Metagame np: SS PU Stage 11 - Turn! Turn! Turn! (Scrafty BANNED)

Chloe

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NUPL Champion

:ss/scyther:

As stated in the previous thread, the PU council has voted on whether Scyther should remain within the metagame.



This quickban vote was held in order to make PU a more enjoyable and balanced experience in SCL. The council also has come to an agreement however that since this is an unconventional quickban, we should allow for the general community to have their say on whether Scyther is unhealthy for the metagame or not. Thus we have decided to hold a re-suspect test immediately to determine this.



The PU council has decided to retest Scyther into the metagame.

Scyther has been tearing through teams for the entirety of PUPL. With minimal support it can begin trickling away at opposing team's health. The effectiveness of the combination of Knock Off and STAB U-turn in addition to a very powerful STAB attack in Dual Wingbeat cannot be understated. In many games players will pivot in their Rock-type, get hit by Knock Off, and then Scyther will continuously click U-turn over and over for the remainder of the game until this Pokemon is broken. It has an inherent ability to break through its "checks" due to this reason. Not only this but being such a strong offensive pivot that forces in certain Pokemon allows the Scyther user to bring in strong breakers with ease that can benefit off of a potential Gigalith switchin such as Scrafty or Gallade.

Many games with Scyther come down to clicking Knock Off, getting hazards up, and then spamming U-turn over and over again. Our lack of hazard removal benefits Scyther, a Pokemon with a 4x Stealth Rock weakness, more than it hinders it, due to just how easy it is to force momentum with consistent U-turns. Defensive teams are hurt excessively by just how easy it is to bust through them with Scyther.

On the contrary, Scyther has poor bulk and an appalling defensive typing and it can be incredibly difficult to get in at times due to this. Its overreliance on Heavy-Duty Boots mean you have to be super careful against Pokemon that could potentially remove this item. Its attacks are all punishable due to being contact moves. Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs and Flame Body all prove to be issues for Scyther. It is super prone to status and because of this it's often paired with a cleric.

While not useless against offense, Scyther struggles to have anywhere near the same level of potency as against bulkier builds. In addition to this, with the deletion of Vanilluxe from the tier, Pokemon like Regirock and Archeops, that do better against Scyther than Gigalith, are seeing a lot more usage as Rock-types due to Gigalith not being required to the same degree as it was in the past. While these Pokemon are often still Scyther food, they help balance players matchups significantly.



Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice.

GXEminimum games
7950
79.249
79.448
79.647
79.846
8045
80.244
80.443
80.642
80.841
8140
81.239
81.438
81.637
81.836
8235
82.234
82.433
82.632
82.831
8330

  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be PU11. For example, I might signup with the ladder account PU11 Chloe.
    • You will be allowed to use your Cycle 4 PULT alt for suspect reqs, once that cycle goes up. Once you post your reqs, I will then confirm you have gotten reqs by liking your post, and then you can continue laddering on it.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgment here.
  • We will be using the regular PU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
  • The aspect being tested, Scyther, will be allowed on the ladder.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until Wednesday, September 14th @ 11:59pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
Tagging Kris & Marty to announce the Scyther re-suspect test in ladder games, thank you so much!
 

gum

for the better
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PU Leader
hi, tried to make this post as cohesive and short as possible, which was not v easy considering there's a certain other pokemon that i think makes scyther harder to deal with in this meta & should go, but it doesn't really have an impact on how scyther operates. hope this still gets my thoughts across well enough

the main issue i have with scyther is that most interactions always feel like they're heavily skewed in the scyther user's favour, and by default, often don't reward the better player. don't kill what's in front of you? that's fine, you can just u-turn out and bring in a heavy hitter to start clicking. force the opposing mon out? usually ends up in a free opportunity to start the knock off + endless pivoting bit going. all of scyther's moves are risk-free and extremely hard to punish without resorting to more niche options. this means it always gets to make progress, and so, to an unhealthy extent. to add on to the scyther often being favoured in most interactions point, its speed tier means very little can not only outspeed it but also threaten a kill; this means that even certain faster pokemon (like ribombee, the most common one) are at an inherent disadvantage when up against scyther due to dual wingbeat's absurb power (u-turn and knock off do a chunk to a decent portion of the tier, too)

against most teams at the moment, scyther has an especially easy time clicking buttons. more "solid" answers like regirock, aggron, and togedemaru have been struggling a bit in recent times, and were still never good answers to start with; they can just hold off scyther a bit longer than other options like say, gigalith, can. coalossal is probably the closest to a counter the tier has, but it's very prone to entry hazards chip once knocked off and requires extensive support, and due to this it only works on very specific team structures. dealing with scyther, whether it's offensively or defensively, is a tall order unless you're using nicher, pretty mediocre pokemon. it should stay banned, for the sake of the tier
 

Hera

Make a move before they can make an act on you
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PUPL Champion
:ss/scyther:
Pivot (Scyther) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Eviolite / Protective Pads
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dual Wingbeat
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Roost

Swords Dance (Scyther) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dual Wingbeat
- Knock Off
- Brick Break / Bug Bite

Choice Band (Scyther) @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dual Wingbeat
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Brick Break / Bug Bite / Quick Attack

I usually wait till after I get reqs to post my thoughts so my opinion has a bit more weight to it, but 3 things have made me change my mind.

1. Ladder is even more ass than usual, I've been seeing a shitton of Claydol, HO, and Claydol HO that makes me want to tear my hair out
2. I wanna be first (I ended up not being first because this post took me 4 days to write but that's fine)
3. The saddest reason, my ENTIRE teambuilder got deleted while I was doing reqs (all of PU + AAA + every other tier I've ever played. That ADV 1v1 Poliwrath spread I spent an hour building? Lost to the mists of time) and it's unrecoverable, with the only things I have left are the 50-something teams left on my phone. Understandably, this has drained all of my motivation for playing right now.

I've said before I don't find Scyther to be banworthy. This is because I don't think it's broken or unhealthy as some claim it is; in fact, I believe its ability to consistently make progress in most matchups is a healthy thing, as it gives teams a way to work around bad matchups that could other centralize the whole game around them. It keeps in check a solid amount of offensive threats (busted af Gallade, Charizard, Galarcuno, the occasional NP Mespirit, etc) as well, and while none of these would be broken with Scyther gone (or in the case of Gallade already absurdly busted so banning Scyther wouldn't change that much), having another offensive tool to deal with them is always a nice thing to have. It also consistently makes progress versus a variety of teams due to Knock + U-turn + Roost, and while I can understand how this could be problematic, personally, I've found there to be enough short-term checks (Rocky Helmet Poisons like Weezing, non-Rest Ferroseed, Coalossal, etc) or nicher long-term checks that can render Scyther null and let me win.

Speaking of which, a common point I've seen thrown around is that Scyther lacks long-term checks. While I agree that Scyther doesn't have a plethora of long-term checks, it has enough ones to make it manageable imo. Stuff like Rest Drudiggon/Ferroseed and Iron Barbs Togedemaru can stifle Scyther longer than most other things in the tier, and each of them has seen decent degrees of success in PUPL. The argument can be made that these are uncommon enough to be niche picks and that Scyther effectively forces them to be run on teams; however, I disagree for two reasons. The first is that, apart from Rest Druddigon (at least to my knowledge), these were all sets that were on the rise in tournament play before Doublade was dropped into the tier, where they proceeded to fall in favor because Doublade is amazing at literally everything a Steel-type can do. The second reason is connected to the first in that it seems like Doublade is the main culprit for longer-term Scyther answers like the aforementioned mons and even stuff like Regirock for falling out of favor. They either do jackshit against Doublade or directly compete with Doublade for slots on teams. As I've stated before, it seems that Doublade's centralization is the cause of longer-term Scyther answers being harder to use. This would make it more of a Doublade issue than a Scyther issue imo.

However, I understand my words have failed to sway many, so this time, I'm trying a different approach. Below is a list of every single replay featuring Scyther during PUPL. I've provided a little analysis of each on how Scyther performed, and if each of these performances qualifies as banworthy (I say broken because it makes more sense in context but this is what I mean). It's very long, so if you're ultra lazy, feel free to skip to the tl;dr afterward.

Key:
Bold = Scyther user
Underlined = Scyther user won
* = Scyther ditto (i.e it was guaranteed to win)

Week 1:

[US] termi vs etern [DD]
Here's a prime example of winrate not being everything. While the Scyther user does win, in the match itself, it only clicks U-turn once and is promptly sacked in the endgame in order to let Scarf Mesprit sweep. The real reason termi wins is because etern does not properly calc Earthquake damage on Lanturn, needlessly sacks in, and now is unable to actually deal with Pads Cinccino. Not broken

[US] Excal vs TeamCharm [DD]
This match showcases an interesting idea: Ditto + Scyther. The idea is that in matchups with an opposing Scyther, Ditto can transform into the opposing Scyther, so teams effectively have two Scythers in these matchups. There's no Scyther on the opposing side, however, so this idea is ultimately not used. As for the match proper, TeamCharm uses a stall that runs into an extremely difficult matchup of Ditto + Knock/Rest Ferro + Corrosive Gas/Clear Smog Weezing + Scyther that effectively denies all possible ways of making progress barring PP stall, and all Scyther does is 1v1 Pyukumuku a couple of times and U-turn a few times on random shit. While it did have an impact, it wasn't really that sizeable, and it moreso synergizes with an already effective anti-stall core to win the game. Not broken

[US] Sjneider vs Shaneghoul [DD]
☆sjneider: this is borderline forfeitable
☆sjneider: termi i cant x right

This pretty much describes the match. Despite having the "broken" Vannilluxe, Sjneider's team is unable to effectively deal with TSpikes, and once the main remover, Charizard, gets Toxiced, it was only a matter of time as long as Shaneghoul doesn't throw. As for Scyther itself, it Knocks a couple of items that help Boots Vannilluxe break, but it's not enough, as Charizard is able to clean late-game. Important note here: Rest Regirock is able to clearly outlast Scyther and considering its main goal is to outlast the mon that supposedly outlasts most of its long-term checks, this dents the pro-ban argument imo. Not broken

