Metagame NP: RU Stage 19: Trap Queen (Baton Pass Banned)

[atomicllamas]

The RU council has brought up Dugtrio as being deserving of a suspect test. As always, if you'd like to see some in depth reasoning as to why this Pokemon is being suspected, there is a paragraph written below about why Dugtrio in particular was chosen.

The requirements for this test will not be the same as last time. There will be one ladder. Dugtrio is ALLOWED on this ladder. On this ladder, you will be required to reach a coil of 2950 with a game limit of 123 games (the B value is 11). I will know if you reset your win loss, given its determined by GXE, do not attempt to game the system you will be infracted if I catch you, and I will. Some sample game requirements are shown for a range of GXEs below.

GXE N
84 59
82 72
80 93
78.5 123

Dugtrio Reasoning

Dugtrio is being suspected due to its ability to dispose of a number of offensive and defensive Pokemon, notably Registeel, Diancie, Virizion, and Magneton, which dilutes their viability and narrows the number of reliable options that can be used to counteract defensive builds and offensive combinations created by it. Dugtrio's ability to remove anti-defensive Pokemon magnifies the power of bulky teams by limiting the number of consistent wallbreakers and allows such teams to focus on countering offensive threats that are not susceptible to trapping; inversely, it creates powerful offensive cores due to the fact that it can eliminate grounded-checks for Pokemon such as Braviary and Venusaur, both of which are otherwise held down by a handful of Pokemon. Dugtrio isn't limited to trapping Pokemon specifically weak to its Earthquake though, as it is more than capable of picking off slightly weakened offensive threats such as Life Orb Venusaur, Meloetta, and Escavalier, and it has the potential to generate free set up turns with Memento for offensive teammates, further cementing its proficiency as a trapper and support 'mon.

tagging The Immortal for the ladder; please also change the B value, thanks in advance !_!

NP Song:

Suspect Deadline: Thursday, October 6th

***PSA: Don't shit post. Posts lacking content are subject to being deleted and / or infracted

edited to fix spacing ;p

 

[atomicllamas]

Locking this until ladder is up.

sam edit: it's up

 

[aurora]

Hopefully I can scrape the rust off and earn myself a vote this time around, because Dugtrio's got to go. EonX's post in the np: thread really summed up my thoughts on this unholy trinity of a Pokemon. The Father, its ability that allows Dugtrio to fit on a multitude of team archetypes, the Son, its concise but focussed movepool that allows Dugtrio to effortlessly specialise itself to its team's needs, and the Holy Spirit, its deceptively good stat spread, all make Dugtrio comparable to a severe migraine, both when teambuilding and playing. Knowing that trying to break a core with an offensive Pokemon such as Virizion will oftentimes only reward me with a fainted team member thanks to Dugtrio being reasonably easy to fit onto a wide variety of teams just sucks. In my view, nothing will cure the RU tier of its collective headache besides the sweet painkiller that will manifest as the playing populace typing 'Vote: Ban' in the forthcoming vote thread.

 

[Wobbuffet0]

Dugtrio is definitely a Metagame defining Mon. Trapping effectively changes the way Pokemon is supposed to be played by removing switching, and Dugtrio greatly affects RU in my opinion.

With its amazing speed stat of 120 (372 with Max speed and a + nature) and solid Ground STAB in Earthquake, a mediocre attack stat of 80 in conjunction with Arena Trap goes a long way. Steel types like Registeel, Steelix, and Magneton that can greatly threaten teams, can be simply removed with the appropriate Dugtrio set and certain amount of outplaying.

However, it's frailty in my opinion is enough to keep it in the tier. It's very weak to priority and can be countered by shed shell or pursuit users like escavalier. I am open to changing my opinion though as I can see it as a problem for many teams. I am interested in hearing further discussion.

 

[Der _Dusky ツ]

I recently started playing in RU, so take what I say carefully because I might be bad I don't have a lot of experience that other more notable players have.

