Metagame NP: NU Stage 13- Break The Ice (Vanilluxe Banned)

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etern

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It's been a while, but we're here now with our next stage of the NU metagame! The NU Council has been internally discussing what our next step should be, and after speaking and listening to what all of you in the community have had to say, we've decided to commence with a Vanilluxe suspect test!


Ever since gaining access to Snow Warning at the beginning of Generation 7, Vanilluxe has been a dominant force in the NeverUsed metagame. With access to Snow Warning, it gained an accurate Blizzard, which in combination with the 6% Hail chip and a high special attack stat has made it one of the most ferocious special attackers in the tier. Access to STAB Freeze Dry allows it to comfortably nuke any Water-types that would otherwise act as solid Ice resists, and gives it a second ridiculously spammable move in conjunction with Blizzard. Almost all checks to Vanilluxe are weak to Stealth Rock and pressured to check a plethora of other Pokemon, for example Incineroar, Cryogonal, Delphox, and Magmortar. Moreover, almost all of it's other checks lack recovery, such as Silvally-Steel, Piloswine. To compound this, Snow Warning effectively negative Leftovers recovery and substantially chips anything lacking recovery even further. Vanilluxe can also run sets with Taunt, in order to ease prediction when facing Water Types and cripple passive defensive answers such as Mega Audino, Clefairy, Miltank, and Articuno. It also has a potent Choice Scarf set, with a decent speed tier, allowing it to revenge a large portion of the NU Metagame like Sceptile and Aerodactyl, though at a significant reduction in its wallbreaking capabilities.

However, Vanilluxe is not perfect by any means, as there are some relevant downsides to weigh when using it, which has been a large part of why it's taken this long for a suspect test. First and foremost, it can be somewhat difficult to fit onto teams on a consistent basis by virtue of it's poor defensive typing, slightly underwhelming speed, and Stealth Rock weakness. This means that Vanilluxe requires teams that function around hazards being off the field a majority of the time, forcing frameworks that are fairly generic and some which are quite exploitable.

Overall, Vanilluxe is a fantastic Pokemon in the tier at the moment, and a large reason as to why the Council has chosen now for a suspect test comes down to the state of the tier as a whole. The tier currently has a large amount of strong wallbreakers, and that puts a large strain on teambuilding. Vanilluxe was seen as the wallbreaker that gives a lot of teams the most trouble in both the teambuilder and in practice, and thus was deemed worthy of a Suspect Test.

Having gone over the basic points as to why Vanilluxe is being suspected, we hope that everyone is able to go into this suspect test with an open mind, as both sides to the Ban and Do Not Ban movements will have fair and valid points, that hopefully get brought up in the thread and inform you on how you will make your final vote.

There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, we'll be using the normal NU ladder which will remain open for the duration of the test. A message will pop up at the beginning of ladder games to indicate that the suspect is going on. (Tagging Marty to implement, thank you!) Vanilluxe will be legal for the entirety of this suspect test. Anyone who wishes to participate in this suspect test will use a newly-made alt with a suspect-specific tag to indicate that you are trying to achieve reqs. The requirements for this suspect test are the following:

  • All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! NU ladder on a new alt with the following format: "NUVST (nickname)" For example, I might register the alt NUVST Eternally to ladder with.
  • Do NOT impersonate other people in your ladder alt, do NOT use any usernames which are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users, and do NOT use usernames which could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokemon Showdown! Failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect, and potential infractions.
  • To qualify for voting, your alt must play a minimum of 35 games, and achieve a minimum GXE of 82.
You have until Sunday, February 10th at 11:59 PM GMT -5 to meet voting requirements.

  1. No one liners nor uninformed posts;
  2. No inappropriate / meme posts that would be deemed off-topic.
  3. No discussion on other potential suspects;
  4. No discussion on the suspect process;
  5. You are required to make respectful posts
Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning and at the complete discretion of the tier leaders. We reserve the right to deny you from voting in this suspect if you break any of the rules of the suspect test.
 

Snou

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So it's time, Vanilluxe got a suspect. I was expecting it to happen at one point, even tho I thought it would happen later on in the metagame. Vanilluxe is ofc a good mon, the best wallbreaker you can find in this tier, if you ask me. But just take a look at it: it's a three-headed-ice cream, literally. How menacing can an ice cream be? Now we all know ice creams are high in calories, but don't you think you're exaggerating just a little bit? All kidding aside, I totally get the reasons that led this suspect to happen, but I don't think they're good enough to confirm it with a ban.
Vanilluxe is a pure ice-type Pokémon with an amazing ability, overall decent stats, easily spammable moves and a cute smile. It can break most of the balanced cores you can find in the tier and, with the mere help of rocks, it can be extremely hard to find a good answer to it, but...
This doesn't mean it's unstoppable or what. This will probably mean that you will have to take in consideration more than a single answer to this mon while you build (nothing impossible, since on paper it has way more safe switchins than Heliolisk, js, but no one is even considering a ban on the lizard). This means you have to play carefully with your answers and don't let them damaged before it's time, or, otherwhise, the vanilla boy is going to reduce you in shattered pieces of glass.
So is Vanilluxe all this majestic perfection that people are claiming it to be? Lol no. It's a good mon, it does very well what is supposed to do, but this tier needs it. Those fat lix-xatu-slowbro-incineroar balanced are probably the most splashable thing in the tier: pair them with a good breaker and a fast mon and here we go, you have a competitive team that can win spl games and peak the ladder. Vanilluxe is one of the few mons in the tier able to force those cores out, to put offensive pressure. This doesn't mean you can just redundantly click Blizzard and win. Yeh because Blizzard is ofc a good move, but you have to be careful when you click it. Vanilluxe has consistent ways to deal with its counters, its true, but since specs is its best set (and if you ask me, beside the taunt one, every other set is just outclassed by the specs one) you will have to predict the switchin and take the risk.
I said "take the risk" because Vanilluxe is extremely frail and it's so easy to damage or even kill it if you don't play it properly. Its typing alone is not a good one on a defensive side, and its defensive stats are just mediocre. Ice type only means that you'll take every single damage you can take from Stealth rocks x2, spikes, toxic spikes and even sticky webs. And even if Sneasel is not as common as it was once, it's still a thing and can Pursuit the shit out of you. If you fail once, then you'll probably have to pick up what's left of your vanilla ice cream and throw it in the trash can. This is because it's coverage is not the best one: ofc you have Blizzard and Freeze Dry, but you have to run Hidden Power if you want to hit fat Steel Types.
In addition, despite Vanilluxe is not that slow, it's still slower than 80 base mons, such as Passimian and friends, and slower than the most common fire types of the tier (not counting Incineroar that checks it), such as Delphox, Magmortar and Houndoom. Thus, you're easy to revenge kill and we all know how hard is to find a decent switchin on Magmortar. In fact, if you want to use Vanilluxe, you will probably need a lot of support: it's not something you can splash everywhere. You need hazards control, fire resists, good setters, momentum grabbers. And you only have 6 slots, 5 not counting Vanilluxe.
Its sets are extremely predictable: Blizzard/Dry/Hidden power fight or ground/ Toxic or Flash cannon on the specs one, and there's the taunt icicle plate set that can fit some team. Every other set is just bad. csarf ice cream is the worst idea you can come up with, js. If you think scarf Vanilluxe has reasons to exist then you'd better start considering Scarf Audino and Specs Pyukumuku as an option.
Oh and you can't ban Vanilluxe: it's one of the few mons able to punish Xatu, come on. The schizo-bird is already way too prominent in this tier.
tl:dr - I don't think Vanilluxe is broken and, on the contrary, we need it in the tier, so I'm gonna vote no ban (ofc).
 

Yoshi

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
Brief Overview
I woke up this morning to this wonderful test, and I was very excited! Vanilluxe has proven to be a problematic Pokemon for months now, so it is nice to see that the council is giving it some attention. To give a bit of backstory, several users (including lax, myself, etc.) have been calling for a Vanilluxe test for a few months now. To give a brief idea of what Vanilluxe is, it is is a very strong breaker due to coverage, Hail, and natural power, and often requires little extra support that isn't otherwise natural. I do want to preface this post by saying that just because Vanilluxe isn't common, it doesn't necessarily mean that Vanilluxe is broken. I've seen some people argue that it isn't a problematic Pokemon because they don't often have to face it in battle, and when they do, it ends up flopping because of frailty or something like that. You'd definitely feel otherwise if it was used more by the right people.

