np: SM UU Stage 10.2 - Bug A Boo (Scizor remains UU)

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think you misunderstood my post. I was not criticizing you I was just wondering what your elaboration was as to why scizor himself was not actually broken.
Ah, My apologies.

What makes Scizor not broken in my eyes is the fact it can't run more then 3 attacks at once and it has kinda subpar speed. These 2 things hold it back tremendously, as well as non-roost sets being worn down really fast due to how many things Scizor has to defensively check. Bug Bite+BP+Superpower leaves you walled by Moltres, Doublade, and Jellicent, whereas Knock+BP+QA leaves you walled by Coba and Cune/other fat waters, etc, etc. It's speed also leaves it prone to be revenge killed by anything faster that can stomach a BP. This is alot easier then it seems considering how prone Scizor is to getting worn down. Despite being great and all and by far the best mon in the tier, Scizor's presence has made everything and their mother carry HP Fire, which isn't healthy imo, but it doesn't benefit Scizor at all.

tl;dr - Scizor is a powerful presence, but it's lackluster speed and inability to run all of it's coverage at once lead it to be not broken in my eyes.
 
Got reqs with this team

177505

177506

https://pokepast.es/361aa3a6b36843fe

Defo the most fun dumb team I've made that acc works this gen. S/o to BD chesnaught, the single greatest stall breaker in UU rn. But as for scizor being broken, I'm kinda on the fence. On the one hand, it allows for a blanket check to a lot of mons allowing for more room when team building but on the other hand it has so many good viable sets that it also heavily restricts it in many ways. I've found this to allow for a good deal of innovation when it comes to more extreme playstyles, i.e HO and drag-mag teams, but it also makes extreme playstyles much more consistent than your typical BO/balance builds. I noticed this as the majority of teams in higher ladder were extreme builds, i.e. stall, HO, dragmag offense. This makes sense because these are the teams that are least likely to get fucked over by surprise scizor sets, e.g. HO is always just gonna set screens and then blow up and go to your BP resisting setter, stall has mola and quag which between them cover all sciz sets (though it can still put in work with knock off or SD+u-turn) or u can just sack a mon/eject button and trap with magneton in dragmag's case.

I think this is probably an indicator that UU has a lot of room before it hits a ceiling of being an ideally balanced tier and even if it means we'll have a lot of suspect tests after, I have faith that the UU on the other side will be significantly more stable or at least not as contingent on one mon to be stable. I literally can't build in UU without scizor so that's probably a good indicator for me lol.
 

Jaajgko

I will disband the soccer club
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Since a couple of months, building in UU became a real pain as there are now so many threats you have to prepare for to the point where I often had to give up a teambuilding idea as no matter what pattern I followed it lead to a "bad team". However, as I started building for the New Meta Tournament, which bans Scizor, Altaria, Latias and Terrakion, I've had way more freedom in the teambuilder and building a decent team rapidly became way quicker, and I didn't have to make much compromises like it is with the current metagame. Sure Celebi, Togekiss and Aero will become top tier threats but I don't think they will become broken, as they have plenty of checks and it's not like Scizor was a great counter to any of these anw, a little bit of chip damage on bulky Scizor is enough to put it in range of Shattered Psyche, Togekiss can run babiri and doesn't die from unboosted bullet punch and Scizor takes a ton from Aero, and if the Aero stays in predicting Roost, the Zor is dead. So Scizor mainly just revenge kills and scare them but has also to fear switching into them. Stall could get better since Facade Altaria is currently the best stallbreaker while Latias, Terrakion and Scizor can run some techs to break through stall but as I said Celebi and Togekiss will be much more present and I also predict Bisharp to have a significant increase in usage which are all great threats to stall and the loss of Altaria is also a drawback for stall teams. Globally, a metagame without these four looks way more healthy and I don't think players will need to "relearn" the tier, sure you can pretty much throw your teambuilder away but the meta still feels like the current one. I've also seen people saying it would be "ORAS with mega stones" but that's a pretty poor argument since a meta isn't defined by the mons that are in it but by their viability and usage. So I think Scizor should be banned not only because it would lead to a better metagame but also because I think he is actually broken (explained in this post , I would also add that contrary to most sweepers you can't revenge kill it just by having a faster mon, which is I think the root of the problem).

Edit : I kind of assumed that if Scizor was banned Altaria, Latias and Terrakion would also get banned after that which could not be the case, and I also didn't talk about the argument about not wanting the metagame to change too much before Grand Slam but as Hogg stated, suspect tests were hold during all last editions of UU Open and the tour went well. I think we need to take the risk now that it is the last chance of improving the metagame before Sword and Shield. Don't be afraid to vote ban.
 
Last edited:

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
The timing arguments seem unproductive, nobody is building off of each other. Our conversations on estimating the effects of Scizor on the tier are much more productive. As a loyal UU community member, I summarized this discussion for you all:


What do we Think Scizor's Effect on the Tier is?
As always with suspects, a fair way to proceed is to estimate the effects of the suspect on the tier. Obviously this isn't a perfect science, but we should at least try to see what everyone else is thinking. I'll restrict myself to this thread because I think it is comprehensive but outside conversations, even off Smogon, can be competitively relevant too if anyone wants to bring them in.

The OP started off by claiming Scizor is the most influential Pokemon in the tier, being threatening with Choice Band and Swords Dance. After this description, Pearl began narrate some of Scizor's effects on the tier:

All in all, Scizor is a threat that often forces people to sacrifice multiple slots on their teams in order to have all of its sets properly covered. Still, in spite of this fact, it is also a Pokemon that single handily prevents a ton of threatening sweepers from getting out of hand, which is one of the primary reasons why it has managed to find itself a comfortable place in the metagame up until recently.
His point - Scizor has many sets that can beat many of its counters and checks so it means you have to use several Scizor checks/counters per team. Additionally, he notes Scizor "single handily" stops many Pokemon from being broken. These are two effects Pearl posits exist.

Vivalospride mainly responded to the first effect Pearl mentioned. Namely, he expands on Pearl's point by pointing to some common UU matchups that demonstrate Pearl is correct, Scizor needs many Pokemon to check it. Amoonguss, Cobalion, Alomomola, and Infernape and others can check some Scizor sets but completely fail vs other sets. This covers both defensive and offensive checks notably.

Scizor gets around it's checks really easily and covering all it's variations of SD sets is really hard. Amoonguss/Alo/Other just bulky blanket check type mons can help with the CB sets, taking U-turns n shit but just aren't enough for SD. A lot of people rely on guss like their sciz matchup is aight and then +2 bug bite murders them, or +2 bug z, etc. Quick Attack makes a lot of the more frail sciz checks like nape pretty useless if you let it set up, and other checks like heattom hate switching into knock. Coba checks a lot of variations of sciz but there's always the fight z/cb superpower to look out for. Tenta checks but is frail af physically, and Doub doesn't immediately threaten it too much while it also doesn't check knock sets. Scizor shreds through teams and works around it's checks to an extent that's incomparable to anything else in the tier for sure. But it also is really the only thing stopping a lot of things from being too much in the tier. Malt and sd rak for example both have their fair share of checks, but in terms of offensively pressuring these mons there's nothing that does it more consistently than sciz. A lot of teams that have like guss/glig as their fighting resists rely on sciz to keep something like sd rak from winning. Idk i'm literally just rambling b/c as I said I have no idea what I'm voting, sciz has it's fair amount of checks and counters and all that for sure and I don't think it's broken by any means, but it's very very dominant w/o a doubt.
So we still have two effects - Pearl's point that Scizor forces you to run many checks or counters which is supported by Vivalospride's post where he finds actual match ups of this and Pearl's other point that Scizor helps keep many threats in check. This second point is developed further by Hogg, who more formally and more strongly states that Scizor actually makes team building easier. He expands on the obvious idea that Scizor checks Terrakion and Altaria and goes on to say that the fact can check basically everything not resistant to Steel means it is easier to build teams.

Anyhow, I'll post my full thoughts later, but I do plan to vote no ban. I think Scizor has an overall positive impact on the meta despite how difficult it is to defensively check. Yes, if you're running a defensive team, you probably do need to run redundant checks to it (though the same is true for things like Latias and Mega Altaria), but it also provides so much offensive utility in one little slot that I think it overall makes teambuilding easier, not harder. Scizor's strong Bullet Punch is an amazing check not just to things like Terrak/Alt/Aero but to basically everything that doesn't resist it, and it single-handedly (clawedly?) allows teams to get away with not running hard defensive answers to every single threat. I think the overall effect is to make teams less reliant on matchup fishing and in turn to make the metagame more robust. I'll elaborate a bit more when I have time, but that's where I stand right now.
So we still have the two original Pearl points - Scizor means you have to run many Scizor checks + Scizor itself checks many things in the tier. Moutemoute comes in from another direction and supposes there is a third effect of Scizor on the tier - some Pokemon that would be otherwise usable in UU are invalidated because of Scizor.