While battling on SD, I met many Dugtrios here and there, and yes it can be painful to face.
It has one of the highest Speed in the tier, outsped only by the two 130s (Aero and Jolt), and Accelgor. This means that it will attack first most of times, and although it just has a decent 80 Atk, it can deal some damage to frailer and slower Pokémon when equipped with Life Orb.
I mainly saw Dugtrio in teams that struggle getting past Steel-types like Registeel, and Electric-types attackers (bar Rotom-C), or have problems dealing with Fire-types, since it can outspeed everything bar Scarf users like Delphox and Jolly Scarf Emboar (Adamant Scarf is outsped tho).
Sometimes I saw a slow VolTurn strategy in order to bring Dugtrio in, as it is weak af and can't take even resisted hits well: and at the same time, it can be surprisingly good at killing opposing VolTurn momentum, as it can neutralize a Volt Switch and basically erase Choice Specs Jolteon or Magneton.
Sometimes it can even kill Pokémon that theorically have the upper hand, like Virizion, using the appropriate move
It finally offers support for a setup sweeper via Memento, halving opponent's offense and fainting itself to pave the way for a setup.

However, Dugtrio is far from being a perfect war machine: first and most important, Arena Trap does not trap all Pokémon, since Flyings/Ghosts/Levitators (plus the rare Shed Shell) are immune to this ability and can freely get away from Dugtrio, bringing a teammate that can deal with it; in a similar way, U-Turn can alleviate this problem; moreover, while Dugtrio has a decent STAB and 80 Atk + Life Orb to do damage, it often does unexceptional damage on bulkier Pokémon which are neutral to EQ, Rock Slide/Stone Edge, and eventually Aerial Ace/Sucker Punch, and this means that it's open to a huge blow from tanks (since defensives are very low) or prone to be statused with WoW/Toxic; finally, while it has a spectacular Speed, its defenses make it prone to revenge kill from Scarfers with 65-positive Speed, neutral 80s, or priority attacks (especially the one it is weak to, like Ice Shard/Aqua Jet).

Personally, I try to work around Dugtrio by using a slow Uturn and by pivoting in someone who can deal with it via priority, burn, or else: however, this is not an autowin, as Dugtrio is still annoying to deal with, especially if you lack the aforementioned supereffective priorities.

 

[MANNAT]

I'm just gonna drop my opinion here since Dugtrio is stupid as all hell and frankly needs to get the fuck out of the tier. Dugtrio isn't "broken" in the traditional sense as much as it is uncompetitive. The fact that you can have your team structured so that it has a Pokemon that works really well vs Regimola while maintaining functionality vs offense like say, virizion. You can play an amazing game, outplaying your opponent throughout and eliminating your opponent's Gourgiest, or whatever their Virizion counter is. Then you click Swords Dance vs Registeel only to realize that you only get one kill because duggie comes in and kills you. You can't switch out to preserve your wincon later in the game, you just have to accept that your regimola breaker is dead and you have virtually no chance of winning now, which absolutely sucks. Not only does Dugtrio force you to account for it in the teambuilding phase and makes certain things like Choice Specs Jolteon objectively bad even though they are sets that you would want to use, Dugtrio forces you to play a certain way in the actual gamess and it's completely stupid. You can't even go for Volt Switch vs Registeel or Jellicent because you know that your opponent could vary well come in and eliminate one of your main breakers, so you are forced to go for Flash Cannon vs mons that it can't touch, which is really dumb. Obviously Dugtrio is frail, but it doesn't need bulk for its role because its faster than everything it revenge kills and either comes in on resisted attacks or Seismic Tosses, so it doesn't matter. I could talk about why Dug is stupid for days, but here's a small overview of my opinion and why I think we should Ban Dugtrio.

 

[EonX]

my previous Duggy post for those not wanting to go and look for it since Aurora referenced it. My thoughts on it really haven't changed from this. It's something that makes ANY grounded Pokemon inherently harder to use simply because you have to know that there will be some games you have to be extra careful with certain mons just because of Duggy's presence. The opponent could play like absolute shit, but as long as they have Duggy on their team, you're forced to play extra safe with anything that's weak to EQ / AA, or in KO range of any move Dugtrio may run (EQ, AA, Edge, Sucker, Pursuit) and it doesn't even need to reveal those moves until the targeted Pokemon is in KO range. After all, outside of EQ and AA, you have no idea what it could be running because that's all Dugtrio "needs" to run per se. So if you have something weak to Sucker Punch, you have to be wary of that even if that particular Dugtrio isn't using the move because if it is running Sucker, you lose that mon instantly. The risk won't be worth the reward. I know getting rid of Dugtrio has a strong potential to make Magneton crazy good, but the amount of Pokemon that Dugtrio suppresses (SpDef Diancie, Registeel, Virizion, Magneton, Mega Camerupt, Emboar, Delphox, Houndoom) is kind of ridiculous. And the listed Pokemon are just those outright weak to EQ and Aerial Ace. When you factor in Pokemon that drop to CB EQ just due to a neutrality and just average physical bulk, that list gets longer. Now you include Pokemon like Venusaur (offensive only) Meloetta, Exploud, Medicham (non-Scarf only) Hoopa

