Metagame np: SS Ubers Stage 8 - Ridin' Dirty (Calyrex-Shadow Suspect Test)

[SiTuM]

Hello it's me, LE CHOUINAY :joy: Legion Leader Jeff Mewtwo Zidane, and I am probably the only person on the council voting Ban for Calyrex-S.

Having finished 6-1 in the most recent UPL, I feel more qualified to answer than almost everyone who has made comments on this thread thus far. There is no doubt, Fc, Aberforth, and especially Manaphy, have brought up fair points about why Calyrex-S should or should not be banned. However, I want to take the time to explain why I believe it should be banned, and this begins with the severe restriction it has on the builder.

Another point I want to make is that you CAN get away with using a check that is not Yveltal, even if it does mean having a worse match-up into some other threat/some extremely niche set.

That's utterly false.

Number of Tyranitar used in this tournament: 2. Number of wins: 0.
Number of Zarude used in this tournament: 3. Number of wins: 2.
So 40% winrate for using a Calyrex check that's not Yveltal. Not very good, huh? (Not even gonna count the fact that these two have only been used in 5 games out of 84.)

You can run whatever you want on a team, but the reality is, Yveltal is the best check to Calyrex-S—using anything else as your primary check makes your team sub-optimal in modern SS Ubers. Almost every team in SS Ubers is running the Yvel/Etern/NDM core, and trying to be fancy and deviating away from this core will ultimately make your team weaker to standard balance match-ups. Structures that elect to use Tyranitar or Zarude as their primary Calyrex-S check end up being weaker to common threats like DD Zekrom, Marshadow, and SD + 3 Attacks Don, which are common partners for Calyrex-S. You don't just lose to some niche sets/mons; you lose to frequently seen threats.

Given all of the sets above, I think the most consistent combinations of mons to beat Caly while using Fast Yveltal would be Yve + Whirlwind Ho-Oh, Taunt Yve + Marshadow, Yveltal + Zarude, or Yveltal + Blissey. Bulky Yveltal sets will win against Sash NP sets and thus don't really require a revenge killer.

Dedicating four team slots to account for common metagame threats is awfully reminiscent of the Zacian-H metagame (anyone remember Yvel/Etern/NDM + Regen Pivot?). Yes, Calyrex-S cannot end the game as quickly as Zacian-H did. But what people don't seem to realize is that this game is not a 1v6. Calyrex-S has devastating offensive partners such as Groudon, Zekrom, and Marshadow. Now, let's closely take a look at each of the common combinations of adequate ways to check Calyrex-S.

Pairing Calyrex with either Groudon or Zekrom means passive cores (Yveltal + Ho-Oh and Blissey) are easier to remove in practice. Marshadow can power through Ho-Oh, too, if it carries Rock Tomb. Whirlwind Ho-Oh is something interesting you brought up. More and more Ho-Oh are forgoing Whirlwind to fit in Brave Bird (for better dueling power against Eternatus), thus making Ho-Oh's most popular move combination Sacred Fire (or Flare Blitz), Brave Bird, Thunder Wave, and Defog. Having to run Whirlwind Ho-Oh to deal with Calyrex-S isn't optimal either, for the reasons BasedWhat? mentioned, as Calyrex-S can simply power through it or have one of its teammates use it as a setup opportunity. Zarude usage plummeted with an 1 increase in Fire Move Groudon, and interestingly, it can't even properly check Modest Specs Calyrex-S, as it risks getting 3HKO'd by it. Taunt Yveltal + Marshadow (or a fast scarfer) is a short-term solution against Calyrex-Shadow, but running Taunt Yveltal on Balance means it is only running one attacking move, which is liable to be exploited by Disable or Trick + Protect Calyrex-S.

When we look at bulky Yveltal sets, people fail to realize that their opposing Hyper Offensive match-up becomes significantly more difficult, if not impossible, to win. This is not an exaggeration; successful Balance teams must be able to overcome the Hyper Offense matchup, and running a bulky Yveltal makes it more difficult to do so.

Yveltal is currently the most popular Defogger in the tier, possessing an excellent speed tier. Unfortunately, slow Yveltal loses the ability to neutralize the Hazard War, as faster Yveltal can simply Taunt it. Even dual defog cores consisting of bulky Yveltal + Ho-Oh cannot eliminate hazards, as faster threats such as Zekrom and Groudon can use their switchins as setup opportunities and possibly end the game on the spot.

Perhaps what does is it for me is the fact that using Bulky Yveltal isn't even a surefire countermeasure to deal with Calyrex-S. Observe the following calculation against a +2 Modest Caly:

+2 252+ SpA Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 210-248 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO

This is a roll in the Calyrex-S user's favor. If the Yveltal is below 92% of health, which happens quite frequently in practice, it loses the ability to deal with +2 Calyrex-S. Indeed, the Yveltal has to be at nearly full health to have the ability to tank two +2 Draining Kisses. This is not a sign of a healthy mon in the slightest. I featured this calculation because running bulky Yveltal alone is insufficient to deal with Calyrex-S on Hyper Offense. Only bulky Yveltal that carry Snarl can deal with this variant of Calyrex-S, but Snarl has next to no utility, and you're losing coverage on what could be an otherwise important move like U-Turn for momentum generation or Taunt. Sucker Punch, unfortunately, gets beaten by Disable, which is something many NP Calyrex-S carry these days.

I've read many posts that disregarded the potency of Specs Trick + Protect + Disable/NP Calyrex-S, but there are at least three high-level UPL games where the Calyrex-S just wins on the spot against Yveltal and proceeds to end the game:

TJ vs Stresh SS Week 5: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-633664

LBN vs pdt SS Week 5: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-632384

Hoenn vs Jonfilch SS Semis: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-636613

Notice that neither Stresh nor Jonfilch abided by the combinations that Manaphy suggested (I won't talk about LBN's team choice because it's unviable). Does that mean that their teams are automatically bad? Absolutely not. Nevertheless, in an attempt to run more diverse and versatile builds, they sacrificed their Calyrex-S match-up and proceeded to lose to it. That is not the sign of a healthy mon. It is beyond overcentralizing at this point. Calyrex-S forces you to use one of the cores listed above, and those cores are subject to getting decimated by the combination of Calyrex-S and any of its frequent joint offense partners. Whether you agree with it or not, the restriction Calyrex-S currently imposes on the builder is frighteningly similar to that of Zacian-H (in the sense that only a few builds are actually viable at this point). This is further compounded by the fact that Calyrex-S can run multiple different sets, and as Manaphy put it best, "the right Calyrex-S set will always beat the wrong Yveltal set."

I will be voting do not ban and I implore anyone who is voting based on balance to truly tell me that high level tournament play is dictated by Calyrex-S (hint: it's not!).

This is probably the most misleading take in the entire thread (and there are some genuinely awful takes). Anyone who plays SS Ubers at a high level knows that Calyrex-S dictates tournament play, as evidenced by its usage and sheer power. Let's look at some relevant replays in this year's UPL where Calyrex-S was used and dictated high-level tournament play:

Byron vs. Sharow SS Bo3 Week 1: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-627254 (Sharow's Yveltal got para'd turn 1, and no longer could check Caly in the game. You'd think a team with Yveltal + Giratina-O would be able to deal with Calyrex-S, right?)

BluBird vs Tony SS Week 2: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-628750 (Yveltal got chipped enough throughout the course of the game, where Tony's Specs Calyrex-S could just clean up.)

Suapah vs Sage SS Week 2: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-628863 (This is an interesting game. It shows that even though Yveltal has Taunt, it could potentially get chipped enough to the point where +2 SubSeed Caly can power through it. Sage feared Sucker Punch on Yveltal, but if they had gotten the 50-50 right, the game would have ended right there. Unfortunately, Sage didn't risk it. More than likely, the Yveltal didn't have it either since Suapah probably ran U-Turn to pivot into Marshadow.)

LBN vs Skarph SS Week 2: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-628416 (Did you ever think a Scarf Calyrex-S would power through and beat a team with both Yveltal and Blissey? Hint: look what happens)

Goat Heart vs. Gondra Bo3 SS Week 2: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-629056 (As soon as Gondra's Yveltal got para'd and lost HDB - game over. To expect Yveltal to stay healthy at 100% throughout the game to check Calyrex-S is absurd, and Goat Heart capitalized on that).

Gondra vs Star Bo3 SS Week 6: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-634994 (Tricking with Calyrex-S just puts the Caly user in an immediate advantage, as the game effectively becomes a 5v6. There's not much else to say here; besides, Scarf Calyrex-S still has its niche.)

Welli0u vs Skarph Bo3 SS Week 7: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-636087 (This game doesn't actually feature a Caly sweep but shows what one of its most common partners - Groudon - can end up doing to Yveltal.)

As evidenced by these replays, Calyrex-S clearly dictates high-level play in prestigious tours, and yet, teams that prepare against it still lose at an alarming rate (looking at Calyrex-S win rates in the recent Ubers Open further corroborates this).

I think one of the biggest reasons why people (especially those leaning toward anti-ban) feel Calyrex-S isn't as broken as its predecessor Zacian is that it cannot end a game as quickly, nor is it as restrictive. With Zacian, any player was one Assurance or Choice Banded hit from losing the game. However, Calyrex-S can do similar things, and the only way it is kept in check is if Yveltal and other vital parts of your opponent's defensive backbone are fully healthy. Scenarios like this rarely occur in practice. To put it bluntly, Yveltal and Eternatus are the most likely mons to lose their item or get afflicted by status in a vacuum. A well-played Calyrex-S can take advantage of your opponent's defensive backbone at any point in the game. It has too many sets to account for, and no single team can viably cover them all (remember, stacking Caly checks makes you weak to its common offensive partners). Before saying that every threat in Ubers can potentially do this, remember that Calyrex-S has a combination of Base 150 speed, over a half-dozen viable sets, and the ability to snowball faster than anything else we have seen in this generation of Ubers. Its restrictiveness on the builder is comparable to that of Zacian-H. Do I believe Calyrex-S is necessarily broken? Not quite. Do I believe Calyrex-S should be banned for all the reasons I mentioned above? Yes.

On another note, we cannot meaningfully predict what the new metagame will look like, but I am almost certain every team will still run some permutation of Yvel/Etern/NDM (because that core is probably the most solid core in DLC2 SS Ubers). If a Caly-less tier ends up being extremely volatile and even worse than the one we have right now, it is certainly possible to re-suspect it before the middle of November since Ubers is a tier now. We'll just have to wait and find out, but I implore all of you to consider the points I brought up and make an informed decision. It is truly disheartening and unfortunate how many misguided and low-quality posts made by certain users detracted from the overall purpose of this thread.

As a high-level tour player and member of the SS Ubers Council, I genuinely feel the removal of Calyrex-S will introduce a breath of fresh air that this tier desperately needs. Otherwise, building teams will continue to remain a stale nightmare, since you're forced to use up four slots just to not lose to one ghost horse. I hope you enjoyed the read!

 

[Dreadfury]

Honestly, I don't think Caly-S is even remotely worth banning. This generation of Ubers has far, far bigger problems - none of which can be fixed in ANY number of Suspect Tests - and I don't think one of the best anti-HO countermeasures and revenge killers in the tier getting banned will fix any problems; rather, it'll cause even more problems since it frees Yveltal up to do much, much more than it's currently capable of doing while not negatively impacting Eternatus and NDM too terribly much (in other words, reinforcing a core that is already on nearly every competent Ubers team) and allows setup sweepers like Zekrom/Rayquaza and opposing Scarfers to wreak havoc like never before. The literal only thing I feel this ban would accomplish is making Calyrex-Ice a lot more viable, but... honestly, that won't do much against a fast-paced metagame unless it gets in safely against something it can OHKO (which is, for what it's worth, a huge percentage of the tier). If Calyrex-S is being suspected based on the rise of Disable sets that can eventually muscle past Yveltal, I don't exactly agree with that rationale whatsoever. The vast majority of mons in this tier have the movepools and BSTs to do the same, after all. I don't see how this makes Caly-S particularly special despite its fantastic, min-maxed offensive statline and barely good-enough movepool.

