Metagame np: NU Stage 15 - The Climb | Baton Pass Banned

Comparing the most recent ban to this potential one, I think there are some very distinct differences (besides the obvious). Combusken / any speed pass was very versatile in the sense that it could pass to anything and arguably make it better. Great checks for this included things like haze mantine / gastrodon which would neuter the pass and could sway momentum. Haze, clear smog, and maybe a few others someone could chime in on were the checks to that strategy. Tauros on the other hand, uses great initial power to blow through teams. Both are scary, but what is the difference? Tauros has checks erisia already linked, while speed pass needed haze, clear smog, or some other strategy to stop it. Tomato Tamato right? Except people rarely carried those moves on their team just to stop speed passing. Everytime I go in and spectate teambuilding workshops (before combusken was banned) the one running the workshops always stresses for a blanket normal check. Rarely did I ever see them prepare for passes.

I'm not a very old player so when I read someone talk about sneasel and gallade being in the tier and getting banned that sounds like the current situation, how do they compare? Were gallade and sneasel as overbearing as tauros, or is tauros considerably less potent than the last generation of NU threats?
 
What makes Tauros different than other suspects in the past is the quality of its checks. Whereas other suspects have forced players run more niche Pokemon to deal with them (see, Mantine in the Typh MRupt meta and Sliggoo in the Sceptile meta), Tauros has a large number of checks that perform valuable roles outside of checking Tauros. Things like Regirock, Carracosta, Steelix, Weezing, and Garbodor all perform valuable roles as normal checks, Flying checks, stealth rockers in the former three's case, Fire checks in the former two's case, and general physical attacker checks beyond just checking Tauros. There are more obscure options, like Bronzor, but you don't have to resort to those if you don't want to to check Tauros. Sure, you may need two normal checks on some balance teams, but I don't feel that this is such a huge constraint on teambuilding and that banning Tauros would change this much. Additionally, I would argue that it's very hard to deal with all of Taurus's checks in one team slot. Equake Hariyama probably comes closest, but it misses out on Weezing. Overall, I personally don't feel like NU has a problem at this point and that banning Tauros would improve the tier. I also don't find Tauros broken, and while it has contributed to some centralization, I believe that's more due to the large amount of strong physical attackers in the tier that happen to share similar checks rather than the sole presence of Tauros. No Ban
 

Kiyo

the cowboy kid
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I'll be hosting a suspect tour this Sunday July 17th at 3PM EST. The winner will be guaranteed voting requirements and other places have the potential to earn reqs depending on the size of the tournament (see past suspect tours for a better idea) Sign-ups will be posted in the live tournaments sub-forum and games will take place on the Smogtours server. We're likely going to do one more suspect tour after this, but we're still working out the details.
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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I'll be hosting another suspect tour this Friday July 22nd at 4PM EST. The winner will be guaranteed voting requirements and other places have the potential to earn reqs depending on the size of the tournament (see past suspect tours for a better idea) Sign-ups will be posted in the live tournaments sub-forum and games will take place on the Smogtours server.
 

Lacus Clyne

Given-Taken
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I can only talk from my experience I had from two NU suspects ladders. So I have used Tauros myself and I gotta agree that this Pokémon is indeed powerful and has the strengh to 2HKO most of the NU Pokémon, but there were some major flaws about Tauros. There are enough checks out there who are capeable of checking Tauros and use the next turn to their advantage by setting rocks, spreading status or even doubling out. Hence it shouldn't be difficult to handle Tauros unless you use some HO team who often lack the Tauros check. Another thing I realized is that its really hard to switch Tauros in. You always have to fear status which cripples Tauros immediately. In a tier were 30% status moves are always active it shouldn't be too hard to pull that off. You could U-Turn or Volt Switch into Tauros but you gotta bet that your Pokémon is slower so you won't take the hit with Tauros. So I think I will go with No Ban.
 

doomsday doink

v̶̱̅i̵̢̕l̶̦̈́ļ̵͗a̷̙̓g̸͈͝ę̵̎ ̵̱̌g̷̭͆û̷̦a̵̰͛ȓ̶̜d̸
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Whoever picked the song for this suspect is both clever as hell and a terrible human being. I approve of "Bulls on Parade" or even "Jealousy" by Run with Bulls.