[HH] mind gaming vs sensei axew [DR]
A surprisingly generic fat team with Scyther featuring everyone's favorite Mongolian leader, Kangaskhan, beats another fat team without Scyther. Scyther itself ended up having a decently sized impact on the match, KOing Garbodor and Knocking Togedemaru, but what's more important is how it ends up outlasting Regirock, Garbodor, AND Jellicent, 3 mons that can deal with it decently, with not a ton of support. I think mind gaming made some sub-optimal building choices (Thief Garbodor, CM Galarcuno over FS, being weak to Specs Jellicent which fortunately doesn't show up), but even I can't deny that Scyther looked pretty damn good here. Broken

[HH] ProDigeZz vs umbry [DR]
Scyther may have cleaned up the endgame, but trust me, Haunter + Scrafty do most of the work here. A few doubles from ProDigeZz as well as some questionable plays from umbry ("hmmm yes I will sac my only breaker and proceed to not damage Haunter for two turns with my Gigalith) win ProDigeZz the game very early on, with Scrafty eventually being able to PP stall the Quagsire if ProDigeZz didn't play aggressively to secure the dub. Scyther doing something any mon faster than Zard could've done isn't really big. Not broken

[HH] TJ vs Meru [DR]
The best way to explain this match is this: TJ got haxxed in pretty much every conceivable way. Unlucky Scald Burn T1, great Flamethrower rolls on the Regi, not to mention the Moonblast crit that sealed the deal. Meru also just outplayed TJ, constantly doing smart doubles until broken Gallade could take advantage of having 3 different sets and kill Scyther with Scarf Rock Slide. As for Scyther itself, all it does is Knock Gigalith (which is pointless because the Zard answer on TJ's side, Regirock, is already gone by this point), click U-turn a few times, and for some reason decides not to 1v1 a Toxiced Quagsire, which would've allowed TJ's Sandaconda to sweep even if Scyther gets burned. I guess not knowing if the Bee was Specs or not was annoying, and it's quite possible TJ's Eledgoss didn't have Aromatherapy, but looking at the structures of both teams I find it hard to believe either of these was true. Regardless, Scyther doesn't do a whole ton, but if it did, it would've swayed the state of the game considerably. Sorta broken

[MC] Scottie vs chlo [MM]*
The first of quite a few Scyther dittos in this tier. Scottie ends up on top mostly due to Vanilluxe + Knock Whimsicott, but Scyther played a pretty big part here as well. Constantly doubling Scyther into Hattrem forces chlo on the back foot, allowing Scyther to rack up chip damage considering Aggron was Knocked very early in the game. The Wishiwashi being SpDef doesn't help either, and eventually, after Vanilluxe forces its way through Aggron (even after the surprise Healing Wish), Scyther cleans up the pieces. As for chlo's Scyther, it clicks Knock one and is promptly sacked afterward. Scyther was definitely an integral part of winning, but in this instance, I wouldn't say it's broken since the game relied much more on positioning Vanilluxe properly as well as the Knock Whimsicott wearing down Aggron. The other Scyther did jackshit so it's clearly fine. Sorta broken/not broken

[US] lax vs MZ [DD]
Scyther gets an absolutely godlike MU here: no faster mons (save for a potential Scarf Gallade), a Regen core that's easily worn down by Scyther, and the Scyther switch-in relies on a coinflip to hopefully threaten it long-term...and it actually doesn't do that much, at least until the endgame, where it does a lot. MZ does play very well around an otherwise poor MU, but after getting unlucky with Shed Skin, all it takes is one Knock and he auto loses. Scyther is strong here, but it's more chalked up to just a bad MU here than Scyther being broken. It's like how if you forget a sturdy Water resist and/or something that forces out the strong Waters, you get can 6-0ed by shit like Basculin, Arctovish, and Specs Jelli. It happens. Not broken

Week 2:


[VR] mushamu vs umbry [DR]
First week with Doublade, and this is the only Scyther replay. This is probably because people wanted to mess around with brand new toys Guzzlord and Doublade rather than using other stuff. This match really comes down to two major things: the Encore Cinccino that stops Doublade in its tracks, and the Speed tie at the end between the Zards. Calcs showed offensive Zard on both sides, so umbry had a 35% chance of outright winning if Hurricane; if not, she always lost. By comparison, Scyther doesn't do much. It Knocks Weezing and Eldegoss, allowing Doublade to break easier, but Encore Cinccino stopping it in its tracks renders that Weezing kill null. With umbry's Regirock close to dead, mushamu's Charizard was able to force a decisive endgame and win anyway, so Scyther's impact wasn't really game-changing. Not broken

Week 3:


[US] termi vs Lily [MC]
Lily brings the first instance of the ever-popular playstyle in this post, Doublade hazard stack, while termi brings a slightly older fat with Scyther. It doesn't really do much here, U-turning on Audino T1 and being sacced to Doublade later on, although not before getting a Knock in on it. This gives termi more options to revenge Doublade, but not much else. Not broken

[US] snaga vs S1nn0hC0nfirm3d [MC]
snaga being named omicorio is throwing me for a loop. Scyther here looks like a threat, being able to wear down Aggron with proper support...until it comes in on Knock Whimsicott, turning it from a threat to a pushover. To me, this illustrates how difficult it can be to get Scyther in, as even "safe" switch-ins opportunities like Whimsicott and Hattrem can cripple it or force it to Roost. Despite Ho3n being unable to get Rocks up after a misplay, Scyther's only contributions were Knocking Aggron and pivoting a couple of times. If it wasn't for the risky play, Scyther definitely could've done more. Sorta broken

[VR] mushamu vs ProDigeZz [HH]
This is a concerning match. Unlike a previous match where Scyther cleanly 6-0ed, where MZ just didn't prep for it and lost, here we can clearly see an Iron Barbs Togedemaru as well as a Specs Ribombee, so mushamu definitely took measures to stem Scyther. However, this doesn't work, as Ribombee sacks itself early on to Trick Specs onto Regirock (which ultimately ended up being pointless), while Togedemaru is eventually put into KO range by the constant U-turns and the threat of a lucky Sleep Talk roll, which ProDigeZz ultimately gets. In this match, Scyther (in combination with Wishiwashi) exerts an undue presence by allowing ProDigeZz to constantly position themselves better than mushamu. Broken

[VR] avarice vs Wingless [HH]
Here, a Scyther on balance Knocks and removes the opposing Weezing, which should in theory enable Sandslash to sweep...that is, until you realize said Weezing was NGas and would have died to Sandslash anyway. At best, it wastes a turn of Sandslash's sweep, but at the end of the day, the same scenario would've taken place. Not much changes with something like Cinccino there. Not broken

[VR] Luthier vs mind gaming [HH]
Hey look, it's the Scyther + Ditto idea from Week 1! No Scyther ditto though, so we don't see it pan out beyond scouting a set or two. Scyther actually almost dies because it comes in on DD Scrafty, but because mind gaming has a brain fart and decides to not go for Knock there (which was the play barring a Ditto switch-in), it lives. Beyond that, it does nothing, and Ditto pulls most of the weight here by revenge killing Doublade, and after 2/3 of mind gaming's breakers are dead, the game quickly snowballs into Luthier's favor. Personally, I don't think Scyther making your opponent do something pretty dumb like this counts as being broken, especially since Ditto coming in was the play of a madman. I guess not wanting to risk Ditto copying you and potentially winning was more important. Not broken

[CC] TheFranklin vs etern [DD]
TheFranklin whips out the goated Choice Band Lycanroc with Scyther as support against a team with PhyDef Wishiwashi, Weezing, and a SpDef Gigalith, and it works out pretty well. You could say Scyther enabled Lycanroc here, which is true, but as long as Lycan didn't miss a StEdge, it won anyway. The only meaningful interaction that would be lost if the Scyther was, say, a Ninjask are the lower odds to 2HKO Zard (81% vs 57%) when it was sacked, since Whimsicott was the one who Knocked Wishiwashi and Weezing was never knocked. Not broken

[MM] jonfilch vs sensei axew [DR]
Pour one out for sensei axew, who disconnected and meany jonfilch didn't turn timer off. Or maybe it was a ragequit because he was gonna get steamrolled by Specs Jelli. Either way, Scyther wasn't really going to have an impact. Yes, it did bring Jelli in, but anything with U-turn could've done that, especially since Glast clicked SD. Not broken

Week 4:


[US] Sjneider vs QWILY [VR]
Two generic balance builds going at it, with the main breakers being Vanilluxe + Charizard on the winning team and Scyther + Specs Jelli on the other. The big reason Sjneider wins this game is that he gets a couple of 50/50s right with Vanilluxe and since the Wishiwashi is later revealed to be Band, suddenly, QWILY lacks a Zard switch-in. But what does Scyther do? It's moreso annoying than broken, Knocking Doublade in the midgame and playing around Sjneider pretty well. Unfortunately, it was an unwinnable battle, and despite being the last man standing, it is quickly removed by Charizard. Two things to note here: the first is that Sjneider, despite lacking a solid longer-term check to Scyther, is still able to beat Scyther through good play. The second is that Scyther, despite the seemingly unwinnable game state, is able to put QWILY into a position where his odds look more doable. I personally think the second thing is a good thing, although I understand how it can be construed as Scyther being too much. Not broken

[US] termi vs mushamu [VR]
Even I have my limits. I refuse to watch a 123-turn game where Scyther clicked only 4 moves and was the only mon that fainted. Scyther does remove Jelli's Boots and Sandaconda's Lefties, but that doesn't seem super consequential considering termi forfeits when she realizes that Eldegoss is (presumably) going to be PP stalled. Considering Scyther loses though, I think it's safe to say it didn't have a big impact on this game. Not broken

