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I also support Deck Knight's proposal of changing Mega Crucibelle's ability from Magic Guard to Regenerator. It will become a lot riskier for Mega Crucibelle to spam its strongest move and easier to securely revenge kill when it's no longer outright immune to residual damage. It also enables Mega Crucibelle to retain many of its unique traits, overall identity, and a pretty good level of viability while opening up more avenues for reliable counter-play.
Assuming we remove Head Smash, Regenerator would be better than Magic Guard in most circumstances. With Magic Guard, the damage Cruci does manage to acrue at least sticks around, but with Regenerator combined with Cruci's speed and bulk, not even direct damage would stick around for long even with factoring in hazard damage.
Another potential nerf I considered was replacing U-Turn with Volt Switch. Coming off its notably worse Special Attack stat (especially when a stat dropping nature and lack of investment is accounted for), it can't freely chip checks/counters with its pivoting tool to the same efficiency that it once could. Even better, it can no longer mindlessly pivot in and out of battle when the opponent has a Ground-type, lest it risk sinking a significant amount of momentum. On the other hand, it does a fair bit more damage to a few checks (such as Argonaught, Celesteela, Kitsunoh, Mawile, Mega Aggron, and Revenankh) and alleviates it from making contact with users of Rocky Helmet and/or Rough Skin/Iron Barbs. However, the downsides of Volt Switch over U-Turn at least make this avenue worth considering.
Now this is what I really wanted to talk about. I think this is a very interesting idea that I haven't seen mentioned before now. I'm not really pro or anti volt switch right now, but I'd love to see some discussion and have a couple things about the idea I'd like to mention. When it comes to damage, volt switch may be able to do more than U Turn in some matchups, but it doesn't do more damage to anything than what Stone Edge, Head Smash, or Gunk Shot would do. I think what The Idealistic mentioned about Volt Switch requiring the user to think rather than mindlessly pivot is the main draw of this idea. If the opponent has an electric immunity on their team, the Crucibelle player has to risk losing a lot of momentum by either Volt Switching into a Ground type or by hard switching into the wrong Pokemon.
While I think the aspect of nerfing Belle via Volt Switch is definitely interesting, I consider it's plausibility in terms of a flavor aspect? Can we really justify the move the same way we can justify U-turn by virtue of Belle's concept as a mon?
Even after all of this discussion, I have to admit that I'm currently not completely sure on what is the best course of action. Currently I'm in favor of Removing Head Smash and lowering speed to 108, although I think that removing Magic Guard in addition to the same speed drop has a lot of merit too. Head Smash has always been Mega Crucibelle's biggest selling point, and its the main reason why it is so hard to switch into, as even Pokemon that resist it tend to take massive damage. As snake_rattler said, simply removing it would lower its power ceiling dramatically, making it much more manageable. However, I'm not completely sure that simply removing Head Smash would be enough, as Mega Crucibelle would still be the undisputed best offensive pivot in the metagame, and it would still be really hard to punish it for just using U-turn. For this reason I think that a slight reduction in speed would still be needed. This way we can make Kartana, Mega Latios and Mega Diancie into more reliable checks.
I'd also like to give my thoughts on some of the other proposals:
Removing Magic Guard: As I said, this is most definitely my second choice, as by removing it, Head Smash recoil would become a huge problem, and without being immune to residual damage, Mega Crucibelle's effective bulk would be greatly reduced. However, despite the fact that it can only be used a few times before KOing yourself, switching into Mega Crucibelle would still be just as hard during early game, and the recoil can still be slightly mitigated by not Mega Evolving to abuse Regenerator, which makes me think this is not as efficient as removing Head Smash.
That being said, if this option were to be picked, I think that it should be replaced by a niche ability, and definitely not by Rock Head nor Regenerator. Rock Head seems to me like an ability that tries to reach a compromise between removing Head Smash and simply removing Magic Guard, but in the end, I think it will satisfy no one, as it will still be just as hard to switch into Mega Crucibelle as it has always been, and it will still be very hard hard to wear down thanks to its access to base form Regenerator. Regenerator is even worse, that ability is so good that Crucibelle usually stays in its otherwise lackluster base form in order to abuse it. If Mega Crucibelle were to receive such a powerful ability, I'm not even sure if it would be a nerf, because it would make it even harder to wear down, and while Head Smash would be harder to spam, Regenerator would stil be able to somewhat compensate for its recoil.
Lowering speed to 104: I think if other smaller nerfs were applied this would have more merit, but if we remove Head Smash or Magic Guard that is already a big downgrade, so I think that making Mega Crucibelle outspeeded by Krilowatt and Mega Pinsir would be just overkill.
Removing U-turn: U-turn is definitely one of Mega Crucibelle's greatest assets. However, I think that Magic Guard is really what pushes it over the edge due to removing so I would much more rather remove that ability first. I also don't see the point in changing U-turn for Volt Switch. The main reason why U-turn is good is because it keeps momentum, the damage done is always just a small bonus. Sure, this means that you can't pivot out of Ground-types, but most of them like Landorus-T and Colossoil already have problems taking repeated hits. Additionally, in some matchups like Arghonaut and Kitsunoh, Volt Switch does more damage than U-turn. Just like Rock Head, this tries to reach a compromise that will likely satisfy no one in the end.
