I strongly suggest pro ban users with min reqs to post more replays of how Zamazenta-C is broken. Theorymonning and posting its stats is basically spam at this point.
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Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 10 - Royals
- Thread starter TPP
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this narrative of the pro-ban side needing to post replays to back up arguments is getting a bit ridiculous. Considering I can say the exact same thing to everybody whose pro-unban, why does one side of the argument need to back up every single bit of information they say with replays while the other can just make any claim they want. I have seen nobody in recent pages who has made a worth while read of a post theorymon to the extreme outside of some ideas on how the meta might settle in a couple months, which is totally reasonable to theorymon about considering we dont have a time machine. Also im not sure where this stat thing came from considering most of the posts from again, people whos posts haven't been nonsense, barely touch on its stat spread and we basically all know what it does at this point. Unless somebody makes some crazy claim with zama, I don't think replays are necessary to make a coherent post. Dismissing pro-ban arguments just because there isn't replays is ignorant. At least these people are making posts and discussing Zamazenta rather than posting a wall of calcs and calling it a day. Sure replays are cool to back up your argument and yeah I'll encourage them if people feel theyre important, but calling out the opposition to post replays or theyre wrong is so silly. how about yall post replays to support every single point youre going to make on why you feel Zamazenta should be in the tier. replays can be used as a tool for both sides to support their arguments, however, neither side is obligated to post replays just so they can discuss with other people if zamazenta is/isnt unhealthy for the tier.
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It's because Zamazenta-C is being suspect tested to be unbanned, not the opposite. The burden of proof is on pro-ban users to convince why that shouldn't happen. All I see is endless spam about how it's a legendary and how it has super high stats, which is incomparably worse than even the worst pro-unban argument.
nobody is doing that though, if anything it's the pro unban people who are just spamming calcs and ignoring what effect it would have on the meta. by the way I am pro unban but I dislike it when the other opinion is portrayed so dishonestly
The best way to contribute to suspect tests and current metagames in general is by simply playing actual games and testing out zama and how it can either benefit or devalue the tier. It's important to understand that while theorymonning might have some value to base certain opinion, quality and informative battles have much significance in not only seeing short-term or long-term impacts zama may have, but also perhaps opinions can changed or remain the same based on practicality.
Not saying you're forced to do the suspect test just to have a say in this, but at least hop on the server and play games and see how the matchups vs zama can affect the metagame and where it stands rn.
Not saying you're forced to do the suspect test just to have a say in this, but at least hop on the server and play games and see how the matchups vs zama can affect the metagame and where it stands rn.
Um what? The argument you describe hasn’t been mentioned by any competent pro ban posts on this thread, and even the stupider ones say nothing about zamazenta being a legendary therefore it’s broken (we have several legendaries usable in the tier already: heatran, the legendary goats, the Regis, and all of the tapus, not to mention all of the various mythicals scattered among smogon’s tiers). If anything, the typical pro unban side has a worse argument, as there is little to no consideration of zama’s matchup vs offensive builds, and instead focus entirely on zamazenta’s matchup vs 2 specific archetypes (balance and stall) in which the dog has it rough. I feel it’s important to consider both sides of an argument when creating a post rather than just focusing on the part you want to focus on, not just on smogon but on threads like this in general, regardless of your opinion.
It's just speculation, I'd rather not go full in detail, since it'd just derail the thread, but basically, it's hard to slot in and it's hard to make effective use of. At best, it'd be A-/B+, at worse, B-, which is the range where a lot of UU Mons tend to show up.
I also like how you comment solely on that one small comment rather than the rest of the post to strengthen your side.
Are you absolutely sure this isn't a low ladder anecdote? I find it very hard to believe that this happened even at 1500-1600 range
Also, the very common Barraskewda has a pretty good chance to outspeed and 2HKO Zama, while neither it nor Jolteon manage to take a hit other than BBash
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. +2 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 202-238 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Whereas Jolteon
252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Thunder vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 174-205 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Jolteon has one and only one advantage over Barra which is the fact that it has a better defensive matchup against Zama, as it is immune to Wild Charge and takes marginally less damage from BBash
As niche as Thunderus-T is, it does a far better job staving off Zama
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 144-170 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 120-142 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus-Therian: 216-255 (72.2 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
CC also drops Spdef, making Thunderus-T's hits sting more since it is slower than Zama
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. -1 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 308-364 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 206-244 (60.4 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And that's it you want to use Thunderus-T. Zapdos does great against Zama and it is a staple of Rain. Ferro sits on the defensive sets since they prefer BBash as CC causes Zama to be weaker defensively
Let's not forget, Torn-T
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 170-200 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 338-398 (99.1 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
All of this without CC's defense drops or Wild Charge's recoil
What about Banded Urshifu?
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 322-380 (94.4 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 214-254 (62.7 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. +2 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned in Rain on a critical hit: 306-363 (89.7 - 106.4%) -- approx. 31.3% chance to OHKO
This is looking good for Urshifu and it isn't even a defensive answer.
I agree, this shouldn't be strictly relegated to just one side, both pro-ban and pro-unban and even the philosophical ones here should use replays to strengthen their point. Theorymonning can go on and on, but battling is how it will be proven if it's good or not
I am guilty of this myself and I will post replays about Zama and I urge pro-unban to start posting replays as well.
I'd be more inclined to believe the pro-ban side if their posts had more replays rather than posts like "I fail to see how that's my problem" or "This single line of yours makes your post invalid"
Hello, everyone! I hope you've all been well lately. I've been abstaining from posting since I chose, for once, to get reqs, since I felt this was a really important suspect test that could go either way.
That being said, I've been playing the Zamazenta-C meta quite a bit since the eclipse of the suspect test, and with it, I've gained quite a lot of experience both using and playing with Zamazenta. I've been laddering and managed to get my reqs using two different Zamazenta-C teams; one HO, and one balanced offense. They're both pretty solid teams, so I'll be happy to share them.
Dual Terrain Balanced Offense
This team is probably one of my favorite builds I've made in the whole of SS OU, and it's simply because of how badass Nature Power Heatran is with terrain support (seriously, try it if you haven't already), allowing for my offensive core of Zama/Rilla/Koko to rip more effective holes without being forced to pivot constantly. Koko and Rilla also pivot against things like Ferrothorn and Corviknight, which are ripe for the picking on a Heatran pivot, letting it enforce mad powerful progress with a nuclear Magma Storm --> Nature Power, which can smash bulky waters and surprise nuke stuff like Swampert and Gastrodon which can be annoying to play around even with Rillaboom. This team is incredibly reliable and it has been an absolute godsend for my escapades in the higher ladder while getting reqs. Just watch out for Tapu Lele and Kyurem; Lele moreso. Heatran can force 50/50s between Lele's STABs and Focus Blast but that's not anything to rely on.
Zamazenta-C shines on this team as both an emergency damage sponge against physical wallbreakers if Garchomp/Mandibuzz have sustained too much damage, as well as a speedy win condition that capitalizes well on Heatran's ability to trap and remove literally all of its checks (except for Tankchomp). It benefits from both terrains as well, boasting a boosted Wild Charge or passive recovery/an Earthquake neutrality depending on the situation.
Screens Grass Spam HO
While this team isn't really super consistent, it's a pretty neat low ladder buster that aims to overload and blow down conventional Zamazenta and Volcarona checks. Zamazenta-C can admittedly be swapped out for Hawlucha and Rillaboom can don its much more fearsome Life Orb variant, but Zamazenta definitely pairs well on Grass spam since it both benefits from the terrain Rillaboom sets, and from their ability to overload Zamazenta's checks. The make of this team can definitely be solidly adapted into a more standard balanced offense or VoltTurn that utilizes Grass spam to a similar effect, but this works pretty well too. Grimmsnarl, I've found, is also a really neat screens setter since it provides a check to what is considered to be the quintessential Screens offense destroyer: Dragapult. This isn't the place to gush about Grimmsnarl, though, so I'll save that for elsewhere; I just felt it was important to contextualize in case someone wanted to try using the team.