This line is here to make this post two lines.

Oh my lord, is this a third line? Mambo, you animal, you.

I will use my fourth line to talk about how Tauros is weak to Toxic Spikes and therefore incapable of defeating a well-built Pressure Articuno stall squad.

Five golden riiiiiiiiiings!

My sixth line is dedicated to the various priority users in the metagame that can revenge Tauros with no issue (Kangaskhan, Hitmonchan, Shiftry, BD Mach Punch Magmortar)

My seventh line will highlight the viable Pokemon that can outspeed Tauros and revenge it (Swellow, Floatzel, Purugly, Swoobat)

My eighth line will shine a spotlight on the plethora of Pokemon that can switch into its onslaught of coverage (Regirock, Musharna, ...wait, that's it?? Hot diggity)

My ninth line will be a link to my YouTube channel, please subscribe even though I don't regularly produce content. My channel is superior to Kiyo's.

My tenth line is a tribute to the best Tauros answer in the metagame, Misdreavus. I utilize it on my infamous Pressure Articuno stall squad and it deserves more recognition.

My eleventh line is a shoutout to my friend ryan. Hi ryan!

My twelfth line is to acknowledge that ryan himself posted a one liner about not posting one liners.

I am the player the NU council deserves, but not the one it needs right now. I guess I'll stick to dominating the Good Noodle competition.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Ok so I don't want to be that guy who starts talking about the next suspect after we just finished one (smh when Tauros did not get banned...) and that we will be getting a tier shift soon, but I feel in this case it is appropriate...

cooltext196676872939985.png



So Jynx is a powerful sweeper that has been getting a lot of attention lately after many recent meta shifts and previous bans that have all benefited its prominence as a top tier threat. The main gripe I have with Jynx in the current meta is very similar to how I felt Jynx affected the BW2 NU meta in which it becomes very difficult to regain the offensive momentum from the Jynx user thanks to Sleep + Substitute/Nasty Plot screwing over many of Jynx's would be checks/counters in Skunktank, Mega Audino, Lanturn, Malamar, etc.. Another issue when facing Jynx is its incredible ability in Dry Skin which enables it to effectively invalidate one of the most primary formes of priority in the NU tier in Aqua Jet and also grants Jynx many switchin opportunities which can greatly change the tide of the match.

Jynx is not a unbeatable presence in the meta however as its decent 95 Speed stat does not allow it to outspeed faster offensive threats in Swellow, Tauros, Pyroar, Scarfed Rotom, etc and its abysmal Defense stat only compounds this issue. It is also pressed for moveslots at times as picking between Substitute to give it more chances to setup or Psychock to let it beat checks like Magmortar and Lanturn can be situational. It is also weak to some of the most common attacking types in the tier in Fire, Dark, Ghost, and Steel which does not help it survive certain moves all to well.

I just wanted to express my personal concerns on my Jynx's influence on the meta and to decipher whether or not it is healthy or not with other component players (I am personally leaning for it to get suspected).
 
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Feel free to discuss a potential Jynx suspect as much as you'd all like. We will definitely not be holding any suspects until at least a while after tier shifts occur at the beginning of August, but I encourage discussion on anything you all feel might be worthy of a suspect except for outlandish stuff (like we aren't suspecting Lovely Kiss or anything like that).
 
Personally, I don't think Jynx is too overbearing for the tier, but I suppose I wouldn't be averse to a suspect test. To me, Jynx just isn't that bad to deal with, what with its weakness to rocks and paltry physical defense, it's very easy to wear down, especially when you consider how many strong physical attackers there are that out speed it or have priority (Tauros, Archeops, Hitmonchan, Swellow, Scyther, Kangaskhan, Hariyama, almost any Sucker Punch user). Sure, Jynx can run Sub or Scarf to deal with some of these issues, but it can never run both, and once you figure out which set it is, it isn't that bad to deal with. I also feel like it needs to run Life Orb to really put the dent it wants to in teams, but then it loses out on the utility of Sash or Scarf. Overall, while Jynx is definitely a threatening Pokemon, I don't think it's broken since it has to choose between out speeding things that threaten it offensively and breaking its walls down.
 