Removing Low Kick/Wood Hammer: While they allow Mega Crucibelle to beat counters like Ferrothorn and Hippowdon, these moves are already rarely seen, as simply using U-turn is just more effective, and I don't see that changing after this nerf to be honest. The only way in which I could see these being removed would be if we also removed U-turn, which is the main reason why these are not more used.
All I have to say is that I do not have much of an opinion as to HOW we should reach our result. All I feel is that we should preserve Mega Crucibelle's viability as much as we can. Seeing it drop down a lot would just be sad. The higher viability it remains while not being broken, the better.
Another thing on top of that: Undershooting is arguably better then Overshooting. If we undershoot, ok, sure, its a pain, but the thing is, we can just nerf it again/differently. But if we Overshoot? Sure, we COULD buff it a bit back up again, but lets be honest, we wouldn't do that. It would be nice to get it on the first try, but we dont necessarily NEED too.
I strongly disagree with this. While we definitely shouldn't try to nerf Crucibelle too much, the main objective of this process is to balance the metagame, and if in the process we have to tank Mega Crucibelle's viability, then it will still be worth it. We should never have to revisit this same topic in a month because we were too soft.
I also support Deck Knight's proposal of changing Mega Crucibelle's ability from Magic Guard to Regenerator. It will become a lot riskier for Mega Crucibelle to spam its strongest move and easier to securely revenge kill when it's no longer outright immune to residual damage. It also enables Mega Crucibelle to retain many of its unique traits, overall identity, and a pretty good level of viability while opening up more avenues for reliable counter-play.
Changing Magic Guard to Regenerator is debatably a buff to be honest, especially if Head Smash is removed (which I support). Head Smash is the problematic element of Mega Crucibelle, so just trying to change another aspect without removing the disease means that Crucibelle would still be able to completely break a large amount of things that it shouldn't, even if it gets close to death in the meantime, but it now can heal off any damage it accrues by pivoting out with U-turn, rendering the change much less useful in a lot of different situations. Its even worse if Crucibelle does have Head Smash removed, as it is not healing off its own damage, but instead damage done to it, resulting in a Pokemon that is already very fast and very bulky now having the means of recovery for certain checks to just stop checking it entirely and making it so much harder to kill, even if it now takes hazard damage and Leech Seed drain.
Another potential nerf I considered was replacing U-Turn with Volt Switch. Coming off its notably worse Special Attack stat (especially when a stat dropping nature and lack of investment is accounted for), it can't freely chip checks/counters with its pivoting tool to the same efficiency that it once could. Even better, it can no longer mindlessly pivot in and out of battle when the opponent has a Ground-type, lest it risk sinking a significant amount of momentum. On the other hand, it does a fair bit more damage to a few checks (such as Argonaught, Celesteela, Kitsunoh, Mawile, Mega Aggron, and Revenankh) and alleviates it from making contact with users of Rocky Helmet and/or Rough Skin/Iron Barbs. However, the downsides of Volt Switch over U-Turn at least make this avenue worth considering.
Aside from the fact that this makes no sense flavorfully, I disagree with the statement that U-turn allows Mega Crucibelle to "mindlessly pivot" out on Ground-types. Landorus-T, currently the highest ranked Ground-type in VR right now, is commonly know to run a Choice Scarf quite often, meaning that a Mega Crucibelle foolishly trying to U-turn out of battle is risking getting nailed by an Earthquake. But its mostly the flavor that I think makes this both uneccesary and dumb. Head Smash is the issue here, removing Mega Crucibelle's ability to pivot seems to be a nerf just to nerf.
I'd just like to post again to emphasis a point made by MXMTS. We should definitely be in favor of going harder than softer as to hopefully never revisit crucibelle again. It would make a mockery of the process if we had to continuously do this. Personally, I think the viable option would be removing head smash and coil. I feel like removing anything else would be too damaging to the pivot character that is crucibelle. Simply put, tarnishing its image, whether the council is independent of the moderation team or not, would be a disgrace to the process. Said image revolves around u turn and taking no damage despite hazards being up. So the safest way to deal with it, would be making it solely a pivot and removing the giant 150 base power stab move. The spdef could also be dealt with if the council see that as necessary, but i dont see a personal reason for touching speed. You still want the mon to be good, its caps only mega, and will probably forever be the only mega. Having a CAP mega that isnt viable is quite silly, and it should not go too close to its base form for that reason.
Korski's post wasn't actually very stat heavy, though I suppose it doesn't matter because it's centered around Gen 6 threats. Nonetheless, since Mega Evolution is intrinsically part of Crucibelle and its movepool is therefore linked, I think the "nerf harder than necessary" should be limited to elements mostly impacting the actual problem, Mega Crucibelle.
