Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 11 - Break The Ice

[Storm Zone]

Okay i get this question alot, which side im on pertaining to the kyurem ban, im not crazy crazy about the ban, but i am for it slightly, i do acknowledge however, kyurem can be checked with the right innovation in ou, but, look at the pokemon that it restricts, all of ou can be checked with the right kyurem set, ill bring up some points here:

1. freeze dry, so ice resists exist, but this move here freeze dry eliminates 95% of them, fun stuff like vaporeon/azu, can be obliterated by freeze dry, and even powerful stuff like keldeo/urshifu, etc

2. earth power, so again here like point #1, steels also resist ice, but there are little to no steels that can check kyurem's subsets, corv loses to sub dd, or sub freezedry pp stall, steels like melm heatran aegislash bisharp,copperajah even, can be checked by earth power.

so with these first two points here, it has coverage moves to cover both its resists.

3. the number of sets/versatility, with the right kyu set, everything can be checked, even shedinja and volcarona by rock slide, specs focusblast 2hkoes sciz and bliss, from the bulkiest checks to the most frail checks , if kyurem has a specific set, those checks are immediately threatened more than its threatened by them.

4. its bulk and ability to have immediate power alongside it, it has the most threatening typing in ou atm which is ice, and can abuse its specs set for immediate power, while tanking hits it should not take, like an unboosted dragondarts from dragapult, etc, bulk + immediate power + coverage restricts the way you build, which brings me to the 5th point.

5. its restriction in the builder, i have hundreds of teams with good ice resists, that are just destroyed by kyurem earthpower/focusblast, or kyurem freezedry, here to properly prepare for kyurem, you need either a bulky ice type on your team(that cant get pp stalled, and you have to be aggressive and hope it doesnt predict with a focus blast) , or a steel that resists ground, or can take 2 earth powers, otherwise its not a counter, its a check that needs to be in, if a team has none of the above, it immediately forces momentum moves like teleport into the offensive kyurem check, etc, im a versatile builder and yet still i find myself preparing a little more for kyurem than other pokemon due to these issues.

6. Think about what it opens up if its gone, many many innovative offensive defensive cores can be used without it like steels that dont resist ground, or frail ice types, teams with zapdos, galar moltres, and heatran or bisharp slowking galar lanturn/rotom-wash, very fun innovative offense squads which ive been doing lately like blacephalon + lucario + tornadus-incarnate etc.

these 6 points are the reason i am for the kyurem ban more than i am against it, so i would have to vote ban here due to my reasoning above.

but i get where omari is coming from, because i have points on why kyurem can stay for example, its a great breaker, i just have more arguments for the ban vote than for the no ban vote.

but yo Omari assume ur talking about Ox when u said they were against ur points, because im not, i can acknowledge that u got alotta valid points here, and so do i for your views on this suspect, i just found more valid arguments for the ban, that is why im slightly leaning towards the ban here. though it was close for me.

I found 6 reasons to ban it where i only found 4 reasons for it to stay(maybe 5). i listed the 6 reasons for the ban above here, now alot of you i notice have been saying its broken and to ban and are against omari here, but remember if ur validating a ban or disagreeing with him, remember to at least have some points to support ur decision.

I probably won't talk on this again here, but yo omari whats up bro if u wanna discuss the topic hmu on discord.
im out peace.

 

[ausma]

It is a fairly ridiculous claim that Omari P has not used more than one team this DLC, I have absolutely no clue where that came from

In general this thread has been really awful the last page or so; it is going in loops with fingers being pointed left and right so let’s please just keep the arguments respectful (on all parties) and impersonal or I’ll have to start handing out infractions. I really really don’t want to have to do that, so please take a deep breath and just back away if you’re getting heated. Talking about Kyurem is not worth getting frustrated and worn out.

I’ll do what I can to keep monitoring things; have a good weekend everyone and good luck with your reqs!

