Metagame NP: NU Stage 17 - She [Indeedee-F BANNED]

:ss/indeedee-f:

Indeedee-F has had a quite storied history in NU, first starting with its stronger cousin Indeedee-M getting banned and re-tested, inevitably leading it to getting banned again. Since then, people have realized the potential of Indeedee-F within the tier, both as a Choice Scarf user and a Choice Specs breaker. Indeedee-F is quite one-dimensional as a breaker, sporting Psychic Terrain and Expanding Force to fire off devastating 156BP STAB Psychic-type moves at the opponent. However, its coverage isn't anything to scoff at, carrying both Dazzling Gleam and Mystical Fire to pressure many would-be checks such as Guzzlord, Scrafty, and Escavalier with moves that deal 4 times normal damage. Although dissuading Indeedee-F from using its Psychic STAB with Steel- and Dark-types eliminates a large part of the issue it poses as a breaker, one good read can leave you without your most reliable checks to the move.

Indeedee-F poses a large issue in the builder due to the sheer power of Choice Specs Expanding Force. The best check to Indeedee-F, Stakataka, cannot reliably switch in more than once to Expanding Force before being in the range of a 2HKO from the move. This makes any attempt to reliably check it from Pokemon that aren't Dark-types very difficult, and even then, either Dazzling Gleam or Hyper Voice does a good amount of damage to all of them. This makes most defensive counterplay to it very shaky, often relying on counterhits from Pokemon that live a hit or risky predictions to play around its easy to click STAB move.

One thing Indeedee-F does better than its male counterpart is utility, particularly because of the move Healing Wish. This makes it one of the best offense enablers as a Choice Scarf user because it forces the opponent into linear counterplay to avoid getting hit with a strong Psychic-type move, and then when Indeedee-F isn't needed, it can serve to give a second life to a strong offensive staple such as Silvally-Ground. It has some more utility and set variety, notably with moves such as Trick crippling defensive staples, and sets such as Calm Mind + Twisted Spoon offering some of the immediate power of Choice Specs sets without risking as much against the Dark-types that are forced out by Dazzling Gleam.

The final charasteristic of Indeedee-F is its terrain. Obviously its terrain can strengthen itself a fair amount, but since Psychic Terrain stops priority moves from either player, it is a huge enabler for offense when combined with Healing Wish. This has been paired with Sceptile in SCL to a very high degree of success, enabling Sceptile to run Unburden in terrain while providing all the upside that Indeedee-F gives offensive teams as well.

Although there's a lot of reasons that Indeedee-F is relatively difficult in the builder, there's some merits to the ways to check it too. For one, Choice Scarf has very many soft counters, such as the Eeveelutions, Mantine, Xatu, most Steel-types and most Dark-types. As a Choice Scarf user, it is still outsped by the premier Choice Scarf user in the tier, Rotom-Mow. As a Choice Specs user, it is outsped by many offensive staples that Indeedee-M would be able to challenge such as Drapion, Silvally-Ground, Rotom-Mow, and speed tying with both Duraludon and Toxicroak. Although Choice Specs has less definitive checks outside of Drapion, Stakataka, and Copperajah, there are many Pokemon, namely Dark-types and Steel-types, that can pressure Indeedee-F for clicking a wrong move. In practice, its also very frail physically, allowing even mediocre attacking Pokemon such as Talonflame to be able to force it out when given the chance, or certain defensive Pokemon that don't resist Psychic to take one hit and return a powerful blow.

Overall, Indeedee-F is the most controversial breaker that we still allow in the metagame, and is a great breaker to be our last suspect. Although it is debatably manageable alone, many believe the rise of offenses that compliment its use of Healing Wish and use of terrain bring an already borderline breaker over the tipping point in the builder. Indeedee-F is at the center of a lot of trends that have been happening in NU, and while most of them are positive overall, its clear that its time to have a talk about whether we should end the generation with Indeedee-F still being legal.

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Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
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:ss/indeedee-f:
It's no secret that Indeedee is an extremely powerful nuke thanks to the absurd move STAB Expanding Force paired with auto terrain, but for the past few months it's been seeing usage in the tier, I've found it quite possible to beat defensively between the many viable Steel's, Dark-types, and other miscellaneous Pokemon, such as Cuno-G, who can all eat a hit or two, especially from Scarf. Offensively, Pokemon like Silvally-G, Talon, Mow, etc can also scare it out or revenge it (especially Specs sets), so in my experience it never felt too overbearing and all my good teams had legit, not too hard to find, counterplay. That being said, even with this in mind, I was always on the fence on Indeedee-F. Even though I never felt like I was struggling too much, I definitely thought it was annoying in the builder and strong enough where I wouldn't mind it leaving.

What pushes it over the top for me is terrain offense and Sceptile. Outside of terrain Sceptile probably sucks, but in combination with auto terrain, it's transformed into a blazing fast sweeper with perfect coverage and a defensive boost that is extremely difficult to deal with when used alongside Indeedee-F. Whether or not Scept proves to be too much on E Terrain remains to be seen, but I think getting rid of Indeedee effectively nips this threat in the bud for now, which, in conjunction with the other reasons above, is why I'll be voting ban on Indeedee.
 
while I do think Indeedee-F can be very annoying to fight and Choice Specs can be a nightmare to switch in, but banned it will be a major loss to the tier. Psychic-types like Xatu, Articuno-Galar and Starmie are still great, but Starmie rarely runs any Psychic moves, Articuno-Galar runs Future Sight to hit pokemon that can check Articuno, and while Xatu is still a great defense and pivot pokemon but it’s not a great offense pokemon and has to be worried about Vileplume Sludge bomb so losing the only great offense Psychic will be a major blow to the tier. it does have checks like Dark- and Steel-types, but Dark-types like Absol, Sneasel, and Guzzlord doesn’t like getting hit by Dazzling Gleam, Drapion can take one Dazzling Gleam and can OHKO with Knock Off, but it doesn’t like switching into a Choice Specs and STAB Hyper Voice. Steel-types like Copperajah and Escavalier doesn’t like switching into a Mystical fire and Stakataka doesn’t like into Specs Expanding Force, while Stunfisk-Galar is the perfect check to Indeedee-F, but Stunfisk does lack recovery and get worn by physical attacks making it unable to switch to Indeedee-F. Sceptile Terrain teams are so easy to play around them, and sceptile is easily crippled by burned and trick by a choice item. While Indeedee-F can be annoying and can be a pain to fight, but it’s not ban worthy and that’s why i’m voting not to ban Indeedee-F
 

