Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 9 - Old Town Road

[TheVarsity]

Hi,

Reqs below.

I am sure many have stated better than I can but in summary, this mon deserves to be banned because it has a mix of the factors that make Dracovish and Naganadel broken: (1) restrictive to teambuilding because without one of the 4-5 checks you are almost guaranteed to lose (the dracovish conundrum); (2) high speed in combination with its snowballing ability is too easily abused and skill-less (Naganadel conundrum).

I vote Ban (mag should be next).

 

[wadeeeeeeeee]

Spectrier is a pokemon with a lot of good things and minimal bad things. In order to counter spectrier, you're forced to run ttar,mandibuzz,hydriegon, or a hyper voice user.


Spectrier Sets

Spectrier has 2 sets and both of them have an astronomical success rate.

Scarf offense: The name kinda gives it away. Give spectrier scarf and spam shadow ball. With scarf it out speeds max speed regieleki. This means that in order to counter it you need a scarf user yourself. This obviously isn't the most strenuous requirement, because most viable mons use choice scarf for success. However take a look at OU and think to yourself. "HMMMMMMMMM, does (pokemon that runs choice scarf often) do good against spectrier?" Let's look at some of the popular scarfers in this meta. Nidoking, Kartana, TTar, Landorous-T, and Gapdos. All of these pokemon are solid scarfers, but only one of them has a good matchup against Spectrier. Let's go through their matchups in depth.

Landorous-T. Scarf Landorous-T is a great pokemon. It uses its good attack to earthquake and rock slide its problems away. It matchups it loses in it U-turns and can even be a lead with early stealth rock. While yes, all of these are great qualities, none of it really matters to spectrier. Spectrier can be an Early-game, mid-game, or late game sweeper. If Landorous-T and Spectrier and both facing each other off in the beginning of a match, stealth rock can't be taken into account.
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.
If you want a solid chance at killing Spec (that's it name from now on) you need sr. Also it's not like Landorous-T is impervious to shadow ball.
252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 171-202 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While yes it's a 2HKO there's 2 things you need to take into account. #1 Spectrier is a faster scarfer than Landorous-T. #2 If spectrier is used mid-game it's highly probability that before it faces off against Landorous-T it killed one of it's teammates prior. It still won't OHKO, but it's a bigger dent and if Landorous-T kills with an earthquake (with a critical hit or with spectrier taking damage from sr or another teammate) it will be badly inured which will let spectrier's teammate like magearna, one of the tapu's, or Cinderace to come in for free damage. "Landorous-T can simply switch out." Well it has to switch back in eventually so my point still stands.

Kartana. Kartana usually uses scarf so it can outspeed checks like Cinderace or Heatran. Scarf Kartana also has a guranteed OHKO agains spectrier with every move except Smart Strike. So why isn't Scartana a counter? Because scarf kartana doesn't outspeed scarf spectrier. Also it's special defense is horrendous (pokemon in LC have more base than it) so it isn't surviving shadow ball. Especially if there's stealth rock or if spec KO'd an opponent prior.
Here are some calcs I ran.
252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 339-399 (130.8 - 154%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Spectrier Hex (65 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 274-324 (105.7 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 226-266 (87.2 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 286-337 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 410-484 (120.2 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So kartana is a solid check but it needs to catch spectrier on the switch.


Nidoking. Nidoking is a great scarfer because of its coverage options. It can be a special attacker or a physical attacker and both sets have coverage options. Physical has throat chop and special has shadow ball. Both of these moves threaten spectrier.
252+ Atk Sheer Force Nidoking Throat Chop vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 318-376 (93.2 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Spectrier: 224-264 (65.6 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Based on these calcs you obviously wanna run the physical set if your team struggles against Spectrier. Don't get too confident though. Spectrier's speed will easily 2HKO it. You need sr from ferrothorn or to catch spectrier on the switch.



Thanks for reading my explination on why Spectrier should be banned. Please reply if I provided you guys with wrong info.

 

[Hozayin]

Why we need to ban Spectrier? I know that Spectrier can be really powerful, using its high stats. But the problem for this horse is Tyranitar. Unlike other dark types, Tyranitar has Sand Stream and usually runs specially defensive set to setup Stealth Rock, wall specially-offensive pokemon and cripple them with Toxic. In the case of Spectrier, Tyranitar is huge brick wall that gets no damage from its attacks. Even if Spectrier runs Mud Shot and Specs and then somehow gets +6 sp.atk, that's still not enough for guaranteed OHKO:

+6 252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Mud Shot vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 384-454 (95 - 112.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

In the case of Shadow Ball:

+6 252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 210-247 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you see, this results is in the case where Spectrier has Choice Specs and +6 sp.atk and without that and in this case Tyranitar is burned:

252 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 57-67 (14.1 - 16.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

252 SpA Spectrier Mud Shot vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 66-78 (16.3 - 19.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

Well, the Shadow Ball is obviosly "possibly the worst move ever" in this case, because it deals absolutely nothing to our old good friend Kaijumon.
Spectrier is not OP, it's somehow balanced. It's bad moveset balances out its high speed and sp.atk stats.

