks volumes. I think it was bannable last time and it’s bannable now. I don’t really want to restate things I or others have said so I’m just going to share a replay from the semifinals of UU Open.

Luthier vs bb skarm

Quite literally the first 28 turns of this battle are Aegislash freely setting up a sub, stalling Amoonguss out of Foul Play, landing a Toxic on Mandi, and hitting Zygy with Shadow Ball, while still maintaining a good amount of health. Literally as a lead it accomplishes so many key plays such as putting Mandi on a timer and crippling Zygarde so it can’t make any threatening switch ins on attacks. This was done at the highest level of play, in the actual biggest UU tournament.

A well played Aegislash is the single most threatening thing in this tier. And frankly most Aegislash are well played because it isn’t a weapon of the ladder noob. They use Pokémon like Darm and Conk which are strong as hell but they are punchers. They hit you hard but you know what you’re going to be hit with at team preview. Aegislash is a ninja that could be one of like 8 things and you have no way to guess right when making a switch and can really be punished for that. I don’t think this an obvious do not ban and it isn’t an obvious ban I suppose for reasons like Cobalion and anything with a fighting move being very strong when the best (and honestly only viable) fighting immunity is removed from the tier.

I do think very certainly that this Pokémon deserves a ban and my mind is set. I look forward to more replies to this thread!
 
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I'm gonna add to what Drew said and state that even answers to some sets can be overwhelmed, case in point the Umbry V Luthier Open Finals where Umbry's SubTox Aegislash won out against a Zarude because it bled out the Jungle Healing PP. Luthier's team already looked bad into mixed sets but at least SubTox would be better if he managed his PP better to begin with right? That only really works if he guessed right off the bat that it was SubTox and even then it was an uphill battle anyways between also having to manage the Jungle Healing PP around the Slowking and the inevitable chip damage he was going to sustain.

Also about the point of Scizor and Hippowdon being checks, yes they aren't exactly the greatest things for aegi to deal with but they aren't really the glue that you want to rely, on its more like trying to patch a gaping hole with scotch tape. No Hippowdon user wants to let it get toxic'd and no Scizor enjoys seeing Shadow Ball's SpDef drop effect kick in meaning its not a good switch-in without significant investment. We literally have no true counters to this thing, RestTalk Gmolt was the closest thing which was not even popular at the time and was prone to inconsistency and abuse while asleep. It shows how Gmolt didn't really detract from how busted Aegislash was to begin with, and how ban worthy it was from the last test.

TLDR: I was for letting aegi stay before but after feeling and seeing how much of a stranglehold it has over team building and in game scenarios, I don't think its worth keeping it in the tier. It should be banned.
 
Kind of have mixed feelings here. Aegislash is undoubtedly really good, but it's sheer versatility and surprise factor is probably better than any one individual set. It's not a mon I run into often and think that it gives me a lot of problems, but the issue is that, in a tier notorious for having many threats you need to cover for, Aegi is essentially 4/5 threats in one. I don't think it's the most splashable mon in the tier (*cough* scizor) but you're often necessitated to running multiple checks to its different sets in one team, because they're all very viable. It also basically forces most teams to have a dark mon (or Chansey ig), and while Zydog also sort of does that a bit with grasses, the difference is that zydog has only one viable set, while Aegislash has many that can screw you over if you don't account for all of them. So even though it's not always going to be an amazing mon in every matchup, I don't really like what it does for the tier here -- its individual sets aren't broken, but more of its unpredictability. And even though you can often piece together what that set is, if you get that prediction wrong (and a prediction is inherently just an educated guess) you can potentially be set on the back foot for the rest of the game. Leaning towards ban here. I'm open to changing my mind and I'll be reading everyone's thoughts, but realistically there's no way it's not getting banned here lol everyone hates it
 

KM

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The main role of Galarian Moltres wasn't Aegislash check. I had seen few times resttalk gmolt when subtox Aegi was very popular. Gmolt is used as a Double Dance Sweeper on Hyper offence and it was rare to be used outside of hyper offence. 2 drops scizor and hippowdon are not kind to Aegi so its not broken for almost standard BO- balance teams. Obviously DNB.
your experience seeing gmolt isn't reflective of the actual state of the tier -- defensive resttalk gmolt accounted for over a quarter of the sets used in raw high level usage stats and was higher in tournament play. defensive gmolt was unequivocally the best check to most aegislash sets, and its loss from the tier is strictly a buff to aegislash, no matter how you cut it. regardless of its "main role", Gmolt (even offensive variants!) effectively limited aegislash and the sets it could viably run.

neither scizor nor hippowdon are anything close to drops that strictly make aegi worse. only the rare SpD scizor can check some forms of aegislash bar an SpD drop, and hippowdon's effectiveness against aegislash varies from weak check (gets toxic'd, loses to SpD drop, loses over time) to outright setup bait (balloon SD on HO, weakness policy).
 
I think this has to be less about whether or not Aegislash is banworthy and more about what are we doing with the suspect process? Aegislash was suspected like what, 6 weeks ago? And losing GMolt is a two-way street - yeah it was a good Aegi check, but people wanted GMolt gone because it suffocated their building process so they couldn't cover all of the threats like Aegislash. Now you don't have that problem anymore, so it's easier to actually deal with Aegislash. In addition to Scizor + Hippo also helping to deal with the good Aegislash sets - not perfect answers but also not bad ones. I don't see how their arrival has made Aegislash even better when they can both threaten it (again not perfectly, but to say they are making it more Aegi friendly doesn't seem to be true). I don't see anything that shows Aegislash is significantly more problematic than it was before, which I think should probably the case if we are going to ask for a re-do here of a suspect.