Broken Aspects
So I'll break down this part into sections since there are really several portions to this that we can talk about. I'll be sampling Snou's post throughout this post because I think that it has a lot of what people would say about Vanilluxe being not-so-ban worthy, not necessarily responding to his comments all the time, but generally just leaving his thoughts there to show the other side of the argument (and perhaps why that is a wrong way of thinking).
  • Hail
In my opinion, this and the next thing are the two most broken elements of Vanilluxe. Without Hail, I don't think we'd be having this suspect test right now by any means, and that's reflected in that Vanilluxe wasn't even good until this generation when it got Snow Warning. The most obvious thing about Hail is that it gives 100% accurate Blizzards. Not being able to miss a base 110 STAB move coming from a Choice Specs Base 110 Special Attack stat Pokemon is definitely not an easy hit to take. There are definitely some Pokemon that can and will, but more on that later. Of course you could argue that 70% isn't the end of the world, but being able to avoid crucial misses is definitely a huge plus. However, the biggest positive of Hail for Vanilluxe is the chip. You will definitely see a lot of people argue that Pokemon like Incineroar, Silvally-Steel, and Klinklang can easily come in and tank a Blizzard, but they are all up to a 3-4HKO after Stealth Rock and Hail damage (hell, Klinklang gets 2HKOd). You could also bring up Pokemon like Hariyama and Miltank, but those are definitely not Pokemon you want on every team, and actually lose to Vanilluxe's Taunt + Toxic set, although that isn't the set in question. All of Vanilluxe's "consistent checks," are susceptible to being worn down extremely early on, and since those Pokemon lack recovery, there is a very little chance they will be getting any sort of health back unless you have Wish or Healing Wish or something. Therefore, it is extremely easy to wear down Vanilluxe's checks thanks to the addition of Hail, and is generally why it is able to run through teams so easily.
  • Coverage (Freeze-Dry + Hidden Power)
This is because it's coverage is not the best one: ofc you have Blizzard and Freeze Dry, but you have to run Hidden Power if you want to hit fat Steel Types.
This is the other most broken element of Vanilluxe. While some may argue that it has basic coverage, it really already almost hits everything with Blizzard and Freeze-Dry. The only two Pokemon it misses with those moves are Incineroar, Delphox, and Silvally-Steel. You could argue Pokemon like Houndoom and Klinklang, but those take way too much from a Blizzard. As I mentioned before, such Pokemon listed are kind of worn down easily, but that isn't the point of this paragraph. If you really feel unsafe in battle as to where you can't click Blizzard or Freeze-Dry, those Pokemon are patched-up by one single move: Hidden Power Ground. The best part is, you really don't need any other move. Vanilluxe ends up with one final slot which is usually given to Flash Cannon so the Ice v Ice match-up is a lot easier (this is actually a lot more relevant now thanks to Mega Glalie). So from an on paper standpoint, Vanilluxe has near-perfect coverage. However, some people may argue that this coverage doesn't seem to work 100% of the time in practice.
Its sets are extremely predictable: Blizzard/Dry/Hidden power fight or ground/ Toxic or Flash cannon on the specs one, and there's the taunt icicle plate set that can fit some team. Every other set is just bad. csarf ice cream is the worst idea you can come up with, js. If you think scarf Vanilluxe has reasons to exist then you'd better start considering Scarf Audino and Specs Pyukumuku as an option.
Here's a part of Snou's post I somewhat agree with, but disagree with the use of it. You are correct in saying that it can be easy to predict what set Vanilluxe is running, but how does that relate to it being not ban worthy? Plenty of Pokemon have been banned based on a single set or aspect, such as Gigalith, which while it did have a Choice Band set, mainly ran a regular Stealth Rock bulky set. I know it may seem like most Pokemon are banned based off the precedent of over-versatility, and you see that a lot in NU's history with Pokemon like Emboar and Venusaur. However, you can't say that a Pokemon does not deserve to be banned because it lacks versatility and unpredictability such as previous suspected Pokemon. For the record, Choice Scarf Vanilluxe isn't even that bad of a set. It's not the best Choice Scarf Pokemon out there, but you can't exaggerate and compare it to Scarf Audino.

I don't really have much more to talk about in terms of brokeness that isn't already obvious, so I'll respond to more of what Snou said in regards to Vanilluxe being not broken.
This doesn't mean it's unstoppable or what. This will probably mean that you will have to take in consideration more than a single answer to this mon while you build (nothing impossible, since on paper it has way more safe switchins than Heliolisk, js, but no one is even considering a ban on the lizard). This means you have to play carefully with your answers and don't let them damaged before it's time, or, otherwhise, the vanilla boy is going to reduce you in shattered pieces of glass.
On paper it does have more checks than Heliolisk. However, in practice, as I've mentioned, those checks don't always work out so well. Let me bring up a replay from Smogon Snake Draft (I know I've used this replay a lot but it makes a perfect example of how easy it can be to clean with Vanillluxe). Here's a replay of Lax vs FLCL from SSD II. As you can see, Lax immediately noticed from the start how weak FLCL was to Vanilluxe. Therefore, he kept it in the back the whole game until it was safe to come in and essentially just click buttons. You could definitely argue that it can be done with any Pokemon, but if you look at that match-up, Lax probably could've won with Vanilluxe a lot earlier too, but it is always nice to play games safe. Someone is going to bring up how there was no real check to it, and that's also true. That's probably just foolish building from FLCL. However, even if he did, the same thing could've been done. Keep Vanilluxe in the back until its checks are weakened down enough, then blow the opposing team back. This was probably not the best replay to use but the reason I used it is because it can be helpful to have some sort of a visual to explain certain situations. You may argue that if FLCL had an Ice resist then this game would've gone a lot different, but I don't think that's the case as I've explained. It would just take a bit more patience from Lax.
I said "take the risk" because Vanilluxe is extremely frail and it's so easy to damage or even kill it if you don't play it properly. Its typing alone is not a good one on a defensive side, and its defensive stats are just mediocre. Ice type only means that you'll take every single damage you can take from Stealth rocks x2, spikes, toxic spikes and even sticky webs. And even if Sneasel is not as common as it was once, it's still a thing and can Pursuit the shit out of you. If you fail once, then you'll probably have to pick up what's left of your vanilla ice cream and throw it in the trash can. This is because it's coverage is not the best one: ofc you have Blizzard and Freeze Dry, but you have to run Hidden Power if you want to hit fat Steel Types.
In addition, despite Vanilluxe is not that slow, it's still slower than 80 base mons, such as Passimian and friends, and slower than the most common fire types of the tier (not counting Incineroar that checks it), such as Delphox, Magmortar and Houndoom. Thus, you're easy to revenge kill and we all know how hard is to find a decent switchin on Magmortar. In fact, if you want to use Vanilluxe, you will probably need a lot of support: it's not something you can splash everywhere. You need hazards control, fire resists, good setters, momentum grabbers. And you only have 6 slots, 5 not counting Vanilluxe.
So this portion is a lot to digest. So I'd like to quote the first thing you said. "I said 'take the risk' because Vanilluxe is extremely frail and it's so easy to damage or even kill it if you don't play it properly." I don't like this argument because even you yourself said that it will fail if you don't play it properly. This is true for any other Pokemon ever. If you don't use it properly, it's going to do poorly. Perhaps you mean that it is easy to take advantage of Vanilluxe? This again can be true if you're not playing it properly, but generally what you should do is weaken down Vanilluxe's checks, then try and clean with it, which solves that issue. You listed all these hazards that Vanilluxe is vulnerable to, and that's fine. Meloetta and Emboar were also susceptible to all of those, but I suppose I should elaborate anyway. The most important of those that you listed of course was the 2x Stealth Rock weakness. Of course this is a negative for it, but does that make it not ban worthy? I don't see how it would. Sure this makes it easier to kill due to chip, but Vanilluxe is generally not going to be taking a hit from a Pokemon anyway, unless its slower and weak. You can also run Defog or Rapid Spin support, and while that can be twisted to say that Vanilluxe requires too much support, that's really not the case. Most teams want some kind of hazard removal anyway. Another negative that you listed is that Vanilluxe is easy to revenge kill. This is true, but you generally don't put Vanilluxe in a position to be revenge killed. I think in this post you really set it up to be in the worst situation possible. You're assuming that the Vani user will throw out Vanilluxe in the early-game, letting it get chipped down by hazard residual and U-Turn chip and such. You can turn this around and say that this post is hypocritical for saying that Vanilluxe will always be played the right way, however, it isn't that difficult to play Vanilluxe in this way. If there's a situation where that doesn't happen, its usually that the player is inexperienced or that Vanilluxe completely steamrolls 100% or doesn't do much in the match up (this mainly applies to the Choice Specs set).

I don't really feel passionate enough to respond to much else, but there are a couple of more things I want to note. Vanilluxe does have a bit of a strong effect on team building, as it really forces you to run a consistent Ice resist. However, people don't do that anyway the majority of the time, so that isn't really a huge deal. The most consistent Ice resists are Cryogonal, Hariyama, and Miltank, and I'm not going to go into the flaws of those Pokemon. Another thing I want to note is that Vanilluxe doesn't even really need that much support. It really just needs hazard removal like any Stealth Rock weak Pokemon would need, and needs an extra Pokemon to help wear down its checks, which can pretty much be something like Passimian or Incineroar, two already splashable Pokemon.

Overall, I think Vanilluxe is an overbearing Pokemon on the tier. Through Hail and its coverage, its a near unstoppable force, and doesn't take a lot of brain to use, which is why I believe Vanilluxe should be banned.
 
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Finchinator

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I'll probably be voting do not ban, but I understand both sides here.

My main thought is that while Vanilluxe is threatening, there is sufficient counterplay. Just off the top of my head, there are over a half dozen capable answers to it in the metagame. Does this tell the full story? No, not necessarily.

It is true that Vanilluxe is one of the primary reasons that SD (specifically with Figy Berry) Incineroar flared up as a near-staple on bulky-offense. It's also worth noting that it provoked the wave of Wish Delphox more than anything else and its presence went a long way towards the creation of Silvally-Steel + Vaporeon balance (although this archetype is slowly dying out). Any Pokemon that has this much bearing on the shaping of common defensive measures should be at least discussed, so I am more than understanding as to why we are suspecting Vanilluxe.

With this said, I feel like the vast majority of the fleshed out pro-ban arguments are going to align with the sheer inconvenience of having another threatening presence to check/counter in the metagame when teambuilding as opposed to arguing that Vanilluxe itself is outright banworthy. I am actually not 100% set in my stance, so if people can sufficiently argue otherwise, then I will consider changing my stance. However, for now I do not think this will be the case. Regardless of that, the fact of the matter is that Vanilluxe is an annoying Pokemon to deal with. It is strong and with Blizzard + Freeze Dry, it can threaten a vast majority of the metagame. It adds another thing to the "teambuilding checklist" that does limit you when trying to come up with a consistent structure time-after-time. I can wholeheartedly understand why this would make someone want to remove it from the metagame, especially since they were given a golden opportunity to do so with this suspect.

The thing is that all of this does not necessarily correlate directly to banworthiness. Pokemon such as Heliolisk and Sceptile, for example, also have limited amounts of counterplay. The former has played a large role in defining teambuilding conventions, too, while the latter is something I feel people are consistently underprepared for. Vanilluxe is a bit more threatening than these two as it is less forgiving, claiming more OHKOs and having Hail to chip things that are checks. With that said, Vanilluxe is also much slower when using the more threatening variants (Choice, Z, and Nevermelt Ice/Plate) and weak to Stealth Rock. All things considered, I view it as more of a top-tier offensive threat than one that merits tiering action. There are checks/counters as I say above, there are common metagame elements that work against it (speed tier, SR vulnerability), and there are arguably comparably potent offensive threats that remain in the metagame without question currently. This is a pretty close suspect in my eyes, but I feel that a prospective ban would contradict the principles of the tiering policy as we know it, shifting to a more convenience based reasoning as opposed to that of the actual definition.
 