Also i should mention that it can be walled by Blissey, but that's too obvious. Toxapex also can somehow wall Spectrier, Haze it's boosts and Cripple it with Toxic , Spectrier has chance to OHKO pex with Shadow Ball with Choice Specs set and +3 sp.atk or gets guaranteed OHKO when pex takes some damage from Stealth Rock

I think it doesn't deserve BAN and should stay in OU

Edit: People are right about the thing that if there's no kind of counter to Spectrier in your team, your gonna get swept. You can use Tyranitar sp.def set to counter this horsemon before it gets banned. So i vote Ban

 

[Faless__]

Why we need to ban Spectrier? I know that Spectrier can be really powerful, using its high stats. But the problem for this horse is Tyranitar.

Tyranitar is usually spectrier's sturdiest check, that's true. However, it's a check prone to getting worn down as its only form of recovery is Rest, and as someone that has used RestTar, it's awful using it, as you're not using a moveslot for something way more useful like Toxic or Thunder Wave. If it's not rest, then it gets worn down by hazards, the prevalent Toxic, and by usually being a switchin for numerous threats, but if it is, it becomes setup fodder for two turns so that Spectrier can get to +6 and 2hko it with Hex.
Another thing is: Fitting Tyranitar in a team is really hard. Passive damage hurts its own team and sand teams often have to choose between running a shitty Spectrier check with no recovery or running an actual functional Cinderace check with actual recovery that doesn't force it to not spread status.

Spectrier is not OP, it's somehow balanced. It's bad moveset balances out its high speed and sp.atk stats.

It is overpowered, since Will-O-Wisp, Hex, Taunt, Nasty Plot, Calm Mind, Disable, Substitute, Shadow Ball and Mud Shot are all that it needs to be a restrictive threat in the builder and an awful thing to handle and revenge kill, and an easy to snowball mon.

 

[Hozayin]

Tyranitar is usually spectrier's sturdiest check, that's true. However, it's a check prone to getting worn down as its only form of recovery is Rest, and as someone that has used RestTar, it's awful using it, as you're not using a moveslot for something way more useful like Toxic or Thunder Wave. If it's not rest, then it gets worn down by hazards, the prevalent Toxic, and by usually being a switchin for numerous threats, but if it is, it becomes setup fodder for two turns so that Spectrier can get to +6 and 2hko it with Hex.
Another thing is: Fitting Tyranitar in a team is really hard. Passive damage hurts its own team and sand teams often have to choose between running a shitty Spectrier check with no recovery or running an actual functional Cinderace check with actual recovery that doesn't force it to not spread status.

I want to say that everything i said before is my opinion and i love to run T-Tar in OU and i always run it and i also use special set that is really unexpected for opponent. Dealing with Spectrier is very easy at least for me. I never had problems trying to wall this horse thing. Nothing bad in having different opinion, isn't it?

Edit: Okay, people, maybe you're right. So just slap spectrier with Banhammer!

 

[Finchinator]

Nothing bad in having different opinion, isn't it?

Not at all, but I think your opinion is pretty limited. If it's "use Tyranitar (or Blissey with the right set/support) or lose", then odds are that the Pokemon in question is problematic.

You mention other Pokemon like Toxapex, but Toxapex can (and oftentimes does) lose to every set-up set. All in all, I agree -- Tyranitar does well vs Spectrier, but if a Pokemon forces such limitations in the teambuilder, perhaps it is still problematic even if it still has one or two counters.

 

[thundergoos]

Following the vein from Finch above me, the problem with Spectrier isn’t necessarily that it has no checks whatsoever. T-Tar does do well against it often, that is true, as do other mons that have been discussed in this thread. The problem with Spectrier, though, is that it warps the metagame around it considerably, arguably more so than any other mon in the tier. If it weren’t for Spectrier, a dark or normal type wouldn’t be all but mandatory. It takes sub-par mons that otherwise wouldn’t be as viable in this metagame, such as Mandibuzz, and makes them necessary to slap on a team lest you get mauled by any one of Spectrier’s many sets. We’ve seen unorthodox sets such as Shadow Ball Blissey used to combat Spectrier alone, and Spectrier subsequently adapted to that, as well. It’s not even constrained by its barren movepool, as some have argued. It doesn’t really need more than it has to decimate teams. It’s far too strong and versatile for this metagame, and the most important problem with it is how overbearing its presence is in the teambuilder. You absolutely have to prepare for it—and this usually means bringing at least 1-2 mons dedicated specifically to combatting it—or else you most likely will lose. Any Pokémon that warps the metagame around itself as severely as Spectrier has is inherently problematic and should be dealt with as such. In Spectrier’s case, I firmly believe this necessitates a ban.