Pilo

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There's no denying that Jynx is very powerful in the current NU metagame. It still has a few switch ins but a lot of those are very situational and at times inconsistent. For example, Skuntank can easily switch in on a Psyshock but it gets nuked by Ice Beam and Jynx can easily burn its Lum Berry with Lovely Kiss on the switch, allowing it to Lovely Kiss again risk-free. While there are also good ice resists like Mag and Hariyama but they both fall relatively easily to a Psyshock. In fact, one of the only GSI to Jynx is Bronzor, a flavour of the month mon who (unlike a lot of Tauros' checks) doesn't have a very favourable position in the meta right now. Bronzor also suffers from its overly passive nature and is very susceptible to Knock Off so it's hard to justify it as anything else but a gimmicky Jynx check.

Another thing people have brought up is Jynx's immunity to Aqua Jet. While it is a huge boon and is very useful against teams that rely on mons like rott and kabu to take out setup sweepers Aqua Jet is not the tier's only form of priority. Jynx's second rate defenses mean it will crumble easily when hit with a priority attack which is a considerable weakness. Jynx is also vulnerable to entry hazards which break its sash and wear it down very quickly, severely limiting its effectiveness.

Jynx also sits at a very comfortable speed tier and runs a very potent scarf set outspeeding the entire unboosted meta as well as other potent scarfers such as rotom and deterring would be revenge killers. However, this set lacks the wallbreaking power of NP set and vice versa. In addition, Jynx can run a Sub set. But, if it chooses to do so it is required to forego one of its moves, whether it be the power to abuse Lovely Kiss of Set up with NP. While each set circumvents another's weaknesses, it also has a weakness of its own. This isn't to say however that Jynx is underpowered, not by any means. With most of its checks gone from the tier, stellar offensive stats, a decent speed tier, and the ability to abuse sleep, Jynx is incredibly overbearing in the current NU meta and while I'm not sure it should be banned on the spot I would say it definitely deserves a suspect.
 

yogi

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I don't find jynx a mon that is 'overbearing' or 'broken' as such, due to how frail it is and that it doesn't have the best speed tier, rather a good one. My issue concerning jynx arises in match-ups. It can also do something any game, but if the opponent has a bad match-up against jynx, they are going to struggle massively; more-so than with any other mon we currently have due to it not having any (bar Bronzor and Metang) switchins. It comes down to almost an element of chance, especially when it's immune to 1 priority (aqua jet), resists another (ice shard) and can play around sucker punch with a combination of sub+lovely kiss. If you don't have a priority user that can hit it or a mon capable of revenge killing it then it'll most likely shred your team; not to mention you may have to outright sac a mon just to bring it said priority user/fast revenge killer. Also having a reliable form of sleep in which the mons that can absorb it die to its stabs also makes it troublesome to deal with.

I think in the future it should be suspected.
 
The worst thing about jynx is how it can force the opponent into a bad position. If your jynx/ice check is slower than jynx itself at best it is put to sleep. If it is sub jynx it will keep putting you to sleep till it dies and it is behind a sub. If the poke currently out is slower than jynx AND will die to ice beam, then it gets a free ice beam, so you can switch to your faster poke after, or you switch in your ice resist and the previous scenario happens again. Now we know there are some pokes with abilities and resists like magmortar or bronzor that can change what Ive said, but across the board when jynx comes in it does damage, big time. Obviously sleep misses can happen, but from the tauros discussion seems like accuracy arguments are unwelcome.

I would advocate a suspect if someone can tell me a groundbreaking difference between sub jynx and sub vivillon. Yes its weaker to rocks but other than that hurricane hits hard, and because of sleep it too doesn't have many checks either, I would put them on the same level.
 
For the record, I think the sub jynx set is suboptimal (lol) bc you're throwing away a moveslot that have several significant advantages (psyshock hitting hariyama/av mons, NP pressuring a ton of builds, or LK aka the move that make jynx dumb in the first place) for the ability to set up on some bulky waters (not that we really have that many) and make prediction easier.