 

[Niko]

It's obvious that I didn't mean he ACTUALLY used one single team, but even if I don't ladder all day, I ladder a bit every week and I found him using that team dozens of time. It appeared to me that using so many Kyurem checks in the team he played the most could make his opinion on the Pokémon a bit biased, and since he was quite salty with the playerbase when he exposed the reasons for Kyurem not to get banned, I made him notice this fact in a joking way, after posting the calcs he asked for. Getting frustrated and flaming, and discussing another user's opinion, are not the same thing.

Then, if saying to someone that they used only one team is a good reason for another infraction (grudgingly! right?), people is right when they suggest me that because of my nickname I shouldn't post at all.

I'm out, have fun with this suspect.

 

[Gefährlicher Random]

Hey there, just gonna give a brief opinion on this matter. Personally i think Kyurem is really limiting teambuilding right now because of its various sets and limited amout of counters/checks. In game the mon is also strong but not to the point where id say that it definitly needs to be banned. Despite that i think id like to see it banned, although im not 100% sure about it, also because the ban might breathe some fresh air into the metagame.

thanks for reading, have a nice day

 

[LudwigFrog]

The question is, how many of these checks and counters are actually reliable, as opposed to "they check one set, but lose if Kyurem is running something that's not the set they check"? Because you cannot guess what the Kyurem set is from team preview; as was stated by Mimikyu Stardust, people have made Kyurem work with set Y on a team where it would be expected to use set X. And there's the fact that some of the moves Kyurem oft runs can freeze, which is no bueno when a freeze essentially means you're down a mon short of getting lucky. Anyway... Blissey is rather passive, and thus exploitable, Glowking can only heal by switching out (and also takes hazard damage if it's Assault Vest), Ferrothorn has no recovery... yeah. Also, Kyurem has partners, and they can support it (hint: all of those Pokemon I just mentioned hate being hit with Knock Off).



A mon with 130 base in both attacking stats and 95 speed "lacks speed and power"?? Are you kidding me? What the hell are you comparing it to?? If Kyurem really did lack speed and power, it wouldn't be capable of doing this:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-582952
I call this one "Kyurem wrecks Finchinator harder than Mega Man wrecks Dedede in Smash"


Looking at the 37 OU viable mons, only about 1/3 outspeed Kyurem. Unless you're running a team consisting entirely of mons that outspeed it (which I would consider overcentralizing), it'll wreck you. Also, most of those mons cannot afford to switch in, meaning you have to sac something to allow them to come in. Then you send in your revenge killer, but whoops, the opponent switched Kyurem out. Then what??

Compared to the other breakers, it's very weak if not running modest. And if it's modest then it's slow. Also BIHI simply just outplayed Finch in that scenario. Lol

 

[Walletinspector62]

Compared to the other breakers, it's very weak if not running modest. And if it's modest then it's slow. Also BIHI simply just outplayed Finch in that scenario. Lol

Yo aren’t you the guy who thinks min min is mid tier on Twitter?
I don’t think you understand that Kyurem doesn’t need to be fast to break. It can pretty comfortably run modest and really only misses out on outspeeding Rilla and Drill. Timid Kyurem is not weak at all either lol. Kyurem doesn’t even need to be all that strong cause most of the things it can break it breaks with PP stalling.

 

[LudwigFrog]

Yo aren’t you the guy who thinks min min is mid tier on Twitter?
I don’t think you understand that Kyurem doesn’t need to be fast to break. It can pretty comfortably run modest and really only misses out on outspeeding Rilla and Drill. Timid Kyurem is not weak at all either lol. Kyurem doesn’t even need to be all that strong cause most of the things it can break it breaks with PP stalling.

Nobody runs jolly Rillaboom. And that has nothing to do with pokemon. And compared to other attackers like Tapu Lele or Blacephalon, timid is weak. It not having speed or a setup move besides dragon dance spear also hinders it. It's not a case where if a Kyurem is +1 +1 it's not an automatic loss, as like for Weavile a +2 attack is scary for the opponent as Triple Axel is really strong, and it has priority, while already being fast.