Scizor invalidates on its own some Pokemon from the lower tier which means we may be able to see some new Pokemon if Scizor had to leave the tier (I think about Pokemon which are pretty weak to Scizor's priority : Bullet Punch ; like Gardevoir, Whimsicott or Espeon). On this other, some Pokemon in Underused will be better like Nihilego.
Moutemoute also reiterates much of what has already been said by Pearl, Hogg, and Vivalospride in his analysis of Scizor. So now we have three effects - the first two Pearl mentioned of needing many Scizor checks + Scizor helping check many things plus Moutemoute's contention that Scizor is keeping many otherwise viable Pokemon out of UU.

CBU adds to Pearls first point, that Scizor needs many checks, by saying that Scizor's niche checks actually are otherwise decent still in UU. He points to Pokemon like Rotom-H and Doublade as Pokemon that can check at least a few of Scizor's sets while still being useful in the metagame overall. CBU is trying to say that even if the first point is true and you need many Scizor counters, it doesn't necessarily lead to a bad metagame.

Furthermore, i would like to adress the point that scizor forces certain meta trends that make UU more stale. I honestly tho cannot look at any mon that rose in usage because of scizor(gligar, rotom-h, doublade, rh cobalion) and say that they are gimmicks. All have uses outside of walling/checkin scizor. A true example of a pokemon having a toxic influence on the meta because of its broken status is latias forcing the triple dark on scarf krook, which outside of revenging latias is a bad set.
Now, we are at Pearl's two points that have been added on to by various users plus a third point by Moutemoute that Scizor might be keeping some otherwise good Pokemon outside of UU. Silvioguacamole adds to Pearl's first point. He fully acknowledges that Scizor needs many checks and counters for every game but says this doesn't mean much because this is true of all S and many A rank Pokemon. He also reiterates CBU's point that Scizor checks and counters are just fine in the metagame.

While it is true that Scizor has tools to bust past some of it's answers, the same can be said of pretty much any offensive threat past C rank: ignoring A+/S ranks, which should be self-evident

At risk of repeating myself, this is not a trait that is unique to Scizor. A lot of the issues that arise from the need to have multiple checks are in the builder, and in the need to account for all potential sets in battle. While Sciz does have a obvious effect on teambuilding (imagine having to account for S rank threats when building a team, oh the horror!) it's go-to checks and counter provide a ton of utlilty outside of checking Scizor. Common countermeasures to various sets in Hippowdon, Cobalion, Empoleon, Gligar, Aggron, Steelix, Nidoqueen, Z Krook, Swampert, Blastoise, Mantine, Rotom Heat, Tentacruel, Moltres and Volcanion all provide hazard utility and are generally pretty splashable. Other measures like Doublade, Manectric, Amoongus, Crawdaunt, Lucario, Suicune, Zeraora Jellicent and Infernape provide much, much more than just checking Scizor and none of these mons would see huge drops in usage with just a Scizor ban. While it may be true that there is no 'one size fits all' check to Scizor, or many other pokemon, the difficulty of maneuvering around Scizor in the builder is often overstated due to the utility and splashability of it's checks and counters.
We then engaged in several posts on tiering policy which you can read if it interests you, but my goal is to see what we estimated Scizor's effect is, which is independent of tiering policy.

Adaam's post did not really try to estimate Scizor's effect, but he did describe some of its weaknesses which is good background information for us to use. The typing has drawbacks offensively. The below average BP moves except Superpower mean Scizor is only strong. And of course, the Fire weakness.

Steel is mediocre at best offensively, and Bug is even worse. It is not hard to find any one of a Fire/Water/Steel/Electric type to check Scizor offensively. The Quick Attack set can circumvent some of these frailer checks like Infernape, Mega Sharpedo, or Starmie, but this set must forego Roost since a 3rd coverage move is desperately needed so it runs the risk of killing itself. It also has awful coverage (no Bug Bite means walled by Slowbro, no Superpower means walled by every Steel-type), so it trades a better offensive matchup for a bad fat one.

Admittedly, Scizor has the ability to chip its checks with U-Turn, and this is exasperated if SR is up. However, U-Turn is not a risk-free move that players can click to gain easy momentum. Often the user has to pick between clicking Bullet Punch on something like Terrakion, or predict the switch and U-Turn. Picking wrong, especially in the latter case of U-Turning incorrectly, can be disastrous as you take a lot of damage from the incoming hit and are left at a health where you are no longer effective. Of course, there are situations in which U-Turn is 100% free (like at a -2 Latias), but such a situation should be rewarded if a player puts himself at that position. Scizor often finds itself in favorable positions, yes, but not so much that it needs to be banned.

Another point I want to make involves playing around an opponent's Scizor. SM UU is a tier with so many terrifying breakers and sweepers that, in my opinion, the best way to prep for them is to limit their switch-ins rather than seek to have sturdy defensive counterplay. Scizor is no different. Limiting its opportunities to generate free turns is key, and teching to do so is not herculean due to its 4x weakness to Fire and lack of immediate power. At the end of the day, 90 base power BP is nothing to write home about. HP Fire can be slapped on stuff like Latias and Celebi (or just a Z-move nuke), Babiri berry on Steel-weak Pokemon like Terrak/Toge, Foul Play Klefki, and Fire Blast Blissey.
Clefable comes from a different perspective, almost dismissing the premise that Pearl set up by saying Scizor is actually far stronger than implied. he agrees with Moutemoute's point that Scizor is stopping some otherwise usable Pokemon from entering UU. He goes further to call it disproportionately powerful. Again, Clefable is barely trying to estimate the effects of Scizor apart from his half sentence with Moutemoute's point. He's just contrasting with Adaam, who supposes that Scizor is just another normal threat, by describing Scizor as something that is exerting undue control over the tier.
But if you're one of the people who has known since the start of gen 7 how disproportionately powerful scizor is compared to the rest of UU, how it singlehandedly prevents mons such as slurpuff, cloyster, and forretress from seeing the light of day, how it shows up in 90% of games and provides the wincon, how it dissuades outsiders from UU from ever joining this static and boring tier, then you'll probably vote ban, and have no issues banning the rest of the obviously broken pokemon that pollute the UU S ranks.
Lastly, Jaajgko links to a previous post of his where he disagrees with Hogg, who in this thread said Scizor helps teambuilding. The fact that Scizor can easily beat some of its counters with the right set makes it hard too hard to play against and the fact that Scizor is so centralizing means its over prepared for and easily taken advantage of if its your only check to something.

Building good teams while needing two Scizor checks is possible and most players dealt with it but it puts a huge lock on the teambuilder as I often had to give up teambuilding ideas because I had to include a second Scizor check on top of having to check all the other threats. And I don't really feel like having Scizor in the tier eases teambuilding that much, it sure is a great revenge killer but in terms of defensive abilities it doesn't safely check a lot of mons since everybody preps for Scizor. If you want to check Altaria, you'll have to fear Fire Blast, if you want to check Latias, you'll have to fear Z-Thunder, Aero can run Fire Fang, +2 Celebi's Shattered Psyche destroys Scizor if it took a little bit of chip damage, Kyurem can run HP Fire, so most of the time you'll just be able to safely check bulky mons and set up on them. I am not denying the pressure Bullet Punch can put on the opponent but you can't go away with "I'll add a Scizor in my build a now I have a check to Altaria, Latias, Celebi and Aero". Actually if you want Scizor to check the mons I stated you'll usually have to run a non-optimal set like 244 HP + 92 SpD or Scarf / Assault Vest.
So globally, Scizor makes teambuiling in UU pretty challenging and removes a lot of options while itself not providing much defensive utility to ease up builds, and actually lets potentially broken mons stay in UU because it stops them from sweeping while on top of that being one of the scariest end game sweeper in the metagame with its SD sets one of the strongest wallbreaker with its Choice Band set. I think Scizor has a negative impact on the metagame and should be banned along with the other problematic mons it keeps in check.
So where have we gone? We still have the original Pearl point that Scizor needs many checks, but we qualified that saying the checks are not that hard to fit on, are otherwise good, and this isn't very special for an S rank. We also developed Pearl's point that Scizor checks many threats by saying it might make teambuilding easier. The flip side of this is Moutemoute's point that Scizor might be keeping otherwise good Pokemon out of UU. We think a la Adaam Scizor might just be another Pokemon with exploitable weaknesses or a la Clefable Scizor is something

Disclaimer: I know Pearl and others are not the only nor are the only persons who thought of these points as I refer to them. Names just makes following the debate easier. All I did was try and summarize.


