Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 7 - Killer Queen

Status
Not open for further replies.

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
See, I'm going to be completely honest, i don't see why Pheromosa was picked before Magearna. I finished reqs and got to like 1755 while doing it, and i honestly don't feel Phero is anywhere near as broken as gear. It's buffs its got in this gen completely push it over the edge and way beyond unbalanced to me. This thing requires a Heatran minimum, and while heatran is a good pokemon and all, it can still lose if its not like magma taunt, and even then you can lose with a little bad luck. Also, screens with magearna is absolutely silly. It's absolutely easy to send it in late game or even mid game and simply win on the spot. Phero is silly but atleast it has managable ways of revenge killing it once it gets going with priority. Magearna doesn't have that atall, and i think the dumbest part about it is how the buffs it got completely removed most ways of handling it. Stored power removed Toxapex, amoongus, and sortof moltres as soft checks. Draining kiss makes breaking it almost impossible without a Heatran.

Even beyond this one set, the specs set is incredibly strong and while not as good as the set above, it's still hard to switch into and if you predict wrong it actually just claims a Pokemon each time. While less common i will say that shift gear physical magearna is also atleast worth mentioning as a set, as it turns heatran into a free kill and perhaps the game on the spot if screens are up.

I'm not personally sure whether i feel pheromosa is broken or not, I haven't played for too long in this meta, but i can honestly say for certain that magearna was worse.
Normally would delete this because it's entirely off topic, but I'll bite for the sake of transparency.

Magearna was not picked to be the suspect and it was not even really considered for a number of reasons. First off, it received notably less support than Pheromosa from the playerbase survey. Both Pokemon received more than average amounts, but it was clear more people found Pheromosa problematic. It is also worth noting that this survey was before Quiver Dance Pheromosa even surfaced in the metagame, which in the opinion of many pushed it over even further. Second off, Pheromosa has been on the council's radar for far longer, the subject of many more (entirely justified) discussions in this forum, and previously was just 1-2 votes away from being grouped in the first slate of quickbans. Meanwhile Magearna did not even qualify for that slate and has been only discussed sporadically, with your post being one of the first to call for it to be suspeced before Pheromosa or Spectrier. Finally, the council was unanimously in favor of suspecting Pheromosa, with some people even contemplating if it was quickban worthy, whereas the support level was not the same for Magearna at all.

I am not even going to get into responding to your logic because this is clearly not the place. I personally believe it is plausible we see an SS OU with Magearna suspected in the future despite this, too, but this is simply not the thread for discussion of it. There is a metagame discussion thread, a hyperlink to PMing the council in the OP of this thread, and my personal PMs are always open if you do not want to message the collective. There are numerous outlets to voice complaints about the system and I have went well out of my way to be transparent, so seeing posts like this with potential to derail the suspect thread is disappointing.

I am only leaving this up to make an example and say that any future posts that derail the thread will be deleted and potentially infracted. And as I said before, there are numerous places that are easily accessible to voice these opinions and I am always willing to hear people out, so do not hesitate to use them.
 
I managed to finish getting my reqs for the suspect today and now that I'm done I would like to very briefly share my thoughts on Pheromosa

Pheromosa is an incredibly potent and versatile Pokemon that is capable of breaking through would be answers with a myriad of potential options. It has very powerful mixed attacking stats and the speed to outpace literally every unboosted Pokemon except (the subpar) Regieleki, meaning that in most cases it will always be hitting first. It's movepool is not too disappointing either, full of coverage moves such as Throat Chop, Drill Run, Triple Axel, Poison Jab, Ice Beam, and Shock Wave.. There are a multitude of viable sets, going from Choice Band, Heavy Duty Boots, Quiver Dance, etc. (I've even seen Specs before I did the test), all of which have different counterplay. It is ridiculously hard for someone to try to prep for all of these sets and coverage moves without limiting their team structure to an absurd degree. For instance, a team whose Pheromosa answer is Toxapex will be unable to reliably stop a Quiver Dance Pheromosa (and also dislikes Banded Drill Run or Future Sight support), while a Galarian Slowking would have to fear a Banded Pheromosa going for U-turn or Throat Chop/Drill Run. Even better for Pheromosa, Beast Boost allows it to raise a stat each time it gets a kill, making it either faster than literally anything except a Barraskewda in rain or a random Scarf Regieleki (which nobody will run ever), or make it even harder to wall with an attack or special attack boost. I have used Quiver Dance Pheromosa the entire suspect run and I have absolutely seen how easily it can steamroll through an entire team with it's near perfect coverage simply because they assumed that I was physical and I either boosted on the switch or outright killed the switch. Even if they knew I was specially offensive, they oftentimes lacked the counterplay for it anyways apart from hoping for a lucky Focus Blast miss, allowing me to sweep through their entire teams.