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

Why we need to ban Spectrier? I know that Spectrier can be really powerful, using its high stats. But the problem for this horse is Tyranitar. Unlike other dark types, Tyranitar has Sand Stream and usually runs specially defensive set to setup Stealth Rock, wall specially-offensive pokemon and cripple them with Toxic. In the case of Spectrier, Tyranitar is huge brick wall that gets no damage from its attacks. Even if Spectrier runs Mud Shot and Specs and then somehow gets +6 sp.atk, that's still not enough for guaranteed OHKO:

+6 252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Mud Shot vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 384-454 (95 - 112.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

In the case of Shadow Ball:

+6 252 SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 210-247 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you see, this results is in the case where Spectrier has Choice Specs and +6 sp.atk and without that and in this case Tyranitar is burned:

252 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 57-67 (14.1 - 16.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

252 SpA Spectrier Mud Shot vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 66-78 (16.3 - 19.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

Well, the Shadow Ball is obviosly "possibly the worst move ever" in this case, because it deals absolutely nothing to our old good friend Kaijumon.
Spectrier is not OP, it's somehow balanced. It's bad moveset balances out its high speed and sp.atk stats.

Also i should mention that it can be walled by Blissey, but that's too obvious. Toxapex also can somehow wall Spectrier, Haze it's boosts and Cripple it with Toxic , Spectrier has chance to OHKO pex with Shadow Ball with Choice Specs set and +3 sp.atk or gets guaranteed OHKO when pex takes some damage from Stealth Rock

Unfortunately, Blissey cannot do anything back to Spectrier without Shadow Ball, with which she doesn't hit hard enough to dissuade the horse from setting up on her:
0 SpA Blissey Shadow Ball vs. 112 HP / 20 SpD Spectrier: 108-128 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is laughable. One Calm Mind means that Spectrier's sub doesn't break in one hit, too. And then we get this, because Blissey's setup fodder:
+6 172 SpA Spectrier Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 276-325 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Yeah... Also, Taunt and Disable ruin Blissey's day. On to Tyranitar, it has no recovery aside from Rest, which leaves you wide open for two turns, and it's easily pressured by hazards and the like. It also hates Will-o-Wisp, which will render it practically useless. Toxapex cannot cripple Spectrier if it's hiding behind a substitute, either (and its offense is such that it needs at least two hits to break Spectrier's sub, which doesn't help. And even if you do break it, it's faster, so it'll just sub up again, and your attempt to Toxic it accomplishes a fat load of nothing). If these are forced just to not auto-lose to the horse, I see that as a red flag indicating that it needs to get the banhammer.

 

[Pingouinos]

To cut right to the chase spectrier albeit not entirely broken is incredibly limiting both on the battlefield and the teambuilder. Scarf sets utterly destroy offensive teams after a bit of chip is dealt while slow and bulky teams are anihilated by sub calm mind or nasty plot sets. Its only limiting factor being its bad movepool but with access to its incredible ability and amazing stats it breaks through that limitation via sheer power. In a generation where pursuit is gone ghosts are bound to be overwhelming i get that but spectrier is so goos it completely outclasses the previously excellent Dragapault the solid Gengar and newer additions like Blacephalon. Not only is it just better to use Spectrier but it also deals with the previously mentioned ghosts one shotting gengar blacephalon and dragapault while also not dropping to a faster daragapaults shadow ball. With thre recent ban of urshifu teams now lost another solid check to spectrier while counters like mandibuzz tyranitar obstagoon and blissey need to stay healthy to deal with specs teammates often dropping to its ko range. I vote: BAN.

 

[Coach Jones $]

111
Spectrier is extremely restricting in the ss ou metagame and in my opinion deserves to be banned. With incredible speed and special attack and with how spammable ghost moves are in the current mega it’s very hard to keep in check without one of the few normal or dark types. With players finding out how good sub cm spectrier is mons like blissey that would seem like a hard wall just lose. And if spectrier has a calm mind up then that teleport into dragapult won’t save. Other normal types that players sometimes use include obstagoon and exploud which is a hard wall but it has recovery issues so it’s very hard for it to stay alive long term espically with burn constantly chipping it. Exploud can deal with it but once you burn it and let it constantly take chip from entry hazards it’s hard to keep it check. Viable Dark types include mandibuzz, hydreigon tyranitar and zarude. Spectrier can not really do much to the last three although if u burn hydreigon then get in spectrier vs something else and secure a few calm minds dark pulse from defensive hydreigon won’t be doing much. Zarude and tyranitar are hard walls to be fair since zarude has jungle healing to heal off burn, resist all of its moves besides hyper beam and can kill it with one darkest lariat while ttar has the special bulk increase with sand resist everything besides mud shot and can run rest and crunch to give spectrier a very hard time. But sometimes fitting these dark types onto your team can be hard and it’s still restricting you to run a mon to deal with spectrier or else you just lose to it’s ghost moves. Overall spectrier is extremely restrictive in the ss ou metagame and deserves to be banned.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Ok guys, so spectrier, its one true counter is rest tyranitar, it being forced to rest is a pain for it since going to sleep is just playing at a 5v6 since hex, even thought its not bursting throught tyrantiar is doing a crap ton with hazards and especially hard to wake ttar up once the opponent starts double switching into their ttar counters like landorus-t, garchomp, urshifu-r forcing tyrantiar to switch and instead being forced to take rocks and maybe spikes chip once it comes back in. Even though ttar takes 13-18% from hex is very little, being asleep is calling yourself to be shot at. Also, another big thing is that tyranitar is not as flexable to slap onto teams unlike hydreigon, blissey, mandibuzz which means spectrier is leading to mons thrown onto playstyles that would be unfit for it like Balance offense. Hydreigon, blissey, and mandibuzz are 3 other pokemon that are supposed counters. Mandibuzz is a good counter on paper but falls to being very overeliant on not being toxic'ed or lose its heavy duty boots since after that its going to very struggle to keep up to being able to check spectrier, from being forced to defog to not take rocks damage, taking poison damage, and taking 23 min from hex on top of that its all gonna rack up over a match and its gonna fall as a counter. Hydreigon is next, i thought snarl hydreigon was a good counter to spectrier but the standard set still gives it trouble, hydreigon gets 3hko'ed by hex with it being burned which is pretty bad already, but after being chipped to ~90% its gonna fall to hex since its a 2hko, specs straight up 2hko hydreigon regardless of the set, and scarf beats hydreigon with repeated attacks since hydreigon is forced to roost and can be given a switch in directly into a threat. Blissey falls to sub CM dark pulse but beats everything else. But also its gonna be dead weight in some matchups where it may be pressured at every corner besides spectrier. So yeah, i feel like spectrier is very team restricting and if you don't have normal or dark you lose pretty much