Grimmsnarl's spread outspeeds standard Mandibuzz, and puts the rest into bulk to take on Dragapult more reliably. Volcarona's spread is geared to take at least 2 of any one of Zamazenta's moves, putting the rest into Special Attack to optimize its ability to take down Landorus-T before it can retaliate.
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So, let me get to the point: what do I think of Zamazenta-C now that I've had ample time to play both with and against it?
This is a question that I admittedly have been pondering greatly about as I've been laddering and watching discussion in this thread unfold. I've found that both sides have really strong cases for and against it, and actually gauging whether or not Zamazenta-C should be unbanned is difficult without having actually played with and against it for yourself. If you haven't played on the suspect ladder thus far, I highly suggest you do so before you align yourself in one party or another.
In short, I still roughly feel the same as I did when I played with it on April Fool's Day, so I'll try to avoid repeating tired points that have already been made by both myself and others. If you'd like to see my thoughts on Zamazenta-C itself, feel free to give my above post a read.
Instead, I'd like to bring up a major new thing I've observed about it, as well as try to address some of the common arguments made against it. I believe Zamazenta-C's most banworthy traits are less what it alone can do, and rather how effective it can be with team support. Zamazenta-C alone, unsurprisingly, is held back by the very things we expected it to be held back by, and it has more than enough means of natural counterplay on offenses, balances, and stalls alike. I won't waste your time listing off the checks when they've already been mentioned more than enough times already. However, Zamazenta-C is absolutely superb when given the aid of powerful trappers (Heatran primarily), Futureport, and terrain support, which can very easily be provided for it. The main difference that Zamazenta-C has in comparison to other recipients comes in the form of its insane natural bulk and speed tier, which let it do its job much easier and in some cases, considerably better.
Future Sight
In the case of Future Sight, this is prominent as Zamazenta-C pairs phenomenally with Slowking, which is otherwise terrified of offensive Dark-types, whereas Zamazenta-C has no qualms pivoting into them and enforcing progress with a Future Sight active since it can afford to swap in a couple of times and capitalize on the Future Sight checkmate, especially into things like Bisharp and Weavile which can take advantage of the strategy otherwise with their nuclear Knock Offs and Future Sight immunity. This was a point brought up a few times before, and I believe the specialized Future Sight synergy is probably the best argument against Zamazenta-C since Zamazenta-C specifically is the only Future Sight abuser capable of consistently taking advantage of Dark-types that can otherwise keep the strategy in check. However, the reason I don't concede to this argument entirely is mostly because I feel the strength of Futureport is more its own issue than anything else, and Zamazenta-C is just another one of the many offensive Pokemon that capitalize on the strategy, with its own natural slew of benefits. It's incredibly difficult to reliably play around Slowtwin-styled Futureport strategies, even with a Dark-type, simply because you're put into a major positional disadvantage that enables the opponent to make progress with little to no effort necessary. Even if you position your Dark-type in to soak the Future Sight, you're expected to stay in if you don't want to force key chip damage, and the opponent can get up a hazard they couldn't get up otherwise, or force a Knock Off, or even spread debilitating status with you forced to be in a suboptimal position just to not let a key wall take dangerous chip damage. While without the Slowtwin package this has much more reasonable counterplay, their ability to freely pivot and heal simultaneously lets them facilitate Future Sight checkmates off with little to no prior positional advantage necessary. Zamazenta-C 100% capitalizes incredibly well on this, and I'm not here to argue the contrary, but the reason this strategy is so powerful right now is not because of Zamazenta-C; I feel that this is a self-contained issue that won't be resolved by keeping Zamazenta-C locked away.
Other Strategies
I've found in my time getting suspect requisites that Heatran is one of the best offensive Zamazenta partners that the tier can provide. Heatran is one of the most polarizing Pokemon in the tier thanks to its access to Magma Storm to trap and eliminate a slew of Pokemon, while being able to put down major pressure against Steel-type Pokemon. Heatran's access to Taunt, Earth Power, and the chad Nature Power let it trap a wide amount of threats, including nearly all of Zamazenta-C's defensive checks, which can enable it with shockingly potent results. However, I would like to contend that even with this phenomenal pairing, Heatran and terrain based strategies still require skill to allow Zamazenta to work to its fullest effect.
Let me show you this replay I had while on the suspect ladder; in fact, one of my last few games. This matchup was a pretty tricky one, as it forced me to figure out a way to capitalize on Heatran's trapping and wallbreaking abilities to reliably open up Zamazenta for an endgame. There were three incredibly troublesome walls in the form of Hippowdon, Skarmory, and Toxapex, but Heatran pressured all of them superbly. The main issue here was how this player came prepared with a Magma Storm switch-in, and how I lacked one of my own. On Turn 5, I clicked Taunt because I wanted to meet a middle ground between keeping Heatran and any other potential switch-in at bay; I wasn't liberally able to enforce progress easily, and had to get a bit creative with my positioning in order to get Heatran, Skarmory, and Toxapex all whittled down. Zamazenta won the endgame, but I couldn't just click a few buttons to claim my victory on the spot, because several conditions that required some thinking to fulfill had to be in place. In fact, I didn't even click Magma Storm once.
This positional, strategic planning applies in even greater depth with terrain based strategies. Although Tapu Koko and Rillaboom's terrain is incredible support for it, it's imperative to consider that the terrain has to be up in the first place, and (should probably) only have 5 turns to make use of it, which can be particularly prominent with Wild Charge and Howl turns.
There have also been discussions of Wish support, which in of itself is also a fair discussion point, but one I also think does require smart positioning to get value out of. No matter how we slice it, Wish Clefable is a set that is having it incredibly hard right now, even with an ideal recipient. It wants to check a slew of special wallbreakers, and since it lacks Regenerator, using Teleport to safely pass Wish does come with an opportunity cost unless the opponent gives you the switch for free (which a player should never do anyway). I think positioning a good Wish takes skill to do in this metagame since Clefable is pressed to take on quite a bit of heat from things like Dragapult and Kyurem, and even then sometimes isn't incredibly high value anyway if Zamazenta-C's checks haven't even been accounted for.
My point, ultimately, is that even if it can be powerfully enabled, this enabling requires actual positioning and smart playing to actually get full value out of, which is really what can be said of any powerful wallbreaker in the tier. I feel Future SIght does not fall into this category because it is less about smart positioning and timing and more just clicking a move and clicking another move to get your breaker in place; other enabling strategies, in my eyes, do require good playing to get value out of, which is why I think Zamazenta-C is fine even when given this kind of team support.
Meta Warping
This is another very common argument that I've been seeing, and it's one that I think comes from a very understandable place. The argument claims that Zamazenta-C's presence alone is not inherently broken and can very easily be handled, but it warps the metagame in doing so, and creates an uncomfortable emphasis on defensive checks to keep it at bay, which can create a deadly shift in metagame focus toward bulkier teams just to keep it in check.