[MM] xavgb vs ProDigeZz [HH]
Contrasting the previous game, we have one where xavgb wins in 10 turns because Scrafty is broken. With FS support, Scrafty gets a single turn right and wins on the spot (it was also Shed Skin DD and not Moxie DD, so Sludge Bomb poisons had a low chance of beating Scrafty). Sounds very balanced imo. Scyther does nothing but get sacked in order to see if, for some reason, the Scrafty was min Speed (it wasn't). Not broken

[MM] chlo vs Wingless [HH]
An interesting matchup here. Scyther loads into a team without an obvious switch-in to it, with Miltank potentially being SpDef for Zard and Wishiwashi being unreliable due to Rest. This seems pretty good...until you realize that Knock does less than half to Archeops after its Boots are removed. This means that the ultra-frail Archeops, of all mons, functions as a decent Scyther switch-in with hazards removal to ensure it doesn't take Rocks damage, which it never does. As niche of a scenario this can be, this shows me that even teams without dedicated Scyther checks can play around it with commonly used tools. Not broken

[DR] sensei axew vs Shaneghoul [DD]
Scyther's losing streak continues into a matchup between two great players. sensei axew uses a solid offensive build featuring Meteor Beam Archeops as the Rocker and various breakers, while the Scyther team has the goats Coal and Aromatisse on its side. Unfortunately, goatitude does not always equal a win. Here, Scyther doesn't even get to click a move; it switches into Whimsicott and is 2HKOed by Moonblast. It racks up Toxic damage but that doesn't matter since it was the second to last mon to die, the last being Quagsire. Talk about pathetic. Not broken

[US] lax vs Star [VR]
This is a very funny match because, despite Toxic Zard and Vanilluxe making Gigalith a non-factor, Scyther was actually in a prime position to win here. Although the Bee sack was less than optimal imo since it could set up on Eldegoss and KO Gigalith after Rocks + a bit more chip on it at +1 (I would've sacked Quagsire there personally), Star was still in a prime position, and could easily win the endgame with Scyther + Doublade.

Turn 55
☆lax: oh?

The opposing Ribombee used Moonblast!
It's not very effective...
(Bushtush lost 26% of its health!)

Bushtush used Hurricane!
It's super effective!
(The opposing Ribombee lost 51% of its health!)

The opposing Ribombee fainted!

starmaster sent out Scyther!

Turn 56

The opposing Scyther used Dual Wingbeat!
Bushtush avoided the attack!

Bushtush used Hurricane!
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
(The opposing Scyther lost 76% of its health!)

The opposing Scyther fainted!
+Luthier: noooo
☆starmaster: motherfuck
☆lax: the chance ball

starmaster sent out Quagsire!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Quagsire!

Turn 57

Bushtush used Hurricane!
(The opposing Quagsire lost 94% of its health!)

The opposing Quagsire fainted!
☆starmaster: well thats tragic

starmaster sent out Doublade!
Pointed stones dug into the opposing Doublade!

Turn 58

The opposing Doublade used Shadow Sneak!
(Bushtush lost 31% of its health!)

Bushtush used Hurricane!
It's not very effective...
(The opposing Doublade lost 20% of its health!)

The opposing Doublade fainted!

lax won the battle!

The odds of all of this happening was about 22% (crit didn't matter obviously), so Star lost on effectively a Hydro Pump miss. Does Scyther almost cleaning up the endgame effortlessly count as broken because it could've, or not broken because it didn't? I'll take the middle route here. Sorta broken

[MM] Spl4sh vs TJ [HH]
Scyther finally gets a win this week in a match between two yawn-inducing balance builds. Here, it Knocks not only the PhyDef Wishiwashi, but flexes on the Zard and Knocks it as well. This one turn completely shifts the tide of the game, forcing Spl4sh to play considerably riskier in order to win, while TJ could just sit back and flowchart to victory while sipping a latte. Unlike other interactions where another mon could do what Scyther did without an issue, here even something like Knock Whimsicott would have made Spl4sh make different plays. Because Scyther got a single turn right, it effectively won the match there. That is totally busted; hopefully, this is the only time it happened in PUPL. Broken

[DR] mncmt vs tlenit [DD]
Back to losing for Scyther, it seems. mncmt runs it on a prototype-HO team before HO was more optimized like it is now, and promptly proceeds to lose to Zing Zap Togedemaru of all mons. The funny crit on Scrafty also helped tlenit a good amount, and the bad roll on Coal was just insult to injury. Basically, mncmt got haxxed. Because of this, the only thing Scyther does is kill Ribombee before being revenge killed by Sneasel. Not broken

Week 5:


[US] Sjneider vs Lambovino [CC]
Lambovino doesn't pack a Ghost resist and subsequently loses to Harvest Trevenant. That's it. Major gap in teambuilding aside, Scyther simply cannot get past Rest Regirock with Weezing as a backup check, and since his removal was killed, he can't just pivot into the Aurous and break (which isn't even Specs) because it's put on a timer by Rocks + TSpikes. Due to the constant pressure that Trevenant provides as well as Flamethrower Weezing existing to punish a Doublade setup attempt, U-turning into Doublade isn't an option either. Scyther is rendered mostly useless here by smart building. Not broken

[DR] Punny vs dnagerbdager [MC]
5 weeks in, we finally have our first instance of SD Scyther being revealed. I think SD Scyther, while inferior to pivot sets, is a unique late-game sweeper that capitalizes on its DWB + BB + Knock coverage (here it's U-turn over BB to bluff pivot sets) to take advantage of weakened checks like Aggron and Gigalith and win. It's good with the right support, but much harder to fit on teams. Despite that, Magenton kinda tears through dnager's team here, constantly forcing them to play 50/50s between its Steel STAB and Electric STAB. dnager loses one too many and loses the game. I think the Scyther is played a bit too aggressively here, immediately U-turning into Gallade and getting it crippled with Toxic, as well as taking an unnecessary risk by getting its Boots Knocked, but even with a Scyther-weak team, Punny still manages to win with good play. Nothing unordinary here. Not broken

[DD] Shaneghoul vs dunoks [HH]
An interesting BO build featuring Taunt Sneasel and the underrated RestTalk Doublade goes up against bog standard Doublade hazard stack with Vanilluxe and Scyther. One mon does do the outlasting of checks, but it's not Scyther; here, it's RestTalk Doublade, which gets up to +6, outlasts both of its checks (including itself!), and wins against a soft check, Eldegoss. The team the opposing Doublade fainted was because it was forced to stop DD Scrafty. By comparison, Scyther clicked U-turn once, which gave duonks better positioning for a handful of turns before Scrafty set up. This match was more a showing a DD Scrafty and Doublade being ultra dumb rather than Scyther doing anything of value. Not broken

[DD] astralydia vs ProDigeZz [HH]
A stall match that thankfully lasts under 100 turns. The Scyther here is actually SD, which explains why it's not taking a more proactive approach and Knocking everything that moves. There isn't a ton to say about this match. Despite playing well, astralydia cannot get past Quagsire when it counts, and without a cleric, all status on her team is permanent. ProDigeZz simply ends up winning after that, and Scyther is ultimately a non-factor. Not broken

[DD] Squash vs TJ [HH]*
For the first time in a while, we have a Scyther ditto, with TJ bringing the tried-and-true-and-boring Doublade hazard stack, while Squash changes things up a bit with Rhydon and Ghostvally. TJ's Scyther looks like a threat, considering Rhydon has no recovery and can be easily outlasted...until it gets destroyed by Hurricane Whimsicott. Staying in was probably the move here; risking Doublade getting Knocked and being unable to get out vs Scyther getting Knocked and potentially being able to play around Rocks, I would rather risk Scyther than Doublade here. And if he went Eldegoss, it could've been U-turned on and TJ would've been in a bad position. Squash's Scyther Knocks both Gigalith and Scyther early on in smart plays, which isn't massive but definitely had a sizeable impact on how TJ could pivot his team, although the game really comes down to Hurricane Whimsicott luring Scyther and Ghostvally going to town afterward, and Lefties wouldn't have changed much. Not broken/not broken

[DD] tlenit vs Wingless [HH]
Scyther finally gets another dub on a team with the uber-goated Duggy-A and Cramorant. Here, Scyther Knocks and pivots on Quagsire. This usually wouldn't be expanded on, but here it actually lets tlenit beat it later on. It comes in on Rocks twice before recovering, and after adding on some chip damage from a previous interaction, Quagsire is now within Moonblast 2HKO range at the endgame. Without the Scyther Knock, Wingless could've potentially won with a smart double with Sneasel, but here, no winpaths are available even after it turns out that Bee is slower than Sneasel. A lot of things could've Knocked Quagsire, but it's not a stretch to say that small interaction shifted the game state a large amount. Sorta broken

Side note: In the past two weeks, Scyther went, what, 3-10? That certainly seems like the win record of a banworthy mon.