 

[Sensemaker]

I want to say that everything i said before is my opinion and i love to run T-Tar in OU and i always run it and i also use special set that is really unexpected for opponent. Dealing with Spectrier is very easy at least for me. I never had problems trying to wall this horse thing. Nothing bad in having different opinion, isn't it?

Edit: Okay, people, maybe you're right. So just slap spectrier with Banhammer!

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion whatsoever, however, this discussion thread is set up for the determination of whether Spectrier should or should not be banned, with people supporting those opinions with arguments for their point. A simple sharing of opinion would be better suited for the metagame discussion thread where you can share your opinion and potentially hear others' opinions on the same topic, without the need for substantial in-depth discussion.

With that said, I do not have anything additional to contribute to this discussion but I would like to distill what I have gathered from the previous pages of heated conversation whether Spectrier is or is not too much for OU. I went into this with an open mind and completely neutral on whether this Pokemon should be banned or not. The pro-ban argument largely comes down to the fact that it is believed Spectrier is too constricting in the teambuilder, while the anti-ban argument largely comes down to the fact that it is believed that there are enough checks and counters to Spectrier in OU.

Personally, based on my experience, I would really have to lean with the pro-ban side. The biggest thing for me, is that viable Pokemon are forced to run sub-optimal sets in order to safely handle Spectrier. SpDef TTar is not a bad 'Mon by any means, but without Rest it cannot be called a true counter due to being whittled down by hazards/status, and with Rest, it is suboptimal. Hydreigon and Blissey are other good examples of OU capable 'Mons forced into running suboptimal sets to deal with Spectrier. The former has to use a defensive set when it REALLY wants to be a NP breaker or Choice user, while the latter is forced to run Shadow Ball in order to not be a sitting duck against Spectrier, a move which once again is slotted soley for Spectrier. Finally, the onsalught of Normal/Dark type Pokemon that really have no place being in OU or are fringe viable at best, only due to their role in checking the horse (Obstagoon, Exploud, Mandibuzz to a lesser extent).

I have to say, the pro-ban side has convinced me. I cannot see Spectrier staying in OU leading to a more healthy metagame due to the restriction it poses in teambuilder, and I will be voting BAN in this suspect, provided I finish reqs.

 

[AquaVanilla]

Nidoking. Nidoking is a great scarfer because of its coverage options. It can be a special attacker or a physical attacker and both sets have coverage options. Physical has throat chop and special has shadow ball. Both of these moves threaten spectrier.
252+ Atk Sheer Force Nidoking Throat Chop vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spectrier: 318-376 (93.2 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Spectrier: 224-264 (65.6 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Based on these calcs you obviously wanna run the physical set if your team struggles against Spectrier. Don't get too confident though. Spectrier's speed will easily 2HKO it. You need sr from ferrothorn or to catch spectrier on the switch.

I do agree that spectrier is banworthy, but saying scarf nidoking is a check is wrong. Scarf nidoking is a really ass mon itself and provides nothing in a team. Scarf nidoking is hella weak and you need predictions with it. Scarf nidoking is a unset, LO is legit the best the best and the better.

 

[Ur local kangaroo]

Time to talk about Pegasus being a Jackass


This mon is honestly one of the most annoying mons in the metagame, and for good reason; it has a very good speed tier, Calm Mind and Nasty Plot, along with Substitute, and the big one; 145 Sp.atk. The bad part is; it has very bad bulk, 100 Hp is okay, but what are you going to bulk off when you have 60 Def and 80 Sp.Def? It has bad match-ups against Rilaboom, and other obscure move-sets for mons (i.e. Blissey with Shadow Ball (Rest on Tyranitar).

From a Power-stand point, It's great, and awful at the same time. Spectrier has an awful move-pool, It only gets Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse, and Hex for good Sp.atks, and Hex while good, it only fits on Will-O-Wisp Spectrier, and the final move-slot could be reserved for something slightly more useful, like Dark Pulse or Taunt; and great because of having the third highest Sp.atk in OU, and having Priority is almost required to beat Spectrier (which sounds like a broken mon) Normal types outside of the Chansey line don't do much other than being really Niche picks for countering Spectrier, Dark types do well against, but the meta-game really centralizes on Spectrier.