Lucario

A side must always be chosen
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while I do think Indeedee-F can be very annoying to fight and Choice Specs can be a nightmare to switch in, but banned it will be a major loss to the tier. Psychic-types like Xatu, Articuno-Galar and Starmie are still great, but Starmie rarely runs any Psychic moves, Articuno-Galar runs Future Sight to hit pokemon that can check Articuno, and while Xatu is still a great defense and pivot pokemon but it’s not a great offense pokemon and has to be worried about Vileplume Sludge bomb so losing the only great offense Psychic will be a major blow to the tier. it does have checks like Dark- and Steel-types, but Dark-types like Absol, Sneasel, and Guzzlord doesn’t like getting hit by Dazzling Gleam, Drapion can take one Dazzling Gleam and can OHKO with Knock Off, but it doesn’t like switching into a Choice Specs and STAB Hyper Voice. Steel-types like Copperajah and Escavalier doesn’t like switching into a Mystical fire and Stakataka doesn’t like into Specs Expanding Force, while Stunfisk-Galar is the perfect check to Indeedee-F, but Stunfisk does lack recovery and get worn by physical attacks making it unable to switch to Indeedee-F. Sceptile Terrain teams are so easy to play around them, and sceptile is easily crippled by burned and trick by a choice item. While Indeedee-F can be annoying and can be a pain to fight, but it’s not ban worthy and that’s why i’m voting not to ban Indeedee-F

Contrary to your post, I don't believe that Indeedee's possible ban would be a major loss. You mention that losing Indeedee means we will lose the only great offensive Psychic-type Pokemon. This is not a valid reason whatsoever to dictate your vote, but it's your vote, not mine. We wanted Mienshao, Bewear, Pangoro, Sirfetch'd, and Machamp gone because they were all too strong for the tier, regardless of whether there was a Fighting-type to "replace" it; the tier can survive with one less Psychic-type.

You go on to mention how the other Psychic-types don't deal well against Vileplume, as Starmie doesn't run Psychic STAB, Articuno-G runs Future Sight, and Xatu is worried about Sludge Bomb. It's very much worth noting that Indeedee can't take Sludge Bomb like the others. You also seem to forget that Articuno runs Hurricane, Starmie runs Ice Beam, and Xatu runs Psychic while Magic Bounce bounces back Leech Seed and Strength Sap.

Next you talk about Dark- and Steel-types and their ability (or lack of) to switch in. I don't know why you mentioned Absol as it doesn't exist in the tier. I'm really confused about this portion as you go on to state that none of them (Drapion, Sneasel, Copper, Escav, Staka and even Scrafty and Grimm) can safely switch in on Indeedee without having some sort of back up plan. I don't know what else to say other than it may be worth rethinking your own thoughts (and rereading your words) before you go on to do a 180 and not listen to yourself.

Lastly, you mention that Sceptile teams are easy to play around, stating that Sceptile is susceptible to burn and trick. However you rarely get a chance to Trick or burn it because it will always be at at least +2 by the time you get your Talonflame, Arcanine, or Rotom-C in to burn or trick.


Indeedee-F is broken and banworthy due to its powerful STAB that is hard to switch into as well as its dangerous pairing with Sceptile, turning a mediocre sweeper into an A+ level threat. Dark-types fail to stay in against Indeedee due to Dazzling Gleam and the uncommon Hyper Voice, with the. Steel-types are the better checks, however they aren't immune to Indeedee's influence in a battle. They often rely on Wish passers to continuously eat Expanding Force. Specs sets are very potent but less reliable due to its middle of the road speed while Scarf sets are among the top revenge killers. Semi-terrain teams with Sceptile break through 97% of the tier, allowing Indeedee more space to do its thing. For all of these reasons (including the reply to Pika's post) I will be voting ban if I manage to get reqs.
 
There is no mon that can avoid the 2HKO from the wrath of a specs Indeedee, bar one, which gets 3HKOd, and has no reliable recovery. Indeedee has free psychic terrain on entry, allowing it to be a great revenge killer with a scarf, with its power and ability to not be hit with priority moves. Yet Indeedee still has more to offer. Healing wish is a godsend on offensive teams, allowing a sweeper, or wallbreaker a second chance to sweep/break the opposing team, especially against tough bulky match-ups. Trick allows it, and its teammates to easily break through walls that they would normally struggle with. In conclusion, Indeedee has 0 counters.

Yet still, I believe that Indeedee-F is not broken due to it's frailty, lack of speed without scarf, lack of power with scarf, low base power on its coverage, and the sheer amount of soft checks to it. Stakataka walls every single set, (barring the specs set) and considering it's an S rank mon, that gives indeedee a really solid check on every team. Even while on paper it may seem that specs indeedee-f has 0 switch ins, it's usually manageable with the sheer amount of mons that are faster and can OHKO it, especially with its paper thin physical defence stat. Frankly, I believe that the posts above are overstating the threat of indeedee in a game situation.

The team I used to get reqs, includes staka, mudsdale, vileplume, scarf indeedee, mantine and sylveon. 5 mons on this team can't switch into specs indeedee, and the last as staka, and it's problems are quite apparent. Yet still, I have never had trouble with indeedee, because it has such a hard time switching in. Even when it does switch in, staka can still switch in and threaten indeedee out. Even if the opposing player decides to switch, it's not hard to wish pass to stak, or even get lefties recovery with protect. Stakataka is also an incredibly threatening mon, even with its defensive set, which makes it undesirable to switch around. Hence, specs Indeedee players get button mashy, click expanding force and lose their wallbreaker. My team is an exceptionally bulky team, having 0 wallbreakers and 1 speed control mon, yet still, specs indeedee, a mon designed to break through walls, has never broken through my team.