The last comparison I'll draw is Tyrantrum. Now, I know what a lot of people are probably thinking. "Eon, how in the name of Arceus is Dugtrio anything like Tyrantrum?" Well, at the start, there is no common thing between Duggy and Tyrantrum. However, in practice, there are. Duggy team vs Duggy team will almost always end up being a matter of trapping each other and hoping to win the Speed tie to preserve whatever Pokemon you have left that might be susceptible to being trapped by Dugtrio. Whoever wins the Speed tie will often win the match. This is also a reason I tend to run Sucker Punch on CB Dugtrio so I don't even have to risk that "Speed tie". I've seen it happen quite a few times and it's actually kind of disgusting. Finally, for those maybe not familiar with RU, here's what Dugtrio typically runs:

Grand Mole

Dugtrio @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
- Earthquake
- Aerial Ace
- Pursuit / Substitute / Memento / Toxic
- Sucker Punch / Substitute / Memento / Toxic / Stone Edge

3rd slot has 4 slashes and last slot has 5 slashes mainly due to item choice. If using Life Orb, Sub, Memento, and Toxic become perfectly usable options. As I've mentioned, EQ and AA are mandatory. Pursuit is so useful, especially when running CB. As I mentioned, Sucker makes it to where Duggy vs Duggy isn't a Speed tie for you, and it also helps vs Jolteon, Accelgor, and other random Scarf users. Listed Stone Edge mainly because it's still a move Dugtrio can run and you have to know your damage ranges vs it. It doesn't help Duggy trap anything in particular, but it can be nice vs Rotom-C, Roost / CM Sigilyph, and Braviary. Note that none of these are inherently trapped by Arena Trap due to their typing or ability.

 

[Miyami~~]

Dugtrio is interesting. At first glance, it sucks. So-so power, godawful defences. However, Dugtrio has all the right stats in all the right places to do its job. The reason Dugtrio is so threatening is its Ability, Arena Trap, combined with a very high base 120 speed, means it can keep a Pokémon in play and kill it without your opponent being able to do anything about it. Notable Pokémon that it traps and disposes of include Virizion, Registeel, and Diancie, all of which are either OHKO'd or 2HKO'd and can't KO back because Seismic Toss never KOs from full health. Whenever you have something like Registeel or Virizion and your opponent has Dugtrio, you may as well be down a Pokémon straight from the teambuilder. That's the effect this mon has. Additionally, it's also a busted supporter for Regimola, as most Regimola breakers, examples are Magneton and Virizion are trapped and OHKOed by Dugtrio. While it is fragile and weak to priority, Once Dugtrio is on the field your other 5 Pokémon don't matter, because whatever you have out is stuck until it dies. You don't have the freedom to switch to your priority user if your opponent is smart and doesn't overstep what they're doing with Dugtrio. You'd be stupid to send it in on a Sneasel with a choice to go into something else, because you're just asking for an Ice Shard. However, Dugtrio traps and beats most rockers 1v1, as well as common balance breakers such as Virizion, Emboar, and Magneton. In order to circumvent it, you have to run Shed Shell, since most of what Dugtrio beats doesn't get priority and is simply outsped and kills. Then Dugtrio switches out and waits for something else to come in that it beats.

Dugtrio isn't a broken sweeper, it's a revenge killer. And what it's designed to kill happen to be some of the best Pokémon in the tier and it does so with absolutely no resistance because of Arena trap. This makes Dugtrio an incredibly constraining Pokémon even from the team preview and requires extroardinarily careful outplaying just to kill one Pokémon that does have the freedom to switch out at any time, something you lack. This makes it an incredibly unhealthy Pokémon in the tier that warps the metagame around itself and should be banned.

The goal of a healthy metagame to me is a metagame that balances itself out through each viable Pokémon and playstyle having inherent strengths and weaknesses that balance eachother out, thus creating a diverse metagame where everything has strengths and everything has weaknesses. Dugtrio is a Pokémon that can nullify the weaknesses of many cores while also enhancing their strengths, thus creating an unhealthy metagame. That's the effect Dugtrio has on the tier, and the tier is much better off without it as the playstyles and cores that were stronger with Dugtrio are still strong, and the playstyles and cores that were weakened by Dugtrio get stronger and more able to compete, thus creating a healthier metagame as a result.