I would like to say that this is something I do disagree with, and the main reason for this, in my eyes, is simply because of how many checks to Zamazenta-C there actually are. I would agree that this is an issue in most other cases, but the amount of switch-ins to its dual STABs and it being pidgeonholed into one coverage option or 0 means of boosting is legitimately a dime a dozen. There are a load of offensive checks (see: Volcarona, Victini, offensive Buzzwole, Aegislash, offensive Zapdos, Dragapult), balance checks (see: Tangrowth, Tankchomp, Buzzwole, Hippowdon, Slowbro, Zapdos, Toxapex), and stall checks (see: Tangrowth, Buzzwole, Quagsire, Volcarona, Skarmory, Toxapex); the ones listed aren't even all of them. I feel it's far too much of a stretch to say that it will warp the metagame when there are not only a myriad of options that actually handle it well, but actually have legitimate applications on teams and even had applications prior to Zamazenta-C's presence in the tier. It legitimately is a case of metagame adaptation in my eyes, even if some people feel otherwise, and it's adaptation that has shown to not only be fairly little, but has been more than effective in keeping it on a leash.
My exhibition for this mostly comes in the form of the teams I built. Zamazenta was a Pokemon I didn't really consider too strongly when building. For my BO one which performed phenomenally for me in the last stretch of my suspect, my Zamazenta counterplay was Tankchomp and Tapu Koko to revenge kill. Zamazenta was and remains to be barely an issue for it. I simply made sure to chip it down with my Garchomp and with pivoting spam, and once I did that, I picked it off with my Tapu Koko; and it just sometimes outright dropped to Garchomp. Garchomp was a decision that was slightly influenced by Zamazenta, but one that mostly came in the form of wanting a Stealth Rock setter that could punish attempts to try and out-momentum my team, while also having an Electric-type immunity and Urshifu-R answer. Even against Ice Fang variants, Garchomp barely broke a sweat. My good friend Lilburr also explored something similar in her post, where she used several pre-Zamazenta-C teams and claimed to have literally no issue dealing with it, which is further proof of this concept in action.
Offensive teams, likewise, are not nearly as shut down by Zamazenta-C as it may otherwise seem. Screens offenses easily stomach its hits since it lacks immediate power, and overpowering it with a wallbreaker like Garchomp or SD Rillaboom is really not too hard at all; Webs shivs half of what makes it so strong; and against most weather teams it is nearly complete dead weight and is easily overwhelmed (except against Tyranitar-facilitated sand and hail). As explained before, Balanced Offenses have absolutely no qualms in checking Zamazenta since having a backbone is generally part of the battle, and there are, as demonstrated, a load of options to choose from that can also provide more utility for your team. Hell, even if you somehow don't have the room for a certain defensive Pokemon that checks Zamazenta--Victini, Zapdos, Aegislash, and Volcarona are calling your name, and are all rising stars in the metagame for other reasons too. Natural Zamazenta-C counterplay is just not that hard to come by, and it requires just a little bit of attention (if even) to actually keep in check on its own.
--
Overall, I am in team unban for all of the reasons stated above. Although I definitely understand the sentiment of the pro-ban arguers, I genuinely cannot get myself to subscribe to the idea that it will warp the metagame in an unhealthy way, and that it is driven to brokenness through enabling strategies. I see Zamazenta-C as a phenomenal win condition and fascinating revenge killer, but it's one that needs to be played intelligently and with good positioning to get max value out of, which I find to be a fine presence in the tier, and one that isn't really breaking the metagame at all.
That being said, I've been playing the Zamazenta-C meta quite a bit since the eclipse of the suspect test, and with it, I've gained quite a lot of experience both using and playing with Zamazenta. I've been laddering and managed to get my reqs using two different Zamazenta-C teams; one HO, and one balanced offense. They're both pretty solid teams, so I'll be happy to share them.
Dual Terrain Balanced Offense
This team is probably one of my favorite builds I've made in the whole of SS OU, and it's simply because of how badass Nature Power Heatran is with terrain support (seriously, try it if you haven't already), allowing for my offensive core of Zama/Rilla/Koko to rip more effective holes without being forced to pivot constantly. Koko and Rilla also pivot against things like Ferrothorn and Corviknight, which are ripe for the picking on a Heatran pivot, letting it enforce mad powerful progress with a nuclear Magma Storm --> Nature Power, which can smash bulky waters and surprise nuke stuff like Swampert and Gastrodon which can be annoying to play around even with Rillaboom. This team is incredibly reliable and it has been an absolute godsend for my escapades in the higher ladder while getting reqs. Just watch out for Tapu Lele and Kyurem; Lele moreso. Heatran can force 50/50s between Lele's STABs and Focus Blast but that's not anything to rely on.
Zamazenta-C shines on this team as both an emergency damage sponge against physical wallbreakers if Garchomp/Mandibuzz have sustained too much damage, as well as a speedy win condition that capitalizes well on Heatran's ability to trap and remove literally all of its checks (except for Tankchomp). It benefits from both terrains as well, boasting a boosted Wild Charge or passive recovery/an Earthquake neutrality depending on the situation.
Screens Grass Spam HO
While this team isn't really super consistent, it's a pretty neat low ladder buster that aims to overload and blow down conventional Zamazenta and Volcarona checks. Zamazenta-C can admittedly be swapped out for Hawlucha and Rillaboom can don its much more fearsome Life Orb variant, but Zamazenta definitely pairs well on Grass spam since it both benefits from the terrain Rillaboom sets, and from their ability to overload Zamazenta's checks. The make of this team can definitely be solidly adapted into a more standard balanced offense or VoltTurn that utilizes Grass spam to a similar effect, but this works pretty well too. Grimmsnarl, I've found, is also a really neat screens setter since it provides a check to what is considered to be the quintessential Screens offense destroyer: Dragapult. This isn't the place to gush about Grimmsnarl, though, so I'll save that for elsewhere; I just felt it was important to contextualize in case someone wanted to try using the team.
Grimmsnarl's spread outspeeds standard Mandibuzz, and puts the rest into bulk to take on Dragapult more reliably. Volcarona's spread is geared to take at least 2 of any one of Zamazenta's moves, putting the rest into Special Attack to optimize its ability to take down Landorus-T before it can retaliate.
----
So, let me get to the point: what do I think of Zamazenta-C now that I've had ample time to play both with and against it?
This is a question that I admittedly have been pondering greatly about as I've been laddering and watching discussion in this thread unfold. I've found that both sides have really strong cases for and against it, and actually gauging whether or not Zamazenta-C should be unbanned is difficult without having actually played with and against it for yourself. If you haven't played on the suspect ladder thus far, I highly suggest you do so before you align yourself in one party or another.
In short, I still roughly feel the same as I did when I played with it on April Fool's Day, so I'll try to avoid repeating tired points that have already been made by both myself and others. If you'd like to see my thoughts on Zamazenta-C itself, feel free to give my above post a read.
Instead, I'd like to bring up a major new thing I've observed about it, as well as try to address some of the common arguments made against it. I believe Zamazenta-C's most banworthy traits are less what it alone can do, and rather how effective it can be with team support. Zamazenta-C alone, unsurprisingly, is held back by the very things we expected it to be held back by, and it has more than enough means of natural counterplay on offenses, balances, and stalls alike. I won't waste your time listing off the checks when they've already been mentioned more than enough times already. However, Zamazenta-C is absolutely superb when given the aid of powerful trappers (Heatran primarily), Futureport, and terrain support, which can very easily be provided for it. The main difference that Zamazenta-C has in comparison to other recipients comes in the form of its insane natural bulk and speed tier, which let it do its job much easier and in some cases, considerably better.