With that in mind, Removing Head Smash (the most obvious breaking element that enables the rest of its traits) and reducing Mega stats does seem like the most effective and appropriate overall option. I suggest removal of Head Smash, reduction of Speed to 109 (-5pts), and reduction of SpD to 120 (-5pts).
At 109 Speed, Kartana is a coin flip to U-turn out of but with Head Smash removed it is at no threat of being 2HKOd, even after a U-turn pivot. Mega Crucibelle should still be in a strong speed tier as to not suddenly lose or tie to Keldeo and friends, it is still CAP's only Mega and being pressured by Base 110's should be more than sufficient. The 5 pt reduction in Special Defense is somewhat aesthetic, but it also diminishes Mega-Crucibelle's ability to tank special hits. The calculations this currently makes a difference for is Mega-Alakazam's Psychic and Volkraken's Hydro Pump, which become guaranteed OHKOs after SR, Keldeo's Hydro Pump, which would KO 18.8% of the time instead of never, Mega Latios's Psychic which moves from a 50% chance to KO after SR to a 68.8% chance, [still won't OHKO from full] and Max SpA Tapu Koko's Thunderbolt (Gigavolt Havoc), which can now 2HKO (OHKO) nearly always after Stealth Rock. After U-turn chip and SR these will be guaranteed 2HKO/OHKO respectively. There may be other marginal calculations, but M-Cruci gets hit a lot in the 55-90% range.
Note: I am using SR Calcs because regular Cruci takes SR damage on the initial switchin before Mega Evolution. I am assuming Magic Guard is retained. These changes will effectively pressure Cruci to Mega earlier because of the final reduced bulk, but it's realistic to assume if base Cruci pivots around a lot that it will take exactly one round of Rocks damage.
Alakazam-Mega:
Old Calc: 252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega: 306-360 (86.4 - 101.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
New Calc: 252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega: 314-372 (88.7 - 105%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Volkraken:
Old Calc: 252 SpA Volkraken Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega: 306-362 (86.4 - 102.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
New Calc: 252 SpA Volkraken Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega: 318-374 (89.8 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Keldeo:
Old Calc: 252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega: 296-350 (83.6 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
New Calc: 252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega: 306-362 (86.4 - 102.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Tapu Koko:
0- Atk Tapu Koko U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crucibelle-Mega: 32-38 (9 - 10.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Stealth Rock
Old Calc: 252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega in Electric Terrain: 148-175 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega in Electric Terrain: 286-337 (80.7 - 95.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
New Calc: 252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega in Electric Terrain: 153-181 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega in Electric Terrain: 295-348 (83.3 - 98.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Latios-Mega:
Old Calc: 252 SpA Latios-Mega Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega: 284-336 (80.2 - 94.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
New Calc: 252 SpA Latios-Mega Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega: 294-348 (83 - 98.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
While I know aesthetics are a secondary concern, this also reduces the Mega Boost to exactly 90, which does have precedence (Mega Alakazam). It also addresses the most powerful aspects of Mega Crucibelle without touching Base Crucibelle much. Losing Head Smash for Base Cruci is unavoidable to balance Mega Cruci, but I think this stat rebalance takes the appropriate approach to making the Mega Boost still incredible, but not over the top ridiculous.
A summary of matchups these changes would apply to:
Added Offensive Checks:
Latias (Mega)
Latios (Mega)
Diancie-Mega (Outspeed and OHKO with Earth Power)
Kitsunoh
Kartana (Speed tie even if Scarf is knocked off)
Improved Offensive Checks:
Alakazam-Mega (OHKOs after Rocks)
Volkraken (OHKOs after Rocks)
Keldeo (better OHKO range)
I'm certainly not involved enough in CAP to have an opinion on what to do about Mega Crucibelle, but since this is the second time I've seen this I want to quickly note that while Mega Alakazam had an only +90 BST Mega increase in Gen 6, Mega Alakazam got a +10 Special Defense buff in Gen 7 to bring its Mega BST increase up to the standard +100.
Since we need to move the stats to maintain the +100, I just reccomend we move any stat points that occured from nerfs to Special Attack, since its a stat it really doesn't need.
Aside from the fact that some of his checks he presents are not at all relevant (Espeon lol), I otherwise agree with the stat changes Deck Knight presents. A nerf to speed makes the problem of "mindless U-turning" much easier to deal with since it now has to hard switch out of stuff like Pajantom, Latis, and Kitsunoh unless it wants to be KO'd, plus tying with Kartana makes it a much more reliable check. While it doesn't neccesarily help too much (106/120 is still really bulky), it allows special attackers to better punch through the pothead. I can live without it if it is seen as a pointless nerf (which it 80% is) but every little bit helps.
The problem that Mega-crucibelle presents to the metagame is a combination problem, and an understanding of that makes it clearer what the viable options for nerfing it are. I will first present the problem and possibilities, then my own conclusions.
Mega-crucibelle is quite fast and, with recoilless Head Smash, is immensely powerful as well. Even worse, through U-turn and Magic Guard, it can pay very little price for being successfully switched in on, and it has very few counters, as supposed to checks which can switch in once safely and then, thanks to 150 BP STAB, never again. Simplified, the problem it presents for the metagame is too much reward at too little cost.
