np: SM UU Stage 10.2 - Bug A Boo (Scizor remains UU)

[1234hjkl]

Well finally got my reqs after may failed tries, also wanna thank you itjustdrew the team you posted on the M-Sab suspect still does wonders.

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Now that is outta the way gonna put my two cents about my take on scizor. Scizor been around for I believe the entire run of S/M UU and I never felt it was a overbearing issue, people say you need around 2 checks for it on your team, but that same thing can be said about all the others top picks the thing about scizor is this bug ain't just a sweeper but a check to some of the scariest threats of the tier like Latias, Terrakion, M-Alt, and a few more , it also can check itself depending of the moveset of your own scizor. In my time in the ladder regardless of the team I used scizor wasn't an problem because I had lots of counters, checks both deffensive and offensive to keep it at bay. I will be voting No Ban on scizor, but if it goes, well I look forward to see how UU changes, just stop taking stuff from RU.

 

[Hogg]

Please post your proof of voting reqs here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-uu-stage-10-2-voting-identification-thread.3650837/

Reqs solely posted in this thread will NOT be considered eligible for voting.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I won't be voting, because I suck, but I will say that I am more neutral on this than I was before. I don't think Scizor is exceptionally broken, but after messing with some team building options for the New Meta Tourney (which I lost because I suck lol), I realized how much more freeing a meta without Scizor and those pokes would be. I think y'all are in a weird spot where the metagame is pretty alright right now, but it does have the potentiality of being even better; but you would have to ban a lot more Pokemon as Scizor taken out alone probably makes the meta worse.

 

[Hogg]

A lot of people are jumping on the idea that Scizor is the sole thing keeping threats like Mega Altaria, Latias and Terrakion from getting out of control, and using that to boost the argument that the current metagame is inherently unhealthy. I think there are some issues with that point, though. Scizor is NOT the sole check to those threats by a long-shot (nor is it even the best check in some cases). What sets Scizor apart is that it provides an excellent offensive check to top threats while also being an insanely splashable 'mon that offers other useful aspects to a team. You're not putting Scizor on your team because it's the only way to deal with Alt and Terrak. You're putting it on your team because it's really good and fulfills multiple roles in a single slot, and the fact that it's on your team means you don't need to dedicate the remaining teamslots to trying to find hard counters to those 'mons. I don't think Scizor is required to go on a team to deal with these threats, but instead that the omnipresence of Scizor, with its >40% usage, is an inherent limiting factor to these 'mons. Take Terrakion, which might hold the title of the most difficult Pokemon to switch into in all of UU. The reason Terrakion isn't overwhelming despite its incredible wallbreaking prowess and above-average Speed tier is that almost every team will have built in Terrakion checks without even trying, just by virtue of how popular Sciz and Alt and Lati are. It makes what would otherwise be a slam-dunk choice on most teams into a much riskier pick, one that is still effective at breaking bulkier teams but that can end up being a liability in many matchups. That's a good thing in my book, as it provides more nuance both to teambuilding and to playing.

That's what I mean when I say that Scizor eases teambuilding. It's not really "broken checking broken" and "Scizor is the only thing keeping Altaria and Latias and Terrakion at bay," but rather that Scizor gives teams the freedom to relax and not worry as much about stacking defensive counterplay to these (and other) big threats. I think there's almost no doubt that Scizor leaving will make teambuilding considerably worse, and rather than denying that point, almost everyone I've seen that supports a Scizor ban's suggested "fix" to that issue is to ban several other Pokemon too. I do think that if that's the direction the community feels is best, we can pull that off, but I really worry that playing whack-a-mole with the tier's top threats is going to fundamentally shift things in a direction more akin to what we saw in late ORAS. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is up to you, but personally it's not really where I want to see the tier go.

Re: the New Meta tour and the freedom in teambuilding it provides, well yeah, of course such a dramatic change means you're going to be able to make a bunch of new teams that would never be viable in the current meta. From what I've seen from the tour, though, I strongly suspect that that meta will eventually settle too.