If I end up actually bothering with getting reqs, I'll personally be voting to Not Ban Calyrex-S. This tier's already borderline unsalvageable as is; I don't think this ban will do anything but make a very stale metagame even worse to play and it just removes a legitimately interesting and unique offensive option from the tier while still promoting the exact same level of cookie-cutter defensive structures that currently exist.

 

[Eledyr]

Honestly, I don't think Caly-S is even remotely worth banning. This generation of Ubers has far, far bigger problems - none of which can be fixed in ANY number of Suspect Tests - and I don't think one of the best anti-HO countermeasures and revenge killers in the tier getting banned will fix any problems; rather, it'll cause even more problems since it frees Yveltal up to do much, much more than it's currently capable of doing while not negatively impacting Eternatus and NDM too terribly much (in other words, reinforcing a core that is already on nearly every competent Ubers team) and allows setup sweepers like Zekrom/Rayquaza and opposing Scarfers to wreak havoc like never before. The literal only thing I feel this ban would accomplish is making Calyrex-Ice a lot more viable, but... honestly, that won't do much against a fast-paced metagame unless it gets in safely against something it can OHKO (which is, for what it's worth, a huge percentage of the tier). If Calyrex-S is being suspected based on the rise of Disable sets that can eventually muscle past Yveltal, I don't exactly agree with that rationale whatsoever. The vast majority of mons in this tier have the movepools and BSTs to do the same, after all. I don't see how this makes Caly-S particularly special despite its fantastic, min-maxed offensive statline and barely good-enough movepool.

Calyrex-S is not being suspected because of the recent rise of Disable sets pushing it over the top. No, it's the sheer number of sets Caly-S can run in the builder while making opposing players always think about which set they lose to the fastest and model their gameplay around that supposition that makes it unhealthy. Using BST as an argument is fallacious when Calyrex-S has the best speed tier in the entire game, with an unmatched ability to snowball at any point in the game (more so in the mid + endgame). Its movepool is fantastic - access to a 120 Base Power move with perfect accuracy and amazing offensive typing (Ghost, which has very few resistances and immunities) further boosted by STAB, plenty of support options, and most importantly, the potential to cripple an opposing defensive backbone with Trick. As mentioned numerous times already, Calyrex-S is not frail either. It can usually tank one unboosted hit from the vast majority of offensive threats in the tier. Calyrex-S is one of the biggest enablers of modern Hyper Offense, and its ability to function as a revenge killer, while valuable, does not make Hyper Offense truly less difficult to deal with (remember, there are other anti-offense tools that can do a comparable job like Scarf Galarian Darmanitan). Finally, speculating about what will be good after the ban has nothing to do with the current discussion. As SiTuM said in his post, we cannot meaningfully predict what a Caly-less metagame will look like. To base your argument for or against banning Calyrex-S based on hypotheticals is disingenuous and misleading.

 

[658Greninja]

I’ve seen alot of back and forth in this thread but Manaphy and Lasen brought interesting perspectives on the suspect test and Ubers as a whole. Ubers has always been a centralizing tier, but sometimes centralizing doesn’t always equate to unhealthy. Calyrex can be comparable to RBY Tauros, GSC Lax, and DPP spikes/Kyogre/Darkrai. These are elements of their respective tiers that seem restrictive, centralizing, or downright impossible to counter, but happen to remain healthy parts of the metagame.

People complain about Shadow Rider having too many sets that can blow past its usual checks, but lets compare it to GSC Lax. Lax can customize its moveset to choose its checks. Fire Blast for Skarm/Lix, Belly Drum for Miltank, Thunder for Cloyster, Self-Destruct to break past wall, Lovely Kiss to be more annoying etc. But with that in mind it is always sacrificing something cause as we all know Pokemon have 4 slots to work with. No matter what, there will always be something that can check/counter you. (Skarm, Phazers, Cloyster, etc). Or how about RBY Tauros who is another fast mon like Calyrex. Its best checks are Lax, Cloyster, and itself. Of course Tauros can slot in Thunder for Cloyster, especially since Gar will mostly not be around to check it in the long run. Plus it can bypass Rhydon via Blizzard. Does it make it centralizing? Yes. Does it make it broken/unhealthy? No. Cause there is viable counterplay to it like the aforementioned checks and T-Wave which is spammed to infinity and beyond in RBY. Kyogre’s Specs boosted Water Spout? Palkia, Latias, keeping up hazards, minimizing its switch ins, and outspeeding/threatening OHKOs. Spikes in DPP? Put up spikes and get even. Pressure their spinblocker. Anti-lead them. Minimize the amount of mons weak to spikes on a team. Uber (also RBY/GSC) has always had a history of having seemingly broken stuff with few consistent counters that actually leads to interesting dynamics in the metagame.

That brings us back to Calyrex. It has sets tailored to mowing past its usual check Yveltal, however most of these sets have their own issues. Mainly a lack of immediate power that Specs provides. Ubers is a notoriously bulky, strong metagame and being a frail mon for Uber standards, you end up missing out on OHKOs or even 2HKOs, and then it proceeds to get OHKOd back by a majority of the metagame. Sub-Seed, Disable, etc can be stalled out, and with only 8 pp this isn’t an unrealistic possibility. Trick has been played around. Some players even stay in with their NDM to bait the Trick and kill it with Knock Off (the same can be done with Eternatus). Once it uses Trick on them, it can no longer beat Yveltal. Hell, NDM can even survive a hit from some of its variants at full. Ofc there is a huge risk to these plays. There is also ways to limit both the amount of times it comes in and prevent it from snowballing. Incorporating mons that could live one or two hits from Calyrex, speed control, putting up pressure with hazards to limit switch ins.

If you want a short, non essay version of this.

Basically Calyrex is alot like DPP Kyogre and RBY Tauros in being difficult to check but being a centralizing but healthy part of the metagame with clear counterplay.

 

[Samba ADV]

I’ve seen alot of back and forth in this thread but Manaphy and Lasen brought interesting perspectives on the suspect test and Ubers as a whole. Ubers has always been a centralizing tier, but sometimes centralizing doesn’t always equate to unhealthy. Calyrex can be comparable to RBY Tauros, GSC Lax, and DPP spikes/Kyogre/Darkrai. These are elements of their respective tiers that seem restrictive, centralizing, or downright impossible to counter, but happen to remain healthy parts of the metagame.

People complain about Shadow Rider having too many sets that can blow past its usual checks, but lets compare it to GSC Lax. Lax can customize its moveset to choose its checks. Fire Blast for Skarm/Lix, Belly Drum for Miltank, Thunder for Cloyster, Self-Destruct to break past wall, Lovely Kiss to be more annoying etc. But with that in mind it is always sacrificing something cause as we all know Pokemon have 4 slots to work with. No matter what, there will always be something that can check/counter you. (Skarm, Phazers, Cloyster, etc). Or how about RBY Tauros who is another fast mon like Calyrex. Its best checks are Lax, Cloyster, and itself. Of course Tauros can slot in Thunder for Cloyster, especially since Gar will mostly not be around to check it in the long run. Plus it can bypass Rhydon via Blizzard. Does it make it centralizing? Yes. Does it make it broken/unhealthy? No. Cause there is viable counterplay to it like the aforementioned checks and T-Wave which is spammed to infinity and beyond in RBY. Kyogre’s Specs boosted Water Spout? Palkia, Latias, keeping up hazards, minimizing its switch ins, and outspeeding/threatening OHKOs. Spikes in DPP? Put up spikes and get even. Pressure their spinblocker. Anti-lead them. Minimize the amount of mons weak to spikes on a team. Uber (also RBY/GSC) has always had a history of having seemingly broken stuff with few consistent counters that actually leads to interesting dynamics in the metagame.

That brings us back to Calyrex. It has sets tailored to mowing past its usual check Yveltal, however most of these sets have their own issues. Mainly a lack of immediate power that Specs provides. Ubers is a notoriously bulky, strong metagame and being a frail mon for Uber standards, you end up missing out on OHKOs or even 2HKOs, and then it proceeds to get OHKOd back by a majority of the metagame. Sub-Seed, Disable, etc can be stalled out, and with only 8 pp this isn’t an unrealistic possibility. Trick has been played around. Some players even stay in with their NDM to bait the Trick and kill it with Knock Off (the same can be done with Eternatus). Once it uses Trick on them, it can no longer beat Yveltal. Hell, NDM can even survive a hit from some of its variants at full. Ofc there is a huge risk to these plays. There is also ways to limit both the amount of times it comes in and prevent it from snowballing. Incorporating mons that could live one or two hits from Calyrex, speed control, putting up pressure with hazards to limit switch ins.

If you want a short, non essay version of this.

Basically Calyrex is alot like DPP Kyogre and RBY Tauros in being difficult to check but being a centralizing but healthy part of the metagame with clear counterplay.

There's a lot of stuff in here I don't agree with, but mainly, I don't think you can realistically compare Calyrex-Shadow to any of the other centralizing threats you mentioned in other generations. There are several qualities Calyrex-S possesses (high speed tier, ability to snowball, amazing offensive typing, etc.) that far surpass the threats you mentioned from previous generations. I don't think you should rely on the antecedent set by previous generations to base your decision on arguably the most important and pivotal tiering decision of this generation. This has been the most "ban-happy" generation of SS Ubers because Gen 8 dealt Ubers a shitty hand. But, your post is literally comparing apples and oranges. Calyrex-S is much more problematic than the threats you listed, and I implore you to read some quality pro-ban posts such as the one's written by top players like SiTuM and Reje.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

Should CalyS be banned?
Short answer: Yes
Long answer: Yes, it should. Firstly, it is overcentralizing. People compare this to RBY tauros, GSC snorlax and shit, but this is 1: out of point and 2: centralization can be healthy. CalyS has an unhealthy centralization: To make a good team that doesn’t get fucked by premium, common threats and balance, you need Yveltal, Eternatus and Necrozma-DM. How much does CalyS contribute? A fuck ton. It could break through everything. The only switch in are the trio of bulky darks: Yveltal, T-Tar and Zarude, the latter two is horrible against the rest of the metagame. Let’s talk about why the former is the crumbling bulwark against CalyS:
Firstly, if you run a slow Yveltal, get prepared to be taunted by faster Yveltal on Hyper Offense teams. If you run a fast Yveltal, it is much frailer and can easily be breaken down by what is supposed to counter. Even slower ones can be played around: It could be disabled, tricked and simply be worn down.

But what people don't seem to realize is that this game is not a 1v6. Calyrex-S has devastating offensive partners such as Groudon, Zekrom, and Marshadow.