To stop Mega-Crucibelle from dominating the metagame, it is necessary to break down this combination of powers, which sets it above other hard-hitting pokemon, either through strength or safety. What we choose to break it down into is a real choice, and any such choice is possible, some with more complicated or wide-ranging nerfs than others.
We can choose to keep the power, and increase the cost of switching in by any subset of removing speed, special defense, or magic guard. We can also decrease its safety by removing U-turn. We can choose to keep the flexibility and jettison the power by removing Head Smash. In either case we can solidify its checks' statuses by removing coverage. We can do any combination of the above.
The second portion of this decision is about our goals. What defines Mega-Crucibelle, and what changes are in themselves more or less desirable? For example, we can all agree that changes to its type are completely off-limits. This is because of the concept; but the concept goes not much further. One factor some value (I value it, for example) is similarity of how it plays now and how it will play afterwards. Another factor some value is not changing too many different random things, instead leaning toward shorter solutions. Below I present a few possible sets of changes I want to suggest, the reasoning behind why they would be sufficient as a nerf, and what results they would produce for Mega-Crucibelle.
Option 1: Simplicity Change Magic Guard to Anticipation
Magic Guard does a lot of things for Mega-Crucibelle. It allows for recoilless Head Smash, as well as allowing it to switch in on hazards constantly. Removing it and replacing it with a dummy ability drastically reduces the viability of running Head Smash, especially in conjunction with its ideal role as a pivot. This one change would be a sufficient nerf, as it tackles both the damage and safety aspects of Mega-Crucibelle's strength. Insofar as a minimal change is desired, this is the option I suggest.
Option 2: Uniqueness Remove Head Smash, reduce Speed to 108
I was initially skeptical of this change, but someone on Discord pointed out that many other Mega-evolutions come with a massive amount of power, so Mega-Crucibelle can be unique through being an amazing pivot. This change deals with the overwhelming power of Mega-Crucibelle, and gives it a niche in its strong safety through hazards, U-turn, and still quite decent power. Snake_rattler's very good post touches on how this is already a niche Mega-Crucibelle fills. The speed reduction is to allow it a few more offensive checks just as the reduction in power gives it more defensive checks.
Option 3: Continuity Change Magic Guard to Rock Head, reduce Speed to 108, reduce Special Defense to 115, remove Low Kick and possibly U-turn
This change works to keep Crucibelle-Mega's place in the metagame constant, while reducing its incidental strength enough to fit in power-wise. With these stat nerfs, it has many offensive checks, and with the removal of Magic Guard, it can no longer constantly switch in and out against defensive teams, because of Hazards. With the removal of U-turn, the risk of bringing it in goes up by a lot. The speed nerfs really add a lot of Pokemon which can come in and gain momentum through forcing it out, and this becomes an actual cost without Magic Guard. The nice (depending on viewpoint) thing about this set of nerfs is it still allows Mega-Crucibelle to continue to use its trademark recoilless head smash. The not-so-nice thing is that in order to keep that, it needs to nerf many separate aspects of the Pokemon's design.
I currently prefer Option 1 over Option 2 over Option 3, but that changes on an hourly basis. What doesn't change is the above justifications for those options.
Mega Crucibelle is currently as successful as it is due to its ability to apply heavy pressure to offensive and defensive teams alike. A lot of stuff has been said about Crucibelle in this thread - but I am of the opinion that almost all of Mega Crucibelle's problematic points can be boiled down to Magic Guard. Cruci can fire off nuke level Head Smashes thanks to Magic Guard making it risk free. Crucibelle is hard to wear down because it takes no chip damage from indirect damage thanks to Magic Guard. These traits are what truly makes Mega Crucibelle oppressive. Getting rid of Head Smash is only applying a band-aid to the situation. Magic Guard to me is the #1 priority we should be looking at. Stats are also a bit of issue, but less so. I think the best nerfs to go with are
1. Remove Magic Guard
2. Drop Mega Crucibelle's speed to under 110 (109-105 is acceptable)
3. Drop a small amount of Special defense, enough to ensure that Mega Alakazam and Volkraken can OHKO after rocks with their appropriate STAB moves.
I have not played any CAP games in a while, so feel free to take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. That being said, when I viewed this thread and watched the replays in the OP, what struck me is how few of the proposed changes would have directly effected either battle. It only used Head Smash once between the two battles, small speed nerfs largely would not have had any effect, and much of the damage it did was either done as base form Cruci, or with Gunk Shot and utility moves. Now, this is not to say that these things are the real issue. Rather, what I think it says is that it is the threat of things like recoilless Head Smash that was what altered those battles, not the actual use thereof. Specifically the fear that it could use things like that make it super good at pivoting out with U-Turn. The pivoting with U-Turn was by far the thing that effected those battles the most.
With that in mind, I personally think the key thing we should be looking at what makes that pivoting so easy, and how to nerf it without nerfing base Cruci. This is all about the Mega, so altering movepool is a bad idea to me, as it would hurt a non broken Pokemon as well. As such, going after U-Turn directly is a poor idea. Instead we should be going after what makes it so good at forcing things out. In my mind that thing is recoilless Head Smash.
