np: NU Stage 11 - The End

People are discussing the best walls in NU and nobody has mentioned Musharna yet? Really?

Let's just go through the good points again:

Great natural bulk, and a typing which allows it to be the only true Sawk counter in the tier.
A reliable recovery move, albeit one with low PP.
Synchronise and Heal Bell, which render status an ineffectual method of dealing with it.
Access to Baton Pass and a brilliantly miserable speed stat, which finds great use on balanced teams to give frailer teammates free switch-ins, as well as easing its woes versus Pursuit users.
The ability to take a more offensive route with Calm Mind, which is a great win condition for stall teams.
It can also combine Calm Mind and Baton Pass to support its teammates even further.

The one thing for me that makes Musharna so great, though, is that Musharna is very much a pick-and-mix Pokemon. By which I mean, you can literally pick the moves from its movepool that most support your team, stick them on Musharna, and it can do a job. Team too slow? Run Thunder Wave. Need to wear down bulkier opponents? Run Toxic. Suffering from status? Run Heal Bell. Need some momentum? Run Baton Pass. Whatever you need Musharna to do, it can probably do it.

And the problems:

It's Taunt bait.

Except every wall is Taunt bait. That's kinda what Taunt is for.
 
Speaking of Mushy, has anybody tried the Pivot set with Rain Dance > Status? I used it on a rain team a few days ago, and it's Natural Bulk which noobcubed just exemplified alongside a slow Baton Pass really just made the process of getting rain up and bringing frail sweepers in quite easy. While this is counterproductive to Moonlight, you can always moonlight while outside of rain, and Pain Split is always a mediocre but existant option.
What was cool about the set in itself, was how slow the baton pass really was. Being able to absorb a hit, and follow it up by bringing strong, quick sweepers is bound for success!

The Set:


Musharna @ Leftovers / Damp Rock
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Def / 248 HP / 8 SDef
Bold Nature
- Psychic
- Moonlight / Pain Split
- Rain Dance
- Baton Pass
 
Last edited:

Blast

Member of the Alien Nation
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Speaking of Mushy, has anybody tried the Pivot set with Rain Dance > Status? I used it on a rain team a few days ago, and it's Natural Bulk which noobcubed just exemplified alongside a slow Baton Pass really just made the process of getting rain up and bringing frail sweepers in quite easy. While this is counterproductive to Moonlight, you can always moonlight while outside of rain, and Pain Split is always a mediocre but existant option.
What was cool about the set in itself, was how slow the baton pass really was. Being able to absorb a hit, and follow it up by bringing strong, quick sweepers is bound for success!

The Set:


Musharna @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Def / 248 HP / 8 SDef
Bold Nature
- Psychic
- Moonlight / Pain Split
- Rain Dance
- Baton Pass
I'm not a really huge fan of that set because as you said it interferes with Moonlight which greatly hinders Mushy's performance. You say it can just Moonlight outside of rain but that's a lot easier said than done as I assume you're using it to pivot into attacks throughout the match, which includes both in and outside the rain. If I wanted a slow pivot that can set up rain I'd rather just use Volbeat which has Prankster and a pretty slow U-turn with minimum investment, not to mention Prankser Encore which is absolutely huge. It's not as slow or bulky as Mushy though I still feel it's more reliable because it isn't as exploitable under the rain and a well-timed Encore allows to set up without even having to take a hit.
 
Speaking of Mushy, has anybody tried the Pivot set with Rain Dance > Status? I used it on a rain team a few days ago, and it's Natural Bulk which noobcubed just exemplified alongside a slow Baton Pass really just made the process of getting rain up and bringing frail sweepers in quite easy. While this is counterproductive to Moonlight, you can always moonlight while outside of rain, and Pain Split is always a mediocre but existant option.
What was cool about the set in itself, was how slow the baton pass really was. Being able to absorb a hit, and follow it up by bringing strong, quick sweepers is bound for success!

The Set:


Musharna @ Leftovers / Damp Rock
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Def / 248 HP / 8 SDef
Bold Nature
- Psychic
- Moonlight / Pain Split
- Rain Dance
- Baton Pass

Honestly, I didn't even know until now that Musharna even got Pain Split..lol xD Honestly, I'd never run Pain Split on Musharna, because Pain Split is a better option for mons like Misdreavus, who actually don't have reliable recovery. Now I normally don't run Baton Pass on my Musharna, I'm normally running heal bell instead, because most of the time I want a wall that can also heal bell too, I've paired her with Lickylicky and in that case I won't run it, but most of the time I do run Heal Bell. Lickylicky works good along side Musharna from my experience, as Musharna takes all those physical hits that Lickylicky could not take, like CC's from a Choice Banded Sawk. Hm, I wouldn't run Damp Rock on Musharna, mainly because you lose out on the extra recovery from leftovers. Same with using Musharna as a weather setter. From my experience, I'd rather use Liepard to set up rain, because Liepard gets prankster, and can be annoying at the same time. I'd also use Volbeat as Volbeat can Tail Glow to +3 beyond a sub, and then can baton pass into the appropriate counter or check, depending on which mon is out.