All in all, I think that while Pheromosa does have some minor flaws, such as pathetic bulk, they are absolutely far outweighed by it's incredible positives, and it is a very restricting presence in the metagame with incredible snowball potential and I will be voting BAN.
 
Screenshot (14).png


Due to Phera's incredible offensive stats, ability to run multiple incredibly hard to wall sets and most of all it's crazy speed tier on top of all of that, that makes it necessary to run high speed mons such as weather abusers, scarf pult or prio users to even hope to beat it after a kill.

I will be voting Ban.
 
This is going to be a ban for sure haha.

I do think that Pheromosa is quite problematic. Imo, it's not that broken compared to the things that were banned before it, but it's indeed a powerful threat, that is really strong alongside Urshifu, Mag and Spectrier.

While it has a 4 move slot syndrome, and when you now its set, it makes it easier to play around it, I think it's still ban-worth material. I'm really happy that, even if the ban was obvious by the community, we still got the chance to test it. Excepting cases like Genesects, I find it as the best way to go.

This time it was closer than gen 7. Who knows, maybe gen 9 power creep will push down Phero finally in OU. But for now, it's a healthy mon to ban.
 

guilt trips

flawless creation
hey, i got reqs. i dont think pheromosa is nearly as broken as people say it is, so i will be voting no ban

i think the versatility of pheromosa is completely overblown out of proportion. i think pheromosa is one of the best pokemon in the tier by far, but not broken nor unhealthy enough to warrant a ban.

there are essentially 2 main sets that people talk about, with a couple of miscellaneous sets that may add to its unpredictability but do not push it over the edge. The 2 main sets im talking about of course, are the CHOICE BAND set and the QUIVER DANCE 3 ATTACKS set.

choice band sets are first, prediction reliant as its not nearly as spammable as something like cb urshifu, can be tanked by a good number of pokemon in the tier, punished because it relies on contact moves (rocky helmet, flame body), and suffers from 4MSS as the last slot will always leave it to be walled by other things. rocky helmet toxapex is one of the most common defensive behemoths in the tier which punishes mindless u turn/cc spam. even if you run drill run on the last slot, it only does around 55% if you're adamant, and then pex can switch out and regen the dmg off, switch to a ground resist, and you wouldve taken the rh damage and get chipped. not only toxapex, but rocky helmet buzzwole also completely walls you as well, and punishes u turn spam. rh damge may not seem too much, but that small damage can mean the difference between your phero living or dying to shit like urshifu sucker punch or rillaboom grassy glide now, considering how frail it is. moltres/zapdos/volcarona all tank cb phero's hits easily as well, and they all have a significant chance to disable phero if it contacts them as well. especially in the case of moltres & zapdos, the only way you can break past them is with cb triple axel, which only 2hkoes moltres, and you then have a 65.7% chance to be burned/paralyzed. defensive volcarona tanks any hit regardless. if you run drill run over poison jab on the last slot, you get walled by both fini and clef (and rocky helmet clef is also starting to become a thing to dmg brainless u turn spam) and will not be able to break them in the long run. if you run poison jab > drill run, then pex walls you even more, and you're also completely stopped cold by aegi as well. this is all assuming phero picks the right move too, as its very prediction reliant in a metagame where contact moves can be severely punished

qd 3 attacks phero is the next set which people claim push pheromosa over the edge. i dont see how thats the case at all. qd 3 attacks first, rely on focus blast way too often which is always a 30% chance death sentence for something as frail as pheromosa. obviously, that should never be used as the main argument in saying that its not broken, but it illustrates how inconsistent qd sets can potentially be in practice. qd 3 attacks also have a solid amount of checks in the metagame as well. its not nearly this unstoppable sweeper people are hyping it up to be. qd phero with focus blast, ice beam, and shock wave, is walled by aegi. its also walled by av magearna. its stopped cold by volcarona. av slowking is starting to become a thing which completely walls qd sets as well. defensive marowak alola beats it, unaware clef ignores all boosts and tanks ice beam easily, and shock wave is so pitifully weak that even at +1, it does 70% max to tapu fini and +1 spdef isnt enough bulk to let you live an uninvested moonblast.

mixed 4 atks lo/hdb is even easier to wall with toxapex, clef, fini, moltres, volcarona, buzzwole with enough spdef to tank ice beam, etc. numerous people in this thread claim that walling one phero set is not enough because its versatility makes it extremely unpredictable to the point if you can handle one phero set well, then the other beats you, and theres nothing that can reliably switch in on both. i dont get how this is true at all???