This is glossing over the fact, that most offensive and even balance teams can play offensively, to not let indeedee in. You might think that offensive teams would get smashed by scarf indeedee, but no. AV Copperajah is a solid mon, that can easily eat mystical fires all day long, and is a pillar of the offensive teams in the meta game. Yet, if one desires to not use copperajah, they still have options. Drapion absolutely abuses scarf indeedee, taking a pittance from its moves, and being able to threaten the other team hugely after a SD boost. Articuno-G is a fantastic switch in to Indeedee, and creates huge momentum for its team, with its u-turn. The sheer amount of mons that can eat one hit from scarf indeedee, and kill back, is far too much for indeedee to be relegated to more than a role of a revenge killer, or a utility mon (with it's healing wish/trick). This list, of mons that can eat one hit from scarf indeedee, and OHKO back includes: Sivally-ground (after rocks), specs sylveon, eggy, snorlax, tsareena, aero, decidueye, dhelmise (after rocks), exploud, araquanid, golurk, the list just goes on.

TLDR: Specs is too threatened by balance, and offence teams to work, because everything outspeeds it and can OHKO it, and scarf is too weak to bulky teams, and can't even do too much against offence teams, due to the sheer number of mons that can eat one hit, and kill it back in return.


However, that doesn't mean nothing relating with Indeedee needs to be banned. We all know 'em, we all hate 'em, psychic terrain teams, with its prime sweeper being the absolutely monstrous sceptile. I've seen the above posts, by lucario, pokeslice, and pika134 all discuss about sceptile, and how hard it is to deal with it. The question I bring up is, when sceptile is the hard to deal with factor here, why is sceptile not banned? Pokeslice clearly mentions, and I quote "What pushes it over for me is terrain offense and sceptile." From this quote, what I infer (and I may be wrong) is that sceptile is the broken factor. Lucario similarly mentions how easily it can get a swords dance, and they aren't wrong. With unburden, sceptile doesn't need any speed investment. This allows it to run max hp, eating a comical amount of hits, especially with psychic seed boosting its special defence. Like this thing takes a poison jab from SD drapion. It also matches up incredibly well against the meta. To go by the viability rankings, rotom-c is set up fodder, staka dies to +2 low kick, mudsdale gets OHKOd by +2 leaf blade, Silvally-ground also gets OHKOd by +2 leaf blade, vileplume dies to +2 acro, and so on. Even mons that can take a hit, such as sylveon, mantine, xatu, escav, garticuno, can't actually deal with it. Sylveon does 30%, mantine has a 15% chance to 2HKO with hurricane, excluding hurricane accuracy, xatu does a pathetic 20%, escav can't kill sceptile without megahorn, and even garticuno fails to OHKO sceptile. Now sure, checks like talonflame, or wisp rotom-c exist, the second tflame gets knocked, and takes rocks, it dies. It also needs to be higher than 80%, to make sure it lives +2 acro. Wisp Rotom-C is also very, very niche. The highest mon on the viability rankings that can actually beat sceptile, is weezing. If weezing misses its wisp (or the sceptile user is running Lum like an absolute chad), sceptile wins the match-up, and possibly sweeps. Weezing is also a B+ mon, and makes lots of teams lose a lot of momentum, making it hard to fit on teams. Other checks, like braviary, arcanine, or even garbodor do exist, but they're literally in C+ or B-. They all suck, and can be taken advantage off. Garb has 0 reliable recovery, braviary and arcanine are very weak to toxic and knock off, and arcanine needs to hit it's wisp (or run flare blitz) to deal with sceptile, similar to the weezing complex. Sceptile does not have any counters, and all of its checks, are generally bad Pokemon in the meta game, and sceptile can overwhelm them with extreme luck, or with a good player.

"If you need Arcanine to check something, it's broken" - Lucario, 2021

TLDR: Indeedee-F is not broken, however, it enables a broken threat, sceptile, and rather than banning indeedee (which enables sceptile), it would be wiser to ban sceptile, as it seems to be the issue, while indeedee is a healthy presence in the tier.

PS: Can someone pls send the link to put reqs, Idk where it is, tysm
 
So after reading a response, I do want to fix some of problems that the original post had, while explaining some of the original points that are lacking some explanation and some points that I made are going to be change.

While Nu does have a lot of good Psychic-types, but the problem is that they lack a lot of offense power. Xatu and Articuno-Galar are still great pokemon in their own good right, but they are mainly for being defense pokemon, sure Articuno-Galar can be a great offense pokemon and it does check Poison- and Fighting-types like Weezing, Vileplume, Passimian, and Toxicroak, and Future Sight can be excellent to hit incoming opponents like Silvally-Ground, Decidueye, and Rotom-C, but the problem with Articuno is that it doesn’t like switching into Status like Burns or Toxic poison making it have to have to recover off the damage and it doesn’t like losing its Heav-Duty Boots making it vulnerable to Stealth Rock. While Xatu is still a great pokemon and can be great to bounce back any entry hazards, while poison-types like Vileplume and Weezing don‘t like getting hit by Phychic but xatu doesn’t like switching into a Sludge Bomb poison. While Xatu can always win a 1 v 1 against Stealth Rock users like Copperajah and Mudsdale but other Stealth Rock Users like Aerodactyl, Diancie, and Stakataka can destroyed Xatu but with right prediction it can block rocks from Aerodactyl and Diancie, but Stakataka can hit Xatu hard with a stab Gyro Ball but it does have to carful if it does set up rocks. The only offensive Psychic-type pokemon are Starmie and Espeon (which is both unviable and face competition as a magic bounce user from Xatu), but Starmie has problems that hold it back it gets revenge killed by Inteleon and Salazzle and choice scarf users like Rotom-C and Passimian, and it gets walled by bulky Water-types. While Mantine and Vaporeon don’t like talking a thunderbolt, but Gastrodon completely walled Starmie, and all of these have one thing in common they do not like priority moves mainly Sucker Punch. However Indeedee-F can block any priority moves while revenge killing any pokemon that attempts doing a priority moves against Indeedee-F.

Pokemon with protect can stall out Indeedee-F Psychic Surge mainly pokemon like Sylveon and Vaporeon they can both gain Hp with leftover and Wish, and can stall out the Psychic Surge. Through face against Choice Specs set they are not perfect checks they can’t switch in directly and can get hit hard, but they are mainly for to scout out what move that Indeedee-F is going to used and to switch into a pokemon that can check it. Steel-types like Stakataka, AV Copperajah, and Stunfisk-Galar can take Indeedee-F attacks and can revenge kill it with their stabs sure they have to get by Choice Specs variants but they can still take a hit and can still OHKO Indeedee-F. Even if they can get worn down by Indeedee-F teammates, Wish pokemon like Vaporeon and Sylveon are common making it easily to restored health for Stakataka and Copperajah making it more easily to survive Indeedee-F attacks, and for Dark-types they can setup or hit it if they do make the right prediction, but if they don’t make the right prediction they will get hit by Indeedee-F Stab and coverage moves.