Future Sight
In the case of Future Sight, this is prominent as Zamazenta-C pairs phenomenally with Slowking, which is otherwise terrified of offensive Dark-types, whereas Zamazenta-C has no qualms pivoting into them and enforcing progress with a Future Sight active since it can afford to swap in a couple of times and capitalize on the Future Sight checkmate, especially into things like Bisharp and Weavile which can take advantage of the strategy otherwise with their nuclear Knock Offs and Future Sight immunity. This was a point brought up a few times before, and I believe the specialized Future Sight synergy is probably the best argument against Zamazenta-C since Zamazenta-C specifically is the only Future Sight abuser capable of consistently taking advantage of Dark-types that can otherwise keep the strategy in check. However, the reason I don't concede to this argument entirely is mostly because I feel the strength of Futureport is more its own issue than anything else, and Zamazenta-C is just another one of the many offensive Pokemon that capitalize on the strategy, with its own natural slew of benefits. It's incredibly difficult to reliably play around Slowtwin-styled Futureport strategies, even with a Dark-type, simply because you're put into a major positional disadvantage that enables the opponent to make progress with little to no effort necessary. Even if you position your Dark-type in to soak the Future Sight, you're expected to stay in if you don't want to force key chip damage, and the opponent can get up a hazard they couldn't get up otherwise, or force a Knock Off, or even spread debilitating status with you forced to be in a suboptimal position just to not let a key wall take dangerous chip damage. While without the Slowtwin package this has much more reasonable counterplay, their ability to freely pivot and heal simultaneously lets them facilitate Future Sight checkmates off with little to no prior positional advantage necessary. Zamazenta-C 100% capitalizes incredibly well on this, and I'm not here to argue the contrary, but the reason this strategy is so powerful right now is not because of Zamazenta-C; I feel that this is a self-contained issue that won't be resolved by keeping Zamazenta-C locked away.
Other Strategies
I've found in my time getting suspect requisites that Heatran is one of the best offensive Zamazenta partners that the tier can provide. Heatran is one of the most polarizing Pokemon in the tier thanks to its access to Magma Storm to trap and eliminate a slew of Pokemon, while being able to put down major pressure against Steel-type Pokemon. Heatran's access to Taunt, Earth Power, and the chad Nature Power let it trap a wide amount of threats, including nearly all of Zamazenta-C's defensive checks, which can enable it with shockingly potent results. However, I would like to contend that even with this phenomenal pairing, Heatran and terrain based strategies still require skill to allow Zamazenta to work to its fullest effect.
Let me show you this replay I had while on the suspect ladder; in fact, one of my last few games. This matchup was a pretty tricky one, as it forced me to figure out a way to capitalize on Heatran's trapping and wallbreaking abilities to reliably open up Zamazenta for an endgame. There were three incredibly troublesome walls in the form of Hippowdon, Skarmory, and Toxapex, but Heatran pressured all of them superbly. The main issue here was how this player came prepared with a Magma Storm switch-in, and how I lacked one of my own. On Turn 5, I clicked Taunt because I wanted to meet a middle ground between keeping Heatran and any other potential switch-in at bay; I wasn't liberally able to enforce progress easily, and had to get a bit creative with my positioning in order to get Heatran, Skarmory, and Toxapex all whittled down. Zamazenta won the endgame, but I couldn't just click a few buttons to claim my victory on the spot, because several conditions that required some thinking to fulfill had to be in place. In fact, I didn't even click Magma Storm once.
This positional, strategic planning applies in even greater depth with terrain based strategies. Although Tapu Koko and Rillaboom's terrain is incredible support for it, it's imperative to consider that the terrain has to be up in the first place, and (should probably) only have 5 turns to make use of it, which can be particularly prominent with Wild Charge and Howl turns.
There have also been discussions of Wish support, which in of itself is also a fair discussion point, but one I also think does require smart positioning to get value out of. No matter how we slice it, Wish Clefable is a set that is having it incredibly hard right now, even with an ideal recipient. It wants to check a slew of special wallbreakers, and since it lacks Regenerator, using Teleport to safely pass Wish does come with an opportunity cost unless the opponent gives you the switch for free (which a player should never do anyway). I think positioning a good Wish takes skill to do in this metagame since Clefable is pressed to take on quite a bit of heat from things like Dragapult and Kyurem, and even then sometimes isn't incredibly high value anyway if Zamazenta-C's checks haven't even been accounted for.
My point, ultimately, is that even if it can be powerfully enabled, this enabling requires actual positioning and smart playing to actually get full value out of, which is really what can be said of any powerful wallbreaker in the tier. I feel Future SIght does not fall into this category because it is less about smart positioning and timing and more just clicking a move and clicking another move to get your breaker in place; other enabling strategies, in my eyes, do require good playing to get value out of, which is why I think Zamazenta-C is fine even when given this kind of team support.
Meta Warping
This is another very common argument that I've been seeing, and it's one that I think comes from a very understandable place. The argument claims that Zamazenta-C's presence alone is not inherently broken and can very easily be handled, but it warps the metagame in doing so, and creates an uncomfortable emphasis on defensive checks to keep it at bay, which can create a deadly shift in metagame focus toward bulkier teams just to keep it in check.
I would like to say that this is something I do disagree with, and the main reason for this, in my eyes, is simply because of how many checks to Zamazenta-C there actually are. I would agree that this is an issue in most other cases, but the amount of switch-ins to its dual STABs and it being pidgeonholed into one coverage option or 0 means of boosting is legitimately a dime a dozen. There are a load of offensive checks (see: Volcarona, Victini, offensive Buzzwole, Aegislash, offensive Zapdos, Dragapult), balance checks (see: Tangrowth, Tankchomp, Buzzwole, Hippowdon, Slowbro, Zapdos, Toxapex), and stall checks (see: Tangrowth, Buzzwole, Quagsire, Volcarona, Skarmory, Toxapex); the ones listed aren't even all of them. I feel it's far too much of a stretch to say that it will warp the metagame when there are not only a myriad of options that actually handle it well, but actually have legitimate applications on teams and even had applications prior to Zamazenta-C's presence in the tier. It legitimately is a case of metagame adaptation in my eyes, even if some people feel otherwise, and it's adaptation that has shown to not only be fairly little, but has been more than effective in keeping it on a leash.
My exhibition for this mostly comes in the form of the teams I built. Zamazenta was a Pokemon I didn't really consider too strongly when building. For my BO one which performed phenomenally for me in the last stretch of my suspect, my Zamazenta counterplay was Tankchomp and Tapu Koko to revenge kill. Zamazenta was and remains to be barely an issue for it. I simply made sure to chip it down with my Garchomp and with pivoting spam, and once I did that, I picked it off with my Tapu Koko; and it just sometimes outright dropped to Garchomp. Garchomp was a decision that was slightly influenced by Zamazenta, but one that mostly came in the form of wanting a Stealth Rock setter that could punish attempts to try and out-momentum my team, while also having an Electric-type immunity and Urshifu-R answer. Even against Ice Fang variants, Garchomp barely broke a sweat. My good friend Lilburr also explored something similar in her post, where she used several pre-Zamazenta-C teams and claimed to have literally no issue dealing with it, which is further proof of this concept in action.
Offensive teams, likewise, are not nearly as shut down by Zamazenta-C as it may otherwise seem. Screens offenses easily stomach its hits since it lacks immediate power, and overpowering it with a wallbreaker like Garchomp or SD Rillaboom is really not too hard at all; Webs shivs half of what makes it so strong; and against most weather teams it is nearly complete dead weight and is easily overwhelmed (except against Tyranitar-facilitated sand and hail). As explained before, Balanced Offenses have absolutely no qualms in checking Zamazenta since having a backbone is generally part of the battle, and there are, as demonstrated, a load of options to choose from that can also provide more utility for your team. Hell, even if you somehow don't have the room for a certain defensive Pokemon that checks Zamazenta--Victini, Zapdos, Aegislash, and Volcarona are calling your name, and are all rising stars in the metagame for other reasons too. Natural Zamazenta-C counterplay is just not that hard to come by, and it requires just a little bit of attention (if even) to actually keep in check on its own.