Week 6:

[US] termi vs chlo [MM]*
The first of 3 Scyther dittos this week. Both Scyther Knock the Doublade on the opposing side, but termi wins because her Doublade does more than chlo(e)'s. termi's Scyther also Knocks the Quagsire, but this is pointless because she never gets Rocks up anyway. This is a pretty straightforward match where the better player got saved by a Power Whip miss won, but Scyther didn't really play a meaningful role on either side. Not broken/not broken

[DD] Shaneghoul vs Star [VR]*
Back-to-back Scyther dittos, and coincidentally by players whose names start with S. Star brings an older FerroLith balance with DD Scrafty, while Shaneghoul's team consists of amazing mons like bulky LO Scyther, -Atk nature Flare Blitz Flareon, and my personal favorite, Decorate Silvally-Fairy. You gotta respect the creativity at least. Because Shaneghoul, for all intents and purposes, didn't actually bring a team, his Scyther was about as worthful as a tails-up penny found on the street. As for Star's Scyther, it did pretty well. Even with a Rest Rhydon, all it had to do was click Knock and U-turn (which it did) and constantly let the busted Scrafty get free turns and eventually get the PJab poison on Fairyvally, so it was pretty impactful in the game. Not broken/sorta broken

[DD] Luck O' the Irish vs maki [VR]
Two underrated Grass-type breakers on teams that didn't make playoffs went at it here: Abomasnow on the non-Scyther side, and Trevenant on the Scyther side. The Aboma turns out to be a Mixed Boots set, which ultimately wins the game for Luck because maki has no switch-ins to it. The Scyther really only clicks U-turn throughout the match before eventually revealing itself as SD and U-turning on Gigalith at +2, which doesn't change anything because Gigalith ended up being sacked in order to let Aboma win the endgame. After that, it got Knocked trying to kill Sandslash and was put under 50%, meaning it died if it came in again. Again, Scyther doesn't do much. Not broken

[HH] Gray vs Scottie [MC]
The Scyther user gets a pretty damn good MU with Scyther and wins. With Sandaconda being the only switch-in to it, relying on the unreliable Rest, the only faster mon being Ribombee, which needs considerable chip to KO Scyther, and multiple things it can U-turn on with impunity such as Magneton and Grassvally, Scyther can constantly put itself in a good position, especially if Sandaconda gets bad Shed Skin rolls. Fortunately, Scyther doesn't brute force its way through the team, but by the time its work is done, Magneton has taken a lot of chip, Wishiwashi is dead by its hand, Silvally-Grass was sacked to it, and Sandaconda is low from trying to repeatedly check it. This reminds me of the W1 match between lax and MZ, where Scyther just gets a really good matchup and proceeds to go ham. Sorta broken

[HH] Wingless vs S1nn0hC0nfirm3d [MC]
The king of heat Ho3n brings a DBond Froslass and a RestTalk MagGOATtor into his match and wins in only 22 turns. The brunt of the work is done by Ribombee + Magmortar here. Bee kills the annoying Lanturn and chips some other stuff mid-game, while Magmortar takes a few hits from Whimsicott and fires back with a powerful Lava Plume. Scyther is the last mon to fall on Wingless' side here, U-turning a couple of times and killing Ribombee before getting burned by Magmortar and losing. Do I need to explain that yet again Scyther does nothing super noteworthy here? Killing Bee is something most U-turn users could do. Not broken

[DD] tlenit vs QWILY [VR]
Remember the bulky LO Scyther team from above? Well, it's been changed around a bit, notably with Flamethrower Fairyvally and Eviolite Scyther in the mix. This changes the result drastically, leading tlenit to a win. However, the lynchpin to victory is neither of them, but rather Specs Jelli playing very well around a Whimsicott. Once Whimsicott is removed, Jelli abuses the fact that it no longer has a switch-in and obliterates the team for as long as it can. Scyther did have a pretty decent impact: by bringing Hattrem in on Rhydon, he could get Rocks up, and it also revenge killed Vanilluxe after it came in on Rocks too many times. However, this doesn't feel broken to me since most other U-turn mons would've had the exact same interactions. Not broken

[HH] Ktutverde vs pdt [MC]*
The final Scyther ditto for the week. Another unfortunate timer loss, this time with Ktutverde running out of time. Ktutverde was in a very bad position though so it may have just been a ragequit. pdt's Scyther only clicked U-turn twice; however, these were very important U-turns. The first brought Aurous in and forced the opposing Gigalith to Rest, while the second U-turn brought in Aurous again and abused the Resting Gigalith to put it very low, forcing Ktutverde to bring in Doublade. Ktut's Scyther Knocked Aggron, Sandaconda, and U-turned a few times, but by the time Scyther was dead, Sandaconda and Aggron were still very well alive and kicking. A recurring trend in these Scyther dittos: one Scyther does quite a bit, the other Scyther does barely anything in comparison. Sorta broken/not broken

Week 7:


[DD] Squash vs xavgb [MM]
Squash uses a very neat bulky offense build vs an annoying stall. There are quite a few progress makers on Squash's team, but the key one here is Stealth Rocks + Heat Wave Archeops, which lures in and heavily dents Ferroseed, and since the removal is Coal on the stall team, Archeops can get Rocks up with impunity. xavgb also forgets a grounded Poison, meaning after Coal dies, TSpikes stay up throughout the entire match and lead to a Squash win by letting RestTalk Doublade 1v1 a Sableye. Here, Scyther Knocks Coalossal early on, allowing it to be worn down with Rocks and good play, eventually leaving all hazards up on xavgb's side by the time Coal is dead. Scyther did play a sizeable role in this matchup, but this is mainly due to RestTalk Doublade blocking even Coalossal from Spinning on it, as well as the good MU Heat Wave Archeops gets here. Without these two pieces, Scyther does nothing. Not broken

[HH] Gray vs Lambovino [CC]
The Happy Huntails were basically locked in by this point, so Gray could mess around a little and bring shit like Lilligant, Carbink, and Luxray to a match, comfortable in knowing his team was going to at least tie with the Tieccinos and make playoffs (they did both). His team just so happens to have Scyther on it. Lambovino meanwhile brings a surprisingly standard team, with the only thing of note being Eject Button Eldegoss. Scyther turns out to be the first revealed Brick Break set of the tour, notably critting Gigalith (and only doing 50% lol), before saccing itself to Knock both Sandslash and Doublade. Neither of these Knocks end up mattering because Carbink, being the shitmon that it is, can't even get rid of a heavily crippled Doublade in the endgame. Safe to say, Scyther is not at all impactful here. Not broken

[MC] Lily vs mushamu [DR]
I remember watching this game and thinking, "oh fuck it's HO, she probably loses here", and that's what happened. I haven't talked about HO all that much because I plan to a bit later on, but I don't have the best thoughts on it. Moving on, Lily actually does pretty well here, playing around mushamu's various breakers and making sure they all have offensive pressure on them...until she misses a Wisp and DWB back-to-back. Even assuming the Wisp still misses while the DWB hits, it was not killing Fairyvally, and while Aggron could still live a hit, it would be so weak that Doublade would win from there. If Wisp hits, then Frosmoth QDs on the weakened Jelli after the Fairyvally sac (or attacks the Aggron), and then Carracosta breaks, followed by Doublade winning. Ultimately, Scyther wasn't going to do much no matter the circumstances. Not broken

[MC] Inder vs avarice [DR]
Frosmoth's nickname is absolutely hilarious. Anyway, standard builds from both, with Galarcuno being the standout on Inder's team and Frosmoth on Avarice's. Inder looks to be in a great position late-game; DD Scrafty at +1, all faster threats removed, and an easy setup opportunity on a Knocked Wishiwashi. One Scald burn and 3 missed Shed Skin procs later (9% chance btw), Inder loses to Frosmoth. This might be the match where Scyther loses the least. It don't click a move, nor come in earlier in the game to exert pressure or anything; it dies in an endgame Frosmoth sweep. Not broken

Semifinals:


[HH] Gray vs Inder [MC]
On to semifinals, with matches between some really good players and really good teams. Gray is using a Centiskorch team (spoiler: Centiskorch is absolutely vital to the win here), while Inder relies on mainly Specs Jelli, which immediately removes a Knocked Wishiwashi early on. In the mid-game, Scyther Knocks the opposing Sandaconda, and it also Knocked Archeops earlier, forcing Inder to make some aggressive plays with it. Unfortunately, Inder takes a not-so-calculated risk and stays in on a Giga Draining Whimsicott twice with Jellicent, leaving him without options to make progress against a team with Ribombee and Sandaconda counterplay left. Some more poorly thought-out doubles from Inder secure the dub for Gray. With this information, it seems to me that Scyther does have a solid impact on how Inder is forced to play the game, getting enough chip on Archeops to put it into Defeatist range and ensuring Sandaconda is 2HKOed by Moonblast after 2 rounds of Rocks. Sorta broken

[CC] TheFranklin vs Aliss [MM]
I always remember this match as the one where Tangela just outlasts everything and wins. Once the Head Smash PP of Aliss' Aggron was gone, Tangela was able to Leech everything and win the endgame. Scyther also Knocks and kills Claydol as well as kills Centiskorch, however, neither of these had a massive impact. Claydol traded its life from Rocks being permanently off, which allowed Centiskorch to be more aggressive, and while Centiskorch couldn't have been prevented by anything else, it was near death anyway. Even then, neither of these interactions and what happens after makes me believe Scyther was broken in this match. Not broken

[CC] Lambovino vs jonfilch [MM]
Lambovino flexes his unique building skills one final time by bringing Jolteon + Abomasnow, while jonfilch goes for a comparatively standard but still interesting balance build featuring Watervally and the goated Duggy-A. Scyther does quite a bit in this match; it kills Clefairy, forces out Abomasnow so it can kill Doublade, and takes advantage of a double by Lambovino to bring in Rock Slide Duggy-A. Everything is going great...and then Duggy-A misses and things quickly spiral downhill. jonfilch would have easily won if Duggy-A had hit; by forcing Sandaconda in, it could get it to Rest, switch out on the turn it Rests into Whimsicott, and put himself into a much better position to win, all thanks to Scyther. With the miss, your Jolteon check is dead, the opposing Zard is still alive, and winpaths are looking very scarce. Scyther being broken here depended heavily on the Rock Slide miss, but even without the miss, you can't argue it had an outsize presence here. If it hit, Scyther would definitely have been broken here. Sorta broken

Finals (including tiebreaker):


[MC] Inder vs xavgb [MM]
For some reason, xavgb runs a double removal core and doesn't abuse it to run the goated Choice Band Scyther, instead opting for Boots. But Scyther doesn't do much here. The game is actually won on Turn 3 when a +2 LO Sandslash OHKOs a PhyDef Eldegoss from full. Without Eldegoss, Inder can no longer play around SD Sandslash, and xavgb proves this by taking out half of Inder's team with only Sandslash, and chips the 4th to the point it dies after an interaction with Eldegoss in sand. All Scyther really does is Knock Togedemaru (pointless because it dies a few turns afterwards) and clean up the endgame. Not really noteworthy considering Sandslash could've done the same thing. Not broken