defensive volcarona is a legitimate set that handles both variants 100%, and has a 30% chance of crippling phys attacker phero just by switching in. the most commonly used defensive core in the tier, clefable + toxapex, wall all phero sets if its unaware clef and rh pex. you can switch either one on phero turn 1 without fear and scout its set with no repercussions. for instance, you can switch pex in turn 1, worst case scenario phero qds, then shock waves turn 2. however, after pex initially switches in on the qd, you can just switch in the unaware clef next turn and take nothing from shock wave. a good number of checks can safely switch in vast majority of phero sets, like aegi, moltres (even +1 shock wave doesnt kill if you have enough spdef), fini, etc.

so many people think pheromosa is too difficult to manage especially with future sight being so prevalent in the tier. this is irrelevant. you know what else is extremely difficult to manage with future sight support? things like MAGEARNA, URSHIFU, and even cinderace. and no one is complaining about these pokemon when they're probably even more difficult to switch in on AND can provide defensive utility. if anything, ban future sight, dont just scapegoat pheromosa because it happens to abuse it.






...... okay the last part was a joke, i am well aware that numerous people complain about magearna & urshifu, and future sight should definitely not be banned
 
Edit: changed my mind...voting for ban.

Just got reqs. To be upfront, I will likely be voting no ban on Pheromosa. It is obviously an amazing Pokemon--nobody needs an explanation as to why at this point. I'd like to recommend this post in the metagame discussion thread, specifically the last section on Mosa. It presents Mosa in a way that is not just about her raw power, but rather what she adds and takes away from the current metagame, noting that the net result is healthy.

In teambuilding, I don't specifically think "I need a Mosa counter." Rather, a well-built team should already have the tools necessary to deal with it. For example, it is always a good idea to bring priority, which mosa cannot eat, and/or a scarfer (scarf fini is seeing some use to get the jump on her). A decent defensive core can scout the Mosa's set without falling behind in the match. Even HO is not destroyed by Mosa as Eleki has become a popular screens setter to outspeed her where Koko might've gotten OHKO'd by banded poison jab.

Mosa has incredible coverage, but it's better than it should be at the moment. What I mean by this is that no Mosa is running throat chop. Bulky ghosts, primarily Aegislash, hard wall every Mosa set currently on the ladder. However, Aegislash and some other potential ghost checks to Mosa are simply nonexistent in OU, thanks to a certain ghost-stomping duo that may or may not be touched upon in the post linked in the first paragraph. As soon as Mosa needs to consider throat chop, it loses out on being able to cover several other Pokemon that it currently can.

To once again echo the post linked above, I believe there is a certain order these suspect tests should take, and I don't believe it should start with Mosa. She herself is not the sole reason she is as strong as she currently is, and even then, I believe her to be more than manageable.
 
Last edited:

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
A decent defensive core can scout the Mosa's set without falling behind in the match.
Realistically if this core does not always have Clef and/or Pex, then I don’t see how there’s any room for scouting it. A single errant move or turn of the opponent predicting you and suddenly you may be down a Pokemon against a booster Pheromosa. There is not only a lack of hard counters to Pheromosa, but there is also a lack of universal checks to it outside of a very limited pool of Pokemon.

Even HO is not destroyed by Mosa as Eleki has become a popular screens setter to outspeed her where Koko might've gotten OHKO'd by banded poison jab.
On a good day, HO is just playing kill-for-kill games with Pheromosa if it has priority. A speed boosting Pheromosa is otherwise a huge problem for these teams, arguably being one of the biggest issues for HO. And in the games that come down to trading with it, it’s easier for balance to get Pheromosa in with pivoting moves than it is HO to force kills while assuring the RK/switch of Pheromosa. Calling HO ok against Pheromosa simply isn’t true.
 

Perish Song

flaunt
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnus
so many people think pheromosa is too difficult to manage especially with future sight being so prevalent in the tier. this is irrelevant. you know what else is extremely difficult to manage with future sight support? things like MAGEARNA, URSHIFU, and even cinderace. and no one is complaining about these pokemon when they're probably even more difficult to switch in on AND can provide defensive utility. if anything, ban future sight, dont just scapegoat pheromosa because it happens to abuse it.
Just want to point out that Pheromosa is also one of the Pokemon that can fully benefit from the existence of Future Sight, and this is pretty much where the power of Pheromosa comes into play. Nearly all of the checks you have listed such as RH users, Marowak Alola, Kanto Birds, even Clefable doesn't really appreciate staying into one, and if you think you are making a good trade by staying in versus Pheromosa there is always a risk of Pheromosa using U-turn and this basically means Future Sight is likely to go up again, followed up by a Teleport. This is a dreadful momentum loss and not as easy to recover from. The problem was never individual Pokemon not being able to defensively check Pheromosa, but the offensive pressure generated by it.