Kiyo

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So it's time, Vanilluxe got a suspect. I was expecting it to happen at one point, even tho I thought it would happen later on in the metagame. Vanilluxe is ofc a good mon, the best wallbreaker you can find in this tier, if you ask me. But just take a look at it: it's a three-headed-ice cream, literally. How menacing can an ice cream be? Now we all know ice creams are high in calories, but don't you think you're exaggerating just a little bit? All kidding aside, I totally get the reasons that led this suspect to happen, but I don't think they're good enough to confirm it with a ban.
Vanilluxe is a pure ice-type Pokémon with an amazing ability, overall decent stats, easily spammable moves and a cute smile. It can break most of the balanced cores you can find in the tier and, with the mere help of rocks, it can be extremely hard to find a good answer to it, but...
This doesn't mean it's unstoppable or what. This will probably mean that you will have to take in consideration more than a single answer to this mon while you build (nothing impossible, since on paper it has way more safe switchins than Heliolisk, js, but no one is even considering a ban on the lizard). This means you have to play carefully with your answers and don't let them damaged before it's time, or, otherwhise, the vanilla boy is going to reduce you in shattered pieces of glass.
So is Vanilluxe all this majestic perfection that people are claiming it to be? Lol no. It's a good mon, it does very well what is supposed to do, but this tier needs it. Those fat lix-xatu-slowbro-incineroar balanced are probably the most splashable thing in the tier: pair them with a good breaker and a fast mon and here we go, you have a competitive team that can win spl games and peak the ladder. Vanilluxe is one of the few mons in the tier able to force those cores out, to put offensive pressure. This doesn't mean you can just redundantly click Blizzard and win. Yeh because Blizzard is ofc a good move, but you have to be careful when you click it. Vanilluxe has consistent ways to deal with its counters, its true, but since specs is its best set (and if you ask me, beside the taunt one, every other set is just outclassed by the specs one) you will have to predict the switchin and take the risk.
I said "take the risk" because Vanilluxe is extremely frail and it's so easy to damage or even kill it if you don't play it properly. Its typing alone is not a good one on a defensive side, and its defensive stats are just mediocre. Ice type only means that you'll take every single damage you can take from Stealth rocks x2, spikes, toxic spikes and even sticky webs. And even if Sneasel is not as common as it was once, it's still a thing and can Pursuit the shit out of you. If you fail once, then you'll probably have to pick up what's left of your vanilla ice cream and throw it in the trash can. This is because it's coverage is not the best one: ofc you have Blizzard and Freeze Dry, but you have to run Hidden Power if you want to hit fat Steel Types.
In addition, despite Vanilluxe is not that slow, it's still slower than 80 base mons, such as Passimian and friends, and slower than the most common fire types of the tier (not counting Incineroar that checks it), such as Delphox, Magmortar and Houndoom. Thus, you're easy to revenge kill and we all know how hard is to find a decent switchin on Magmortar. In fact, if you want to use Vanilluxe, you will probably need a lot of support: it's not something you can splash everywhere. You need hazards control, fire resists, good setters, momentum grabbers. And you only have 6 slots, 5 not counting Vanilluxe.
Its sets are extremely predictable: Blizzard/Dry/Hidden power fight or ground/ Toxic or Flash cannon on the specs one, and there's the taunt icicle plate set that can fit some team. Every other set is just bad. csarf ice cream is the worst idea you can come up with, js. If you think scarf Vanilluxe has reasons to exist then you'd better start considering Scarf Audino and Specs Pyukumuku as an option.
Oh and you can't ban Vanilluxe: it's one of the few mons able to punish Xatu, come on. The schizo-bird is already way too prominent in this tier.
tl:dr - I don't think Vanilluxe is broken and, on the contrary, we need it in the tier, so I'm gonna vote no ban (ofc).
Vanilluxe is ofc a good mon, the best wallbreaker you can find in this tier, if you ask me. But just take a look at it: it's a three-headed-ice cream, literally. How menacing can an ice cream be? Now we all know ice creams are high in calories, but don't you think you're exaggerating just a little bit? All kidding aside, I totally get the reasons that led this suspect to happen, but I don't think they're good enough to confirm it with a ban.
Vanilluxe is a pure ice-type Pokémon with an amazing ability, overall decent stats, easily spammable moves and a cute smile. It can break most of the balanced cores you can find in the tier and, with the mere help of rocks, it can be extremely hard to find a good answer to it, but...
This doesn't mean it's unstoppable or what. This will probably mean that you will have to take in consideration more than a single answer to this mon while you build (nothing impossible, since on paper it has way more safe switchins than Heliolisk, js, but no one is even considering a ban on the lizard). This means you have to play carefully with your answers and don't let them damaged before it's time, or, otherwhise, the vanilla boy is going to reduce you in shattered pieces of glass.
So is Vanilluxe all this majestic perfection that people are claiming it to be? Lol no. It's a good mon, it does very well what is supposed to do, but this tier needs it. Those fat lix-xatu-slowbro-incineroar balanced are probably the most splashable thing in the tier: pair them with a good breaker and a fast mon and here we go, you have a competitive team that can win spl games and peak the ladder. Vanilluxe is one of the few mons in the tier able to force those cores out, to put offensive pressure. This doesn't mean you can just redundantly click Blizzard and win. Yeh because Blizzard is ofc a good move, but you have to be careful when you click it. Vanilluxe has consistent ways to deal with its counters, its true, but since specs is its best set (and if you ask me, beside the taunt one, every other set is just outclassed by the specs one) you will have to predict the switchin and take the risk.
I said "take the risk" because Vanilluxe is extremely frail and it's so easy to damage or even kill it if you don't play it properly. Its typing alone is not a good one on a defensive side, and its defensive stats are just mediocre. Ice type only means that you'll take every single damage you can take from Stealth rocks x2, spikes, toxic spikes and even sticky webs. And even if Sneasel is not as common as it was once, it's still a thing and can Pursuit the shit out of you. If you fail once, then you'll probably have to pick up what's left of your vanilla ice cream and throw it in the trash can. This is because it's coverage is not the best one: ofc you have Blizzard and Freeze Dry, but you have to run Hidden Power if you want to hit fat Steel Types.
In addition, despite Vanilluxe is not that slow, it's still slower than 80 base mons, such as Passimian and friends, and slower than the most common fire types of the tier (not counting Incineroar that checks it), such as Delphox, Magmortar and Houndoom. Thus, you're easy to revenge kill and we all know how hard is to find a decent switchin on Magmortar. In fact, if you want to use Vanilluxe, you will probably need a lot of support: it's not something you can splash everywhere. You need hazards control, fire resists, good setters, momentum grabbers. And you only have 6 slots, 5 not counting Vanilluxe.
Its sets are extremely predictable: Blizzard/Dry/Hidden power fight or ground/ Toxic or Flash cannon on the specs one, and there's the taunt icicle plate set that can fit some team. Every other set is just bad. csarf ice cream is the worst idea you can come up with, js. If you think scarf Vanilluxe has reasons to exist then you'd better start considering Scarf Audino and Specs Pyukumuku as an option.
Oh and you can't ban Vanilluxe: it's one of the few mons able to punish Xatu, come on. The schizo-bird is already way too prominent in this tier.
tl:dr - I don't think Vanilluxe is broken and, on the contrary, we need it in the tier, so I'm gonna vote no ban (ofc).
This is not a good post. If you're going to make polarizing claims you need to back them up, most of your points are opinions with no reasoning behind them. Some of the claims you back up are riddled with contradictions. There is an excessive amount of pointless filler that detracts from the overall argument presented. We get it, you're hilarious (ofc), js. In the interest of saving everyone time you could have cut about half of this post. Typing more doesn't make your opinion better, it just makes your argument harder to follow, lookin' at you Finchinator.


I'm curious to know the answers to some questions your post raises:

Why do you think Specs is the best set? Why do you think all other sets are bad? Why do you have to be careful when you click Blizzard? If you're going to be voting no ban could you please explain how you personally check Vanilluxe and why it seems manageable to you?

You describe Vanilluxe as "extremely frail" but 71/85/95 seems like decent bulk to me, and that's more than enough to find switch in opportunities versus weaker attacks from the likes of Vileplume, Slowbro, and Vaporeon. I think extremely frail is a little misleading, but I could be convinced otherwise.

You mention fitting the necessary roles on a team in 5 slots seems difficult, citing the need for hazard control, fire checks, and "momentum grabbers." Xatu is everywhere, which you readily admit. We have access to more viable hazard removers than we ever have, Blastoise, Dhelmise, Decidueye, Braviary, Rotom, Golbat, Silvally to name a few. If Heliolisk and Passimian are two of the tiers best Pokemon, is fitting a "momentum grabber" on a team really that difficult? What about fire resists? Incineroar and Slowbro are both S rank and there are several other common checks such as Rhydon, Diancie, Druddigon, Seismitoad. These things don't seem that difficult to come by, and I'd argue they are downright easy to fit on a team. Am I missing something here?

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm calling you out here, but this kind of low-level joke filled post is counter-productive to the suspect process and has the potential to misinform readers and negatively impact the outcome of the test, I'm not gonna sit around and watch that happen again.
 

Rabia

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I promised Eternally I'd make a post after I finished classes for the day. Now is that time.

I'm going to start this post by saying that Choice Specs Vanilluxe is not the best set. It's the most intimidating set from a teambuilding perspective, but in practice I would argue that the following set is the best:

Vanilluxe @ Icicle Plate / Icium Z
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Hidden Power [Ground] / Toxic
- Protect / Taunt

So basically, this covers two sets: Protect + 3 Attacks Vanilluxe and Taunt + Toxic Vanilluxe. There is a bit more room you can do with what moves you have, but I feel these two are the most optimal for a few reasons.

Protect Vanilluxe is arguably the most consistently scary wallbreaker due to it still maintaining the breaking power of Choice Specs but being a much safer play thanks to it preventing traditional revenge killers like Sneasel, Aerodactyl, and Passimian from scaring you out or trapping you with Pursuit. Meanwhile, Taunt + Toxic is also insanely good but for different reasons; this set lets Vanilluxe bypass most defensive counterplay thanks to Taunt preventing stuff like Cryogonal and Miltank from walling you forever, while Toxic slowly beats them as well as Delphox down and cripples them for the rest of the game. I've also experimented with Toxic + Protect, which synergizes really well with hail and still punishes these stupid fat Pokemon with Toxic. Essentially, it blends the best of both worlds together, although it can struggle to break stall due to the lack of Taunt. Icium Z is just an overall cool option that lets you murder Audino as it switches in (Blizzard into Subzero Slammer always KOes if I'm remembering properly).