Lastly, you mention that Sceptile teams are easy to play around, stating that Sceptile is susceptible to burn and trick. However you rarely get a chance to Trick or burn it because it will always be at at least +2 by the time you get your Talonflame, Arcanine, or Rotom-C in to burn or trick.
While this is true if you do switch into Talonflame and Rotom-C it does get a free +2 Swords dance, but they can take a +2 Acrobatics and can still burn or Trick due to Sceptile average Atk stats. While it can run Rock Slide to hit Talonflame but it will make its moveset worse because of 2 poison-types mainly Weezing and Vileplume. Weezing in particular because it can take Sceptile +2 Acrobatics while it can burned or poison, while Vileplume doesn’t like taking a boosted Acrobatics but it can survived and hit Sceptile back with Sludge Bomb, and even if it does run Rock Slide it will make it worse against Steel-types like Stakataka and Copperajah and it always need to run Low Kick or Earthquake to hit them.

(This is completely outdated) while indeedee-F is definitely a great pokemon, but I don’t think its broken and it can be check reasonable. I do agree with Kingo9629 post and after thinking all day I have decide to vote not to ban sure it can be annoying to switch if it’s running a Choice specs set but it can get outspeed and can get revenge killed or if it running a Choice Scarf it does lack raw power and it always have run timid because it can’t go for modest became it gets outspeed by other Choice Scarfer pokemon mainly Passimian and it has to run timid to outspeed it but it will make it power not strong to revenge killed threats and I do think it can be fairly check and is very healthy for the tier.

Edit: The last paragraph is now outdated and now after fighting against an annoying Indeedee-F that just destroyed my team I have reconsidered To not banning it to now banning it. While it has checks but those gets ridiculously get worn to easily and it has good bulk to Survive an attack and revenge kill a pokemon and it’s just nightmare to switch in.
 
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In conclusion, Indeedee has 0 counters.
I think your argument is pretty good but honestly this conclusion just ends the conversation for me. The few Pokemon who can tank Expanding Force are either nuked by a coverage move, lack recovery, or both. This makes playing against an Indeedee-F like walking on eggshells even after you successfully identify what set it is, as Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, and Calm Mind all demand incredibly different methods to pivoting around them. (This is similar to Rotom-Mow who actively ruins the tier with its presence imo but not the point) Indeedee's poor bulk is negated by the absurd amount of pivoting with absolutely zero commitment from namely Rotom-Mow and Silvally-Ground who both invite in Pokemon destroyed by Indeedee-F like Vileplume and Weezing. Indeedee's "poor" speed is not even bad in such a relatively slow tier, especially given it boasts a damage output that rivals the likes of Exploud and Golurk with obviously much higher speed. Going back to the topic of Indeedee-F destroying the answers to common pivots, it also completely shreds any Sceptile check. Although you can make the argument that Sceptile is broken, it is 100% enabled by Indeedee-F by both Psychic Terrain activating Psychic Seed AND Indeedee-F completely preying upon any team well-equipped for Sceptile, with solid physical walls like Arcanine, Weezing, and Talonflame completely folding to even Choice Scarf Indeedee-F, which is claimed to struggle with power issues due to not having Choice Specs or even Twisted Spoon (this is so not true you still OHKO an absurd number of offensive threats like Tauros and Talonflame even with Choice Scarf). So yes, Sceptile is "broken" and could justifiably be banned HOWEVER Indeedee-F, completely independent of Sceptile, is a proven constraint on teambuilding, much to the grievance of many SCL players and others. Indeedee-F's affect on teambuilding has seen a surplus of stacking multiple checks to it on teams just to not automatically lose to it, and although these measures usually do work, making Indeedee-F quite manageable, that certainly fits the definitions of "warping" and greatly limits how both offensive and defensive teams can be structured. an Indeedee-F ban would both alleviate many constraints in teambuilding, and greatly reduce Sceptile's splashability and viability in the tier. This is an obvious double win for the tier and an obvious ban.

While this is true if you do switch into Talonflame and Rotom-C it does get a free +2 Swords dance, but they can take a +2 Acrobatics and can still burn or Trick due to Sceptile average Atk stats. While it can run Rock Slide to hit Talonflame but it will make its moveset worse because of 2 poison-types mainly Weezing and Vileplume. Weezing in particular because it can take Sceptile +2 Acrobatics while it can burned or poison, while Vileplume doesn’t like taking a boosted Acrobatics but it can survived and hit Sceptile back with Sludge Bomb, and even if it does run Rock Slide it will make it worse against Steel-types like Stakataka and Copperajah and it always need to run Low Kick or Earthquake to hit them.
So you have to keep these two metagame staples Talonflame and Rotom-Mow at COMPLETELY full HP the entire game until Sceptile hits the field, effectively making you play a 5v6 the entire game... Weezing is one single Pokemon that Sceptile can still effectively 1v1 at the expense of its own life, completely opening the door for other physical attackers. Other checks like Arcanine and Escavalier also need to remain at perfect HP. This not only creates a huge restraint in the builder but also in the game itself. Denying Sceptile being broken is simply not in the conversation anymore, this is a matter of how do we properly target it, being banning Sceptile or Indeedee-F, and the council decided Indeedee-F was the best direction to take, so I recommend that if people want to fix the tier they vote ban.
 
