Metagame NP: NU Stage 14 - Push It to the Limit

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Rotom-Mow has been highlighed in the recent survey as the biggest potential issue with the metagame, getting over 50% support to be the first suspect, and overwhelming support to get suspect tested in general. Because of this, Rotom-Mow is the clear next target for tiering action due to its impact on NU.

Rotom-Mow isn't a new face to NU, and has been Volt Switching around the tier in nearly the same way for well over a year. Although there is a fair bit of minor variations between sets, the goal of Rotom-Mow is rather predictable: being able to Volt Switch on most common targets that are immune to Electric-type moves. Leaf Storm is a brutally strong secondary STAB for Rotom-Mow, OHKOing common targets such as Silvally-Ground, Mudsdale, and Gastrodon, forcing them to switch out or otherwise not come in when Volt Switch is pressed. This enables many offensive cores that can keep the opposing team locked down in dangerous loops if the opponent does not take the risk of losing their Ground-type to Leaf Storm, as well as dangerous breakers to come in against the predictable Grass- or Dragon-type Pokemon that resist both STAB moves.

These problems complicate when looking at Rotom-Mow's various attributes. Sporting a well-rounded defensive type, Levitate, and decent bulk, it can switch into defensive Water- and Ground-types very easily and create opportunities for Volt Switch loops to start. An example of this bulk is the fact that it can live 2 Brave Birds from Talonflame, creating opportunities for it to switch directly in against the bird. It also has the fastest speed tier of all common Choice Scarfers, meaning that it will often be the fastest Pokemon in a given game and dictate the pace at which it is played. Although Choice Scarf allows common Protect Pokemon to pivot around the lawn mower more easily, it revenge kills many fast offensive threats such as Salazzle, Starmie, and Aerodactyl with ease, as well as opening up the option of Trick to cripple the few hard checks it has. Nasty Plot sets can abuse cores without these hard checks and have been seen as broken in the past, but we currently have enough strong Grass- and Dragon-types that these sets aren't seen as big of an issue. However, they still add an annoying dimension to its moveset.

There is some counterplay to Rotom-Mow in Pokemon such as Vileplume, Exeggutor-Alola, and Guzzlord, which offer no way for the Pokemon to break them even with Nasty Plot sets. However, all of these Pokemon are not immune to Volt Switch, which allows the Rotom-Mow user to pivot in a powerful breaker such as Machamp on these slower Pokemon. There's also a couple Electric-immune options in the tier that can take on Choice Scarf Rotom-Mow, such as Stunfisk-Galar and Togedemaru. However, these Pokemon tend to do a fair bit worse than the other Steel-type options into most of the metagame, and still happen to lose to Nasty Plot variations, making them often undesirable to use. In fact, one of the best Rotom-Mow checks in the tier is Rotom-Mow itself, because it allows the Rotom-Mow user to threaten the same Volt Switch to the opponent without taking more than about 40% damage from Leaf Storm in the worst case. This devolves some games into Rotom-Mow versus Rotom-Mow endgames, where the Rotom-Mow that wins the speedtie or that has more HP ends up winning the game.

Anti-ban arguments are very appealing due to the ubiquity of Rotom-Mow over the past year, as it adds another Defog user, another Choice Scarf user, and a powerful tool to break traditional Wish balance builds. It's not necessarily broken on its own, having several hard walls that prevent it from breaking effectively by itself, which makes it rely on its teammates to take control of the game. It also has a relatively middling speed tier after it uses Trick, allowing most speed control to overtake its pace and oftentimes revenge kill it. As has been mentioned before, Protect can completely shut down Choice Scarf sets, forcing Rotom-Mow to Trick so that its not rendered useless. This allows for the aforementioned weaknesses of Trick to show, as well as not being able to target Silvally-Ground, which becomes a very effective counter-measure to this style of play. Stealth Rocks are also a weakness of Choice Scarf sets, whittling down on its health and preventing Rotom-Mow from endless Volt Switch loops by forcing it to Defog.

Powerful breakers such as those like Dragalge and Goodra have supported Rotom-Mow and made it more powerful by proxy, as it allows entry against the Pokemon that these breakers beat. Before, these breakers that take advantage of Rotom-Mow's strengths have traditionally been seen as more banworthy than Rotom-Mow itself, which led to their eventual departure. However, instead of continuing to look at the breakers that benefit, we would like to attempt to cut off the problem from its root and weaken the Volt Switch archetypes that make these breakers so easy to use in the first place.

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  • Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice. **It is now 79 GXE**
GXEminimum games
7950
79.249
79.448
79.647
79.846
8045
80.244
80.443
80.642
80.841
8140
81.239
81.438
81.637
81.836
8235
82.234
82.433
82.632
82.831
8330

  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be NUUL. For example, I might signup with the ladder account NUUL Meri
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular NU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
  • The aspects being tested, Rotom-Mow, will be allowed on the ladder.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until Thursday, July 21st @ 11:59pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
  • [NEW!!!] There will be live tours including Rotom-Mow run on the next 2 weekends that will serve as an alternative to qualify for this suspect. Further details about these tournaments will be posted in this thread as soon as possible.
Tagging Kris and Marty to implement this, thanks!
 
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The tournaments will be organized on Smogtours (smogtours.psim.us), and the forum signup link for them will be announced in both the NU Discord and the NU PS! room at the time of the tournament. The tournaments will be single elimination live brackets, and Rotom-Mow will be legal in these brackets. The signups for each bracket will be open for at least 10 minutes after the time given for the tournament, though it is the tournament organizer's decision to keep it open for longer. Semifinals and Finals will be Best of 3, and all rounds before will be Best of 1.