Overall, the debate went like this:
  • Scizor means you have to run many checks (Pearl)
    • Amoonguss, Cobalion, Rotom-H, Alomomola etc. are all not perfect (vivalospride)
    • but running many checks is typical of S rank Pokemon (Silvioguacamole; CBU)
    • and those checks are actually decent Pokemon (CBU)
  • Scizor helps check many Pokemon (Pearl)
    • and this makes teambuilding easier (Hogg)
    • or it's a stale check easy to take advantage of (Jaajgko)
  • Scizor might prevent Pokemon from being used in UU (Moutemoute, Clefable)
I'll conclude by saying I read all your posts, even if not listed here. Thank you for taking the time to write. I hope you know people read your work.
 


Throughout SM UU's lifespan, Scizor has consistently been the most influential Pokemon, essentially shaping the whole metagame around its existence. While this Pokemon's presence in the tier has seldom been questioned by the majority of the playerbase, regardless of how centralizing and unhealthy many other people have considered it to be, recent concerns have led to the decision of giving Scizor a "public trial", with the purpose of allowing the whole community to decide whether or not banning Scizor would be in the tier's best interest. For more information on this decision, I urge you all to check out Hogg's post in the last suspect thread, as it also goes over the most likely timelines for both possible outcomes of the current suspect test, while answering potential concerns regarding the unbalance that such a drastic change could possibly cause.

Overall, this Pokemon needs no introduction to anybody who has played the tier in the past two years or so. Carrying the strongest priority move in the whole tier, courtesy of its ability and its base 130 Attack, Scizor shines the brightest when it comes to revenge killing and cleaning up, with its most two common sets being Choice Band and Swords Dance, the latter which has multiple different alternatives with varying amounts of bulk and all kinds of different moves and items, sometimes even requiring completely different counterplay from what one would expect (for example, Swords Dance + Quick Attack can pick Rotom-H and Moltres apart a lot more easily than traditional sets, but proceeds to lose to either Mega Slowbro or Steel-types in the process). However, there is also some value in some of its less used sets, with Choice Scarf being the most notable example, even receiving a decent amount of usage in the last iteration of SPL. Despite being a staple on more offensively-oriented teams, Scizor finds itself on a lot of other different team archetypes, possessing unparalleled utility when it comes to handling frailer threats that do not have much of a chance taking repeated Bullet Punches.

All in all, Scizor is a threat that often forces people to sacrifice multiple slots on their teams in order to have all of its sets properly covered. Still, in spite of this fact, it is also a Pokemon that single handily prevents a ton of threatening sweepers from getting out of hand, which is one of the primary reasons why it has managed to find itself a comfortable place in the metagame up until recently. Regardless of the community's decision, the tier's leadership personally feels that bringing this Pokemon up to the public is the proper course of action in order to guarantee that we can give Sun and Moon proper closure with the arrival of the next generation, while the timing allows us to properly deal with the aftermath of whatever decision is made at the end of this test.

Esta prueba sospechosa operará de manera similar a las pruebas sospechosas de Bisharp y Mega Sableye. No habrá escalera sospechosa . En cambio, la escalera UU estándar permanecerá abierta. Aquellos que deseen participar en esta prueba de sospechosos usarán un alt nuevo, específico para sospechosos. Los requisitos para el sospechoso serán los siguientes:

  • Todos los juegos deben ser jugados en el Pokémon Showdown! Escalera UU en un alt nuevo con el siguiente formato: "UUSS (Nick)". Por ejemplo, podría registrar el alt UUSS Pearl a la escala con. Debe cumplir con el formato indicado para calificar.
  • Para calificar para votar, tu alt debe jugar un mínimo de 45 juegos , y
  • Debes tener un GXE mínimo de 81 .
¡Eso es! Tiene hasta el domingo 2 de junio a las 11:59 PM GMT -4 para cumplir con los requisitos de votación. Siéntase libre de publicar si tiene alguna pregunta sobre el formato actual del sospechoso. ¡Feliz escalada!

[hide = UU Council]
Adaam
objetivo
Amane misa
Eyan
Hogg
HT
Pliegue
Pak
Perla
robjr
Sabio
Shiba
TDK
[/esconder]
[/CITAR]
yo creo que es mejor mantenerlo, es un buen Pokémon havil, y com buenas capacidades, pero también tiene conters, no es algo excesivo, de hecho posiblemente con los tapus se a dejado de usar al perderán la baza de puño bala... o no ser tan efectivo
 
Hey all, this suspect test is personally important to me(ngy) and I'd like to talk about that for a bit. I've been playing Gen 7 UU for over two years now and it's my favorite tier to play. Let me tell you why and hopefully give you a reason or two to love the bug.
Scizor makes UU unique. As the most powerful mon in the tier, it dictates the pace of play. I've seen some comparisons to Landorus-T, but unlike the rock-slinging, Intimidating OU mon, which slows matches down and turns OU games into hazards-and-pivoting slugfests, Scizor promotes aggressive and exciting gameplay with its STAB uturns and SD sweeping sets.

Scizor makes powerful priority easy to slot on a team, and with it, it keeps UU free of cheese by revenge killing speed boosting sweepers. I don't know how many of you played PU during the Lilligant days, but the best mon in the tier was a Quiver Dancer with access to a sleep move. That was miserable to play against. I know if Scizor goes Altaria will be the next in line for suspecting, but also consider whether you want Venomoth, Vivillon, or Barbaracle to be significant forces in the tier.

Scizor is unpredictable. I know some tier experts prefer games where an experienced player can pin down all sets at team preview, but I enjoy battles of imperfect information. To me, what separates mons from a game like chess is not hax or 50/50s, but the process of feeling out your opponent's team at the beginning of every game. Between Scizor, Latias, and other versatile mons, UU has given me a gameplay experience unlike what I think any other tier has to offer.

So in my eyes, Scizor is what makes UU fast-paced, exciting, and free from unfun strategies. Banning Scizor may move the tier in a direction that matches what we expect from other tiers, but it would push UU in a generic and bland direction. Without it, UU would be dominated by the likes of Terrakion and Primarina, mons with little depth and not much to offer.

I only have one vote, but I will be using it to push for NO BAN. I know there are many among us who don't particularly care for the tier and don't care what happens to it, but I'd ask these people to think of the people who do love UU as it is when they cast their votes.
 
Hey all, this suspect test is personally important to me(ngy) and I'd like to talk about that for a bit. I've been playing Gen 7 UU for over two years now and it's my favorite tier to play. Let me tell you why and hopefully give you a reason or two to love the bug.
Scizor makes UU unique. As the most powerful mon in the tier, it dictates the pace of play. I've seen some comparisons to Landorus-T, but unlike the rock-slinging, Intimidating OU mon, which slows matches down and turns OU games into hazards-and-pivoting slugfests, Scizor promotes aggressive and exciting gameplay with its STAB uturns and SD sweeping sets.

Scizor makes powerful priority easy to slot on a team, and with it, it keeps UU free of cheese by revenge killing speed boosting sweepers. I don't know how many of you played PU during the Lilligant days, but the best mon in the tier was a Quiver Dancer with access to a sleep move. That was miserable to play against. I know if Scizor goes Altaria will be the next in line for suspecting, but also consider whether you want Venomoth, Vivillon, or Barbaracle to be significant forces in the tier.

Scizor is unpredictable. I know some tier experts prefer games where an experienced player can pin down all sets at team preview, but I enjoy battles of imperfect information. To me, what separates mons from a game like chess is not hax or 50/50s, but the process of feeling out your opponent's team at the beginning of every game. Between Scizor, Latias, and other versatile mons, UU has given me a gameplay experience unlike what I think any other tier has to offer.

So in my eyes, Scizor is what makes UU fast-paced, exciting, and free from unfun strategies. Banning Scizor may move the tier in a direction that matches what we expect from other tiers, but it would push UU in a generic and bland direction. Without it, UU would be dominated by the likes of Terrakion and Primarina, mons with little depth and not much to offer.