--
Overall, I am in team unban for all of the reasons stated above. Although I definitely understand the sentiment of the pro-ban arguers, I genuinely cannot get myself to subscribe to the idea that it will warp the metagame in an unhealthy way, and that it is driven to brokenness through enabling strategies. I see Zamazenta-C as a phenomenal win condition and fascinating revenge killer, but it's one that needs to be played intelligently and with good positioning to get max value out of, which I find to be a fine presence in the tier, and one that isn't really breaking the metagame at all.
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I would like to preface this by saying I've been very on the fence about Zamazenta-C but am recently leaning towards keeping it banned. Like many of you, I initially found it underwhelming. I started by trying it on screens hyper offense and while it was not awful, it definitely did not seem broken. However, I was eventually able to get reqs using a Zama balance team I made with wish and future sight support and after playing many games with (and against) Zamazenta using this team, my opinion has evolved.
Zamazenta is not banworthy because it is an amazing wallbreaker and it is not nearly as splashable as other potentially broken mons. That being said, I found three aspects particular dumb about Zama that make me want it banned:
1) It can 1v1 way too many mons. This includes both switching into many offensive mons that don't have a super effective STAB and also beating many of its checks/counters in a 1v1 once they've been chipped a little. I'm not going to post any calcs here because these 1v1's I'm referring to are generally mid/late game scenarios where there's been variable chip all around so I'd just be cherry-picking, but the point is that from my experience Zama can too often come in and force a 1v1 trade to either emergency check an opposing sweeper or get rid of one of its own checks for a teammate (e.g. Zama could tank an Earthquake from Lando and potentially KO it in return to allow a teammate to sweep). Also, one critical reason why Zama is a bit better at this 1v1 game than something like Melmetal (another bulky + strong steel) is that Zama generally has to take one less hit due to its high speed. Zama's ability to win many of these 1v1's and force certain trades at the right time mid/late game is overpowering imo and is something overlooked by many users. Furthermore, while I don't think Zama invalidates offense/hyper offense, the users that have been saying this certainly have a point because many of the mons that Zama easily switches in and 1v1s are the offensive mons commonly seen on these teams.
2) Zamazenta is much more effective with Wish (and maybe Future Sight) support. This is definitely the point that is capable of pushing Zama over the line in my eyes because without the right team support it wouldn't be nearly as effective. One of Zama's biggest flaws is that it can be chipped down due to lack of recovery and Wish support patches this up very well. All of a sudden with Wish support Zama is outlasting checks like Lando and can put in much more work throughout the game knowing that it can potentially be healed later. Thus, it can win these 1v1's I mentioned above and still put in lots of work in the match despite dropping to very low health. The replay I posted at the end does a good job demonstrating the benefits of Wish support in my opinion. I also had Future Sight and Grassy Terrain support on my team, and while I found these to be effective in enabling Zama, Wish stood out to me the most. Furthermore, while Zama certainly does require the right team support, Wish/Future Sight/Grassy Terrain users are already common/easy to fit onto teams and this type of support would benefit the whole team, not just Zamazenta, making it less of an opportunity cost.
3) This point kinda goes along with 1) and 2), but Zama is basically impossible to OHKO; obviously this allows Zama to win many more 1v1s and stay alive in order to receive Wish support.
To be honest it's kinda hard to put my finger on exactly why I think Zama may be banworthy; I'm definitely leaning towards ban atm due to my experiences on the ladder, which are harder to put into coherent words and articulate well than I thought. It's also getting pretty late here so I might add more to this tomorrow or try to structure my thoughts better in another post. I think the replay at the end of this post does a decent job showing how Zamazenta can be used well with the right team support. The bottom line is Zamazenta certainly blurs the line between being a great OU pokemon and a broken one in my opinion and I wish we had a couple more weeks to see how the meta shapes up before voting.
https://pokepast.es/0a78bddbce854d79
I built this team around giving Zamazenta Wish and Future Sight support. The general strategy I used was attempting to force progress early game by wearing down Zama/Rillla's checks/counters with Toxic, Knock Off, Future Sight, general chip damage etc. and then capitalizing once the said check/counter was removed. Zama and Rillaboom share some of the same checks/counters (e.g. Zapdos, Volcarona, Buzzwole) which makes it easier to overwhelm them together. Clef and Slowbro (was king, but I switched to bro since Heatran and Clef were both sp def) are there for Wish and FS support. Heatran is generally just a great pokemon and also completely shuts down Volcarona, which annoys Rilla and Zama; it also really benefits from the Wish and Grassy Terrain support. Finally, since Leftovers and U-turn aren't really necessary on Lando-T (due to Wish support for Leftovers and two Teleport users already for U-turn), I can run Toxic, Knock, and Rocky Helmet to always put in work and make progress. I could try and fit rocks onto Heatran to enable LandoT to Defog, or both Defog and Rocks on LandoT, but I've found Defog to not be incredibly important for this team. Jolly > Adamant on Zama is really just for other Zama, but outrunning Torn-T is nice too.
I built this team around giving Zamazenta Wish and Future Sight support. The general strategy I used was attempting to force progress early game by wearing down Zama/Rillla's checks/counters with Toxic, Knock Off, Future Sight, general chip damage etc. and then capitalizing once the said check/counter was removed. Zama and Rillaboom share some of the same checks/counters (e.g. Zapdos, Volcarona, Buzzwole) which makes it easier to overwhelm them together. Clef and Slowbro (was king, but I switched to bro since Heatran and Clef were both sp def) are there for Wish and FS support. Heatran is generally just a great pokemon and also completely shuts down Volcarona, which annoys Rilla and Zama; it also really benefits from the Wish and Grassy Terrain support. Finally, since Leftovers and U-turn aren't really necessary on Lando-T (due to Wish support for Leftovers and two Teleport users already for U-turn), I can run Toxic, Knock, and Rocky Helmet to always put in work and make progress. I could try and fit rocks onto Heatran to enable LandoT to Defog, or both Defog and Rocks on LandoT, but I've found Defog to not be incredibly important for this team. Jolly > Adamant on Zama is really just for other Zama, but outrunning Torn-T is nice too.
Zamazenta is not banworthy because it is an amazing wallbreaker and it is not nearly as splashable as other potentially broken mons. That being said, I found three aspects particular dumb about Zama that make me want it banned:
1) It can 1v1 way too many mons. This includes both switching into many offensive mons that don't have a super effective STAB and also beating many of its checks/counters in a 1v1 once they've been chipped a little. I'm not going to post any calcs here because these 1v1's I'm referring to are generally mid/late game scenarios where there's been variable chip all around so I'd just be cherry-picking, but the point is that from my experience Zama can too often come in and force a 1v1 trade to either emergency check an opposing sweeper or get rid of one of its own checks for a teammate (e.g. Zama could tank an Earthquake from Lando and potentially KO it in return to allow a teammate to sweep). Also, one critical reason why Zama is a bit better at this 1v1 game than something like Melmetal (another bulky + strong steel) is that Zama generally has to take one less hit due to its high speed. Zama's ability to win many of these 1v1's and force certain trades at the right time mid/late game is overpowering imo and is something overlooked by many users. Furthermore, while I don't think Zama invalidates offense/hyper offense, the users that have been saying this certainly have a point because many of the mons that Zama easily switches in and 1v1s are the offensive mons commonly seen on these teams.