Head Smash in and off itself is not an issue. Yeah, it would still force switches and set up pivoting, but a poor predict would not be nearly as deadly, if Cruci loses half its health in the process. Furthermore, and attempt to take on the recoilless nature of Head Smash means taking on Magic Guard, and that inherently means that any such change would also leave it vulnerable to hazards. This makes it far easier to wear down and defeat. For this reason, my preferred method of nerfing would be to replace Magic Guard with a weaker ability.
As a small side note though, regardless of what path is taken, it is crucial to remember that Mega Crucibelle is, in fact, a mega Pokemon. It's balance is not, and should not, be done the same way as normal Pokemon. I feel that messing with its combination of power and speed directly, rather than simply limiting how much those can do for it risks eliminating the incentive to use it at all over other mega pokemon. Maybe that risk is not huge, but it's not a risk I'd prefer to take if we have alternative methods.
The council has met and made a decision. This post will outline what our decision was, how we can do that decision, and why. I know that people are most interested in the decision itself, so, now, I present nerfed Mega Crucibelle:
Mega Crucibelle
Ability: Magic Guard
Stats: 106 HP / 135 Atk / 75 Def / 91 SpA / 125 SpD / 108 Spe | BST: 640 (shifted 6 Speed to Special Attack)
Movepool Removals: Head Smash, Low Kick
Summary of nerfs:
- Removal of Head Smash and Low Kick
- Crucibellite will now confer these stats: +30 Atk / +10 Def / +16 SpA / +40 SpD / +4 Spe
Now, I'd like to go through how we came to those nerfs. Before I begin, the council was primarily concerned about two criteria:
1) Addressing the root problem of Mega Crucibelle's brokenness
2) The necessity of the nerfs
For this discussion, we discussed nerfs in order of importance and voted on each topic before moving on to the next. A simple majority was required for any given topic. Unfortunately, Jordy was unable to show up for our discussion due to a scheduling conflict, but he made his opinions clear beforehand, and we worked from those. Had the council voted 2-2 on ANY topic, we would have rescheduled. Luckily, this time we didn't so we can get our final decision to you without too much of a delay.
Below is a transcript of our discussion with needless banter removed.
[7:59 PM]snake_rattler:
Based on the thread, I came up with a very basic question. Do we all agree that recoilless Head Smash is the problem?
[/SIZE]8:00 PM]Mx:[/SIZE]
yes, but not the only one, I think that the fact that Cruci is the best pivot and the best mega are problems too
I think that both its pivoting and wallbreaking abilities are problematic, but out of the two, Head Smash is the biggest issue
[8:05 PM]Jho:
my idea is that its the combination of being the best wallbreaker and best pivot that make it oppressive
and making it worse in one of either of these gives opportunity cost to running it
and makes other megas more viable
[8:07 PM]SHSP:
i’m in agreement
smash is the #1 problem
i feel like the reason its so good as a pivot is because it can hit so hard
when you have like 1 switchin per team you can uturn really easily and not need to worry
[8:09 PM]snake_rattler:
personally i think it's the almost root problem to all of this, but the way we address it is how we can proceed in an orderly fashion
Here's the thing, I think if someone were to do the thing five-year-olds do and ask "why is crucibelle broken" -> "why" x 100 you eventually get down to recoilless head smash
but then if you go one more time, we reach a dilemma...
With these thoughts in mind, I wanted to begin this discussion around the idea of recoilless Head Smash, which led to my second question:
[8:10 PM]snake_rattler:
What is the root cause of the problem: Head Smash itself or Magic Guard? Do we want to remove Head Smash, Magic Guard, both?
[8:10 PM]Jho:
of the 2 head smash
[8:10 PM]snake_rattler:
i'm in the opinion of head smash
i think it's the most direct way to solve the problem
well, the bulk of it anyway
[8:11 PM]Jho:
i dont think thats the only thing to remove tho
[8:11 PM]SHSP:
i think smash is the bigger offender but im not 100% sure we shouldn’t look at MG, in tandem or seperate
[8:11 PM]Mx:
Head Smash, Magic Guard is only broken if you can abuse it as much as Crucibelle does
[8:11 PM]Jho:
if you remove head smash it becomes a dedicated pivot
which MG helps with a lot
if its a pivot that cant hit hard and is weak to hazards
it gets really bad
[8:12 PM]snake_rattler:
right, i agree with that
this is the biggest question we have to face honestly
like offler mentioned
are we going to attack its power or pivoting
i think it's better to attack its power because having the niche of a pivot definitely separates it from other megas
[8:13 PM]Jho:
yes
[8:13 PM]Mx:
yes too
[8:13 PM]Jho:
attacking pivoting makes it compete with maw and medi
which is just interesting
pivoting is a niche no other mega really fills
so i like it
[8:13 PM]snake_rattler:
i also think it fits its identity / concept
making use of its unique resistance set
only heatran shares that combination of fire / flying / fairy resist
[8:14 PM]Jho:
yeah its a good resist set
[8:14 PM]snake_rattler:
Ok so we definitely think Head Smash should be dealt with first
After this discussion, we had our first vote.