[MC] Lily vs chlo [MM]
A very unlucky match between two great players. Lily has the Scyther here, as well as Archeops and Whimsicott, which forms a powerful pivoting core on team preview. Meanwhile, chlo(e) brings CB Roar Scrafty + FS Galarcuno and kinda just...wins. Lily doesn't have anything to stop that strat, so she loses a mon to the strat and another to the Banded Scrafty. To add insult to injury, chlo(e) pulls up with a Coalossal to stop Scyther in its tracks, so the best interaction Scyther has is Knocking both Ferroseed and Coal and then dying soon afterward. Although they both die, the aformentioned bad MU comes back to bite Lily and she loses. Not broken

[MC] pdt vs xavgb [MM]
The final Scyther match of the tour features a normal Bo3 going to SS for the tiebreaker with a Scyther, while the opposing team is mostly standard save for the Sableye which, despite having literal gems for eyes, hits every single Wisp on a way to a win. It's a very long match so I'll be light on details, but Scyther reveals SD early on to massively chip Gigalith, is pretty impactful during the early game, and then fizzles out and only has sparse interactions in the mid-game where Sableye decides to simply never miss a Wisp ever. It's also pdt's final winpath, as if it can avoid a Wisp, PDT can win due to a bunch of mons on the opposing side being weakened...but alas, the RNG gods said no and Scyther was burned. While quite impactful throughout the match, I like how Scyther here allowed pdt to play around a bad matchup with good play and get into a position to win later on with Scyther. While I can understand how that's broken, to me it's healthy because it gives players tools they would otherwise be unable to access and rewards good play. Not broken

tl;dr

Overall usage rate: 20.56% (51/248 teams)
Overall win rate: 45.10% (23/51 teams)

3 instances where Scyther was broken
10 instances where Scyther was sorta broken
38(!) instances where Scyther was not broken

chart.png


After this long analysis, the fact that Scyther was originally going to be quickbanned leaves me scratching my head even more than I did initially. A large majority of the time, Scyther is just not broken. Do people think 3 instances of it being broken and 10 more dubious ones automatically qualify it for a ban? Does a broken mon only need a few instances of being broken to be banned, even if it is not broken more than a supermajority of the time? I, quite frankly, can't see why it should be banned based on the data. Maybe my analysis is flawed, because I truly struggle to understand how something like this is considered banworthy in practice. On paper, yes, it can KnockTurn on all of its checks and win in the long term, but in practice, that has overwhelmingly not been the case. Scyther even has a poor win rate (44% for those who forgot), worse than other banned mons such as Vanilluxe and Guzzlord. Ultimately, I really think that Scyther is just not banworthy at all, and I just really don't get why Scyther is the issue here.

Honestly, I feel like there are more pressing issues than Scyther right now. I've mentioned mons like Gallade, Scrafty, and even Doublade before, but HO's recent rise in popularity has made me concerned. If it was just people farming ladder with shit like Webs and TR to get suspect reqs than that would be one thing, but both PULT and PUPL have seen a massive rise in HO recently. It's very easy to use hazards lead + two of Doublade/Archeops/Scrafty + three other random breakers and flowchart your way to victory. Beyond that, there's the inherent variance behind HO. Not only is it difficult to prepare for whatever HO wants to throw at you beyond the standard choices of Doublade, Archeops, and Scrafty (ex: Frosmoth, Grassvally, Fairyvally, Accelgor, Carracosta, Turtonator, Glastrier, BD Zard, Comfey, Aurorus, Qwilfish, probably more), but even if you do prep for it, I've seen players lose because a crucial Wisp missed or they didn't get the Scald burn or Rock Blast missed. HO effectively punishes players for having bad RNG, and while this can happen in many matches with many playstyles, HO is so volatile that one free turn for a breakeer/sweeper can often decide the game right then and there. It's much too malleable and volatile of a playstyle to deal with imo, but I'm not sure how you would nerf HO right now; there are just so many invauable tools that HO can use that it's hard to pinpoint what exactly breaks it. I'd personally be up for tackling at least one of the Big 3 on HO (Doublade, Scrafty, and Archeops), although maybe a Doublade ban would be prefirable since the only major thing that changed from before PUPL and after PUPL was the drop of Doublade into the tier. Maybe Doublade is the root of the issue with HO? I don't know. I've also never seen anyone talk about HO before, so does anyone else think it's dumb, or is it just me being a bad builder/player?

Finally, I hope you enjoyed reading this. It took me much longer than I orginally thought to make this post, and I hope I explained my opinion on why I stauchly do not believe Scyther is banworthy as clearly as possible. If I ever decide to get reqs, I will be voting do not ban.
 
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ShuckleDeath

They call me the kign of typos
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:ss/scyther:

I am unsure if I am repeating stuff here, but I thought I would put in some comments. I don't think Scyther is too much by itself I think the problem is that the small chip damage it accumulates against certain things makes it open up teammates really well. An obvious one would be it paired with special attackers such as Charizard and Rimbombee. It puts a ton of pressure on Gigilith, Regirock, and Togedemaru leaving teams open to being swept or broken down more by the opening the special attackers gain. I think a lot of teams come prepared for Scyther as they are already prepared for Charizard and Fairy-types which overlap counters with Scyther, but I can not deny Scyther does a great job in widdling things down.

Another point to bring up would be Scythers ability to pivot out of certain things and bring in strong wallbreakers. Eldegoss being fairly common is great for Scyther as it can use as an opportunity to not just pivot out freely, but also deny the removal of hazards. When paired with things like Gallade and Specs Jellicent it can really break down common balance teams with relative ease. I do not think you can play Scyther mindlessly but if played well I do feel it is a really powerful Pokemon overall.

I do also feel there's a decent amount of counterplay with things like Arecheops and Rocky Helmet users, but with what Scyther does it can also be used with teammates that can exploit them as well. Overall I am a little on the fence about Scyther it can be a bit match-up reliant but not to a huge degree. I also think Choice Scarf sets are strong but those are harder to support for obvious reasons, I think I would lean more towards do not ban as I personally enjoy Scyther in the tier, but I do not think I would need much convincing to lean ban.
 

5Dots

Chairs
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:bw/Scyther:

Got reqs just now and would like to post some thoughts:
  • Although Scyther has its checks in most Rock-types, Steel-types, and generally faster Pokemon, the former two get worn down quite quickly and it becomes a chore to answer to the Knock Off + U-turn combination. This also isn’t accounting for its high Speed and strong offensive presence, as revenging it is limited to Choice Scarfers (which generally have been uncommon in my experience) or naturally faster Pokemon (Archeops, Sneasel, Jolteon, Cinccino). Most of the time, there isn’t a great Knock Off absorber that can recover from Scyther’s one-two onslaught, as there will be either another pivot or a dangerous wallbreaker that will prevent them from recovering sufficiently on time. While a more minor observation, the three viable Regenerator Pokemon are either weak to Dual Wingbeat (Tangela and Eldegoss) or specialize in Special Defense (Audino). While there are Poison-types like Qwilfish, Weezing, and Garbodor that can tack on extra chip damage with Rocky Helmet and diminish its utility as Heracross2.0 have pointed out, the momentum and recovery from Roost will eventually cause the bug to outlast them in a long game with the help of its teammates. A number of mons I’ve seen have even resorted to using Rest + a cleric on balance builds (not just stall or very fat builds). Gigalith and Eldegoss tends to be the most I’ve seen so far, and it synergizes really well defensively given Eldegoss’ Regenerator and vast utility options, Gigalith’s special bulk and Toxic, and both of their typings.
  • Offensive and hyper offensive teams tend to be harder for Scyther to deal with. It doesn’t have much time to go through the Knock Off and U-turn cycle, as the opposing setup Pokemon will have the opportunity to generate boosts. However, such teams are not as common in higher-stakes tournaments like PUPL, as there’s generally bigger risks to consider when accounting for Pokemon that sacrifice longevity and utility with offensive prowess. It’s probably a more general idea that can be applied to any other Pokemon, but i believe this example applies to Scyther here.
  • Heracross2.0 also nicely summarized how the ladder can be frustrating. Claydol is too inconsistent at both setting and removing hazards due to its lack of recovery; one Pokemon that can separately set hazards and the other removing them tends to be more consistent compared to doing both. Coalossal, a Pokemon that can also notably do both, tends to have better utility with Flame Body and an arguably more beneficial typing. gum covers how good it is at checking Scyther, even if it does indeed need a lot of support to work on a game-to-game basis. Lead Galvantualas dedicated to Sticky Web tend to also be quite unreliable - given how a lot of teams are bulky, Sticky Web doesn’t tend to have a big impact on the match and just relies on offensive teammates to do work, which of itself isn’t the most consistent playstyle. Moreover, most entry hazard removers are reliable at removing them, meaning that Galvantula may tend to do little at all in a game. Lastly, a lot of Pokemon wear Heavy-Duty Boots and/or are Flying-types, meaning Webs may tend to do nothing at all in a game.
That’s pretty much it for now. I think Scyther’s consistent utility with Knock Off + U-turn, the great Speed tier, and strong offensive presence with Technician Dual Wingbeat makes it very annoying for the tier to handle, but I wouldn’t be too upset over having Scyther remaining.
 

Hera

Make a move before they can make an act on you
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PUPL Champion
Not the result I personally wanted, but regardless I'm glad Scyther was given the due process it deserved. Hopefully it will be revisited down the line, but with the gen ending in less than 6 months, this is unlikely. Time to move on.

:ss/doublade:

Doublade seems to be a very popular discussion topic recently, and it's hard not to see why. It has quickly become THE most centralizing force in the meta, being a great offensive and defensive tool on a variety of teams. It can be fit on every type of playstyle, from stall to balance to HO, and has a wide amount of set variety that changes the role Doublade can play. The standard SD set with CC + dual Ghost STABs works well enough, but sets like RestTalk and moves like Rock Slide give some of its answers a harder time. Personally, I'm still not sure what to think about it. I have seen it straight up win games a surprising amount of times, but it has a solid amount of hard counters that require dedicated support to deal with, and it could be argued that the centralization it provides is ultimately healthy for the tier, or at the very least not actively making the tier worse. All I know is that HO has become a really uninteractive and unfun playstyle, and if Doublade being banned would need it, then I up for something with Doublade tiering action involved. What does everyone else think about Doublade?