Tournament Times:
  • Saturday, July 9th 4PM EDT (GMT-4): Hosted by Togkey
  • Sunday, July 10th 10PM EDT (GMT-4): Hosted by Phantomistix
  • Saturday, July 16th 4PM EDT (GMT-4): Hosted by Ninja
  • Sunday, July 17th 10PM EDT (GMT-4): Hosted by N/A
Amount of people that receive reqs:
  • Under 32 player bracket: Top 1 player
  • 32 player bracket: Top 2 players
  • 48 player bracket: Top 3 players
  • 64 player bracket: Top 4 players
 
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Got reqs with a terrible winrate :psyglad: Lost a gameby missing 4 Rock Blasts vs someone with triple Shell Smash Psychic Terrain if that gives you an idea of what the ladder has.

My thoughts on Rotom-C have been said but now that I actually have what I want, I feel hesistant. Rotom-C is very obviously good, it's the premier S+ NU Pokemon and is the perfect speed control, hazard control, and defensive and offensive piece for almost any team. The tier will hurt from it leaving, but will that outweigh the amount of freedom the tier gets? Rotom-C itself is simply just a solid Pokemon with the ability to pivot and break for itself for later, much like SD Mega-Scizor in ORAS/USUM OU as an example from a different generation/tier. This alone doesn't break Rotom-C but the virtually unblockable Volt Switch by virtue of threatening an OHKO on almost all Ground-types, in conjunction with the myriad of devastating breakers that gain free entry from these Volt Switches is what pushes Rotom-C over the edge for me. Many players have pointed fingers at Pokemon such as Machamp or Tyrantrum (rightfully so) but these Pokemon lack any remarkable defensive utility and rely on the free pivoting gained by Rotom (and others like Silvally-Ground and the late Dragalge) to make such a splash in the tier.

Rotom-C's splashability and essentially no opportunity cost for using means it is probably the most defining Pokemon of the tier currently, meaning a ban would send tsunamis through the tier. Rotom-C's ability to dismantle defensive teams with Trick or Nasty Plot or both while also having an edge on most offensive Pokemon due to its great speed and bulk mean that its absence would make fatter teams far harder to break BUT other offensive Pokemon would have a chance to shine, meaning that offensive teams would be overwhelmed more easily (?). I don't think anybody can accurately and confidently predict what a Mow-less meta would look like and whether it'd be "better" than the current meta or not. Basically this suspect test is a risk of the quality of the tier, but a ban is something far more easily undone than no action until its too late and the gen is dead.

For these reasons I think I can give a hesistant ban for Rotom-C, as even if the results are unideal, they can be reversed quite easily.
 

poh

<?>
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Following the latest survey, people were clearly in favor of doing something about Mowtom and while i can understand the points given as to why people want it gone, I'd like to give some counter arguments.

What i made up so far as the main pro-ban arguments:

  • Close to unblockable volt switch leading to easy chip and/or easy momentum pull
  • Electric-type that beats almost all usable ground types which goes back to the first point
  • The almost riskless pivoting allows then for our good breakers to come in like the aforementioned Machamp and Tyrtantrum.

Ofc it has many other advantages like being the best scarfer, disrupting with trick, defog. But i would argue those are healthy elements.

Now, I think mowtom offers the tier so many positive and healthy elements. First of all, I think keeping the fast mons like Salazzle, Talonflame, Indeedee, Inteleon, Tauros, Starmie and so on in check is something very very important. We do have other scarfers (indeedee, passimian, that can take care of these mons but they don't have the same traits mowtom gives + the momentum suck is huge compared to mowtom, thus giving the advantage to the many fast mons.

I would also like to touch upon the 'riskless pivoting' issue. We have other pivots like Talonflame, Xatu, Alolan exeggutor (a mon that will only rise in usage, it's rly fucking good), and some other mons who can pivot almost as easily as mowtom can so i don't rly get that part tbh. Even heliolisk has started to run uturn lately to ease pivoting so the idea of 'best pivot that brings in the crazy breakers should go cause it does it too well' doesn't rly sit right with me.

The generation is coming to an end and idg risking banning such an important part of this meta when the only pressing issue most have with it is 'it pivots too well'. Many other mons enable strong breakers so why is rotom the culprit and do you rly wanna take away the mon that compresses so many good roles into 1.

hope the wordvomit made sense lmao

tl;dr: mowtom doesn't warrant a ban as we'd lose a cornerstone of a mon + the motion saying that it solves issues related to strong breakers when the next best pivot will just replace it
 
Following the latest survey, people were clearly in favor of doing something about Mowtom and while i can understand the points given as to why people want it gone, I'd like to give some counter arguments.

What i made up so far as the main pro-ban arguments:

  • Close to unblockable volt switch leading to easy chip and/or easy momentum pull
  • Electric-type that beats almost all usable ground types which goes back to the first point
  • The almost riskless pivoting allows then for our good breakers to come in like the aforementioned Machamp and Tyrtantrum.

Ofc it has many other advantages like being the best scarfer, disrupting with trick, defog. But i would argue those are healthy elements.