And that's not necessarily the case. It lacks in universal counters sure, but its checks to certain sets are usually paired with a counter to another set. Blissey may be weak to Dragon Dance Dragapult for example, but it is often paired with things like Corviknight. The same argument can be used for Tapu Lele, as that has no universal checks, but team comp makes it easier to beat most if not all its sets.

 

[Finchinator]

I will be voting ban.

Kyurem's diverse set mix allows for it to make the most of its practical attacking movepool and superb natural bulk. These characteristics make Kyurem both very accessible within games and very threatening when entering the battlefield. Typically the barrier of entry for top-tier breakers is higher due to being more fragile or quite slow whereas many bulkier attackers lack the sheer offensive presence to break teams, but Kyurem is capable of putting it all together.

Given this and the limited pool of checks and the hardly existent pool of universal counters, I find it’s presence detrimental to teambuilding and ultimately banworthy.

If people want me to expand and go through each set and what I think can check/counter it, I will gladly expand this weekend, lmk

 

[Smashburn]

Hello everyone! Enjoying reading the lovely conversations on this forum, and I'm looking forward to the end of this suspect test in just over a week. Unfortunately I don't believe I will be meeting reqs, but I did want to put my two cents in.

​

The Kyurem suspect test was a discussion I had peered into from the Metagame Discussion Forum before the official suspect test was conducted, and frankly I've been surprised at how heated the conversation has been. On paper (in my eyes at least) Kyurem isn't balanced for the current meta conditions, and that is a sentiment which is shared by most of the community. It's a very powerful tool that has its arguable qualities, and both sides of the BAN and DO NOT BAN sentiments are an extension of that. Storm Zone summed up its qualities for ban potential best, being its coverage, set versatility, and bulk that restrict teambuilding. A lesser argument against a ban has been made by the minority, referencing Kyurem's relative balances for its banworthy qualities when comparing it to other threats and checks. Understandably, most people disagree with this argument as Kyurem is provably still a big issue even when considering these factors.

In my opinion both sides draw reasonable conclusions (some more than others), however, most of the community shares a pro BAN sentiment including myself. With the deadline for the suspect test upcoming soon, I believe it is very likely that Kyurem will not remain in the SwSh OU tier.

Additionally, there isn't any need to personally attack each other over the opinion of whether a bunch of pixels is worthy of a ban or not. It's unhealthy and degrades the character of the community, especially yourself. This will all blow over very shortly regardless of the outcome and the tier will progress. Who knows, we might get some cool stuff out of the upcoming meta if Kyurem is gone. Just remember to be respectful, that's the biggest thing.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

Hello everyone! Enjoying reading the lovely conversations on this forum, and I'm looking forward to the end of this suspect test in just over a week. Unfortunately I don't believe I will be meeting reqs, but I did want to put my two cents in.

​

The Kyurem suspect test was a discussion I had peered into from the Metagame Discussion Forum before the official suspect test was conducted, and frankly I've been surprised at how heated the conversation has been. On paper (in my eyes at least) Kyurem isn't balanced for the current meta conditions, and that is a sentiment which is shared by most of the community. It's a very powerful tool that has its arguable qualities, and both sides of the BAN and DO NOT BAN sentiments are an extension of that. Storm Zone summed up its qualities for ban potential best, being its coverage, set versatility, and bulk that restrict teambuilding. A lesser argument against a ban has been made by the minority, referencing Kyurem's relative balances for its banworthy qualities when comparing it to other threats and checks. Understandably, most people disagree with this argument as Kyurem is provably still a big issue even when considering these factors.

In my opinion both sides draw reasonable conclusions (some more than others), however, most of the community shares a pro BAN sentiment including myself. With the deadline for the suspect test upcoming soon, I believe it is very likely that Kyurem will not remain in the SwSh OU tier.