My problem with Choice Specs Vanilluxe isn't even that it's a bad wallbreaker; as I said it's probably the most deadly set on paper. The problem is that it's really exploitable and doesn't allow you to capitalize on all things Vanilluxe. It leaves you prone to revenge killing (specifically trapping), doesn't break fat all that well, and gives up momentum to stuff like Swords Dance Incineroar, which it invites in.

And a quick note on Choice Scarf Vanilluxe too: it murders offense builds really well due to their reliance on frail stuff like Sneasel to check it. This underrating is an injustice and makes me feel as though some of y'all haven't actually used it.

Assuming I go for requirements, I'm probably going to vote to ban Vanilluxe. I disagree with the sentiments of it being necessary and that it requires more support due to its shortcomings. Firstly, we should never use the philosophy of broken checks broken to keep a Pokemon in the tier; it's flawed and keeps the metagame less healthy than desired. Secondly, I feel that Finch is overrating how much support Vanilluxe actually needs and how hard it is to come by. The entry hazard weakness is somewhat annoying, although the tier isn't exactly strapped for valid forms of hazard control either, particularly ones that pair well with Vanilluxe: Rotom and Xatu are the two most prominent that come to mind, particularly Rotom, which offers both a soft check to Fighting-types as well as Volt Switch support, while Xatu does something similar. While Vanilluxe's Speed tier is annoying at times, I rarely find it to actually be troublesome given how you aren't trying to bring Vanilluxe in on faster threats and can punish things like Delphox and Passimian with Toxic and Protect, respectively. Like, the tools for Vanilluxe to terrorize anything, even supposed checks, are all present, and I think the main problem is that people only really heed the Choice Specs set much respect. And if we want to look at metagame trends, Finch himself mentions that VapoVally is falling off slightly, which only gives Vanilluxe more beneficial matchups.

I could see an argument that Vanilluxe struggles to fit everything it wants to have in its moveslots, but I feel that asking for say, something that beats Silvally-Steel should you forgo Hidden Power Ground isn't exactly all that rough. All of Vanilluxe's checks suffer this same supposed weakness to entry hazards, which only makes them less reliable when you factor in strong Blizzards, hail damage, and even Toxic. There may be other wallbreakers that pose a similar offensive threat, but I feel things like Sceptile and Heliolisk are less problematic given their general inability to reliably bypass their defensive counterplay.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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Vanilluxe presents an extremely risk-free element to wallbreaking that I feel is rather unhealthy for the tier. Vanilluxe's Blizzard is the best wallbreaking move in the tier by a considerable margin, since it has high power, has literally perfect accuracy, doesn't come with any drawback like stat drops or recoil or anything, and even has the audacity to come with a freeze chance after all that. Specs Blizzard is strong enough to threaten a OHKO on even neutral targets that aren't particularly frail, much less Ice-weak mons:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 444-524 (107.2 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Vikavolt: 333-393 (103.7 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scrafty: 234-276 (86.3 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow-Mega: 253-298 (78.8 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garbodor: 310-366 (102.9 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 352-415 (105.3 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In fact, less dedicated responses will struggle to take the hit, or have little business switching in at all. Blizzard also doesn't present itself as an attack for even most resists to set up comfortably on either, making it even harder to punish.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and hail damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Incineroar: 144-169 (43.5 - 51%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after hail damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine: 133-157 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Delphox: 131-154 (45 - 52.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after hail damage

The Hail that Vanilluxe automatically summons adds another annoying layer of trying to minimize the damage it does; the chip makes answers without reliable recovery such as AV Mortar, Silvally-Steel, Iapapa Incineroar, and Hariyama noticeably less consistent and also renders WishTect responses like Togedemaru, bulky Delphox, and Vaporeon (as soft-check) more exploitable than usual.

So with all of those qualities going for it, Blizzard is, for the most part, a "why not?" kind of move as it can easily net you an advantage even without the need for any prediction. Of course, Vanilluxe has access to Freeze-Dry to easily punish bulky Waters that attempt to curb Vanilluxe's mindless snowstorms, and, unlike Mega Glalie's Freeze-Dry, it's plenty strong enough to threaten neutral targets on its own, so it's not like this is much harder to go for. That said, Vanilluxe usually doesn't even need to use more than one Freeze-Dry per game if it nails its target on the switch, since it cripples them enough to the point where they can't respond to Blizzards anymore.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 348-410 (75 - 88.3%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 136-161 (29.3 - 34.6%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 270-320 (70.3 - 83.3%) -> [24% max, 57% on Regen]
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 105-125 (27.3 - 32.5%) [2HKOes 57% AV Bro]

252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Druddigon: 366-432 (102.2 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 156 HP / 0 SpD Dhelmise: 366-432 (114.3 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Xatu: 450-530 (134.7 - 158.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So what we have here is a Pokemon that can threaten a large percentage of the tier with these two moves alone, both of which are spammable and relatively hard to punish even when Choice-locked. This leaves Vanilluxe with a considerable amount of freedom on what it chooses to do with the rest of its set. I mean sure, its movepool is pretty damn barren, but even its remaining 'filler moves' can be tailored to handle what little else that stands in Vanilluxe's way, such as Toxic, Taunt, Protect, and Hidden Power, which can cripple, force out, scout, or outright KO its switch-ins. These moves definitely seem 'throw-away' compared to Vanilluxe's main attacks, but what this means is that a team often needs more than one good switch-in to be safe from Vanilluxe since its remaining two moves can be just about anything and it may well cripple your answer at a moment's notice. It's also well established that Vanilluxe barely even needs its non-STAB attacks for the most part, and non-Choiced variants are especially good at punishing those who rely on baiting Choice-locked attacks from Vanilluxe to keep it from corebreaking.

Now I'm not going to deny the existence of other wallbreakers in the tier that are at least comparable to Vanilluxe in terms of offensive presence while boasting other traits such as better Speed, resistances, ease of bringing out, etc., and most notably increased performance against offensive teams. While I can't speak on Scarf Vanilluxe's legitimacy, I'm not about to discredit the threat of a fast & powerful Blizzard, especially since Vanilluxe can still afford Modest, though I'd be personally more afraid of the possibility of a damn Autotomize Vanilluxe if anything (Icicle Plate Blizzard kills Scarf Passim after SR btw lol). More importantly, I'm not on board with having a wallbreaker that can get away with spamming "mono" STABs and be able to break the majority of the tier; aka a wallbreaker that is so mindless for how effective it is while also being decently fast. And no, we don't need Vanilluxe in the tier to break popular bulky cores; that's just Vanilluxe acting as an easy crutch.
 
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Snou

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This is not a good post. If you're going to make polarizing claims you need to back them up, most of your points are opinions with no reasoning behind them. Some of the claims you back up are riddled with contradictions. There is an excessive amount of pointless filler that detracts from the overall argument presented. We get it, you're hilarious (ofc), js. In the interest of saving everyone time you could have cut about half of this post. Typing more doesn't make your opinion better, it just makes your argument harder to follow, lookin' at you Finchinator.


I'm curious to know the answers to some questions your post raises:

Why do you think Specs is the best set? Why do you think all other sets are bad? Why do you have to be careful when you click Blizzard? If you're going to be voting no ban could you please explain how you personally check Vanilluxe and why it seems manageable to you?

You describe Vanilluxe as "extremely frail" but 71/85/95 seems like decent bulk to me, and that's more than enough to find switch in opportunities versus weaker attacks from the likes of Vileplume, Slowbro, and Vaporeon. I think extremely frail is a little misleading, but I could be convinced otherwise.

You mention fitting the necessary roles on a team in 5 slots seems difficult, citing the need for hazard control, fire checks, and "momentum grabbers." Xatu is everywhere, which you readily admit. We have access to more viable hazard removers than we ever have, Blastoise, Dhelmise, Decidueye, Braviary, Rotom, Golbat, Silvally to name a few. If Heliolisk and Passimian are two of the tiers best Pokemon, is fitting a "momentum grabber" on a team really that difficult? What about fire resists? Incineroar and Slowbro are both S rank and there are several other common checks such as Rhydon, Diancie, Druddigon, Seismitoad. These things don't seem that difficult to come by, and I'd argue they are downright easy to fit on a team. Am I missing something here?

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm calling you out here, but this kind of low-level joke filled post is counter-productive to the suspect process and has the potential to misinform readers and negatively impact the outcome of the test, I'm not gonna sit around and watch that happen again.
Ok, if having an opinion and explaining it is "potentially misinforming" I'll make sure that my next post totally fits your ideas, and I will probably not post if it doesn't fit your beliefs, because I'm not the only one thinking Vanilluxe has to stay, but we're probably all getting this wrong. I don't want to sound rude, because everyone has the right to think with his own mind, but i don't think it's a low-level joke filled post, because I'm actually showing you my thoughts, and if your argument is being insulting (because yeh, you were pretty rude),then, as said, I will make sure to fit your ideas and only post in case we both agree, so the information people will get is that the whole community has your same ideas, because it's the only one that makes sense.

So, now, let's answer to the questions.

Why do you think specs is the best set? Why do you think all other sets are bad?
Because if there's a reason Blizzard is difficult to switch in is it's specs set. A non specs blizzard, especially scarf, is kinda weak and woulndn't be such a huge problem to deal with. Imagine suspecting Vanilluxe if it couldn't run its specs set. "Why do you think Scarf Passimian is the best set?" becase it's the one is used the most. And why is it used the most? Because it's the set that best takes advantage from Passimian stats, moves and typing. And this is exactly what happens with the ice cream. Imagine banning Vanilluxe for its scarf set. I said, anyway, that even the taunt toxic one is a good set, in certain teams.

Why do you have to be careful when you click Blizzard?
Because, as every move in this game, it has resists, and in certain cases being locked on Blizzard can turn into a huge momentum loss. I mean, you say I'm potentially misinforming, but all I can see in the above posts is the idea that Blizzard is a win/win move that has no counterplays, and that clicking it doesn't require any ability in game.