 

[DTC]

Teambuilding in RU feels like a massive checklist right now. You need Pokemon that can not only break through defensive cores such as RegiMola, but also Pokemon that do not get trapped by Dugtrio or Pursuit. For example, you could use a Pokemon such as Virizion, Life Orb Medicham, Magneton, or CB Aggron to break through defensive cores, except they all get trapped by Dugtrio. On defensive teams, otherwise solid defensive Pokemon such as Registeel, Diancie, and even niche Pokemon such as Lanturn can be summarily dispatched in one fell swoop which can opens up massive holes in the team. Dugtrio puts an unhealthy emphasis on correct predictions (e.g if Registeel uses SR instead of Seismic Toss or Toxic, it gets trapped by Dugtrio), and puts too much pressure on Pokemon meant to wallbreak as they are discouraged from actually killing a Pokemon lest they be revenge killed by Dugtrio. This illustrates how Dugtrio has way too much impact in both teambuilding and the actual match itself. While you can use variations that deal with Dugtrio better, such as Sturdy Magneton or Shuca Drapion, Shed Shell Registeel, or Coba Berry Virizion, these variations often cripple an important or even essential part of the Pokemon. The amount Dugtrio restricts teambuilding and forces you to play extraordinarily cautiously is unhealthy for the metagame and thus Dugtrio should be banned.

 

[Ajna]

Okay I don't really post much anymore, but I feel obligated to because this duggy suspect is in my opinion more important to the meta than the mola suspect. As a player I have always favored offensive play styles (Mainly BO), so I do have a rather large bias, but I believe that the meta is more healthy with dugtrio. In the past I was always against trapping because I felt that it was completely skill-less, but I now feel like it makes the meta more balanced. I don't know why people keep arguing that dugtrio makes alomomola teams better because from my experience mola teams have a very hard time fitting dugtrio into their six. The only example I've seen of dugtrio working with a mola team (not mola offense which is the greatest play style of all time) is FlamingVictini 's team. fv has expressed his hatred opinion on duggy, but i feel like dugtrio has to compete with a lot of other pokemon on fat teams. While Fv's team is still very solid it has problems with all sigi variants, and other psychics that have a way to get past registeel. I bring this up because dugtrio is his main way of getting rid of sigi on that team, with the second being venu's knock off. The game essentially comes down to a 50/50 when duggy safely gets in on sigi. The only way to get duggy in is on a predicted roost or cm, on a double, or after sacking a pokemon which is something fat teams usually don't want to do. The reason his team functions so well is because of how much more reliable registeel is with shed shell. This is where the personal bias that everyone participating in the has comes into play. Should fatter teams be forced to go the extra mile preparing for dugtrio by using things such as a shed shell, or should it be banned for giving offense a very favorable matchup? This is what you as the voter have to decide. Also, I am not completely ignoring that dugtrio affects offense, but it just does not have the same impact that it has against fatter teams. Dugtrio is definitely annoying for bo because it can remove diancie and virizion pretty much immediately, and can also remove mons such as escav when weakened, but it is much easier to play around in game when using offense and can even be trapped by scarf drap and scav if you really need duggy gon for viriz or something. Dugtrio does invalidate virizion to an extent, but I do no think it is overall unhealthy for the meta. I'm open to any opinions and I have definitely not made my final decision on banning it or not, but I just felt it was important to look at it from the other perspective.