So then my questions is, what is the suspect process for really if we are going to just run another suspect of the exact same mon because we didn't like the outcome/results or changed our minds? Are there guidelines somewhere? No survey or anything either - just a straight decision to immediately hold the suspect? I understand nobody is obligated to follow any kind of guidelines or rules but this seems like a bit of an abuse of discretion to hold this suspect - especially when I saw 0 posts in the NP Thread about Aegislash being very concerning post-suspect and actually saw more about Scizor maybe needing a suspect (I actually agree that Scizor probably should get suspected but maybe not banned, idk yet). I've also noticed that a lot of the pro-ban posts are the same people that were pro-ban before - is there anyone that was anti-ban before that is pro-ban now? It's not a rhetorical question, I'd be very curious to hear from those individuals on what they feel has changed, as that may give a better perspective on this.

Also I don't understand how King's Shield makes Mandibuzz a bad check - Taunt Mandibuzz is a near perfect check to all the good Aegi sets except Specs, but Specs is easy to deal with once its revealed. I think that people are just kind of fed up with Aegislash and don't want it in the meta, which I guess it's fine, but let's not go about making exaggerated arguments about how the meta has transformed into an Aegislash madhouse. Will vote DNB for sure.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
In this post, I do two things.

First, I evaluate the metagame reasons why we have this test. I find metagame reasons provided in the OP are incredibly weak or misleading - Rest Talk Goltres was indeed rare and the tier did not particularly slow down nor did Ghost resists become significantly worse.

Second, I provide an alternate explanation of why we are doing this test now and why I think the council is making a terrible decision in having this test. I claim that council simply wanted another bite at the apple so to speak and change a decision they now firmly disagree with. While it is okay and even desirable to correct mistakes, the council should first at least argue the previous test had a mistaken outcome instead of couch their argument in terms of metagame changes.

I have not yet decided how to vote should I get reqs.

Metagame reasons why we have this test

I think it's relatively uncontroversial to say that giving a Pokemon more than one suspect test in a short period of time needs extra justification.

The extra justification is the tier changed. In what way? See what IP writes:

Hey everyone, the UU council has been closely monitoring the tier following the Galarian Moltres test and has decided it’s time to suspect Aegislash (again).

Although it’s only been a few months since it was last suspected, Aegislash has continued to see high usage and success in UU. Anyone who plays the tier knows that Aegislash is the king of versatility. It can run a plethora of sets very efficiently and has proven this time and time again by varying which set it most commonly runs depending on metagame trends. We’ve seen King’s Shield + Toxic + 2 attacks been a staple during its stay, SubToxic, Choice Band, Choice Specs, and multiple setup variants. So what’s changed for it to be put on the chopping block again?

UU has been notorious for having to account for a lot of things in the builder. Aegislash lost one of its best counters in Galarian Moltres in the most recent suspect test, which was one of the best Ghost-resistant status absorbers in the tier. Because of this, SubToxic has started to see a resurgence in usage and has proved to be a headache to account for. Even should-be checks like Jungle Healing Zarude can be pressured throughout the game and lose to this set or to a potential Close Combat while scouting. King’s Shield lowering attack makes Pokemon like Zarude and Mandibuzz be shakier as checks, especially against the SubTox set which can use Foul Play users such as Mandibuzz and Amoonguss as Substitute bait. The two most recent shifts in Hippowdon and Scizor have also made the tier a friendlier environment for Aegislash to thrive in due to its now slower nature. Sturdy Ghost resists aren’t as popular or effective as they were before shifts and the most recent suspect test.

Despite all its strengths, Aegislash still suffers from what has always held it back. Its speed is sufficient to run slower walls and breakers but still leaves it vulnerable to the plethora of faster, hard-hitting Pokemon UU has to offer, making it often rely on King’s Shield to absorb hits. Most of the top ranked Pokemon in the tier, such as Excadrill, Salamence, and Zarude, to name a few, can hit it for super effective damage and/or heal its attacks when it’s forced to revert to shield form. Even Pokemon that it would normally counter such as Nihilego can fit moves like Knock Off to cripple it. In spite of all of this, the UU council has pretty much unanimously decided it’s a fitting time to suspect it again, so you know the drill:
So in short, I identify in red bold text above three things:

1) The loss of Galarian Moltres which countered Aegislash
2) Hippowdon and Scizor making the tier slower
3) Sturdy ghost resists being lowered in viability

Well, 1) is obviously true but I find posts like KM's here jarring:

your experience seeing gmolt isn't reflective of the actual state of the tier -- defensive resttalk gmolt accounted for over a quarter of the sets used in raw high level usage stats and was higher in tournament play. defensive gmolt was unequivocally the best check to most aegislash sets, and its loss from the tier is strictly a buff to aegislash, no matter how you cut it. regardless of its "main role", Gmolt (even offensive variants!) effectively limited aegislash and the sets it could viably run.
I mean Udongirl says Rest Talk Goltres is rare but then KM says their experience is not reflective of the tier and says "over a quarter" of sets used in high level usage stats were rest talk.

This is factually incorrect as noted here: https://www.smogon.com/stats/2022-04/moveset/gen8uu-1760.txt - high level stats on the ladder show only 19% used Rest and further, 9% used Chesto Berry so basically only 10% could have been Rest Talk.

Not to mention, even if KM was correct, well, all Udongirl did was say it was rare and even 25-30% usage is arguably rare.

So yes, I agree Goltres being banned made Aegislash better. But Rest Talk Goltres was the only reliable set to switch in anyways (and Aegislash can beat it still with +2 Close Combat and +2 Shadow Sneak unless Goltres ev'd for that). And it was, as Udongirl notes, rare. It was abundantly clear Goltres' best and most dangerous set was boosting sets, not Rest Talk.

2) and 3) are more difficult claims to address but we have another source that can tell us the answer: viability rankings.