If you're going to be voting no ban could you please explain how you personally check Vanilluxe and why it seems manageable to you?
Ok, let's keep portraiting the idea Vanilluxe is evil and has no answers. In fact, til this moment, every Vanilluxe in the teams has taken you to the victory, no matter how good you are. Vanilluxe means winning. How I personally check Vanilluxe? Even tho on paper it's one of those broken mons you can't check, if you (not you, Kiyo, but a general one) don't play brainlessly and think maybe one turn ahead of what's happening, maybe you'll find out that letting your oppo set up rocks while you put rocks with your Torterra, and letting Vanilluxe come in for free isn't the best idea. At least, it isn't if you don't want to lose one mon. In that case it's not Vanilluxe being broken, but you being unable to see turn ahead of whats happening, and playing turn by turn.
Anyway, when I build I usually make sure to have more than one answer for Vanilluxe, and I swear, it isn't that difficult. Ofc if you have 5 x4 ice weak slow mons and a single Steelvally, you're probably end up being 6-0ed by the ice cream. Let's start with the S ranks: AV fire blasts Slowbro checks, even tho you can't use it and say "ok i'm done with Vanilluxe resists", Iaiapa Incineroar, or even restalk, walls or checks, depending on coverage (and ofc, if you are planning to send it on rocks taking a hidden power fight, that's not how it works). Passimian easily revengekills, Sneasel pursuits, Steelix is not a mon you can switchin, or you can 1 vs 1, Medicham rkills, Slowking kinda walls it, Vaporeon checks it and scouts if it's going to dry with protect, Accelgor rkills it, Audino mega walls it, if not taunt, Delphox scarf rkills it, Delphox fat walls it, Klinklang rkills it and can be a monouse check, same for Magmortar, Dactyl rkills it, Houndoom rkills it, Miltank walls it if it's not taunt, Hariyama leftovers max hp walls it, Houndoom rkills it, Piloswine checks it, Scrafty wins the 1 vs 1 (so you can't rkill spamming blizzard), Cinccino rkills, Cryogonal walls, Articuno walls, Steelvally offers some resist (but it's bound to die if you want it to switchin everytime), sandslash alola walls if not hp fight, Type null checks, Togedamaru scarf rkills it, Togedamaru spdef kinda walls it if you don't send it on hp ground. As you can see, it's not like you can just send in Vanilluxe wherever and whenever you want and get your kills. Even the same Vanilluxe kinda checks itself lmao.

You describe Vanilluxe as "extremely frail" but 71/85/95 seems like decent bulk to me, and that's more than enough to find switch in opportunities versus weaker attacks from the likes of Vileplume, Slowbro, and Vaporeon. I think extremely frail is a little misleading, but I could be convinced otherwise.
Yeh, in fact we all send Vanilluxe on Vileplume and Slowbro, because it's not true that they almost 2hko it, and with rocks up and possible burn/poison from scald/sludge bomb/sleep powder, you're gonna lose Vanilluxe. If you do it once, and you succeed, you won't be able to do it anymore, and you'll still end up losing your Vanilluxe some turn later. That bulk could be enough, if it wasn't for the fact that its typing doesn't resist anything, and, on the contrary, is weak to half metagame. That's because Vanilluxe isn't meant to switch on things lmao.

You mention fitting the necessary roles on a team in 5 slots seems difficult, citing the need for hazard control, fire checks, and "momentum grabbers." Xatu is everywhere, which you readily admit. We have access to more viable hazard removers than we ever have, Blastoise, Dhelmise, Decidueye, Braviary, Rotom, Golbat, Silvally to name a few. If Heliolisk and Passimian are two of the tiers best Pokemon, is fitting a "momentum grabber" on a team really that difficult? What about fire resists? Incineroar and Slowbro are both S rank and there are several other common checks such as Rhydon, Diancie, Druddigon, Seismitoad. These things don't seem that difficult to come by, and I'd argue they are downright easy to fit on a team. Am I missing something here?
I didn't say you need to be an architect if you want to fit Vanilluxe in a team. I said it needs support. You can't splash it everywhere. Ofc, it's not impossible to find a spot for him, but it doesn't offer any defensive utility and, on the contrary, requires some. It's not like you are building a team and you have 1 left slot and say "ok lets put Vanilluxe, it's broken everywhere". That's not happening.
 

Kiyo

the cowboy kid
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Ok, if having an opinion and explaining it is "potentially misinforming" I'll make sure that my next post totally fits your ideas, and I will probably not post if it doesn't fit your beliefs, because I'm not the only one thinking Vanilluxe has to stay, but we're probably all getting this wrong. I don't want to sound rude, because everyone has the right to think with his own mind, but i don't think it's a low-level joke filled post, because I'm actually showing you my thoughts, and if your argument is being insulting (because yeh, you were pretty rude),then, as said, I will make sure to fit your ideas and only post in case we both agree, so the information people will get is that the whole community has your same ideas, because it's the only one that makes sense.
But you didn't explain your opinions, that was my point. It was a low-level, joke filled post. Just read the first paragraph. You're absolutely entitled to expressing your opinion and I don't want you to get this twisted, your post wasn't shit because I disagree with you. It was shit because any good point you made you failed to back up with facts or logic. Making polarizing claims such as "Any set other than Specs is bad." and "If you think scarf Vanilluxe has reasons to exist then you'd better start considering Scarf Audino and Specs Pyukumuku as an option." and making statements that show how flawed your conception of tiering policy is such as "...this tier needs it. Those fat lix-xatu-slowbro-incineroar balanced are probably the most splashable thing in the tier..." and "Oh and you can't ban Vanilluxe: it's one of the few mons able to punish Xatu, come on. " Your reply to my post has more of the content you should be posting in the first place, not jokes about how the suspect looks or how delicious it may be. I also don't think arguments that hinge on comments like "don't play brainlessly and think maybe one turn ahead of what's happening " are particularly good.

I may have been frank, but I was careful with my words to avoid offending you, in no way did I attack or insult you. If you cannot take criticism and instead write it off as someone trying to censor your opinions when you are asked to explain yourself, then I fail to see how you can be an informed voter or offer anything meaningful to discussion. These threads aren't about broadcasting your opinion so everyone knows your position and can feed you likes, they're for formal discussion and debate about Vanilluxe and whether it is ban-worthy based on Smogon tiering policies. So please, do us all a favor and stop trying to be funny to score an extra like or two.

It's not like you are building a team and you have 1 left slot and say "ok lets put Vanilluxe, it's broken everywhere". That's not happening.
I would sincerely hope not. If things were that obvious we wouldn't be having a suspect test, you'd be reading about Vanilluxe's quickban from the tier.

For the record I never expressed my opinion whether or not Vanilluxe is ban-worthy, I asked for clarification on points I thought were relevant and underexplored. I'm not sure why you ascribed positions to me based on my criticism of your post. I agree with Finchinator to the extent that Vanilluxe does not seem to be ban-worthy based on Smogon's tiering policy. The best argument for it going is probably that it is "unhealthy" which is the weakest case for banning any Pokemon.
 

Snou

the grand master of all the things bad!
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This is going to be the last post about this situation, because I'm really getting tired and it isn't even worth it. So, you're basically trying to tell me that my post wasn't a good one because I made some random joke in it? Man, we're discussing about pokémon, it's not matter of life and we aren't writing an essay, not even a Smogon analysis. If you think I didn't properly explain my opinions, even after the second post, there's nothing I can do, I'll accept the fact that you think I didn't and just go ahead.
However, Tsukishima is the best Haikyuu character, change my mind. (no pls, don't start saying it isn't the right place to discuss about this, pls)
 

elodin

the burger
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World Defender
I feel like it's about time Vanilluxe got a suspect test and wanted to share some of my opinions as to why that is.

Personally, I believe Vanilluxe is a much bigger issue on paper than it is in practice, where its breaking prowess is often not as effective as the ones of other Pokémon, such as Sceptile, Heliolisk, Magmortar, and others. While this might seem like a farfetched opinion, there are a few reasons as to why I believe this to be true in various games. Its Stealth Rock weakness is the first one, putting Vanilluxe on a timer in most games unless you have a team with exceptional hazard control - which is really hard to get in NU without making your team worse in the process, unless you match up very well into what your opponent is using -, which means almost all the time you're using Vanilluxe your team is going to be built completely around it. If you don't, it's likely that Vanilluxe will not be nearly as effective as it's supposed to in most games. Moving on, the other main reason is that his Speed tier is just not as good as the ones reached by other special breakers, which means it's a lot easier to offensively check Vanilluxe than those other Pokémon I mentioned. Lastly, while Ice is a great offensive typing, it's for sure the worst defensively. Despite Vanilluxe being relatively bulky, it's just not enough to come into multiple defensive Pokémon in NU without momentum support from Parting Shot, U-turn, or Volt Switch, or aggressive double switches. I'll get into this later.

Despite all of those reasons as to why I believe Vanilluxe is sometimes outclassed in games compared to other threats in NU, I still believe it deserves to be suspected and most likely banned. This Pokémon completely dominates the way teams are built in the tier. You can't ever build a team without a dedicated Vanilluxe answer, and that is saying something entirely different than building a team with a dedicated Ice resist. The 3 main reasons as to why that is are: 1) Hail chip means even solid answers such as Incineroar and Silvally-Steel can be easily worn down in most games, 2) Freeze-Dry STAB covers Water-types which would otherwise be your go-to answer to Ice-types in the tier (think of Slowbro and Vaporeon as answers to Glalie and Sneasel, for example), 3) 100% accurate Blizzard is just a ridiculously powerful STAB that basically 2HKOes or OHKOes most of the tier. That's not even mentioning the multiple sets it can run and the fact that its 2 staple STAB moves have a 10% chance to freeze, which is the most broken status in the game.

So basically, while Vanilluxe is less effective in practice from my perspective, it makes building patterns very predictable and completely shuts down certain teams, which makes matchup a huge issue in NU. No other Pokémon is able to do quite the same, and therefore it deserves a suspect in my opinion. The only thing that keeps me from saying I believe it should be banned 100% is the momentum support / aggressive double switches part that I previously mentioned and said I'd get into later. Someone recently brought up to me that Vanilluxe is a Pokémon that usually rewards the player that is playing better / making better plays to find opportunities for it to come into the field. This certainly holds a lot of value for me, as I do believe this to be true in multiple games considering how hard it is to find free switch-in opportunities with it and how much people end up overpreparing for Vanilluxe during building. Sure sometimes it just comes in on something like Palossand or Torterra for free, presses STAB and gets a KO - which is not exactly a huge display of better playing ability -, but I do feel like those are rarer given how much people prepare for Vanilluxe during building.