I only have one vote, but I will be using it to push for NO BAN. I know there are many among us who don't particularly care for the tier and don't care what happens to it, but I'd ask these people to think of the people who do love UU as it is when they cast their votes.
Honestly, perfectly said. Im to lazy to get reqs, but im interested in seeing how UU votes. In my opinion, banning scizor is a godawful decision as it throws most of the tier off of balance, and not in a way that a "broken mon A checks broken mon B, so please dont remove it" kinda way. Scizor is not, and has never been broken or unhealthy for underused. In many ways, Scizor adds depth and creative elements to the format, spurring interesting growth and a inclusive meta (i.e magnetons existance, moltres' discovery), while also complicating the meta and pushing out unmons like zoro and nonlead slurp. Without Scizor, what do we have to stop fast sweepers? Predictable scarf mons? Or faster sweepers? Doesnt sound all that enjoyable to me. Scizor has many relevant and prominent checks in the tier, and banning it is unadvised at best, a fatal error in tiering at worst. Why do I say that? As I said in a earlier post, this decision strengthens arguments versus other prominent glue mons like landorus therian and could influence other decisions in that regard. Is Scizor good? Absolutely, amazing pokemon and quite solid in general. Is it unhealthy in gen 7 uu? No, moltres almost completely walls sciz unless its QA, and even then it doesnt want to hit moltres as it could be burned and crippled. Many of the steels in the tier deal with zor well, but it could metaphorically run superpower or knock for doub. My point is, it has prominent and useful checks, and we do not rely on niche mons to deal with it. It exists perfectly fine in the UU metagame, and helps it flourish into a more healthy and enjoyable tier.
 

MrAldo

Hey
is a Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I may not be an UU player but after having some perceptions of some uu players and how they feel about the meta and cant avoid to feel somewhat disappointed

Scizor may be an excellent glue but it promotes a big level of people just being comfy with it around and that everything is going to be fixed over time... not quite. If the only that keeps 3 big threats together that are an absolute pain in the ass in Mega Altaria, Terrakion, and Latias (last one being arguably more beneficial) so it is fine to keep those 3 cause of Scizor? That mediocre perception of a "fine" metagame because of Scizor feels far more toxic than beneficial and if it takes Scizor life to make very clear about really broken stuff, then it is going to be beneficial on the long run. It did wonders for xy ou. Just for the record, Aegislash in xy was pretty similar to this in xy, huge proportions aside. Holding 3 big mons back and overshadowing truly busted mons. A bunch of fixes needed to happen but in the end xy ou meta looked and felt really great until the end of its run. Truly believe it could be the same case for SM UU as a whole.

Idk, in the end the UU gotta decide what they want and see what is more beneficial. In my eyes, UU without Scizor and the stuff that could be banned afterwards could be much better. With dominant threats but with enough tool to play around them. Throwing around buzzwords like technical, flashy, competitive, fast-paced just feels wrong and heavily diminishes the opinion of someone that wants to me something different (and you sound ridiculous saying that btw, imo). Dont do that. Express your perception in a good and respectable way, but not like it was a political campaign.

If I could vote Id vote ban, this mon have had the same unhealthy for the uu meta for over 3 years and people are just jumping against it cause it does so much while being a massive pain itself, Aegislash effect. Id like to see a much more variety and being more brave in the decision into having a much different and diverse metagame. Vote wisely and have fyn everybody.

Cheers!
 
MrAldo, your post leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm pro-ban, but what you wrote makes the pro-ban side look like outsiders who have never played a game of UU yet still want to meddle with it.

If I could vote Id vote ban
Well, you can vote ban. All you need to do is get reqs like everyone else. But you won't, because you don't care enough about UU to form an informed opinion about the metagame.
 
Last edited:
Hello everyone, I have observed your reasoning and have come to a purely perfonal conclusion

177595



Let's not fool ourselves because Scizor is definitely broken in this metagame
He has excellent skills as a supporter, both as a wallbreaker and as a cleaner / sweeper.
I can assimilate the current suspect like Zygarde's past suspect in OU.
If you notice the reasons why you voted for ban on zygarde was because the teams were full of the Dragon or because there were problems related to the saturation of the building.
In fact, I noticed that the problems are similar.

What would happen in terms of usage in case of ban?

>>>
176229

Altaria will be the therat number 1, definitely broken without a concrete counter that can fully check it.
I foresee a usage (and therefore an increase in rank) by
176244
,
n
. With the help of a teammate wish passer
or
.

A possible sample:
177596


Alternative:

>>>

Terrakion with the band is a possible S rank, used in core with Altaria can guarantee kill on Steel or on the same wall (without taking into account Doublade).

//
<<<

I don't see how Moltres could find usage after a Scizor ban, anyway there are better checks for Bisharp like Gligar and I really think they will opt for the second since it can wall both Aggron and Steelix.

<<<

I really think that it will lose its usage, given that it has no recovery and above all because the possible steel tipes resist to stab and I have a movepool such as to revengekill him

In the end
The origin of this study is to make you understand how Scizor keeps the metagame balanced and above all how a possible ban drastically moves The possible usage data from the mu.
Especially in the building phase.
I do not want a metagame where one loses because of someone who first makes Altaria dance, or where sub Kyurem walla and kills anything.

I will vote NO BAN.

Thx for the attention

Your Step​
 
Hello everyone, I have observed your reasoning and have come to a purely perfonal conclusion




Let's not fool ourselves because Scizor is definitely broken in this metagame
He has excellent skills as a supporter, both as a wallbreaker and as a cleaner / sweeper.
I can assimilate the current suspect like Zygarde's past suspect in OU.
If you notice the reasons why you voted for ban on zygarde was because the teams were full of the Dragon or because there were problems related to the saturation of the building.
In fact, I noticed that the problems are similar.

What would happen in terms of usage in case of ban?

>>>
176229

Altaria will be the therat number 1, definitely broken without a concrete counter that can fully check it.
I foresee a usage (and therefore an increase in rank) by
176244
,
n
. With the help of a teammate wish passer
or
.

A possible sample:
View attachment 177596

Alternative:

>>>

Terrakion with the band is a possible S rank, used in core with Altaria can guarantee kill on Steel or on the same wall (without taking into account Doublade).

//
<<<

I don't see how Moltres could find usage after a Scizor ban, anyway there are better checks for Bisharp like Gligar and I really think they will opt for the second since it can wall both Aggron and Steelix.

<<<

I really think that it will lose its usage, given that it has no recovery and above all because the possible steel tipes resist to stab and I have a movepool such as to revengekill him

In the end
The origin of this study is to make you understand how Scizor keeps the metagame balanced and above all how a possible ban drastically moves The possible usage data from the mu.
Especially in the building phase.
I do not want a metagame where one loses because of someone who first makes Altaria dance, or where sub Kyurem walla and kills anything.

I will vote NO BAN.

Thx for the attention

Your Step​
I think you're missing the point here. If scizor is really the only reason why mega alt is not taking a steaming hot dump on UU then that reflects more on mega alt than it does for scizor being kept. No one is advocating that banning scizor will fix UU on its own, just look at the new meta tourney, it's obvious that people are expecting mega alt to go shortly afterwards and probably also terrak and latias. If your reason for not banning scizor is because it keeps other broken shit in check, then I think you should revise your idea for what UU should be, especially if you have already acknowledged that scizor is broken. It sounds to me that you've given up on UU being balanced and though we only have 6 months left. I think it's very reasonable to try and make this a worthwhile tier especially for the tourneys that will still use gen 7 uu for years to come.

We should defo not just give up and let UU be a cold war where scizor has to be permitted because immediate consequences of banning it would be chaos, I would defo encourage anyone who's anti ban to not take the easy way out and try and see the bigger picture which will doubtless include a lot of subsequent suspects and work from our UU staff (to which I am grateful for having the balls to do this suspect after 3 years tbh).
 

sanguine

friendly fire
is a Tiering Contributor
I got reqs, so I guess I'm obligated to say something, even if I'm a shitty player and an even shittier writer.

Scizor has been the centralizing force in the tier for the better part of three years, and while we've come to a point of relative stability with everything constructed around it, there is a multitude of questions to be asked. Is the cost of having this force here worth it for a "balanced metagame"? At what point does Scizor become intolerable to answer for and play around? Is banning it worth throwing out everything we know to be UU currently so we can have a possibly better metagame? Is Scizor even in the class of the likes of Staraptor, Mega Sableye, and Mega Latias, forces that have proven not broken, but not fun/healthy for the tier? There are too many questions to count, but at the end of the day, I'll be voting ban.