(Also bring back PU24HBot please, it was nice to be able to ladder vs it when no one else was online.)
 

Chloe

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NUPL Champion
New tier shifts!!

:silvally::zoroark:
Silvally-Steel moved from NU to PU
Zoroark moved from NU to PU

It's cool to have Silvally-Steel back for sure. Zoroark looks insanely stupid though.

Council plans to vote on whether Zoroark should stay in the tier by the end of Sunday. Looking forward to seeing thoughts on the new drops!
 

Chloe

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NUPL Champion


PU council has voted to quickban Zoroark. 120 SpA with amazing coverage, Nasty Plot, an impressive speed stat, good set versatility and to top it all off Illusion has made it clearly too much for the SS PU metagame. It has no defensive answers, and you can't even tell when it's in to begin with. There's been pretty unanimous sentiment overall that this Pokemon is clearly too much for the tier.

It's been announced so early on in order not to disrupt SCL, PU Seasonal and PULT Finals. No point in leaving a certainly overpowered breaker in the tier for no reason when these tournaments are ongoing. These ongoing tournaments in conjunction with unanimous public sentiment make us not want to leave it in the tier.

============

Now that we have had our final shift of the generation, we can focus completely on how to improve the metagame going forward without worrying about future external factors. How should we go about doing this? Does a ban on Doublade or Scrafty sound like a positive? Does unbanning certain questionable threats from the past sound like a better alternative? Should we leave the meta as is? I'm interested to see different points of view on this. Would love to see posts on the matter.

We have an event planned in the next week to test one of these concepts out without interrupting the current metagame so that's something to keep an eye out for. As always thank you for your continued interest in the metagame and developing it into the best it can be.
 

gum

for the better
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doublade stands out to me as the most problematic element in current pu. i think it's the main reason people are so dissatisfied with the tier and with teambuilding. in a vacuum, doublade is fine; it's not particularly hard to defensively or offensively answer but it's really much more about its impact on teambuilding that makes it an unhealthy presence. in the current meta, it's very hard to stray away from gigalith balance without ending up with worse teams or just plain heavy offense. a lot of previously great mons like regirock, togedemaru, aggron, ferroseed, and even defensive jellicent are now considerably harder to justify and use with doublade in the tier, despite them answering a lot of relevant threats in the current meta. this leads to a lot of teams simply being breaker (or a combination of multiple ones) that beats gigaslash + gigaslash or heavy offense, as we've been seeing so far this scl. this meta trend has really been a thing since doublade dropped, and a simple look at some pupl replays proves it

a lot of the breakers rising up due to these trends are also extremely annoying to deal with; magneton used to be a very matchup fishy breaker that sometimes won game when togedemaru was a good pokemon, while dragon dance scrafty sets were rarely ever seen when regirock was considered a viable option (and scrafty is notably a pokemon people have been complaining about recently as well). in a meta without doublade, we'd most likely also see way less sandslash (often needed to spin on teams, as elde removal can be unreliable with doublade everywhere) and more sandaconda and quagsire, which are decent enough answers to scrafty

the tier was pretty unexplored after tsareena left the tier, but with pu open and pupl towards the end, the tier started to develop and settle into a meta where multiple playstyles and cores were good and viable, and there was still more than enough room for meta development. doublade's impact on building puts a halt on it and greatly limits what's viable and what isn't, making some previous great breakers like lycanroc and perrserker difficult to use and build with without giving up a previous moveslot and, as i said earlier, making multiple defensive cores near unviable. i think there'd be more room to adapt to potential issues like grassy terrain and sand in a meta without doublade
 

termi

bike is short for bichael
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in a vacuum, doublade is fine; it's not particularly hard to defensively or offensively answer but it's really much more about its impact on teambuilding that makes it an unhealthy presence.
This is a common sentiment I hear from some of the most vocal Doublade suspect advocates, namely that they do not believe it to be remotely broken, but rather unhealthy. It is worth keeping in mind that this is a more nebulous term that should, according to the policy tiering framework, be used the most sparingly. I want to stress this because it is part of why I really oppose a Doublade suspect test: the evidence accumulated against Doublade is not nearly enough imo to warrant a suspect test based on a criterion like unhealthy. I will use the rest of your post to show why I find the arguments too shaky for a suspect test to be worth considering.

it's very hard to stray away from gigalith balance without ending up with worse teams or just plain heavy offense.
It was also very hard to stray away from specific kinds of balance builds before Doublade. Fat GigaFerro teams and Togedemaru + Regirock were the two main flavors, all teams needed to reliably check the list of Scrafty + Conda + Zard + Scyther and also still have sufficient means of making progress. Right now, GigaSlash teams with Doublade are very spammable, but you will find in recent SCL games that there have been plenty of balance and BO structures that have eschewed 2 or all of these Pokemon. These teams were far from perfect, but unfortunately PU has been pretty matchup-based this gen since well before Doublade and it's difficult to create a team that can win against everything else. While I'm not satisfied with this meta, I do not see it as significantly more constrained in the builder than before.

a lot of previously great mons like regirock, togedemaru, aggron, ferroseed, and even defensive jellicent are now considerably harder to justify and use with doublade in the tier, despite them answering a lot of relevant threats in the current meta
I would argue that Doublade could only make these Pokemon less relevant by simply being a better Steel type that covers more of the meta in one slot. Moreover, most of these are still perfectly viable and only Regirock and Togedemaru have very significantly been impacted in their viability. The others simply have somewhat higher opportunity cost, but Jellicent and Ferroseed are not that much worse than before and Aggron had already fallen off somewhat before Doublade to begin with. Any decline in viability that did occur with these mons is not enough of an argument for a ban or even a suspect test, since certain staples becoming better and others becoming worse is a natural effect of tier shifts. In this case it just happens to be that Doublade itself is the defensive staple that becomes better at the expense of some viability of the others.

a lot of the breakers rising up due to these trends are also extremely annoying to deal with; magneton used to be a very matchup fishy breaker that sometimes won game when togedemaru was a good pokemon, while dragon dance scrafty sets were rarely ever seen when regirock was considered a viable option (and scrafty is notably a pokemon people have been complaining about recently as well).
On the other hand, before Doublade's arrival it was borderline impossible to reliably check Gallade on fat balance. Same thing goes for Perrserker, a mon that blew balance without Zard up and used omnipresent mons like Togedemaru and Eldegoss as setup fodder. You acknowledge that mons like Perrserker and Lycanroc get worse later in your post, but then that is also a negative apparently? I find this a bit weird. Personally, I think it's perfectly fine for a mon to centralize a meta in such a way to where certain threats become less viable and others become more viable, provided it does not obviously upset the balance of the metagame. I find it no more difficult that I now have to think harder about my prep against DD Scrafty or Magneton than when Gallade, Perrserker, and Lycanroc were dominant threats to take into account. Maybe you personally find the new big threats more annoying to prep for, but I think it's exceedingly hard to prove that this is more than an issue of personal taste rather than one of a serious sign that the metagame is unbalanced (relative to what it was like before Doublade entered).

in a meta without doublade, we'd most likely also see way less sandslash (often needed to spin on teams, as elde removal can be unreliable with doublade everywhere) and more sandaconda and quagsire, which are decent enough answers to scrafty
I also should take the opportunity to note that if Doublade dropping pushes Scrafty over the edge, that should be more cause to suspect Scrafty than anything else. Scrafty more easily fits the definition of "broken" and there have been voices asking for a Scrafty ban for a long time before Doublade's entry, so if meta trends further bolster its potential, shouldn't that be a more natural suspect candidate? Personally I'm ambivalent on the matter (more on board with unbanning some of the mons in the Gods Among Us tour), but I find the case against Scrafty much easier to see and it relies on a more solid criterion than that of unhealthiness.

i think there'd be more room to adapt to potential issues like grassy terrain and sand in a meta without doublade
I think we need a little more time to determine whether Grassy Terrain really is an issue, it's only really caught on since a few weeks ago. Moreover, let's not forget that some of the most annoying staples on Terrain teams in the form of CM Stored Power mons (Uxie, Comfey, Alcremie etc) are countered by SD Shadow Claw Doublade, mons that otherwise claim easy 6-0s vs a lot of teams. Hitmonlee is also hindered by Doublade. If Doublade is an indirect cause of the rise in Terrain teams' popularity, which is possible, then it is also one of the best weapons against them.