I don't really see how 2) and 3) are even true based on this, not to mention I don't see how 2) benefits Aegislash (Aegislash is such a slow offensive threat, that if the metagame gets slower, that's not necessarily helpful as it's still slower than say Nidoqueen which popped up in the VR).

For 3), yes Zarude and Krook became worse but Hydreigon became better, so on balance, it's not a significant shift in Ghost resist viability. And it's not like Zarude is suddenly a bad Pokemon - it was still considered top tier at A+!

For 2), I just don't see how the tier is slower with Raikou, Crobat and Keldeo all increasing in viability apparently while the only fast mons that got worse were Salazzle and Azelf.

I myself am not decided yet on whether Aegislash is broken. But I am decided that this evidence strongly suggests nothing has significantly changed for Aegislash since it was last voted Do not ban.

Alternate explanation


It just doesn't add up that we have another test so soon. Just one rare counter being gone is enough to get another test? Take the corollary to that statement.

Does anyone seriously think if we had an Aegislash counter appear in UU after Aegislash possibly gets banned, we'd do a third test in quick succession to bring him back?

That's ridiculous and I think it's perfectly clear nobody would accept that. But this isn't even a hypothetical - specially defensive Rest Primarina is a solid check to the most dangerous Sub Toxic and Toxic + 2 Attack Aegislashes and has been rising in usage (April stats vs March stats). Are you willing to do a third test if it keeps rising in usage because now suddenly we have a bit better counterplay to Aegislash?

To me, it's clear the council thought the test outcome was wrong from the outset and is using Goltres leaving as an excuse to give Aegislash another test.

I think this because there are so many posts of council members on Discord saying either they didn't even know who the Aegislash ban voters were and that Aegislash should have been banned the whole time even before Goltres was axed. Of course you're entitled to your opinion and you should even share it. But you're going to make me very skeptical when you've been saying for weeks, with Goltres here, Aegislash should be banned, and then Goltres gets banned, and now we have to test Aegislash again.

Moreover, I get that Discord is an informal environment and you don't seriously think of the player base as sheep to herd. But you what do you expect the public who reads your messages, who are not your friends, to think when they see these messages.

To be clear, I am not against giving recently tested Pokemon another test, but I would have wanted us to be transparent about it.

Just say you thought Aegislash really should have been banned the first time, it's clear public sentiment has shifted (well, it could have been clear if the council created a survey), and that the council regrets it wasn't more active the first time.

To be honest, I still would disagree with giving Aegislash another test if that was the case, bar supermajorities of 70%+ favoring retests.

But I'd at least know what's going on.

Now the council has set us up where many in the public, or at least me personally, feels sucker punched and that the suspect process feels ever more tarnished.

Overall...

If you truly believe your metagame reasons are why we have this test, I have no qualm with you, although I explained in the first section why I disagree.

If you think Aegislash should have been banned the last time and acknowledge you want a second bite at the apple to help the metagame, I think this is terribly flawed on procedure but at least appreciate the honesty.

If you are simply using Goltres as an excuse to suspect Aegislash, I think you're abusing your levers of power and I am profoundly disappointed in this tiering decision.
 

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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And losing GMolt is a two-way street - yeah it was a good Aegi check, but people wanted GMolt gone because it suffocated their building process so they couldn't cover all of the threats like Aegislash. Now you don't have that problem anymore, so it's easier to actually deal with Aegislash. In addition to Scizor + Hippo also helping to deal with the good Aegislash sets - not perfect answers but also not bad ones. I don't see how their arrival has made Aegislash even better when they can both threaten it (again not perfectly, but to say they are making it more Aegi friendly doesn't seem to be true)
So the first bit of logic you use here is horribly flawed and it really doesn't take much more than like... five seconds of thinking to figure out why. Influential pokemon is gone -> new threats rise to the top & things that were previously kept down become stronger -> some things become harder to account for and others become easier. Saying "less threats in the tier = aegi fine lol gg" is just not remotely accurate, and the fact that you claim this despite knowing better is honestly a bit concerning.

Anyway, @ Scizor and Hippo, neither are good Aegi checks at all (they both lose very handily to what most consider to be the most broken set, I will find you replays of this if you don't feel like opening the damage calculator). They also knocked down the viability of other checks severely. For example:

- Hippowdon being an extremely common Stealth Rock setter that Mandibuzz can't deal with = Mandibuzz is automatically a little worse. Bonus points for the other Pokemon that Mandibuzz checks (Excadrill, Zarude, Azelf, etc.) getting worse as a result of Scizor, Hippo, or their reflective meta shifts
- Scizor being an extremely common and defining presence that completely nullifies Chansey's existence has made things very hard for what was previously the most common (and realistically only common) Ghost immunity

Like, you don't need to stretch to figure out why these things are happening. Where you do need to stretch, though, is when you get to things like:

Taunt Mandibuzz
This has seen absolutely zero usage and if you're citing it as Aegislash counterplay you're really only weakening your argument. Bonus points for this not even beating Aegislash in anything other than a pure 1v1.

So then my questions is, what is the suspect process for really if we are going to just run another suspect of the exact same mon because we didn't like the outcome/results or changed our minds? Are there guidelines somewhere? No survey or anything either - just a straight decision to immediately hold the suspect?
The point of the suspect process is to make it so that tiers don't suck. Nothing more. Whatever formality is being attached to it is in each individual's head really; I don't particularly like that we're suspect testing a Pokemon that was already voted DNB but there is no reason we can't following a significant shift in the tier, and if you're going to tell me that the tier hasn't significantly changed then you are lying both to yourself and to me.
If we feel we've changed our minds (the community seems like they collectively have, contrary to what you've seen - given I've seen a massive uptick in people asking for an Aegislash ban in the UU discord despite personally having less activity there than before, a large amount of support for this test, and a unanimous council vote) then we are entirely within our rights to try to make this tier better. That is all that's happening.