I have to agree on this. The former 2 eats Yveltal for breakfast, while the latter, Marshadow removes all hopes of countering CalyS without Yveltal, not to mention it having Rock Tomb, which can seriously cripple Yveltal by removing a huge chunk of its health and reducing its speed too. Choosing to sucker punch seems awfully familiar to the 50/50 ”guessing game” brought up by Zacian. Stacking CalyS counters won’t work, because it’s partners could feast on your team. If you think that’s not enough because every Uber mon can do it, CalyS hasn’t even thrown enough bullshit at us. It is super easy to use, unlike Zekrom. Any set of CalyS that actually works fit any team that can support CalyS, and your opponent has to guess which set it is. Guessing wrongly makes your team fucked. The variety of sets makes the guessing from a 50/50 to more like a 15/85. What distinguishes it from other Uber moms? Other than it’s insane snowballing pontential, it has an unmatched speed tier, only surpassed by Ninjask and Regielecki (I probably misspelled it), both of which are gimmicks that can be played around. Also, after it breaks down its counter, there is no hope. Priority revenge killers can be escaped from, because an ingenious member of gamefreak decided to remove pursuit. When we ban CalyS, the tier will no longer have a huge headache and there are more defensive parts to a team then the mandatory YEN cores. There is no such shit as ”X beats Y, so if X is banned, Y will be too OP”. I’m this case, we can either unban X or ban Y.

 

[zachff]

Whilst I am pretty bad in ubers, and not be voting, I am quite familiar with Calyrex-S' dominance in said, and other, metagames - and I've long awaited a suspect test because caly is not only a mon that controls high ladder, but is the very floor and wall that the ladder rests on and this should be more considered in arguments - all players of ladder are affected by caly, as such I'd like to share my two cents.

I'm not going to bore you with calcs, but I'd like to share some points.
In my mind, caly-s is a very ban-worthy mon; and ultimately, there are several factors leaning toward both ends of the argument. Much has already been said, but I'd like to reinforce and develop a few points: centralization and state of the metagame.
Caly demands a very specific dark-type opponent, most prominently found in yveltal, and there are only a minute number of cases where a snarlless yve is close to being good enough. In my mind, this is, by the very nature of the fact, unhealthy. Snarl is a terrible move in 1v1, particularly as it takes up a slot on some would-be very versatile mons, an obvious example in yve however, less commonly and reliably, there is ttar, mosa, shifu, and mons with uncommon AVs who are all wasted using sets primarily for caly. There is, of course, the valid argument that it's irresponsible to assume one position to check caly, but that begs the even moreso valid question that is: "Is this healthy?"
This is a clear no. If a single mon demands at least two opposing team members to check it, there are several issues raised regarding the wellbeing of the game. I realize that, at face value, this is not a huge issue. As a matter of fact, we've seen this before - some examples include EK (past gens) and many sashed sweepers are dealt with by means of hazards + counterplay.

However, this does not apply to calyrex.

As has been said far too many times on this thread already, caly has unparalled sweeping potential with devastating threats in np/sub, its unmatched speed tier (excluding unreliable gimmick mons in eleki and ninjask) and ridiculous spattack stat. To top this, caly's ability to wield this outstanding firepower and still have room for an item is reminiscient of aspects in zac-h and, in past gens, mray. Not to mention caly's ability to pose wl 50/50s, something that has aided zac-c's notoriety (see the above argument).
All this, and still no mention of it's ability - which in my mind, with the addition of its 100% accuracy stab astral barrage, is one of the major selling points of its ban. Caly's snowballing potential is seriously unprecedented, there is no counterargument in kyogre or, for that matter, any other pokemon - and this should be for obvious reasons - calyrex may be challenged in endurance by the PP of its signature move, but caly does not need long to spiral out of control and is a quick and devastating starting and finishing slice. The very familiar phenomenon found in a +6 caly is not an uncommon motif in any caly metagame, and is one that can and will 6-0 teams.

Which brings me onto my second point:

I recognise that the above is something that has for the mostpart been said already - however there is a fundamental aiding argument that flaws many anti-ban arguments. Skill, or more appropriately: accessiblity of play. The ability for other mons to snowball is not rare, but it does, however, require tactical play and positioning in order to set up. Caly requires significantly less preparation and is a very accessible sweeper due to it's excellent offensive typing and it's ability + stab which can start snowballing from the get-go. I've seen many arguments regarding the well-being of the meta and claiming that caly promotes more skilful play. This is a flawed argument. Caly's ability to ohko the vast majority of the pokedex and 1v1 the AG tier and most ubers all the while putting in significantly less effort, skill and preparation than other mons means that if this demon horse is found in team preview, the match immediately becomes one-sided in terms of skilful play. The opponent is either forced to: snarl yve, st with their own caly, or outplay the opponent. The former two are uncommon, wasteful and unreliable whilst the latter can be disregarded by one's own play, which again boils down to unreliability - particularly as the demand for skilful play diminishes upon use of caly due its afforementioned accessibility of play. Now, I'm not saying that caly is fundamentally a 'skilless' mon. I'm saying that caly is one of the most significant and accessible sweeping potentials with no-cost. It's countless viable sets render predictability far less useful and in most cases, and all cases that lack yve, caly can be switched in at the right time to seal the fate of the game by clicking 2 moves, occasionally 1.
I must admit, there is some level of skilful play and predicts required to use certain caly sets. However if the demands are met, the outcome of the game is already decided, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. So ultimately, caly can only occasionally promote skilful play, however, when it does, the game is an automatic win. In cases such as caly's, there is a fine line between healthy and unhealthy play and if the bar at all tips to one side, the consequences are absolute due to its afforementioned sweeping potential and accessibility. In the specific case of caly' there is an unfortunate tip toward unhealthy play and this causes many calyrex-s metagames to become not fun and overcentralized.
I'd also like to discuss the idea of a caly ban enabling other punishing options to arise such as offensive yve. This is not something I see, and I believe you should see, as an issue. As a matter of fact, I believe this might promote more skill than the status quo. Options like calyrex-i might see more viability among other currently-unreliable mons. A caly-less meta is one that, I foresee, to be a breath of fresh air and an overly-restrictive burden lifted off the shoulders of players at any part of the ladder.

I am, however, sympathetic to the anti-ban arguments. For example I do believe, given the right mons and sets, countering caly is very, very easy - particularly with snarl yve alone. However as has been said before, it is not 1v6 and caly's teammates can destroy any hope of counterplay.

Ultimately, I'm not as experienced in ubers as practically all voters and members on this thread. However, I still value the umbrella points to be valid, and overpowering reasons to ban calyrex.

 

[Sanos]

I am not personally very familiar with this generation of uber, but I think a way to look at the potential brokenness of Caly-S would be to compare it to ash greninja in gen 7 ou. I am pretty new to smogon and so I don't know if taking this approche is interesting and relevant competitively, but I hope it is acceptable.

From what I know, USUM ou and Crown tundra uber are quite similar tiers, were hyper offence is very good but stall and balance are a force thanks to the presence of reliable walls.
Like Caly-S, ash greninja is an extremely fast and strong special attacker who warps its tier around it. Every serious gen 7 ou team almost requiers a greninja counter, just like making a gen 8 uber team without a ghost switch-in is a very bad idea.
So here are the points that makes me think that caly-S is far more broken than ash-greninja:

-While both of these mons forces every team to run a conter to them, in gen 7 ou there are a TON of pokemon that are able to at least stop greninja once or twice, if not to completely wall it for the entire game (Tapu fini, tapu bulu, ferrothorn, toxapex, AV tangroth, gastrodon, chansey just to name a few), and there are still faster mons capable of revanche killing it (mega lopunny, mega zam, mega lanectric and zeraora, aswell as scarf kartana and scarf lele). On the contrary, to be reliably safe against Caly S, your choices are pretty much limited to Yveltal, Ttar or Blissey and ... zarude?, and it is so fast that there are no reliable revanche killers except pheromossa, fast scarf users (mon with 90 speed must run + speed nature if they want to outspeed it) and shadow sneak users (a fantastic choice between marshadow and giratina-o witch are not bad but not very splashable on every team)

-Another difference is that while every team need a grenin counter, these counters are very good against the rest of the metagame, even when forced to run Spdef sets (ferro and tox are self explanatory; fini defogs, can stallbreak and provides status immunity; bulu is a threat in its own right with SD and provides passive healing for its team; chansey is chansey; mega lopunny ,scarf kart and scarf lele are excellent against the ever present offensive teams). On the contrary, while Yveltal is by no means a bad pokemon, its spedef set only really checks Caly-S and after the horse dies, it will knock of one or two other mons and maybe scare out dusk-mane. T-tar's only use is maybe to enable excadrill (good luck with groudon and kyogre around) or annoy opposing weather teams. And Blissey is super passive and is destroyed by sub. And the worst part is that you cannot rely on revanche killing it because it could be a scarf set (and if you want to revanche kill it, that means it has gotten a KO and a +1 spatk)

-Caly-S is able to modify its set to beat its counters, like it was mentioned many times in other posts. But if you know gen 7 ou, you know that a part of what makes gren so good is that because are forced to assume it is an ash greninja, it can KO all of the aforementioned counters by using a protean set with gunk shot for the fairies and other coverage for all its other checks. But while caly-s is still able to snowball and clean up with one of its sets to invalidate its counters because its still has his broken ability, protean grenin is FAR less threatening than ash gren. So that means that greninja needs to choose between being a terrifying wallbreaker and beating its counters, but not both on the same set; while sets like trick-protect-disable on Caly-S with just astral barrage are able to snowball in the end- or even mid-game. At last, while ash greninja only evre runs specs, caly-s is totally capable of using scarf, witch can invalidate the option of revanche killing it for an offensive team without shadow sneak.

-And finally, while caly-S is by no mean bulky, its has a good defensive typing giving it the ability to switch into choiced marshadow's cc, but the most outrageous thing is its ability to take hits from invested strong pokemons :
252 Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 262-310 (76.8 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Kyogre Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Calyrex-Shadow in Rain: 246-289 (72.1 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Calyrex-Shadow: 230-270 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 220+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Thousand Waves vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 237-280 (69.5 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Calyrex-Shadow: 207-244 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Calyrex-Shadow: 264-312 (77.4 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That means that revanche killing it with a scarfer is not possible if it has not been chiped, reducing the options to deal with caly even more. For the comparaison, grenin can only switch into choiced psychic from tapu lele thanks to its typing and is ohko'ed by every common scarfer except blacephalon.

So, from the perspective of a gen 7 ou player, caly-S looks like a stronger, faster and harder to deal with ash-greninja, witch restrain teambuilding far more due to the limited amount of defensive counters and because it is almost impossible to revanche kill it without a shadow sneak user because it can survive most one hits from opposing scarfer and it can viably run a scarf set itself. So I think calyrex shadow should be banned.
(sorry for bad english)

 

[clementinabroccolina]

I'm a little concerned about all of the dubious analogies and comparisons being made from other pokemon in previous generations without much analysis of the things CalyS does in tournaments or how its checks actually aim to deal with it. Even moreso that some people are taking that as their primary reasoning to be for or against banning it. Not that it's not helpful to maybe provide some context for the type of mon CalyS is but its role in Ubers is pretty unique and unprecedented and it would be a shame if results got skewed one way or another because someone wanted to chime in and compare it to LC Vullaby or something

 

[penguinsingh337]

Hello Everyone!, Its my first ever post on a Smogon Forum So I hope to have good discussion here!
Anyway now Lets discuss Calyrex-Shadow in the Ubers and whether should it be Banned or Not.

In my opinion Calyrex-Shadow Should be BANNED from Ubers because of how It has an uhealthy centralisation of the metagame.
Calyrex only has Yveltal as a reliable check.(Ttar and Zarude are not common mons in Ubers and see less tournament usage), And Yveltals Most common set the Specially defensive set hard loses to the Substitute + Disable set and Once Yveltal is down, Calyrex Basically 6-0s the opposing team which is not Healthy imo. Now Substitue + Disable Does Hard lose to normal types like Blissey but they are not common in Ubers or lose to other calyrex sets like Specs Or Subseed. What makes it even more frustrating to deal is that Only Specially defensive Yveltal is the most consistent way of beating Calyrex Because Life Orb Yveltal would Lose to Calyrex after Stealth Rocks.