 

[Darksafadao]

Im very much against the notion that scizor restricts teambuilding. Imo its the opposite. There is no other mon capable of checking Aero, Altaria, latias and terrakion in one slot. If scizor wasnt available, the whole teambuilding process would just be desperately tweaking teams looking for checks to said mons. In fact I have never ever played a tier as easy to build with as SM UU and I hope the tier stays the way it is now forever. I think I have like 30 teams which are all very different from each other. Admittedly, about 70% of them have scizor, but that isnt necessarily a negative thing. I say this because scizor bails me out in the teambuilder all the time. Scizor (and latias) arent mons you usually build a team around, but they are mons that you end up slapping on during some part of the teambuilding process because they check so much stuff and because they have great offensive capabilities. My point is without pokemon like that, I suspect the tier would either become a sweeper-fest where the first one to click a setup move wins, or just alot of really defensive teams, typically sylveon-steelix teams since this is now the only way of dealing with the tiers multitude of threats now that scizor is gone.

And to my second point, I also dont think checking scizor in the teambuilder is difficult at all. There are soooo many offensive checks to scizor. Zeraora, manectric, rotom, infernape, volcanion, starmie, blastoise etc etc u get my point. Even the quick attack variant so many people are complaining about cant get past faster steel types like bisharp, lucario and cobalion (which is very common btw). I have very little experince piloting defensive teams, so I dont know too much about that, but stuff like aggron+amoongus do very well checking pretty much any scizor variant. Because of Stalls passive nature, lo bug bite roost sciz is a huge threat. Ill agree to that. But banning a pokemon because one of its sets do well vs stall is ridiculous. Stall is a playstyle grounded in MU fishing anyway. If you are using stall you are hoping they dont bring that one stallbreaker that 6-0s. I dont see how scizor is any different from any of the other arguably more effective stallbreakers in that regard.

Well, my point is that to prep for Scizor you have to effectively have two teams slots for it, and that's what annoys me the most on it. Two slots for one mon. It leaving would affect those mons you mentioned, but still none of those 4 would take two slots each of such specific pokemon as they dont have the same versatility and arent as hard to check or wall. Of course Scizor leaving would make them better, and if that really gets to teambuilding those can be suspected; Scizor doesn't have to be herculean and hold all of UU on its back because a meta without it would just adapt and if changes are needed they will happen. I don't think Scizor's main argument for staying should be it is a splashable answer to these, as that's not really the question. It checking various mons is just natural. I don't see the real need of one mon having to check all of these in one slot and even if so I don't think that would imply Scizor isn't unhealthy. 60% of the teams don't run Scizor and can (in theory) deal with those (even though this doesn't really matter to the main argument I just wanna show that even if it mattered it doesnt really apply). I don't think Scizor's effect on teambuilding is positive and I don't think what it checks really matters, and even if it did, I don't believe it staying would be the only way out of this, mainly in a potential detriment of the tier.

About the checking thing, yes, there are checks and they are usable, my point is they aren't usually splashable like Volcanion, Zeraora, or Starmie, that you mentioned, and usually can be worn out by hazards which is just natural to use alongside Scizor. Aggron+Amoonguss is very specific to deal with one mon, I can't see how this isn't teambuilding restricting. My LO bug bite example was more of an example of how hard it is to find out what Scizor set it is which implies you basically have to take a leap of faith to try to scout it and potentially lose your sponge that you were mainly running to try to scout it.

And no, I never mentioned Stall mu as a point to ban Scizor and I think I'll never say that. I have some opinions on MU fishing and stuff but I don't believe this fits this thread so ill just end my point for this post.

 

[Adrift]

I'll be voting No Ban

 

[Vegalius]

UUSS Kit

 

[Big Brain Banette]

NOT VOTING YET
Even with Scizor Being gone, we still have a myriad of Malt, Lati or Terrak checks. For example, Doublade can do this against all mons. Mega Aggron checks Malt and non ElecZ Lati. Scizor also btw has checks itself. For example, Moltres can kill it provided it doesnt switch in a CB Knock or a +2 QA or Knock. Rotom is another check, and it's a even more splashable one. It hates switching in to cb knock tho. Even the aforementioned Mega Aggron can "Counter" all sets that lack Superpower, and even then a +2 Superpower isnt even a OHKO, and Fire Punch MAgg should be p standard now I guess?
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 265-314 (77 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sure, Mega Aggron misses Toxic, but Waters can easily be covered by Zeraora, Celebi, Amoonguss etc.
Obviously Mega Altaria will be near-broken with Scizor being gone, but... AGAIN... we have Doublade, Mega Aggron, Amoonguss, and Mega Steelix to check it. Hell, Scizor wasnt even a threat to MAlt due to Fire Blast malt being a thing, PLUS the fact that Malt is usually paired with Magneton. Lati isnt checked by it either; Hidden Power fire (albeit rare) just makes quick work of it.
Terrakion is the only case that is hard checked by Scizor; even then, Scizor cant take a CC well;
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 253-300 (90 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
Yeah. You NEED to run a secondary Terrakion check alongside Scizor. Since scizor takes 90 minimum, Stealth Rocks = Scizor is doomed and you get 6-0d.
Fortunately, There is a Lot of scarfers in the tier to check Terrakion.
That's all my thoughts, I'll grab my Reqs and come back later.

