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During the previous tier shift, we saw a significant drop to UU: the fall of Mega Sableye.
Mega Sableye is a unique Pokemon, offering tremendous bulk and an excellent defensive typing with only one weakness alongside one of the most coveted abilities in the game: Magic Bounce. This ability, alongside Mega Sableye's considerable bulk, practically guarantees that Sableye will win the hazard war against all but a small handful of niche Stealth Rock or Spikes setters. While many predicted that Mega Sableye would make stall teams overwhelming, in the days it was free on the ladder, it also proved to be an excellent defensive pivot on balance teams that similarly relied on keeping hazards off.
However, in the days it was free, it did not prove to be the all-conquering demon of stall that many had feared. As effective as it was, many stall teams found that the opportunity cost of not running more common megas such as Aggron or Altaria was simply too much. While it was certainly effective at keeping hazards away, it also provided setup opportunities for stallbreakers such as Heracross and Facade Mega Altaria. And it even proved at times to be a double-edged sword for many stall teams: Mega Sableye itself proved to be an effective stallbreaker against non-Altaria stall with Calm Mind sets.
All in all, though, Mega Sableye definitely proved to have a powerful warping effect on the UU metagame, and so in a 11-2 vote, the UU Council agreed to ban Mega Sableye, with the intention to perform a full public test after the laddering portion of UULT concluded. And now, with that concluded, it's time to give it the proper test it deserves!
This suspect test will operate similarly to the Bisharp test. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open and Mega Sableye will be legal in it for the duration of the test. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. The requirements for the suspect will be as follows:
All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "SAB1 (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt SAB1 Hogg to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.
To qualify for voting, your alt must play a minimum of 45 games, and
You must have a minimum GXE of 81.
That's it! You have until Sunday, May 12 at 11:59 PM GMT -4 to meet voting requirements. Feel free to post if you have any questions about the current suspect format. Happy laddering!
Adaam
aim
Amane Misa
Eyan
Hogg
HT
Kink
Pak
Pearl
robjr
Sage
Shiba
TDK
I'm relatively new to competitve, but I'm very good with both ou and uu, and I'd love to vote. But, I don't know what a "fresh alt" is, or what you mean by that format. If you could help me out a little, I'd love that. You can just reply to this comment to help. I also don't know what a GXE is, if you could also tell me that as well. Thanks in advance!
I'm relatively new to competitve, but I'm very good with both ou and uu, and I'd love to vote. But, I don't know what a "fresh alt" is, or what you mean by that format. If you could help me out a little, I'd love that. You can just reply to this comment to help. I also don't know what a GXE is, if you could also tell me that as well. Thanks in advance!
You need to create a new account on Pokémon Showdown with SAB1 before your name (for example SAB1 Darksamurott37). GXE (Glicko X-Act Estimate) is just an estimate of your win chance against an average ladder player.
Make a new alt on PS with the prefix SAB1 and ladder with it. Your ladder ranking that displays when you write /nick will also feature your GXE. Once you’ve played at least 45 games and you have a GXE of at least 81, you can vote.
While not a stall player, I do have some feelings about sableye on balance teams after trying it both before when it first dropped and again now. While it provides unprecedented levels of hazard control on a balance team, and would seem overpowered from this alone, in my opinion it comes at quite a lot of cost to the overall team compared to other options,
It's defensive typing provides very few resistances (just poison resistance with normal/fighting/psychic immunity), putting a lot of pressure on the rest of the defensive pokemon on the team by forcing you to check the same amount of key pokemon as you would normally but with one less of your own. This means you end up inevitably having more core weaknesses to certain breakers than you would have with a different balance team, or forces you to run something closer to semi stall which will have a much worse stall matchup.
It also generally struggles to even take 1x effective physical attacks a lot of the time if the enemy isnt burned unless it EVs more into its defence, which gives it a worse matchup against special attackers, which can be a problem if you miss a willo-wisp and end up getting 2hkoed, especially as you are so slow that you'll nearly always be willo'ing second, which is a massive problem with rockers like krookodile and hippowdon which could actually win if you miss the burn. It's answer to a lot of offensive pokemon being burn them can also be fairly easily taken advantage of by running a cleric on the enemy team, while trading your sableye to burn a key pokemon could be a win con normally, by running a cleric plenty more pokemon become capable of 2hko'ing it after burn and being healed later without caring so much.
It is also a massive momentum suck due to needing to waste a lot of turns recovering, and being easily set up on by scary wall/stallbreakers like guts heracross, nasty plot infernape, nasty plot lucario, reuniclus etc. While it is fairly customisable on its 4th move slot, with options like calm mind, snarl, toxic, night shade, each of these opens up opportunities for other pokemon. Personally of the opinion that toxic is the best option here for balance sableye but pokemon like lucario and reuniclus can still take advantage of this.
Finally in a similar light to the stall cases itt takes up a precious mega slot, which comes with 2 points to this one,
-> Firstly, sableye is heavily reliant on mega'ing to be of any use to you, making it both hard to take advantage of pre-mega prankster most of the time, and also allows the enemy to pressure you with options such as primarina to try and keep you unmega'd, allowing them an opportunity to easily set up hazards through you. This often forces you to try and mega as early as possible and becomes very obvious and easy to deal with via primarina etc, or forces you to run protect in 4th move slot which makes you even more of a momentum suck than before.
-> Secondly, it takes the mega slot away from options such as aerodactyl for pursuit trapping and a moltres/togekiss check, altaria as a defogger + crawdaunt check or a stallbreaker / offensive sweeper, aggron/steelix as bulky steels etc, while actually offering very little to the team itself out of its special defence and magic bounce, and putting more pressure on the team to accomplish these above checks, which are all pretty important to have.