Now, I think mowtom offers the tier so many positive and healthy elements. First of all, I think keeping the fast mons like Salazzle, Talonflame, Indeedee, Inteleon, Tauros, Starmie and so on in check is something very very important. We do have other scarfers (indeedee, passimian, that can take care of these mons but they don't have the same traits mowtom gives + the momentum suck is huge compared to mowtom, thus giving the advantage to the many fast mons.

I would also like to touch upon the 'riskless pivoting' issue. We have other pivots like Talonflame, Xatu, Alolan exeggutor (a mon that will only rise in usage, it's rly fucking good), and some other mons who can pivot almost as easily as mowtom can so i don't rly get that part tbh. Even heliolisk has started to run uturn lately to ease pivoting so the idea of 'best pivot that brings in the crazy breakers should go cause it does it too well' doesn't rly sit right with me.

The generation is coming to an end and idg risking banning such an important part of this meta when the only pressing issue most have with it is 'it pivots too well'. Many other mons enable strong breakers so why is rotom the culprit and do you rly wanna take away the mon that compresses so many good roles into 1.

hope the wordvomit made sense lmao

tl;dr: mowtom doesn't warrant a ban as we'd lose a cornerstone of a mon + the motion saying that it solves issues related to strong breakers when the next best pivot will just replace it
The big difference between mowtom and the other pivots is that the only true semi-consistent switchins that can always block volt switch and eat leaf storm are Stunfisk-G (susceptible to trick) and Togedemaru, a C+ and a B- mon. Other pivots have consistent switchins that are much higher on the VR and are much easier to fit on teams. Yes mowtom checks a lot of the fast breakers, but it's also the the best mon in terms of enabling them to be so easily brought in. Banning mowtom would make it harder to bring them in, and we can still use other scarfers/fast mons to keep them in check.

Mowtom is not only the best pokemon at offensively checking a lot of our breakers, but it also does a superb job invalidating structures with access to trick, wisp, nplot, something that also sets is apart from other pivots and scarfers.
 
:dp/rotom-mow:

I don't know if I'll get reqs (edit: got it), but my personal thoughts on Rotom-C differ quite drastically from the (current) popular opinion. I believe Rotom-C is a fairly balanced pokémon in the metagame. Not only does it apply pressure and check a plethora of incredibly borderline overpowered threats such as Silvally-Ground and Blastoise (with Yache Berry), it also provides a very effective and splashable breaker for more balanced team structures. It is also, in my opinion, not a particularly hard-to-check pokémon, with options such as Tsareena, Vileplume, Togedemaru, etc. all being reliable answers (although the perfect coverage can, indeed :indeedee-f:, be quite astonishing, but the same fear can be applied to Exploud or Indeedee's coverage, for example).
Frankly, I think mowtom reminds me of that one The Simpsons clip in which mr. Burns is diagnosed with every disease known to man. NU is just incredibly packed with strong, busted breakers checking each other lol, so I'm not sure if that is somewhat clouding my judgment.

mowtom reqs.png
teams I used to get reqs w/o much thought put into it lol:
DD Salazzle screens: :kabutops: :grimmsnarl: :blastoise: :silvally:-ground :xatu: :salazzle:
Infestation Vileplume sand: :gigalith: :sandslash: :lycanroc: :vileplume: :blastoise: :escavalier:

s/o to the one dude with hail that made me have to get 4 extra matches
getting reqs is stressful ;c
 

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My opinion is similar to Togkey's post - the unblockable volt combined with free pivot in a tier with several almost uncheckable breakers like champ makes it very strong, although I don't find it insanely broken and it obv contributes a lot with it's insane utility. However a ban is easy to reverse, so let's see what happens to the tier if it goes (maybe silvally-G will get out of hand, fuck that mon).

I'm also just bored of games coming down to volt/leaf storm predictions with your grounds
 

GW

I may be warrior
is a Tiering Contributor
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Got reqs :)
My Philosophy when it comes to NU metagame takes is to realize that Togkey is very based 85% of the time and has a horrendously questionable take around 15% of the time. This time leans towards the 85%. It is not the only choice scarf option in the tier, but its also so easy to throw on a scarf rotom-mow onto nearly any team and literally get a kill with your breaker of choice with 1 wrong prediction from the opponent. There would be more unique scarfers and a huge door for SS NU to be seen as an enjoyable tier again, which is clearly not the case as shown by the SS NU Community Survey. While Rotom-Mow does not necessarily 2hko the entire tier, it enables a healthy and unfun metagame that causes many people pain and frustration in their matches.

I will be leaning Ban for this one.
 

Lucario

A side must always be chosen
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
As we all know by now, something in the tier is causing some assortment of issues. They all follow the same clues that make Rotom-C and Silvally-Ground prime suspects. The two form the notorius power couple known as VoltTurn, though you may know it as "/forfeit". Togkey mentioned something in the Discord that made me actually think about my decision on being pro-ban or anti-ban. After some thinking (and using logic) I have come to a conclusion of being anti-ban for Rotom-C (and the same would be true for Silvally if it gets another test).

What Togkey said is something along the lines of "Due to time constraints, banning the breakers is better than the enablers." In this instance Rotom and Silvally are the enablers while Machamp and Indeedee-F are the breakers. Rotom and Silvally both have their fair share of checks, however, Machamp and Indeedee have far fewer checks who don't have as much diversity. Rotom often has to rely on accurate predictions if it holds a Choice Scarf while Silvally doesn't always have a safe move. On the flip-side, Machamp can Facade everything that is supposed to check it while Indeedee clicks the opponent's forfeit button on the rest. If you haven't caught on by now what I am trying to say is Machamp and Indeedee are far more broken and are what enables the meta to feel terrible, not the pivots.