 

[AK THE LEGEND]

Uuss altop

Prob too late

 

[Chandell]

I took a hiatus from UU for quite a while, probably waiting for Sword and Shield for a new meta. But here is the chance to change this metagame focused on a handful of Pokemon. I was the guy who always had the unpopular opinion, and stuck by it. I remember all the hate I got for saying Breloom was broken. Before that was Weavile. Before that was Xurkitree. I stuck by each opinion for a reason, and that’s because I believed them. As for Scizor, the metagame will be better with him gone. So long as a couple Pokémon leave with him as well. Scizor is almost too good not to use, in some variety of his sets. He single handedly invalidates many Pokemon that would be decent if he wasn’t here. We’ve experienced a Scizor dominated tier the past few years, so I don’t see why you wouldn’t be curious to see what happens when you let the polarizing Pokemon go.

 

[Luggy]

so i'm gonna be voting BAN for scizor. I think scizor is way to centralizing for the meta, with multiple pokemon only being viable in the tier specifically because of scizor (magneton, rotom-heat, moltres), as well as just being a huge pain during teambuilding. Scizor can get in decently free with its respectable bulk, especially if you are running bulky sd scizor, and punches holes too big on most pokemon in the tier with banded bullet punch and uturn.

I would also love a new meta, since this one is becoming very stale.

 

[Hogg]

If you qualified, go vote! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-uu-suspect-process-stage-10-2-voting.3650960/

 

[Hogg]

With a guaranteed majority of votes, Scizor will remain UU! Thanks to everyone who participated this suspect.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...stage-10-2-voting.3650960/page-3#post-8146205

 

[Moutemoute]

Although I can understand people who vote "ban", I do believe that this decision was the good one.

Ban vs Do not ban​

 

[pokemonisfun]

Although I can understand people who vote "do not ban", I do believe that this décision was the worse one.

:,(

sad reacts only...no likes

 

[snorlax142857]

RU NU and PU all say thank u

but is UU better off? idk. though that scizor remains we probably don't need any more suspect tests... thoughts?

 

[mashonem]

RU NU and PU all say thank u

but is UU better off? idk. though that scizor remains we probably don't need any more suspect tests... thoughts?

MAlt highkey needed a suspect regardless of the results of the Scizor test

 

[avarice]

 

[JoebertIII]

MAlt highkey needed a suspect regardless of the results of the Scizor test

No thanks, I prefer having an easy way to break stall with facade.

 

[Taptricity]

 

[Stall is coming]

Just imagine something:

Imagine that Scizor was OU since the beginning of the generation and fall in UU now.
With all his qualities, I don't even know if Scizor will be quickban or ban with a suspect.

I don't say that Scizor deserves the ban of the tier UU, we decide that Scizor is not too strong for UU.
All I want to say is that: when a pokemon fall in UU, a lot of people are too cruel to him.
We complain that the pokemon is restrictive for the teambuilding, that he had not a lot of counters. We wanted to ban him because it will be a top tier of UU, that's stupid.

Examples:
1/

42% of the people believed that Mega-Slowbro is too strong for UU. Mega-Slowbro is RUBL now.
42% of the people wanted to ban a RUBL pokemon of UU ...

2/

For example, 54% of the people believed that Mega-Venusaur is too strong for UU.
When we consider that M-Venusaur takes the mega-evolution slot, do you really believe that Scizor is less banworthy than him ?

You can say that this judgment is useless because Venusaur is OU now, but if M-Venusaur fall lower than 3.41% (Venusaur is bad atm in OU), then M-Venusaur will be UUBL, and suspect of UUBL are rare (Sableye was not a UUBL test, it was a UU test).

I don't say that we should unban every mons who drop in UU. I say that we need to be sure when we vote keep UUBL, because a pokemon can't prove that he's not banworthy of a tier if he's banned before ...
Adaptation needs time.
If you think that a suspect pokemon is maybe a little too strong, maybe a little too restrictive for the teambuild, then vote Unban because you will see if this pokemon is really banworthy or not.