2) Zamazenta is much more effective with Wish (and maybe Future Sight) support. This is definitely the point that is capable of pushing Zama over the line in my eyes because without the right team support it wouldn't be nearly as effective. One of Zama's biggest flaws is that it can be chipped down due to lack of recovery and Wish support patches this up very well. All of a sudden with Wish support Zama is outlasting checks like Lando and can put in much more work throughout the game knowing that it can potentially be healed later. Thus, it can win these 1v1's I mentioned above and still put in lots of work in the match despite dropping to very low health. The replay I posted at the end does a good job demonstrating the benefits of Wish support in my opinion. I also had Future Sight and Grassy Terrain support on my team, and while I found these to be effective in enabling Zama, Wish stood out to me the most. Furthermore, while Zama certainly does require the right team support, Wish/Future Sight/Grassy Terrain users are already common/easy to fit onto teams and this type of support would benefit the whole team, not just Zamazenta, making it less of an opportunity cost.
3) This point kinda goes along with 1) and 2), but Zama is basically impossible to OHKO; obviously this allows Zama to win many more 1v1s and stay alive in order to receive Wish support.
To be honest it's kinda hard to put my finger on exactly why I think Zama may be banworthy; I'm definitely leaning towards ban atm due to my experiences on the ladder, which are harder to put into coherent words and articulate well than I thought. It's also getting pretty late here so I might add more to this tomorrow or try to structure my thoughts better in another post. I think the replay at the end of this post does a decent job showing how Zamazenta can be used well with the right team support. The bottom line is Zamazenta certainly blurs the line between being a great OU pokemon and a broken one in my opinion and I wish we had a couple more weeks to see how the meta shapes up before voting.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1323187249-ncrybu6yqexqdxxoi7vkwe9mmuq5vdppw
(my opponent forfeited just before the very end, but for what it's worth I would've used Grassy Terrain to enable Zama to safely setup on that Dragonite and finish the game off)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1323788130-ytmngdnk576r51axvbjbat6idtu41vbpw
Zama can easily set up on his Hippowdon once it’s a little chipped and sweep
(my opponent forfeited just before the very end, but for what it's worth I would've used Grassy Terrain to enable Zama to safely setup on that Dragonite and finish the game off)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1323788130-ytmngdnk576r51axvbjbat6idtu41vbpw
Zama can easily set up on his Hippowdon once it’s a little chipped and sweep
I think running Behemoth Bash > Ice Fang makes Zama more effective because BB hits many things neutrally without drawback and has a high base power (a neutral BB is stronger than a 2x effective Ice Fang fyi). Not having to resort to Close Combat to do respectable neutral damage also makes Zama harder to play around/revenge. The main targets of Ice Fang are Lando, Chomp, and Zapdos; Lando and Chomp can be relatively easily worn down over the course of a game and BB still hits them reasonably hard as it is; also, I wouldn't use Ice Fang to break Zapdos unless you have cleric support because odds are you're going to have to touch it more than once to kill it.
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That's not how the burden of proof works. It actually lies on the party that want to change the status quo by bringing the dispute up, that is in this case on those who want to unban Zamazenta-Crowned.
Your giant wall of calcs hardly proves anything. First you start off by calcing J o l t e o n of all things, as well as stating torn t and thunderus t as “answers” which is just not true at all. You really think thunderus t can switch into a behemoth bash or cc from a zamazenta? Not to mention it doesn’t come even close to killing it back with any move in its possession, even with specs. And then posting this calc:
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 322-380 (94.4 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
and then later saying how urshifu has a good matchup vs zamazenta at the end of all of these calcs, after litterally posting how zama had a 68.8% chance to ohko urshifu after a howl, and a guaranteed ohko after rocks chip. Not to mention the only thing you calced were rain mons, and I’m still not sure why, as rain has not only recently fell off, but was a pretty small archetype to begin with. Specifically calcing zama vs rain to determine how broken or not broken it is is downright stupid, not to mention that all of the mons you listed have a losing matchup vs zama. You could’ve at least bothered to calc seisemetoad, the one rain mon that actually has a decent matchup vs zama with some pivoting around.
I didn't say Jolteon was good, the person I replied to said rain teams started to run Jolteon as a way of speed control against Zama. I never said that either of the Genies were "answers", but just that they were similar in power to Jolteon. The calc for Urshifu-R was to show how Zama needed a Howl to beat Urshifu
The person who said Jolteon was used as a measure against Zama never specified the ELO that match happened at or the skill of the person they were facing or even the replay. They seem to use this as an example of how "ZAMA WARPS THE TIER" and I'm sorry, is anyone supposed to take that seriously?
The point of the post was to show Jolteon wasn't required on rain to beat Zama and rain, while not in the best spot in the meta, isn't bad because of Zama
In this post just a few messages earlier, https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ss-ou-suspect-process-round-10-royals.3681787/post-8823397, I talk more about Zama, however I'd rather you debate Asuma's post https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ss-ou-suspect-process-round-10-royals.3681787/post-8824284 as it says what I try to say in a far more elegant and polished manner
As much as I don't want to turn this thread into a debate about rhetoric, I'm quite certain that the burden of proof is on the pro-ban side. If we weren't in a suspect test you might be right, but the important context of the "status quo" that we currently find ourselves in is that Zama has already been determined to be lacking enough to potentially drop down, which is what the suspect test is for. This would mean that the burden of proof is not on those who agree with the decision already made by the tiering council, but rather those who contrarily disagree with the concept of Zama in OU.
The burden of proof is on everyone, that’s just facts. Just because you have a certain side in an argument doesn’t mean you don’t need proof and that you can just say whatever you want, that would just be silly. I strongly suggest we should stop putting the burden of proof on either side and accept the reality that it belongs to both sides, both pro ban and pro unban. That’s all I want to say.
Hi all; let’s not let this thread derail into a semantics discussion. If you want to make an argument and contribute to the discussion, the burden of proof will be on you no matter what side of the argument you’re on. That’s simply how debates such as these work. Further posts dedicated to arguing this will be deleted.
Thank you!!! ovo b
Thank you!!! ovo b
The OU tiering council believes Zamazenta-Crowned deserves the opportunity to be tested down from Ubers into the OU tier. Please note that a retest does not make it an official addition to the OU tier, but rather it allows for Zamazenta-Crowned to have the opportunity to be voted down from Ubers to OU. In order to have an accurate vote, we will be retesting Zamazenta-Crowned on the OU ladder over the next few weeks, much like any other suspect test.
The council believes now is the best time to test Zamazenta-Crowned as the recent survey established that players and council alike believe the metagame to be very competitive and balanced. Following the Cinderace and Magearna bans, there have been no outstanding candidates that would warrant tiering action. This can be backed up by 68.5% of the playerbase from the survey that stated they do not believe that any Pokemon currently in the OU tier deserves a suspect test. These factors coupled together provide a good opportunity for the council and the community to evaluate the potential impact Zamazenta-Crowned can have on the OU tier.
The survey also displayed that 51% of players support a suspect test for Zamzenta-Crowned, with the remaining 14.6% being indifferent, and 34.4% being against it. While 51% is barely more than half, when you consider how the 14.6% of players that feel indifferent do not oppose the test, it could be seen as saying that 65.6% of players are open to testing Zamazenta. With this majority in mind, the council decided Zamazenta-Crowned was in a fair position to receive a suspect test due to the various reasons detailed below.