From a centralization standpoint, this mon is too much for the meta-game, it destroys; the late-game, mons that stall a lot, and anything that's not a Normal or Dark type, Blissey can't do anything once Spectrier sets up substitute, TTar with rest is waaaaaaaaaaaay too niche to have viabillity in OU
(just use Crunch), Obstagoon... since when was this mon viable post-DLC? Mandibuzz does kind of well against Spectrier, and Dragapult can cheese Sub-sets; this mon has been harassing the metagame for too long, so....

I'm gonna be voting: BAN

 

[zakurenai]

Spectrier

I'm super late, but whatever. Just came here to say Nightmare Moon thicc horse isn't anywhere near broken (lol wut).

Spectrier isn't like Urshifu, Pheromosa, Landorus-I, Genesect, and Naganadel. Against a competent opponent and well-built team, it cannot brute force its way through. Its only attacking move that hits harder than a Magikarp Splash is Shadow Ball. Which means as long as your Dark-type or Blissey is still alive, Spectrier is Shedinja-tier dead weight (no exaggeration, it literally has to switch out because it has no other moves lol). The moment Spectrier became a problem for any of my teams, I just slapped on literally any Dark type (Hydreigon is my favorite), switch it in on Shadow Ball, and get free momentum to fire off a Specs Draco Meteor in the same fashion that Specs Tapu Lele gets free OHKOs whenever my silly opponent switches in their "cheap" Toxapex lol. Having a Wobbuffet-tier movepool DOES in fact balance Spectrier's insane stats, Ability, and excellent offensive typing. It's never been broken. It's more of a "noob stomper" like Shell Smash mons, Regieleki, and Impostor Ditto. I'm honestly surprised people on here are even entertaining the idea of banning it. Git gud lmao. And no, I don't use the ghost horse because it is actually quite awful (only 1 attacking move makes it more predictable than Cloyster)

If I was voting obv it would be "do not ban because it ain't broken"

P.S. Its literal ONLY attacking move is totally negated by 1 of the 18 typings in the game (so it's nothing like Dracovish or Le Wicked Blow Man where nothing is immune to Dark), and it also gets dabbed on by Bulletproof users that are already good enough to be used in OU anyway (Clangorous Soul/Iron Defense+STAB Body Press Kommo'o). Why do people want to ban this cute horse? lol

P.P.S. And yes, I'm aware of the stallbreaker set that deals with Blisseys. It still insta-loses to Dark-types (and even Infiltrator Dragapult lmao)

Basically this thing has 9001 answers to it, stop whining

 

[BT89]

Its only attacking move that hits harder than a Magikarp Splash is Shadow Ball.

Wisp Hex is one of the best sets and is able to deal with many would-be checks. Dark Pulse allows it to chip other would-be checks. Also, Spectrier is also broken due to its crazy support movepool, with Taunt and Disable ruining many possible checks.

The moment Spectrier became a problem for any of my teams, I just slapped on literally any Dark type (Hydreigon is my favorite), switch it in on Shadow Ball, and get free momentum to fire off a Specs Draco Meteor in the same fashion that Specs Tapu Lele gets free OHKOs whenever my silly opponent switches in their "cheap" Toxapex lol.

Only SpDef Hydreigon can check Spectrier, as otherwise, it gets destroyed by the Sub Hex set. Mandibuzz loses to Sub Disable. Obstagoon gets chipped far too hard to be an efficient check. Tyranitar has to rely on Rest, which allows it to be chipped and be set up fodder. Dark types generally loses to Spec overall.

Git gud lmao. And no, I don't use the ghost horse because it is actually quite awful (only 1 attacking move makes it more predictable than Cloyster)

There are many Spectrier variants that use more than Shadow Ball, with Hex, Dark Pulse, and Mud Shot being used on multiple sets, the latter two mainly on Specs. You seem to be ignoring most sets besides Specs because there are quite a few Spectrier sets.

Overall, this analysis on Spectrier is quite flawed, mainly due to it ignoring some of the biggest features of Spectrier.

 

[Baloor]

snip

something I find ironic about these do not ban posts is that what they propose as a argument to not ban spectrier is actually the exact reason why its unhealthy for the tier. "just run one of these x mons and you do not lose" seems like a valid argument until you really break it down, and trust me it really falls apart with very little exploration into the the topic.

i already made a post about this, in this very thread, just like many others but i think its worth restating. forcing somebody to run shit mons or mid sets just to check a threat is very unhealthy for the metagame.

let me list these sets/mons thats only real niche is because of the threat spect imposes on teambuilding; rest ttar, spdef hydreigon, knock + foul play mandibuzz (however mandibuzz's existance also is primarily because of spect, its a poor mon outside of that really), obstagoon, exploud, p2, zarude, audino, snorlax (to an extent, has a niche outside of spect), shadowball blissey (this is fucking hilarious though)

alongside a bunch of other mons that have no business in the tier (noctowl for example has been discussed in this thread)

this isnt a case of the metagame adapting to a threat like a lot of these dnb posts claim due to being forced to run "heat", this is the case of a single threat forcing people to essentially run a 5 mon team + your choice of shit set/mon that will likely be deadweight if you dont face spectrier.

i dont know about you but frankly im tired of being forced to run 5 mon teams

 

[658Greninja]

Spectrier

I'm super late, but whatever. Just came here to say Nightmare Moon thicc horse isn't anywhere near broken (lol wut).