As they say, the sword cuts both ways. Gaining Doublade made certain staples lose some viability, but it also gave us a new and very valuable defensive staple. Some offensive threats got better, some got worse. There are clear positives and negatives clinging to Doublade, as is the case with so many mons in so many tiers. Are the particular negatives of Doublade enough to offset its positives, to such an extent that we can call it unhealthy and suspect it? I don't think this has been proven at all.
 

gum

for the better
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It was also very hard to stray away from specific kinds of balance builds before Doublade. Fat GigaFerro teams and Togedemaru + Regirock were the two main flavors, all teams needed to reliably check the list of Scrafty + Conda + Zard + Scyther and also still have sufficient means of making progress. Right now, GigaSlash teams with Doublade are very spammable, but you will find in recent SCL games that there have been plenty of balance and BO structures that have eschewed 2 or all of these Pokemon. These teams were far from perfect, but unfortunately PU has been pretty matchup-based this gen since well before Doublade and it's difficult to create a team that can win against everything else. While I'm not satisfied with this meta, I do not see it as significantly more constrained in the builder than before.
while it's true that those two were the main two type of balances running around, different cores like wishi + aggron or teams with jellicent, rocks sandaconda, and even sometimes garbodor saw usage much more frequently. it's still possible to run these cores and pokemon in this meta, but it comes with a much high risk and teams with those are often way less consistent. i'd also argue that it was easier to offensively answer pokemon in previous metas, when fast breakers like sneasel and lycanroc were commonplace, and other ones like certain silvally forms were actually good. this in general put less importance on having a solid defensive backbone that can tackle almost everything - no matter the meta, we'll always see breakers that farm balance, but then, those breakers were often harder to justify or were less common. this is not the case when building, from a defensive standpoint, is now very hard whenever straying from the same core with some variations

I would argue that Doublade could only make these Pokemon less relevant by simply being a better Steel type that covers more of the meta in one slot. Moreover, most of these are still perfectly viable and only Regirock and Togedemaru have very significantly been impacted in their viability.
it does very different things than all of those pokemon i mentioned, they don't suffer from being outclassed. doublade's impact on building simply makes it way harder to justify them; a lot of those pokemon struggle immensely with doublade and more meta trends that are caused, whether directly or indirectly, by doublade. there's a reason we've barely seen any in the later pupl weeks and so far this scl, and it's not because doublade is a better steel (it's often not), but it forces the teams where those pokemon are used into more awkward structures that struggle against more stuff, often not making them worth running. in this meta, it's often very hard to offset those issues and comes with huge opportunity cost. this was not an issue in pre-doublade meta, or was often more manageable

On the other hand, before Doublade's arrival it was borderline impossible to reliably check Gallade on fat balance. Same thing goes for Perrserker, a mon that blew balance without Zard up and used omnipresent mons like Togedemaru and Eldegoss as setup fodder. You acknowledge that mons like Perrserker and Lycanroc get worse later in your post, but then that is also a negative apparently? I find this a bit weird. Personally, I think it's perfectly fine for a mon to centralize a meta in such a way to where certain threats become less viable and others become more viable, provided it does not obviously upset the balance of the metagame. I find it no more difficult that I now have to think harder about my prep against DD Scrafty or Magneton than when Gallade, Perrserker, and Lycanroc were dominant threats to take into account. Maybe you personally find the new big threats more annoying to prep for, but I think it's exceedingly hard to prove that this is more than an issue of personal taste rather than one of a serious sign that the metagame is unbalanced (relative to what it was like before Doublade entered).
fat balances often had issues that went beyond just gallade and perrserker, though. the main point is that the now big threats are very hard to consistently answer unless you go out of your way to in a way that was not true for either of the pokemon you mentioned; you often need to use mediocre pokemon or cores whereas gallade was, and is still, easy to deal with from an offensive standpoint due to its overreliance on clicking right and being very frail, and it's sometimes disappointingly weak. perrserker, on the other hand, came with a higher opportunity cost that simply doesn't exist for magneton or dd scrafty in this current metagame. i could also argue that perrserker, gallade, and lycanroc all helped the tier in a way and multiple teams's matchup against cheese teams or simply being a good offensive answer to other threats and having priority moves in a way that doesn't apply to the "new" big threats that profit off doublade's presence. also, i think it's a negative because those pokemon went from very solid metagame presence to borderline unviable. i don't believe this to be healthy to any metagame

I also should take the opportunity to note that if Doublade dropping pushes Scrafty over the edge, that should be more cause to suspect Scrafty than anything else. Scrafty more easily fits the definition of "broken" and there have been voices asking for a Scrafty ban for a long time before Doublade's entry, so if meta trends further bolster its potential, shouldn't that be a more natural suspect candidate? Personally I'm ambivalent on the matter (more on board with unbanning some of the mons in the Gods Among Us tour), but I find the case against Scrafty much easier to see and it relies on a more solid criterion than that of unhealthiness.
that's a fair point, and i'd agree if this was really the only thing doublade had a significant impact over but it's not. it's its presence that leads to this metagame where scrafty sets that were barely even used before can now thrive, in addition to everything else it causes

I think we need a little more time to determine whether Grassy Terrain really is an issue, it's only really caught on since a few weeks ago. Moreover, let's not forget that some of the most annoying staples on Terrain teams in the form of CM Stored Power mons (Uxie, Comfey, Alcremie etc) are countered by SD Shadow Claw Doublade, mons that otherwise claim easy 6-0s vs a lot of teams. Hitmonlee is also hindered by Doublade. If Doublade is an indirect cause of the rise in Terrain teams' popularity, which is possible, then it is also one of the best weapons against them.
i don't think grassy terrain is an issue, hence the "potential" as people have been complaining about it in the server. however, saying doublade beats terrain in its current form is simply untrue; even terrain has adapted to doublade and we've mostly been seeing breakers like thievul, swoobat, and taunt comfey that all beat doublade. even mesprit has been running nasty plot shadow ball on terrain teams. hitmonlee on the other hand can overwhelm doublade when paired with another breaker anyway. if doublade gets banned, i don't think terrain would be as present it's mostly crafted to tackle the regular balance teams and froslass/qwilfish heavy offense because, again, the meta is very centralized, which naturally makes it harder to prep for cheese

also, i underestimated doublade a bit in my original post - answers to the sd set are not particularly abundant, and a lot of so called ones like sandslash can lose if they come in as it swords dance; it's a very potent sweeper with an impact on the metagame that i believe brings more negatives than positives
 

Chloe

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absolutely agree with doublade being the prominent issue in our meta rn, it is insanely restrictive on the teambuilder and doesn't allow many archetypes at all to thrive well. gum is absolutely right with their posts.

Code:
| 3    | Doublade           |   15 |  37.50% |  73.33% |
the overall winrate of doublade throughout scl weeks 1-4 of doublade is 73.33%. that is, if i'm doing my math right, 11 wins out of 15 matches. only 4 losses with doublade. 3 out of 4 of those losses, were against, other doublade. obviously both people can't win the match so this is bound to happen. this means doublade has only lost a SINGLE TIME in all of scl, when not facing another doublade. is that not insane? congrats to leru for being the only person to beat a doublade without one on your team. looks like a virtually impossible feat to accomplish.

doublade is so good. the third most used pokemon in our tier, has only lost once when not facing itself. this should probably be a cause for concern. i don't really like using winrates and usage as metrics to determine whether a mon is busted or not, so i won't solely rely on this, but it's definitely something to note as we go forward discussing it.

unlike others, i think doublade is broken by conventional standards, on top of just being an unhealthy and horrible presence. it is a set up sweeper, that sets up on such a large portion of the metagame with a very notable lack of consistent answers. it has insane physical bulk, 321/504 with only hp investment. it requires special attackers to whittle it down substantially. it spinblocks almost all of our spinners, forces sandslash to gain insane usage despite being a very mediocre pokemon. prevents a lot of our defensive pokemon from functioning because god forbid they allow doublade in. why would i not run gigalith sandslash doublade, those kind of mons right now, when doublade prevents most other previously effective defensive cores from functioning. we have no replacements for these defensive cores, so of course people are gonna result to mediocre offenses. it is so miserably difficult to build an effective balance right now thanks to doublade. we have three possible specially defensive steel types in this metagame pretty much, doublade renders two of them pretty much unusable.

this pokemon is a major component in our tier being insanely unfun to play. you can try to make the argument that the tier wouldn't improve substantially with the removal of doublade, but i definitely disagree. we had an enjoyable metagame prior to it dropping, and not too much has changed that would force me to believe anything else. and i'm not saying that banning doublade will just fix all of the issues with this meta, but wow it would surely help a lot. imagine being able to run eldegoss to instantly remove with ease again, being able to run regirock or sandaconda to help with offensive scrafty, having toge available to impair the viability of prominent breakers like magneton or agility vika. we had an enjoyable metagame before doublade dropped, we had the tools in the metagame to deal with emerging pests but right now we can't afford to run any of them just because of how poor they are against doublade.

doublade makes this metagame incredibly unfun to play. makes it impossible to enjoyably build for. it has great matchup versus the majority of the metagame and it doesn't even need to differ from a standard sd set to accomplish this. a lot of doublade's losses come down to the wielder not preserving it as well as they should've. it is such a good pokemon. i can't fathom running pokemon like defensive togedemaru, regirock, audino or aggron in this metagame. they're defensive staples of the past and they're impossible to fit on any teams. while i appreciate the rise in pokemon like galarian stunfisk to deal with meteor beam archeops offense, while being a decent defensive rocker; we would ideally have the freedom to run any of our defensive steels instead of being stuck in this rut where gigalith or the shotty pancake are all we can afford to use.

even if you attempt to make the argument that doublade is not /broken/ by conventional standards, it should hopefully be evident that it is by far a massive limiting factor that is many definitions unhealthy. i do not appreciate it in the tier at all and i firmly believe it being gone would benefit the metagame extensively. i don't see how it benefits our tier in any way other than potentially keeping gallade at bay, but even then this pokemon wasn't broken beforehand and i don't see why it would become broken if doublade were to go. i really see doublade leaving as a win win and i really do hope that we can get rid of it. thank you for reading my messy post.
 
Here's a bunch of mons I'm liking right now. Post on the state of the metagame comes next week, I'm looking for replays.

:assault vest: :gallade:
Gallade (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Justified
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab / Rock Slide / Shadow Sneak / random tech move lol

AV Gallade is an alternative spin to Muscle Band Gallade in that it trades the small power increase for the ability to 1v1 several of its answers. Specs Ribombee, Charizard and Articuno-Galar are unable to OHKO AV Gallade, and Gallade returns a 2HKO on all of these targets at minimum, making it a very safe wallbreaking option on offense. Additionally, the extra special bulk gives Gallade much better matchups into Vikavolt and Thievul, and also allows it to act as a one-time emergency counter to almost every special-bias sweeper in PU. However, as a downside, Gallade is unable to 2HKO Quagsire - meaning it will have to find some way to cheese through it, either via Poison Jab poisons or Zen Headbutt flinches.