GW mentioned banning Rotom would enable more "unique" Scarfers to roam the tier, but this is untrue. Passimian won't get any better as it suffers having the same checks as Machamp while Indeedee is already everywhere. Heliolisk prefers to not run a Scarf due to it losing to Vaporeon teams. There would be no other notable Scarfers after Rotom's departure.

To sum this all up, we all need to agree that there isn't one right solution to fixing the metagame (and most of us know that). However, due to Gen 9 starting in 4 months we don't have the time to test 10 different Pokemon, and as Meri has already said a few times, council/TLs can't easily unban something especially after a suspect. I do think a promising solution can be found, but don't look at this suspect solely as a Rotom suspect, but one that will determine SS NU's life the moment a decision is made.
 
After some internal discussion, we've changed a couple things about the format of the suspect tours. Firstly, Rotom-Mow will be legal for the remaining tournaments. Also, semifinals and finals of the remaining tournaments will be Best of 3. This does not void Lucario's tournament win, but will apply to the rest of the tournaments. There's also an official policy on how reqs will be handled if the winner has already qualified: the runner up will get reqs only in the case where 1 person qualifies from the player count, otherwise nothing special will happen. Sorry to put this information out so late, and thank you for your feedback regarding tournament format.
 

Rabia

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP & NU Leader
For these reasons I think I can give a hesistant ban for Rotom-C, as even if the results are unideal, they can be reversed quite easily.
However a ban is easy to reverse, so let's see what happens to the tier if it goes (maybe silvally-G will get out of hand, fuck that mon).
god please don't vote with this logic; you are quite simply incorrect in thinking we can just reverse a ban, ESPECIALLY this late into the gen. tiering does not work this fluidly. we cannot decide to upend the results of a suspect test a few weeks later just because "ah the meta sucks more now woops :P"

already had talked w/ togkey about this but wanted to make a more "official" post in case any readers saw those excerpts and had changes in their voting preference as a result.
 
god please don't vote with this logic; you are quite simply incorrect in thinking we can just reverse a ban, ESPECIALLY this late into the gen. tiering does not work this fluidly. we cannot decide to upend the results of a suspect test a few weeks later just because "ah the meta sucks more now woops :P"

already had talked w/ togkey about this but wanted to make a more "official" post in case any readers saw those excerpts and had changes in their voting preference as a result.
yea my b
 
Sorry for the delay, we'll be hosting the suspect tour in 30 minutes. That's 11pm EDT (GMT-4). Sorry for the delay, and I'm sorry for those that have been inconvenienced.
 
Reqs:
Screenshot 2022-07-21 at 1.15.20 PM.png

(Ignore the one battle factory game I got, I accidentally searched up the game without switching accounts)

We all know, that rotom-c, is an absolutely fantastic mon. It is definitively the best volt switch user in the tier, being able to smash ground types that would otherwise block volt switch. It's the only mon in the entire S Rank, and A+ Rank, that is viable with a scarf. This tier doesn't have a lot of speed control, and scarf rotom-c is able to fill that hole, while still being useful against bulky teams with trick, STAB moves, and filler move. Scarf also surprises silvally-ground, who otherwise would get a free u-turn on it. Another common set used, is the utility set. With semi-reliable recovery in pain split, the aforementioned great STAB moves, and finally defog, makes for a great mon, that is able to beat/pressure most rockers. Finally, the Nasty Plot set, is an absolute breaker for teams, which is still able to get momentum on it's switch-ins. Personally my favourite set, is the Nasty Plot set, as it's able to combine a breaker and pivot role into one. The ability to pivot, makes so many breakers viable, as without the ability to pivot they wouldn't be able to switch in, and hence wouldn't be able to use their destructive power.

These points may make rotom-c seem like a broken mon, however, rotom-mow has a lot of flaws. Dragon and grass types completely wall rotom-c's STAB moves, and it doesn't even have coverage to beat them down. Rotom relies on it's team-mates to beat these mons. Taking a look at dragalge, which recently got banned, was able to break teams by itself. It simply, had no switch ins. Where-as rotom, has plenty of switch ins, ranging from vilepume, escavalier, sylveon, tsareena, decidueye, dhelmise, eggy-alola, you get the point. Secondly, while rotom may seem bulky by being able to live 2 tflame brave birds, it also takes a lot of damage from even resisted moves. For example, Stakataka gyro ball does a huge 40% to rotom. This means that a rotom is only reliably able to switch into stakataka once (after rocks), before having to use pain split, something which is very exploitable. Rotom-c is also out sped and OHKO'd by a lot of mons, such as scarf indeedee (after rocks), salazzle, and even offensive starmie, has a 75% chance to kill rotom-c after rocks. Thirdly, many mons are kept in check by rotom. Quag, Mudsdale and Vaporeon would lose their greatest check, and become even better at walling. Sure, another grass type like vileplume could take rotom's place, however offensive teams would hate to give up so much momentum, by using such a slow and passive mon.

Overall, All of these flaws don't mean that rotom-mow is a bad mon. Quite the opposite, however the flaws don't allow rotom to be overpowered/broken. Hence, I will be voting no ban.

tldr: Rotom is a really good mon, however it has plenty of flaws, making it not ban worthy.

If you want a better explanation of what I said, please check Poh's post. This is my first post ever on smogon, hence if I've made a mistake please inform me. Cheers.