252+ SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 131-154 (33.3 - 39.1%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So Yveltal Cant just bypass the 2hitko by clicking Sucker punch because then Calyrex can Sub and with LO recoil, yea this yveltal set is not beating Calyrex...

Now Yveltal Can run Snarl which beats every calyrex set But this has huge issues which are that Snarl is only Useful on calyrex and some variants of eternatus otherwise its dead weight against the rest of the metagame because its giving up valuable move like Roost or U-turn. This is Unhealthy For the metagame.

Another this is that Ubers is a 6V6 game not a 1V6 so Calyrex doesnt even need to sweep everything, it can easily use dangerous teammates which itself can force a sweep, The Best example is how calyrex forces Yveltal to switch in which can lead to an Easy Setup For DD Zekrom which itself can win games. Many people against the ban Mention that Calyrex requires skill but it doesnt need much skill. Like all it needs Yveltal to be down and then it can win games itself, Or even if it dies to yveltal, it leaves Yveltal in low HP which would lead to easy setup like DD Zekrom mentioned above who can win the games. This not exactly "Skillful" and more towards braindead easy.

A common question is asked in this thread is what makes calyrex so special in the ubers meta that it needs to be banned over other absurd threats like Kyogre or Xerneas? The Answer is Calyrex unmatched Snowball effect thx to grim neigh boost and how ghost STAB is pretty good in the current Ubers Meta, It forces alot of guessing into what set its running which makes it frustrating to play against because a certain mon would end up losing to a Certain calyrex set leading to alot of MU fishing, Like Ttar seems a great cal check but caly unleashes a leaf storm, Or Zarude looks like a safe answer but Caly has pollen puff(Ik its something you never see but the point is that nothing is safe against caly), This is what makes it so special over other Uber threats in the current metagame

Another point I feel people dont wanna ban calyrex is becuase its not as Broken As Zacian or Mega Rayquaza which is true but it doesnt mean Calyrex is not unhealthy for the meta. Yea it Doesnt 2hitko the entire meta like zacian or Mray but Caly is still extremely unhealthy for the metagame because it forces teams to run Yveltal because it is common to see a team not having yveltal being Unviable because they cant handle Calyrex.

Overall Calyrex-Shadow is an unhealthy mon in the Ubers Meta and forces alot of restriction in teambuilding and therefore Should be BANNED from Ubers

 

[PeachJuiceOwO]

There's a lot of stuff in the thread that I've disagreed with so far but this is something I especially want to highlight and talk about, as it's pertinent go why CalyrexS shouldn't be banned.

Ubers is the tier with the fewest bans and it's the place with the highest power level. So much power that it's never been uncommon for pokemon here to be able to beat their own checks with set and EV tweaking. CalyS has certainly proven it can accomplish this vs its greatest nemesis Yveltal, but there's a very big difference with this situation vs ZacianC who also could best its supposed checks. ZacianC turned games into 50/50 guessfests with assurance and reduced skill and game quality with its presence. It wasn't just that it was obscenely strong. CalyS isn't at that level of breaking the tier. It's strong, the most centralizing force around. But does it decrease game quality? Is it reducing the skill level of games? I don't think so.



This is true of any choice user in any tier. The power level of Ubers simply amplifies the effect of this even more because of the centralized nature of the tier. Big threats enabling other big threats even in situations like this doesn't make them broken. Well, maybe in low tiers. But if we're talking about Ubers, there needs to be much better reasoning. And speaking of which...



I'm still unconvinced by the arguments around disable sets. The set winning in UPL proves it can still tech to beat its checks. But... So? So can many mons in Ubers. Historically so. The disable sets are the main thing I see people claiming pushes it over the edge, because it means no Yveltal is perfectly able to answer CalyS. And maybe that's true, but that's not unique to CalyS. Eternatus cannot be called a perfect or even that great of a Kyogre answer as it's possible to become set up fodder for certain CM sets (block CM) if it doesn't pack dragon tail. Other mons used to try and hand Ogre also struggle vs specs (even utility umbrella Blissey struggles when rocks are up).

Yes CalyS can beat its checks with the right set. But it has to be played well to do so. As was pointed out by Fc, it actually promotes skillful gameplay. It's not just some brainless threat like a certain wolf could be. There should be a higher standard for bans in Ubers than "it's restrictive and seriously strong. It can beat its best checks with certain sets" because many Uber pokemon can.

You say you don't understand why Ubers has this special treatment about tiering, but it is exactly because the tier allows as much as it does, that it's treated so different and special, that the tier has potentially the highest skill ceiling and quality of games. To ban something from Ubers, it should be destroying the balance of the tier like dynamax did. Or it should be uncompetitive like shadow tag which removed player autonomy from games, or how baton pass removed player interaction from games. And when it comes to actual pokemon bans, it should at least meet some kind of similar bar.

When Mega Rayquaza was banned in ORAS, it did so much to damage the tier, an impact I'd argue has yet to be matched. It was so good It made other megas obsolete. It invalidated playstyles. Your team was worse for not running it. And game quality was reduced tremendously while it was around.

ZacianC was straightforward in comparison but it too reduced game quality and forced overtly restrictive cores as a result of its power. And even then it wasn't enough as games came down to assurance 50/50s that were extraordinarily in the Zac players favor. While ZacianH was just too powerful right out. And was one prediction away from breaking a hole.

Calyrex-Shadow is undeniably restrictive and it has tools to beat its checks, even its best counter. But it can't just click buttons to do so. Games aren't down to skill less 50/50s. At least I don't think so. I find that skill is rewarded with CalyS and that it doesn't lower game quality. The logic used to ban CalyS isn't that different from logic used for OU bans. And that would just set the bar lower for what could be considered a problem in Ubers.

Finally, SwSh Ubers was dealt a rough hand through many circumstances, and it definitely sucks. But banning Calyrex-S isn't gonna magically improve that. Especially as it provides healthy and valuable qualities to the tier (reigning in HO, rare utility, speed control) that would go away if it left the tier. I don't think it's worth it especially when I find the mon doesn't hit the bar for banworthy in Ubers.

It might be true that using CalyrexS isn’t just mindlessly pushing buttons but what I think most people are complaining about is that its too in Calyrex’s favour. Calyrex’s best counter, Yvetal needs Snarl to not just straight up lose to SubSeed and this move has no utility elsewhere. TrickChoiceitem also forces Yveltal and its teammates into difficult situations. If Yveltal was only used to counter Shadow rider this probably wouldn’t be an issue but it also wants other moves to support its teammates and pull its weight. Calyrex-S is forcing the tier’s best Pokémon into using suboptimal sets that it would never run otherwise and if it doesn’t want to do this then your team will need an additional check (Blissey, Marshadow, Giratina-O) or it sweeps you. These other checks might not even work (Psyshock, no shadow sneak user can take a hit from Calyrex so loses if it has a Sub) I guess you could do FS marshadow but that’s a suboptimal set on its own. You can’t even say that these sets beat Caly all or even most of the time. It feels too restrictive even for Ubers and that’s why many people feel like the right thing to do is to just give AG another member. That’s what I’m getting from reading this thread and as a quite new Ubers player.

 

[arcexofficial]

Advocating for Calyrex shadow BAN


Reason: Calyrex-s is the prime example of a snow ball Pokemon. Players have to be extra care around it not only in battle but also in team building as a competition not well equipped to fight Calyrex-S will not make it long in a game.


First, lets go over some basics, Astral barrage is a ridiculous 120 BP attack (180 if you count stab) coming from a 165 special attack stat. That alone is enough to 2 hit KO nearly anything in the meta game that doesn’t invest into SpeDef. If that wasn’t enough, it has several coverage options to deal with anything that can fend off an astral barrage. Psyshock deals with Eternatus and Blissey wanting to eat up an astral barrage. Draining kiss can be a crucial recovery move if running life orb to help beat things that might try to stall it out. Leech seed combined with sub while not as immediate can help whittle down some threats and put them into astral barrage range. Finally, trick is another option to deal with checks. Removing Yveltal’s heavy duty boots or leftovers can be game changing and depending on the set Yeveltal has, can make it down right useless.
Set wise, it can run a lot of things that makes it even more ridiculous to check. Sub seed can stall out mons that are either attempting to stall it out or scare it off. Choice items can be used to beat counters that would normally check it. Most importantly, scarf and sash are very nasty as they not only beat the main checks but also beats other Calyrex shadow rider. Trust me when I say people will do anything to beat the calyrex war. From sash to scarf to even using a ditto to revenge kill and even snowball its self. That itself brings up a lot of problems.


Speaking of Yveltal, lets go over another point: Calyrex’s checks and counters


A very common argument for man people not wanting to can Calyrex is yveltal: Yveltal is a top Pokemon in Ubers to adding it on wouldn’t be a detriment. If anything, calyrex existing might be the reason it has a 90% use rate. Its not hard to figure out why: Yveltal is a dark type so that alone makes it a great check but it doesn’t end there. It can invest into SpeDef to tank even specs sets and has several moves to scare it off like knock off or even sucker punch to really strike terror into the horse. Plus it can use U turn on switch ins since 96% of the time, its scaring off Calyrex.

While all of these sound great. There are some things that Calyrex can do to counteract what Yveltal might do. The first thing is a sub seed set. It would wear down Yveltal and even if it roosts, Calyrex can exploit that with a nasty plot to make it even more of a game ender. At best, Yveltal U turns to another check check to Calyrex. At worst, its a long pointless battle that Calyrex will win if played well.


While there are other checks out there, they are not as effective as Yveltal.
One common thing that people do to counter calyrex is priority. Mons like marshadow and Giratina have shadow sneak to pick off most Calyrex. But sashes make them useless as it survives it and retaliate back with a OKHO. Sucker punch is another option that those prey on whether or not Calyrex is choice. They lose to a well timed sub and Urshifu in particular is one shot by draining kiss unlike Yveltal but as mentioned earlier that it can be tricked into move like sucker punch which can and will be exploited.


Other checks that people bring up is pressure stalling. Since Astral barrage has only 8 pp, its fairly easy to bring in a mon with pressure and pp stall it out. The main issue with that is most pressure users are not that common. Dialga and Palkia are niche at best and kyrem isn’t even used. What about Eternatus, surely it can tank a hit right? That is until you find out that Astral barrage from either a specs or a life orb is a guarantee 2HKO. Plus it has stab psyshock. Speaking of psyshock, it deals with another check which is Blissey



As for other dark types not named yveltal, Zamazenta of all mons rose in popularity as a really good partner for Calyrex. It checks a lot of dark types that would halt Calyrex and yes even yveltal is check by Zamazenta.



So in conclusion, Calyrex-s is incredibly restraining on the team building. You have to account for it no matter what otherwise gg go next. It’s not like the other big 3 where if you don’t have something then it’s gonna be a big pain. Calyrex goes above and beyond that; you NEED a Calyrex check other wise you WILL get 6-0 and even then its not enough. Not only does Calyrex have really good teammates to use. But the fact of the matter is. All it needs is one KO to change the momentum of a game. And its too easy with Calyrex.