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

Even though these next two weeks will be rough for me IRL and I'm not sure if I'll take part in this much-needed suspect, I guess I can share my thoughts. Surprisingly enough I think Dugtrio deserves to be banned, but not because of a #MakeVirizionGreatAgain argument that plagues this thread and the former. I think it was MrAldo in his wonderful post in last np who said that playing against Dug is most of the times a 5-6, if not worse. Depending on the team you're using, which already had been forcefully pressured by the building process, facing a Dugtrio really applies a lot of pressure to your thought: Should I switch to my Registeel on that LO Venusaur knowing that the opponent may double into Dugtrio? Should I click Wild Charge on Emboar to kill that Slowking even though he may switch into Dugtrio and trap the big pig, or should i click Flare Blitz and take the roll to kill it, but with the risk to lose Emboar anyway? Should I click Poison Jab on my Scarf Drapion to attempt killing opposing Granbull or Knock Off expecting Dugtrio and getting Mexico'd by the fairy dog in the process, inviabilizing it anyway? Not to mention the number of extremely dangerous sweepers that Dugtrio offers a support greatly, including Braviary and Vivillon, which doubles the pressure on the battle, may one of those pokémon rape your team after your check, let's say Diancie or Magneton, gets trapped. For the pressure argument alone I incline towards banning it, but there is also the revenge killing factor, the Shed Shell viable factor, the proliferation of Shuca (though it isn't solely Dugtrio's fault), and the fact that Dugtrio gone has a chance of making Alomomola worse (which God forbid may still be broken after it gone, we still have Virizion right? RIGHT??? Not that we can pair it with Uxie/Venusaur/Delphox/Golbat/Fletchinder/Weezing/Togetic/etc to make it still not that reliable Mola check, right?) make me thing Dugtrio out can improve RU somewhat. Sure it might have a harder time against bulkier teams, but as a whole Dugtrio's presence harms the meta more than it helps.

Tl;dr For me dug is broken mostly because of the pressure it applies, both in teambuilding and in-battle, but has other things going for it previously mentioned. The order of the factors of brokenness may vary from player to player according to their style, but most remain the same. And if it may make Alomomola less broken, well sign me in!

 

[Heroes and Cons]

Honestly, it's ability alone is worthy of a ban - it's essentially a slightly nerfed Shadow Tag, in that flying and levitating Pokemon are immune also. But a minimum 2/3rds of the tier needs to run Shed Shell - an otherwise awful item that is popularised JUST because of this one Pokemon - to escape it, and with a powerful choice-banded STAB EQ bolstered by great coverage in Aerial Ace and Stone Edge, and of course its almost unmatched base 120 Speed (one of the most notable of the few Pokemon that is faster than it, Jolteon, is also weak to Ground) and you have what is almost the perfect revenge killer, one that not only outspeeds a huge portion of the tier and has the coverage to hit tons of dangerous Pokemon super-effectively for an easy kill... but one that cannot even be switch out of, or played around, thanks to its broken ability. I seriously hope people realise how utterly broken and overcentralising this thing is for the tier.

 

[MemeMeme Island]

I can already smell the counterarguments before they're even posted.

"frail as shit"
"not powerful"

Why this is bullshit:

Neither of these points prevent Dugtrio from doing the thing that it does that's unhealthy: trapping. Dugtrio isn't supposed to be taking hits, it's supposed to offensively revenge kill. Besides, it can run Focus Sash, which then gives it a powerful Reversal. And it may be weak, but it's still very capable of killing many Pokemon.

Dugtrio is also extremely fast. There are exactly 3 Pokemon that outspeed it. And Dugtrio can Sucker Punch them anyway.

Oh, and Dugtrio is also extremely customizable. It can take advantage of its Speed tier through its good coverage, between Stone Edge, Ariel Ace, Reversal and Sucker Punch, Dugtrio can even act as a sweeper if it wants to. It can also act as a rocker or run Memento for some good support options.

I haven't even talked about Dugtrio's impact on the meta yet. It makes Alomomola a lot of sweepers hard to deal with, certain Pokemon like Diancie have to change their item, too many Pokemon are decreasing in viability because of it, and it makes RegiMola almost unbeatable because it kills Virizion, which is the best breaker to that core.

tl;dr

BAN

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Go read my post in Policy Review

Ban Dugtrio

 

[eifo]

Duggie's ability retstricts teambuilding, restrics the way you play and ruins most of regimola's counters. it also has decent priority in sucker punch, great utility moves in SR and memento, pursuit to trap ghosts(making playing against duggie even harder as a lot of 50-50s between sucker and pursuit will occur and even if it doesn't actually have suit, you don't know that until it's revealed all of its moves). Basically Duggie has a lot of unhealthy traits, damaging the current meta. I believe ru would be a better place without it.