Following the latest survey, people were clearly in favor of doing something about Mowtom and while i can understand the points given as to why people want it gone, I'd like to give some counter arguments.

What i made up so far as the main pro-ban arguments:

  • Close to unblockable volt switch leading to easy chip and/or easy momentum pull
  • Electric-type that beats almost all usable ground types which goes back to the first point
  • The almost riskless pivoting allows then for our good breakers to come in like the aforementioned Machamp and Tyrtantrum.

Ofc it has many other advantages like being the best scarfer, disrupting with trick, defog. But i would argue those are healthy elements.

Now, I think mowtom offers the tier so many positive and healthy elements. First of all, I think keeping the fast mons like Salazzle, Talonflame, Indeedee, Inteleon, Tauros, Starmie and so on in check is something very very important. We do have other scarfers (indeedee, passimian, that can take care of these mons but they don't have the same traits mowtom gives + the momentum suck is huge compared to mowtom, thus giving the advantage to the many fast mons.

I would also like to touch upon the 'riskless pivoting' issue. We have other pivots like Talonflame, Xatu, Alolan exeggutor (a mon that will only rise in usage, it's rly fucking good), and some other mons who can pivot almost as easily as mowtom can so i don't rly get that part tbh. Even heliolisk has started to run uturn lately to ease pivoting so the idea of 'best pivot that brings in the crazy breakers should go cause it does it too well' doesn't rly sit right with me.

The generation is coming to an end and idg risking banning such an important part of this meta when the only pressing issue most have with it is 'it pivots too well'. Many other mons enable strong breakers so why is rotom the culprit and do you rly wanna take away the mon that compresses so many good roles into 1.

hope the wordvomit made sense lmao

tl;dr: mowtom doesn't warrant a ban as we'd lose a cornerstone of a mon + the motion saying that it solves issues related to strong breakers when the next best pivot will just replace it
 
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I have found my new gimmick that has a weird amount of depth given its general lack of relevance in competitive play (@ Pokemon Gender).

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I've effectively used this move on 3 Pokemon although I'm sure there's more that could make use of it.

:Machamp:
This one is pretty simple, you just Fling your Flame Orb at an opposing Mudsdale or Weezing to limit its longevity. The 4th move slot isn't really needed too much so Fling is a fun option, although Bullet Punch is usually better.

:Snorlax:
When the most consistent answer to Snorlax is giving it a Choice Scarf, you'd probably lose if it threw the Choice Scarf back in your face and proceeded to sweep your entire team. Snorlax's coverage slots are extremely versatile and in many MU's, not even needed. I think Fling Snorlax has a lot of merit even in a serious environment and I was honestly going to keep this set lowkey but I'm tired of competing rn so I have nothing to lose.

:toxicroak: :togedemaru:

Different mons but same premise aka 'has a Choice Scarf but really shouldn't'. Basically there's MU's where you need your coverage more than the speed of your Scarf so you Fling it away and get to work. Pretty bad but funny.

EDIT: Corth wanted me to mentiop the offensive Garbodor with Fling for Xatu ig
 

Lucario

A side must always be chosen
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
With the failed attempt of Rotom-Mow's ban, one issue will be made clear in the following days/weeks. Voltturn is not the boulder in the road, but rather another piece of dirt that makes it. I will be echoing a few points from my previous post but will elaborate more. Machamp and Indeedee-F aren't boulders either, they're massive concrete buildings that appeared out of nowhere and need to be taken down.

After I made the post someone in the Discord asked me "if Machamp and Passimian have the same checks, then why is Passimian not as great as Machamp?" Everything after the comma isn't exact, but you get the point. Passimian (and every Fighting type) has the standard checks like Sylveon, Vileplume, and Talonflame (and ig Mantine), they all check Machamp, too, just not nearly as well. Passimian has Rock Slide for Talon, Toxicroak has Gunk Shot for Sylveon, and Sirfetch'd has Brave Bird for Vileplume; Machamp has Facade for all 3. Machamp doesn't have to worry about your opponent switching out their Copperajah into Sylveon or Vileplume because CC into Facade always KOs. It isn't fair to the other Fighting-types to be compared to Machamp, they sometimes lose at preview at times when Machamp doesn't care. This is what makes Machamp broken and why it deserves a suspect test, more so than any other Pokemon. Nothing can safely switch into it without fear of being predicted. Not to mention all 3 of those Pokemon use status to their advantage, which is obviously something Machamp shrugs off.

As of writing this someone in the Discord mentioned how Mowtom staying will continue the trend of identical teams and how it's boring. Those teams almost always have a Mowtom, not because it's broken, but because of how splashable it is and how good it is. Most of those teams also include Machamp, which as I mentioned already, is the superior Fighting-type. Banning Machamp will leave teams with holes needing fixed as well as balancing issues. If a good team loses Machamp you can't replace it with Sirfetch'd and expect similar results. If a team is build to beat Machamp then it will likely fail in an environment that allows more Fighting-type options due to the other 3 having varying niches that are harder to collectively check.