I think your argument is pretty good but honestly this conclusion just ends the conversation for me. The few Pokemon who can tank Expanding Force are either nuked by a coverage move, lack recovery, or both. This makes playing against an Indeedee-F like walking on eggshells even after you successfully identify what set it is, as Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, and Calm Mind all demand incredibly different methods to pivoting around them. (This is similar to Rotom-Mow who actively ruins the tier with its presence imo but not the point) Indeedee's poor bulk is negated by the absurd amount of pivoting with absolutely zero commitment from namely Rotom-Mow and Silvally-Ground who both invite in Pokemon destroyed by Indeedee-F like Vileplume and Weezing. Indeedee's "poor" speed is not even bad in such a relatively slow tier, especially given it boasts a damage output that rivals the likes of Exploud and Golurk with obviously much higher speed. Going back to the topic of Indeedee-F destroying the answers to common pivots, it also completely shreds any Sceptile check. Although you can make the argument that Sceptile is broken, it is 100% enabled by Indeedee-F by both Psychic Terrain activating Psychic Seed AND Indeedee-F completely preying upon any team well-equipped for Sceptile, with solid physical walls like Arcanine, Weezing, and Talonflame completely folding to even Choice Scarf Indeedee-F, which is claimed to struggle with power issues due to not having Choice Specs or even Twisted Spoon (this is so not true you still OHKO an absurd number of offensive threats like Tauros and Talonflame even with Choice Scarf). So yes, Sceptile is "broken" and could justifiably be banned HOWEVER Indeedee-F, completely independent of Sceptile, is a proven constraint on teambuilding, much to the grievance of many SCL players and others. Indeedee-F's affect on teambuilding has seen a surplus of stacking multiple checks to it on teams just to not automatically lose to it, and although these measures usually do work, making Indeedee-F quite manageable, that certainly fits the definitions of "warping" and greatly limits how both offensive and defensive teams can be structured. an Indeedee-F ban would both alleviate many constraints in teambuilding, and greatly reduce Sceptile's splashability and viability in the tier. This is an obvious double win for the tier and an obvious ban.


So you have to keep these two metagame staples Talonflame and Rotom-Mow at COMPLETELY full HP the entire game until Sceptile hits the field, effectively making you play a 5v6 the entire game... Weezing is one single Pokemon that Sceptile can still effectively 1v1 at the expense of its own life, completely opening the door for other physical attackers. Other checks like Arcanine and Escavalier also need to remain at perfect HP. This not only creates a huge restraint in the builder but also in the game itself. Denying Sceptile being broken is simply not in the conversation anymore, this is a matter of how do we properly target it, being banning Sceptile or Indeedee-F, and the council decided Indeedee-F was the best direction to take, so I recommend that if people want to fix the tier they vote ban.
Okay you do have a fair point and trying to get Talonflame and Rotom-C at full health can be problem since they are face against indeedee-f teammates and after thinking and seeing your post I think your right Indeedee-F by its self it’s the most annoying mon to switch in and it just a nightmare to fight so that’s why I’m voting it ban off the tier and also I did edit my post from not banning it to now Banning it
 
Dunno if I'll be getting reqs or not (believe me, I'm tryin'), but it seems right to give my input anyway.
To start, let's examine potential defensive checks to Indeedee and how they fare against her different sets.

:Stakataka:

Can hold off scarf sets well enough, only takes one Expanding Force from specs before not being able to switch in again. Can get dicey against CM variants.

:snorlax:

Needs to be at 100% to even have a chance at tanking two hits from specs. Can usually force out other variants.

:copperajah:

Similar to Staka, though lack of fire neutrality is detrimental. Somewhat worse as a check overall.

:escavalier:

Takes other moves reasonably well, loses miserably to Mystical Fire (aka all variants). Inadvisable to run this as your sole Indeedee check.

:sylveon:/:vaporeon:

Vapo gets chunked by scarf, usually forced to Wish or Protect immediately after. Sylveon fares better but still falls into a predictable line of play. Both lose terribly to specs and CM.

:guzzlord:

Handles other moves, dies to Dgleam. Same boat as Escav: useful as an EF deterrent, but not a reliable stop on its own.

:drapion:

Alright against scarf and CM (though not great long-term), can't switch into specs more than once.

:grimmsnarl:

Basically Guzzlord, except this doesn't take other moves nearly as well. Also notably less viable compared to other options.

:scrafty:

Same sitch as Guzzlord... again.

Note: most if not all of these are vulnerable to trick from scarf variants.


Are ya beginning to see a pattern here? Indeedee's counterplay is pretty minimal, and what little there is can crumple either from guessing the wrong set or just a single misprediction. Potential offensive checks get run over by scarf, and slower teams often fail to other variants. As a wallbreaker, wallbreaking is indeed (no pun intended) Indeedee's job, but it forces structures that stack multiple checks just to avoid losing off the rip. That's a fairly obvious sign of a metagame warping mon, especially when considering other breakers of similar power in the tier and how much they lack in comparison.

To address the other grievance I have with this thing, let's talk about :sceptile: next.

Put bluntly, Sceptile is cracked because of Indeedee. Indeedee naturally crushes the few things that usually stand in its way (think Talonflame, Weezing, etc), and with the combo of Psychic Seed + Unburden, Sceptile becomes a blisteringly fast, hard-to-wall threat after a single SD. It's just way too much, on top of Indeedee mandating select mons (Staka, Copper, etc) that Sceptile has an easier time getting around than say, Escav. You're basically down the entire game if you wanna preserve whatever check you have in the hopes of maybe not losing then and there, too, so there's that.

If I hadn't made it abundantly clear, I'm in favor of a ban.
 
Not much to add to what others said regarding this broken mon, would like to remind people this mon has access to a second STAB move tho. Specs HVoice is a roll to kill drap from full, guaranteed with rocks up. It also does 35 minimum to guzzlord, 40 minimum to scrafty, again, not factoring rocks, spikes, status damage, crits etc. I think it’s a much better option on specs sets, more consistent than dgleam at the very least.
 

Elfuseon

is a Top Tiering Contributor
RUPL Champion
I'm prob just blind or too dumb to understand the last sentence of the thread intro, but the suspect identification alt thread will be opened after the 2 weeks of the suspect?
 
Not much to add to what others said regarding this broken mon, would like to remind people this mon has access to a second STAB move tho. Specs HVoice is a roll to kill drap from full, guaranteed with rocks up. It also does 35 minimum to guzzlord, 40 minimum to scrafty, again, not factoring rocks, spikes, status damage, crits etc. I think it’s a much better option on specs sets, more consistent than dgleam at the very least.
I think this is also the only thing I would like to add: I have been using specs with hyper voice during the suspect laddering and honestly, it makes it even easier to click moves versus teams who rely on dark types (especially drap). If the opponent has a steel + dark to handle indd, clicking hyper voice as opposed to dgleam makes the whole predicament much easier, as even steels take decent chip from it, and drapion gets absolutely wrecked. Definitely voting ban on this one.
 