Additionally, there isn't any need to personally attack each other over the opinion of whether a bunch of pixels is worthy of a ban or not. It's unhealthy and degrades the character of the community, especially yourself. This will all blow over very shortly regardless of the outcome and the tier will progress. Who knows, we might get some cool stuff out of the upcoming meta if Kyurem is gone. Just remember to be respectful, that's the biggest thing.

To add onto this, I feel like the reason the community holds a ban sentiment is because in basically every case since gen 5 afaik, the pokemon that's tested just never has any positives for the tier if it stays. I don't think I am alone on this one, not trying to argue this is a reason that kyurem shouldn't stay because "theory-meta's" aren't valid arguments, but I am saying this is usually the reason why bans as well as retest are almost always the case. In fact I don't remember more than 1 pokemon in ou that wasn't retested and banned, if it wasn't banned on the first test. The headache of a lot of these tested pokemon isn't worth it (this is objectively true sometimes), even if there are "options" to deal with those pokemon. As much as people like to think they don't imagine how a meta would be better without X pokemon compared to current, this line of thinking 100% influences everyone's vote. This is not to say that a ban bias is a bad thing, am just explaining what I think as to why the ou community in particular is very biased towards bans since gen 6-8 afaik. Could aslo be council getting better at the game, and learning more compared to lets say 6 years ago also helps with accuracy for brokenness within a suspect test.

 

[agslash23]

I'm still in the process of getting suspect reqs, but if I do I'll vote Ban

When the suspect test started, I wasn't in favour of banning Kyurem coz I used to believe that even though it is a powerful wallbreaker, it is not more difficult to handle than something like Tapu Lele who has no checks (bar Shedinja and Jirachi) or Urshifu-R (for whom we need a water and fighting resist in every team out there). I knew that SubRoost was good at PP stalling Specs/NMI checks like Blissey, but even then it never felt overbearing.

However, I tried out the SubDD set and after playing a few matches I realized that DD Kyurem can plow through teams by PP stalling super effective moves vs it, setting up on anything that doesn't hurt it too much, and then proceeding to sweep. I have this below replay that shows how DD Kyurem can sweep past stuff even after getting BURNED !!

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1466383284

If this ain't banworthy, I don't know what is

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I'm still in the process of getting suspect reqs, but if I do I'll vote Ban

When the suspect test started, I wasn't in favour of banning Kyurem coz I used to believe that even though it is a powerful wallbreaker, it is not more difficult to handle than something like Tapu Lele who has no checks (bar Shedinja and Jirachi) or Urshifu-R (for whom we need a water and fighting resist in every team out there). I knew that SubRoost was good at PP stalling Specs/NMI checks like Blissey, but even then it never felt overbearing.

However, I tried out the SubDD set and after playing a few matches I realized that DD Kyurem can plow through teams by PP stalling super effective moves vs it, setting up on anything that doesn't hurt it too much, and then proceeding to sweep. I have this below replay that shows how DD Kyurem can sweep past stuff even after getting BURNED !!

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1466383284

If this ain't banworthy, I don't know what is

this is a weak argument and goes to what I said earlier. that team they had was MASSIVELY passive and then got set up on by a dragon dancer. that is not a sign of it being broken that is just an archetype. 2 - they actually had multiple chances to kill that kyu but for some reason, they did not. But anyway I would actually like to hear Finchinator out but also why specifically is Kyu at the top of the list

 

[Nish the Great]

Ok lets get on to the point
kyurem is good not broken , its really good against rain or balanced teams but the counters to it are there melmetal , scizor , dragapult and many more sure freeze dry is great but its not op
so Do Not Ban

melmetal: takes so much from earth power, even av is just a 1 time check.
dragapult: no???

 

[Feelingmo]

Ok lets get on to the point
kyurem is good not broken , its really good against rain or balanced teams but the counters to it are there melmetal , scizor , dragapult and many more sure freeze dry is great but its not op
so Do Not Ban

How is dragapult a counter? It gets ohkod by literally every ice mive.
And melm gets 2hkod by earth power gl getting it in.