"Why?" You may ask. Simply put, Scizor constrains building almost exclusively into a game of "Have I covered all the sets I need to?" or "Is this team covered enough against this pokemon that will most certainly be on the majority of viable non-stall teams?" As someone who finds teambuilding, more specifically innovation in teambuilding to be a primary facet of their skillset, this paranoia, this need to feel secure in their matchup against this omnipresent spectre is extremely unfun on a personal level. Scizor can bypass would-be countermeasures just because it brought the right set. For example, this SPL replay in which Scizor forces what usually is a hard counter in Quagsire to be stuck in a Recover loop until it dies to a critical hit because it brought the uncommon (but extremely effective in my opinion) Life Orb + Bug Bite combination and wins the game. Now, you can argue this is Pearl's fault that his team didn't have more solid checks to Scizor, but at what point is it Pearl's fault, and at what point is it Scizor simply being too versatile to completely cover while covering other threats? At what point does it become more Scizor being overwhelming than a top 3 UUer on the planet at the moment making a mistake during the teambuilding process when the team covers every other Scizor set well whilst being anti-meta enough to be both popular and capable of winning against other SPL players? This is only the tip of the iceberg, however. Many times throughout the course of the generation, Scizor has been thought to have been narrowed down, only to adapt in a way to force the metagame to readjust, i.e QA when Infernape was a popular offensive check, Z-Superpower during peak Aggron/Steelix usage, Bug Bite for power currently in this soft check metagame. Now, one may argue that this is simply the metagame adapting, but at what point does this game of cat and mouse become too much? Scizor is certainly checkable, it is not without flaw, but at what point does adaptation become unhealthy when Scizor can win games simply by bringing the right set? At what point do we sit back and consider the idea that Scizor's versatility and unpredictability can always give it the advantage psychologically on team preview? Between the 10ish-12ish? different variations of Swords Dance, AV, Choice Scarf, and the ever useful Choice Band, you never can exactly pin down what any one Scizor is unless you have the exact paste in front of you. Now, the checks to different sets do have commonalities, but also all have their own unique nuances that make dealing with individual sets a frustratingly cerebral game, regardless of the viability of the checks involved. Is the effort in pinning Scizor down small enough for you to keep it? Is the effort worth keeping this point of Damocles-esque metagame stability? I assume you've already made up your mind one way or the other, but I ask these questions regardless. In case you haven't and have got/are in the process of getting reqs, I implore you to ponder these ideas over before rushing to a conclusion on it. Think about it, as this is a "now or never" moment for the state of UU.

The next (and hopefully shorter) point I'd like to make is that I'd like to see the fear mongering over possible future suspects come to an end. Losing one check should never move the needle on any individual mon to the point of banworthiness, and if it does, it really says that we shouldn't be keeping these pokemon in the tier. Smogon is built on banning things because they're not healthy, not because they "hold the tier together". Broken things checking broken things is quintessentially counter to the idea of the balanced metagame. Change is good folks, and we have time for plenty of more suspects before Sword and Shield. I personally admire anyone seeking to buck against popular opinion and go and vote ban, as voting ban is a vote that signals "I am willing to drive the tier in a healthier direction, regardless of the future implications". That is the sort of person I want voting in these tests, that is the sort of person I want participating in discussion. Regardless of the results of the vote, and how people vote, however, I want people to be aware that the future doesn't matter in these tests. Tests are all about the now, and how you feel in the now. However way the wind blows you I respect your decision to put in the effort to get reqs and seriously consider the tier's state, and I hope more people will take up this spirit.


I am voting ban, although I respect you if you don't. Scizor has been a dominating force for three years, and the question of whether its too much is something to really contemplate before making a decision. Have a wonderful day :]


proof of reqs
 
Just got my Reqs, and now I´m trying to explain my point of view.

I´ve played UU since the start of SM (with a few breaks) and i have to say, scizor is always a reliable option in teambuilding and ingame it does work most of the time. But i think its not broken in any way. Its stabilizing the Meta like Lando-T in OU.
The Usage of Scizor is high, but not without a reason. BP as priority is always nice to have and a good way to revenge altaria or Aerodactyl. With the capability to use roost as a form of recovery it can be long-lasting.

However there is some counterplay to scizor.
Here some notable Options:

Rotom-h: With WoW and Overheat it can easily kill or criple Scizor.

Moltres: Maybe the best answer to scizor but it needs defog support. With flamebody it can burn scizor on u-turn and make it useless for the rest of the game.

With that being said I will be voting No Ban.
 
I think UU built around scizor and this the main problem.
this suspect test probably should have took place long time ago imo
Now I don’t think scizor comparable to Lando T by any shape way or form
Lando T always was the glue for OU It can stop set up sweepers thanks to the intimidate it’s also good pivot for so many other mons in the ou tier
It’s reliable rock setter
It’s sweeping potential again imo way less threatening than scizor , Lando need to boost its attack and speed to be able to sweep
And scizor only need it’s attack to be boosted most of the times it’s more than enough
Lando doesn't have a reliable recovery while scizor have that as solid option make the Pokemon find a multiple set ups opportunities in UU


Scizor mainly in UU as offensive mon and revenge killer for other Pokémons that you can argue they are “broken” like Mega Altaria and terrakion

Kink said this earlier in his post

I) To create a metagame that is conducive to the more "skilled" player winning over the less "skilled" player a majority of the time.
Scizor reward all type of players even if you are not good enough in this game scizor can win you the game , very easy Pokemon to use and to abuse
Can fit in any team

So yeah I can’t say it’s ban worthy Pokemon
But you also need to take in consideration the all other factors and stop comparing it to Lando T in the OU tier
 
Last edited:
I got reqs, so I guess I'm obligated to say something, even if I'm a shitty player and an even shittier writer.

Scizor has been the centralizing force in the tier for the better part of three years, and while we've come to a point of relative stability with everything constructed around it, there is a multitude of questions to be asked. Is the cost of having this force here worth it for a "balanced metagame"? At what point does Scizor become intolerable to answer for and play around? Is banning it worth throwing out everything we know to be UU currently so we can have a possibly better metagame? Is Scizor even in the class of the likes of Staraptor, Mega Sableye, and Mega Latias, forces that have proven not broken, but not fun/healthy for the tier? There are too many questions to count, but at the end of the day, I'll be voting ban.

"Why?" You may ask. Simply put, Scizor constrains building almost exclusively into a game of "Have I covered all the sets I need to?" or "Is this team covered enough against this pokemon that will most certainly be on the majority of viable non-stall teams?" As someone who finds teambuilding, more specifically innovation in teambuilding to be a primary facet of their skillset, this paranoia, this need to feel secure in their matchup against this omnipresent spectre is extremely unfun on a personal level. Scizor can bypass would-be countermeasures just because it brought the right set. For example, this SPL replay in which Scizor forces what usually is a hard counter in Quagsire to be stuck in a Recover loop until it dies to a critical hit because it brought the uncommon (but extremely effective in my opinion) Life Orb + Bug Bite combination and wins the game. Now, you can argue this is Pearl's fault that his team didn't have more solid checks to Scizor, but at what point is it Pearl's fault, and at what point is it Scizor simply being too versatile to completely cover while covering other threats? At what point does it become more Scizor being overwhelming than a top 3 UUer on the planet at the moment making a mistake during the teambuilding process when the team covers every other Scizor set well whilst being anti-meta enough to be both popular and capable of winning against other SPL players? This is only the tip of the iceberg, however. Many times throughout the course of the generation, Scizor has been thought to have been narrowed down, only to adapt in a way to force the metagame to readjust, i.e QA when Infernape was a popular offensive check, Z-Superpower during peak Aggron/Steelix usage, Bug Bite for power currently in this soft check metagame. Now, one may argue that this is simply the metagame adapting, but at what point does this game of cat and mouse become too much? Scizor is certainly checkable, it is not without flaw, but at what point does adaptation become unhealthy when Scizor can win games simply by bringing the right set? At what point do we sit back and consider the idea that Scizor's versatility and unpredictability can always give it the advantage psychologically on team preview? Between the 10ish-12ish? different variations of Swords Dance, AV, Choice Scarf, and the ever useful Choice Band, you never can exactly pin down what any one Scizor is unless you have the exact paste in front of you. Now, the checks to different sets do have commonalities, but also all have their own unique nuances that make dealing with individual sets a frustratingly cerebral game, regardless of the viability of the checks involved. Is the effort in pinning Scizor down small enough for you to keep it? Is the effort worth keeping this point of Damocles-esque metagame stability? I assume you've already made up your mind one way or the other, but I ask these questions regardless. In case you haven't and have got/are in the process of getting reqs, I implore you to ponder these ideas over before rushing to a conclusion on it. Think about it, as this is a "now or never" moment for the state of UU.