Based on all of this, I'm currently of the opinion that sableye while certainly irritating to teams not prepared for it is not particularly broken on a balance team. However, i'm sure people will disagree with a lot that I have said, and I am still trying to build better and better sableye balance teams atm, and I may well change my opinion after seeing ones capable of rectifying most/all of these issues.
Just going to state my opinion prior to this test from when Sableye was around before, I’m interested to see if it changes as a result of my laddering or seeing what other people have to say over the course of the suspect.
I firmly believe Mega Sableye is not broken as an individual Pokemon within this tier. On first glance you would assume it’ll send stall teams over the edge but this has been so far from my experience with it it’s crazy. I won’t go into huge detail on this specific point here because I wrote an enormous post in the thread announcing the drops about why I think this is (you can read that here). In terms of behaviour throughout the tier as a whole I don’t think it qualifies as broken either. It’s definitely something that will be extremely frustrating if you don’t have an adequate response for it but I feel like a lot of these are naturally forced into teams anyway, mostly by Hydreigon making Fairy types an often used pick on bulky offense / balance. That’s just one example but when I look through the tier and compare as a defensive pokemon how many mons it actually comes into and responds to as opposed to how many threaten it, I don’t think it’s broken in this regard either.
The part I’m unsure on is whether UU improves as a tier by having Mega Sableye in it. I know a lot of people will have the mentality that if it’s not broken in UU there’s no reason it shouldn’t be in UU but it’s definitely part of my thinking when considering suspects is that I wonder if they make the tier more enjoyable to play and/or more diverse. This is only something I’m going to be able to start to get a grasp on by playing more with and against it but right now I really don’t know.
https://pokepast.es/638f860c3d43f80f
This is a Mega Sableye Stall Team I built that I hope can be a reference point for you if you are struggling to find examples of Mega Sableye stall. I attached a Q&A relevant for this suspect test.
How does this team compare to other stalls with Mega Altaria? In other words, how can we characterize the opportunity cost?
There is a significant cost to using Sableye although it also provides significant benefits.
Mega Altaria provides multiple important things for stall: Crawdaunt counter, Haxorus counter, Heal Bell/Defog, potential Block Slowbro counter, mixed/Taunt Hydreigon counter, Terrakion check, Heracross check, Zeraora counter, Bewear check, Latias check and Infernape check/counter. Of course you might nitpick at my list, maybe you think countering Suicune is important for stall or Zeraora isn't important. But for the most part, this is an accurate list.
How does this Mega-Sableye team deal with the lack of Altaria? The Crawdaunt match-up (mu) isn't fantastic, however, Freeze Dry Articuno can obviously switch-in w/o SR and OHKO with Freeze Dry with just a high roll or a tad bit of prior damage. Haxorus mu is pretty awful although there are a lot of Pokemon with Toxic so Haxorus will likely be limited to 1-2 KOs if they don't have Healing Wish or some type of anti-status support. Heal Bell is fit on Articuno which is arguably the best user of Heal Bell because Pressure. Defog is on Mantine plus I have Magic Bounce support which makes it have very stong hazard control. Block Slowbro is countered by Articuno and Sableye itself, which cannot be trapped by weird things like Mean Look Crobat and Gengar (I saw these on the ladder). Most Hydreigon are countered by Articuno plus Taunt has to be careful of Magic Bounce. Terrakion is still checked by Quagsire and Mega Sableye although the mu is far from clearly favorable still because of Z moves. Heracross mu isn't great because an increase in Megahorn but it's not like Altaria was a solid counter as +2 Facade OHKOd if Altaria took 25% SR damage. Bewear is countered by Sableye although I suspect they might run sets to lure Sableye. Latias is still checked by Blissey pretty hard and weak to many Toxics, notably, the Refresh Stored Power set which breaks most stall is totally walled by Sableye. Infernape is countered hard by Mantine.
So what was the difference? I become a lot weaker to Haxorus and Crawdaunt. Despite my exhaustive analysis, I don't see a big difference other than that, in terms of cost.
What about the benefits? Well, as previously mentioned, Sableye gives a much better mu versus hazard stacking for obvious reasons (to be clear, Klefki struggles badly vs Sableye even though it's a Fairy). It counters a few extra Pokemon like Refresh Latias and random Block/Mean Look trappers - although Araquinid is a notable example that Altaria can actually beat and Mega Sableye struggles badly versus. The other mus are marginal at most, Altaria was never a great Heracross counter and neither is Sableye, although Sableye is probably slightly more solid as Megahorn isn't really common yet.
So it's a good stall. Not perfect. Maybe you can build a better one. The lack of Mega Altaria hurts it a bit but you can use creative techniques to make up for the deficiencies, like Freeze Dry Articuno for Crawdaunt and probably Scizor for Haxorus (I don't use Scizor in this team but I'm pretty sure you can create your own Mega-Sableye stall with it). Like all stalls it has weaknesses and like all Megas there are trade offs. I characterize the trade offs as moderate and probably overall benefiting Sableye. But you can come to your own conclusion after being presented with this evidence.
What about Mega Steelix/Aggron trade offs?
Mega Steelix/Aggron provide pretty significant benefits to stall, including: SR, solid Latias check, Togekiss counter/check, Alolan-Muk counter (YES MUK CAN BREAK STALL), Zeraora counter, Gengar check, Sharpedo-Mega check, extreme physical bulk to trade damage from Heracross, Terrakion, and Scizor, Haxorus check/counter, and Crawdaunt very soft check (only for Aggron).
How does the Sableye team deal with the lack of Mega Steel? Blissey provides SR and is arguably an even better setter. Latias is checked by Blissey still although not nearly as solidly because Psyshock. However, Sableye does counter Refresh Latias unlike the Mega Steels. Togekiss is countered by speedy Haze Articuno, even more solidly than Mega Steels. Muk is sort of countered by Sableye although it hates the Posion. Zeraora is countered by Sableye (although not if it was Poisoned by Muk!). Gengar is countered by Mantine, Articuno, Blissey and Sableye. Sharpedo is countered by Alomomola. Heracross has a tough mu vs Sableye, certainly at least as tough as its Mega Steel mu. Scizor is countered by Quagsire and Mantine. Haxorus is a very big problem and has to be hit by one of the many Toxics. Crawdaunt is softly checked by Articuno, not much worse than Aggron, if at all.