However, like all Musharna sets, this pretty much loses to Taunt, meaning you have to watch out for taunt users. With Pain Split(which you should never use), the problem is you are easily worn down and Toxic pretty much spells your doom, or any status besides Paralysis. I don't personally like this set that much, but I'd try to use it maybe on a future rain team. Musharna is a pretty good sweeper if all the dark and ghost types are gone, as that means she can play . If she sets up enough, don't think you are going to get out of it,unless you have Skuntank who easily counters Musharna.

Also, Musharna is really cute imo, just sayin~ :3
Have Shiny one in X >:)
 
Okay folks, I took a break from Smogon for about 7 weeks. (And haven't been on much since X/Y came out...)

Any of the rules change much since then, or is battling in NU roughly the same as it was before?
 
Okay folks, I took a break from Smogon for about 7 weeks. (And haven't been on much since X/Y came out...)

Any of the rules change much since then, or is battling in NU roughly the same as it was before?
Nope, other than I made a team with Roselia for the first time :3
MOre changes in current LC..lol
 
Speaking of NU, what is people's opinion on using NFE's like Gurdurr or Electabuzz, Haunter,etc ?
I'd say that NFE's can be quite effective, but not all of them, aka Pikachu,who is complete shit imo, but then there are some like Haunter, which although frail, can do heavy damage to anything that doesn't resist it. Haunter has a good speed stat too, because he can outspeed a lot of things due to his base 95(i think ?) speed stat, which is one of the set speed tiers you want to be at, because the overwhelming Jynx sits at that speed tier, only really being speed tied with Jolly Primeape. Haunter also gets giga drain, subsitute, disable,and Hypnosis and more, some being very good moves, others not. Now, I've used Haunter a bit, and I'd say his biggest problem is pretty much his defenses. He's so frail that taking a neutral hit is pretty much the bane of his existence. So, he has to watch out for pokemon like Sawk, who carry the all common Mold Breaker ability, but there's also the rare Sturdy Sawk, which you do not see very much, due to Sawk's better success with Mold Breaker. Still, sturdy Sawk Ice Punch would do a lot to Haunter.

Now there are some NFE's that are just plain bad, unlike Haunter,Electabuzz,Gurdurr,Duosion,etc. Those would be mons like Pikachu or Yanma. Yanma is bad mainly because of it's 4x SR weakness and it's inability to do much damage because of that. Also, it doesn't have the best defenses if I'm correct, taking nearly a hefty hit from everything. It does get compoundeyes which is interesting, mainly because you can have a very accurate Hypnosis to be putting things to sleep. Yanma does have speed boost though, and does get some interesting moves, but the common SR doesn't help it very much, and to also add, Spinners in NU aren't that good either. Pikachu we all know is crap because it's so frail and has to run light ball, so I won't go into that.

So again, what is your status on using NFE's and are there any ones that are bad that you see a lot on the ladder ?
 
Speaking of NU, what is people's opinion on using NFE's like Gurdurr or Electabuzz, Haunter,etc ?
I'd say that NFE's can be quite effective, but not all of them, aka Pikachu,who is complete shit imo, but then there are some like Haunter, which although frail, can do heavy damage to anything that doesn't resist it. Haunter has a good speed stat too, because he can outspeed a lot of things due to his base 95(i think ?) speed stat, which is one of the set speed tiers you want to be at, because the overwhelming Jynx sits at that speed tier, only really being speed tied with Jolly Primeape. Haunter also gets giga drain, subsitute, disable,and Hypnosis and more, some being very good moves, others not. Now, I've used Haunter a bit, and I'd say his biggest problem is pretty much his defenses. He's so frail that taking a neutral hit is pretty much the bane of his existence. So, he has to watch out for pokemon like Sawk, who carry the all common Mold Breaker ability, but there's also the rare Sturdy Sawk, which you do not see very much, due to Sawk's better success with Mold Breaker. Still, sturdy Sawk Ice Punch would do a lot to Haunter.