The next (and hopefully shorter) point I'd like to make is that I'd like to see the fear mongering over possible future suspects come to an end. Losing one check should never move the needle on any individual mon to the point of banworthiness, and if it does, it really says that we shouldn't be keeping these pokemon in the tier. Smogon is built on banning things because they're not healthy, not because they "hold the tier together". Broken things checking broken things is quintessentially counter to the idea of the balanced metagame. Change is good folks, and we have time for plenty of more suspects before Sword and Shield. I personally admire anyone seeking to buck against popular opinion and go and vote ban, as voting ban is a vote that signals "I am willing to drive the tier in a healthier direction, regardless of the future implications". That is the sort of person I want voting in these tests, that is the sort of person I want participating in discussion. Regardless of the results of the vote, and how people vote, however, I want people to be aware that the future doesn't matter in these tests. Tests are all about the now, and how you feel in the now. However way the wind blows you I respect your decision to put in the effort to get reqs and seriously consider the tier's state, and I hope more people will take up this spirit.


I am voting ban, although I respect you if you don't. Scizor has been a dominating force for three years, and the question of whether its too much is something to really contemplate before making a decision. Have a wonderful day :]


proof of reqs
what a great explanation.
 

CBU

Banned deucer.
I wasn't initially going to post anything further but omg people need to stop throwing out garbage masked as evidence of scizor's centralizing status. If a pokemon is centralizing the meta, the pokemon that it beats are used less and less if at all. Yet, mega altaria, latias, terrak etc are literally everywhere. This means that the centralized meta(which imo doesn't even exist but the hell of it let's assume it does) is caused by the latter pokemon and not from scizor. In other words, scizor is the solution, NOT THE PROBLEM. Scizor being everywhere is not a point against its place in the UU meta, but against maltaria's/latias'/terrak's etc. Stop twisting facts to fit your hypothesis.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
This post does three things: 1) list reasons why I want to ban Scizor, 2) review why some people don't want to ban Scizor and 3) explain how our reasonings interact with each other. Overall, I am convinced that this Pokemon has too much of an impact on the tier. The most common argument is that the tier may unravel without it - although this has been qualified reasonably by people like CBU.

However, simply put, I completely reject this notion. It is my own personal philosophy, which you do not need to listen to, that one should avoid depending on a single Pokemon to keep a tier stable. This is too much power for one Pokemon.

Why I want to ban Scizor:
  1. Lack of reliable checks and counters
    • We need at least 2 Scizor checks/counters/lures per team because nothing reliably counters. HP Fire Amoonguss for example dies to SD Z-Turn or Life Orb Bug Bite
    • This constrains team building because you need to work around Scizor while also not losing to the many threats in UU
  2. Ability to sweep all archetypes depending on the set
    • Bullet Punch is the only required move and with it, Scizor can sweep basically everything using the other 3 slots. Stall needs Quagsire just slightly chipped for Life Orb Bug Bite to be a problem. Offenses are usually weak to hazards + Quick Attack
    • The ability to always rely on Scizor as a win condition makes the game more stale for me. Basically you can always try and set up SR and double switch to beat its supposedly solid counters like Rotom-H
  3. Overwhelming influence and cheese even for an S rank
    • Altaria, Latias, and Hydreigon all have recently been S rank too. Yet Altaria and Hydreigon have relatively reliable counters in Amoonguss/Mega Steel and Primarina/fairies respectively.
      • Only Latias is comparable in terms of lack of counters, however, it's extremely difficult for it to boost its speed so its revenge killers are consistent, unlike for Quick Attack Scizor.
    • None of these Pokemon can sweep as reliably as Scizor because they lack priority and Scizor's fantastic power after a boost
    • Scizor creates a large amount of cheese (uncompetitiveness) in the tier. This well-known RMT archive team simply acknowledges how common Scizor is and uses Magneton to cheese around it. Many teams randomly run HP Fire - including things as ridiculous as HP Fire on Scizor itself
      • Even Latias, an S rank herself, often finds herself running HP Fire almost purely to lure Scizor as other coverage moves would be almost certainly better

Why some people don't want to ban Scizor:
  1. Concern that UU will unravel as threats Scizor check become broken
    • This relaxes team building because Scizor can act as a glue Pokemon, creating an overall positive effect on the tier.
    • If Scizor is banned, the tier has no time to recover from such a massive impact
      • For example, Altaria-Mega will immediately be suspected because even with Scizor you could reasonably argue its broken (or against it too of course)
  2. Scizor is just another top threat with its own weaknesses
    1. The most obvious weakness is to Fire moves which makes putting HP Fire on many Pokemon like Sceptile and Latias a very real option
    2. It suffers to some degree from four move slot syndrome
      • Only Swords Dance + BP sets are really going to sweep well prepared teams
      • But it needs Superpower and Bug Bite and sometimes even Knock Off to work well versus bulky teams
      • While it also needs Quick Attack to beat many offensive checks. This means it cannot have a good match up versus everything

How do our reasonings interact:
  1. As a matter of philosophy, I disagree with depending on Scizor to balance otherwise arguably broken Pokemon
    • As a matter of practicality, we have time to address the fallout. Altaria will be tested immediately.
      • Considering I and others have been asking for a Scizor suspect for over a year now, I have more exasperation than sympathy for this argument
    • It is true Scizor can make team building easier. But obviously, only if you use it. If you're on the 50-60% of teams that do not use Scizor, then you still have to deal with all the threats that Scizor is keeping in the tier and Scizor itself
  2. In terms of checks and counters and ability to sweep, Scizor really is just another top threat
    • However, the combination of lack of checks and huge sweeping potential make it too strong for the tier
    • None of the other S or A+ ranks have so few checks or so much ability to sweep
      • And when other top threats try to beat their counters, they sacrifice a lot. Hydreigon sacrifices much to run Z Belch or Specs Flash Cannon.
      • Scizor sacrifices minimally to run Quick Attack to beat Rotom and Moltres much more easily. Furthermore, the bulky match up that does get weaker is frequently helped by teammates as Quick Attack Scizor runs best on HO where powerful set up sweepers and wall breakers can be used
 
I haven't been able to get reqs at this moment because I have a night shift now that's been kicking my ass but I'll put in my 5 cents. I figured I'd throw in a NO BAN point of view that isn't just "Dude Sword and Shield is literally like 6 months away" or "Look at all these suspects we have to do" I wanted to make some points of my own, as well as look at some other claims
Lets not hide the facts. Scizor only has 4 moves and it wants to use about 20. There's so many variations on Swords Dance, or SD Scizor because of all the different moves, items, spreads, etc. that it can run. However, I think this is a key point in recognizing Scizor's weakness. Whenever you use say, Quick Attack Scizor, you're losing out on something. Non-Knock Off Scizors can't really handle Doublade. Non-Superpower Scizors struggle with other steels, non Bug-bite Scizors can struggle to mount certain bulky waters and miss KOs on mons it wants to check like Latias and Celebi, non-Quick Attack is always going to be stopped by faster bullet punch resists like fires, electrics, and waters with a move that can KO it or phazing capabilities. I already listed at least 5 moves that SD Scizor really wants to run and that's not even accounting for all it's options. But if you count swords dance itself and the really useful bullet punch, you realize that it's super strapped for moveslots and nearly impossible to take on everything in one Scizor set. This doesn't even factor additional options like roost or U-turn sometimes seen on SD sets. Sure, it sucks if you, the person playing against Scizor, runs into that super specific SD variant that whoops your whole team. You might have the perfect team to be shredded by Knock Off Quick Attack Scizor, but that person running Quick Attack Scizor is probably going to have a shitty game next game if they run into Steelix or Aggron. Now that may just sound like unbalanced matchup fishing, but I can honestly find a tier just as unbalanced if every team is prepared for every mon on the VR. There are often trade-offs you have to make to make your team. Not being prepped for a certain Scizor set is comparable to not being prepped for say, Durant or Barbaracle. You might have something that checks it offhand, but its absolutely not going to be first thing you hyperfocus your team on building around. And its not like it's the only mon in the tier with so many variations on it's sets. Latias and Altaria have arguably just as many. Hell, even some non S-rank mons like Aerodactyl and Hydreigon have a massive slew of varied moves in their arsenal. Is Hydreigon banworthy because of that one time your Altaria got slammed by Z-belch? Is Aerodactyl banworthy because it just happened to have hone claws crunch for your Palossand? Scizor is the same beast in regards to this. I don't expect everyone to be prepped for these variations on Aerodactyl and Hydregion, so what makes Scizor so different? Expecting a builder to be prepped for literally anything is asking too much of them. And it would speak more volumes to the balance tier if there were "unstoppable" teams that could be prepped for every single scenario, even the rarer variations on common sets.