 

[GeniusFromHoenn]

Hey everyone, GeniusFromHoenn here, and having performed quite well in the recent UPL , I wanted to make a post on the ongoing Calyrex-S suspect. There have been a couple of analogies comparing Calyrex-S to centralizing threats seen in previous generations of Ubers. To collectively summarize how many pro-ban tournament players feel:

"We've found a way to make the current generation of Ubers completely void of fun. It's a full step past 'solving the meta.' I did not enjoy watching any of SS Ubers in UPL aside from when people went out of their way to use non-standard mons in a desperate attempt to 'innovate.' In future UPLs, Calyrex-S will be the ORAS Darkrai, where no one knows why it's allowed, but everyone deals with it because of 'the mystique and tradition of Ubers."
At this point, most people who have achieved the requirements for voting have already made up their minds about Calyrex-S. For those of you who are still on the fence, I'd like to discuss three high-level tournament games that occurred after SiTuM's post:

Icemaster vs. Fc (UPL Semi's): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-637002

Interestingly, the so-called "counterplay" for Calyrex-S, consisting of Yveltal and Marshadow, got beaten by yet another novel Calyrex-S set (this time, it was a different spin on Specs and used Sub + NP to break). Notice how once the Yveltal gets tricked, the game effectively becomes a 6 vs. 5 in Fc's favor. After Calyrex-S set up a Substitute and acquired a single Nasty Plot boost, it could no longer be revenge killed by Marshadow. As a result, Calyrex-S swept Icemaster's otherwise solid Balance team.

There's not much else to be said that hasn't already been mentioned numerous times in this thread. Suppose every team has to carry Yveltal + Ho-Oh/Marsh/Blissey to deal with Calyrex-S. In that case, these structures can not only be exploited by multiple offensive threats, but Calyrex-S running the right set will almost always overcome and break these cores. Moreover, with Calyrex-S having the ability to choose over a half-dozen viable sets, not to mention variations in well-known sets that come off as 'innovation,' the Calyrex-S user will be at an advantage most of the time. Indeed, as their opponent spends time planning their gameplay around which set they lose to the fastest, the Calyrex-S user gains multiple opportunities to exploit this and place themselves in continually favorable positions, as seen in the game linked above.

Star vs. Trade (UPL Semi's): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-637266

Trade has a Yveltal, Ho-Oh, and Blissey, which forms perhaps the most robust defense against Calyrex-S in the current metagame. Realistically, there should be no way for Star to pressure Trade enough with Calyrex-S to win, right? Unfortunately, the sheer breaking power of Modest Specs Calyrex-S made it possible for Star to decimate Yveltal and slowly win the game by putting all of its teammates in an advantageous position. Watching the replay of this game reaffirms my feelings toward Calyrex-S, and it also exemplifies how Calyrex-S can set up an advantageous position for any of its teammates to take over. After Trade lost this game, our team in UPL was eliminated, so this game genuinely hits close to home.

LBN vs. The Strap (Uber's Homefield Advantage): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-637363

LBN has a Yveltal, Ho-Oh, and Marshadow. You'd think that he wouldn't lose to Calyrex-S, right? Wrong. In this game, you will see that Specs Trick + Disable Calyrex-S powers through LBN's team, despite being limited by the defensive core mentioned above and Astral Barrage's "low" 8 PP (8 PP is more than enough). This set has been criticized numerous times on the thread, yet people still don't seem to understand that this particular variation of Specs Calyrex-S is best used as a mid-to-end game-breaker. Indeed, Calyrex-S can sweep during the endgame once a pivotal component of the opponent's defensive backbone (be it Yveltal, Ho-Oh, or even Eternatus) has been crippled by Trick.

These games demonstrate that despite the "counterplay" that has been previously mentioned, in practice, Calyrex-S has enough diversity and versatility to break through any combination of its checks with surprising ease. Sure, it can't end a game as quickly as its banned predecessor Zacian could. However, Calyrex-S makes up for its ability to cripple an opponent's defensive backbone and overwhelm its most common checks, leaving gaping holes for its common offensive partners to thrive on and potentially sweep. For all these reasons and more, I am leaning toward banning Calyrex-S, and I implore you to do the same if you strive to achieve a healthier SS Ubers tier. Gen 8 undoubtedly handed Ubers a shitty hand, and it's up to us to collectively make the correct tiering decision as we advance toward the end of the generation. I hope you enjoyed the read!

 

[Ben Simmons]

Hey everyone, GeniusFromHoenn here, and having performed quite well in the recent UPL , I wanted to make a post on the ongoing Calyrex-S suspect. There have been a couple of analogies comparing Calyrex-S to centralizing threats seen in previous generations of Ubers. To collectively summarize how many pro-ban tournament players feel:

"We've found a way to make the current generation of Ubers completely void of fun. It's a full step past 'solving the meta.' I did not enjoy watching any of SS Ubers in UPL aside from when people went out of their way to use non-standard mons in a desperate attempt to 'innovate.' In future UPLs, Calyrex-S will be the ORAS Darkrai, where no one knows why it's allowed, but everyone deals with it because of 'the mystique and tradition of Ubers."
At this point, most people who have achieved the requirements for voting have already made up their minds about Calyrex-S. For those of you who are still on the fence, I'd like to discuss three high-level tournament games that occurred after SiTuM's post:

Icemaster vs. Fc (UPL Semi's): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-637002

Interestingly, the so-called "counterplay" for Calyrex-S, consisting of Yveltal and Marshadow, got beaten by yet another novel Calyrex-S set (this time, it was a different spin on Specs and used Sub + NP to break). Notice how once the Yveltal gets tricked, the game effectively becomes a 6 vs. 5 in Fc's favor. After Calyrex-S set up a Substitute and acquired a single Nasty Plot boost, it could no longer be revenge killed by Marshadow. As a result, Calyrex-S swept Icemaster's otherwise solid Balance team.

There's not much else to be said that hasn't already been mentioned numerous times in this thread. Suppose every team has to carry Yveltal + Ho-Oh/Marsh/Blissey to deal with Calyrex-S. In that case, these structures can not only be exploited by multiple offensive threats, but Calyrex-S running the right set will almost always overcome and break these cores. Moreover, with Calyrex-S having the ability to choose over a half-dozen viable sets, not to mention variations in well-known sets that come off as 'innovation,' the Calyrex-S user will be at an advantage most of the time. Indeed, as their opponent spends time planning their gameplay around which set they lose to the fastest, the Calyrex-S user gains multiple opportunities to exploit this and place themselves in continually favorable positions, as seen in the game linked above.

Star vs. Trade (UPL Semi's): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-637266

Trade has a Yveltal, Ho-Oh, and Blissey, which forms perhaps the most robust defense against Calyrex-S in the current metagame. Realistically, there should be no way for Star to pressure Trade enough with Calyrex-S to win, right? Unfortunately, the sheer breaking power of Modest Specs Calyrex-S made it possible for Star to decimate Yveltal and slowly win the game by putting all of its teammates in an advantageous position. Watching the replay of this game reaffirms my feelings toward Calyrex-S, and it also exemplifies how Calyrex-S can set up an advantageous position for any of its teammates to take over. After Trade lost this game, our team in UPL was eliminated, so this game genuinely hits close to home.

LBN vs. The Strap (Uber's Homefield Advantage): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-637363

LBN has a Yveltal, Ho-Oh, and Marshadow. You'd think that he wouldn't lose to Calyrex-S, right? Wrong. In this game, you will see that Specs Trick + Disable Calyrex-S powers through LBN's team, despite being limited by the defensive core mentioned above and Astral Barrage's "low" 8 PP (8 PP is more than enough). This set has been criticized numerous times on the thread, yet people still don't seem to understand that this particular variation of Specs Calyrex-S is best used as a mid-to-end game-breaker. Indeed, Calyrex-S can sweep during the endgame once a pivotal component of the opponent's defensive backbone (be it Yveltal, Ho-Oh, or even Eternatus) has been crippled by Trick.

These games demonstrate that despite the "counterplay" that has been previously mentioned, in practice, Calyrex-S has enough diversity and versatility to break through any combination of its checks with surprising ease. Sure, it can't end a game as quickly as its banned predecessor Zacian could. However, Calyrex-S makes up for its ability to cripple an opponent's defensive backbone and overwhelm its most common checks, leaving gaping holes for its common offensive partners to thrive on and potentially sweep. For all these reasons and more, I am leaning toward banning Calyrex-S, and I implore you to do the same if you strive to achieve a healthier SS Ubers tier. Gen 8 undoubtedly handed Ubers a shitty hand, and it's up to us to collectively make the correct tiering decision as we advance toward the end of the generation. I hope you enjoyed the read!
[/QUOT

Hello it's me, LE CHOUINAY :joy: Legion Leader Jeff Mewtwo Zidane, and I am probably the only person on the council voting Ban for Calyrex-S.

Having finished 6-1 in the most recent UPL, I feel more qualified to answer than almost everyone who has made comments on this thread thus far. There is no doubt, Fc, Aberforth, and especially Manaphy, have brought up fair points about why Calyrex-S should or should not be banned. However, I want to take the time to explain why I believe it should be banned, and this begins with the severe restriction it has on the builder.



That's utterly false.

Number of Tyranitar used in this tournament: 2. Number of wins: 0.
Number of Zarude used in this tournament: 3. Number of wins: 2.
So 40% winrate for using a Calyrex check that's not Yveltal. Not very good, huh? (Not even gonna count the fact that these two have only been used in 5 games out of 84.)

You can run whatever you want on a team, but the reality is, Yveltal is the best check to Calyrex-S—using anything else as your primary check makes your team sub-optimal in modern SS Ubers. Almost every team in SS Ubers is running the Yvel/Etern/NDM core, and trying to be fancy and deviating away from this core will ultimately make your team weaker to standard balance match-ups. Structures that elect to use Tyranitar or Zarude as their primary Calyrex-S check end up being weaker to common threats like DD Zekrom, Marshadow, and SD + 3 Attacks Don, which are common partners for Calyrex-S. You don't just lose to some niche sets/mons; you lose to frequently seen threats.



Dedicating four team slots to account for common metagame threats is awfully reminiscent of the Zacian-H metagame (anyone remember Yvel/Etern/NDM + Regen Pivot?). Yes, Calyrex-S cannot end the game as quickly as Zacian-H did. But what people don't seem to realize is that this game is not a 1v6. Calyrex-S has devastating offensive partners such as Groudon, Zekrom, and Marshadow. Now, let's closely take a look at each of the common combinations of adequate ways to check Calyrex-S.

Pairing Calyrex with either Groudon or Zekrom means passive cores (Yveltal + Ho-Oh and Blissey) are easier to remove in practice. Marshadow can power through Ho-Oh, too, if it carries Rock Tomb. Whirlwind Ho-Oh is something interesting you brought up. More and more Ho-Oh are forgoing Whirlwind to fit in Brave Bird (for better dueling power against Eternatus), thus making Ho-Oh's most popular move combination Sacred Fire (or Flare Blitz), Brave Bird, Thunder Wave, and Defog. Having to run Whirlwind Ho-Oh to deal with Calyrex-S isn't optimal either, for the reasons BasedWhat? mentioned, as Calyrex-S can simply power through it or have one of its teammates use it as a setup opportunity. Zarude usage plummeted with an 1 increase in Fire Move Groudon, and interestingly, it can't even properly check Modest Specs Calyrex-S, as it risks getting 3HKO'd by it. Taunt Yveltal + Marshadow (or a fast scarfer) is a short-term solution against Calyrex-Shadow, but running Taunt Yveltal on Balance means it is only running one attacking move, which is liable to be exploited by Disable or Trick + Protect Calyrex-S.

When we look at bulky Yveltal sets, people fail to realize that their opposing Hyper Offensive match-up becomes significantly more difficult, if not impossible, to win. This is not an exaggeration; successful Balance teams must be able to overcome the Hyper Offense matchup, and running a bulky Yveltal makes it more difficult to do so.

Yveltal is currently the most popular Defogger in the tier, possessing an excellent speed tier. Unfortunately, slow Yveltal loses the ability to neutralize the Hazard War, as faster Yveltal can simply Taunt it. Even dual defog cores consisting of bulky Yveltal + Ho-Oh cannot eliminate hazards, as faster threats such as Zekrom and Groudon can use their switchins as setup opportunities and possibly end the game on the spot.