Next up is Indeedee-F, which I'm a little more torn on than before, but would still support a ban. Due to Indeedee's reliance of Scarf/Specs on dominating it is able to be abused much more than Machamp. However, there are only a few things that can abuse it. Drapion, the Steels, Eeveelutions, and Mantine all are decent at handling Indeedee. Unfortunately, there is no Pursuit, our Steels don't have reliable recovery, and the Eeveelutions + Mantine still take a load of damage. A Scarfed Pokemon should not be able to do so much neutral damage to the walls of the tier. Vaporeon can be 2HKOd with hazards or minimal prior damage, that is not okay. Dark types are currently taking a break from the meta for various reasons, which allows Indeedee to freely spam Expanding Force and pogchamp in the chat. While It is very strong, it relies on teammates more than other breakers due to its limited movepool and weak Spa outside of STAB, which is another reason I'm unsure of it. But it isn't to say others have spoken up about it recently and would likely still support a suspect.

The next 2 lose to Sylveon. Blastoise is a dumb Pokemon that should have been banned a year ago but oh well, it can still leave. It's a luck based Pokemon who gets lucky 96% of the time, the 4% it isn't lucky is when you use it. The other strong Pokemon is no other than Exeggutor-Alola. Not much to say about it other than it being a Dragon that beats the Steels is quite scary, especially since it can OHKO a good chunk of the tier.

There are a couple of other Pokemon that pose a threat such as Snorlax, Scrafty (yes I said it), and Vileplume (Yes I also said that). However, they don't go above and beyond like Machamp and Indeedee do. Those are just the thoughts of a ladder player who hates Blastoise, maybe you agree, maybe you don't. As long as we can fix whatever is wrong then we can all be happy, but obviously the issue is Machamp. :)
 
As someone who has been spamming Specs Indeedee-F for the past 7 months, I think Indeedee-F makes for a good suspect candidate (Specs set only, Scarf is balanced and CM is underexplored but harder to execute). Life Orb Male already put in work even during Bronzong meta, and once Bronzong left I knew that the Female would quickly become an Expanding Force to be reckoned with. In fact, she has become better over time, and why is that?
  • Bronzong left, so Shadow Ball can be dropped for moves like Hyper Voice to bop Drapion switch-ins.
  • AV Goodra got banned, which means one less check.
  • Guzzlord fell off in usage, which means one less Dark-type to account for (not really).
  • Grimmsnarl dropped to NU as an additional check but sadly people forgot that it exists by virtue of being mid.
Her prowess needs no introduction. 85 Speed tier is pretty fast and for Specs sets there is zero opportunity cost in running Modest, unless you want to outrun non-Scarf Braviary or speed-tie Toxicroak for some reason (the latter also slightly declining in usage due to Gastrodon's arrival). Bringing Indeedee-F in is also very easy thanks to excellent pivots like Mowtom and also has defensive utility, its Normal typing granting it Poltergeist immunity and Psychic Terrain blocking priority. Steels are two-time checks at best, and I say that because sometimes the opponent does not get the sequence right. Even Dark-types need to be wary. Here are some examples.
  • Opponent switches in Staka/Copper, takes 1/3 damage. Opponent greedily set up Rocks and got outpredicted, takes another 1/3. Suddenly the Steel is almost gone.
  • Opponent switches in Drap/Escav and got bopped by Hyper Voice and Mystical Fire respectively.
  • Turn 1: Lead Guzzlord switches out for fear of Dazzling Gleam, so you click button and suddenly something else dies.
All of these potentially terrifying sequences forces a Protect-spam meta that nobody likes to play against, because trapping yourself in a WishTect vortex is incredibly passive but yet such plays are surprisingly hard to punish. I also feel that Indeedee-F somewhat exacerbates this problem since there is a dire need to stall out the Terrain turns.

All that being said, I do acknowledge the anti-ban arguments as well. With everyone slapping Protect on Staka, Muds, Escav and who knows what else, as well as a Drapion to deter mindless clicking, it becomes much harder for the Indeedee-F user to predict and click. Not running Scarf also means that it can get revenge-killed by faster threats. Nevertheless, I am fine if Indeedee-F does not get suspected in the end; I will just simply continue to abuse its insane power until the generation ends.
 
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Gutted Rotom Mow wasn't banned… :psycry: the votes were pretty close. Would have been interesting if all the council voted. Anyway, I've come to the realisation that majority of teams consist of Vaporeon/Gastrodon, Talonflame, Rotom Mow, Mudsdale/Stakataka , a wallbreaker (usually Sirfetch'd or Machamp) + Filler. Nice n diverse tier. :blobnauseated:

Gonna make a few comments. (Don't hate me for my unpopular opinions)

cynthia stan blog


Sirfetch'd is still broken in my eyes sorry. 50% critical hit chance from Leek makes this just ridiculous and leaf blade is a great option to consider on your last slot over Brave Bird. 100% crit chance to always 2HKO Mudsdale who often try to "switch in" and hitting Vaporeon, Gastrodon and Quagsire too with no defense drops / recoil if it comes to that. Leek is easily the best but CB is decent too especially because the standard teams usually never carry a great switch in so you can probably click knock off on the Talonflame the first time and just click CC the rest of the game. Might as well pair it with Rotom Mow… so you can bring your wallbreaker every time you volt swtich… this mon is very straight forward to use thanks to Scrappy Close Combat, it requires possibly only a small amount of support and overall, it still needs to be suspected or banned still.