I've also noticed that a lot of the pro-ban posts are the same people that were pro-ban before - is there anyone that was anti-ban before that is pro-ban now? It's not a rhetorical question, I'd be very curious to hear from those individuals on what they feel has changed, as that may give a better perspective on this.
Tagging three that I know of - umbry, Lyss, hariyana grande - for thoughts. All voted DNB last time and are now pro-ban.


To move on to pif's post:

This is factually incorrect as noted here: https://www.smogon.com/stats/2022-04/moveset/gen8uu-1760.txt - high level stats on the ladder show only 19% used Rest and further, 9% used Chesto Berry so basically only 10% could have been Rest Talk.
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2022-03/moveset/gen8uu-1760.txt

This is what KM was citing. One single month of data is not accurate, for him or for you.

For 3), yes Zarude and Krook became worse but Hydreigon became better, so on balance, it's not a significant shift in Ghost resist viability. And it's not like Zarude is suddenly a bad Pokemon - it was still considered top tier at A+!
...Except it is, because a) Zarude is the only one that actually beats the set most commonly seen as broken (SubTox) and it doesn't even do it consistently as you can see. The most common Hydreigon sets (over 60% of them) are Choice-locked - not a good way to deal with a Pokemon that can scout exactly what you're going for - and most of them also don't run Roost (it's only on 35% of Hydreigons over the past two months, trending downwards) meaning you're losing a long game very quickly against a Pokemon notorious for lasting a very long time. You also failed to note Chansey, a common countermeasure to SubTox, falling in viability. And other Pokemon like Crobat and Cobalion, which are completely walled by Aegislash, rising in popularity to account for the numerous other threats this tier has.

For 2), I just don't see how the tier is slower with Raikou, Crobat and Keldeo all increasing in viability apparently while the only fast mons that got worse were Salazzle and Azelf.
I understand what you mean here and I think IP's wording could've been better. Fast Pokemon in general aren't necessarily worse but you see less of them on a team. A lot of teams right now will have 4-5 slow Pokemon with a speed control option tacked on because a lot of our really, really good Pokemon (Scizor, Hippo, Slowking, Prim, Aegi...) are just... slow, lol. The average pace has slowed down, not the peak, and it's not because the fast Pokemon are worse - it's just that the slow ones are better.

I have been writing for far too long so I'm going to address the final bit since that's the important one

Overall...

If you truly believe your metagame reasons are why we have this test, I have no qualm with you, although I explained in the first section why I disagree.

If you think Aegislash should have been banned the last time and acknowledge you want a second bite at the apple to help the metagame, I think this is terribly flawed on procedure but at least appreciate the honesty.

If you are simply using Goltres as an excuse to suspect Aegislash, I think you're abusing your levers of power and I am profoundly disappointed in this tiering decision.
It is, for most council members, a combination of the first two points. The metagame has genuinely gotten even more hostile for Aegislash answers (if you can even call them that) and kinder to Aegislash itself, which almost everyone I've talked to agrees with but it is fine that you disagree. The second point of yours is very flawed logic, though - it's not that we want to try again just because we're upset with the first result. The council wasn't even unanimous the first time around. We are listening to community outcry:



and we're acknowledging that some people have changed their minds. I'm sorry if you disagree but on principle the logic makes perfect sense to most of us. You can even scroll up in this very thread to see it.
 

Moutemoute

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So then my questions is, what is the suspect process for really if we are going to just run another suspect of the exact same mon because we didn't like the outcome/results or changed our minds? Are there guidelines somewhere? No survey or anything either - just a straight decision to immediately hold the suspect? I understand nobody is obligated to follow any kind of guidelines or rules but this seems like a bit of an abuse of discretion to hold this suspect - especially when I saw 0 posts in the NP Thread about Aegislash being very concerning post-suspect and actually saw more about Scizor maybe needing a suspect (I actually agree that Scizor probably should get suspected but maybe not banned, idk yet). I've also noticed that a lot of the pro-ban posts are the same people that were pro-ban before - is there anyone that was anti-ban before that is pro-ban now? It's not a rhetorical question, I'd be very curious to hear from those individuals on what they feel has changed, as that may give a better perspective on this.
Same logic can be applied to what you said. You voted hard DNB last time, you don't want to take the risk to see this outcome change, thus complaining about what is done right now. Survey has never been an obligation for the council or tiers leaders. It's just a way to take the heat on X or Y topic if the council is not fully convinced on something / splited on what we should do. Also not seeing any post related on a Pokemon in the NP thread doesn't mean everything is great in a perfect world (well.. tier in this case). NP thread have been quite deserted for a while now outside of suspect test, people are talking way more in the Discord than Smogon. Also there is some people who thought back in the day that Aegislash wasn't ban worthy and are willing to ban it this time : umbry and Lyss for instance. There was also people who didn't vote during the last suspect people they weren't sure about it like me. At that time, I was against any suspect of Aegislash and quite recently, I was still there on the fence of suspecting it because I thought this wasn't "fair" for the community who voted to keep Aegislash in the tier like 2 months ago.

However, I now trully think that Aegislash is the most despicable Pokemon in the tier. It's the single most versatile Pokemon that we have and it's able to fit in any archetype from Stall/Semi-Stall with SubShield + Toxic or Shield CC Shadow Ball Toxic sets to HO with Swords Dance sets which can be customize at wish. Aegislash is also one of the Pokémon who can run the most different spreads in the tier and can choose to outspeed basically what it wants based on the team is on. I see you mentionned Taunt Mandibuzz BigFatMantis (kinda unset btw, whatever) as a way to deal with but if you run into a speedy Shield + Toxic set Aegislash, then you're pretty much fucked if you're not 220 speed Mandibuzz because it can just Sub on your Mandibuzz's switch and then proceed to Toxic it and it's ggwp or just raw Toxic on your switch predicting Mandibuzz and in this case, speed doesn't even matters. Same applies to Hippowdon and Scizor who can be beaten quite easily by Specs Aegislash or an offensive variant of (Sub)Shield + Toxic. I mean we even recently saw a game where a SubShield + Toxic Aegislash managed to beat in the long run a HDB Zarude with Jungle Healing. And it wasn't some random game on the ladder betweeen two 1100 Elo players but one match of the UU Open 3 player's final. I mean, Zarude got PP Stalled and didn't have left any Jungle Healing nor Darkest Lariat. How is that even suppose to happen when this set of Zarude is supposed to be the hardest counter to non-CC variant of Toxic Aegislash.