Now there are some NFE's that are just plain bad, unlike Haunter,Electabuzz,Gurdurr,Duosion,etc. Those would be mons like Pikachu or Yanma. Yanma is bad mainly because of it's 4x SR weakness and it's inability to do much damage because of that. Also, it doesn't have the best defenses if I'm correct, taking nearly a hefty hit from everything. It does get compoundeyes which is interesting, mainly because you can have a very accurate Hypnosis to be putting things to sleep. Yanma does have speed boost though, and does get some interesting moves, but the common SR doesn't help it very much, and to also add, Spinners in NU aren't that good either. Pikachu we all know is crap because it's so frail and has to run light ball, so I won't go into that.

So again, what is your status on using NFE's and are there any ones that are bad that you see a lot on the ladder ?
There are such a wide range of NFE's that are useable, you cannot classify them all as good or bad. However, I will point out 5 that I believe shine above the others!


Gurdurr: Easily one of the best fighting types. It's bulky pivot as well as bulk up sets make it an effective bulky attacker, allowing it to beat a large majority of the metagame. It's great abilities in Iron Fist and Guts are also extremely useful, as unlike most other Fighting types, it isn't completely crippled by status, and can actually benefit from it at times.


Roselia: Easily one of the best spikes users in the tier. Her awe-inspiring special bulk makes her one of the best counters to special water type sweepers including Ludicolo and Simipour. She also has access to Natural Cure, which makes her one of the best pivots in the meta, being able to switch in and out of status, while curing herself in the process. An outstanding mon in the metagame, supporting it's team, as well as being no offensive slouch between to relatively strong STABs!


Misdreavus: Such a good stall check can be found in Misdreavus. With a fast taunt, will-o-wisp, and other great support options, Misdreavus is a very unique threat. With the ability to cripple physical attackers, as well as make stall useless, she can single-handedly break down entire teams. Missy can also hit extremely hard, especially with it's Nasty Plot Set, breaking large wholes to support other team members to sweep through. Overall, Misdreavus is one of the best Spinblockers in the meta, and acts as a great Utility / Cleric / Wallbreaker mon.


Haunter: Glass Cannon is the definition of Haunter. It's so frail that a mach punch it is immune to will do 90%. That being said, it is very strong, with a respectable 95 speed. With it, it can equip itself as a very strong all-out-attacker, annoyer, or most effectively, a revenge killer. With a hard hitting shadow ball as a STAB, and when equipped with Trick, Destiny Bond, and other ways to break down a team, it is no wonder its one of the most used ghosts.


Metang: Simply amazing. Metang is one of the best options for a stealth rockers in the state of the metagame right now. While it may not get great lead matchups, it's most important niche comes in beating the Psychics of the metagame. Musharna, Jynx, and other monstrous threats, can be somewhat handled, or at least severely worn down by metang, who can toxic them and continue to boost with Meteor Mash. While it doesn't come first to ones mind over Golem or Golurk, Metang is equally as good especially if your team lacks a check to blisteringly strong psychics!
 
There are such a wide range of NFE's that are useable, you cannot classify them all as good or bad. However, I will point out 5 that I believe shine above the others!


Gurdurr: Easily one of the best fighting types. It's bulky pivot as well as bulk up sets make it an effective bulky attacker, allowing it to beat a large majority of the metagame. It's great abilities in Iron Fist and Guts are also extremely useful, as unlike most other Fighting types, it isn't completely crippled by status, and can actually benefit from it at times.


Roselia: Easily one of the best spikes users in the tier. Her awe-inspiring special bulk makes her one of the best counters to special water type sweepers including Ludicolo and Simipour. She also has access to Natural Cure, which makes her one of the best pivots in the meta, being able to switch in and out of status, while curing herself in the process. An outstanding mon in the metagame, supporting it's team, as well as being no offensive slouch between to relatively strong STABs!


Misdreavus: Such a good stall check can be found in Misdreavus. With a fast taunt, will-o-wisp, and other great support options, Misdreavus is a very unique threat. With the ability to cripple physical attackers, as well as make stall useless, she can single-handedly break down entire teams. Missy can also hit extremely hard, especially with it's Nasty Plot Set, breaking large wholes to support other team members to sweep through. Overall, Misdreavus is one of the best Spinblockers in the meta, and acts as a great Utility / Cleric / Wallbreaker mon.


Haunter: Glass Cannon is the definition of Haunter. It's so frail that a mach punch it is immune to will do 90%. That being said, it is very strong, with a respectable 95 speed. With it, it can equip itself as a very strong all-out-attacker, annoyer, or most effectively, a revenge killer. With a hard hitting shadow ball as a STAB, and when equipped with Trick, Destiny Bond, and other ways to break down a team, it is no wonder its one of the most used ghosts.