Scizor has the most checks of any pokemon in the tier, this is just a hard fact. Lots of waters, fires, steels, and electrics have some option to fight off Scizor, or at least slow it down. And its not even that hard to fit a number of these mons in conjunction with eachother on a team. I have tons of teams that are just like Rotom-H/Suicune/etc. just as an example, or Aggron/Tentacruel on a team, and so on. Some teams almost seamlessly string multiple checks together and usually not just to check Scizor, I'll make that point right now, more just that there are so many inherent Scizor checks that building a regular team can sometimes stick you with more than one. This isn't to say you HAVE to run multiple checks either. I've gotten away with running one mostly decent, well-played check on many occassions, be it a Rotom-H, a Jellicent, etc. Rarely have I felt like I NEEDED to run multiple checks because I usually stick some of the better ones on my teams. Sure, some softer checks may fail against certain sets, like an Infernape or Sharpedo vs Quick Attack, but that's what makes checks like those soft checks. Saying that every Scizor check should body every set is like saying Gengar is too much because scarf Hydreigon can't handle the substitute set. I've seen a couple notes here and there on how scary it is against offenses, especially with the quick attack variants, but honestly? I don't feel its any more constraining to those teams than say, a Heracross would be to stall. Its something that you can still have a more solid check to, but you're making the decision to have to play more carefully around that set if you don't have that sturdier check and rely on soft checks. Sure, Scizor can be constraining to build around, but not moreso than any other mon in UU I feel.


While Scizor is a great gluemon, I also find it easy to wear down throughout a game. Rocks switchins, rocky helmet, etc. can actually rack up quite quickly with Scizor, roostless variants can already find itself in range of Z-moves to things it's supposedly supposed to check like Latias after just a couple clips, and the roost variants usually sacrifice a couple moves. There was one game on the Scizor ladder where I lost my Rotom-H lategame but was still able to play around my opponent's Scizor with a Krookodile, an Altaria, and a Celebi being the only remainders on my end. (I don't have the replay but I would link it in a heartbeat) I was able to wear down the Scizor and slam it with Celebi's Psych-Z. I found many games where even if my Scizor check was jeopardized, that I could still put it in a position where it struggled to switch in or wear it down that it would be an easy KO even without my check.


TLDR: I think Scizor is a more manageable force than people give it credit for. It does have sets that can worm past common checks but these sets often make sacrifices and aren't as common as some may think, and some of these sets can still be managed by teams that may struggle with those sets if its something the players are worried about. Scizor can also get overwhelmed very quickly if played around well and can still be defeated by teams with softer checks easily. The tier also has a lot of inherent counterplay for it, with many teams running pokemon that they'd run anyway that just happen to matchup well vs Scizor, and many mons geared to fight Scizor specifically still do their job very well.

I'm not sure how well I got my points out but I hope it makes sense and brings forth a decent new look at the no-ban point of view, you're free to disagree and I can certainly see some ban arguments that make sense, but I tried to address some of those in my post as well. I'm looking forward to seeing how things go, ban or not. I'll still be trying for reqs and will vote no ban if I do, but my new night shift has sucked a lot of my energy to do so. Any which way, I've had a lot of fun these last 3 years in UU, and whether Scizor gets banned or not, it's been a good run, little buddy. whether you're dethroned or keep your bullet punching crown, just know I've always believed in you.
 

Rabia

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP & NU Leader
There have been several arguments from the anti-ban side that I cannot wrap my head around as to how they.. work(?) as a defense for keeping Scizor.

"Because yeah scizor does do all of what you say...since 2016. Consequently, either we had a broken pokemon in the tier for 3 years and nobody took notice or we just decided to label useful and necessary as broken"

This is one of the worst offenders, yet it appears many people agree with it. The issue I take with it is that it implies a Pokemon staying in a tier for a long period of time qualifies it as a necessary and fair component. We can very easily look at past suspect tests to refute this though; for instance, look at Zygarde in OU. It had been in the tier for what, 2+ years? Yet the metagame developed in such a way that led to it being viewed in a different light; we saw many set adaptations that led to its presence changing from strong to overbearing, and thus it was banned. We can also look at Slowbro in NU; many people viewed it as a necessary component for teambuilding to handle several of the threats in the tier, such as Passimian and Magmortar, through its multiple sets while others claimed Slowbro's presence restricted development of the metagame greatly and made it unfun to build in (I don't really think fun is something that is worth chasing, and I'm fairly certain people have cited things that say Smogon doesn't particularly care about fun, but since hogg has said you can make your vote with whatever rationale behind it, sure). It's here that I feel a comparable case can be made with Scizor in that it promotes lazy and restrictive teambuilding due to its utility and large quantity of viable sets; as others like pif have stated, teambuilding is incredibly rough given Scizor's plentitude of sets you are forced to try to cover, meaning no matter what you're likely still ill-prepared for Scizor or severely compromising your team to some other threat in the name of Scizor answers.

(note: you can try to claim there is no validity in citing other metagames and their suspect tests, and I will vehemently disagree with you because I see strong parallels. you are entirely entitled to your opinion at the end of the day, but know that I am disagreeing with you from the start.)

"While Sciz-less meta discussion is mostly theoretical, it doesn't take a genius to realise that banning the most effective offensive countermeasure to 3 extremely influential and borderline broken pokemon is likely to push them over the edge. It's pretty damn obvious to everyone else that if Scizor is banned, this creates other balance issues."

This makes me view Scizor as a wet bandage than the glue Pokemon many here have been promoting it as. If Scizor is the biggest reason these three Pokemon are viewed as balanced by seemingly a majority (less so the case around Mega Altaria), then I struggle to see why they are even here to begin with if they are teetering on the edge this badly. I am also against this argument because it is entirely theoretical; you have zero idea to know how the metagame will develop in the future to these threats, and it is therefore just not worthwhile to make part of your argument around a potential future metagame, in my opinion at least. Yeah, the loss of one of the most common checks to a Pokemon is bound to be an improvement, and these Pokemon are already on the brink of being considered overbearing (and in some eyes already are overbearing); however, how is a metagame healthy if it is held solely in the claws of one Pokemon? I fail to see how feeling pressured to slap a Scizor on every team of mine just to stop several offensive threats can be seen as healthy or even 'fun'.

"I feel like I've had a non-neglible number of games where Scizor just kind of hung out in the back while the rest of the party did the heavy lifting. I'm not saying it's bad, that's obviously absurd, it's a great mon, but I feel like its counterplay is defined enough and that I haven't had to bend over backwards and use shitmons to keep opposing Scizors in check."

This implies that every game a Pokemon needs to do something in every game to be considered good. I mean, come on lol. I guess this post does cite that the experience is in the low ladder. If anything, the biggest problem I have with the post is the claim you aren't using shitmons to check Scizor; isn't Magneton quite literally in UU entirely because of Scizor? Haven't we all come to the conclusion that this is an otherwise unviable Pokemon that would drop to RU without Scizor? I guess you could argue this is a case of shitmon and not shitmons, although the case still holds that people have resorted to interesting measures.

This entire post (or at least parts of it): https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-sm-uu-stage-10-2-bug-a-boo.3650487/page-2#post-8139539

I have several things wrong with this and have no idea if I'll finish wording them all before I click the post button, but there are a few in specific I'll point out as, in my eyes, not well thought-out? I don't want to sound like a dick LOL, but some of these points to me are missing something.

The first paragraph pretty much follows what pif said: Scizor has so many sets that preparing for them all on a team is impossible without just making a bad team. I'm not going to really elaborate any further because this point has been run through enough I feel, but yea, I feel this paragraph oversells the ease of building against Scizor.

I take great issue with this whole Terrakion situation that is posed given the opponent is forced to make this same play. Like, I don't see what this proves other than that Pokemon is a game of predicting; this point can really be molded in favor of any potentially broken or unhealthy Pokemon to favor it.

I'm just going to keep pointing out how most of these lures that people are run are otherwise unviable if Scizor is gone; this is where I take my biggest issue with Scizor in that it forces you to run objectively bad overall sets and even unviable Pokemon I guess in Magneton's case. If someone can please point out the utility behind Babiri Berry on Terrakion in a game without Scizor, I am more than willing to listen. But to me, it seems like the metagame has developed in such a way that bad sets become usable entirely because one metagame proponent enables them to be good. Yes, we should expect the top handful of Pokemon to centralize the metagame to a degree, but I do believe there is an argument to be made that Scizor does this to an unacceptable extreme.