:ss/indeedee-f:
I'm not going to bother typing an entire essay on why Indeede-F should be banned because I'm too lazy. But clearly Indeedee-F is too broken to continue to be legal in the NU metagame due to its Psychic Terrain and Expanding Force, as well as close to no counters because of Mystical Fire and Dazzling Gleam.

Edit: I tested Indeedee-F myself (because I only know this from people using Indeedee-F against me in a battle), and I swept entire teams with that thing. This clearly cannot stay in the NU tier any longer, especially if it's capable of sweeping entire teams in a matter of only a few minutes.

In conclusion, Indeedee-F is way too broken for NU and needs to be banned.
 
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There is no mon that can avoid the 2HKO from the wrath of a specs Indeedee, bar one, which gets 3HKOd, and has no reliable recovery. Indeedee has free psychic terrain on entry, allowing it to be a great revenge killer with a scarf, with its power and ability to not be hit with priority moves. Yet Indeedee still has more to offer. Healing wish is a godsend on offensive teams, allowing a sweeper, or wallbreaker a second chance to sweep/break the opposing team, especially against tough bulky match-ups. Trick allows it, and its teammates to easily break through walls that they would normally struggle with. In conclusion, Indeedee has 0 counters.

Yet still, I believe that Indeedee-F is not broken due to it's frailty, lack of speed without scarf, lack of power with scarf, low base power on its coverage, and the sheer amount of soft checks to it. Stakataka walls every single set, (barring the specs set) and considering it's an S rank mon, that gives indeedee a really solid check on every team. Even while on paper it may seem that specs indeedee-f has 0 switch ins, it's usually manageable with the sheer amount of mons that are faster and can OHKO it, especially with its paper thin physical defence stat. Frankly, I believe that the posts above are overstating the threat of indeedee in a game situation.

The team I used to get reqs, includes staka, mudsdale, vileplume, scarf indeedee, mantine and sylveon. 5 mons on this team can't switch into specs indeedee, and the last as staka, and it's problems are quite apparent. Yet still, I have never had trouble with indeedee, because it has such a hard time switching in. Even when it does switch in, staka can still switch in and threaten indeedee out. Even if the opposing player decides to switch, it's not hard to wish pass to stak, or even get lefties recovery with protect. Stakataka is also an incredibly threatening mon, even with its defensive set, which makes it undesirable to switch around. Hence, specs Indeedee players get button mashy, click expanding force and lose their wallbreaker. My team is an exceptionally bulky team, having 0 wallbreakers and 1 speed control mon, yet still, specs indeedee, a mon designed to break through walls, has never broken through my team.

This is glossing over the fact, that most offensive and even balance teams can play offensively, to not let indeedee in. You might think that offensive teams would get smashed by scarf indeedee, but no. AV Copperajah is a solid mon, that can easily eat mystical fires all day long, and is a pillar of the offensive teams in the meta game. Yet, if one desires to not use copperajah, they still have options. Drapion absolutely abuses scarf indeedee, taking a pittance from its moves, and being able to threaten the other team hugely after a SD boost. Articuno-G is a fantastic switch in to Indeedee, and creates huge momentum for its team, with its u-turn. The sheer amount of mons that can eat one hit from scarf indeedee, and kill back, is far too much for indeedee to be relegated to more than a role of a revenge killer, or a utility mon (with it's healing wish/trick). This list, of mons that can eat one hit from scarf indeedee, and OHKO back includes: Sivally-ground (after rocks), specs sylveon, eggy, snorlax, tsareena, aero, decidueye, dhelmise (after rocks), exploud, araquanid, golurk, the list just goes on.

TLDR: Specs is too threatened by balance, and offence teams to work, because everything outspeeds it and can OHKO it, and scarf is too weak to bulky teams, and can't even do too much against offence teams, due to the sheer number of mons that can eat one hit, and kill it back in return.


However, that doesn't mean nothing relating with Indeedee needs to be banned. We all know 'em, we all hate 'em, psychic terrain teams, with its prime sweeper being the absolutely monstrous sceptile. I've seen the above posts, by lucario, pokeslice, and pika134 all discuss about sceptile, and how hard it is to deal with it. The question I bring up is, when sceptile is the hard to deal with factor here, why is sceptile not banned? Pokeslice clearly mentions, and I quote "What pushes it over for me is terrain offense and sceptile." From this quote, what I infer (and I may be wrong) is that sceptile is the broken factor. Lucario similarly mentions how easily it can get a swords dance, and they aren't wrong. With unburden, sceptile doesn't need any speed investment. This allows it to run max hp, eating a comical amount of hits, especially with psychic seed boosting its special defence. Like this thing takes a poison jab from SD drapion. It also matches up incredibly well against the meta. To go by the viability rankings, rotom-c is set up fodder, staka dies to +2 low kick, mudsdale gets OHKOd by +2 leaf blade, Silvally-ground also gets OHKOd by +2 leaf blade, vileplume dies to +2 acro, and so on. Even mons that can take a hit, such as sylveon, mantine, xatu, escav, garticuno, can't actually deal with it. Sylveon does 30%, mantine has a 15% chance to 2HKO with hurricane, excluding hurricane accuracy, xatu does a pathetic 20%, escav can't kill sceptile without megahorn, and even garticuno fails to OHKO sceptile. Now sure, checks like talonflame, or wisp rotom-c exist, the second tflame gets knocked, and takes rocks, it dies. It also needs to be higher than 80%, to make sure it lives +2 acro. Wisp Rotom-C is also very, very niche. The highest mon on the viability rankings that can actually beat sceptile, is weezing. If weezing misses its wisp (or the sceptile user is running Lum like an absolute chad), sceptile wins the match-up, and possibly sweeps. Weezing is also a B+ mon, and makes lots of teams lose a lot of momentum, making it hard to fit on teams. Other checks, like braviary, arcanine, or even garbodor do exist, but they're literally in C+ or B-. They all suck, and can be taken advantage off. Garb has 0 reliable recovery, braviary and arcanine are very weak to toxic and knock off, and arcanine needs to hit it's wisp (or run flare blitz) to deal with sceptile, similar to the weezing complex. Sceptile does not have any counters, and all of its checks, are generally bad Pokemon in the meta game, and sceptile can overwhelm them with extreme luck, or with a good player.