Scizor is UU for eternity now, make this suspect a jurisprudence for all others suspects in UU.

No thanks, I prefer having an easy way to break stall with facade.

Stall teams benefit of the presence of MAltaria, not the inverse. Look this post of pif just to look how much Altaria is a good pokemon of stall. ( https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ains-banned-see-post-37.3649890/#post-8120603 )

 

[Fusion Flare]

Just imagine something:

Imagine that Scizor was OU since the beginning of the generation and fall in UU now.
With all his qualities, I don't even know if Scizor will be quickban or ban with a suspect.

I don't say that Scizor deserves the ban of the tier UU, we decide that Scizor is not too strong for UU.
All I want to say is that: when a pokemon fall in UU, a lot of people are too cruel to him.
We complain that the pokemon is restrictive for the teambuilding, that he had not a lot of counters. We wanted to ban him because it will be a top tier of UU, that's stupid.

Examples:
1/

42% of the people believed that Mega-Slowbro is too strong for UU. Mega-Slowbro is RUBL now.
42% of the people wanted to ban a RUBL pokemon of UU ...

2/

For example, 54% of the people believed that Mega-Venusaur is too strong for UU.
When we consider that M-Venusaur takes the mega-evolution slot, do you really believe that Scizor is less banworthy than him ?

You can say that this judgment is useless because Venusaur is OU now, but if M-Venusaur fall lower than 3.41% (Venusaur is bad atm in OU), then M-Venusaur will be UUBL, and suspect of UUBL are rare (Sableye was not a UUBL test, it was a UU test).

I don't say that we should unban every mons who drop in UU. I say that we need to be sure when we vote keep UUBL, because a pokemon can't prove that he's not banworthy of a tier if he's banned before ...
Adaptation needs time.
If you think that a suspect pokemon is maybe a little too strong, maybe a little too restrictive for the teambuild, then vote Unban because you will see if this pokemon is really banworthy or not.

Scizor is UU for eternity now, make this suspect a jurisprudence for all others suspects in UU.

Stall teams benefit of the presence of MAltaria, not the inverse. Look this post of pif just to look how much Altaria is a good pokemon of stall. ( https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ains-banned-see-post-37.3649890/#post-8120603 )

venusaur isnt bad lmfao, if anything, its definetly not comparable to absoulte dogshit like blacephalon or keld.

 

[WMAR]

Scizor not being banned may be a good thing and a sign, Scizor is the glue of this tier. we all knew Scizor was fine but props for the council for this suspect. Mega Altaria in my opinion is good for the tier. Makes stall what it is and a good offensive pokemon, top tier, but not broken.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...anned-see-post-37.3649890/page-4#post-8133591

if you read the 3rd paragraph Hogg says if Scizor stays, theres a possibility of one of either 2 suspects, Mega Altaria or Drizzle/Drought. Personally im down for the idea of suspecting or testing Drizzle/Drought not because i feel Drizzle is fine, but i like the possibility and a chance to suspect Drizzle more since now we know Mega Swampert stays OU. At this point we can only go based on speculation as none of us really know the tier if we allowed Drizzle. Drought im more confused as last time we had it, Mega Houndoom shreds the tier in pieces, but if we add another weather, it may help vs mega doom.

Again its more speculation on my part but if we can test the weather abilities Drizzle and Drought, in my opinion like give it a week, allow it for a week and see how the tier handles them and via council vote to see if a public suspect can be issued for these abilities. We are nearing Gen 8 and i feel this is a great opportunity to test them before gen 7 comes to a close.

Like i said give a week for these abilities to be allowed and the council can determine if its healthy or not. Remember we banned Drizzle in Beta even before mega pert dropped for one month. We don't need to listen to me but im giving a suggestion

 

[Moutemoute]

Just would like to ask smth to Hogg. If Drought is suspected, we should ban Mega-Houndoom right ? (because I don't think it's a good idea to test Drought when Mega Doom is still on the tier, it's not accurate, we all know that this beast is broken under the sun).

 

[Sickist]

Building on Moute's point, I think the best course of action would be to not even bother with drought. We all know what will happen if we retest drought: We either QB Houndoom or don't unban Drought. That leaves me with a question: Why even test Drought at all? I personally think it's pointless and kinda a waste of time (not that time matters anyways because the council has a schedule), but I don't really see the need for Drought to even be looked at.