[8:15 PM]snake_rattler:
Alright, vote "Yes" if removing Head Smash, "No" if not
[8:15 PM]SHSP:
yes
[8:15 PM]Mx:
yes
[8:15 PM]Jho:
yes
[8:15 PM]snake_rattler:
Yes
[8:15 PM]snake_rattler:
ik Jordy supported -Head Smash
With that, we unanimously removed Head Smash from Mega Crucibelle, in favor of opening up defensive counterplay and focusing on Mega Crucibelle's pivoting capabilities.Next, I wanted to look at Mega Crucibelle's next best atributes.
[8:16 PM]snake_rattler:
Let's look at Magic Guard
now in the context that Mega Crucibelle DOES NOT have access to Head Smash anymore
I suppose I can also ask
Now, is Mega Crucibelle’s access to U-turn an issue?
I wanted to see what the council thought of Mega Crucibelle's biggest assets to its role as a pivot.
[8:17 PM]Jho:
not now that it doesnt have headsmash
[8:17 PM]Mx:
not really once Head Smash is gone
[8:18 PM]snake_rattler:
For both U-turn and MG?
[8:18 PM]Jho:
yes
i am extremely for keeping MG without smash
[8:18 PM]Mx:
I think removing them both would be overkill too
[8:19 PM]SHSP:
i mean what does mg do now
[8:19 PM]snake_rattler:
null hazards and leech seed
and contact recoil
[8:19 PM]Jho:
hazards is the main thing with us promoting it being a pivot
[8:19 PM]SHSP:
hazards are the only notable thing
and if we wanna go pivoting
that’s a very good tool to have
[8:19 PM]Mx:
yeah, if we want to be a pivot, keeping U-turn should be a priority
With the sentiment that the council wanted to keep both, we had a vote to make it official:
[8:20 PM]snake_rattler:
"yes" to keep Magic Guard, "no" otherwise
[8:20 PM]Jho:
yes
[8:20 PM]Mx:
Yes
[8:20 PM]snake_rattler:
yes
[8:20 PM]SHSP:
yes
[8:20 PM]snake_rattler:
"yes" to keep U-turn "no" otherwise
[8:20 PM]Jho:
yes
[8:20 PM]SHSP:
YES
[8:20 PM]snake_rattler:
yes
[8:21 PM]Mx:
yes
And thus, we voted 4-0 to keep Magic Guard and U-turn. We briefly discussed Volt Switch as well, but the council agreed that it wasn't worth considering. For my next question:
[8:21 PM]snake_rattler:
Alright, let's focus on stats now. The thread highlighted nerfing Special Defense and Speed. Which of the two is more important to consider first? We will address both, but I want to know which comes first.
[8:22 PM]Jho:
I think speed is more important to hit, speed adds a lot more offensive checks, Special Defense only effects a couple mons
[8:22 PM]Mx:
I think speed takes priority, because its the main thing making Cruci the undoubtedly best Mega in the meta
[8:22 PM]snake_rattler:
I think Speed
[8:22 PM]SHSP:
speed is more important to cruci
especially as a pivot
[8:23 PM]snake_rattler:
Ok, let's look at Speed. What should Mega Crucibelle's new speed tier be?
[8:23 PM]Jho:
Personally im OK with anything under 110, its just how far under u wanna go adding keldeo or kart
to offensive checks
[8:24 PM]snake_rattler:
I don't like the idea of tying with Kartana either Kartana should force out Mega Crucibelle because it outspeeds or not
[8:24 PM]Mx:
I think 108 is the best one, because it makes Cruci lose to Kart, Latios and Diancie, but it doesn't go as far as making you lose to Kril
[8:24 PM]snake_rattler:
I like 108 personally
[8:25 PM]Jho:
yeah i like 108 then
[8:25 PM]snake_rattler:
Do we have any other candidates other than 108?
[8:26 PM]Jho:
could always go 1 under keld
[8:26 PM]SHSP:
someone mentioned 104, but that was overkill and a half
[8:26 PM]Mx:
the other number that was mentioned a lot was 104
but yeah, that is overkill to me
[8:27 PM]SHSP:
i’m not using a mega as a pivot with 104, i don’t think
[8:27 PM]Jho:
108/107 i think are
[8:27 PM]snake_rattler:
probably not, i'm thinking 108 will be sufficient
[8:27 PM]Jho:
both fine
[8:27 PM]Mx:
I guess we could make it 107/106 for Keldeo, but that is not very relevant imo
[8:27 PM]snake_rattler:
it's really not all that relevant
[8:27 PM]SHSP:
nah, keld is as good as dead
And then a vote:
[8:29 PM]snake_rattler:
Vote "104" or "107" or " 108"
[8:29 PM]Mx:
108
[8:29 PM]Jho:
108
[8:29 PM]snake_rattler:
I know Jordy supports 108
[8:29 PM]snake_rattler:
I vote for 108
[8:29 PM]SHSP:
108
With another unanimous vote, Mega Crucibelle received its second nerf, lowering its speed to 108. This opens up offensive counterplay, preventing it from U-turn as easily against Pokemon like Kartana, Mega Diancie, and Mega Latios, which otherwise check it. Despite having gotten two of the biggest nerfs, we had longer discussions about additional ones. The first was when we started to move onto Special Defense.