"If you need Arcanine to check something, it's broken" - Lucario, 2021

TLDR: Indeedee-F is not broken, however, it enables a broken threat, sceptile, and rather than banning indeedee (which enables sceptile), it would be wiser to ban sceptile, as it seems to be the issue, while indeedee is a healthy presence in the tier.

PS: Can someone pls send the link to put reqs, Idk where it is, tysm
My position on Indeedee
Let me start off by saying that I will be voting ban. This will not be the focus of my post, but for the sake of transparency this is what I believe in very brief terms:
- I do not think that Indeedee is uncompetitive - i.e. that it reduces "the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that more skillful play is almost always rendered irrelevant."
- I do not believe that Indeedee is broken - i.e. that it is "too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that more skillful play is almost always rendered irrelevant"
- But I do believe that Indeedee has an unhealthy effect on the meta - i.e. that it has an "undesirable effect on the meta" such to the extent where it "inhibits skillfull play to a large degree".


The purpose of this post: the issue of incoherent arguments
With that out of the way, I want to focus on something slightly different: incoherent arguments. I think many posts suffer from a lack of coherence. Many users have a tendency to go off on tangents and lose track of their thoughts, which in turn results in them presenting fallacious arguments. The most typical mistake is to draw conclusions which do not naturally follow from the premises that have been presented. People are particularly prone to making this error when they make longer posts. The result is that it is difficult for the reader to follow the argument, thereby weakening the argument and making it more difficult to engage with. However, in most cases this could be solved quite easily if the posters were made aware of this tendency.

The purpose of this post is thus to make users aware of this tendency to make incoherent arguments. My hope is that this will enable us all to make posts that are coherent and thus easy to understand. To this end I want to focus on the arguments presented by Kingo. Let me preface this by saying that I appreciate the effort that Kingo put into their post. I think such high-effort posts are valuable, and I hope that you and other users continue to make them. This is also part of the reason why I picked this post. I think it is decent, but some things remain unclear, and I think it could be improved significantly with a few small changes. Thus, without further ado, let us take a closer look at the main arguments that Kingo makes:

Main Argument 1: "Specs Indeedee is too threatened by balance and offence to work"
Premise 1: Specs Indeedee has no counters.
Premise 2: Specs Indeedee has many offensive checks - many mons outspeed it and ko it.
Premise 3: I have always beaten Specs Indeedee with my own slow balance team because my opponents started mashing buttons.
Premise 4: Offense and balance can play aggressively to prevent Indeedee from getting in.
Conclusion: Specs Indeedee is too threatened by balance and offence to work.

My critique
This argument is arguably based on true premises - at least if we add some goodwill. Most people would agree that it has no true counters, but that we do have access to many offensive checks (mons that beat it 1v1). Granted, you might be slightly overstating how many mons outspeed Indeedee, as it does outspeed the majority of the metagame. Anyway, it is also true that offense and balance can play aggressively to prevent Indeedee from getting in position to claim a kill - at least to some degree. This is admittedly easier for offense to do, as it tends to have plenty of mons that outspeed Specs Indedee, whereas balance typically only has one or two mons that outspeed it. Moreover, offense can take advantage of choice-locked Indeedee to set up and make progress or sweep, whereas balance is not as good at punishing choice-locked Indeedee. Nevertheless, the premise can still be said to be true (or at least partly true) if we add some goodwill. Further, it may well be true that you have always beaten Specs Indeedee with your balance team. Granted, I would probably leave out the part about how your opponents got frustrated and started mashing buttons since this leaves the reader with the impression that you only won those games because your opponent played poorly.

However, even if we grant that the premises are true, this line of argument does not make sense. This is because the conclusion does not naturally follow from its premises. We may have access to offensive checks, we may be able to play aggressively vs Indeedee, and it may be possible to beat Indeedee with a slow balance team, but this does not mean that Indeedee "is too threatened by balance and offence to work." You have not done anything to prove that Indeede does not work. Saying that it does not work indicates that you believe that it is not viable. This is surely not what you meant, and it certainly does not follow from your premises. Hence, it makes no sense to conclude that "Specs Indeedee is too threatened by balance and offence to work."

My proposed solution: The argument could be made logically valid with one simple trick - changing the conclusion. You have done a decent job of providing premises which support the idea that Specs Indeedee is not broken. You should thus be drawing this conclusion. Further, you could benefit from changing the latter two premises slightly, for reasons discussed above. The argument could thus be made to look like this:

Premise 1: Specs Indeedee has no counters.
Premise 2: Specs Indeedee has many offensive checks.
Premise 3: Offensive teams generally have a decent matchup versus Indeedee.
Premise 4: Bulkier teams struggle with Indeedee, but can win versus it if you pilot them well.
Conclusion: Specs Indeedee is not broken because we have sufficient offensive counterplay.


Main Argument 2: "Scarf is too weak to bulky teams and can't even do too much against offence"
Premise 1: Scarf Indeedee is a great revenge killer.
Premise 2: Scarf Indeedee can use HW to bring back a teammate which may in turn sweep.
Premise 3: Scarf Indeedee can use HW to bring back a wallbreaker to make more progress versus bulkier teams.
Premise 4: Scarf Indeedee can make progress against bulky teams with Trick.
Premise 5: Scarf Indeedee has several decent defensive switchins.
Premise 6: Scarf Indeedee has many offensive checks - many mons can eat a hit and kill in return.
Conclusion: Scarf is too weak to bulky teams and can't even do too much against offence

My critique
Again, your premises are true but your conclusion is fallacious. In fact, the conclusion directly contradicts its premises: you posit that Scarf Indeedee can make progress versus bulkier teams with Trick and help its teammates do so with HW, but you conclude that it is "too weak to bulky teams". In a similar vein, you posit that Scarf Indeedee is a great revenge killer that can help its teammates sweep with HW, yet you conclude that it "can't even do too much against offence". This does not follow. The conclusion is not supported by its premises. You are seemingly pulling it out of nowhere. This weakens your argument significantly.

My proposed solution: Again, I would simply change the conclusion. You have provided premises which support the argument that Scarf Indeede is not broken. Based on your premises, one would be lead to believe that Indeedee is a great mon, but that we have sufficient defensive and offensive counterplay for it (in the form of several defensive switchins and many offensive checks). Your argument would therefore be logically valid if you concluded that "Scarf Indeedee is not broken because we have sufficient defensive and offensive counterplay".