Unlike what pokemonisfun is thinking, I trully don't think we (as the council) decided to make this new Aegislash suspect because we thoughts the previous outcome was wrong. Maybe that's true for some people or some council members but this wasn't the reason that make us agree that Aegislash should be suspected once again. Aegislash is absolutely nuts right now and is able to handle way too much things on both offensive and defensive spectrum, yet people are thinking nothing changed since Moltres-Galar ban + Hippowdon/Scizor shifts. This Pokemon has been an issue for the tier since it arrived. It has always been a hot topic and the most controvertial Pokemon in the tier (getting the most council votes and public suspect test even before this one if I'm not mistaken). There was a couple of council members that were against a ban of Aegislash 2 months ago and now are in favor of it, I mentionned two of them above, didn't mentionned myself because I didn't vote last time (in fact, I never voted during the two previous Aegislash public suspect test we got). This will changed for this suspect, trust me, even if I have to do 10k games to reach it, I'll vote ban on Aegislash because it's obvious that it's an issue for the tier and the way we're building teams. Now my issue is that under the guise of what seems good intensions, I'm seeing two post saying shits about what is happening and using only the argument "council members didn't get what they want last time so we're getting a new aegislash suspect" insinuating that we would try to suspect Aegislash till it's banned. Using pathos to shame the council because of its decision looks quite questionnable in my opinion, especially since it was really easy to find people who voted DNB / were against a ban last time but are in favor of it this time. There wasn't any argument in above posts showing why Aegislash isn't suspect worthy, it was just some hazing against the decision on its own which is.. quite meh.

All in all, I advise every single player who's reading this to look at high Elo replays / tournament replays to see how great and insane Aegislash can be even vs what are supposed to be its checks. I also ask people to try to get their reqs to vote but also to give their own thoughts on Aegislash. I really would like to see good and honest arguments against Aegislash ban and not some really flawed one.
 

Adaam

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First I will address whether or not Aegislash is broken, then I will address concerns regarding a second suspect test.

Yes, it is. Fantastic typing, variety of sets with different checks, the best base stats in the tier (including both forms), and King's Shield interactions make Aegislash nightmarish to account for in play and in the builder.

The fundamental sets revolve around King's Shield + Toxic + Shadow Ball. The most common fillers are either Substitute, which abuses and snowballs off of many tier staples (Slowking, Cobalion, Amoonguss, Skarmory, Tang after a drop, a Secret Sword locked Keldeo, non-Taunt Mandibuzz, Body Slam locked Diggersby, and Conkeldurr), or Close Combat to KO most of our Dark-types. Shadow Ball and Toxic alone cover almost everything, to be safe you need a sturdy ghost resist that is either Toxic immune or has ways to heal it. Satisfying these conditions are Jungle Healing Zarude, Chansey (which stalemates at best against SubTox), SpDef Celesteela, and...that's it. Umbreon might work, but its niche, Foul Play can't break sub, and Heal Bell is only 8 PP. The banning of G-Molt, while admittedly it most certainly was not the sole reason Aegi was "balanced" before, reduced the number of Toxic checks from 4 to 3. Aegislash can wear down entire teams on it's own, and shrugs off any chip by gaining it all back with Leftovers via King's Shield and forced switches.

UU open semis - An example on why Scarf Zarude is often mocked as a set. Choice locked Dark-types get abused by Aegislash rather than checking it. It's compounded by the attack drop Zarude suffers from Lariat. Once Aegislash gets a free sub, which it does against again common Pokemon in Slowking + Cobalion, Aegislash is free to break down an entire team.

UU Open semifinals - Aegislash does not do much damage on its own, but it's an example of potential snowballs. A free Sub early on gives chip on both Nihilego and Amoonguss. The threat of Sub later also forced Togekiss to stay in and take further Toxic damage. Nothing crazy in this replay though.

UU open finals - The infamous replay where Sub Aegi outlasts an entire Zarude. The benefit of hindsight allows you to pinpoint where it could have died, but it didn't. Lariat and Jungle Healing PP is mid and subject to stalling. Zarude has to correctly Jungle Heal on King's Shield turns early on, because Close Combat Aegislash outright wins if it takes the attack drop. King's Shield is such a brainless, risk-free move and tilts a lot of these small interactions heavily in Aegislash favors. Even when a check is in, you have the option to minimize momentum loss by fishing for an attack drop.

Turns 86-94 is an excellent example of this. Again, a free sub obtained on Crobat + Zarude already being poisoned gives umbry a hilarious sequence where Zarude comes out at -3 attack and still Toxiced. I'm not sure what Luthier could have done besides third-eyeing every single Toxic turn and King's shield turn.

UU Trio Tour - The mere existence of Amoonguss is enough for Aegislash to do its thing. SubToxic beats down many Amoonguss teams particularly because of how poorly Zarude synergizes with it. The options are now either Chansey or Celesteela, to pair with it, showcasing its stranglehold on the tier's building.