[8:30 PM]snake_rattler:
Now, do we want to touch Special Defense?
[8:30 PM]Jho:
i do
i would like Volk and Zam to
have guaranteed OHKOs
[8:30 PM]snake_rattler:
after rocks?
that's what 3 or 4 SpD
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega: 312-368 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Volkraken Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega: 312-368 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
both with 122 SpD
[8:31 PM]Jho:
that looks
good to me
what were the SpD things in the thread
i saw someone say like
-10
[8:32 PM]snake_rattler:
-20 makes them always OHKO
but like
i think this is sufficient
[8:32 PM]SHSP:
-20 is nuking the mon imo
[8:32 PM]Mx:
yeah, that would be too much
[8:32 PM]SHSP:
is -spdef overkill now
we just nuked its wallbreaking a lot
between speed and smash
this adds 2 checks that we ran?
[8:33 PM]snake_rattler:
Honestly this stat drop is kinda superficial
[8:33 PM]Mx:
I personally don't think is necessary
[8:33 PM]Jho:
it is
[8:34 PM]snake_rattler:
now mega crucibelle doesn't live this
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle-Mega: 306-360 (86.4 - 101.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
it doesn't have a 1/8 chance to survive
it's not so much as "adding" two checks
but guaranteeing them
[8:34 PM]SHSP:
makes sense put that way
[8:35 PM]Jho:
i do not like the fact that its 12 and 18% chance respectively
for 2 of its most common RKers
[8:35 PM]SHSP:
i am just worried a bit about overdoing it
especially down a pivoting route
[8:35 PM]snake_rattler:
we're dropping from 106 / 125 to 106 / 122ish
there is the argument of whether this truly is necessary or not though
[8:36 PM]Jho:
there is it was extremley prominent in discussion tho
so its worth bringing up
[8:36 PM]SHSP:
yeah thats where I’m getting dissent from
the necessity of it
but knowing all it seems to do is guarantee two kills
[8:36 PM]snake_rattler:
but we're operating under the clear conditions of no head smash 108 speed
[8:36 PM]SHSP:
and encouraging pivoting
cause you don’t want to stay in and get stuck in that situation
[8:37 PM]Jho:
yeah thats 2 big RKs it gaurantees
[8:37 PM]snake_rattler:
Special Defense gets the biggest buff upon Mega Evolution, in part to compensate for the loss of healing from Regenerator. 106 / 125 is a meaty ST even with just the 4 HP EVs, taking 99% maximum damage from Choice Scarf Keldeo's Hydro Pump and granting a 50% chance of surviving Choice Specs Keldeo's Scald from full health. Rotom-W can manage a low-end 2HKO with Hydro Pump (58 - 68%) and so can unboosted Manaphy with Scald (56 - 67%), but both are easily 2HKO'd, so CAP wins those matchups with a good amount of HP to spare. Mega Gardevoir's Hyper Voice only manages 26 - 31% and it is outsped and OHKO'd by either of CAP's STAB attacks (watch out for Psyshock). Charizard-Y loses its ability to 2HKO the CAP upon Mega Evolution (36 - 43% from Sun-boosted Fire Blast) unless it runs Earthquake.
from Korski's post
[8:38 PM]Jho:
why do all of those mons
die and underspeed
[8:38 PM]SHSP:
seems as though we might add keldeo, in the end lol
[8:39 PM]Jho:
i can get behind the spdf drop
maybe
[8:39 PM]SHSP:
i’m not opposed to the spdef drop
on paper
[8:39 PM]snake_rattler:
So, do we think that this SpDef drop is necessary
[8:39 PM]Mx:
I don't think this is needed, the other nerf should be enough imo, and its not like its that hard to make Cruci take enough damage to achieve those KOs anyways
[8:39 PM]SHSP:
the necessity is hanging me up though
[8:40 PM]snake_rattler:
perhaps we can revisit this after we discuss one more topic
[8:40 PM]SHSP:
New cruci’s also gonna be chipped a bit more by like
opposing uturns and weaker hits
it otherwise wouldn’t be dealing with
[8:40 PM]snake_rattler:
i will mention that we aren't bottoming out Cruci's power
Stone Edge will still hit hard
basically as hard as scarftar's stone edge
to put it in context
[8:41 PM]SHSP:
i know it’s still strong, good that its still strong
[8:42 PM]Mx:
yeah, and its not like Gunk Shot is weak either, even if its typing is not that good
[8:42 PM]snake_rattler:
gunk shot with poison chance is still super great
ok, so let's table Special Defense for now
It was clear that lowering Special Defense, while nice to guarantee 2 offensive checks would always kill, wasn't completely necessary at this point due to the lowered speed. After losing Head Smash and lowering speed, guaranteeing that those two extra checks would always kill after Stealth Rock damage (base form takes SR damage) isn't inherently necessary.