So what was the difference? More Haxorus weak. More Muk weak. More Latias weak (except Refresh sets). All bad for the Sableye team. But it's not like any of these instantly 6-0 the Sableye team now.
What about the benefits? A much better mu versus hazard stack. Sableye counters stuff like Bewear, a much stronger (but still desperate) check to Chandelure, strong hazard control in general, ability to evade Block/Mean Look trappers.
Again, compared to other stalls, this team is fine by any reasonable perspective. Not godly. Very competitive. Tough to beat in my hands if you're on a desperate ladder run facing one gemmy boi after another. But obviously beatable still.
Is Mega Sableye Broken?
I don't know; it depends on your personal banning philosophy. Remember Sableye might work on stall, but the stall mu is not the only thing you should look at to understand the metagame.
Under what philosophy could Sableye be considered broken?
I don't know, you figure that out yourself, just don't let anyone tell you your opinion is wrong. If you're good enough to do reqs, you are good enough to have a reasonable opinion.
Alright. I'm going to reserve judgement regarding Mega Sableye's brokenness or lack thereof until I play on the suspect ladder a bit more extensively but I firmly believe this thing has a lot more potential in this tier beyond being one of four Megas that kick ass on Stall. Moreover, this thing has downright beautiful synergy with Scizor since Scizor does such a good job at checking many of Mega Sableye's Fairy-type answers while Mega Sableye can spread status, remove items, check an array of different Special Attackers, and... well, you'll see. So I figured I'd compile some of my thoughts on a couple of sets that this thing can take advantage of in UU.
Note: All IVs can be customized as you deem necessary, shifting investment from one defensive stat to the other depending on what you want Mega Sableye to wall.
Old Reliable - The "Standard" Set
Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect
- Recover
This is the most basic Mega Sableye set ever but it's good at what it does: it walls shit and it cripples shit. Knock Off and Will-O-Wisp cripple a good portion of the tier, Protect can be used to scout as needed, and Recover is mandatory on any competent Mega Sableye set. This is the kind of set you'd expect to see on Stall teams and this is the Mega Sableye set that is seen most frequently on OU Stall. However, it faces some stiff competition as Mega Altaria and the Steels provide very different - and very crucial - benefits that Mega Sableye simply cannot provide. However, in a tier with a lower power level the gremlin potentially has the opportunity to run some more... unconventional... sets.
HOWEVER, there's more to Mega Sableye than meets the eye. Mega Sableye has access to Mean Look, and Mega Sableye obviously has Magic Bounce, which makes it immune to status moves and Taunt as well as bouncing any hazards back at your opponent. This gives Mega Sableye an extremely unique niche as a trapper, and there are only two other viable trappers in the tier in Slowbro and Pyukumuku, which both have their shortcomings: Slowbro is prone to getting nailed by status and is frequently forced to run Rest and it has quite a few somewhat common weaknesses, while Pyukumuku (which is already quite fringe as is) is completely and hopelessly shut down by Taunt although it has access to a pretty nifty combination of Soak+Unaware+Toxic to break through even Steels. Mega Sableye's defensive typing, having only one weakness and boasting three immunities instead of a bevy of resistances, is the icing on the cake that allows this niche to be so incredibly effective.
Trapper Set One: The Stallbreaker (Spite)
Stallbreaker (Sableye-Mega) @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Spite
- Will-O-Wisp
- Mean Look
This was a set used in SPL a while back, though I can't remember who exactly used it or which exact OU SPL it was. This Mega Sableye variant is an absolute bastard for other Stalls to deal with should the Fairy-types that beat Mega Sableye be eliminated. Frequently you can just spam Spite like crazy after nailing an unsuspecting victim with Mean Look and whatever you trap will eventually status itself, get its hazards up for you, etc. I can see a set like this being pretty terrifying when paired with Scizor since Scizor is so splashable and can eliminate Mega Altaria/Togekiss so it has a lot of room to just trap something and give your opponent a massive headache.
Trapping Set 2: The Checkmate (Calm Mind)
Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Mean Look
- Recover
- Shadow Ball
Typically, Mega Sableye is just considered a nuisance that relies on its amazing ability and access to support moves like Knock Off and Will-O-Wisp to cripple an opponent's team over the course of many, many turns. The previous Mean Look set isn't a radical departure from Mega Sableye's typical antics of crippling stuff; this set, however, completely redefines Mega Sableye by turning it into an extremely bulky but extremely dangerous setup sweeper with an ability that drastically limits its counterplay. Beating this Mega Sableye set requires brute force to muscle past its defenses, extremely careful prediction that is in and of itself a dangerous game because of what Mega Sableye's standard sets can do to this one's best checks, or a lucky crit that can throw all your prediction and careful planning and execution down the toilet.
This is a set I personally theorycrafted (though I'm sure someone must've experimented with this beforehand, maybe even in Gen 6), having figured I'd try out in OU several months ago; UU players might recognize this set in particular because this isn't the only potential abuser of a set like this. Block Slowbro has proven itself to be pretty viable in UU in the past and I ended up taking inspiration from BlockBro when building an OU semi-Stall team that centered around this and fat Volcarona, and this thing caught a lot of people off-guard on that tier's ladder even though OU has a decent amount of Fairy STAB flying around courtesy of Magearna and Tapu Lele. If this Mega Sableye manages to trap something that wouldn't mind switching into a standard set expecting a Knock Off or Will-O-Wisp to come out it can win the game outright, as the enormous Defense investment allows it to even eat Mega Altaria's Return/Frustration from full and hit it back and the lack of Special Defense investment is more than made up for should it build up a Calm Mind boost or two. After picking up enough Calm Mind boosts Mega Sableye's Shadow Ball will OHKO or at worst 2HKO almost the entire tier barring things immune to it such as Chesnaught and Blissey as well as Unaware users, none of which can do any meaningful damage to it in return and will eventually be either stalled out or will have their status or hazards turned against them.