 

[zReptar]

Ok lets get on to the point
kyurem is good not broken , its really good against rain or balanced teams but the counters to it are there melmetal , scizor , dragapult and many more sure freeze dry is great but its not op
so Do Not Ban

lmfao dude you gotta have more info than just that
so plz explain further

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

Ok lets get on to the point
kyurem is good not broken , its really good against rain or balanced teams but the counters to it are there melmetal , scizor , dragapult and many more sure freeze dry is great but its not op
so Do Not Ban

Scizor is the only one of the three you mentioned that actually counters it; Melmetal is a shaky check, as it takes a lot of damage from Earth Power (and this isn't getting into the fact that as it has no recovery, it's easily chipped), and Dragapult can't switch in.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Ok lets get on to the point
kyurem is good not broken , its really good against rain or balanced teams but the counters to it are there melmetal , scizor , dragapult and many more sure freeze dry is great but its not op
so Do Not Ban

Lets start with the first point..... Its really good against rain and balance teams but is that all that is? Have you conisdered scarf which does well against offense or sub dd or dd 3 attacks which do well against more bulky teams that rely on walling it to kill it. What if you predict wrong and you lose your dragapult to the scarf kyurem assuming it was specs. I mean it does not have 3 counters in scizor, melmetal, and volcarona to all of its sets... I mean scizor gets torn apart by losing its boots and switching into hazards and giving free switch ins to heatran, skarmory, volcarona, victini and more by being forced to constantly roost so its shaky to. Melmetal has no recovery and gets fucked by earth power or just repeated ice beams in general or DIB into helmet mons such as pex, corv, skarm, and tang so yeah its rough esp if ur going to DIB into heatran to... and volcarona is not that common nor is it a pokemon you can slap on every team

 

[Smashburn]

Ok lets get on to the point
kyurem is good not broken , its really good against rain or balanced teams but the counters to it are there melmetal , scizor , dragapult and many more sure freeze dry is great but its not op
so Do Not Ban

If you were here for reaction points then you won lol

Along the lines of this not being a one-liner you just made it over, but depth wise this is very lacking and contributes nothing other than being an opinion piece. Claims of it being good against obvious archetypes are true, but outside of that your argument is barely cohesive. Put simply, Melmetal still folds to Kyurem's coverage while being a counter to its Physical sets, where SpD Scizor is the only reliable method of dealing with all of Kyurem's variants while STILL fearing its coverage. Dragapult is only a reliable offensive option against SubRoost and Specs, where SubDD threatens it and Scarf checks it. This isn't even going over Blissey, Chansey, Clefable, Glowking, Corviknight, or Volcarona which are their own situations.

 

[remetagross]

I'm quite far from metting the reqs, but I've been using Scarf Kyurem to great success. It catches a lot of people off guard. Unfortunately, I'm too low ladder to be facing a lot of Kyurem myself - I've been keeping in store a bulky Volcarona + misty terrain from Tapu fini to verify if, yes or no, it is a catch-all safeguard against all Kyurems.

 

[Verdas]

As much as I love Kyurem, I'm indifferent to whether or not it gets the boot, especially since I haven't been super closely following SwSh Ou. Instead I want to talk about potential "winners and losers" of the Kyurem ban that may be upon us.


Winners

Dragonite went from a unique presence and Cinderace check to amazing once people started exploring it more as a unique sweeper with colorful coverage and the ability to check the then abundant Rillaboom and Urshifu-R to mediocre again once Kyurem and Weavile usage exploded. With Kyurem out of the picture it seems a lot easier to check Weavile since you don't need multiple ice checks, and a lot of the double steel cores that annoy it may die down without Kyurem.

There's definitely a correlation between Kyurem being so good and other dragons being forgotten. Hydreigon has a lot going for it, but unfortunately so much of what it does is outclassed by Kyurem. Wanted to use Specs? Specs Kyurem is absolutely devastating, even if its not the hottest set on the block right now. Wanted to use LO 3 Attacks? Never-Melt-Ice Kyurem. It has such an akward place in the meta due to Kyurems presence, and because it won't see use over Kyurem on most teams, its limitations that come with its defensive typing hurt that much more for it.