We then moved onto the next topic: coverage in the form of Wood Hammer and Low Kick.
[8:42 PM]snake_rattler:
We also saw a little discussion on Low Kick and Wood Hammer. Do we want to address either of those?
[8:43 PM]SHSP:
i think hammer is fine
it’s already fallen very out of favor
[8:43 PM]snake_rattler:
I think Low Kick is the one we need to look at. Wood Hammer honestly doesn't do that much
[8:43 PM]Jho:
i really like -Low Kick
[8:43 PM]Mx:
yeah, hammer is not that useful
[8:43 PM]Jho:
ferro is already getting abused by uturn ignoring barbs
[8:43 PM]SHSP:
Most of what you’re gonna hammer you’re just gonna turn on
[8:44 PM]Mx:
But Low Kick is worth at least looking at
[8:44 PM]Jho:
it should at least be able to beat cruci if it needs to
[8:44 PM]SHSP:
reminder that jordy i believe is -lk
[8:44 PM]snake_rattler:
Let's vote on Wood Hammer just to get that out of the way? Any further comments on Wood Hammer?
[8:44 PM]Mx:
yeah jordy was pro -lk
[8:44 PM]Jho:
-Wood Hammer adds Hippo to counters
ftr
Im for remove hammer
[8:45 PM]SHSP:
you love hippo
[8:45 PM]Jho:
i dont think its neccesary and adds complications idk
this is true
bias setting in
[8:45 PM]SHSP:
i really don’t see hammer getting used
we didn’t nuke like uturn and its not gonna wanna drop rocks
[8:46 PM]Jho:
same but im gonna bring hippo in one time and its gonna die
[8:46 PM]snake_rattler:
remember, this is more about necessity than anything
[8:46 PM]Jho:
-Hammer and -Low kick also adds navi to counters
which i do like
[8:46 PM]Mx:
Removing hammer is not necessary, even if its used in the future, its not like most mons can't use some weird move to surprise an usual counter
[8:47 PM]snake_rattler:
i agree with that
[8:47 PM]Jho:
yeah
thats fair
We then held a vote on Wood Hammer:
[8:47 PM]snake_rattler:
"yes" to keep Wood Hammer, "no" to remove
[8:47 PM]SHSP:
yes keep hammer
[8:47 PM]Mx:
yes
[8:47 PM]Jho:
no
[8:47 PM]snake_rattler:
yes
With a 3-1 vote, we voted to keep Wood Hammer on Mega Crucibelle. Then, we discussed Low Kick. Now, I'd like to summarize this discussion because it was over a whole hour of discussion. After awhile, we determined that the big question we had to answer was:
[9:47 PM]Jho:
Do we think Cruci has sufficient defensive checks without removing low kick?
Ultimately, we determined that securing Ferrothorn as a hard defensive check and Heatran as a soft check was a good decision, since the defensive counterplay to Mega Crucibelle was still rather limited. Though it has hard defensive checks like Cyclohm, Toxapex, Mega Sableye, and Celesteela, adding on Ferrothorn seemed to round out the nerfing process, especially given its continued access to Magic Guard + U-turn.
[9:58 PM]snake_rattler:
vote "yes" to remove low kick, "no" otherwise
[9:58 PM]snake_rattler:
Jordy's already voted yes
[9:58 PM]Jho:
yes
[9:58 PM]SHSP:
ughhhhhhhhhhhh
[9:58 PM]Mx:
no
10:01 PM]SHSP:
yeah, lets can it, enforce uturn
[10:02 PM]snake_rattler:
i want abstain on this one because i know laughably little about building defensive teams
but yeah remove
With that, we revisited Special Defense.
[10:03 PM]snake_rattler:
i don't think it's necessary at all
at this point
it guarantees 2 extra checks
[10:03 PM]Mx:
with Low Kick removed, I'm now pretty confident this is enough
[10:03 PM]Jho:
i can get behind leaving spdf
[10:03 PM]Jho:
yes
And voted:
[10:04 PM]snake_rattler:
"yes" to remove a small amount of SpD, "no" otherwise
[10:04 PM]Jho:
no
[10:04 PM]snake_rattler:
no
[10:04 PM]Mx:
no
[10:04 PM]SHSP:
no
With an 0-4 vote, we voted to retain 125 Special Defense.
After that, we briefly discussed where the 6 points of Speed would go to retain the BST of 640. We decided that, after a few Hidden Power calcs, that putting them into Mega Crucibelle's Special Attack stat wouldn't affect much. And with that, we had exhausted all of the prepared topics, and no one else had further comments. Jordy came online later with his approval for the changes and discussion.
With that, I hope that there's no confusion on how the council came to its decisions on how Mega Crucibelle was nerfed. However, if you have questions, feel free to PM one of the council members with any concerns. The council thanks everyone who participated in the CAP Metagame's first nerfing process!