The above only touch SubToxic. I briefly mentioned Close Combat sets, and now I will elaborate more. Mixed sets simply tell our Dark/Normal types to fuck off. None of them can OHKO Aegislash (besides Diggersby, which is often Choice locked), and all of them take massive damage from Close Combat. Hydreigon, for example, without Specs, doesn't come close to KOing it. This means revenging a Hydreigon with a healthy Aegislash is a really good play. You need a second check to find that chip damage on Aegislash before sending in your Dark type against it. The same thing applies to Zarude. Lariat on King's Shield? Now you're doing <50% and taking 65-75% back.

What else is there? Seriously, nothing is reliable against even it's most common sets. Throwing in Specs, SD, and even the rare Air Balloon adds further complexity. How does one reasonably scout for all these possibilities, especially early on? If Aegislash comes in on Slowking, do you switch in your Dark type and risk dying to CC/Specs? Teleport and get Toxiced/Subbed on? Counterplay is few and far between, so Aegislash is broken.


There are reasonable concerns with how soon this test is with respect to the last one. I agree with pokemonisfun in that if it was broken after we banned Moltres, it was broken then, and this just can seem like a scapegoat. There are more differences than that, however. Scizor's drop gave Chansey it's largest hit in viability since the advent of SD KS Aegislash. Amoonguss is becoming the most popular Grass-type, further leaning into SubToxic dominance. Sprinkling on the G-Molt ban, which as KM pointed out, is an objective buff regardless of Rest G-Molt's ubiquity, pushed Aegislash even farther up the hill.

For posterity, my personal opinion is it should have been banned months ago. The G-Molt ban didn't make it broken, it just helped it even more. Further metagame developments continued to push it to the point of unbearability. For others, they considered these developments to be what made it now broken, but I will let them speak later.
 
Despite I dared not to use the word ‘‘check‘‘, pro-ban Aegi players say as if I am a beginner who don't know scizor and hippowdon cannot check Aegislash.
First, I felt many teams neglected to check subtox Aegi recently. This is the reason why chansey and zarude reduced the number so we can use them every time if you want. And some checks like primarina and celesteela are better in metagame.
bb skarm didn't bring subtox check. He had to think about counterplan. That's all. Keeping sub and not to push shadow ball are all Luthier have to do. It can't say broken that beating a team which had no checks.
U-turn (t7 and t9) were misplay. Luthier didn't need to take a risk in early game. Zarude could click darkest lariat. Using top player's mistake against anti-ban is marlicious. ”you, a weak player mustn't say anything because they are the highest level! All plays of the best players are justified!” is a wild argument.

I posted last aegi suspect why its not broken so I have nothing to say. You can win by bringing revenge killer and subtox check. That's all. Sorry for my bad english, but I believe Aegi is not out of our control.
 

Moutemoute

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bb skarm didn't bring subtox check. He had to think about counterplan. That's all. Keeping sub and not to push shadow ball are all Luthier have to do. It can't say broken that beating a team which had no checks.
This means you have to bring either Chansey, HDB Zarude or Spe Def Celesteela when you're building a team ? Is that the point you're trying to make ? Because that's definitively not a good one in favor of Aegislash staying in the tier. bb skarm had Mandibuzz + Sub Primarina (invested in Spe Def for sure based on Raikou's Volt Switch damages) + Amoonguss in order to check Aegislash. We can also take Zydog as an offensive check but hey that's not the point here. On the paper he had things which could handle Aegislash but he runned on a set he wasn't able to handle and that's the issue about Aegislash. You can't be prepared to deal with all its sets and you had to bring extremely dedicated and limited checks to deal with common sets such as SubTox Aegislash. And this should not be an issue and a legit reason to suspect Aegislash and willing to ban it ?
 
Not going to talk too much about the timing regarding this test since my fellow council members touched on that, so I’ll explain why I find Aegislash to be broken. My inherent issue with Aegislash stems from two factors, it's ability to adapt to whatever trend is happening in the tier and the fact its counterplay completely loses to a separate set. The first is not necessarily always a quality of a broken Pokemon, but Aegislash has shown time and time again to always stand out in the metagame and be a dangerous threat. For example, when Zarude and Chansey were super common in early UUPL, Aegislash began to run a Swords Dance + King's Shield set to take advantage of them, invalidating their existence as Aegislash checks by beating them with this set. Now, with Hippowdon dropping and Amoonguss being common, SubToxic has risen over SD + KS to abuse them. Aegislash will never be bad, it will always have multiple viable sets that can beat the other's checks. It will just always adapt.

To apply this to the current metagame, SubToxic is the most common set right now and is arguably broken by itself. In terms of actual counterplay, you resort to Zarude which has shown to be beaten before most recently in UU OPEN FINALS, being able to outstall Jungle Healing and force it to use it more from Pokemon like Slowking, Swampert, or even Suicune. There is Chansey which can't touch you in return, RestTalk Primarina which is prone to SpDef drops, Celesteela which gets worn down, especially since we’re seeing lots of offensive SubToxic sets, and Taunt users like Hydreigon, Mandibuzz, and Krookodile that can't switch into it in fear of taking a Toxic. Moreover, the former two rarely run this move while the latter is just not a great Pokémon. This is a very small subsect of counterplay available for just ONE set. I hear examples of stuff like Articuno but these are very stall/fat balance heavy Pokemon, not stuff you can easily fit on bulky offense teams. Offensive checks work until Aegi manages to get behind a Substitute, which WILL happen against common Pokemon like Amoonguss, Skarmory, Slowking, Cobalion, and Crobat without Taunt, one of these being on nearly every team, so have fun taking 60 from Shadow Ball or being put on a timer with Toxic. The fact that SubToxic alone forces hyper-specific counterplay is one thing, but the fact Mixed or Choice Specs beats these answers anyway makes it too much. Scizor is a softcheck at best, it can't take Shadow Ball well and only forces it out with Knock, while Hippo discourages SD KS variants but gets ruined by literally any other set. Goltres didn’t use the RestTalk set often, but it was still an option. Regardless, it leaving still benefits Aegislash. For example, Choice Specs can now fire off a powerful Ghost-type attack without fearing Goltres switching in and sweeping your team. Aegislash has been a hinderance for building for about 3 months now, it is and always will be bullshit to handle.