Here's a game where AV Gallade takes a few lives: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1697084717-go8l1m2brobbvdjpf68c5w4i7tz4lolpw

:throat spray: :vikavolt:
Vikavolt @ Throat Spray / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball
- Agility

If you ask me, I personally think Vikavolt is HO's big ace right now. Its checks are not just limited but very easy to wear down - take Gigalith for example: it's taking 25 from Bug Buzz and then 50 from a +1 Energy Ball, enough to break through Gigalith in most games just with Vikavolt alone. As for other answers - well, they are often times just as easy to break through. It takes merely two Thunderbolts from Vikavolt to KO Centiskorch, Audino is 2HKOd by Bug Buzz after a Throat Spray and Coalossal needs to be carrying Overheat AND needs to be above 80% to force out Vikavolt. It helps that in regards to offensive counterplay, Vikavolt is mostly the same - scarfers in the current meta tend to be quite rare (despite how good I think they are) and the speed control that does exist often fails to OHKO Vikavolt - Sandslash needs LO + Stone Edge to be able to get an OHKO, Adamant Lycanroc only guarantees a KO from below 63%, and the scarfers that are used often can't hit Vikavolt for more than this.

Vikavolt's benefits don't stop there, either - not only is it a solid sweeper, but it's also capable of forcing out several of HO's most annoying mons to deal with, such as Quagsire and Weezing, and actually punishing these builds. With all this in mind though, Vikavolt does have some flaws. To get most of these high percentage benchmarks, Vikavolt needs to drop Heavy-Duty Boots, meaning that it's much easier to regulate a sweep and get Vikavolt down to these ranges. Additionally, it's quite easy to stop Vikavolt from clicking Agility freely - several of its setup opportunities either don't allow Vikavolt to click Agility, such as revenge killing a weakened Gigalith or Doublade, and some Pokemon are capable of dishing out a big hit or status punish to dissuade Vikavolt from using Agility.

:choice scarf::ribombee:/:whimsicott:
Ribombee @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shield Dust
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Switcheroo
- Roost
- Quiver Dance

Whimsicott @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Defog
- Switcheroo
- Memento / Energy Ball / U-turn

These guys are actually pretty cool on offense right now. Sand and HO are very dominant playstyles, and finding a way to cripple them is an important task for every team. However, both of these mons will give you an insanely easy MU against those builds whilst also being strong mons vs more humble builds. Ribombee is probably the more humble of the two, being able to trick away its Scarf as a side-grade to its already powerful Quiver Dance set. Additionally, its Moonblast is generally stronger, and it has a more advantageous speed tier vs Hitmonlee and Thievul, making it much stronger against HO as a revenge killer. However, defensively, Ribombee tends to be a bit weaker and has a much harder time pivoting into mons like Gallade and Sandslash, whereas Whimsicott is capable of pulling it off with little to worry about. Whilst Whimsicott has Encore already (Great move by the way, you should run this more), Scarf generally opens it up to being a better revenge killer rather than setup stopper. Even with that in mind though, Whimsicott still has several good moves it can throw out to provide general utility to the team - in particular, a variant I like on HO a lot uses Memento to get a free setup opportunity on slower comps, making it the perfect partner for some stupid breaker like Gallade or Glastrier.

Here's two builds of mine you can take home to explore this. 1 2

:magneton:[Magneton]
Magneton could be considered a "fish" by some, but actually it's a trio of magnets not a fish it's hilariously consistent right now. With the Ground-type metagame mostly shifting towards Sandslash and Quagsire, Togedemaru shifting almost entirely out of the picture, and picks like Weezing and Tangela picking up in pace, Magneton gets a lot of chances to start wreaking havoc. Viewing the meta outside of Ground-types, Specs Volt Switch packs a hefty punch - and not only that, but the best special walls in the game straight up let mons like Gallade, CB Wishiwashi, and pivot Archeops just go ham vs those and start the cycle again.
Side note - it's worth mentioning that I also think Scarf Magneton is very viable right now, it's a dangerous pivot like Specs that trades obscene power for the ability to outpace Ribombee, Sneasel, Archeops and several other slower breakers.

:coalossal:[Coalossal]
Coalossal is absolutely not shit right now. I think its VR placement is highly underrating it; the mon has a very solid defensive profile, being able to take on Pokemon like Ribombee, Charizard, Vikavolt, Centiskorch, and Sneasel with little to no trouble. In addition, it's also a great Spiker and spinner right now, being able to set Spikes on our tier's best removal options, and with less Jellicent usage than ever, it can perform its job reliably as a spinner on the side. (though notably, it has a poor matchup vs most setters - it's only really good against Toxic Spikes setters right now). Additionally, access to Flame Body means that Coalossal can dissuade VoltTurn breakers and potentially stop more threatening wallbreakers like Shiftry in their tracks. Even when putting this mon up against Gigalith, it still finds several ways to find a niche against what is arguably the best mon in PU right now.

:gourgeist:
Gourgeist-Super @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 164 HP / 252 Atk / 92 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poltergeist
- Power Whip
- Toxic
- Synthesis / Shadow Sneak

Used this guy for Among Us tour and I have to say, I'm actually quite impressed with the results. Whilst it notably has a lot of competition with Doublade, and the several other defensive Grasses in PU, offensive Gourgeist-XL actually ends up finding a home in this strange midground between these two archetypes of mons. Notably, it's excellent into Sand, and is capable of severely hurting your typical defensive cores in this current meta - seriously, go through the VR and find me the amount of mons that are capable of not being 2HKOd by either Power Whip, Poltergeist or take serious punishment from Toxic. Gourgeist-XL is also fantastic into Hitmonlee and Gallade, two mons that Doublade can't find always find good edges against.

If you're looking for a build where I've used the three mons mentioned above, take this for a spin: 3

I've enjoyed playing the PU metagame so far, and I'm not really done testing any mons that I feel haven't been explored yet. There are some mons I haven't listed here like Arctovish that I think are actually immensely threatening right now, but this is all I really have to write on at the moment. Until then, stay tuned.
 

UberSkitty

Assist Skitty was too broken for NDUbers
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idk if this is the right thread for this but it seems like the best option so lets go!

At some point on Discord, people started debating what mon in this meta is the most broken. Doublade! No, Sandslash! Nah fam it's Scrafty! So that got me thinking, what if it isn't a specific mon that's the problem? So I have come to the conclusion that PU is currently at a 'broken beats broken' kinda stance.

Looking more into it, I feel like this is furthered by the teambuilding. Also I like teambuilding more than battling so yeah. When looking through my teams, the ones that have done better seem to just be a rotation of select mons in the A-ranks, with maybe something B+, and then whatever mon I was trying to build around. While obviously successful teams are gonna have a fair share of A-rank mons, that doesn't mean people should feel the need to be filling half of the slots with only A+ and S rank mons (of which there are only 6 total) so they won't immediately lose to said A+ and S rank mons. There are even A- mons I can struggle to fit on teams because of this. Overall, while having enough 'wiggle room' to enjoy teambuilding more is one thing, I think the meta has reached a point where the lack there of is unhealthy.

Here are just some thoughts on top tier mons:
:gigalith::sandslash:
I'd say alone Gigalith healthy, great SR setter and check to bunch of stuff. However, when paired with Sandslash, they create a large threat. Sand Rush+SD+decent bulk can lead to matches where a player just has to stall out Sand to RK Sandslash, potentially having to sack off mons in the process. And this can even be done multiple times in one match. Similar to Gigalith, Sandslash alone isn't particularly threatening, but one the main reasons you'd even see it on Gigalith-less teams is to help deal with/abuse opposing Gigalith/Sandslash cores (also decent glue with SR+Rapid Spin, but look where that got Claydol). This is why I think Sand Rush specifically should be looked at for a ban, like it has been in previous generations and tiers. Imagine having a Gigalith on your team and not having to resist the urge to add Sandslash too.
:ribombee:
Ribombee is a large offensive threat, but I feel at the moment isn't the hardest to deal with in relation to others. With how common Gigalith and Charizard are, neither of which being mons I see as broken, it's just your standard S-rank mon. That being said, Quiver Dance is a huge threat, and maybe will only get better/more broken as the meta develops, maybe not. I don't think Ribombee stands as one of the unhealthiest mons in PU at the moment, but is potentially nearing borderline.
:doublade:
Eh, yeah I'd say the meta would be better without it. It is a large contributor to the whole "broken beats broken" matter, as it often demands stuff like Scrafty and/or Charizard on your team if you do not want to be swept after an SD. And even then, Close Combat alone makes it much harder to hard switch in on or defensively check, which can leave you reliant on a special mon to be able to live Shadow Sneak and KO. And don't even get me started on that defensive typing. This is definitely a mon I do think should at least be looked into.
:charizard:
I wasn't here for the meta where's Charizard was S-rank, but I've been told it was borderline broken. At the moment though, I don't see much wrong with Charizard in this meta, being another mon checked by Gigalith while also offering good glue for teams. However, Charizard is an example of a mon that feels absolutely needed on many teams if you want to be able to handle stuff like the previously mentioned Doublade and Ribombee.
:scrafty:
People have been calling this mon the most unhealthy mon offensively, and I can see it even though it isn't the first thing that comes to my mind as banning. My personal main issue with Scrafty has been that it's a main contendent to have on every team. It negates the viability of seemingly every other bulky Dark or Fighting type, furthering the feeling you need it to resist stuff like Doublade's Shadown Sneak. But back to its offensive presence, it can defenitely be a huge pain. What should wall it just becomes setup fodder thanks to Shed Skin shenanigans, and it's too bulky to be revenge killed by just anything. There aren't even too many mons that can hit it super effectively, even less so that can freely switch in or outspeed to RK after a DDance. I'd say it should be looked into too.

To sum it all up:
:gigalith::charizard:don't ban
:ribombee:keep an eye on
:sandslash:don't ban but ban Sand Rush
:doublade::scrafty:ban

edit: just found out Sandslash doesn't have another ability bar Sand Veil, so it would be banned anyway. So ban Sandslash instead yay.

But besides the actual healthiness of the tier, I would also simply like to see things mix up a little. It's gotten pretty dull, and like I said before, I wanna be able to use more diverse teams. I think now is a great time to look into it, while waiting for the SV PU drops, so SWSH PU can end on a high note!
 
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