Metagame NP: NU Stage 12 - Higher Ground

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Luck O' the Irish

banned in dc
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For some context here, I think there being reqs farmers has been an issue that has existed as long as I’ve been around to varying extents in NU, which has been over 7 years now. I looked at the voting list again and when you compare it to some suspects back in Oras, like Jesus Christ. If you played the ladder back in the day during a suspect you’d think rain would be the most dominant playstyle in the meta. There was a cool policy back in the day too where if you wanted to get TC you had to make posts in the NP thread and it was comical in hindsight how many terrible posts were barfed into the forums as a results of this, although it was more irksome than funny at the time.

I think it’s fair to argue that there’s probably bias when you breakdown the votes, demographically in each individual suspect, ex nu tournament regular, nu ladder player, lower tiers tournament player/Mainers, reqs farmers. I don’t see any basis for there being bias towards ban/no ban holistically. And obviously 30-50 games is a small sample size particularly when 5-10 of those games are against hypersonic-alt and sonic the sandslash, but for the most part that dip is going to give you an idea on whether or not something is demonstrably broken or unhealthy.

I do see your point where something like goodra or groundvally is debatably broken you’d have more experienced players casting votes than not. But there’s no real way to change that without there being bizarre and arbitrary decisions on who else s and is not allowed to vote. Considering all the contradictory constraints here It’s tough to find different ways to make changes to these tiering decisions without there being egregious oversteps in one direction or it being moot changes.

TLDR: I am a smogon centrist
 

Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Yeah the suspect process is flawed and all, but even if we decentivize suspect laddering by taking away badges or try to add some sort of tour element to the voting process, we're actively ignoring the larger issue around these suspects. It's effectively impossible to truly gauge how good or bad something is at times because ladder meta is unviable.

I really believe that this is a very quick fix. Obviously you can't sit down every charizardfan456 and tell them that if, god forbid, they decide to run Arcanine they need Heavy-Duty-Boots on it or that Hitmontop is actual garbage, but you can still easily influence the way people build and how they access resources like the VR or NP thread by simply implementing May's AMAZING suggestion here into our builder. By actually showing people what is generally considered viable as they try to make teams, I promise you'll end up with a drastically different ladder meta within a matter of weeks.

An actually viable ladder meta would help to bridge the disconnect between tour players, ladder players, and suspect mains while (hopefully) creating a more balanced breeding ground for suspects and cool innovation. I 100000% think that something along these lines should be implemented and that the TL's should try and push for this before the next suspect if possible.
 

roxie

https://www.youtube.com/@noxiousroxie
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Not making a long post but Silvally-Ground glues this tier together honestly. I think Silvally-Ground is impactful in the teambuilder but the tier does have some checks/counters like Rotom-C, Inteleon, Weezing, Dhelmise, Quagsire, Mantine, Tangela, Mudsdale (or w/e). U-turn does suck when it pivots out on like Dhlemise/Tangela, however this means that faster Pokemon are able to check it more easier. On Flame Charge's end, It's actually not pivoting out of aforementioned defensive Pokemon. Other things have been brought up like Facade/Psychic Fangs as lures but you're losing coverage for something really significant. This reminds me of Dark Pulse Blastoise. Not using Earthquake means you miss coverage for: Heliolisk, Toxicroak, Dragalge, and Copperajah.

Piggybacking to the point of holding the tier together, there are a lot of offensive Pokemon you have to account for such as Dragalge, Grimmsnarl, Indeedee-F, and Tyrantrum. Dragalge is awfully slow but it takes advantage of utility Pokemon like Vaporeon, Sylveon, and Mantine. Grimmsnarl also takes advantage of slower builds with Vaporeon, Copperajah, and Talonflame. Indeedee-F lacks the speed as its male form leaving it slower than Silvally-Ground, Drapion, and Rotom-C. I think we can agree that Choice Scarf a more common set and is probably the tier's second best Choice Scarfer. I honestly thought Tyrantrum would be centralizing with Bronzong leaving but the tier adjusted to using Silvally-Ground to mimic the role that Flygon had in the tier. I believe Silvally-Ground is a positive presence in the tier overall.

edit: second best scarfer behind rotom-mow
 
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Stuff that's on my radar rn, mini rant post type thing:

:dragalge: I'm tired of being forced to use Escavalier on every team or just be 100x better than my opponent to deal with this thing. It's a nice tool defensively for a lot of teams but its recently abused offensive capabilities are way too much to deal with currently.

:silvally-ground: I don't know how this thing wasn't banned but the same issues exist and has next to 0 defensive counterplay for U-Turn sets and Flame Charge sets are still sweeping offensive teams with minimal effort. The bulk and speed still feels like too much and although people aren't using it as much, whenever it is used it farms. A lot of counterplay relies on pivoting in Pokemon that literally die if Silvally clicks the right move like Talonflame in on Multi / U-Turn and praying they don't Rock Slide or bringing in Scarf Mow hoping they don't do over half w U-Turn then even if they don't you have to win a 50/50 on whether you volt or leaf storm anyway. You can also force Rotom to Trick away its scarf with stuff like Snorlax and Scrafty and even Vileplume.