Spectrier isn't like Urshifu, Pheromosa, Landorus-I, Genesect, and Naganadel. Against a competent opponent and well-built team, it cannot brute force its way through. Its only attacking move that hits harder than a Magikarp Splash is Shadow Ball. Which means as long as your Dark-type or Blissey is still alive, Spectrier is Shedinja-tier dead weight (no exaggeration, it literally has to switch out because it has no other moves lol). The moment Spectrier became a problem for any of my teams, I just slapped on literally any Dark type (Hydreigon is my favorite), switch it in on Shadow Ball, and get free momentum to fire off a Specs Draco Meteor in the same fashion that Specs Tapu Lele gets free OHKOs whenever my silly opponent switches in their "cheap" Toxapex lol. Having a Wobbuffet-tier movepool DOES in fact balance Spectrier's insane stats, Ability, and excellent offensive typing. It's never been broken. It's more of a "noob stomper" like Shell Smash mons, Regieleki, and Impostor Ditto. I'm honestly surprised people on here are even entertaining the idea of banning it. Git gud lmao. And no, I don't use the ghost horse because it is actually quite awful (only 1 attacking move makes it more predictable than Cloyster)

If I was voting obv it would be "do not ban because it ain't broken"

P.S. Its literal ONLY attacking move is totally negated by 1 of the 18 typings in the game (so it's nothing like Dracovish or Le Wicked Blow Man where nothing is immune to Dark), and it also gets dabbed on by Bulletproof users that are already good enough to be used in OU anyway (Clangorous Soul/Iron Defense+STAB Body Press Kommo'o). Why do people want to ban this cute horse? lol

I would like to share something.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-537216

This is a replay from week 1 of SPL. One of the biggest Smogon tournaments. This is a game between two players who are one of the best in Gen 8 OU. It’s a bold statement to say Spect is a “noob trap”, especially in this replay.

From team preview, Xray’s opponent has two checks and a Dark type in Mandibuzz. A non-burnt Ferro can sometimes prevent Spect from subing up for free. There is also the combination of Mandibuzz and Pult (which is revealed to be Specs) in order to take a hit, U-Turn out and rkill it with Pult. In theory Talah has enough tools to keep Spect from forcing progress, but as you can see from the replay, it’s not.

Turn 44-45, Xray brings in Spect on a burnt Ferro. Since Ferro can’t break the sub, Spectrier is given a free opportunity to set up.

Turn 48-49, Talah tries to break the sub with Specs Mag, but since his Pult can’t rkill a +2 Spectrier, he goes to Mandi to try to cripple it to Shadow Ball range. This backfires as Spect cripples the Mandi with wisp, meaning Mandi can no longer break the sub.

Even though Spect isn’t the one to sweep the rest of the team, it opened up room for Xray’s Sub-SD Chomp to sweep lategame.

The issue with Spect is that unlike grounds, waters, and steels, the number of viable defensive normal/dark types is very limited. It’s basically Mandi, Ttar, Blissey, Hydreigon, Goon, Zarude, and Goltres. 3 of these are 2HKOd by Specs Hex if burnt, 3 of them have no reliable recovery, 4 of them lose to Sub-Disable, and Blissey loses to Sub-CM if it is not at full pp. Zarude is U-Turn bait and Goltres is only really viable on HO styles. The rest either can’t take hits from Choice Specs, hate getting burnt, or are unviable outside of checking Spectrier. Can’t wait for the horse to be banned so I can use NP Hydreigon again.

 

[zakurenai]

something I find ironic about these do not ban posts is that what they propose as a argument to not ban spectrier is actually the exact reason why its unhealthy for the tier. "just run one of these x mons and you do not lose" seems like a valid argument until you really break it down, and trust me it really falls apart with very little exploration into the the topic.

i already made a post about this, in this very thread, just like many others but i think its worth restating. forcing somebody to run shit mons or mid sets just to check a threat is very unhealthy for the metagame.

let me list these sets/mons thats only real niche is because of the threat spect imposes on teambuilding; rest ttar, spdef hydreigon, knock + foul play mandibuzz (however mandibuzz's existance also is primarily because of spect, its a poor mon outside of that really), obstagoon, exploud, p2, zarude, audino, snorlax (to an extent, has a niche outside of spect), shadowball blissey (this is fucking hilarious though)

alongside a bunch of other mons that have no business in the tier (noctowl for example has been discussed in this thread)

this isnt a case of the metagame adapting to a threat like a lot of these dnb posts claim due to being forced to run "heat", this is the case of a single threat forcing people to essentially run a 5 mon team + your choice of shit set/mon that will likely be deadweight if you dont face spectrier.