I think you're underestimating how big that rock weakness is. Jynx also carries a way to get past steelix (or at least do a ton of damage even if it's not carrying FB). Jynx gets a +2 boost if it chooses so vs a +1 boost, meaning generally bulky stuff like gastrodon has much more trouble tanking. While vivillon possesses a way to boost speed, the most common way of dealing with it (other than steelix or regirock + sleep fodder) is revenging it. Things like piloswine, samurott, and shiftry have much more trouble killing jynx, and the most common scarfers (rotom and jynx) outspeed vivillion anyways. A specific advantage that sub jynx has over vivillon is the fact that it has a ton of sets that are all a huge pain to deal with, so it has a lot more opportunities to set up a free sub. Other small advantages are the fact that lovely kiss hits everything vs missing out on grass types (this is minor, as this is basically just Cradily, though it gives you more potential to play around Shiftry).

I know you asked for a reason sub jynx was better than sub viv, but I kinda veered off a bit, sorry bud. Those are just some specific reasons to use sub jynx over vivillon, but that being said, sub jynx isn't the reason jynx is a ridiculous mon (thought the fact that it has that option and it isn't bad is quite good). Sash jynx is the set that is the most important to look at imo.

While there are mons that are faster that can revenge, some of them risk dying to break the sash (tauros, archeops), and those fast u-turners still are in a bad position even if they don't immediately die because lovely kiss pressures anything that switches in. A common best case scenario in this case would be something like: U-turn from swellow breaks sash as jynx lovely kisses the switch-in. Now you have a low health jynx vs a sleeping mon. Not only has jynx put 1 mon out of commission for at least a turn or 2, but is now also in a position to fire off one of its stabs (which, paired together, have very few actual switchins). Even in this optimal situation jynx still came out even, or even a little bit on top. Niche lum checks like Skuntank still end up losing to double LK with sash intact. There are very few matchups where leading with jynx doesn't lead to a disadvantage, and even in those few matchups, hazard removal means that eventually sash jynx can apply a similar or even greater amount of pressure than it could have from the lead slot.

There is always a risk that jynx could be running a certain move (sub, np, focus blast) or item (scarf, sash, even lo) that drastically changes how you approach dealing with it. The problem is that all of these sets are fairly splashable, and looking at the rest of an opponents team usually doesn't give enough information to deduce the set.

tldr; jynx has very few bad matchups, and is usually impossible to play around without being put at some disadvantage.
 
For the record, I think the sub jynx set is suboptimal (lol) bc you're throwing away a moveslot that have several significant advantages (psyshock hitting hariyama/av mons, NP pressuring a ton of builds, or LK aka the move that make jynx dumb in the first place) for the ability to set up on some bulky waters (not that we really have that many) and make prediction easier.

I think you're underestimating how big that rock weakness is. Jynx also carries a way to get past steelix (or at least do a ton of damage even if it's not carrying FB). Jynx gets a +2 boost if it chooses so vs a +1 boost, meaning generally bulky stuff like gastrodon has much more trouble tanking. While vivillon possesses a way to boost speed, the most common way of dealing with it (other than steelix or regirock + sleep fodder) is revenging it. Things like piloswine, samurott, and shiftry have much more trouble killing jynx, and the most common scarfers (rotom and jynx) outspeed vivillion anyways. A specific advantage that sub jynx has over vivillon is the fact that it has a ton of sets that are all a huge pain to deal with, so it has a lot more opportunities to set up a free sub. Other small advantages are the fact that lovely kiss hits everything vs missing out on grass types (this is minor, as this is basically just Cradily, though it gives you more potential to play around Shiftry).

I know you asked for a reason sub jynx was better than sub viv, but I kinda veered off a bit, sorry bud. Those are just some specific reasons to use sub jynx over vivillon, but that being said, sub jynx isn't the reason jynx is a ridiculous mon (thought the fact that it has that option and it isn't bad is quite good). Sash jynx is the set that is the most important to look at imo.