Perhaps what does is it for me is the fact that using Bulky Yveltal isn't even a surefire countermeasure to deal with Calyrex-S. Observe the following calculation against a +2 Modest Caly:

+2 252+ SpA Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 210-248 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO

This is a roll in the Calyrex-S user's favor. If the Yveltal is below 92% of health, which happens quite frequently in practice, it loses the ability to deal with +2 Calyrex-S. Indeed, the Yveltal has to be at nearly full health to have the ability to tank two +2 Draining Kisses. This is not a sign of a healthy mon in the slightest. I featured this calculation because running bulky Yveltal alone is insufficient to deal with Calyrex-S on Hyper Offense. Only bulky Yveltal that carry Snarl can deal with this variant of Calyrex-S, but Snarl has next to no utility, and you're losing coverage on what could be an otherwise important move like U-Turn for momentum generation or Taunt. Sucker Punch, unfortunately, gets beaten by Disable, which is something many NP Calyrex-S carry these days.

I've read many posts that disregarded the potency of Specs Trick + Protect + Disable/NP Calyrex-S, but there are at least three high-level UPL games where the Calyrex-S just wins on the spot against Yveltal and proceeds to end the game:

TJ vs Stresh SS Week 5: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-633664

LBN vs pdt SS Week 5: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-632384

Hoenn vs Jonfilch SS Semis: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-636613

Notice that neither Stresh nor Jonfilch abided by the combinations that Manaphy suggested (I won't talk about LBN's team choice because it's unviable). Does that mean that their teams are automatically bad? Absolutely not. Nevertheless, in an attempt to run more diverse and versatile builds, they sacrificed their Calyrex-S match-up and proceeded to lose to it. That is not the sign of a healthy mon. It is beyond overcentralizing at this point. Calyrex-S forces you to use one of the cores listed above, and those cores are subject to getting decimated by the combination of Calyrex-S and any of its frequent joint offense partners. Whether you agree with it or not, the restriction Calyrex-S currently imposes on the builder is frighteningly similar to that of Zacian-H (in the sense that only a few builds are actually viable at this point). This is further compounded by the fact that Calyrex-S can run multiple different sets, and as Manaphy put it best, "the right Calyrex-S set will always beat the wrong Yveltal set."



This is probably the most misleading take in the entire thread (and there are some genuinely awful takes). Anyone who plays SS Ubers at a high level knows that Calyrex-S dictates tournament play, as evidenced by its usage and sheer power. Let's look at some relevant replays in this year's UPL where Calyrex-S was used and dictated high-level tournament play:

Byron vs. Sharow SS Bo3 Week 1: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-627254 (Sharow's Yveltal got para'd turn 1, and no longer could check Caly in the game. You'd think a team with Yveltal + Giratina-O would be able to deal with Calyrex-S, right?)

BluBird vs Tony SS Week 2: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-628750 (Yveltal got chipped enough throughout the course of the game, where Tony's Specs Calyrex-S could just clean up.)

Suapah vs Sage SS Week 2: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-628863 (This is an interesting game. It shows that even though Yveltal has Taunt, it could potentially get chipped enough to the point where +2 SubSeed Caly can power through it. Sage feared Sucker Punch on Yveltal, but if they had gotten the 50-50 right, the game would have ended right there. Unfortunately, Sage didn't risk it. More than likely, the Yveltal didn't have it either since Suapah probably ran U-Turn to pivot into Marshadow.)

LBN vs Skarph SS Week 2: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-628416 (Did you ever think a Scarf Calyrex-S would power through and beat a team with both Yveltal and Blissey? Hint: look what happens)

Goat Heart vs. Gondra Bo3 SS Week 2: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-629056 (As soon as Gondra's Yveltal got para'd and lost HDB - game over. To expect Yveltal to stay healthy at 100% throughout the game to check Calyrex-S is absurd, and Goat Heart capitalized on that).

Gondra vs Star Bo3 SS Week 6: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-634994 (Tricking with Calyrex-S just puts the Caly user in an immediate advantage, as the game effectively becomes a 5v6. There's not much else to say here; besides, Scarf Calyrex-S still has its niche.)

Welli0u vs Skarph Bo3 SS Week 7: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-636087 (This game doesn't actually feature a Caly sweep but shows what one of its most common partners - Groudon - can end up doing to Yveltal.)

As evidenced by these replays, Calyrex-S clearly dictates high-level play in prestigious tours, and yet, teams that prepare against it still lose at an alarming rate (looking at Calyrex-S win rates in the recent Ubers Open further corroborates this).

I think one of the biggest reasons why people (especially those leaning toward anti-ban) feel Calyrex-S isn't as broken as its predecessor Zacian is that it cannot end a game as quickly, nor is it as restrictive. With Zacian, any player was one Assurance or Choice Banded hit from losing the game. However, Calyrex-S can do similar things, and the only way it is kept in check is if Yveltal and other vital parts of your opponent's defensive backbone are fully healthy. Scenarios like this rarely occur in practice. To put it bluntly, Yveltal and Eternatus are the most likely mons to lose their item or get afflicted by status in a vacuum. A well-played Calyrex-S can take advantage of your opponent's defensive backbone at any point in the game. It has too many sets to account for, and no single team can viably cover them all (remember, stacking Caly checks makes you weak to its common offensive partners). Before saying that every threat in Ubers can potentially do this, remember that Calyrex-S has a combination of Base 150 speed, over a half-dozen viable sets, and the ability to snowball faster than anything else we have seen in this generation of Ubers. Its restrictiveness on the builder is comparable to that of Zacian-H. Do I believe Calyrex-S is necessarily broken? Not quite. Do I believe Calyrex-S should be banned for all the reasons I mentioned above? Yes.

On another note, we cannot meaningfully predict what the new metagame will look like, but I am almost certain every team will still run some permutation of Yvel/Etern/NDM (because that core is probably the most solid core in DLC2 SS Ubers). If a Caly-less tier ends up being extremely volatile and even worse than the one we have right now, it is certainly possible to re-suspect it before the middle of November since Ubers is a tier now. We'll just have to wait and find out, but I implore all of you to consider the points I brought up and make an informed decision. It is truly disheartening and unfortunate how many misguided and low-quality posts made by certain users detracted from the overall purpose of this thread.

As a high-level tour player and member of the SS Ubers Council, I genuinely feel the removal of Calyrex-S will introduce a breath of fresh air that this tier desperately needs. Otherwise, building teams will continue to remain a stale nightmare, since you're forced to use up four slots just to not lose to one ghost horse. I hope you enjoyed the read!

Hey everyone, GeniusFromHoenn here, and having performed quite well in the recent UPL , I wanted to make a post on the ongoing Calyrex-S suspect. There have been a couple of analogies comparing Calyrex-S to centralizing threats seen in previous generations of Ubers. To collectively summarize how many pro-ban tournament players feel:

"We've found a way to make the current generation of Ubers completely void of fun. It's a full step past 'solving the meta.' I did not enjoy watching any of SS Ubers in UPL aside from when people went out of their way to use non-standard mons in a desperate attempt to 'innovate.' In future UPLs, Calyrex-S will be the ORAS Darkrai, where no one knows why it's allowed, but everyone deals with it because of 'the mystique and tradition of Ubers."
At this point, most people who have achieved the requirements for voting have already made up their minds about Calyrex-S. For those of you who are still on the fence, I'd like to discuss three high-level tournament games that occurred after SiTuM's post:

Icemaster vs. Fc (UPL Semi's): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-637002

Interestingly, the so-called "counterplay" for Calyrex-S, consisting of Yveltal and Marshadow, got beaten by yet another novel Calyrex-S set (this time, it was a different spin on Specs and used Sub + NP to break). Notice how once the Yveltal gets tricked, the game effectively becomes a 6 vs. 5 in Fc's favor. After Calyrex-S set up a Substitute and acquired a single Nasty Plot boost, it could no longer be revenge killed by Marshadow. As a result, Calyrex-S swept Icemaster's otherwise solid Balance team.

There's not much else to be said that hasn't already been mentioned numerous times in this thread. Suppose every team has to carry Yveltal + Ho-Oh/Marsh/Blissey to deal with Calyrex-S. In that case, these structures can not only be exploited by multiple offensive threats, but Calyrex-S running the right set will almost always overcome and break these cores. Moreover, with Calyrex-S having the ability to choose over a half-dozen viable sets, not to mention variations in well-known sets that come off as 'innovation,' the Calyrex-S user will be at an advantage most of the time. Indeed, as their opponent spends time planning their gameplay around which set they lose to the fastest, the Calyrex-S user gains multiple opportunities to exploit this and place themselves in continually favorable positions, as seen in the game linked above.

Star vs. Trade (UPL Semi's): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-637266

Trade has a Yveltal, Ho-Oh, and Blissey, which forms perhaps the most robust defense against Calyrex-S in the current metagame. Realistically, there should be no way for Star to pressure Trade enough with Calyrex-S to win, right? Unfortunately, the sheer breaking power of Modest Specs Calyrex-S made it possible for Star to decimate Yveltal and slowly win the game by putting all of its teammates in an advantageous position. Watching the replay of this game reaffirms my feelings toward Calyrex-S, and it also exemplifies how Calyrex-S can set up an advantageous position for any of its teammates to take over. After Trade lost this game, our team in UPL was eliminated, so this game genuinely hits close to home.

LBN vs. The Strap (Uber's Homefield Advantage): https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ubers-637363

LBN has a Yveltal, Ho-Oh, and Marshadow. You'd think that he wouldn't lose to Calyrex-S, right? Wrong. In this game, you will see that Specs Trick + Disable Calyrex-S powers through LBN's team, despite being limited by the defensive core mentioned above and Astral Barrage's "low" 8 PP (8 PP is more than enough). This set has been criticized numerous times on the thread, yet people still don't seem to understand that this particular variation of Specs Calyrex-S is best used as a mid-to-end game-breaker. Indeed, Calyrex-S can sweep during the endgame once a pivotal component of the opponent's defensive backbone (be it Yveltal, Ho-Oh, or even Eternatus) has been crippled by Trick.

These games demonstrate that despite the "counterplay" that has been previously mentioned, in practice, Calyrex-S has enough diversity and versatility to break through any combination of its checks with surprising ease. Sure, it can't end a game as quickly as its banned predecessor Zacian could. However, Calyrex-S makes up for its ability to cripple an opponent's defensive backbone and overwhelm its most common checks, leaving gaping holes for its common offensive partners to thrive on and potentially sweep. For all these reasons and more, I am leaning toward banning Calyrex-S, and I implore you to do the same if you strive to achieve a healthier SS Ubers tier. Gen 8 undoubtedly handed Ubers a shitty hand, and it's up to us to collectively make the correct tiering decision as we advance toward the end of the generation. I hope you enjoyed the read!