At the end of the day, I lean towards voting ban because I do feel like it strangles teambuilding too much to the point where it makes the tier predictable and unhealthy. Maybe laddering and discussion for the next couple weeks will change my mind though.
 
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Yoshi

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
So after playing around a bit more and reading through some of these posts I have changed my opinion a bit on Vanilluxe. Before, I was very adamant that it was a broken Pokemon, but I disagree with that now. Vanilluxe isn't broken by any means, and for this simple fact: While the meta has not exactly developed to make Vanilluxe unproblematic, the meta in theory can adapt. I know in some conversations I've had, I've boasted that the so called "counter play" is relatively unviable, but to be completely honest they are not unviable by any means. On top of that, it was only referring to the defensive counter play. If one keeps up pressure on the opponent, it can actually be very easy to offensively pressure Vanilluxe. Forcing it out and in will force it to take residual damage whether it be chip from hazards or pivot moves alike, reducing its longevity to near death. In this similar situation, I also said that it is easy to keep Vanilluxe in the back until the late game to "clean" but realistically Vanilluxe will almost never clean due to faster Pokemon like Passimian and Heliolisk existing (and while these Pokemon can be taken out beforehand, there won't always be a perfect situation realistically), and oftentimes you can't keep Vanilluxe in the back the whole time.

While those above things may be true, I do still lean towards ban on Vanilluxe. To quote myself from above, I said that while the meta has not adapted but in theory can adapt. With that in mind, there are some questions one could ask: Should the meta have to develop, and how hard is it to adapt? For starters, lets consider the defensive counter play to Vanilluxe. These are Pokemon like Incineroar, Silvally-Steel, Klinklang, Togedemaru, Hariyama, Miltank, and Cryogonal. While I still do stand by the fact that the first four cannot consistently check Vanilluxe throughout a match without keeping up offensive pressure, the latter three can hold their own against Vanilluxe for the entire match. This brings us back to the question asking if it is hard for the meta to adapt to Vanilluxe. If one is forced to use those three Pokemon on every team to have much greater chances in a Vanilluxe match up, then yes, it is difficult. All three of those Pokemon are hard to fit on teams. If you have a Passimian, the most splashable Pokemon in the tier, you will generally not have a Hariyama. The latter two are mostly seen on Stall teams, and while Stall has rose a bit in usage recently, one should not have to use stall when building to check Vanilluxe. With these situations in mind, it is clear that to consistently check Vanilluxe, one must really restrict themselves while building to do it. This is where I think Vanilluxe is considered banworthy, but instead of a broken way, in an unhealthy way.

To summarize, I don't believe Vanilluxe is broken anymore. Instead, I think it is unhealthy due to the effect it can have on team building if the meta goes more into a phase of adapting to Vanilluxe. While being "unhealthy" isn't the most convincing ban argument, I do think that it has a great enough effect on team building as to where I lean ban.
 
I've been always wanting to get into team building in NU. I used to do some in gen 6 NU but, it has been awhile since then. So, I figured now could be a good time since suspect is up. I don't participate in suspects that much because then the hobby feels like a job for me. But I figured I'd give my opinion as a decent player. While testing out teams for Vanniluxe and other teams without it, I came to understanding just how big of a threat it can be whenever it gets a free turn.
Punchroom was right, Vanniluxe is rarely punished for just shooting off blizzards and freeze-dry. A lot of the times I just flat out did not care when tossing out blizzards and sylvally steels would just get worn down massively because of the high STAB, hail damage, and hazards. And others were right about its bulk being decent due its high stats, Slowbro usually fails to OHKO with Fire Blast (especially with fatter sets) and freeze dry will just outright 2HKO. 252+ SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Vanilluxe: 228-270 (80.5 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Its honestly pretty crazy what Vanilluxe can pull off but, it does take a good amount of team support and doubles.
Here's a team I worked on for the past week. I know some people look for teams around this time and if you're looking for one that handles the meta (including Vannilluxe) then maybe this one will help.
https://pokepast.es/c18197326f14b28ahttps://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-858464313https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-858453878
 

Sjneider

swag to the yolo
is a Tiering Contributoris a defending SCL Champion
So this is actually my first metagame post ever so apologies if it isn’t exactly the best post. However, I’d still like to share my two cents on the ice cream with you all so here goes

I definitely see why some people may think that Vanilluxe is super threatening with its spammable blizzard and great sets in specs and icicle plate+ taunt. Yet, I don't think that the ice cream restricts teambuilding to the point where it should be banned. Common ice cream checks such as Wish Delphox, AV Slowbro, and Incineroar simply serve many other functions than just pivoting in as an ice cream check. For instance, SD Berry Incin is a great wallbreaker and helps punches holes for a late game cleaner like Comfey in addition to acting as the team’s ice cream check. I’m also going to echo what Snou said earlier about the ice cream’s ability to punish the fat Steelix-Xatu-Slowbro-Incin cores that you see plenty of in this tier and also add that there isn’t exactly a whole lot of mons that can achieve this to begin with. This is why I think keeping the ice cream would actually be healthy for the metagame since banning it will definitely make fatter team archetypes (think blarghlfarghl ) unnecessarily strong.

After having laddered for reqs, I can definitely say that the 35 games I played basically confirmed what I had written above and is why I will be voting no ban.
 
We are used to several pokemon brokens in the tier that use their great power that we naturalize.
Some of them are Comfey, Dhelmise, Vikavolt, Passimian until Clawitzer hits very powerful.
And on the bulky side, we have things like Scrafty and Vileplum that are really cool.
All of them lack a bit to maybe get higher in the rank, but they are too good in their niches.
What do I want to say? That with all those pokemons present I barely noticed that the ice cream was broken xd.
Yes, you can do 2hko with rocks to almost the entire meta with Blizard specs (including several special defenders)
But as it is said, it is weak to rocks, bad defensive type, and its speed is no wonder ......
And it has many checks and revenge killers. Added to that the tier has become protect + toxic everywhere, allowing to predict it easily.
And to top it off, there are several checks that learn many methods of recovery, such as Slowbro, Vaporeon, Slowking.
I almost forgot! Pokémon with double priorities like the combo fake out + bullet punch or whatever, Medicham, Hariyama, Incineroar, Ambipom (yes, him) added to the rocks can make the ice cream only enter once in the whole battle.

Finally, mega Abomasnow was tested and he stay in the tier, it is used little, but it is still a very powerful pokemon, in my opinion superior to ice cream, so probably vote no ban.

Do not mention the S rank because we already know everyone, and Incineroar is the best counter of the ice cream.
 
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etern

is a Community Leaderis a Top Tiering Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a defending SCL Championis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
NU Leader
I can definitely understand some of the arguments towards Vanilluxe not being banworthy, Finchinator in particular summed them up pretty well. That being said, I've noticed a lot of really shoddy logic being used which is incredibly counterproductive to the suspect process and does nothing but confuse people trying to use this thread as a resource in understanding how Vanilluxe functions. I'd rather not specifically call out people because everyone has the right to their opinion, so instead I'm just going to try and address some of the shakier counterarguments I've seen in a general sense throughout the suspect and then share my own thoughts at the end.

First of all, claiming that the tier relies on Vanilluxe to break certain cores is not only objectively false, but flat-out irrelevant to this suspect test. Vanilluxe is being suspect tested because Vanilluxe is a potentially broken element in the metagame, it should be judged on it's own qualities and whether or not it's too overwhelming for the tier or overtly restrictive in the teambuilder. What we should be avoiding completely is operating under the "preserve broken element to check other potentially broken element" mentality, it's incredibly harmful for the tier and invalidates the process entirely. Hypothetically, if we were to ban Vanilluxe and other Pokemon proved to be problematic afterwards, we'd address those issues as needed. Vanilluxe should not be forced to hold the burden of keeping Pokemon you feel are otherwise broken in check, and your opinions of thinking other Pokemon deserve a suspect more than Vanilluxe likewise should hold no bearing on whether or not Vanilluxe itself is broken. That being said, it's fine to mention Vanilluxe's ability to threaten specific archetypes (Sjneider did this nicely in his post) as long as it's not part of the basis of your argument against Vanilluxe not being broken.

Moving on from that, I strongly believe Vanilluxe is too overwhelming for the tier due to it's raw power, lack of needing to predict, ability to bust through Offense and many of it's defensive counters, which is evident through the ridiculous stranglehold it has in teambuilding. Punchshroom summed this up perfectly, Vanilluxe requires basically no prediction when Blizzard + Hail Chip is doing outrageous damage to everything other than a select handful of niche counters (primarily made viable because of Vanilluxe's overbearing presence). The fact the only coverage move you need is STAB Freeze-Dry is ridiculous and opens up so many door for Vanilluxe to get past would-be counters without needing to sacrifice any consistency or effectiveness at all. Not to mention that the list of Pokemon that can consistently check Vanilluxe is arguably smaller than any other Pokemon in the tier when you take into account it's Speed. I feel like some people are being a bit overly generous in terms of what can actually check Vanilluxe, and the fact that many of these borderline Pokemon open up a ton of holes in building makes it even more problematic. I'll go through some of the common ones just to show how easy it is for Vanilluxe to get past them.
  • Miltank: TauntToxic, SubToxic, and ToxicProtect all put Miltank on a timer and ensure that you beat it either on the spot, or at the very least by midgame. Keep in mind that outside of checking Vanilluxe; Miltank is a subpar Pokemon at best that gets easily taken advantage of and opens up many holes in teams that can be near impossible to patch up. (You'll notice that a lot of Miltank teams are either extremely weak to Electric-types, lack a Flying- and Normal- resist, struggle to pressure certain balance builds due to it being a horrible rocker, and can get easily overwhelmed by Toxic spam.)

  • Cryogonal: Once again, another subpar passive check that gets ruined by Toxic, except this one has a Stealth Rock weakness, gets heavily pressured by Specs Flash Cannon, and is often relied upon to keep hazards off the field which leads to it getting chipped and worn down very quickly. It's interesting that Vanilluxe's weakness to Stealth Rock gets brought up so often when it's such an integral thorn in the side of it's most common counters.