While there are mons that are faster that can revenge, some of them risk dying to break the sash (tauros, archeops), and those fast u-turners still are in a bad position even if they don't immediately die because lovely kiss pressures anything that switches in. A common best case scenario in this case would be something like: U-turn from swellow breaks sash as jynx lovely kisses the switch-in. Now you have a low health jynx vs a sleeping mon. Not only has jynx put 1 mon out of commission for at least a turn or 2, but is now also in a position to fire off one of its stabs (which, paired together, have very few actual switchins). Even in this optimal situation jynx still came out even, or even a little bit on top. Niche lum checks like Skuntank still end up losing to double LK with sash intact. There are very few matchups where leading with jynx doesn't lead to a disadvantage, and even in those few matchups, hazard removal means that eventually sash jynx can apply a similar or even greater amount of pressure than it could have from the lead slot.

There is always a risk that jynx could be running a certain move (sub, np, focus blast) or item (scarf, sash, even lo) that drastically changes how you approach dealing with it. The problem is that all of these sets are fairly splashable, and looking at the rest of an opponents team usually doesn't give enough information to deduce the set.

tldr; jynx has very few bad matchups, and is usually impossible to play around without being put at some disadvantage.
Great points. In fact, you have described jynx's utility in such a uniform way that it actually describes vivillon as well since your points really embellish how good sleeper pokemon are. Replace jynx for vivillon in, well, all of your paragraphs and it will still make sense. Change big waters for big flying resists (para 1), vivillon carries energy ball not ice beam (para 2), sub sleep deals with revenge pokes (para 2), and literally just sub vivillon's name for jynx in the rest of the paragraphs and the tldr. Jynx's common items are vivillon's most common ones as well.

Now in your second paragraph you described the rock weakness. Yeah I understand and agree it is crippling but really the goal is to break the sashes with these mons, if jynx's sash can stay intact so can vivi's, negating any difference. After reading your post it more or less reassured me how hauntingly similar they are. The biggest differences between them are that jynx sets up nasty plots while vivillon sets up quiver dances, the STABs are ice/psy vs flying + (usually) grass coverage, water immunity vs sleep accuracy, and psyshock being able to take out dedicated special walls while vivillon relies on confusion chance. And of course typing, which I think jynx is better defensively because of priority. Can't think of much else, but yeah good post. Helped me focus my thoughts too.
 
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yTneyeT
What I was trying to say about the rock weakness is that, while both are much weaker with rocks down, vivillon loses much more power with its sash broken or something asleep because of it's speed and how much more common flying/grass resists (steelix/regirock come to mind as ones that can deal with eball variants) are than ice/psychic resists (niche things like grumpig or metang, lanturn can come in on both once). Performance on jynx is usually more consistent outside of the first turn when they are both very effective, as jynx can serve as an offensive check to things like sd samurott, kabutops, and shiftry, thanks to dry skin for the former 2 and a sleep move that can hit grasses for the latter. It's also important to note that jynx has the special bulk to check some fast special mons like floatzel, or even swellow stuck in boomburst (73-86%, so after spikes or sand or something lol), and is also a sketchy psychic resist. So basically, jynx is usually more effective in a "bad" position such as no sash, rocks, or used sleep than vivillon, and is just as (or arguably more) powerful in optimal conditions.

That being said, I agree that their roles overlap a lot as fast, offensive sleep abusers. They are both mons that thrive in the the early turns, it's just that, imo, jynx is stronger in the later turns.
 
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boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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quziel

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Just gonna post a few initial thoughts:

Basically, gurdurr and aggron is an amazing core that has the potential to excel on bulky offense due to how well they support eachother. Gurdurr not only doesn't particularly care about Gastrodon and its scalds, it loves to swap into them, and it also has a fairly good matchup vs other checks to Aggron such as the tier's ground types (read Rhydon/lix) due to its high physical bulk with eviolite, and the wonder of drain punch. Meanwhile, Aggron has an amazing matchup vs Scyther and most of the tier's defensive psychic types that would hope to swap in on Gurdurr and force it out, getting off a borderline free head smash whenever they come in. Sure, the core struggles against hp ground mesprit, Archeops, jynx, and a few other mons, but the matchup isn't even horrible there thanks to a strong stab mach punch. Basically, the second the tier shifts get implemented, I'll be using this core, and I recommend that y'all try it out too, at least from a theorycrafting point of view.
 