Mega Sableye has a handful of other options it could potentially fit onto one of its sets: Pokeisfun's Mega Sableye set in the post above made use of Fake Out and Foul Play. Fake Out generates free turns and gets a bit of guaranteed chip damage off and can be extremely irritating for opponents to deal with should they be hit by another party member's Toxic and Foul Play can take down physically-based wallbreakers should they be unable to OHKO Mega Sableye themselves (that sounds like a nice Haxorus countermeasure, honestly). You could run Toxic on some sets if you want to spread the status (I can honestly see it being usable on Mean Look sets if you really want to break Stall to pieces). Taunt is hard to fit on most sets but you can get some mileage out of it as well.
Overall, I once again can't really say whether or not Mega Sableye is broken or unhealthy just yet. That said, I firmly believe we need to look far beyond its stereotypical uses on Stall teams when evaluating whether or not it should remain in this tier; the Mean Look sets, should they end up becoming popular, are a whole different beast and can fit on Balance and even Bulky Offense as well as Stall and its influence can therefore stretch far beyond being a potential pick over Stall's other viable Megas. If they catch on, you can't really rely on the exact same countermeasures to deal with every single Mega Sableye set because it has means by which it can circumvent those weaknesses. Regardless of whether or not it's broken I firmly believe Mega Sableye is going to be a very strong pick in this metagame, period. Mega Altaria, Primarina, and Togekiss are all good but UU's slightly lower power levels outside of those three make it nearly impossible for Mega Sableye to be anything less than a great pick.
EDIT: I'll provide my opinion on whether or not it's broken relatively soon.
EDIT 2: God damn am I not a fan of how annoying this little shit can be if you're playing HO. Hyper Offense has an extremely hard time getting its hazards up if this thing comes in and I almost want to consider it unhealthy based on this fact alone.
I've gone through 4 or so alts so far but don't worry I'll get it when I stop getting flinched at the absolute worst times possible.
Anyway, I've definitely played enough games so far to deduce an opinion on Mega Sableye that I suppose I'll share. Mind you I've used both a full physically defensive variant, and a full specially defensive variant. These are just a few notes and my overall opinion so far. Anyway, here we go:
(Under some hides because there's a lot to unpack here)
Sableye invalidates every defensive hazard setter in the tier. Now, I know its easy to fall into the trap of "Well, what are bulky hazard setters doing against their appropriate defogger anyway?" Such as Gligar being able to handle Hippowdon with just as much ease as Sableye, for example? Well, one thing of note is that Sableye is far safer than any defogger. Say you have a Gligar and they're using Hippowdon. Hippowdon finds it's way in, and is ready to click stealth rock. There's no reason NOT to switch your Gligar in, after all, Gligar switches into Hippo just as manually as Sableye. But here's where the risk comes in: Do you defog? The answer would normally be yes, but you, as the Gligar player, have to make a judgement call. Say the Hippo player has a specs Primarina in back. You, as the Gligar player, are inviting that specs Primarina in for a free move if you hit that defog. So you U-turn, right? U-turn into Celebi or some other mon that can dispatch the Prim. But what about that Rotom-H in the back of your team? It's going to be hindered by those rocks for the rest of the game if you don't defog. The Hippo player, is forcing a level of interaction between them and you, the Gligar player. They're making you decide what's more important between letting rocks stay up and letting in their terrifying wallbreaker. Now, say you have Sableye. Sableye can manually switch into Hippowdon. They don't even THINK of clicking stealth rock because Sableye punishes them for even attempting. Now of course, the Hippo player can double into their specs Primarina and try to punish Sableye that way, but what does it matter? You can scout out it's move with protect or go right into a solid Prim check anyway. There's no judgement call because there is no chance of Hippo rocking if you manually switch Sableye in on it every time. Sableye completely takes away any interaction between the hazard setter and the team receiving the hazards. There's no risk to hard Sableye on a defensive hazard setter. they can't toxic it, they can't kill it through it's decent bulk, The Hippo from the example is basically worthless in any matchup containing a Sableye unless it has something to check.
Sableye is also really effective as an anti hazard measure because as I nodded to before, it's pretty much safe to say that Sableye can manually switch on nearly every defensive hazard setter in the tier, Hippowdon, Empoleon, Aggron, Swampert, Seismitoad, Gligar, Blissey, Bronzong, Nidoqueen, Palossand, Chesnaught, and Tentacruel are just part of a a "small" list of mons that struggle to get anything going against Sableye. Sableye can even cover a pool of more offensive hazard setters like Steelix, Nidoking, etc. respectively depending on whether it goes physical or specially defensive. But still, the pool of hazard setters it covers at face value is obscene, far more than any defogger in the tier could cover by it's lonesome. Sure, its easy to say a hazard setter will fail against it's worst enemy defoggers, but Sableye covers such a massive pool of hazard setters on it's own that the pool of truly effective hazard setters becomes very limited. I think this is way that Sableye is not beneficial to the tier. It extremely limits hazard play in a tier with many potent hazard setters where effective hazard play can decide games.