Machamp GIFs | Tenor


Machamp is also super threatening albeit I think Sirfetch'd is just a tad better imo thanks to the speed tier, strong priority which can net important KO's on Starmie and Rotom Mow. There's also the slight longevity and being able to be wallbreak off the bat before flame orb can activate. Had fun trying out the some of the few Machamp checks/counters we have Sableye and Colbur Berry Palossand / Gourgeist-Super) who all can avoid a being 2HKO'd but you know… it's kinda sad you have to resort to these if you don't want to die but yeah, the rest is similar to Sirfetch'd. It doesn't need to be prediction reliant and just blows through everything most of the time. Suspect worthy? Yeah?? :S

Blastoise GIF - Find on GIFER


Guess I'll remain the only suspect Blastoise advocate here. AV Copperajah isn't even guaranteed to OHKO and missing / no OHKO will probably cost you the game. Blastoise can still play around a little with Mantine, Gastrodon and Vaporeon. There's the flinch / freeze shenanigans or setting up multiple shell smashes. Your best bet though is getting a little support with Knock Off / Toxic so think about using something like Salazzle. It shares similar checks/counters so its not hard getting them to switch in. Otherwise, any other toxic / knock mon will do like Stakataka, Mudsdale, Drapion or Escavalier for example.

Scarf Heliolisk meh but thunderbolt isn't an OHKO anyway so theoretically, Blastoise has 3 scenarios if it's at full health. You can use timid which to outspeed, lure Heliolisk with EQ / physical Shell Smash (100% viable by the way) or just survive the thunderbolt and Shell Smash again. Now you're at the torrent range + you truly sweep everything Throw it on any balance or HO team, chip their checks and you're good to go. Don't really have much else to say that hasn't been said already, sorry.


Hi Snorlax GIFs | Tenor
Monotype - Stakataka (Steel) | Smogon Forums
Indeedee GIF - Indeedee - Discover & Share GIFs



Snorlax, Stakataka and Specs Indeedee-F are amazing but don't have any comments for now sorry. :0
 

Rabia

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Think my general sentiment leans two ways:

1) The tier has no single issue with it. There is a fundamental flaw with Generation 8 in threat overload, and banning any one threat solves little. This makes tiering annoying because picking something to suspect test is hard. We have options, and I'll cover them later, but none of them are too convincing.

2) We have a ton of Pokemon at the top of the tier that could go. They are one-dimensional threats that offer very little to the tier from a health perspective, and although they're replaceable in the teambuilder with Pokemon that do the same thing, these replacements are weaker alternatives that would be easier to manage.

---

:ss/blastoise:
This Pokemon remains overrated by all the people wanting it banned. However, I do accept that a ban of it isn't going to have the long-lasting effect a Rotom-C ban would have. To beat a dead horse, this Pokemon's impact on a game largely comes down to not letting it set up for free---and this is really easy. We can even reference this recent NUPL for an example of this (I am too lazy to get the replay). Realistically, I don't give a fuck what happens to Blastoise; as I said, it leaving will change little. However, that's also the biggest reason I've been so anti-suspect test. This is a very manageable Pokemon, and banning it changes nothing about the tier's makeup. At best, it'd be a decision to satiate a vocal minority of the community.

:ss/vaporeon:
Yeah so, people want Vaporeon banned under the premise of it being toxic for the tier. I get the frustration because the format is so locked into people using Wish-centric balance teams, and Scald just inherently makes Vaporeon harder to exploit than Sylveon, but this is a take I'll never get behind. This seems like a classic case of "tier is boring, ban this staple defensive Pokemon," and tiering by the "fun" metric has always been a bad idea. The big divide too comes from me (and other anti-suspect test people) having differing takes on how viable the Vaporeon beaters are, which yeah, that's Pokemon. We'll always have small disagreements on where Pokemon should be on the VR.

:ss/machamp::ss/sirfetchd::ss/toxicroak:
These are the best Fighting-types in the format and have all gotten varying calls for tiering action on them. I think Machamp is the Pokemon I most want gone out of anything NU has, but Sirfetch'd is certainly an option for follow-up action because it seamlessly fills that void a Machamp ban would leave.

I rate Machamp most highly because I think Facade breaks it. It's a no-nonsense wallbreaker that can spam the same move repeatedly and not care about pretty much any of the standard defensive answers to Fighting-types, including status from Talonflame and Vileplume. At least you can sort of pivot around Sirfetch'd and Toxicroak; Machamp you really are just relegated to offensive counterplay, and I don't think that's healthy.

:ss/silvally-ground:
Meh, Silvally-Ground getting a retest would be fine, but I don't have it at the top of my priorities list. It feels like ever since the metagame firmly solidified around Mudsdale that Silvally-Ground became more manageable by default.

:ss/indeedee-f:
The only set I think worth discussing as potentially broken is Twisted Spoon Calm Mind, but I otherwise think Indeedee's weaknesses have remained just as prevalent as they've always been, perhaps worsening as Dark-types crop up again and Stakataka solidifies itself once again as the best Steel-type in the format. It's certainly an incredible Pokemon and should be on the radar, but I wouldn't take action on it right now for sure.