Kyurem might be the one thing stopping Tornadus from reaching the S ranks. AV becomes a significantly better blanket check to special attackers without mister ice demon dragon, and Defogging is akward since you clear hazards for the opponents Kyurem. It is a solid partner to your own Kyurem, but Tornadus would probably become ever so slightly more productive without Kyurem in the picture, and that little push can definitely propel it to stardom.

Losers (Only putting 1 for now because I'm suddenly hella lazy)

This things entire job in the current meta is checking Kyurem. If Kyurem is banned it can go back to being the special sponge that doesn't actually deal with special attackers!

Continuation. Not gonna write any more explanations but Scizor is in the losers section and Pelipper and Barraskewda are definite winners.

Also, not gonna be trying to get reqs but if i were I'd probably vote ban. There are just too many sets, all of them having different counters, and the mon is just way too customizable and can do whatever you need for a team. As Mimikyu Stardust's post proves, you cannot tell what set it is at team preview, and Kyurem will often get 1 or more kills before you get enough info to check it. Specs sets are manageable since they have to predict to score kills and have no recovery, but NMI gets most of the same kills and can actually shake damage off. The sub sets are even more unhealthy, since they dont have to predict at all and are hard as hell to force out. In both teambuilding and playing you become so much more limited in options since you always have to account for Kyurem. So yeah, ban that shit. Also, you know im trying to be objective when this thing is half my builder :).

 

[udongirl]

I played OU and finally I reached 1810 so I think Im not foolish. I can't understand why all pre-ban players expect kyurem users have god's eyes.
When I use kyurem‚ its not so easy to use read move‚ especially focus blast. Due to 2x weakness to stealth rock‚ there are many risks to read for specs kyurem. Kyurem has good bulk but because of the weakness to chip kyurem becomes very frail If I misread. That means mons like melmetal ant tyranitar work enough for kyurem.
What about dd and stall set? Its very easy to deal with if you have a counter. Both set can't do immediately. They can eat defensive counter like blissey but themselves aren't broken.

 

[Temperance_PS]

I played OU and finally I reached 1810 so I think Im not foolish. I can't understand why all pre-ban players expect kyurem users have god's eyes.
When I use kyurem‚ its not so easy to use read move‚ especially focus blast. Due to 2x weakness to stealth rock‚ there are many risks to read for specs kyurem. Kyurem has good bulk but because of the weakness to chip kyurem becomes very frail If I misread. That means mons like melmetal ant tyranitar work enough for kyurem.
What about dd and stall set? Its very easy to deal with if you have a counter. Both set can't do immediately. They can eat defensive counter like blissey but themselves aren't broken.

Popping back on to talk about this.

Kyurem requires well-thought out prediction to hit the right Pokemon with Choice Specs, yes. Tyranitar would barely take around 20 from Ice Beam, and a partner Slowking-Galar can take two Ice Beams as well, meaning you have to make careful plays in order to do well against balanced teams. However, Kyurem does not only use Choice Specs as its special set, as there are sets such as Choice Scarf, SubRoost Offensive, Never-Melt Ice, etc. Every single special set usually carries Freeze Dry and Earth Power, bar the occasional swap of Earth Power for Draco Meteor on choiced sets. Never-Melt Ice, in specific, chips answers down more reliably with Ice Beam and Earth Power, making dealing with it much harder if you don't have the underwhelming Blissey or otherwise pathetic Scizor.

"That means mons like melmetal ant tyranitar work enough for kyurem."

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 416-492 (102.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Oops. I predicted wrong once, and suddenly Ice Beam becomes spammable tenfold.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 204-240 (46 - 54.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

At the very least, it's the same situation above, but with one extra needed prediction.