:rotom-mow: Keeping this thing around is not worth it, it provides a lot for the tier but this thing is actually so broken and if people just used non-Scarf sets I think that'd be more clear. The broken-checks-broken dynamic that this and Silvally share is incredibly annoying considering they also synergize perfectly when used together and also don't actually check each other.

:snorlax: Stacking this thing w something else neutered by Trick when Trick is like the only way to beat this without a Vileplume makes this thing really broken when I use it. So many auto wins but ppl should also prep better for it idk.
 
:dragalge:
there is literally no defensive counterplay (av copperajah is 2hkoed by draco lmfaooo)

:indeedee-f:
there is literally no defensive counterplay (av copperajah/max spdef stakataka are 2hkoed after spikes and escavalier is threatened by mystical fire, dazzling gleam scares darks bar drapion, which is mid tbh)

:silvally:-Ground
there is very limited defensive counterplay (that is easily overwhelmed by silvally-ground itself LOL), restricting teambuilding (p.s.: we have no scarfers)

where is the BAN HAMMER? >:(

also aurorus :aurorus:, virizion :virizion: and galarian articuno :articuno-galar: are pretty sick please rank in C/C+

edit: WILL ELABORATE FURTHER... UHHH... EVENTUALLY! YES, YES.... UHHH, SURE WILL!
 
I definitely do agree with the posts above:

Might Need to Ban-

:dragalge: (Adaptability + STABS + Focus Blast go brrr)
Dragalge has non-existent defensive counterplay. People use Escavalier, but, if you keep up offensive pressure with Talonflame, which Specs Dragalge most likely has as a partner-or with anything that can hit Escav but pivot as well-Specs Galge gets the 3HKO with Draco.

:silvally-ground:(ground) [add dirt]
Silvally-Ground has the same problem as Galge; non-existent defensive counterplay. Vaporeon loses 70% of the time if it predicts it coming in and goes for SD (if scald doesn't burn, which my opponents always get somehow but I never do. lol. wtf.) Flame Charge makes it outspeed all our good scarfers bar Heliolisk. Unless you're always running Vaporeon + Grass Knot Helio (which actually takes care of it) and keep them around until late game, you're dead.

:rotom-mow: (way better w/o Scarf)
It works WAY too well with Silvally-Ground. The only reason we still have it is like what Togchamp said. Broken checks broken dynamic. Also, if this thing got banned, I assume Blastoise would be next as its only counterplay would be Toxic from Vaporeon then some Protect stall + lots of switching or the new tech Yache Tsareena, which I'm planing to abuse. Ty Catalisador for making this an actual thing-ish: Cata bringing our golden child on a team.

:indeedee-f: (plz join ur brother in NUBL)
I believe that there is virtually little to no defensive counterplay. You might say Stakataka, but that has too big faults that Indeedee-F's team can abuse: it's 4x weaknesses and no reliable recovery, meaning Indeedee-F can chip it down and wins in the long run. Coverage also goes stupid.

Edit:

:blastoise:
As discussed above, if Rotom-C leaves, there aren't very many checks. Yache Tsar and Toxic + switching.

Cool 'Mons-

:snorlax: (insert Z Pulverizing Pancake animation here)
I agree with Togchamp, again, this kind of does win upon match-up and having smth neutered by Trick helps it a ton. But people really should prep better. I haven't loss to it so far-it's probably because I have a stupid strong wallbreaker one most of my teams but still. Also, I've been trying out CB recently; it goes stupid. Only problem is being aggressive w/it like bringing it in on Staka like nothing might hint at you having Earthquake.

:sylveon:(the pride eeveelution :3)
Yes, this is definitely not banworthy, but, recently, I've been trying this demonic CM Rest Sylv, and, in short: It's stupid. Pairing this with Lax to weaken Steels or surprise them with an OHKO from Banded Earthquake, paves the way for it to 6-0. If they lack a fairy resist or a strong enough wallbreaker that isn't weak to Fairy, it's an auto-win.

:tyrantrum: (Tyranitar's disgraced cousin)
People should use this more. Wallbreaks like stupid only held back by Quagsire. Haven't used the DD set, so I can't comment on that, but I'll vouch on the CB Head Smash + Rock Head combo. Basically, the faster Aggron of NU.

:tsareena: (the queen)
People should really start leaving Rotom-C for Tsar. What's not to like? It has: actually reliable recovery (not Pain Split), provides Knock Off support, safer pivoting with U-turn (not stopped by Grounds), provides hazard control that doesn't get rid of the ones you set, checks Blastoise with Yache as well (albeit only 85% of the time due to P Whip missing but that's only 5% worse than Rotom-C; half the chance of getting frozen!), and brings amazing wallbreaking capabilities with its sky-high Attack stat. An All-out Attacker Tsar works amazing too, dismantling slower builds like nothing!
 
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