 

[Complicating]

This time I can definitely see a need to do something about this. In absolute honesty, the only thing that's truly broken about it is that Arena Trap ability that only it and Trapinch have access to. Dugtrio is unfortunately very speedy, which doesn't help fix the problem at all. I've had a few games where Dugtrio makes a correct play the worst decision. Dugtrio on my opponent's screen makes me uncomfortable with making doubles and prevents certain setup sweepers from functioning until it's gone. I've often found myself running Flygon and Eelektross just to relieve some of the pressure this little guy dishes out just by existing with a trapping ability. I've noticed so many weird teams in RU more than I've ever seen before just because of the insane team combinations that Dugtrio can create. I know this isn't exact nor entirely true, but I sincerely have an impression that half of the teams I see have at least 2 or 3 ways to alleviate the problems Dugtrio tends to cause while the half uses Dugtrio with some funky offensive and defensive pairs alike. Having at least 2 non-grounded members is a good example of the first half. If not that, then something like Shuca Berry Diancie acting as a lure given that it's next to Alomomola or a nice balance/defensive build. Hell, I'm no stranger to consider giving several of my grounded members a Shed Shell just because of this stupid demon mole.

Don't even get me started on the rather excessive number of offensive cores and options Dugtrio tends to create through its role. I've seen Dugtrio+Virizion+Venusaur+Fletchinder; Duggy+Regimola bulky offense/balance; Duggy+Any variety of Flying Spam imaginable; Dugtrio Spike Stacking Teams of various types seeing as Dugtrio can pick off weakened spinners or flat out OHKO a Hitmonlee as well as the fact that it has Memento, which makes it truly annoying to deal with when spikes and rocks are up; These are really just the most noticeable kinds of things I personally see Dugtrio on when I play RU. But none of them are subject to being limited in any way.

Dugtrio just makes it virtually impossible to deal with an opponent's team just due to the fact that it allows so many different offensive and defensive options compatible and viable simply because it can trap things. If we were to just ban Arena Trap as an ability, I'd be okay with keeping Dugtrio around because then it wouldn't be anywhere close to the monster it is with that as an ability. That's just my 2 cents and it doesn't matter anyway because that isn't what the suspect test is for anyway. It's about the tiny demon mole thing with three heads that exists in RU named Dugtrio.

I'm definitely going to go with a ban this time around.

tl;dr

Dugtrio is a demon mole pokemon that traps teams and hinders team building against it. Gives too many options to build around it or with it.
110% Ban.

 

[Senpai D.M]

I guess I'll add to this discussion xp After reading these posts I'm honestly not convinced it's broken. Now I'm not saying it's not super good right now but it also has a few flaws. Could it also be that it's just a really good revenge killer? Hmm idk but I thought I'd try to contribute and get a better understanding instead of reading another broken post.

The main set that I've seen is Choice band (not a fan of but eh) traps mons p well or gets locked into a move and in the process loses momentum, 9/10 it's clicking earthquake or still giving a free set up opportunity, switch in etc. Lastly I've not really seen many teams running substitute I feel like that's a must right now to lure dugtrio in trying to get a trap. Undecided

 

[Nalei]

I'm yet to reach the reqs, but I'm leaning towards not banning it. While it's the undisputably best revenge killer in the tier and has the ability to form some brutal cores with pokemon like Alomomola, I don't find it too hard to work around. It's easy enough to revenge kill despite it's 120 base speed due to it's susceptibility to priority and Pursuit, as well as scarfers. Although I'm a little bit biased due to my bulky offense play style, I find that it's easy enough to work around. Flying types/levitators can prevent it from being effective, and unless I'm mistaken, nearly all teams have either something bulky enough to wall it, or a pokemon that can't be trapped by it. U-Turn and even Baton Pass are some other great ways to work around it in a less prediction-oriented fashion. It's definitely a threat, but not broken in my opinion.

 

[Punchshroom]

I'm yet to reach the reqs, but I'm leaning towards not banning it. While it's the undisputably best revenge killer in the tier and has the ability to form some brutal cores with pokemon like Alomomola, I don't find it too hard to work around. It's easy enough to revenge kill despite it's 120 base speed due to it's susceptibility to priority and Pursuit, as well as scarfers. Although I'm a little bit biased due to my bulky offense play style, I find that it's easy enough to work around. Flying types/levitators can prevent it from being effective, and unless I'm mistaken, nearly all teams have either something bulky enough to wall it, or a pokemon that can't be trapped by it. U-Turn and even Baton Pass are some other great ways to work around it in a less prediction-oriented fashion. It's definitely a threat, but not broken in my opinion.