Zamazenta-Crowned is unlike most Pokemon as it is forced to use Rusted Shield as its held item. This means it is unable to use other items, such as Leftovers or Choice Band. This by itself limits Zamazenta-Crowned’s performance to its stats, typing and its movepool. Zamazenta-Crowned’s bulk is naturally high as a cover legendary, sitting at a base stat total of 720. It’s ability, Dauntless Shield, provides it additional bulk by giving a +1 boost to its Defense stat upon entry in battle. This boost alongside Zamazenta-Crowned’s high Defense stat allows it to serve as a strong defensive answer to physical threats in the metagame, such as Melmetal and Weavile. This Defense boost can also be useful in making Zamazenta-Crowned difficult to revenge kill. For example, Zeraora’s Close Combat against Zamazenta-Crowned after Dauntless Shield only deals 35% - 41%, which means it is able to comfortably avoid the 2HKO. On the other hand, Zamazenta-Crowned’s high Special Defense stat can also make it difficult to KO, as a Shadow Ball from Specs Dragapult only deals 36.3% - 43.3%. Zamazenta-Crowned’s bulk cannot be underestimated and looks to be a large factor to its performance in the OU tier. This will be a key aspect to evaluate during the suspect test, as it may determine whether or not Zamazenta-Crowned’s bulk is too much for the current OU metagame to handle.
Additionally, Zamazenta-Crowned does provide another benefit in that it is essentially immune to Knock Off and Trick, both of which are very strong moves this generation. In an item centric metagame, this immunity can grant Zamazenta-Crowned some additional defense roles. Zamazenta-Crowned is more reliable at handling Trick users like Clefable and Tapu Fini, as they will be unable to trade their items away. Knock Off users that have recently risen in prominence such as Bisharp and Weavile will now have to deal with an opposing threat that eat Knock Off comfortably. Not only is Zamazenta-Crowned immune to losing its item, but its typing, bulk, and ability allow it to tank Knock Off with ease and force Dark-types out.
While Zamazenta-Crowned boasts immense bulk, it also has a respectable Attack stat. Base 130 Attack with a decent movepool, including options such as Close Combat, Behemoth Bash, Ice Fang, and Wild Charge can allow it to pose a threat to a majority of offensive Pokemon in the OU tier. Close Combat and Behemoth Bash are strong STAB attacks, which can allow Zamazenta-Crowned to deal significant damage to Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Heatran, and Clefable. Its remaining attacks can provide solid coverage to hit every switch in - Ice Fang for Landorus-Therian, Wild Charge for Toxapex and Corviknight, and Fire Fang for Scizor. Despite the various coverage options, Zamazenta-Crowned may run into a small issue of 4 move slot syndrome. With 4 attacks, it has enough strength to punish offensive Pokemon, but it may lack enough attacking power to break through bulkier teams. With Howl, it can improve its breaking capabilities, but it then struggles to quickly KO threats like Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, and Scizor, depending on whichever coverage option was dropped.
While it appears to be difficult to answer offensively, Zamazenta-Crowned looks to struggle at breaking through bulkier Pokemon in the metagame. No boosting item and no Swords Dance means that aside from Howl, Zamazenta-Crowned is forced to rely on its Attack stat and coverage moves to break through walls like Toxapex, Tangrowth, and Corviknight. Wild Charge, while nice in theory, is unable to 2HKO a physically defensive Corviknight with 168 Defense EV’s even with Stealth Rock. Additionally, because Zamazenta-Crowned lacks recovery and cannot hold Leftovers, any residual damage from Wild Charge recoil and hazards is permanent. In other words, this means that Zamazenta-Crowned is on a timer, which has been seen less this generation due to Heavy-Duty Boots being a popular item.
As mentioned earlier, Zamazenta-Crowned does have access to Howl as its only boosting move. Howl, unlike Swords Dance, raises the Attack stat by a single boost instead of two. As such, this means Zamazenta-Crowned will require multiple uses of Howl before it is able to make a significant difference in its damage output. However, thanks to Zamazenta-Crowned’s bulk and Dauntless Shield, it may not be too difficult to set up multiple times in battle. It is essentially guaranteed to live any single hit, even strong super effective ones like Garchomp's Earthquake. Zamazenta-Crowned is already capable of setting up on a majority of physical attackers, and its bulk can help increase set up opportunities.
Finally, thanks to Zamazenta-Crowned’s high Speed stat, it is able to function as an offensive pivot that can provide defensive utility while simultaneously exerting offensive pressure in order to check faster threats, such as Kartana and Kyurem. This by itself opens up a potential role in the metagame, as it can provide an additional check to Tornadus-Therian, which only three other Pokemon at this current time can do (Tapu Koko, Dragapult, and Zeraora). Additionally, thanks to its typing and immunity to Knock Off, Zamazenta-Crowned looks to be a strong answer to Dark-types such as Bisharp, Hydreigon, and Mandibuzz, as well as Knock Off users including Ferrothorn, Rillaboom, and Clefable.
Zamazenta-Crowned in theory looks to be an interesting addition to the tier. It has a fair number of pros, such as its immense bulk and high Speed tier, and a fair number of cons, such as its inability to run another item as well as a lack of a proper boosting move. This thread should be used to focus on Zamazenta-Crowned’s place in the suspect metagame and nothing else. There should be no discussion of alternative suspects or discussion opposing this retest. Normal suspect rules and procedure, which is outlined below, applies to this retest as well. Finally, the threshold necessary to unban Zamazenta-Crowned is 50%+1 due to it being a retest and for more on this, consult this thread.
- ***THIS IS NEW TO SS OU SUSPECTS*** Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
GXE minimum games 80 50 80.2 49 80.4 48 80.6 47 80.8 46 81 45 81.2 44 81.4 43 81.6 42 81.8 41 82 40 82.2 39 82.4 38 82.6 37 82.8 36 83 35 83.2 34 83.4 33 83.6 32 83.8 31 84 30
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, more so than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:
- You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUTK. For example, I might sign up with the ladder account OUTK TPP.
- Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitation when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
- We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
- The aspect being tested, Zamazenta-Crowned, will be allowed on the ladder.
- Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
- Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
- Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
- The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until April 25th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Moderation team.
- No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
- No discussion on other potential suspects;
- No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes retesting Zamazenta-Crowned vs other potential suspects;
- You are required to make respectful posts;
- You are required to read this thread before posting.
- Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
- Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
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I Think that Zamazenta-Crowned should go to OU, as it lacks body press, which would work well with its dauntless shield ability, which would help it stay in Ubers. The second thing is a follow up, being that it has howl, which isn't as good as swords dance to raise its attack, and the set that works "best" As you have stated before, its moves are able to 2HKO staples in the tier, and that pokemon such as Dragapult can't revenge kill him. However, a specially offensive Heatran with a modest nature and maxed out special attack using Magma Storm is able to OHKO Zamazenta-Crowned.
HP: 92 Attack: 130 Defense: 145 Sp. Atk: 80 Sp. Def: 145 Speed: 128
Let's do some math, it has an impressive amount of bulk, its ability is definitely not competitive in OU considering that it can reach +1 in Defense already with its entry into the field.
I state that Speed Boost is already at the limit (along with Soul Heart), but moreover in the past there was also Moxie so currently as a mechanic there could also be and I think it is tolerable. BUT NO Dauntless Shield!
It takes Momentum and allows you to set up quietly, plus it has a monstrous movepool capable of countering Slowbro, Toxapex, Mandibuzz Landorus-T and Zapdos (just to name a few).
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 218-258 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 266-314 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mandibuzz: 265-313 (62.6 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 212-250 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 244-288 (63.8 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 160-192 (41.8 - 50.2%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That's not all, the only ones who can outspeed him are Dragapult, Regieleki, Zeraora and Tapu Koko. And do you want to know who is able to revenge kill him? NONE OF THEM.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 216-256 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 220-259 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zeraora Close Combat vs. +2 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 114-136 (33.4 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 112-133 (32.8 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
The metagame is already centralizing on him, I've seen scarfers like Blacenphalon who can only do something if in range.