Main Argument 3: Sceptile is broken
Premise 1: Psychic Terrain teams are broken or unhealthy, not specified
Premise 2: Sceptile is what makes psychic terrains teams broken/unhealthy
Premise 3: Sceptile has no counters.
Premise 4: All of its checks are generally bad Pokemon.
Conclusion: Sceptile is broken.

My critique
This argument is almost logically valid. Granted, you merely allude to Psychic Terrain being broken or unhealthy - it would probably be better to explicitly state that you believe it to be broken or that you see it as unhealthy, and to then make the argument in favor of this position. At the moment, you merely take it for granted that Psychic Terrain is problematic in some sense, and then turn towards arguing that Sceptile is what pushes it over the edge. Nevertheless, this argument is much easier to follow than the former arguments.

However, some of the premises of this argument are false. It is not true that Sceptile has no counters. In fact, you name them yourself - Talon, Xatu, Guno, Escav, Arcanine, Weezing, Garbodor, and Arcanine. Talon eats +2 Acro and OHKOs max HP Scept with BB after SR (you may also EV it to KO from full). As for Xatu, it is wrong that it "does a pathetic 20%". Foul Play always OHKOs Scep after Helmet damage, even if it has max HP investments. Foul Play also hits SD Ground/Steelvally, Golurk, and Copperajah for significant damage, so it is by no means a weird move to run. In fact, it is arguably the standard (has seen lots of tour usage). Further, you scoff at the thought of running Megahorn on Escav, but this is unreasonable. If your team is otherwise weak to Sceptile and you happen to have an Escav, why would you not use the move that allows you to beat it reliably? Moreover, Megahorn is a strong stab move which among other things hits Guzzlord, so it really is not outlandish to use this move at all. Indeed, it is arguably one of the best moves on it. As for Arcanine, it does not necessarily need Blitz to beat Sceptile (assuming Low Kick and not EQ). Flamethrower always 2HKOs max HP +1 Spdef Sceptile after SR, while +1 Acro does less than 40 in return. That being said, if you find yourself being super weak to EQ Scep, then there is nothing wrong with using Flare Blitz Arc. Regarding Guno, you claim that it does not ko Scep, but Modest Guno always OHKOs max hp +1 Scep after SR. It also bears mentioning that Weezing is only 3HKOd by +2 Acro after SR, whereas Sludge Bomb 2hkos after Helmet, so it does not necessarily need to rely on Wisp if it has been kept healthy. Finally, it is not true that these mons are bad. Most of them are solid and relatively splashable. I would personally argue that Arc and Garb are the most difficult to fit on teams, but I think we can have reasonable disagreements over the splashability of the aforementioned mons. That being said, you are right to point out that some of the most reliable answers to Scep relies on inaccurate moves: Guno relies on Cane, Escav relies on Megahorn, and Garb relies on Gunk. Still, the argument falls apart when several of its premises are false.

My proposed solution: Firstly, I would specify whether I believe that psychic terrain is broken or unhealthy. Secondly, I would remove the false premises (P3 and P4). We would then be left with the following argument:
Premise 1: Psychic Terrain teams are broken.
Premise 2: Sceptile is what makes Psychic Terrains teams broken.
Conclusion: Sceptile is broken.

This is an example of a logically valid argument. Of course, you would also need to provide some evidence to support the notion that Sceptile is what pushes Psychic Terrain over the edge. In doing so, you should refrain from exaggerating. You might think that this makes your argument more convincing, but the true effect is the opposite.

Main Argument 4: We should ban Sceptile.
Premise 1: Indeedee is not broken - it is a healthy presence.
Premise 2: Indeedee enables Sceptile.
Premise 3: Sceptile is broken.
Conclusion: We should ban Sceptile.

My critique
In this argument you make a new mistake - two of your premises directly contradict each other. P1 posits that Indeedee is a healthy presence, but P2 posits that it enables Sceptile - a mon which you consider to be broken. This is incoherent. If it enables a mon that is broken, i.e. if it is what makes a mon broken, then clearly it is not a healthy presence! You either believe that Indeedee is healthy, or you believe that it enables a broken element. It is logically inconsistent to hold both positions simultaneously.

You also make the mistake of conflating the two terms broken and unhealthy. I am happy to see that you now posit that "Indeede is not broken" (rather than being unable to work), but sadly you jump straight to saying that it is a healthy presence. These two things are not the same! A mon can be either uncompetitive or unhealthy without being broken. In this instance, I personally believe that Indeedee is unhealthy, despite not being broken. Of course, the point here is not that you need to agree with me. You are free to believe that Sceptile is broken and that Indeedee is healthy. But your premises does not support this conclusion!

My proposed solution: I would simply remove premise 2. I would also add another premise - that we should ban broken elements. This is implied, but never stated. But this is arguably just nitpicking. Anyway, if we were to do so, we would be left with the following argument:
Premise 1: Indeedee is not broken.
Premise 2: Sceptile is broken.
Premise 3: We should ban elements that are broken.
Conclusion: We should ban Sceptile.

This an example of a logically valid argument - the conclusion naturally follows from its premises. As such, if we assume that the premises are true, then the conclusion must necesarily also be true. We may then turn towards exploring whether the premises are actually true. Personally I disagree, but that is fine. Disagreement and constructive engagement is a good thing.

Concluding remarks
The purpose of this post was no to nitpick, but to highlight a very common error. What stood out the most to me were Argument 1 and 2. In these arguments, Kingo took the time to lay forth mostly true premises, but undermined the argument by drawing conclusions which did not follow from those premises. Another thing that stood out to me was the tendency to exaggerate. Kingo could have concluded that "Specs Indeedee is not broken because we have sufficient offensive counterplay", and that "Scarf Indeedee is not broken because we have sufficient defensive and offensive counterplay". However, they instead concluded that "Specs Indeedee is too threatened by balance and offence to work", and that "Scarf is too weak to bulky teams and can't even do too much against offence". In other words, Kingo ended up being tempted into drawing exaggerated conclusions which did not follow from their premises, thereby undermining the argument. This is a common issue on this site, but I hope that my post can be a first step towards dealing with it.
 
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