Kyurem teams, especially ones with Choice Specs, always use a good Defog Pokemon in order to make sure it doesn't kill itself when attempting prediction. And it's unhealthy that even when the opponent predicts my Ice Beam and goes into Tyranitar...

The opposing Tyranitar was frozen solid!

This can happen.

Now, freeze is not an argument in its own right. If freeze was as broken as people make it out to be, Ice Punch Weavile or Tri Attack Magnezone would be talked about in return. Freeze is not something to rely on. Ever. You don't usually click Ice Beam in hopes of freezing, you click it to deal damage.

However, freeze is what makes Kyurem so infuriating, because even if you do play perfect, which is a task on its own against Kyurem, you still can lose your only reliable answer to an Ice Beam/Freeze-Dry freeze, which is completely out of your own power. Pokemon like Blissey don't usually care about the freezes, but Blissey itself is only truly useful against Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, and Never-Melt Ice, not even mentioning the fact Choice Specs blows the blob back with Focus Blast.

"What about dd and stall set? Its very easy to deal with if you have a counter. Both set can't do immediately. They can eat defensive counter like blissey but themselves aren't broken."

Oh, no, Blissey isn't the only thing it demolishes. In fact, Sub Dragon Dance has almost completely different answers than Choice Specs, which in itself is a nightmare since if you don't carry around a Scizor, you're nearly always at risk of it PP stalling your answer with SubRoost. Pokemon like Ferrothorn are consistently annoyed by it, as the Kyurem player, assuming that they made a proper EV spread, can sit on Ferrothorn until it runs out of Body Presses, Iron Heads, and whatever else you can think of. It can even beat Urshifu, thanks to being able to Substitute after every single Close Combat, and running the PP down to zero after a mere four Subs.

Multiple replays of Dragon Dance Kyurem can be found in this thread, and I'd advise looking at them. SubRoostDD Kyurem can power through things like ColburPress Slowbro, Flash Cannon Heatran, and more with only Icicle Spear as an offensive move. Not only can players have trouble knowing the opposing Kyurem's set immediately in team preview, they have to carry either multiple Pokemon to deal with the various sets... or Scizor. And let me just say, I won't be using Scizor in OU again for a long while if Kyurem gets the boot.

 

[udongirl]

Popping back on to talk about this.

Kyurem requires well-thought out prediction to hit the right Pokemon with Choice Specs, yes. Tyranitar would barely take around 20 from Ice Beam, and a partner Slowking-Galar can take two Ice Beams as well, meaning you have to make careful plays in order to do well against balanced teams. However, Kyurem does not only use Choice Specs as its special set, as there are sets such as Choice Scarf, SubRoost Offensive, Never-Melt Ice, etc. Every single special set usually carries Freeze Dry and Earth Power, bar the occasional swap of Earth Power for Draco Meteor on choiced sets. Never-Melt Ice, in specific, chips answers down more reliably with Ice Beam and Earth Power, making dealing with it much harder if you don't have the underwhelming Blissey or otherwise pathetic Scizor.

"That means mons like melmetal ant tyranitar work enough for kyurem."

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 416-492 (102.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Oops. I predicted wrong once, and suddenly Ice Beam becomes spammable tenfold.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 204-240 (46 - 54.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

At the very least, it's the same situation above, but with one extra needed prediction.

Kyurem teams, especially ones with Choice Specs, always use a good Defog Pokemon in order to make sure it doesn't kill itself when attempting prediction. And it's unhealthy that even when the opponent predicts my Ice Beam and goes into Tyranitar...

The opposing Tyranitar was frozen solid!

This can happen.

Now, freeze is not an argument in its own right. If freeze was as broken as people make it out to be, Ice Punch Weavile or Tri Attack Magnezone would be talked about in return. Freeze is not something to rely on. Ever. You don't usually click Ice Beam in hopes of freezing, you click it to deal damage.