Tl;dr Subtoxic is bullshit as a set itself at this point and the fact other sets like Specs and Mixed exist and can do big damage to Zarude or Chansey attempting to catch it is just too much to handle for this tier.
 
I want to share my point in another way to express why I'll vote BAN here.
Why I voted a DNB before? Because there was a time cheese teams(spikes ho, web, sun, rain and trick room) couldn't be ignored not only ladder games but also tours (uupl). I myself used cheese a lot and I know it's a bit annoying getting bad match-ups and smashed by these teams. So here we have Aegislash in balance teams to deal with these teams: king's shield/sub can help to consume up weather/tr turns, shadow sneak to provide critical damage and make the game more playable as a bulky mon.I was strongly worried that cheese would be unstoppable if we choose to ban aegi at that time, a meta full of these teams is definitely unhealty.
But now we have two new guys to help balance teams. Hippo's sandstream would have a devastating effect on sun/rain and it's reliable as a physical-checker. Scizor has a strong stab priority move. Although they maybe provide celesteela's switch-in but in most cases things are definitely not worse. And by the way celesteela in my opinion is broken now as well, similar reason as gmolt—— during uult days I've met many time that: you managed to consume meteor beam and happily switched in moltres, and got flinched.(30% * 0.95 = 28.5%, such can't be ignored).
So I think if we choose to ban aegi, cheese will not to be a bigger problem here, so I choose BAN this time.
 
Hello, not sure if this is the right place for this, but I have a short question. As someone who doesn't check forums much, I didn't realize that the Aegi suspect had started, let alone almost concluded. The reason for this is because there isn't the disclaimer at the beginning of each UU battle that a suspect test is underway -- usually there is a "The council is testing Aegislash, click here for more information" in chat at the beginning of the game. How come this wasn't put in place for this test?
 

Moutemoute

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Hello, not sure if this is the right place for this, but I have a short question. As someone who doesn't check forums much, I didn't realize that the Aegi suspect had started, let alone almost concluded. The reason for this is because there isn't the disclaimer at the beginning of each UU battle that a suspect test is underway -- usually there is a "The council is testing Aegislash, click here for more information" in chat at the beginning of the game. How come this wasn't put in place for this test?
Not sure, maybe because UULT was underway too.
 
I'm going to explain why I'll vote ban on Aegislash. I feel that the two things that make it banworthy are the SubToxic set (which is broken and hard to deal with) and its versatility and ability to adapt.

The SubToxic set is incredibly good when well-used and have very few answers. It's really easy to set up on common Pokemon such as Slowking, Amoongus, Cobalion or Skarmory. From there, Aegislash is nearly guaranteed to get something poisonned and slowly but surely whittling down a Pokemon. Even if it's not able to directly get a kill, it's way too easy to bring Aegislash later thanks to its bulk and ability to easily set up a Substitute against tier's staple. There are very limited answers, restricted to Zarude, Chansey and RestTalk Pimarina and that's about it. Amoongus can't break the Substitute with Foul Play and easily get PP stall'ed. Scizor doesn't take well Shadow Ball and a single special defense drop is enough to 2HKO it. Celeestela will lose to several Shadow Ball, especially when it's possible to use Substitute when it goes for Leech Seed. Nihilego isn't reliable against SubToxic as it can't break the Substitute and it's easy to use King Shield on Knock Off. Nidoking and Exacdrill can only switch on Shadow Ball as it gets 2HKOed. Offensive checks like Hydreigon and Krookodile go down really quickly between Toxic and free turns between Substitute and King Shield. Even Pokemon with recovery like Hipowdown, Mandibuzz and Moltres that you would expect to be solid answers aren't working as it's easy to wear them down with poison, Substitute, King Shield and Shadow Ball. Really, it's too easy for Aegislash to set up on staples, present on almost every team and weakening answers with Toxic, Substitute and King Shield, while not losing too much health. It's able to get a Substitute numerous times during a battle and is just way too heard to answer between its power, bulk and poison.

Not only is the SubToxic set broken but Aegislash also has some other good sets. The mixed set easily destroys Chansey and Zarude with Close Combat. Choice Specs is really potent and won't have any problem defeating Mandibuzz and Primarina. Swords Dance isn't as good due to Hippowdown but still has some uses. The problem with all those sets is that there isn't a common counter to each of them and when facing it, it's painfull to scout due to how strong it is. You can't safely switch Zarude expecting the SubToxic version due to Close Combat (and it's not hard to put it in range after a Rocky Helmet chip from Cobalion for instance). You don't want to risk your Slowking to a Choice Specs Shadow Ball or getting either a Subsitute or Toxic while using Teleport. Aegislash is always a guessing game and it's just way too hard and risky to try to figure out its set. Not only, its versatility hurts game-wise but the Pokemon is really annoying teambuilding-wise. It's mandatory to have several checks to it and it just makes building a team unfun.

All in all, between the SubToxic set being broken, its versatility and constant guessing game with its different sets, Aegislash should definitely be banned. The tier would be way healthier and funnier without it, both in term of teambuilding and playing.
 

KM

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:ss/scizor:

after aegi's departure from the tier, scizor should absolutely be the next to be suspected. I've made my opinion clear about scizor for a few months now, and I think it easily deserved to be suspected even before Aegi left the tier, but Aegi leaving is yet another nail in the coffin that pushes it to even more ridiculous heights.