You're kind of looking at this from the wrong angle. Duggy losing neutral matchups, having no hope of beating bulky walls, and not being able to trap Flyings / Levitators are no-brainer facts that everyone already knows, but you also have to be aware of the fact that Duggy can just choose its favorable matchups using its ability and win them with ease by denying switches. For instance, who cares if your Alomomola can wall Duggy to the end of time if the latter has already engaged your 40% Rhyperior; Duggy's already done its job as you could not prevent it from claiming its victim. If your Duggy response happens to be grounded, then you don't even have the option to pull a double switch to punish their switch-in. More importantly, the problem people have with Duggy right now is how much of the meta it can currently render liabilities.

Here are some (definitely not all) notable examples of mons that Dugtrio can pose a threat to, between the S and B Ranks:

(Pursuit)

You have to play with these in such a fashion that you're aware that they can be dropped dead in an instant without much you can do about it, so you're constantly pressured into making awkward double switches. You could counter-prepare with items like Choice Scarf, resist Berries, even Shed Shell or whatever, but that only limits the potential roles these Pokemon would otherwise be able to perform simply because of Duggy's presence alone. These are just the healthy mons that Duggy can pick off, btw; Duggy can most certainly ensure the demise of weakened Pokemon, and fast Ground STAB is effective enough in RU to pose a fairly universal threat to most teams. The fast Memento certainly doesn't help matters either, further increasing Dugtrio's potential danger level and difficulty to be 'worked around'. You also said something about "U-turn and Baton Pass circumventing Dugtrio", but how many mons that are susceptible to Duggy in the first place even learn one of those?

Dugtrio was much less of a problem when Tyrantrum and Mega Steelix were still around; the former bearing down on the offensive teams that Duggy preys on, and the latter being part of formidable cores far too bulky for Dugtrio to break. With those two gone, all of Duggy's troublesome qualities have risen to the surface, so I can definitely see why it'd be considered for the ban.

 

[Umbra Soul]

I don't really have the time to bother getting reqs for this one, though gonna throw in my two cents to see if more people can lean towards banning Dugtrio from RU, since it's a pretty cancerous thing that starts from the teambuilder and makes itself a very dangerous opponent that you can't slip up against or it can easily decide a match upon slipping up or something.

First off let me state I'm not naturally against trapping in general except for when it's plenty obvious that the trapper has a superior advantage against much of a metagame's usable Pokemon, which at the moment Dugtrio has some pretty favorable match-ups against many common offensive Pokemon and a variety of the defensive and bulky ones that anchor teams.

I mean it looks weak and all, but switching is a main mechanic of the game and it can easily abuse how big switching is in this tier, especially when it's combined with hazards. The RU tier doesn't all that great hazard removers, it's basically Flygon and Blastoise, occasionally Hitmonlee (but when do you actually ever bother spinning when you spam HJK and or Knock Off and profit?) then some niche options in keeping them off like Xatu, Golbat, Togetic, Hitmontop, maybe find a way to use Mantine, Pelipper, or Skuntank, but yeah outside the top 2 every other one is kind of meh overall in the tier right now. All it takes is having SR up and having a team that can threaten Pokemon off the field to go to better options, and that damage stacks up. It stacks up eventually to a point that you can't let Pokemon who could normally tank an EQ from Duggy fall below a certain threshold or it's very open to being revenge killed, or in the case of combining with Volt-Turn tactics, just use it to trap and kill when the damage from your attack puts it in kill range for EQ and continue as normal for the match if that's all you need to do. Seeing as Steel and Rocks are generally U-Turn absorbers, Dugtrio makes for an excellent partner with a few of the U-Turners in the tier to get rid of certain threats like Diancie and Registeel safely. Stuff like Virizion and Venusaur who act as Volt Switch absorbers for some teams have to be careful seeing as AA Duggy can one shot Viri, and pairing a Volt Switch user with Duggy and something that you can switch to always force Venusaur back out immediately again can against stack some damage in favor that it can be difficult that when the time comes to kill Venu, Duggy shouldn't have a problem after a few times.