Metang: Simply amazing. Metang is one of the best options for a stealth rockers in the state of the metagame right now. While it may not get great lead matchups, it's most important niche comes in beating the Psychics of the metagame. Musharna, Jynx, and other monstrous threats, can be somewhat handled, or at least severely worn down by metang, who can toxic them and continue to boost with Meteor Mash. While it doesn't come first to ones mind over Golem or Golurk, Metang is equally as good especially if your team lacks a check to blisteringly strong psychics!

Aww,I know, I was just pointing out a couple bad ones xD

Gotta say I love all these NFE's, they're all really good.
 
I feel like Piloswine and Tangela should be added to Brawlfest's list, in terms of NFEs that are really good in NU.

Also decent/usable are: Electabuzz, Wartortle, Fraxure, Kadabra, Golbat, Combusken, Dragonair, Klang, Vigoroth, Munchlax, Duosion.

Somewhat gimmicky NU NFEs: Murkrow, Riolu, Natu, Scraggy, Gothorita, Dwebble, Pineco, Onix
 
Last edited:
Has anybody looked into Porygon? Recently I've been using it pretty hardcore on the ladder with great results. With a modest or quiet nature and maximum special attack, it really can dent just about anything in the metagame atm. It can also act as a threat control with it's above average mixed bulk and makes for a really great pivot especially on Bulky Offensive / Balance teams, and surprisingly packs quite a hard punch with Analytic / Download boosted moves. Now, by no means is it a top tier threat, but it definitely deserves some mention, especially with it's viability in the current metagame, where offense is so common. By taking advantage of sheer bulk and low speed, porygon easily tears apart most offensive teams. Imo a really interesting pokemon I've been using lately that people should try out, and is simply put the best Special attacking normal type in the tier.
 
Saying Porygon is the best specially attacking Normal-type in the tier is even more of an insult than saying Wartortle is the best rapid spinner in the tier.

(And even then, it has competition from Togetic who can Boost with Nasty Plot, and can use Tri Attack with Serene Grace.)
 
Saying Porygon is the best specially attacking Normal-type in the tier is even more of an insult than saying Wartortle is the best rapid spinner in the tier.

(And even then, it has competition from Togetic who can Boost with Nasty Plot, and can use Tri Attack with Serene Grace.)
Togetic is gay af imo porygon is new meta. Exploud maybe but itsux too.

Wartortle is the best rapid spinner in the tier. Not the best hazard preventer (Sawk nigga), but if we are talking about rapid spin, its wartortle or torkoal.
 
Togetic is gay af imo porygon is new meta. Exploud maybe but itsux too.

Wartortle is the best rapid spinner in the tier. Not the best hazard preventer (Sawk nigga), but if we are talking about rapid spin, its wartortle or torkoal.
My point was that, while Wartortle is the best rapid spinner in the tier, it still isn't that great a Pokemon, and similarly while Porygon is strictly the best Normal-type special attacker in he tier, it is still pretty woeful. If you're looking for a Normal-type bulky attacker (and for some reason you don't want to use SubBU Braviary), Lickilicky can pull off the role pretty well, and he has a good surprise value, which Porygon would lack. Vigoroth can also pull off a Bulk Up set, but again seems mostly outclassed by Braviary.
 
Anyone care to chat about which Pokemon are going to go rise/fall in usage/viability? I guess I'll start.

Winners:

Torterra. I love this thing but, my goodness, you had to work hard to make it work. A big part of this was that, for all its bulk, its low speed and exploitable defensive typing meant there were too many Pokemon who could kill it without sustaining any damage at all, and Spikes didn't do it any good either. Two of its worst fears have now gone (especially since, as Zeb pointed out, they can make any Pokemon weak to them a liability), so hopefully it should be rising from PU (where, I understand, it tears shit to pieces).

Haunter. So frail that it is immediately sent running by anything faster, like Scolipede, and it hated risking speed ties with Jynx. Also, as a non-grounded Poison-type in a metagame where grounded Posion-types were often non-negotiable, you often ended up having to stack up Psychic-type weaknesses (read: Jynx weaknesses).

Tangela. This sank without a trace pretty much. Wrecked by both of the banned mons, particularly if they ran Substitute to avoid Sleep Powder.