i dont know about you but frankly im tired of being forced to run 5 mon teams

I gave lots of examples to show that there are lots of answers to Spectrier. People are most likely just salty about Grim Neigh's snowballing potential.
At some point the sheer variety of answers that include mons that would be used in OU anyway means that the threat in question does not in fact force you to run some jank NU mon to deal with it (see: Seismitoad for Dracovish).
Dragapult deals with Substitute sets, Blissey deals with literally every set except for the stallbreaker one, any semi-bulky Dark-type (Hydreigon, Mandibuzz, Tyranitar) totally dabs on Spectrier, and Bulletproof mons are the cherry on top.
Again, people are most likely just salty that a Spectrier swept them late game for whatever reason, but it's not broken. It's not like it's forcing you to run Specially Defensive Vileplume or Comfey

There are many Spectrier variants that use more than Shadow Ball, with Hex, Dark Pulse, and Mud Shot being used on multiple sets, the latter two mainly on Specs. You seem to be ignoring most sets besides Specs because there are quite a few Spectrier sets.

Overall, this analysis on Spectrier is quite flawed, mainly due to it ignoring some of the biggest features of Spectrier.

You seem to be forgetting that Spectrier can only run 4 moves

Ausma edit: Merged your posts into one; please don't double post!!!

 

[Faless__]

Dragapult deals with Substitute sets

It can't switch in and specs shadow ball doesn't kill at +1

Blissey deals with literally every set except for the stallbreaker one

It becomes setup fodder because it can do nothing to it

any semi-bulky Dark-type (Hydreigon, Mandibuzz, Tyranitar) totally dabs on Spectrier, and Bulletproof mons are the cherry on top.

Tyranitar gets worn down throughout the match, Hydreigon loses to Specs getting 2HKOd by Hex once it's statused, and Mandibuzz can't break substitutes with Foul Play once it's burned so it has to resort to U-Turning to a Dragapult that, again, doesn't kill at +1, and bulletproof mons are barely immune to Shadow Ball, and can get crippled by burn and die to Hex.

You seem to be forgetting that Spectrier can only run 4 moves

Did you hear about running different sets? Being versatile? Do you know there's a reason it's arguably the third best pokemon in the meta?
Your analysis seems to be very short sighted and ignoring things that commonly happen like Spectrier setting up on a Blissey that is obliged to Teleport to a Dragapult to check spectrier offensively, and not considering that there are variations that it can run to overcome most of them, or just let its checks get worn down throughout the match easily because they lack reliable recovery.

 

[Armageddonsspike]

You seem to be forgetting that Spectrier can only run 4 moves

Lemme Break it down so you get a general Idea. You know that every mon is limited to 4 moves. Different teams use different sets which can falter the reliability of some checks ( make the checks to some sets not work on others. ) Lets say you have a Mandibuzz right. Its made specifically to deal with Spectrier's Specs set. If they come out popping with hex, you are scewed.

 

[zakurenai]

The issue with Spect is that unlike grounds, waters, and steels, the number of viable defensive normal/dark types is very limited. It’s basically Mandi, Ttar, Blissey, Hydreigon, Goon, Zarude, and Goltres

Bruh you just listed almost ten mons lol
I thought it was "overcentralizing and forces players to run AV Gigalith, etc."
You then go on to mention a burned Ferrothorn that 100% did not start the battle that way (lol)
Even Shedinja and Volcarona would be Ubers if "all supereffective mons were removed earlier in the battle" or "Toxapex was Perish Trapped already"
This is a discussion whether Spectrier is SUPER BROKEN to the point where it can no longer exist in OU, and it just doesn't seem that overbearing to me imo

 

[McCoolDude]

Spectrier

I'm super late, but whatever. Just came here to say Nightmare Moon thicc horse isn't anywhere near broken (lol wut).

Spectrier isn't like Urshifu, Pheromosa, Landorus-I, Genesect, and Naganadel. Against a competent opponent and well-built team, it cannot brute force its way through. Its only attacking move that hits harder than a Magikarp Splash is Shadow Ball. Which means as long as your Dark-type or Blissey is still alive, Spectrier is Shedinja-tier dead weight (no exaggeration, it literally has to switch out because it has no other moves lol). The moment Spectrier became a problem for any of my teams, I just slapped on literally any Dark type (Hydreigon is my favorite), switch it in on Shadow Ball, and get free momentum to fire off a Specs Draco Meteor in the same fashion that Specs Tapu Lele gets free OHKOs whenever my silly opponent switches in their "cheap" Toxapex lol. Having a Wobbuffet-tier movepool DOES in fact balance Spectrier's insane stats, Ability, and excellent offensive typing. It's never been broken. It's more of a "noob stomper" like Shell Smash mons, Regieleki, and Impostor Ditto. I'm honestly surprised people on here are even entertaining the idea of banning it. Git gud lmao. And no, I don't use the ghost horse because it is actually quite awful (only 1 attacking move makes it more predictable than Cloyster)

If I was voting obv it would be "do not ban because it ain't broken"

P.S. Its literal ONLY attacking move is totally negated by 1 of the 18 typings in the game (so it's nothing like Dracovish or Le Wicked Blow Man where nothing is immune to Dark), and it also gets dabbed on by Bulletproof users that are already good enough to be used in OU anyway (Clangorous Soul/Iron Defense+STAB Body Press Kommo'o). Why do people want to ban this cute horse? lol

P.P.S. And yes, I'm aware of the stallbreaker set that deals with Blisseys. It still insta-loses to Dark-types (and even Infiltrator Dragapult lmao)

Basically this thing has 9001 answers to it, stop whining

This isn't even remotely true. Spectrier frequently uses hex, hazards, burn damage, and weather damage to break past opposing dark types. Normal types are typically much more difficult to break, but many of them are just as abused by sub+calm mind, or are worn down by hazards and status over the course of the match.