Here's where I think people have severely underestimated this mon. Its typing is fantastic for taking hits. Only having a weakness to fairy on something this bulky means most non-fairies are going to struggle to dent it. There's been times where I've casually switched my Sableye in on other megas, with ones like Aero and Sharpedo completely bouncing off physically defensive variants, and others like Blastoise and Sceptile struggling for good hits on specially defensive ones. Other non-mega heavy hitters can also struggle to make any headway against it. Sure, it struggles to wall fairies, but it's fantastic against a lot of other things. Sure, it's not Blissey or Slowbro 2.0, but its not as hard to slot onto a team as one may think. It can easily cover needed defensive roles. It should also be noted that Sableye is pretty much a hard switch in to every passive pokemon in the tier. Riding off of what I touched on in Sableye vs Defog, this thing can't be touched by status, letting it pretty much manually switch in on everything that can't threaten it with raw attack power. There was one game on ladder where I won simply by bullying my opponent's Hippo with Sableye until it was far too crippled to stop my Doublade from cleaning. Its a great scout for status moves, and overall its a fantastic pivot against pretty much anything bulky. Its good at messing with opponent's defensive checks and overall there's little to no risk just throwing it at your opponent's defensive walls. It shrugs off anything they do, and Sableye can pick at their lefties and status them to leave them nice and soft for your wincon. I only had a couple decent wincons on my Sableye team, but even I could see how terrifying this prospect could be with scarier breakers.
Ok so I know Defog and Sableye itself are the master race in terms of anti-hazard measures but is no one really going to draw attention to how Specially defensive Sableye bodies the common UU spinners? Its easily able to take on Blastoise (Something no other spinblocker can currently boast) as well as Tentacruel and still doing well against Starmie as long as it doesn't come in hot in analytic Hydro pump (Which to be fair, making Starmie click hydro everytime over spinning is still a boon.) Tsareena can also punish it if it hard clicks power whip but if it doesn't it's going to get burned and be baby food for Sableye afterword. Straight up walling 2 of the most common spinners and being able to punish the other two if they click anything but the 2HKOing attacking move is far from terrible. I figured I'd just bring this to note since no one else was speaking of it and it shows that Sableye can win hazard wars in more ways than just blocking enemy hazards.
I figure I'll address the big elephant in the room since every good pro-ban post for a mon has the negatives. For one, I think Sableye isnotthe most efficient stall choice. Mainly due to how other megas can better handle some common stall weaknesses. I think this mon shines and honestly becomes terrifying on non-stall bulky builds, like balances or maybe even a bulky offense with it's ability to mess with purely defensive checks to your mons (See: What I said in Defensive Utility.) As well as hazards mattering more in battles between balances and bulky offenses or even mirrors between them. I think people are getting delusions simply because of OU stall using Sableye when they have far better defensive options like Toxapex, when I feel in UU stall it's necessary to have your mega slot donated to a strong defensive mon like Altaria or Aggron that can stop stallbreakers. I don't feel Sableye can fill these shoes well.
Now lets address Sableye's other weakness: Fairies. I feel people have overestimated how well fairies can really do against this mon. For one, some fairies can actually struggle to fight it. Softer hitters like Klefki and Diancie can actually fail to outdamage recover. Klefki especially fails to do so if its hit by will-o-wisp, and it can't even beat a physically defensive variant. Another note is that theSableye player has the advantage when going up against fairies. I mean this in the sense that if you aren't making moves to double your fairy in, then Sableye takes advantage. Every fairy trying to hard switch on an already active Sableye gets their item knocked if they have any, or they can also take status. This can leave your fairy severely hampered, such as a Primarina losing specs due to knock, or an Altaria taking a burn, either crippling it outright or forcing a refresh turn that can be taken advantage of. And even if the fairy hard doubles into Sableye, Sableye can just switch into a fairy check teammate. Sure, fairies threaten Sableye, but its a far different beast from something like Hydreigon that also gets bodied by fairies in the sense that it can punish those fairies that threaten it. If Altaria or Primarina comes in on something like Hydreigon, the fairy player can win the game or at least take a major kill. But if they come in on something like Sableye, the fairy is the one stuck with the hampered attack power. There's no risk to Sableye just clicking a move because most of the time it doesn't matter what something like knock or will-o-wisp hits, it'll be a hindrance to the opponent.
TLDR: I think Sableye is unhealthy for the UU metagame because it is far too "safe" to use. Sableye is difficult to properly punish because of how many things it can manually switch in on vs how many things can threaten it. Sableye simplifies the game state and It feels like the Sableye player constantly has the advantage, controlling the hazard game almost completely, and not really losing anything by coming in on something passive, button clicking to spread status and take items, and switching out whenever it sees a big scary fairy or one of the few things that can brute force it. It's also surprisingly versatile in that it can run different defensive investments and still retain a pretty huge list of what it can and can't handle, making it easier to slot onto teams than it may seem at first glance. I'm not going to say it's outright broken or unmanageable, but it does have an effect on the UU metagame that I think wouldn't steer it in a good direction, hence why I will be voting ban if I can manage reqs.
I got reqs a couple minutes ago. In 45 games I saw 3 Mega Sableye's and I beat all 3. When it first dropped I thought it would be the most broken Pokemon this tier had ever seen but it didn't turn out that way. Mega Sableye is going to do the same thing Hydreigon did when it became S tier, promote a higher usage of Fairy-types which isn't a bad thing. 90% of teams should and usually do have a Fairy-type and there are 7 good Fairy-types to choose from. Mega Sabeleye will also make people more cautious about setting hazards which really isn't bad. Mega Sableye is not a strong or broken Pokemon, it's a nuisance. Simple things like a bulky Steel-type + a cleric deal with it, as well as Z move Infernape and Hydreigon, Moltres, Rotom Heat, Suicune. I don't like the Pokemon by any means but as someone who wants to see this tier go in a good and healthy direction I can't vote ban simply because I do not like the Pokemon. I am going to take an objective stance and say that Mega Sableye doesn't corrupt the tier. If unbanned it will probably get less than 10% usage on ladder. On stall it takes up the place of good megas like Aerodactyl, Steelix, Aggron, and Altaria that are used to check actual threats. Mega Sableye is a nuisance but not an actual threat to the stability of the tier in my opinion. I look forward to reading what everyone else has to say about the matter.