Loser:

Skuntank. Let's be honest: this thing's niche was mainly Pursuit trapping + absorbing Toxic Spikes. That's become a lot less useful now.
 

scorpdestroyer

it's a skorupi egg
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I disagree, Skuntank is still hands down the best Pursuit trapper in NU. Unlike Liepard it is powerful enough to shave off 50% from Pursuit trapping Musharna without having to run Dread Plate to hit hard enough meaning it can beat Missy and Mushy with Lum, unlike Sneasel it isn't weak to SR, and unlike both it is bulky and its Poison typing saves it from Focus Blast (Gardevoir), Toxic (Musharna) and Signal Beam (Musharna and Gardevoir), and allows it to switch into stall teams with little risk. It was amazing pre-Jynx and Jynx dropping arguably made Skunk worse because it lost to the most common Psychic-type in the tier. Pre-Jynx Skuntank was an amazing Pokemon of the famous Dark/Psychic/Fighting cores that were basically everywhere in the tier, and these cores were so good because they could easily eliminate opposing Dark, Psychic or Fighting Pokemon and was a very effective bulky core that worked both offensively and defensively. I don't know why you think Skuntank will get worse because it's definitely gonna get tons better when people revert to Psychic spam which Skuntank can beat unlike what it can't do to Jynx.

There are many other Pokemon that are going to get better, but especially so for Sawsbuck and Gardevoir. The former faces much less competition from Tauros and Serperior because of the fall of the 95 and above speed tiers, and its two worst enemies are gone. Gardevoir was great pre-Jynx and it'll likely get better again. Of course, there are tons of other stuff that'll get better, but I'm too lazy to name them all.

As for the losers, the biggest one is definitely Metang, because its main niche of countering Jynx is gone. It can still be used as a complete stop to birds and Psychic-types but it won't be used that much anymore simply because Probopass and Regirock are more effective of bird + psychic checks and checking Zard at the same time, while Skunk can be used to defeat Psychic-types
 
Personally, I think without Jynx in particular in the tier fast frail Pokemon in general will go up in usage, as they don't have to fear the choice scarf set which, whenever I played against forced me to switch, even if it proved that they were bluffing the scarf set. This change allows for more frail attackers, especially scarfed attackers under 95 speed to be more usable without worrying about Jynx's hard hitting stab combination, giving more diversity to some sets we haven't seen in a long time (Scarf Braviary anyone?).
 
Personally, I think without Jynx in particular in the tier fast frail Pokemon in general will go up in usage, as they don't have to fear the choice scarf set which, whenever I played against forced me to switch, even if it proved that they were bluffing the scarf set. This change allows for more frail attackers, especially scarfed attackers under 95 speed to be more usable without worrying about Jynx's hard hitting stab combination, giving more diversity to some sets we haven't seen in a long time (Scarf Braviary anyone?).
Fast, frail Pokemon are going to be revenge-killed/forced out by ANY Choice Scarf user: that's what Choice Scarf users are for. You even mention Scarf Braviary. What "fast, frail Pokemon" is going to enjoy taking STAB Brave Bird off 123 Attack? Not many, surely... But yes, I am looking forward to there being a lot more viable Scarfers in the tier.

In other news, dragons in general and Fraxure in particular are looking a lot better. On top of the obvious fact that they no longer have to put up with Jynx ending their sweeps all the time, they appreciate the fact that Metang is sliding back into relative obscurity.
 
Fast, frail Pokemon are going to be revenge-killed/forced out by ANY Choice Scarf user: that's what Choice Scarf users are for. You even mention Scarf Braviary. What "fast, frail Pokemon" is going to enjoy taking STAB Brave Bird off 123 Attack? Not many, surely... But yes, I am looking forward to there being a lot more viable Scarfers in the tier.
Yeah sorry, this is generally what I meant, that there was going to be more scarfers, I got off track. And also one less 95 speed tier pokemon and a 112 speed pokemon gives those fast frail pokemon under 95 speed more of a chance.
 
Okay, so with Jynx leaving, Charizard is in my opinion the most dangerous scarfer in the meta. With Jynx gone, fast scarfers such as Electabuzz and Tauros lost a lot of popularity and ScarfZard has a free reign in cleaning up teams.
 
If Scarfzard becomes really dominant, then Scarf Electabuzz and Tauros are going nowhere. They will just be used to check Charizard not Jynx.

I was never really sold on Scarfzard anyway to be honest. I don't get why it's so highly rated when there are other Scarfers with similar power and speed that aren't crushed by Stealth Rock (like Primeape and Simipour, for example). It's also fairly easily revenge-killed by anything with Sucker Punch or Aqua jet (after rocks). Sure it's good late-game, but so are other Scarfers which can offer more in the mid-game too, because of their ability to come in multiple times throughout the match.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top