This argument that Aegi leaving makes Scizor better doesn't rest on any speculative meta trends or large-scale ideas about the meta shifting more offensive or anything -- it comes down to the simple fact that Scizor has infinitely more flexibility in its moveset than it used to. While Knock Off is still an incredible utility move regardless of Aegislash being in the tier or not, offensive sets no longer need to run it as coverage, freeing up a wide variety of sets (SD superpower 3atks, SD u-turn roost bp, SD LO double prio SP/bug bite, etc). This renders much of the common scizor counterplay (Cobalion, Amoonguss, Mandibuzz, Rotoms / Thundurus-T) significantly worse, and the overall increase in set unpredictability means that switchins are significantly riskier and the potential for an sdbpbpbpbp is all the higher.

We still have plenty of time to test Scizor before the new gen, and it should be our first priority. A significant portion of the council and community have been calling for it to be tested at some point since (and before) it dropped, and with Aegi leaving the tier now is more pressing a time than ever.
 

Clas

My death was... greatly exaggerated
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Hello, not sure if this is the right place for this, but I have a short question. As someone who doesn't check forums much, I didn't realize that the Aegi suspect had started, let alone almost concluded. The reason for this is because there isn't the disclaimer at the beginning of each UU battle that a suspect test is underway -- usually there is a "The council is testing Aegislash, click here for more information" in chat at the beginning of the game. How come this wasn't put in place for this test?
Test closed already but I do want to confirm that there were 0 notices on PS. Not even /suspects showed Aegi suspect happening, hence the clear lack of activity for a UU suspect test (not even 1 full page, that's genuinely crazy). for those wondering how I know, I check /suspects every week and saw ZU suspect come up 8 minutes after it was posted (6/3, before this suspect period closed) along with other cases of it not being shown, but only knew of this suspect today (6/7).

also the majority chose the correct option, screw aegi let it burn in bl
 
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Aqua Jet

Stardew
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Trick Room in SS UnderUsed
:SS/Marowak-Alola: :SS/Hatterene: :SS/Drampa:
I've always thought Trick Room was an underrated playstyle. The ability to completely turn the tables on your opponent for 4 turns seemed amazing to me. I started exploring Trick Room a while ago, trying out new Pokémon like Glaceon and Drampa. Since Aegislash's departure, Trick Room has gotten remarkably better, seeing as one of its best answers in Substitute + Toxic Aegislash is now gone. In this post, I will explore some new faces on Trick Room that I believe to be viable.

New Faces

:SS/Aggron:
thinking out loud (Aggron) (M) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 SpA / 0 Spe
- Toxic / Stealth Rock
- Iron Head
- Head Smash
- Earthquake

Despite being as low as PU, Aggron pairs extremely well on teams like the sample one I've linked below. Toxic allows it to pressure walls that would otherwise want to switch into it, notably Hippowdon. Stealth Rock can be run over Toxic to allow the team to have a way to consistently chip down opposing Pokémon if another teammate doesn't have the move. Iron Head allows Aggron to pressure Fairy-types. Head Smash is the move you'll be clicking most of the time, as it has a terrifying 150 Base Power. Combined with Aggron's 110 base Attack, it can OHKO foes such as Scizor and has a 25% chance to OHKO Amoonguss after Stealth Rock chip. Earthquake pairs nicely with Head Smash, preventing Steel-type foes from switching in. The main reason you're using Aggron is not because of its power, but because of its ability to obliterate Fairy-types for teammates like Drampa.
:SS/Drampa:
the end of June (Drampa) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

Sporting a base Special Attack stat of 135 and amazing coverage, Drampa is probably the best Pokemon on this list. Draco Meteor is Drampa's main STAB move that can be used on the last turn of Trick Room. Flamethrower allows Drampa to OHKO Scizor and Excadrill. Fire Blast can be run over Flamethrower to ensure the OHKO on Specially Defensive Excadrill, but I do not recommend it because 1) Accuracy issues and 2) I think Specially Defensive Excadrill is mediocre. Ice Beam and Thunderbolt together provide BoltBeam coverage that allows Drampa to threaten almost any other switch-in in the tier. This Pokémon is quite weak to things like Primarina, Chansey, and Hatterene, which is why I paired it with both Aggron and Marowak-Alola on the sample team below.

Pokémon I haven't tried recently but think are good
:SS/Glaceon:
Glaceon (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Ice Body
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Bell / Sleep Talk
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball / Nothing

Glaceon was first used by Lily on a Hail team (?) in the most recent iteration of the UnderUsed Snake Draft. Soon after that event, I was trying to make Glaceon work on Trick Room. With a high Special Attack stat (130), and a lot of bulk (65 / 110 / 95), Glaceon looks like it would be the perfect fit for Trick Room teams. Heal Bell can be used to cure teammates of untimely burns that occur as a result of Moltres' Flame Body, as well as significantly improving the matchup against Toxic Stall teams. Alternatively, Sleep Talk can be used over Heal Bell to be able to switch in comfortably to Amoonguss. Freeze-Dry and Ice Beam are used as powerful STAB attacks, with Freeze-Dry being able to hit Water-types super effectively. Shadow Ball can be run to threaten Pokémon that would otherwise switch in easily like Hatterene, Jirachi, and Marowak-Alola. No move can also be run in conjunction with Sleep Talk to ensure that against Amoonguss and Tangrowth you will always roll an Ice-type move once put to sleep.

Try it for yourself
:SS/Aggron: :SS/Cresselia: :SS/Drampa: :SS/Hatterene: :SS/Marowak-Alola: :SS/Porygon2:
This is a Trick Room team I've been using recently. It's fairly simplistic, with Aggron, Drampa, and Hatterene forming a Dragon-Fairy-Steel Offensive core. Marowak-Alola is a necessity on Trick Room teams. Cresselia and Porygon were added as more Trick Room setters that are able to gain momentum with Healing Wish and Teleport, respectively.

 
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