PS If you are looking for a good team to get reqs with try this. I recreated a team Roro used in UUPL and went 24-2 with it. Suicune is the cure to low ladder cheese because A) Suicune is very good and B) Low ladder has nothing for it. Enjoy and happy laddering!
Think I just got recs, but don't know how to check how many games I've played on an alt *eep* I used the stall team pif posted above. I'm not the best player so I don't think I should hold forth too much on how I feel about the mon. It's undoubtedly strong but idk if it is too much for the tier. I'll be paying attention to the arguments made in this thread.
Think I just got recs, but don't know how to check how many games I've played on an alt *eep* I used the stall team pif posted above. I'm not the best player so I don't think I should hold forth too much on how I feel about the mon. It's undoubtedly strong but idk if it is too much for the tier. I'll be paying attention to the arguments made in this thread.
You have played 47 games, with 81.5% GXE, and 1567 elo, and 1782+-50. You qualify. To find this in the future, btw, just put in /rank in any chat, and it will show you your elo, gxe, wins, losses, and total games played in each format.
I've been using exclusively sab teams to ladder getting my reqs (not yet, but im close) and from my experience with it I dont think its all it was made out to be. People were expecting a broken mess, and something nigh uncounterable but it is quite balanced in the tier. It has quite a few grievances, such as its fairy weakness and low HP, but it has a couple fun sets it can play with to fill a couple roles in teams. that said, it is hard to slot sableye into teams because of just how slow it is, and how much momentum it drains. It fits the best into balance and bulky offense, but stall mega sab is good as well. its utility pre-mega is cool too, being able to cripple faster targets before they can react. It has some issues, but it is still a good mon that I personally welcome into the tier, bc fuck spikestack.
I honestly don't remember do council members even need to get reqs? It's been so long since we've done this... anyway I got them to be safe, used a generic kink team and had zero issues with any M-Sableye. The two competent users that I faced had a really hard time with long-term planning due to the constraints Mega Sableye puts on teambuilding. There are many small things I can point to, but it's literally as simple as this for me: interesting sets beat M-Sableye, and those same interesting sets are very viable against common cores/styles in this tier. Which means that the tier can adapt and it'll be a change that promotes even more versatility, and I love that, however, I really dislike what Mega Sableye does to force these interesting sets to come about: a radical change in the "feel" of the metagame, since the same old lovely mons are now going to be doing radically different things in many games, and something else will need to come in to fill that void.
For example, I used a really interesting CM Sylveon Rest Snore Hypervoice set (credits to Killintime) to hard-counter not just Mega Sableye, but a slew of other mons and built the team to support Sylveon's function (that same team got me 41-4 for reqs). This now means that Sylveon cannot use a staple and viable Wish/Tect set and if I need a cleric in that role, I need to turn to other options. Luckily, those options are viable, but the shift in the overall "feel" of UU felt different. Luckily enough, that team faced all kinds of different cores and playstyles and the one other major thing I noticed is that the choice between using Mega Sableye and its spiritual opposite Mega Altaria is a really, really hard one. Especially when we're talking about stall teams and overall role compression. To me, all this says is that "things will change". That's not enough for me to vote ban, and so I stand by my original decision to unban this freaky creepy gem-hoggin hazard-bouncin' gremlin.
Last thing, I've also heard a few people saying they don't necessarily find M-Sableye broken, they simply don't like what it does to UU. I'd like to emphasize a very important tiering philosophy that I also try to live by, despite the fact that thinking in these terms 100% means I tend to have less "fun" in this tier than I think I could have. We don't tier based on things we like. Nor do we tier based on things we dislike. If we dislike how the meta will adapt to it, by virtue of degree of its unbrokenness, that's kind of our problem, isn't it? Food for thought prior to making our final choices.
Last thing, I've also heard a few people saying they don't necessarily find M-Sableye broken, they simply don't like what it does to UU. I'd like to emphasize a very important tiering philosophy that I also try to live by, despite the fact that thinking in these terms 100% means I tend to have less "fun" in this tier than I think I could have. We don't tier based on things we like. Nor do we tier based on things we dislike. If we dislike how the meta will adapt to it, by virtue of degree of its unbrokenness, that's kind of our problem, isn't it? Food for thought prior to making our final choices.
Ty for saying this. We might not even have had a suspect in the first place if the drop hadnt happened during Uult. For the first time in ages, I have started laddering for the sake of getting reqs because I'm curious about the new mon that might have a significant impact on a very stable uu tier. I have played 25 games so far with a balance team featuring mega sab but has never been dominant in these games. Sure it has shined in one or two games during my stay in the lower part of the ladder but that was about it. I admit that there might be new problems arising with new sets and teamcomps but at the moment I see no reason for it to get banned
This team is meme-ish but it works; I went undefeated with it in the first phase of my laddering period. This is a throwback to the infamous SableyeTalon core from back in ORAS OU (which is why I call this team meme-ish) - this team is, in fact, almost identical to a team that was used in ORAS OU. The only differences were Latios > Sylveon and Ferrothorn > Ferroseed. In any case, this is pretty much an example of how you'd want your Mega Sableye balance team to look like: you'd need a cleric, answers to common stallbreakers like Lucario and Infernape, a cleric (preferably a Fairy-type), hazard setters, and a bulky wincon.
This is the team I used in the second phase of my laddering period. This is a team I actually made before the start of UULT, right when Mega Sableye dropped. This team takes advantage of a strong defensive core I innovated, Calm Mind Mega Sableye, Haze + Toxic Mantine, and Defog + Knock Off Scizor. Mega Sableye + Defog Scizor will win the hazard war versus the majority of the teams. With Knock Off, Scizor is able to lure in checks to Mega Sableye like Haze Tentacruel, remove their passive recovery, and ease the sweeping process of Mega Sableye. Mantine takes care of stallbreakers like Lucario, Infernape, and Suicune, that also prevent Mega Sableye from sweeping. As for the last three, I added Blissey because it provided the team with a cleric, I added Doublade because it provided the team with a more reliable Scizor check than Mantine, and lastly, I added Choice Scarf Krookodile because it gave the team some extra speed, as well as Pursuit support and an Electric-immunity.