On another note, I agree Magearna and Urshifu are worth looking into after this suspect concludes.
 
Last edited:

sasha

one eyed owl
is a Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
I don't really post on forums ever, but after getting reqs for the first time I thought I'd share my thoughts based on some previous conversations I've been seeing. The two most common sets I've seen on ladder are Choice Band and QD. I really don't think there's much skill to just clicking CC every turn and chunking 30%-40% to a resist or just a straight up kill everytime otherwise. In regards to QD sets, there were some games where I'd try to scout a mosa's potential choice band, only for it to get a boost on the switch and I simply just lost at that point. It may have been poor teambuilding on my end, but I still don't personally think any mon should be able to do that in any healthy manner. Having to safely scout sets against mosa is already a pain in itself but one correct prediction from the opposing side or tiny misplay from your end can cost you the game entirely. At first I really didn't see mosa as a problem but after watching certain series like Finch v SoulWind in stour, playing test games, and laddering myself after not really ever playing SSOU, its definitely a problem. If you don't have a clef or pex, you might as well click x (at least, thats how I felt). If mosa gets 1 QD against you without unaware, just click x. A lot of arguments I've been seeing are contingent of that 4MSS makes mosa counterable eventually after some scouting and Pex/Clef/insert wall here pivoting is easy to do, but I don't always want to be running these mons, I don't always want to have a rhelm pex on my team, it's boring. I will say that getting reqs almost put me into cardiac arrest because of how nerve-wracking it was just trying to finish up my last few games without choking, and every time I ran into mosa I just thought I lost or I got more stressed because I had to play the game to the tee, which, again, I find unhealthy that a single mon can impose that thought. Even when using band mosa throughout my own ladder run put me to sleep, if they didn't have a ghost type or misplayed a clef/pex for one turn, it was practically gg and it made me laugh, tbh. Either way, my post was more of a ramble if anything and hopefully wasn't weird, gl with reqs friends!
 

Gomi

yep
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
I don't like the tier right now, Mosa is a big part of it, and Its not really because of any one factor as much as its just oppressively awful to account for in every aspect of play, unless you bulk up with something like Pex+Clef, as people before me have said, which believe it or not, makes for a pretty boring or frustrating experience.

:ss/pheromosa: Clever title relating to bugs or something
I'll go over the builder aspect first and then the in battle aspect second because they both represent different problems I have with the roach.

Building around the Roach
This thing lacks good blanket checks. A lot of "switchins" are very set dependent at best or are Tapu Fini inconsistent U-turn bait at worst, the only switchins that genuinely cover multiple sets at once admirably without being worn down too quickly with U-turn+Hazards are Toxic/Pjab Pex and slightly Spdef invested Moltres. CB absolutely trucks Clefable, Tapu Fini, Aegislash, and Galarking depending on the moveset, and QD has the potential to push through even the better switchins, because they're all 20-30% at best away from being KO'd at +1. This by itself isn't really a big deal, until you compound that onto the fact that Mosa is an extremely difficult mon to offensively 1v1, so you're pretty much restricted to priority for taking it out, with the relatively awkward to fit and rare Azumarill being the only Priority user that actually switches into it, though Scarf Tapu fini kind of works as a backup check. Also worth mentioning that HDB can circumvent Priority to an extent but HDB also lacks a lot of immediate power so it's not really that big of a concern frankly, not to mention Rocky Helmet chip putting it in range anyways.

So when taking this all into account, it's ridicolous to Handle Mosa without just resorting to multiple defensive checks, because what little offensive counterplay that does exist banks entirely on something else getting them in via pivots or coming in on a KO, making them rather inconsistent, and what defensive counterplay exists usually cannot reliably handle both CB and QD, and if they can they tend to be very close to being overwhelmed, pretty much mandating a backup check regardless. This is frankly a ridiculous amount of care required to not lose to one Pokémon unless you're already running some generic Fat Balance, and I didn't even really touch on how the natures used can wildly change its offensive counterplay due to Beast Boost, though this applies to CB much more than QD.