:ss/copperajah:
etern are we still supposed to pretend this Pokemon has checks? :sob:
 

Ren-chon

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1) The tier has no single issue with it. There is a fundamental flaw with Generation 8 in threat overload, and banning any one threat solves little. This makes tiering annoying because picking something to suspect test is hard. We have options, and I'll cover them later, but none of them are too convincing.
This about sums up how I feel regarding the tier rn, as Ive mentioned quite a lot of times both in NU cord and council: theres not a single broken Pokémon in the tier right now, just a bunch of way too good options. I think the closest it gets to truly being broken is Machamp (and maybe Sirfetchd. Opinions differ over whos the biggest issue, but I think we all agree theyre almost crossing the line of being OP), but nothing at the level of, say, Goodra back in the days, and even that was already way too close. The tier feels like a bunch of pivots or glues whos only purpose is enabling other breakers to run havok, which ngl is the main reason why Gvally and Mowtom were suspected in the first place. With that said, I think its time we focus our attention back on the "click one button, kill one 'mon" kinda threats, or the ones that are enabled by the forementioned pivots. Also no, we wont have a redo of SM NU Sneasel - Emboar - Sneasel v2 suspects, so Gvally and Mowtom will hardly be suspected again with SS as a current gen


I think this is the one people are complaining the most about, and I can see why. Between Facade, Close Combat and Knock Off, switching into it is basically impossible. Faster threats dont want to be switching into it, and the slower ones that can take a hit are, well, slow so they often just get hit by a CC/Knock into Facade and die. Counterplay to this is actually rather limited despite its slow Spe, since youll be bringing it through U-Turn/VSwitch anyway so whenever its in youre close to guaranteed to take one, or force your opp to play super passive for a turn or two (forcing a Roost from Talon who dies next time it switches in anyway). I think its the most suspect worthy option we have right now, although I can totally understand people who rate Sirfetchd over this.


Machamps strongest competitor, or partner in crime if we redo the abomination that was the Bewear + Pangoro double suspect, the duck trades Machamps "invulnerability" to status and more consistent breaking power for higher Spe and, potentially, higher damage output depending on where your coin lands, assuming equal natures. Dealing with this is, in my opinion, a bit easier since you can sorta scout it with Protect or fish for burns with Talon. Also, no Facade is pretty huge honestly. That said, the 10 extra Spe comes in clutch, since a lot of defensive targets in the base 60-70 range (most notably Mantine) opt to EV for Ada Machamp, since going further than this can make dealing with both quite harder.

The dog and the duck pretty much sum up all the issues we have currently: threats that have counterplay and, alone, dont feel restrictive and broken at all; however, theyre still really good at breaking teams that lack such counterplay. This much should be obvious: if you dont have good checks or counters to a certain meta Pokémon, it SHOULD run through your team. Thats fine, honestly; however, it becomes an issue when we have so many of them that we're required to either ignore a couple when building or pack a lot of "check all" 'mons such as Vaporeon, Staka and Talon so all teams end up looking the same. Some other threats that might be a bit too good right now (but not as "broken" as the two above), include:

:indeedee-f:
None of its sets is necessarily overwhelming, with maybe CM 3 Atk being the best one right now, but the combo of a super strong nuke and actually good coverage means it can always do stuff in matches, be it by literally forcing through steels with a specs, having basically no offensive counterplay if scarf, or eating no-staka fat balance alive with the CM set. I feel like even when it runs into some bad mus, like scarf vs staka balance, it can still do stuff by tricking its item or being thrown at your opponent hoping to make enough holes so your actual win con can do stuff. Its not really broken, but still one of the biggest offenders of our hyperthreat issue rn.

:salazzle:

Maybe the most versatile Pokémon we have rn, this thing is a demon for non-vap teams. Even Gastro or Quag squads can fall flat to a potential specs or toxic. It can do just about everything you want it to: Encore can act as soft check to things like Snorlax while letting you beat Vap if it locks into Wish or Protect; Toxic can make the lives of Mantine, Quag and Gastro hell in the long run while letting it be useful until it can find a moment to smash through; Knock can cripple key targets like Mantine and Vaporeon so theyre easier to chip and forced to burn more of their recovery moves; Overheat is a nuke at +2; and even non-NP sets show up from time to time, most notably Scarf (being the fastest viable option) and Specs.

:toxicroak:
I dont really find this thing that overwhelming honestly, it just prays on the lazy Vap+Muds/Staka cores, but then again these are like more than half the teams rn so eh. SD / Low Kick / Gunk / Knock or Sucker is enough to deal with a lot of the tier, and its actually good typing means it doesnt really have a hard time finding opportunities to set up. Gunk making no contact is also kinda neat since then your opp cant fish for status, similar to Machamp.

:exeggutor-alola:
Only Sylv balance is safe from this thing. Draco / Leaf or Giga / Flame is INSANE coverage, brute forcing even through resists. If that wasnt enough, its also similar to Salazzle in the sense it can basically be a different Pokémon based on what you use as your 4th: Sludge can be used to beat Sylv more reliably; Low Kick with a Life Orb makes its already small list of checks even smaller by giving you a way to kill AV Copp and Staka; Teleport coupled with Harvest Sitrus gives this thing insane durability and a role similar to Gvally and Mowtom; and then other less used (but still nice techs) options like Synthesis, Sleep Powder, Knock Off, Swords Dance for physical sets, and Trick Room.

Theres also a lot other stuff I cant be bothered writing longer analysis for rn, such as Snorlax, Exploud, Heliolisk, etern nemesis Scrafty, Copp, Blastoise and Ttrum that deserve an honorable mention asw. With all this said, I really dislike current SS NU. Its even more frustrating as a council because we want to try and fix things, but theres just... Nothing blatantly broken, and we end up with situations like Groundvally and Mowtom all over again (and before anyone points out, council was a lot more split on these than you may think. Us voting wouldnt have changed results at all, trust me). Playing is fun when you hop into matches where you feel like you can do stuff, but I think current NU has a lot more "oh look, this guy has the one threat I couldnt prep properly for because I was too busy covering all the other 30" moments than a healthy tier should.
 
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