  • Incineroar: Z-Move gets flat out 2HKO'd by Specs Blizzard while SD Figy Berry can come in once and no longer checks anything because you've lost about 55% to Blizzard + Hail (not even accounting for SR here). Berry Pivot is slightly better, though it's crippled by Toxic, still takes a large chunk from Specs Blizzard or HP Fighting, still gets smacked for 25% everytime it comes in on SR, and can easily lose its berry to the wide array of Knock Off spamming mons it also tries to check, such as Sneasel. SpD Bulk Up Incineroar is a good Vanilluxe check and in theory should check every set, though it's nowhere near as splashable as the other sets, and still needs to worry about not having SR on the field as well as the fact that it cannot immediately threaten Vanilluxe due to Power Trip's low initial power.

  • Delphox: Similarly to Incineroar, Delphox is easily whittled by Stealth Rock meaning offensive sets like Calm Mind and Scarf are one-time checks at best. SpD WishTect is a fine check, it outspeeds and KO's Vanilluxe and can sustain itself for a good amount of time. However it still faces the issue of being crippled by Toxic, a common coverage move on non Specs Vanilluxe. It's also worth noting that a lot of the hazard control that fits with Delphox gets absolutely demolished by Vanilluxe, which can make things much more difficult for the Delphox user than it might seem on paper. Silvally-Steel and Delphox overlap quite a bit, which is why you won't really see them together much, and that leaves things like Xatu, Dhelmise, Decidueye, and Rotom with the burden of keeping off hazards while avoiding being blown away by Vanilluxe.

  • Hariyama: This Pokemon is really not good, but some people seem to like it so I'll quickly go over it. Leftovers Protect Hariyama is inevitably getting Knocked Off fairly early, meaning you've got no recovery. If you somehow manage to avoid the 20 Knock users in the tier, your Leftovers are still being negated by Hail which leaves you at a net loss everytime you need to stomach a Blizzard or Normalium-Z Hyper Beam. Hariyama is difficult to justify in general, and the susceptibility it has to being worn down so quickly and easily means it's not anywhere near as good of a check as it's being tooted as.

  • Silvally-Steel: Silvally on it's own is a very poor Vanilluxe check. It comes in twice with rocks up and succumbs to repeated Blizzards + Hail due to having no form of recovery. Silvally in combination with Vaporeon on the other hand is probably one of the most effective ways to deal with Vanilluxe, and there's no straightforward way for Vanilluxe to break this core... Until you realise that it takes one Freeze-Dry to put Vaporeon into Blizzard action, and suddenly you've lost your Silvally's Wish Passer and Vaporeon itself. That being said, it's still consistent enough to be a respectable core, but it's by no means a hard stop to Vanilluxe, and can result in very one dimensional builds which the Vanilluxe user can take advantage of. Not every team is going to be based around Silvally / Vaporeon balance, and it shouldn't need to be that way in order to be prepared enough for one Pokemon.

  • Revenge Killers: I feel like a lot of people overestimate how easy it is to revenge Vanilluxe, particularly the non-choiced sets which are arguably more effective at this point in time. Protect is a common mon on Z-Move and NeverMeltIce which allows you to do two key things, 1. Scout Passimian (which lets you switch out and stall a CC, or stay in on a U-Turn / Knock Off and claim a kill) and 2. Scout Sneasel (which lets you scout for Pursuit or stay in if you're Z-Move, chew a CB Knock Off and KO Sneasel in return.) Given these are two of the most common Pokemon in the tier, particularly on more offensive builds, it's incredibly useful and a testament to Vanilluxe's flexibility that it has the option of scouting and dealing with these supposed revenge killers with ease. Moreover, Vanilluxe can actually stomach some strong hits from full; e.g Specs Heliolisk relies on a roll to KO Vanilluxe after SR, while it cannot OHKO it at all from full unless it's the rare Specs Focus Blast. Glalie-Mega needs very high rolls in it's favour to 2HKO Vanilluxe with Double Edge, while it is cleanly 2HKO'd by Specs Blizzard 100% of the time, and OHKO'd by Flash Cannon. Outside of that there's not a ton of Pokemon in the Speed Tiers between Vanilluxe and Glalie that are relevant enough to mention, outside of Magmortar which is obviously a fine one-time offensive check to Vanilluxe. This is all without even taking to account autotomize which comfortably cleans offense as well as Scarf (not a bad set at all, like others have falsely claimed earlier) which is a huge threat that can surprise would be revenge killers like Sceptile and Sigilyph.
I could go on longer about what such a centralising offensive threat does to teambuilding, but I feel like that much is self explanatory at this point. It has less than a handful of consistently decent checks and a few more shaky ones which has made teambuilding quite one dimensional. Just the fear of facing a Vanilluxe warps teambuilding in such a way that you can't afford to ignore it and soft-check or else you'll get absolutely annihilated. It's evident in both many SPL and Snake Draft games from the past 6 months that Vanilluxe has been a dominating force for a long time and I personally feel it's one of the main culprits behind teambuilding stagnation. Banning Vanilluxe will open up the meta much more, allow room for other playstyles to thrive, and even allow us to gain a better understand and perspective of other Pokemon in the metagame which could potentially be problematic. As it stands, I feel that Vanilluxe is far too oppressive for how easy to use and consistent it is. This coupled with the excessively negative impact it has on teambuilding is unhealthy and harmful towards the development of the tier, thus I'll be voting to Ban Vanilluxe.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
So what notable Pokémon have gotten better / worse now that Vanilluxe is banned? Or has nothing rlly changed at the moment?
I could see Vileplume becoming even better (although it was already picking up a lot of momentum before Ice Cream ban). Other notable threats that I've seen rising are Decidueye and Braviary specifically as they no longer fear being OHKOed by the amazing wallbreaker.

Besides that I don't see the metagame changing too drastically. Incineroar and SteelVally are still useful mons that can be placed on a lot of balance teams (especially the former) while stuff like Mega Glalie and Sneasel have slight less competition for best Ice breaker in the tier.
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
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OU Leader
So what notable Pokémon have gotten better / worse now that Vanilluxe is banned? Or has nothing rlly changed at the moment?
More reason to use Mega Glalie. Also, the Figy Berry SD Incineroar is less necessary, perhaps freeing up room for increased Z Incineroar usage. Xatu and Gastrodon are also less easy to take advantage of and perhaps have a greater utility appeal now.
 

poh

<?>
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Now that Grass-types got even better with Vanilluxe's ban, I wanted to share a set with you all that might help you dealing with them better.


http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/sprites/xyani/passimian.gif

Passimian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Receiver
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics

Acrobatics might not make a lot of sense on a mon that holds an item but Passimian is arguably one of the most popular mons that can afford having its item knocked off. To turn a negative into a positive, Acrobatics hits Grass-types like Vileplume, Decidueye, Dhelmise for a good amount of damage. A decent alternative to soften up the increasing Grass type matchup.

252 Atk Passimian Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 182-216 (51.4 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Passimian Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 286-338 (96.2 - 113.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Passimian Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise: 226-268 (70.6 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
So since Vanilluxe has left the building, I've been looking at possible replacements for it that could similarly corebreak. Here are some Ice-type breakers that I believe could find a better niche for themselves in the meta.



Y'all know what this is about; STAB BoltBeam was and still is pretty dope. It consistently proves itself to be an annoyance to switch into at best or a mon that can claim a kill whenever it faces off a slower mon weak to its STABs. That is provided its Blizzard lands its mark of course. FrostTom can still make use of its potent SubSplit set that makes use of Icium Z and the safety net of Substitute to launch Blizzards as risk-free as possible, while shocking anything that attempts to resist it and buffering itself from revenge killing attempts. FrostTom also makes for a pretty decent Choice Scarfer in its own right, due to its ability to pivot while outspeeding the other base 80 Speed Scarf U-turners. While regular Rotom makes for an arguably better Scarfer since its typing lets it check U-turners better while not being weak to Stealth Rock, FrostTom's advantages lie in its ability to threaten fast Grass-types like Sceptile while not being as vulnerable to certain other fast threats, namely Heliolisk and Sneasel.


Now this is a sleeper threat; previously only really known for being a lead for Veil teams, Aurorus can now attempt offensive roles again now that it's no longer completely overshadowed by Vanilluxe. Aurorus's negative traits compared to Vanilluxe don't even stand out that much in this meta: Aurorus retains the same accurate Blizzard + Freeze-Dry combination, and Choice Specs Aurorus still has enough power to OHKO Rhydon and 2HKO Vaporeon & AV Slowbro. Its lesser Speed tier is less pronounced since the mons that sit between base 58 and 79 (such as Decidueye and Samurott) are not particularly popular, with the only really notable one being offensive Incineroar. However, Aurorus's Rock typing even manages to provide a bit of protection, making it so that Fire-types like Incineroar and Delphox have much greater difficulty checking it while also helping to punish Brave Bird spam from Scarf Braviary or Golbat. Meanwhile, Aurorus has a significant amount of bulk which mirrors that of Alolan Exeggutor, a wallbreaker known for being very hard to OHKO without the strongest of neutral hits. However, Aurorus usually exemplifies this bulk by taking less powerful super effective attacks, such as AV Bro's Scald, Incineroar's Earthquake, and even Specs Sceptile's Giga Drain, all of which it can survive without SR, much less the uninvested attacks of the walls it can break.

Aurorus also has superior coverage, with Earth Power catching Fire- and Steel-type switch-ins and even obscure moves such as Psychic to 2HKO Hariyama and Rock Tomb to destroy Cryogonal and Articuno, meaning Aurorus can circumvent most of the less conventional Ice counters without much hassle. Speaking of less conventional, Aurorus also has the Speed tier to attempt a Rock Polish set, as +2 Modest Aurorus still outruns Scarf base 80s, and Modest Life Orb Blizzard OHKOes Passimian after SR, so it definitely still packs a good bit of punch, though it would likely be pretty reliant on the scare factor of the Specs set to find good setup opportunities. These are probably more side notes than anything, but Aurorus's access to Calm Mind intrigues me, since the other Blizzard spammers do not have boosting options, which allows Aurorus to terrorize bulky builds even harder by punishing their pivoting attempts. I've also found this Aurorus set to make decent use of type-resist berries, particularly Passho Berry and Rindo Berry, since it easily baits in attacks from Pokemon that it can kill back in return, letting Aurorus pull off hilarious moments like punishing overeager Sceptiles, Heliolisks, or Decidueyes, or having the likes of Vileplume, Vaporeon, and Slowbro watch in horror as you set up on their attack with impunity and freely threaten Specs-like damage with health to spare.