Actually playing around the Roach
This Pokémon is ridiculous in battle, flat out. Going over CB first, the amount of support required for Mosa to push past most of its counterplay is rather minimal, especially when you consider that you don't have to beat just Pheromosa, because this mons a U-turn Bot. This forces you to both handle it and whatever random breaker it decides to bring in, making the amount of pressure it can apply to a team immense, since it poses such a huge threat by itself already. The consistency with this set VS. Offensive builds specifically is frankly unparalleled, it hits SO hard and forces switches so easily, on top of having a pretty solid amount of unpredictability with its Coverage options, between Throat Chop, Drill Run, Ice coverage, and Pjab. Like I mentioned previously, another unpredictable aspect of this set is that the nature (which you have no way of telling which is which until it attacks) determines how you go about taking it out to an extent, with teams that rely on measures like scarf Fini/Lele/Etc. largely finding themselves very overwhelmed when they're staring down a speed Beast Boost Mosa randomly.

We aren't done yet tho, because Mosa also has the potential to be QD, and no it is not as obvious to determine as people make it out to be. This set does indeed fit on Balance-y builds admirably, and can completely catch you off guard and annihilate you with some decent play. Most of the time, stopping this set from getting a QD off is a 50/50 and for more offensive builds, Tapu Fini takes any amount of chip and then they have to pray you miss Focus on their Steel, which is very engaging and not at all extremely frustrating, as one would imagine. The worst part is that Teleport has made bringing in shit like this easier than ever, so relying on just not letting these sort of frail, offensive mons in is practically impossible nowadays. This things just very easy to support for how devastating it can be in an instant, on top of being relatively difficult to predict, albeit far from impossible.

IDK lol
It's dumb, not a lot to add that other people better than me haven't already said 100x better. Whenever I decide to finish reqs this weekend, I'll definitely be voting Ban, this mon's offensive MU is ridiculous and it forces pretty derivative structures onto fat teams whilst enabling much of the tier as a fantastic fast pivot.

Oh yea and I forgot to mention Physdef Volc is technically the best all around counter to this thing but it has a lot of issues atm and generally doesn't slot cleanly onto teams without making concessions vs stuff like Urshi.

Edit bc i dunno lol: losing my 5th alt to an ada lando roll has made me realize reqs are grating and unfun so i take back saying i'll vote for my sanity :p
 
Last edited:
For me personally, laddering for reqs first time brought me some interesting perspective on Pheramosa. Initially, I really didn't think Pheramosa was an issue in teambuilding due to the facts of 4MSS and the "sample size" of checks (primarily the ClefPex core, Aegislash, Moltres to an extent) that we have in this metagame. On paper, it's an incredible threat that can be managed with decent revenge killing priority due to its frail defenses.

In actual battle however, its another field of strategy that simply doesn't exist with this mon. It doesn't hide the fact that 2 sets in particular, the Choice Band and Quiver Dance, really makes this mon nearly impossible to deal with once the snowballing gets going. I've seen Poison Jab being used more to deal with the supposed check in Clefable. Any unfavorable matchup, and it just simply U-Turns and deal more damage for its teammates to come in and finish the job. Pairing with Future Sight shenanigans, and your checks simply are going to have their backs to the wall even before facing this demon. Quiver Dance, to me personally, is the end-all move set that really pushes this mon over the edge. Just after one QD, looking at the top 10 mons in regards to usage + viability, they are taking massive hits and getting those +1s from potential KOs pretty much means GG unless you somehow get a KO on it due to priority. If your team doesn't have a decent defensive core to deal with it that guarantees some sort of safety net, you just got nuked.

While laddering, Defensive Volcarona was by far the most consistent answer for Pheramosa, but its place in the metagame is a bit wonky due to Heatran being around and seeing Tyranitar making a rise, as well as Landorus-T having Stone Edge.

All in all, I think its gonna be a ban for me. It wasn't as transparent at first, but I've come to realize that its a problematic mon once I actually had to face several of them.
 
I can't say much more than has already been said, but just for the sake of consistency through the generations, might I add that the only the only offensive threats that have been added this generation that weren't in previous generations are more users of priority moves (such as water shuriken), none of which will knock her out even at 88 HP after stealth rock? Offensively she is still nigh impossible to deal with unless you happen to have your pheremosa out first because she still outspeeds the entire tier (the relevant tier anyway) and defensively we only got aegislash and corviknight as additions to stop her, one of which doesn't have reliable recovery and the other of which has nothing to prevent her from maintaining momentum with u-turn. If she was banned last generation, I don't see why she shouldn't be released this generation. If anything, the addition of heavy duty boots makes her harder to wear down and teleport mechanics make her a lot easier to put in the field, mitigating two problems she had last generation. You can't even speed check her with your designated choice scarf user after she gets a kill (or even before she gets a kill depending on how slow your choice scarfer is, provided you have one in the first place).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top