I find many of the arguments on this thread to be somewhat disingenuous. However, what shocks me is several people leaning toward 'No Ban' saying that Calyrex-S promotes skillful gameplay and only wins when put in a position to do so. After looking at all the games SiTuM and GeniusFromHoenn linked, I realized the following:

• Using Calyrex-S makes it exceedingly easy to favorably position its user at any point in the game, more so toward the middle or endgame. Once it gets off a Trick, Calyrex-S has effectively crippled a fundamental part of the opponent's defensive backbone. Additionally, the Calyrex-S user has multiple opportunities to exploit their opponent's gameplay since their opponent should fear which set they lose to the fastest. However, the variations in sets make predicting Calyrex-S much more challenging. For example, using a damage calculator, one can reasonably infer if the opposing Calyrex-S is Specs. However, Specs Calyrex-S can run multiple viable sets ranging from Disable, Sub NP, or standard Aroma. If the opponent guesses the wrong set, they can be placed in an unfavorable or losing position. This does not include the fact that Timid and Modest Specs Calyrex-S have similar rolls, so a Modest Calyrex-S getting a low roll with Astral Barrage (comparable to Timid Calyrex-S) can surprisingly KO a Fast Utility Yveltal if it is not careful.
• On top of that, positioning Calyrex-S to win an endgame is about as easy as positioning its previously banned predecessor, Zacian-H. Recall that in the Zacian-H meta, a player had to predict between clicking Close Combat or a coverage move to deal with Regenerator Pivots to place itself (or its teammates) in a favorable position. Calyrex-S has an arguably easier time doing this because its premier check is the tier's best form of hazard removal. This brings me to my next point.
• To not lose the hazard war, players will often resort to bringing out their defogger at some point to remove hazards. At this time, checks to Calyrex-S such as Yveltal and Ho-Oh are most likely to get statused or lose their item when they try to click Defog. A player may end up removing hazards at the cost of having a "check" that can no longer do its job. Should they ignore the hazards, they ultimately lose the long game, as losing HDB means everything gets worn down over time.
• To summarize, the sheer diversity and versatility of Calyrex-S can exploit its opponent's gameplay and set up multiple opportunities to win games (or place its teammates in a highly favorable position to do so). The thirteen games that SiTuM and Hoenn linked showcase this. Even if Calyrex-S does not win on its own, its oppressiveness makes it so easy for the user to win via the process described above, which in my humble opinion, makes it unhealthy for SS Ubers.
• Therefore, Calyrex-S should be banned from SS Ubers. Thanks for reading my spiel.

 

[Oqo]

ban this. Caly is both fast and incredibly powerful, and has only one good counter (something that can counter it while not being dogshit) in the tier, aka yveltal, and yveltal can still be cracked open with trick or sash dkiss. This mon both restrict teambuilding, and is unfair in the game because it can crack through the one thing that checks it, and then destroy everything else because it is so fast and hits so strong. There is not much that can revenge kill it because of its speed, especially since if it's full life it can often take one hit, meaning you have to chip it and use a scarfer or use a shadow sneak/sucker punch user. This limits counterplay even further by restricting what can rk it and what cannot.

No pokemon should be that strong and that fast while having only one good counter (which it can break throught).

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

There have been multiple high quality pro-ban posts recently, but for those people who didn’t change their mind, let me show you why many anti-ban arguments are shit.

CalyS can be comparable to RBY Tauros, GSC Snorlac and DPP Kyogre
This argument is honestly, disturbing. It is obviously misleading, because your comparing it from previous generations

I'm a little concerned about all of the dubious analogies and comparisons being made from other pokemon in previous generations without much analysis of the things CalyS does in tournaments or how its checks actually aim to deal with it. Even moreso that some people are taking that as their primary reasoning to be for or against banning it. Not that it's not helpful to maybe provide some context for the type of mon CalyS is but its role in Ubers is pretty unique and unprecedented and it would be a shame if results got skewed one way or another because someone wanted to chime in and compare it to LC Vullaby or something

This explains it further, although I disagree with its role in Ubers.

Yveltal is such a good counter that it’s unbreakable to CalyS
No. Other than it’s common teammates running super effective moves (Groudon and Marshadow run rock moves to hit Ho-Oh, the side effect of it being effective against Yveltal, while Zekrom’s 130 base power no drawback (other than accuracy) electric move is stab), CalyS can use Trick to ruin it, or use disable. A choice Yveltal that is disabled will 100% have to switch, allowing CalyS to get a free switch or to land a free hit with Astral Barrage. If that Switchin gets OHKO’d, CalyS gets +1 SPATK, so it has insane snowballing potential.

The YEN core will only get stronger, CalyS helps pressure it.
PLEASE, the metagame isn’t predictable (like what SiTuM said in his post) and X beats Y, so if X is banned Y is broken argument is shit. Ban Y

I stated many but I’m too lazy lol

 

[DeluxeFries]

I think that Calyrex S should be banned

Let me start this by saying that I am not a very well versed Ubers player. While I have played it a bit in the last few days, I am not a great player. But I think I have some 2 main points about the subject I wanted to share.

1. It is very easy to get small pieces onto Calyrex-S counters. If you were to get a knock off onto Yveltal, which is not impossible, stealth rocks start chipping it and Calyrex-S is now putting on a lot of pressure. Also things like marshadow’s shadow sneak and a Necrozma dusk mane iron head become other parts that can chip Yveltal down, which make it heck to stay out of certain ranges. This can get compounded by boosts (nasty plot, calm mind) or specs. This goes in to my second point which is that 2. It has incredible snowball potential. As one means if your opponent slips up just once, the game can be in jeopardy, because it’s extremely fast, has a boost and becomes far harder to wall. Also the power of getting a lucky crit on Yveltal for a boost and sweeping can be infuriating. In conclusion, I think that in a offensive tier where you cant just keep your Calyrex-S counters in the back just so they will be ready to to counter Calyrex-S.

 

[Garrett]

The thread only gets funnier from both sides. I'll do a final roundup of things on my mind (from the better posts).

Saying that Kyogre can't snowball as well is Calyrex is nonsense. This wasn't the only game where it just 6-0d on lead either, you can see that happened in Fc's finals match vs crying. But anyways, that isn't the topic. Calyrex is. From what I have seen in UPL, Calyrex honestly isn't broken. Like Fc said, its a mon that promotes skillfull gameplay just like any other Pokémon in Ubers and the fact that it restricts the builder isn't that much of a point since you can always outplay the Caly in the game without much fuss if you're good. It's utility and presence is a good thing for the tier.

Kyogre is a good point, and speaks moreso to a greater issue of current Ubers: a tier where certain sets linger as "auto-wins." No one thinks Kyogre or (trapping) Zygarde is broken, but I think anyone on either side with a brain will agree that we're playing in a generation with Ubers with so few functional mons and even fewer means of stopping the variety of sets these mons carry. Someone brought up that Trick + Disable sets are suspectible to Eternatus, and in a vaccuum they are. Half of teams this generation drop quickly to Offensive Eternatus "even though NDM is Specially Defensive on balance" because of Spikes and the fact that games are not played in vacuums where everything can be kept unstatused and at 100% health at all times.

That being said,

I'm a little concerned about all of the dubious analogies and comparisons being made from other pokemon in previous generations without much analysis of the things CalyS does in tournaments or how its checks actually aim to deal with it. Even moreso that some people are taking that as their primary reasoning to be for or against banning it.

Some of the comparisons such as RBY Tauros are for sure very bizarre and fail to encompass the speed-tier control and sweeping potential that Calyrex-S has and ultimately controls. Truthfully, I think the closest we have to SS Ubers right now is BW OU. They share the similarities of:

• Few distinct playstyles that have known, almost sequentially memorized matchups
• The "broken checks broken" mentality where a special, select few players that main it insist it's high-level gameplay and not high octane, uncompetitive meandering
• The rest of the playerbase jaded about a SpDef Dark type, but this point is a joke

It's not a perfect comparison between tiers. It's something to think about. I can't entirely blame people that bring a 3 Caly-S checks and lose to 3 attacks Groudon, Block Salac Ogre, random Zekrom, random GeoXern, random Offensive Etern, etc. despite playing well. In the builder, one eventually commits. In a tier where half your mons are identical to the opponent's, at some point I draw the line between fair outprepping and bullshit. Caly-S preys on this meta's homogeneity. There is a clear odd mon out in creating such a strangehold on SS Ubers.

"We've found a way to make the current generation of Ubers completely void of fun. It's a full step past 'solving the meta.' I did not enjoy watching any of SS Ubers in UPL aside from when people went out of their way to use non-standard mons in a desperate attempt to 'innovate.' In future UPLs, Calyrex-S will be the ORAS Darkrai, where no one knows why it's allowed, but everyone deals with it because of 'the mystique and tradition of Ubers."

I wish you were wrong. It's going to be hard to watch SS Ubers in UPL in the future if Calyrex-S is not banned; we're nearly at the meme point of "having a perfect 6 mons to bring every game" with cores such as Lando-T + Kyogre + Marshadow/Calyrex-Shadow being common knowledge. As someone that built too much this final DLC, it's a shame to see how not far we've come.

That’s what I’m getting from reading this thread and as a quite new Ubers player.

Cockatiels are a great bird, welcome to Ubers.

Calyrex-S forces you to use one of the cores listed above, and those cores are subject to getting decimated by the combination of Calyrex-S and any of its frequent joint offense partners... [t]his is further compounded by the fact that Calyrex-S can run multiple different sets, and as Manaphy put it best, "the right Calyrex-S set will always beat the wrong Yveltal set."

It's dire when the French have some of the best posts. I don't believe people truly get that there is no real difference between rolling a die for a specific number, and loading one of the only 6 viable team structures with a specific Yveltal set and """JUST NOT OUTPLAYING""" Calyrex-S. Fat Yveltal? Lose to Disable. Fast Yveltal? Lose to one of the Specs or SubSeed sets or some (albeit less) Disable sets, or lose a Sucker Punch 50/50.

I'll leave it with the fact that damage calcs far more than half the time are useless in describing what Caly-S does in wrecking havoc. Caly-S wins because damage calcs cannot describe status, strict hazard play, the fact that this is not a tier where Yveltal can assuredly stay at 100%, losing Boots (Trick 50/50s are not actually competitive when they decide games!) and taking hazards, and its sheer freedom to dictate exactly when (by virtue of its speed and offensive prowess) it wants to finally overpower Yveltal. These factors are the real Yveltal killers.

If we need to ban offensive Yveltal and/or Mewtwo next, we'll do that too (obvious hyperbole btw). If they're not broken, we won't ban them! Better late than never--we should be willing to analyze all of anything with care and talk it out, and then work from there. I don't care how many bans it takes to create an enjoyable, actually competitive tier with genuine opportunities for high-level play. We are not there.

 

[Lasen]

It's dire when the French have some of the best posts.

Yeah well articulated by NONE OTHER than SiTuM,,,


Anyhow, to make this post not get deleted: the homogenous nature of SS Ubers that BasedWhat speaks of doesn't just make you lose to Calyrex-S because you "only" brought Yveltal, but also makes you lose to the most unviable niche sets that only 1/1000 persons will run. Life Orb Zygarde is gonna take you to flavortown if your Xerneas is chipped, while Sub sets are gonna decimate you if you run Ground resist Lando-T. Hell, after the Zacian ban there was a period where CB Buzzwole would net you wins. This is yhe nature of the tier, unfortunately, and the only viable solution is to simply erase it from our memory and play a good gen like BW where MU fishing is non-existent.

 

[MMII]

My ss ubers is very lacking and at least 2 upls old, now. Decided to go for reqs cause I care about Ubers even if I don't care about SS Ubers. There's new Caly-s techs (well new for me) that are kinda annoying for robbing games. I felt like you don't want your Yveltal to be Defog so that you can run a set that's more consistent vs all the Caly variants + still be strong.

That said, I lost far more frequently to Glare (or Flamethrower burns, lol) than any Caly-S cheese. Caly risk/reward is really stupid but it takes a lot of work + building stipulations before the safe lines start to get too shaky vs it. I can certainly understand how folks might not find that gameplay engaging, regardless of if it falls under what most would consider broken or not.