However, freeze is what makes Kyurem so infuriating, because even if you do play perfect, which is a task on its own against Kyurem, you still can lose your only reliable answer to an Ice Beam/Freeze-Dry freeze, which is completely out of your own power. Pokemon like Blissey don't usually care about the freezes, but Blissey itself is only truly useful against Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, and Never-Melt Ice, not even mentioning the fact Choice Specs blows the blob back with Focus Blast.

"What about dd and stall set? Its very easy to deal with if you have a counter. Both set can't do immediately. They can eat defensive counter like blissey but themselves aren't broken."

Oh, no, Blissey isn't the only thing it demolishes. In fact, Sub Dragon Dance has almost completely different answers than Choice Specs, which in itself is a nightmare since if you don't carry around a Scizor, you're nearly always at risk of it PP stalling your answer with SubRoost. Pokemon like Ferrothorn are consistently annoyed by it, as the Kyurem player, assuming that they made a proper EV spread, can sit on Ferrothorn until it runs out of Body Presses, Iron Heads, and whatever else you can think of. It can even beat Urshifu, thanks to being able to Substitute after every single Close Combat, and running the PP down to zero after a mere four Subs.

Multiple replays of Dragon Dance Kyurem can be found in this thread, and I'd advise looking at them. SubRoostDD Kyurem can power through things like ColburPress Slowbro, Flash Cannon Heatran, and more with only Icicle Spear as an offensive move. Not only can players have trouble knowing the opposing Kyurem's set immediately in team preview, they have to carry either multiple Pokemon to deal with the various sets... or Scizor. And let me just say, I won't be using Scizor in OU again for a long while if Kyurem gets the boot.

I said ''enough''. Pokemon except blissey can't check perfectly specs kyurem. But it's not a problem because there are so many mons like that (No one use it if a wallbreaker is stopped even though predict perfectly). And focus blast misses so it's hard to choose (it is not a joke. We should not use 70 acc move as much as possible).
Next, beat urshifu? Urshifu is just a revenge killer so there's no surprise. You should use checks which can hit over 50 percent and has enough PP.

 

[Smashburn]

I said ''enough''. Pokemon except blissey can't check perfectly specs kyurem. But it's not a problem because there are so many mons like that (No one use it if a wallbreaker is stopped even though predict perfectly). And focus blast misses so it's hard to choose (it is not a joke. We should not use 70 acc move as much as possible).
Next, beat urshifu? Urshifu is just a revenge killer so there's no surprise. You should use checks which can hit over 50 percent and has enough PP.

That's a bit ridiculous, it's been shown that even Blissey can't wall it perfectly and Kyurem still has ways of breaking it. SpD Blissey isn't a proper answer to it since it limits Blissey's utility, which is the only way to "perfectly check specs Kyurem" barring a crit. Additionally, this IS a problem, regardless of the breakers that are meant to stop it ,which as you are saying, has to be predicted PERFECTLY. It has been proven that Kyurem's coverage, set variety, and bulk pose a threat to stuff that's just supposed to wall it let alone check it. The fact that there isn't a proper universal counter to Kyurem is overcentralizing for something such as itself.

Your argument is difficult to read or agree with since its basis is plainly ignoring the fact that Kyurem's coverage, set versatility, and bulk blatantly threaten teambuilding. The 6v6 scenario is far more important than 1v1, which your argument (actively or not) highlights. This is a false analysis of it collectively as it is not considering the impact of Kyurem across the tier, rather, to its individual checks.

 

[ProkemonGaming2]

I am not a very experienced player or anything like that but kyurem is very unhealthy in the meta and should get banned because the variety it packs that drastically change it's counters and it's Coalosoal bulk making it hard to check. It has set up in substitute and dragon dance with reliable recovery in roost it also has 660 BST, that's by far the highest in OU (except regigigas but regigigas sucks). The freeze chance of freese dry and ice beam make kyurem extra nasty and as stated If it freezes something it's lights out for the poor person. Kyurem's dragon dance sets also start a snow ball pretty quick. Its not immovable tho, blissey and scizor are good checks. My final conclusion is I vote to ban kyurem.