This disclaimer at the end also seems a bit untrue to what it really is arguing; you can say that you don't believe Scizor is broken and are therefore not making a case of broken checking broken, but like I've said before, if all of these Pokemon are held in check by solely Scizor, and how you know that future metagames cannot adapt to these new threats I still am not aware of, then I think you're looking at Scizor in the wrong light.

The last point I want to make is about the timing of the suspect test. In all fairness, we have seen Smogon's willingness to go back in time to older tiers to ban out elements later deemed unfair/unhealthy/broken. Is there anything preventing UU higher ups from doing this for USUM UU as well should the need arise? This is more of an open question them then anything because I'm honestly not sure.

I hope this didn't come off as aggressive towards the quoted posts or unnecessarily rude; I have a bad habit of sounding like an asshole when conveying my points at times LOL. Anyhow, I hope y'all's requirements hunting is still going well :] and as a PSA I fucking hate Latias and want it banned regardless of this test's outcome!!!
 

Darksafadao

best of the second options
Hi, I'll probably have no time to try to get reqs but I wanted to give some thoughts on Scizor. It'll have bolded words and images so you can just take a look at those if you want to get my summarized thoughts.

- Scizor is centralizing. I could give a big theorical explanation going from how it's the best mon in the tier and how it's tough to wall or check given its strength, typing bulk and priority, but I'll try to explain it with two examples:
I'll talk about Rotom first instead of both examples at the same time because i think Rotom just illustrates my point like no other Pokemon can right now. Rotom-Heat has 14% usage in 1760's and wouldn't even be UU without Scizor here. Yes, it resists Flying, Defogs, and can abuse Grounds, but none of that would matter without Scizor being here. It only has a place because it's relatively splashable and a Scizor answer. I can't imagine it having a place in a Scizorless meta (even in one with Scizor it took forever for this to be abused) and as of now it gets 13% usage only because it can drain momentum and check Scizor.
Tentacruel has 10% usage as of April stats in 1760's. It spins, uses t-spikes and stuff, but the main reason it's on such high usage is how it can pivot once on Scizor and check it sometimes. If not for that, it'd not have that relevance at all.
Those are the two main examples that come to my mind on representatives of Scizor's centralization. And yes, it affects Latias, Terrakion, and Altaria's usage, but the main effect of its centralization comes to what you partner with those, not on sheer usage of those that lose to Scizor. That said, I don't think personally that centralization insta means it should be banned, but I believe it's a factor and I believe Scizor's centralization is a fact.

- Scizor's answers are easily annoyable. A lot of Scizor answers hate switching into some of its moves (Knock Off for Tenta, Scizor, and Doublade, for example), a lot of them are weak to Rocks, and a lot of them just get U-turned on the face and have to switch right after (which is the most natural thing to use Scizor for). This is just an example with Scizor and rocks alone, with actual support it can pressure the usual answers rather easily. Yes, Scizor can't run everything at once, but it has another factor that involves this that I'll talk about later.

- Scizor can do everything and fit every playstyle. Not a bannable point, but it's a premise that I wanna mention before moving on to the next point. Scizor can use offensive SD (lo or Z), defensive SD, Band, Defog, Scarf, AV, and some other sets. Yes, Scarf and AV are also good. It is also a very reliable pursuiter and great pivot.

- Scizor isn't easy to scout at all. We have many things that can take one hit from Scizor and try to scout its set. However, the right Scizor set or some pressure from a Scizor's teammate can easily overload such mons. That's the reason most teams have two Scizor answers, so that they can feel safer on throwing something at it. However, I don't find this healthy. I think everyone probably has mentioned how it circumvents its checks easily with various sets, but I also wanna bring how it can also just kill what's supposed to be a sponge to scout the set. If you use Amoonguss, you risk being blown by SD z-uturn. If you go with tenta, you risk being Knock'd, same thing with Rotom+being banded superpowered, same thing with Doublade being Knocked, same thing with Cobalion being Superpowered. Scizor can circumvent even Magneton with Scarf or AV. This all boils down to the need of having two answers again and sums up with how hard it is to revenge kill it. I'd say overall this is my main problem with it. This really restricts teambuilding. I know usually the team structure gives an idea of what Scizor is, but it's still very hard to scout analytically.

Something I also wanna point out is that if Scizor is the only thing holding back Altaria, Latias, and Terrakion, those should be testable. That shouldn't really affect this in my opinion. Of course Scizor leaving would make them better, but if that's the only thing holding them back that's not really healthy either. I also think the timing isn't the best for this test because if that's the case it'd take a good while to fix those. I think this last part also comes down to potentially building reliance on how good Scizor is and how easy it is to splash it on teams that we use it to fix many potential building problems, such as being the way to go with dealing with Aero, Altaria, Terrakion, and others, but this reliance shouldn't impact on how the drawbacks of having Scizor here are perceived. I think this is all I wanted to say, I don't really have a settled opinion but I rely for ban if anything for the reasons said above.
 
I got the reqs but...

View attachment 177676

in my opinion, scizor deserves NO BAN, it's a bit annoying if, but without him M-Altaria would have a suspect because it's broken #VoteNoBanScizor :psyduck:
Sorry dude, but if broken is checking broken, neither belong in the tier. Furthermore, if only one Pokemon is keeping MAlt from being broken, does that say more about the check or the checked being a problem?

2am opinion, awaaaaaay
 

Railgun

formerly luisin
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Dedicated Tournament Host
Sorry dude, but if broken is checking broken, neither belong in the tier. Furthermore, if only one Pokemon is keeping MAlt from being broken, does that say more about the check or the checked being a problem?

2am opinion, awaaaaaay
we all know it's broken but there are several mons that are scizor counters / checks like Rotom-H, Quagsire (not bug bite Scizor) and Rotom-H x2 xd better ban Quick Attack + Bullet Punch, its a broken combination.
anyways, without scizor UU would have more suspects, an example would be Altaria and I do not even know what I'm saying, I'm sleepy

2 am opinion rules :blobstop:
 
- Scizor isn't easy to scout at all. We have many things that can take one hit from Scizor and try to scout its set. However, the right Scizor set or some pressure from a Scizor's teammate can easily overload such mons. That's the reason most teams have two Scizor answers, so that they can feel safer on throwing something at it. However, I don't find this healthy. I think everyone probably has mentioned how it circumvents its checks easily with various sets, but I also wanna bring how it can also just kill what's supposed to be a sponge to scout the set. If you use Amoonguss, you risk being blown by SD z-uturn. If you go with tenta, you risk being Knock'd, same thing with Rotom+being banded superpowered, same thing with Doublade being Knocked, same thing with Cobalion being Superpowered. Scizor can circumvent even Magneton with Scarf or AV. This all boils down to the need of having two answers again and sums up with how hard it is to revenge kill it. I'd say overall this is my main problem with it. This really restricts teambuilding. I know usually the team structure gives an idea of what Scizor is, but it's still very hard to scout analytically.
Im very much against the notion that scizor restricts teambuilding. Imo its the opposite. There is no other mon capable of checking Aero, Altaria, latias and terrakion in one slot. If scizor wasnt available, the whole teambuilding process would just be desperately tweaking teams looking for checks to said mons. In fact I have never ever played a tier as easy to build with as SM UU and I hope the tier stays the way it is now forever. I think I have like 30 teams which are all very different from each other. Admittedly, about 70% of them have scizor, but that isnt necessarily a negative thing. I say this because scizor bails me out in the teambuilder all the time. Scizor (and latias) arent mons you usually build a team around, but they are mons that you end up slapping on during some part of the teambuilding process because they check so much stuff and because they have great offensive capabilities. My point is without pokemon like that, I suspect the tier would either become a sweeper-fest where the first one to click a setup move wins, or just alot of really defensive teams, typically sylveon-steelix teams since this is now the only way of dealing with the tiers multitude of threats now that scizor is gone.

And to my second point, I also dont think checking scizor in the teambuilder is difficult at all. There are soooo many offensive checks to scizor. Zeraora, manectric, rotom, infernape, volcanion, starmie, blastoise etc etc u get my point. Even the quick attack variant so many people are complaining about cant get past faster steel types like bisharp, lucario and cobalion (which is very common btw). I have very little experince piloting defensive teams, so I dont know too much about that, but stuff like aggron+amoongus do very well checking pretty much any scizor variant. Because of Stalls passive nature, lo bug bite roost sciz is a huge threat. Ill agree to that. But banning a pokemon because one of its sets do well vs stall is ridiculous. Stall is a playstyle grounded in MU fishing anyway. If you are using stall you are hoping they dont bring that one stallbreaker that 6-0s. I dont see how scizor is any different from any of the other arguably more effective stallbreakers in that regard.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top