Any other interesting Pokemon you can identify in this new meta? Discuss now!
 
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Yoshi

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
So since SPL started, there are quite a few trends that I have noticed are coming more and more common. I figured that I'd note them here, because it is always nice to know what is going on and changing with the meta, and what could change as a result of these Pokemon / strategies becoming more common.

@
/

Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Bold Nature
Sludge Bomb
Will-O-Wisp
Pain Split
Toxic Spikes

The most recognizable of trends this year probably has to be the rise of Toxic Spikes, but more specifically, Weezing. Weezing was introduced during the sand meta, as a check of sorts to the Sand abusers like Sandslash and Stoutland thanks to high physical bulk alongside Will-O-Wisp. Since then, it has sort of been a mainstay in the meta, and although it did see a sharp decrease in usage once Gigalith was banned, it has picked up again since then since SPL. The reason for this is most likely because Weezing has a much easier time fitting on bulkier builds than something like Garbodor, mainly thanks to the added utility of moves like Will-O-Wisp and Pain Split (Garb can't always fit Pain Split or use it too effectively). Another huge added benefit of Weezing is Levitate; removing the Ground weakness allows Weezing to take on the Stealth Rock users in the tier, which is a massive bonus. You can easily just run a max HP max Defense spread, but I included this spread with an added 100 EVs in SpD as this allows you to take on max Special Attack Diancie and Slowbro a lot easier (leaving Power Gem and Scald under 2HKOs without Stealth Rock). Definitely a great Pokemon in this meta which has been shown off quite a bit this SPL.

@

Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
Zing Zap
Iron Head
U-turn
Nuzzle
Togedemaru is another thing that has come up a bit in not only SPL, but in general as well. Most people use the Choice Scarf set, but that's necessary to clarify because Togedemaru has had periods where it would run either Choice Scarf or a SpDef set. Togedemaru is fairly fast Choice Scarf user, and being able to out speed certain Pokemon that Passimian can't, very specifically Accelgor, is a really nice trait. It is also a great check to Diancie, which has been rising quite a bit in usage. Moreover, it is also a Choice Scarf user that checks Heliolisk, thanks to the access of Lightning Rod, although it runs the risk of getting blown back by Focus Blast. Fairly simple stuff here, not overly complicated. Nuzzle is usually run to paralyze other Pokemon which can be really nice for the more offensive Pokemon of the tier, especially when they might switch in non-Ground-type checks.

@

Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
Scald
Toxic
Rapid Spin
Refresh / Ice Beam

Blastoise is another Pokemon that has been high in usage recently, although I think for the wrong reasons. I don't think that offensive Blastoise sets are all that outstanding, I'd rather use a faster and stronger breaker over Blastoise, although it is a good lure. The most offensive I would go in my builds is an Icium Z set with Ice Beam to lure Xatu and Vileplume, although that does leave you extremely susceptible to getting Toxicd, which pretty much shuts defensive Blastoise down without a Heal Bell Diancie on the team. It is really just an overall great bulky spinner that has access to some other great utility moves. In fact, it can run Ice Beam without Icium Z, still allowing you to 2HKO Xatu (but miss out on a 2HKO on Vileplume). In case you want a quick large burst of recovery, Z-Refresh is there for you as well, instantaneously healing Blastoise to full and curing all status. Overall, Blastoise has a lot of good defensive options, especially with utility, and has seen quite a rise in usage recently.

To talk more about offensive sets, there are quite a few that I have seen. Mostly super mega offensive Z-Sets with like Waterium Z or Icium Z, but I have also seen fast and bulky Blastoise, alongside even a Choice Specs set (which I am quite fond of actually). I don't think that these are that good because Blastoise isn't all that fast in general, and doesn't exactly have the power to back that up. Therefore, what oftentimes happens is that Blastoise simply just isn't doing enough damage and gets overwhelmed too much, and isn't always super effective in matches. However, that is extremely match-up dependent, so someone may have had a completely different experience than I've had, but I've used a lot of offensive Blastoise sets through teams I've gotten (shoutouts to quziel), and that's the general feel that I get.
 
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Abejas

Yo where Ken at
is a Top Tiering Contributor
163062


Hitmonlee @ Life Orb
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- High Jump Kick
- Blaze Kick
- Rapid Spin / Mach Punch / Stone Edge

Hitmonlee is a really underrated pokemon in the current metagame, even tho there is a growing usage of poison types due to Comfey being such a pain, lee is able to 2HKO or 3HKO most of these. Hitmonlee has a great speed tier, a fantastic base attack of 120 and a surprising base 110 Special Defense, making it a really threatening wallbreaker to deal with. The combination of this base 120 attack paired with the Reckless ability makes anything not resisted or immune to High Jump Kick simply dead. The diverse movepool this pokemon has makes it able to run a couple of cool sets. Stone Edge lee can work as a great lure to Golbat and make it easier for another pokemon such as Comfey to sweep late game, Blaze Kick lets Hitmonlee 2HKO Vileplume, Dhelmise and even Decidueye which are normally your fighting-type resist. Finally, Mach Punch gives lee a form of priority which lets it check Mega Glalie, Sneasel and Heliolisk. Assault Vest Slowbro being more common then physically defensive Slowbro makes this mon so much fun to use since its able to 2HKO it with High Jump Kick into Knock Off. While its pretty hard to splash lee due to Passimian being so much easier to use thanks to its bulk+U-turn, the appearance of other scarfers such as Togedemaru makes this mon easier to fit into teams.

252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Slowbro: 144-170 (37.5 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Slowbro: 239-283 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 125-148 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- 81.1% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Blaze Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 185-218 (52.2 - 61.5%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Vileplume: 179-211 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Weezing: 107-126 (32 - 37.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Passimian: 341-402 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garbodor: 185-218 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Blaze Kick vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise: 229-270 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Blaze Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 289-341 (97.3 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Comfey: 170-201 (56.2 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Here is a nice replay of Lee putting in some pressure
 
To preface this post I just want to make it clear I don't necessarily think any of these Pokemon are downright broken, although I do think some are unhealthy for the current meta and I think it's definitely worth putting a discussion up for them.

Vileplume has always been present since the beginning of SM, and for a good while, it was just accepted as an annoying fighting and fairy resist. However, recently with the increased usage in mixed defence (more specially defensive usually) and growth sets, and the sheer lack of reliable and consistent checks, I do think Vileplume has become unhealthy for the tier. Being a total (plus chipping with helmet + 30% of effect spore) sponge to top offensive threats like Comfey, Passimian, Heliolisk, and Sceptile is pretty absurd for all of those to be checked within one pokemon. As well as it capitalizing on a myriad of more passive Pokemon like Vaporeon, Xatu, Druddigon, and Blastoise with Growth sets. Which brings me onto my next point, with that being Vileplume's traditional checks usually don't do a very good job at that at all anymore. Vileplume after setup can actually beat a lot of Silvally-Steel and Weezing due to Special Attack boosts and both Pokemon being easily chipped down via numerous outlets. As well as this, almost all of Vileplume's checks are weak to Stealth Rock and cannot switch into Sludge Bomb well. To give a few examples; Incineroar, Mega Glalie, Magmortar, and Braviary.

0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Incineroar: 115-136 (34.7 - 41%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Glalie-Mega: 127-150 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magmortar: 109-130 (37.4 - 44.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 160 SpD Braviary: 109-130 (27 - 32.2%) -- 54.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Braviary: 133-157 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Delphox: 106-126 (30 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Delphox: 105-124 (36 - 42.6%) -- 87.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Keep in mind the 30% chance to poison as well, basically making it so these Pokemon can only switch in once with Rocks up, or will be forced to recover after Rocks + Sludge, such as Braviary and Delphox. Also, Roar, Mag, and Phox can't really be run together on the same team due to overlap with Fire-types, and common teammates for Plume like Diancie, Steelix, Passimian, and Roar / Phox make it so these mons are all manageable with proper support.

Plume warps the meta in a weird way. The cycle of Vileplume checking every mon bar a few that can be exploited for reasons stated above has become increasingly problematic for the tier. But I don't think it's just Plume that s the issue. Incineroar, Heliolisk, and Comfey are all very influential in building and playing.

Swords Dance Roar is still a menace, with most teams reliant Passimian to revenge it, which becomes pretty hard if they just get one Flare Blitz off on it and takes a massive chunk. Whereas stuff like Vaporeon, Phys def Slowbro, and Diancie can all be dealt with after a Swords Dance plus some minor circumstantial factors. Figy Berry sets can give it the ability to recover off from something like a Scald from Vaporeon, attacks from Comfey, or a Sludge Bomb from Plume, whereas Z-Move sets are good for obvious reasons, like being ridiculously strong.

Choice Specs and Life Orb Heliolisk sets are still highly threatening, with Plume being the only realistic switch in, but even then, specs hyper voice still does around half, and always 2hkoing after rocks since most need at least some speed if you're going max spd. Whereas sets like Life Orb tbolt / hyper voice / grass knot / dark pulse are basically impossible to switch in (i do think gk and dpulse are more worthwhile than surf btw, since gk always ohkos palo and toad, as well as dealing a load to lix, and dpulse for increased defog decid use).

Comfey is probably the least problematic out of the 4 here, although it's existence is a big contributor to how the meta is rn. Comfey was a major reason in the increased poison-type usage on nearly every team, like Vileplume and Weezing, as well as revenge killing so, so many offensive mons. Like Pass, Helio, and pretty much most other mons. Also, with it being able to either run HP Fire or HP Ground and basically putting the opponent in a guessing game is not ideal whatsoever, being able to power through Delphox and Roar more easily with HP Ground, and chipping off Plume with HP Fire if boosted / Vileplume chipped.

Overall, I think NU definitely has some cleaning up to do, as I don't think this meta is ideal at all to play in or build in. So I think having a discussion for these mons and hopefully, eventually taking some sort of action against them would improve the state of the tier.
 
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