Nooooooes Gurdurr being gone from NU was such a blessing. I don't think this tier is particularly well equipped to deal with it, and the combination of very decent bulk on the physical side (uninvested, Gurdurr is bulkier than Garbodor), STAB priority, relatively reliable recovery in Drain Punch, Bulk Up and Guts is soooooo hard to deal with. Basically, you have to abuse it's poor special bulk - and you need to abuse it as soon as possible, because otherwise, it's going to start bulking up and throwing out those nasty mach punches. It's just such a scary mon, because at full HP, it survives stuff like Archeops' Acrobatics and has a chance to kill it with a combination of Drain Punch + Mach Punch. With a little bit of chip damage, that is pretty much a guaranteed KO.

That being said, I think it's gonna cement Jynx as an S-Tier mon, and I would assume Life Orb Jynx becomes a more common set, as it fails to OHKO Gurdurr reliably without it. Musharna also really benefits from this drop, and is not only likely the most reliable switch in to Gurdurr (that I can think of right now), but also compliments it really well as a team partner. Mesprit will likely stay the most used pokemon, and Psyshock will not see as much use outside of Calm Mind sets in comparison to before the drop.

I also wanna give a quick shoutout to Pelipper, I love this mon and it seems sooooo good on paper (A Defogger with reliable recovery, the second most spammable move in the game with STAB and the ability to pivot with U-Turn? Yes please), but the meta hasn't been kind to it in forever. May you shake up PU, Lord Lipper.
 

yogi

I did not succumb...
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I don't think either of these mons are gonna shake the current meta too much. Trev's only niche imo is as an attacker, because defensively Gourg does it generally better, with far better defensive capabilities. Yes, it has a niche of natural cure, but that only has real use on a CB set. Also (even though I of course will use it) the harvest variations are just gimmicks in themselves and really would have no place on a serious team; even something like harvest sitrus, because you become massive knock off bait and a 50% chance to get half a synthesis is just subpar and obsolete.

Gurdurr I think will make more of a splash, being a physically bulky wincon that can take on a decent amount of the physical attackers in our tier. However, I find it may struggle slightly more due to the rise of special attackers and mons like cm mesprit, weezing, garbodor, etc. being really common on team. I think it'll be an alright mon, but not a great mon.
 
The reason why 50% chance of 50% of a Synthesis gets used at all is because unlike Synthesis, you don't have to click anything to use it. Huge chunks of passive recovery are great, but I agree that Gourgeist is probably still generally better. There's still something to be said about Lum or Natural Cure with Rest though. Unlike Gourgeist, these sets can recover to full in one turn and completely shrug off status. Offensively, Choice Band Natural Cure will likely find itself on a decent amount of teams. Despite being Skuntank bait, it does get Earthquake and probably does over half with CB Wood Hammer, so even though it can be Pursuit trapped, Skuntank can't switch in. Generally speaking, it's a great switch-in to bulky Water-types because it doesn't mind Scald burns.

Two offensive Tauros checks makes me really happy too!
 

erisia

Innovative new design!
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On holiday at the moment so I'll be quick but I don't think we should be too quick to write off Trevenant. I think Harvest could potentially be used in some interesting ways (resist berries, Salac continually boosting Speed, Lum + Rest, the aforementioned Sitrus / Starf sets) and we should make sure to investigate these possibilities thoroughly before writing them off. Sure Gourgeist is generally better but as a Harvest mon Trevenant has numerous advantages over Exeggutor, such as the lack of 4x weaknesses, two immunities, and marginally better speed (if you're running Adamant 252 Spe or something then this is highly relevant considering how many targets hit this mark). Relying on Wood Hammer for good damage is pretty meh but it lets Trevenant self-trigger berries if it wants so idk.
 
I agree that trev has some potential, but mainly in the band + natural cure set. As a physical grass type, trevenant is one of the the few who can pressure weezing and poisons in general pretty hard (dealing 34-40% with shadow claw and can stay in to hit twice since it doesn't care about the burn), and has no real fear switching in to scald. It's also a fairly good offensive tauros check.

Outside of the standard bad, some interesting stuff I've been looking at is harvest + custap and taking advantage of his support movepool of wow + pain split + destiny bond or something, kind of like a poor man's mega banette (lol). There are a lot of very interesting berry options, so I wouldn't be surprised if some interesting sets pop up here and there.
 

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