As for my thoughts on Mega Sableye itself; I found out that the ladder tends to play super passively around it. A lot of the teams I faced had the tools to get up Stealth Rock vs the teams I was using through predictions and offensively pressuring Mega Sableye. Setup sweepers that are already threatening to stall like Infernape and Lucario can potentially set up on Mega Sableye with little to no drawback and potentially sweep Mega Sableye's team, as teams that utilize Mega Sableye would be naturally weak to them. Furthermore, other than helping the slower teams win the hazards war - Mega Sableye does not actually beat any of the existing stallbreakers like Lucario, Infernape, Togekiss, Suicune, and more.
The main downside, I feel, would happen with Mega Sableye in the tier, would be the fall of hazard stacking teams. While some Stealth Rock setters outright beat Mega Sableye, Mega Sableye beats every viable Spikes setter barring Roserade (its best set isn't even Spikes). Klefki is the only Spikes setter that has the potential to beat Mega Sableye, but that's through hax - Mega Sableye will beat Klefki with Will-O-Wisp for Play Rough Klefki and with Calm Mind for Dazzling Gleam Klefki.
I still don't know what would my vote be, but I am leaning towards Unban.
Colbur Berry Azelf was a set that was innovated in ORAS OU to reliably set up Stealth Rock versus Fake Out Mega Sableye. The EVs spread allows it to live a Choice Scarf Scizor's U-turn. Choice Scarf Scizor isn't the most common Pokemon but I still felt like hitting that benchmark. The loss of Focus Sash means that the only Pokemon you won't get up Stealth Rock against would be Mega Beedrill, Choice Scarf Chandelure, and Choice Scarf Gengar, which aren't common and could be forced out with other team members. Regardless, it's better to prepare for Mega Sableye in a Mega Sableye suspect test, right?
Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 104 Def / 156 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Foul Play / Fake Out
This EVs spread lets Mega Sableye take on both physical and special attackers, mainly benchmarking offensive Mega Steelix's Earthquake. On Calm Mind Mega Sableye I would rather just go with max HP and max Defense.
Bisharp @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
Crawdaunt @ Choice Band / Waterium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower / Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Crabhammer
- Aqua Jet
Dark-types and Fairy-types got better with Mega Sableye in the tier. The surge of Fairy-types to handle Mega Sableye is obvious, so how is it possible that Dark-types got better? Basically, slower teams will opt for Mega Sableye as their Mega Evolution of choice - which means no Mega Altaria. These Dark-types have an easier time dealing with the other Fairy-types in the tier that are slow, like Sylveon, Florges, and Diancie, and have a good matchup vs Unaware walls. Also, Chesnaught's usage will drop because of Mega Sableye, which means one less Crawdaunt counter!
Lastly, here's a cool hyper offense that utilizes the Azelf set I posted earlier and two Dark-types:
OK, there is a point I want to bring up. Lots of people are talking about how they are disappointed or underwhelmed with the impact Sableye is making, how it isn't the defensive behemoth they were expecting. But I think that's kind of a misleading way to look at things. Mega Sableye's real impact isn't actually about the stuff it walls 1v1 or beats directly. Instead, it just fundamentally changes what has become a major part of the game: the control of hazards. Obviously other people have brought this up, but it really needs to be reiterated. Sableye restricts hazards in a way that is direct and very difficult to pressure. Sure, something like Gligar or Empoleon Defogs on a major chunk of the tier, but there's often an opportunity cost associated with doing so; smart players can limit this or try to use those turns to their advantage. The fact that Magic Bounce passively prevents hazards without requiring a turn to Spin or Defog means that opportunity just doesn't exist. And sure, we've had other Magic Bounce users around for a long time, but all of them possessed serious flaws that kept them from being anything close to reliable hazard control. Mega Sableye's bulk and recovery just turns all of that on its head.
What that means is that often Mega Sableye's impact has nothing to do with how it performs when it's actually out in the field. Sure, if you're using it as your primary Latias check or whatever it's going to get overwhelmed (though it's actually pretty good as a secondary check to a big swath of the tier). But the fact that it doesn't wall the whole world doesn't mean that it's not giving me a major advantage and completely changing how my opponent plays right from turn 1.
I've played about 30 games on the ladder so far. I waited a few days in hopes of letting the meta adjust a bit to Mega Sab so I could get a better feel for things, and I'll probably do my real suspect laddering this weekend when things are even more established. I ran a pretty straightforward MSab balance, a team I tossed together quickly back when it first dropped. The team is nothing fancy, just your standard Fairy/Dark/Steel defensive core with a couple of breakers and a Scarfer to clean up. In those 30ish games, Sableye has effectively prevented hazards in literally every single game. It completely invalidated passive setters like Hippo and Gligar and Blissey, forced valuable chip on Fairy resists like Empoleon or Tentacruel or Nihilego, and forced offensive setters to constantly attack in hopes of wearing Sab down. It did all that despite often never coming out after evolving on turn one - its presence alone gave me the freedom to play really aggressively with my breakers despite running a pair of rocks weak 'mons. It was effective enough that I'd be confident in running it as close to the sole hazard removal for a lot of teams (the team I used still kept a Scarf defogger in the back pocket for emergency situations, but in ~30 games it only actually had to click Defog once).
I'm not suggesting that MSab is necessarily banworthy just because of this. I'm still undecided on that count, and I probably won't make a final decision until I do some bigger laddering sessions this weekend. But I do think that people who focus too much on how it performs while it's on the field are kind of missing the point.