(252 SpA Blacephalon Flamethrower vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 236-282 (69.2 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
The rocky helmet is now the favorite item on Zapdos and Mandibuzz.
In conclusion, will the metagame become all based on the building of the latter where each team will arouse the presence of Zamazenta-Crowned?
YES
KEEP THIS BANNED and enjoy the current OU.
P.S. there are other ways to check and discourage the possible uses of Magma Storm, BandSharp, Garchomp, Dragapult, Kartana and Cloyster, if you don't succeed, you have big building problems.
Peace.
Zamazenta should be lowered. There are other steel types in the tier, such as Necrozma Dusk Mane, which fit on teams way better than Zamazenta does. Even OU steel types outclass Zamazenta, such as Corviknight, Skarmory, Exacdrill, and Heatran. It lacks body press, which if it had it, would be decent, as it complements its Dauntless Shield abillity pretty well, and could be somewhat viable in Ubers if it had it, which it unfortunatley does not have. it does have a at best decent moveset, but there are better offensive options than Zamazenta. That being said, Zamazenta should be lowered
ausma edit: please don't double post
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I'm on the fence of unbanning zama but the logic that "Zamazenta should be lowered. There are other steel types in the tier, such as Necrozma Dusk Mane, which fit on teams way better than Zamazenta does." is really poor. And I wouldn't exactly call excadrill a better steel type.
The goings-on of Ubers shouldn't affect the goings-on of OU. Spectrier is also highly outclassed in ubers, but that doesn't mean it should be unbanned; we had a whole suspect test about it. Necrozma-DM outclassing Zamazenta shouldn't affect its status in OU.
And it doesn't matter how good it would be with Body Press; I'm fairly certain it still wouldn't break it in OU and wouldn't at all make it good in ubers, but that hardly matters because it doesn't have Body Press.
To piggyback on the above post the Dauntless Shield Max Def Body Press is only marginally stronger than Max Atk CC and +3 Body Press is only a bit stronger than +1 Close Combat, though again irrelevant.
I have not participated in the suspect test with an OUTK account but I have laddered and used it and played against it. Zam-C is not banworthy in my view. It has a lot of checks and yes, offense can even check it (with Volcarona). So I don't have anything to add there.
I do want to say that a lot of the arguments "Zamazenta changes the playstyle and is therefore centralizing, we should ban it" are ridiculous and inertia-motivated. If Lando had been banned to ubers and was being suspect tested down, people would complain that it changes the meta and makes some playstyles more or less viable. The same holds for Rillaboom or any other top tier mon (its Grassy Glide is stronger than Normal-Arc's Extremespeed, it validates offense wow). Zamazenta is not overly centralizing, and it does not invalidate any archetype. Even HO can easily splash Bulky Volcarona. In order for us to ban something, it needs to overly centralize the metagame.
Let's put it this way. If Zam-C had been OU to start with, would people still want to ban it? We need to take into account this inertia bias. People by default are resistant to changes in the meta. They might say the meta is less fun because their teams have to be changed up a bit. If you want to argue that Zam-C is unhealthy and overcentralizing for the metagame do that, but don't just say it makes it "less fun" (which is up to personal preference) because it makes some mons (that you like to use) less viable and others more viable. I think Zam-C is healthy for the metagame, and the whole Knock Off spam and U-Turn/Volt-Switch/Teleport pivot spam is not that fun and makes games a lot less enjoyable to play.
Yo
Team used:
Team is based around WishPass Clefable w/ Zama-C, SpD Garchomp, and IronPress Slowbro. More about it Here.
Personally, I think Zamazenta-Crowned is not healthy for the OU metagame for multiple reasons:
Team used:
Team is based around WishPass Clefable w/ Zama-C, SpD Garchomp, and IronPress Slowbro. More about it Here.
Personally, I think Zamazenta-Crowned is not healthy for the OU metagame for multiple reasons:
- It can slowly, but surely get past its checks: Zama has a very, very easy time setting up, both because the switches it forces and the incredible bulk it has. It can pretty much 2HKO everything with +1, meaning it needs a little help in chipping its checks and it will be able to get past through them with correct play. For example, if Skarmory is chipped to 80%, it dies to 2 Wild Charges or even a CC + Wild Charge after rocks. Same thing with Hippowdon, and Corviknight is even easier to get past through.
- It's very very easy to support: Zama attracts support very easily. Grassy Terrain is an easy way to get over the hurdle of chip on top of making some of its checks like Garchomp and Lando-T pretty harmless. Electric Terrain makes it incredibly strong and able to get past Slowbro, Toxapex, Corviknight, and even Skarmory. Some of its biggest checks/counters. Future Sight is great on this guy for multiple reasons. Unique coverage allows it to utilize Future Sight pretty well, the ability to come in without a Teleport allows to have multiple partners for Fsight, not just Slowking, and finally its great speed tier + bulk that makes it impossible to revenge kill. The final one is bigger than you think, because in practice a lot of times you can maybe cheese going into Hydreigon or Aegislash on a predicted resist + Future Sight, for example, but because its so fast and so bulky it can just go back into clicking a move risk free. Another instance is a lot of times sacking a mon on the future sight turn to gain momentum that way, but there are very very few offensive mons that can gain momentum vs. Zamazenta-Crowned. Also, although trapping support, particularly Heatran, is good for every mon, I think Zamazenta abuses it the most since it forces so many easy foreseeable doubles and because of how much synergy it has with Heatran.
- Its best set is still not completely explored. I think that Howl 3 attacks, while good, is not the most optimal. I've been using RestTalk set and it puts incredible amount of work. On the other hand, Howl + Substitute lets it get past a lot of its checks like Slowbro and Corviknight and even uses them as set up bait.
- Rocky Helmet spam. IMO, Rocky Helmet spam is never healthy for the meta. Personally, I think while the item is good in certain teams and on certain Pokemon, whenever its spammed throughout the meta with huge usage it feels very ... I don't know how to describe it even. Rocky Helmet is not the epitome of a skill expression item, and the meta being warped around it doesn't feel fun either. It is important to keep the meta healthy, but also fun.
- It regresses the metagame. This is probably the biggest reason for me. I feel like the meta we had was pretty fun, creative, and protean. Dark Spam on the rise, balance / bulky offense wars, Slowking vs. Slowbro ideologies, Magnezone is finally OU, and even non-traditional mons like Terrakion and Haxorus were finding spots on teams. At the end of the day, if its not broken why fix it? That's the mentality I standby, and since I liked what we had, I'm going to Ban Zama-C.
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here??? Could've just looked it up yourself??????
Thanks mate.
EDIT : I don't have twitter.
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Finally got reqs! If you want to see my full opinion on Zamazenta in OU, check out my earlier post which I’ll link at the bottom of this post. If you want a short answer, I’m leaning towards banning zama.
Here’s my post from earlier:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-ss-ou-suspect-process-round-10-royals.3681787/post-8823438
Also if you want the team I used to get reqs, I’ll link it down below.
https://pokepast.es/931b40be6bc9d902
Ah, no worries. Sorry for my ang e r. Early morning + I, frankly, have an issue with getting annoyed when questioned, even when reasonable. Have a good day ^^
So what has your experience been then since completing reqs? It seems your opinion hasn't changed, but have you used or since talked to others who have used offense? How viable is Bulky Volcarona on Bulky or Hyper Offense? Has anyone seen success with using Bulky chomp/Landorus/Scarf Victini on Offense alongside Volcorona to check Zamazenta?
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