Pretty much everything on Duggy has already been said. Heck EonX has said pretty much everything I'd have said on it here and in the Alo thread regarding Dugtrio's role for teams. EQ is a very good neutral move against many of the tier's common offensive Pokemon, AA is your guaranteed Virizion removal, the other two moves are just a mix of what could be useful like Memento when/if Duggy removes a threat to what can be a team sweep for certain set up sweepers, Sucker for priority before death, Sub to outpredict the only answer priorities for some teams that use Sucker Punch meaning you can get another free hit or two, Pursuit to get something like Hoopa (who imo is also fricking ridiculous). Though one option that wasn't on that can also be helpful to a certain extent is Protect as a 4th option. Good to scout against potential Scarf users, that way you can make an even better switch prediction or in the case of an opponent's answer being Scarf Drapion who might have a shot to Pursuit you if the potential to kill is greater than the spam of Knock Off (which would kill Duggy anyway) gives you an out against them and since Pursuit doesn't kill Duggy if you aren't switching him and you can revenge fire a EQ. Also useful against some stuff like Scarf Medi who might just out and out HJK if the team doesn't have a ghost to deter it from spamming the move, great way to mess with those kind's of users tbh if you feel frisky to try it.

I will relent that for some that don't think Duggy might not be broken that there are things that make it's effectiveness kind of average if you combine them all together on a team, without realizing it having some levitate users together, or some of the bulkier Pokemon that find neutrality to EQ and can generally shrug it off due their bulk, but the thing with Duggy is well it's picking what it wants to trap and when it can trap it. If there's something that is generally a problem for a team to win efficiently, Duggy can more than likely trap it and get rid of it for a team. It honestly doesn't care about what something can tank it, seeing as you won't generally get it in until after Duggy's done it's job if it has its way through various tactics to get it in. Once it's done it's job then Duggy isn't relatively needed anymore for support and can just be foddered off by weakening something before dying or giving something a free turn with the use of Memento. Honestly, it just doesn't care what can stop it if it's removed what it needs to.

tl;dr - Duggy's just too good of a Pokemon in the current RU meta due to how many top threats are actually susceptible to it with a general ease of doing it's job. It's ability to hamper the viability of many of the top Pokemon by forcing players to play safe or not slipping up one move is fairly restricting, and it's a Pokemon that at this point should be banned from the tier.

 

[MagicHoraceGrant]

Alright I might be a little late to the ban party, but I have the perfect replay that shows how dugtrio is broken.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-449718479

Here it shows duggie killing and trapping 3 mons when he has only one ground weakness. Dugtrio isn't broken on offense because the strong fighting types in the tier (Sawk, Medi, Hitmonlee, +2 Virizon, and dd scrafty) can break through walls similar to how dugtrio does. However, duggie can take care of many of the wallbreakers in the tier and trap them making it so walbreakers like magneton, delphox, virizon can only get one kill. That is why duggie is broken. It makes stall teams too good.

 

[atomicllamas]

Dugtrio is banned, can you please take it off the ladder The Immortal :)? You da best.

Feel free to use this thread to continue to discuss the RU meta game in the mean time (there should be some changes mostly in the team building aspect of RU!).

 

[feen]

Since Dugtrio got banned (yay), these Pokemon are going to be way better:

Virizion will be monstrous again, as it can easily fend off RegiMola cores and should carry Zen Headbutt as its coverage move to beat Venusaur 1v1 as well. Defensive Venusaur fails to KO Virizion, while offensive Venusaur dies to +2 Zen Headbutt. Virizion + Alomomola / Blastoise will be a pretty solid core, as best checks for Virizion would be Sneasel and Drapion, both of which is handled easily by these bulky Water-types. Fletchinder's usage might increase, but will still be less due to Magneton's increased usage. Magneton doesn't need to be wary of Dugtrio trapping it anymore, and can run Choice Specs and maneuver much freely. Braviary's usage should drop a bit, as Braviary + Dugtrio was a broken core, and people are now getting at least two checks for it (Thunderbolt Registeel is getting more popular, for example). Slow Ground- and Fire-types such as Houndoom and Mega Camerupt will be more dangerous, making Flygon better than it already is.

At least Omfuga can't call 80% of the tier "Pivoted by Alomomola and trapped by Dugtrio" now haha!

 

[freezai]

Am i the only who thinks that RU is the best ORAS tiers rn? There's nothing really overcentralizing in the tier besides like Aloma which has a billion checks and Flygon which is a healthy type of centralizing. So many different playstyles are viable from stall to offense. There's also a lot of innovation and many lower tier mons from NU and PU are usable. Its a lot of fun building because there are so many options to choose from. All those bans really worked out huh

 

[Senpai D.M]

Another mon that's good rn and has multiple sets it can run all covering different roles on the team and it's hard to predict what items it's running. Along with others Delphox Mega Camerupt etc are p heat as well :)