Building wise, I have a hard time seeing what a Caly ban would really open up in terms of fresh structures. Nearly every team is still going to run Yveltal, it's just the best Pokemon in the metagame. Except, without Caly around, what you can run on your Yveltal becomes very, very open. I reckon we'll see the same YEN teams except with a lot of scary offensive Yveltal balance variants. As it stands, Eternatus is a great Yveltal check unless you are fighting double dark cores. With a Calyrex ban, though, that just won't be nearly as consistent so there will be a greater need to put a Fairy-type on all your teams. Maybe I'm wrong on that and we just end up seeing Yveltal sets that check offensive Yveltal variants for teams that really don't want to dedicate an entire slot to check them.

Honestly, I think this is just what SS Ubers is always going to look like. Without Arceus in the format, you just can't ever really justify straying from the already established archetypes. There's too few good staple mons to mix and mash between and the ones that are there are REALLY good at what they do.

 

[Reje]

Honestly, I think this is just what SS Ubers is always going to look like. Without Arceus in the format, you just can't ever really justify straying from the already established archetypes. There's too few good staple mons to mix and mash between and the ones that are there are REALLY good at what they do.

on that note my proposed solution is just ignoring cartridge and allowing arceus :)

 

[Aberforth]

I have significant issues with the posts largely based on replays that were posted by Situm and Hoenn. I'll get to the points I want to make about the replays themselves in a moment.

Otherwise, building teams will continue to remain a stale nightmare, since you're forced to use up four slots just to not lose to one ghost horse. I hope you enjoyed the read!

There's not much else to be said that hasn't already been mentioned numerous times in this thread. Suppose every team has to carry Yveltal + Ho-Oh/Marsh/Blissey to deal with Calyrex-S.

First and foremost, the idea that teams have to run 4 pokemon to be solid against Calyrex is farcical. Situm quoted Manaphy listing 4 combinations of two mons (all involving Yveltal) that should take on most if not all Calyrex running around, the idea that every team requires Ho-oh + Marshadow + Blissey in addition to Yveltal in order to be safe against Calyrex is just not an accurate reflection of the metagame.

Anyway, the replays that both Hoenn and Situm have chosen are presented in such a way that ignores all player decision making in the games. They are acting like it is Calyrex and Calyrex alone that makes the difference, when in reality it came down to decisions made in the game, which is (IMO) a good thing. Games being decided entirely in the builder is a bad thing for any metagame, and my opinion is that Calyrex's effect on the meta is such that games are decided in the builder less, unless you actively choose to go fishing with a Calyrex set that basically begs for very specific Yveltal as the only counterplay, which in my opinion is very unreliable. If Calyrex was completely useless against common good cores like Ho-oh + Yveltal, it would be down alongside things like Lando-I or Caly-I in viability. Counterplay doesnt mean that a pokemon is invalidated as a threat and cannot win any game, it means that the games will come down to decisions the players make.

For every example of Calyrex breaking through teams, replays can be provided where it is underwhelming, or replays can be provided with other ubers doing similar things (think Kyogre's various sets, or for a more direct example, my Eternatus against Suapah). The replays show Calyrex's highest points without acknowledging that those are not the standard instances, and are instead good showcases of players playing well with a good pokemon (or, in some replays, people playing badly around a good pokemon). The replays also do not convince me that Calyrex exists at a power level above the aformetioned mons, most especially NDM/Xern/Groudon and Kyogre, who all are very dangerous threats even against prepared teams, because this is the power level we choose to play at. Yes, Calyrex wins in most of the replays that were hand picked to show it doing well, but the posts talking about them do not convince me that it is exceptional in doing so, especially in this ubers metagame.

Even in games where Calyrex has arguably the perfect set, it can and will lose depending on player interaction. In my game against Luthier I brought Sash Caly with Disable against a Yveltal that had only one attacking move, and no other ghost resist. He managed to outplay me with his Yveltal and win despite me literally rolling a perfect Calyrex-Yveltal matchup. These are the sorts of games where pro-ban players will point out the ways I could have played better, but the games where Calyrex does win they will pretend that the losing player had no outs because Calyrex was simply too powerful. It's disingenuous and dishonest. Calyrex promotes skillful in game play while (IMO) not being too restrictive on the builder, and this is something I believe is good for the tier. I also just do not agree with the idea that Calyrex is broken, and am thus voting Do Not Ban.

"We've found a way to make the current generation of Ubers completely void of fun. It's a full step past 'solving the meta.' I did not enjoy watching any of SS Ubers in UPL aside from when people went out of their way to use non-standard mons in a desperate attempt to 'innovate.' In future UPLs, Calyrex-S will be the ORAS Darkrai, where no one knows why it's allowed, but everyone deals with it because of 'the mystique and tradition of Ubers."

I still find SS ubers fun, and despite the quote that Hoenn has seemingly pulled out of nowhere, the general Ubers community is in agreement with me. The idea that SS ubers has become unfun is one that is shared by a relatively loud minority of the Ubers community, and the idea that the meta is solved is one I find almost laughable in its hyperbole. Disable was essentially not used until the start of this UPL, and the Ubers metagame has experienced significant shifts since the Zacian-H ban, and will almost certainly do so again with SCL looming.

I made my personal stance clear on what I am voting and why in my last post, I am making this more to address the arguments made on this page thus far that were based on replays as well as just getting some of my thoughts out.

Also finally, to address a comment BasedWhat made, we will not be banning anything else should Calyrex-S be banned. If the following meta is unpopular and would need tiering action, the only option that would be on the table would be a resuspect of Calyrex to the metagame. Ubers must maintain a high ceiling for acceptable bans, and anything underneath Calyrex would very clearly not reach that threshold.

 

[Eledyr]

My ss ubers is very lacking and at least 2 upls old, now. Decided to go for reqs cause I care about Ubers even if I don't care about SS Ubers. There's new Caly-s techs (well new for me) that are kinda annoying for robbing games. I felt like you don't want your Yveltal to be Defog so that you can run a set that's more consistent vs all the Caly variants + still be strong.

That said, I lost far more frequently to Glare (or Flamethrower burns, lol) than any Caly-S cheese. Caly risk/reward is really stupid but it takes a lot of work + building stipulations before the safe lines start to get too shaky vs it. I can certainly understand how folks might not find that gameplay engaging, regardless of if it falls under what most would consider broken or not.

Building wise, I have a hard time seeing what a Caly ban would really open up in terms of fresh structures. Nearly every team is still going to run Yveltal, it's just the best Pokemon in the metagame. Except, without Caly around, what you can run on your Yveltal becomes very, very open. I reckon we'll see the same YEN teams except with a lot of scary offensive Yveltal balance variants. As it stands, Eternatus is a great Yveltal check unless you are fighting double dark cores. With a Calyrex ban, though, that just won't be nearly as consistent so there will be a greater need to put a Fairy-type on all your teams. Maybe I'm wrong on that and we just end up seeing Yveltal sets that check offensive Yveltal variants for teams that really don't want to dedicate an entire slot to check them.

Honestly, I think this is just what SS Ubers is always going to look like. Without Arceus in the format, you just can't ever really justify straying from the already established archetypes. There's too few good staple mons to mix and mash between and the ones that are there are REALLY good at what they do.

I'd like to address a couple of interesting points in this post. Although we cannot meaningfully predict what a Caly-less metagame will look like, I certainly agree that the YEN core will remain ubiquitous. Indeed, a significant degree of building centralization will still exist. Having to account for dangerous threats like Offensive Yveltal and NP Mewtwo will require at least two slots in addition to Eternatus + NDM. You may very well be correct that many teams will have to run a defensive Fairy-type like Xerneas to account for Yveltal (not saying this is a bad thing - Defensive Xern will be the best cleric in the tier). There is no doubt that SS Ubers wasn't kind with the introduction of unhealthy mechanics/Pokemons, which is why this generation featured the most bans in its entirety (see: Baton Pass, Dynamax, Zacian-C, Shadow Tag, Zacian-H, and now, potentially Calyrex-S). That said, the oppressiveness (polarization) Calyrex-S causes in the builder, coupled with the unfavorable 50-50 mind games it can pull off due to running over a half-dozen viable sets, is the reason why many SS mains, myself included, would prefer to play a Caly-less meta. This is the first generation of Ubers that truly set a precedent with the sheer number of mechanics and mons banned to AG. Many players fallaciously think there isn't enough time for the new metagame to develop, but this isn't true. Considering several high-level tournaments remaining before the new generation starts, such as Homefield Advantage, Summer Seasonal, Live Tours, and Last Chance Qualifier, there is enough time (~4 months to go) to flesh out metagame trends and achieve some sense of stability. With a Calyrex-S ban, I suspect there will be community surveys to assess metagame stability and satisfaction. Even if the new meta somehow ended up being too volatile and worse than the one we currently have, we could always re-suspect Calyrex-S toward the end of the generation. We'll just have to wait and find out. P.S. It's perfectly natural to lose more often to para hax and burns than Caly-S on ladder. That said, you should consider the entirety of all the arguments listed on the thread before making a tier-changing decision!

 

[Reje]

The only argument that counts in my opinion is fun. Ultimately we are playing a make-belief, made up mess of a tier and we always have. Do we really ban because stuff is broken, do we really ban because stuff is unhealthy? Or do we also associate these with a Pokemon being unfun to play or build with? I'd say, arguably, if something is obnoxiously broken but the entire community decided that that's fine, we wouldn't ban it. Because it's fun, promotes a certain type of gameplay that overshadows brokenness or similar. In the end this whole debate comes down to the people in the aftermath of the ban. Generation 9 is right around the corner, so who will keep playing this dog shit when it comes? Only the people that severely enjoy the meta. Severely enjoy to play Generation 8 specifically and will continue to do so in UPL and Most Wanted, as well as other tournaments. Should we, as a community, take an element from those people that they deem fine, healthy and that promotes good game play and decision making in game just based on the fact that we don't like Calyrex-S, especially with a lot of the pro-ban arguments being terrible?

Now don't get me wrong, if I was to continue playing this meta, if there wasn't a new Generation about to release, I'd vote ban. I don't find any of the interactions Calyrex-S promotes and provides particularly interesting, skillful and most of all, fun. But I don't. I can drop Gen 8. I can leave it to the people that care about and love it. And I think that's what most people should do. Move on if you don't enjoy, don't ruin it for people that do.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

I can't really say much as I'm not participating in the suspect test and most of the arguments have already been brought up, one way or the other. However, I think we should BAN Calyrex-Shadow.

Any time one Pokémon has one reliable counter, you know it's on a knife-edge. And that knife has just fallen.

See, people who compare Calyrex-Shadow to Tauros in RBY fail to realize that while yes, they were both very good Pokémon, Tauros had more than one counter, depending on what set you ran. Here, Calyrex-Shadow has one (viable) counter in Yveltal, which is invariably going to take at least some damage during a game, which would put it out of range to deal with the shadow horse.

+3 252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 248 HP / 188+ SpD Yveltal: 252-298 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (You're likely going to lose at least one Pokémon while going to Yveltal, and one Nasty Plot later, you get this.)

Saying that Kyogre can't snowball as well is Calyrex is nonsense.

Which is true; however, Kyogre can't snowball as easily as Calyrex-Shadow. It has to first set up boosts, while Calyrex-S? No, siree, it can just set up one Nasty Plot and become unstoppable with every kill. One of the biggest issues is that to bring in a revenge killer, such as Sucker Punch Urshifu-S, one must sacrifice something. However, if that sacrifice makes the Pokémon in question stronger, then it's not a good sacrifice.

And to all the no-ban posters claiming that "Gen 8 Ubers is a broken metagame", I agree with you. But does that necessarily mean we should leave it for dead? If one of your friends lost an arm, would you leave them for dead?

I have something to go to. Thanks for listening to my TedTalk. More will come later.