In this team I paired Sableye with Spikes which is a pretty cool combination since with the support from Sableye, you just have to care about getting up your own hazards, while also being able to stop Tentacruel and Starmie from clicking Rapid Spin. However, it took me a lot of time to find this 6 as a have built a lot of other versions before who never were really convincing, and even this one has a pretty shaky Togekiss match-up, and because of the threat of Latias being burned and thus becoming immuned to toxic, I have to run Sableye without Will-O-Wisp. The problem when you build with Sableye, is that if you run the Will-O-Wisp set, you need a switch-in to Facade Mega Altaria, and there are actually two of them (non mega) : Roost Scizor and Amoonguss, the other potential switc-ins are either very low in the VR or don't have a recovery move. On top of that, Sableye almost only switches on defensive stealth rock setters so you need a lot of defensive support, as Sableye itself isn't enough for fighting types (it actually only has 55% chance beating non-z-steel cobalion) which makes any attempt at building a bulky offense with Sableye pretty challenging. So I think that in more offensive builds, Sableye allows the team to avoid having to remove hazards all the time and instead focus on its own hazards with the tradeback of needing a lot of defensive support. However, it gives stall teams a very strong way of preventing hazards which pretty much makes hazard based strategy against stall teams very limited, if not totally unviable, which reduces the options to beat stall teams. In exchange tho, there are some ways to abuse Sableye's presence in order to sweep stall teams.First, there are mons that can take advantage of the burn caused by Will-O-Wisp. The big one is definitely Facade Mega Altaria, which is really hard to switch into especially if your mega is Sableye, but other mons like CM Latias or CM Slowbro actually gladly let themselves get burned, that way they can't get poisoned by Blissey and can potentially sweep. But Will-O-Wisp isn't the only move you can take advantage of, you can also run Sub Terrakion, and switch it into a Knock Off, then you are at +1 under a sub which can be really difficult for stall teams to deal with. Theses techs aren't much though and Sableye can just change its set to avoid being a setup fodder, so I'm not sure how difficult it will get to break Sableye stall teams.
As a threat by itself I really don't think Sableye is ban worthy, as the CM sets have to hope they won't get crit against fairy types and classic Knock Off Will-O-Wisp sets have a lot of switch-ins like most fairy types, Infernape, Moltres, Slowbro and roost Hydreigon (probably still forgot some of them). So for me the issue seems to be the effect of Sableye on stall teams, but I'm still waiting to see a convincing stall team with Sableye-Mega in it, without being weak to Facade Altaria.
Some people, including me, thought banning Mega Houndoom was preferable to banning Sun because if both were allowed, both were broken, but if only one was banned, the other would be healthy. So I voted to ban Mega Houndoom because I thought it was worth saving Drought, which was arguably more important for the tier. I honestly don't remember why we ended up banning Sun instead.
I also followed this framework for Xurkitree, while Xurkitree might not have been clearly OP (although i think the Z Hypnosis was indeed overpowered), the fact that it nearly invalidated a playstyle made me think it wasn't worth keeping.
I'm going to apply this very basic (possibly problematic) approach to Sableye and say it should be banned, not just because it is completely warping the tier (which is contestable), but it is basically killing entire playstyles that existed before - Spikes offense. Naturally there are places where gaps could exist in my logic (for example, is it really true Spike stacking is dead or are new sets like Z Draining Kiss Froslass viable (that's really a joke as Z Ice Beam would do more anyways). Nevertheless, based on what I know now, not only is Sableye not worth keeping, I think it's presence is extraordinarily obnoxious (by which I mean it exerts a lot of influence without being present as Hogg mentioned), similar to a utility/defensive counterpart to Weavile.
With over one hundred games with sableye under my belt, I can safely say...this mon is honestly really oppressive. As pif has said, it shuts down spikes completely *tho it is a dead meme* and the mon wins vs so many pokemon on its own, not to mention its good place in the dark fairy steel cores it finds itself in. sab forces the use of previously unpopular mons like sylveon and Mega Absol, and it can run moves like fake out to guarantee a mega evolution, making counterleads like primarina not even doing anything of value and exposes an item slot. Even in fairly high ladder *1500's* it functions super effectively with teammates like sylveon and empoleon able to handle sableye checks pretty reliably, and sab supporting moltres a lot and allowing it to stay around for a long time since with proper play you will literally never have to worry about hazards. That is even further solidified if you run a secondary fogger. Sab also shuts down any team running no defogger and instead running a spinner, chipping the enemy super heavily with its own hazards and status. I still am unsure of sabs lasting effects on the meta, but right now im starting to doubt how healthy i thought it to be.
IIRC they did it because of consistency, since UU also banned Drizzle and not the broken Rain abusers (like Kingdra I think). Though if I'm wrong, someone please correct me.
All right i just got finished getting my reqs and will make this post because if i don't i'll get lazy. I've done many suspect test laddering sessions over the years and i'm pretty sure it is the first time i felt the mon undergoing suspect testing wasn't actually being tested. I saw very few mega sableyes, mostly thrown into already known stall/semi-stall cores, basically to take care of rocks for other pokemon in the back like moltres, m-aero and other rock-weaks. It was an annoyance for sure being unable to put up rocks before dropping sableye under 60%, which is mindgames range i'd say. As a result everything i say should be taken extremely lightly, especially considering that outplayable never meant balanced. As an offence oriented player my instinctive reaction was ban because it goes against basically everything i feel this game should be about. And while my opinion hasn't changed (i'm still voting ban), the reasoning behind it underwent severe change. I can stand here and confidently say, sableye is not broken and depending on your breaker and the defence spectrum it invests into, it might not even be a factor. However, what sableye does that makes me draw the line is how better other pokemon are made because of its ability to sponge hazards. Other than that i don't have anything to add because quite honestly my sample size of what the mon is capable of barely exists.