+1 172 SpA Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 164 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 178-210 (48.6 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage

92 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. +1 112 HP / 20 SpD Spectrier: 176-210 (47.6 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This is: spect wisp'd hydreigon on the first switch in and calm minded on the second. It took about half damage and easily secured the 2HKO.

I could list many scenarios where dark types are overwhelmed by a combination of weather, status, and just sheer power - as it turns out, OU is a 6v6 meta and there are plenty of ways to passively apply pressure to an opposing mon. There are replays in this thread that show spectrier breaking past prominent bulky dark types.

Do you even play this metagame? I'm earnestly asking at this point.

You seem to be forgetting that Spectrier can only run 4 moves

Dragapult deals with Substitute sets, Blissey deals with literally every set except for the stallbreaker one, any semi-bulky Dark-type (Hydreigon, Mandibuzz, Tyranitar) totally dabs on Spectrier, and Bulletproof mons are the cherry on top.

You seem to be forgetting that you only have 6 mons and might not even face spectrier.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

That spectrier analysis is bad, do you relize how it breaks through everything and you dont know whats its runnning until you find out the hard way? Well that is the case, it can be running specs and ur so called hydreigon that got burned earlier from a scald is a straight up 2hko. did you switch into blissey thinking you would hard wall this thing and get sub CM dark pulsed, tough luck. Did you think dragapult could stop it? WRONG.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. +1 112 HP / 20 SpD Spectrier: 258-306 (69.9 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
68 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 112 HP / 20 Def Spectrier: 198-234 (53.6 - 63.4%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Did you think your mandibuzz could counter spectrier? wrong

0- Atk burned Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 20 Def Spectrier: 94-112 (23.2 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Because once you are burned you cannot consistently break sub and at +2 which is achivable u just 2hko with hex. Mandbizz also has to worry about keeping its boots too since many stuff carry knock even rockers like clef, ferro who has spikes and toxapex who wants to setup toxic spikes.

Also, you say spectrier can only run 4 moves, but then u also have to figure out which 4 moves it is running it could be sub hex? could it be specs? maybe NP dark pulse? There is no consistent awnser to it but umbreon and tyrantiar which umbreon is unviable and tyrantiar is forced to rest since being burned over the course of the game neatrilizes the recovery of leftovers and halves its attack basicly making it a sitting duck. If it does rest and try to check spectrier it is open to all sorts of attacks and is taken advantage of so easily because of it being asleep. Dragapult dosen't even ohko if its not specs and has to be brought in via port, the only way spectrier ohkos is with phantom force which is a bad move to use since its so easy to abuse. Obstagoon is forced to run rest or have wish given to it since it is hindered by flame orb. If you run leftovers you are weak since the only reason to use goon is guts flame orb. Like 658Greninja said about the replay, it punched holes in order for pokemon to sweep, it weakened mons such as mandibuzz and ferrothorn to give garchomp the easiest time of its life to sweep. I think you are missing the point my guy, I think that having to restrict your team to run 2 or more checks just to not fall to the several sets that spectrier can run seems at bit restricting dosen't it? Maybe the fact that its checks are beaten by the sets it can have is showing to be unhealthy for the metagame and you shouldn't build your team like that. Let me summarize it very quick, It is like urshifu, if you don't have a clefable which in this case is hydreigon (loses to wisp hex and specs hex), tyranitar (hates being burned and forced to rest to coninuasly check spectrier over a period of time. Mandibuzz and blissey both check specs but fall to Sub wisp, or to sub dark pulse. Also you might not even face spectrier, so the mons you just put to check it may be dead weight and accomplish little to nothing in the match. Its like saying I shall bring weezing-g to counter urshifu, weezing does do well but its dead weight against teams that dont have urshifu-s and gets beaten up by any special move thrown at it. Maybe you will convince yourself that spectrier is broken one day. But for now, the majority of the community votes BAN because of how restricting it is, how easily it snowballs teams, and its ability to muscle through checks.

 

[Faless__]

Bruh you just listed almost ten mons lol

Out of those seven mons, one becomes setup fodder, another gets easily worn down and relies on sand to take attacks, the third one can do nothing to it, the fourth one loses to specs which isn't even rare, and the rest are unviable shitmons that people are using to check Spectrier.

You then go on to mention a burned Ferrothorn that 100% did not start the battle that way (lol)

Spectrier could've burned it on the switch anyways so that's a really bad hill to die on