Haven,t played NU in many months, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. During the suspect I have seen like 6 Goodras, 5 of them used by the same dude. None of the Goodras gave me the slightest problem (arguably my team was well prepared for it), so I am voting DO NOT BAN. Would rather look at Machamp and Grounvally, those are the actual brokens.
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Metagame NP: NU Stage 11 - Gooey [Goodra banned]
- Thread starter Meri Berry
- Start date
- Status
If I get reqs I'm most likely going to vote ban. Goodra is a very strong wallbreaker with coverage for the entire tier. Once goodra is in the opponent is forced to play around it to hopefully get a strong physical attacker in on a resisted/-2 hit. This sorta thing is true for a lot of pokemon that arent really problematic, but goodra has a p solid typing, ability and spd stat which let it get in a lot. Rotoms and salazzle are forced to live in fear knowing that switching in once may awaken the beast to wreak havoc on their allies. Goodras defensive utility eliminates the need for pivoting that other breakers have, because it can simply switch in on pokemon on beats which other breakers cant do as easily. Goodra offers a unique amount of defensive utility as well as coverage that 2hkos/ohkos everything in the tier which makes it a decently fast, bulky, and very powerful breaker.
Although goodra is really epic on the offensive and specially defensive side, it has some problems. Although a lot of neutral hits wont ohko it, its outspeed and threatened by many physical attackers, especially after rocks.
E.g.
252 Atk Silvally-Ground Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Goodra: 237-279 (73.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Passimian Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Goodra: 277-327 (86.2 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
This physdef is made even worse by the common -defense nature run on mixed sets. Calcs shown above use this nature to show max possible damage. Even with this -defense nature goodra probably wont die from full, but this is hardly a point in goodras favor considering he do be taking some bonkers damage if he stays in. Physical attacks are threatening and cant be switched into, but not being able to switch into moves is not surprising for any breaker. Goodras speed is faster than other breakers in the tier, but not like super bananas me when my mom walks into my bedroom during the part of family guy when they say "sex on tv" and I have to mute my computer and act like I wasnt watching anything bad (I can't watch anything with swears or stay up past 10) fast.
Tldr goodras got really awesome defensive utility and its coverage is really good (I wanna stress that, it 2hkos or ohkos everything in the tier depending on the moves it picks, and even if you have the wrong moves for the matchup its not like your opponent knows it's safe to switch diancie in, and if they dont have diancie your moves are going to do damage regardless), it's just kinda bad on the physdef side, but what other breaker is bulky?
Although goodra is really epic on the offensive and specially defensive side, it has some problems. Although a lot of neutral hits wont ohko it, its outspeed and threatened by many physical attackers, especially after rocks.
E.g.
252 Atk Silvally-Ground Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Goodra: 237-279 (73.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Passimian Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Goodra: 277-327 (86.2 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
This physdef is made even worse by the common -defense nature run on mixed sets. Calcs shown above use this nature to show max possible damage. Even with this -defense nature goodra probably wont die from full, but this is hardly a point in goodras favor considering he do be taking some bonkers damage if he stays in. Physical attacks are threatening and cant be switched into, but not being able to switch into moves is not surprising for any breaker. Goodras speed is faster than other breakers in the tier, but not like super bananas me when my mom walks into my bedroom during the part of family guy when they say "sex on tv" and I have to mute my computer and act like I wasnt watching anything bad (I can't watch anything with swears or stay up past 10) fast.
Tldr goodras got really awesome defensive utility and its coverage is really good (I wanna stress that, it 2hkos or ohkos everything in the tier depending on the moves it picks, and even if you have the wrong moves for the matchup its not like your opponent knows it's safe to switch diancie in, and if they dont have diancie your moves are going to do damage regardless), it's just kinda bad on the physdef side, but what other breaker is bulky?
I’ve been on the fence w goodra for most of this. It’s def a mon that’s scarier in the builder than in practice most of the time, but there’s a few things that push goodra over the edge to me: Coverage, synergy, and sp def bulk.
Goodras biggest lacking point as a breaker is w/o a doubt its raw power and as result it relies on hitting super effectively, which everyone here knows and has touched on. And obviously it has super effective coverage on the whole tier that it can’t fit into four slots, but I feel like what’s missing is that that’s often a bit of a moot point as long as you, the goodra user, understands how to use it optimally.
Often w goodra it’s somewhat prediction reliant since due to its lack of overwhelming power it can’t always just click the corresponding supereffective move and secure the kill, but imo that doesn’t really matter when you look at what goodras best at: supporting sweepers and cleaners. It synergizes perfectly with literally every single wincon in the tier and works rly well if used in conjunction w other special breakers to overwhelm typical spdef checks. Thunder pressures vap rly well for silv ground and lazzle, diancie for talonflame and lazzle, steels for fairies and scarf-indeedee, the list goes on. It rly doesn’t matter if the goodra you’ve got can’t do much mixed def sylveon if you’re looking to secure a lazzle sweep— in this example you’re forcing it to wish constantly to keep itself healthy and giving lazzle plenty of opportunities to switch in and mess w the team as well.
This works particularly well when you factor in goodras special bulk since it’s mu vs offense is still decent bc it can act as a lazzle, rotom-now and stoise check, and against BO obviously it’s threatening all of the slower mons w it’s coverage. It also assists with double breaker cores like exploud/specs sylv/indeedee bc goodra still provides insanely valuable defensive utility that most of the others don’t. The only times I see goodra consistently fail at its job is when the user does stuff like going for a greed draco against full health mudsdale, switching it into knock off tsar, or running shitass thunderbolt without any way to force a knock against vap. And yea its not always going to get kills you want, but there’s no better mon at putting a ton of damage on half the opps team and putting the user in a position where it can click sd or nasty plot with something else and finish it off from there. Goodra is never going to be overwhelmingly powerful but when you look at it purely as a core breaker that can synergize perfectly with literally any offensive gameplan you want to put together, combined with its special bulk and speed tier—there’s where goodra becomes a bit too much, in my eyes.
Goodras biggest lacking point as a breaker is w/o a doubt its raw power and as result it relies on hitting super effectively, which everyone here knows and has touched on. And obviously it has super effective coverage on the whole tier that it can’t fit into four slots, but I feel like what’s missing is that that’s often a bit of a moot point as long as you, the goodra user, understands how to use it optimally.
Often w goodra it’s somewhat prediction reliant since due to its lack of overwhelming power it can’t always just click the corresponding supereffective move and secure the kill, but imo that doesn’t really matter when you look at what goodras best at: supporting sweepers and cleaners. It synergizes perfectly with literally every single wincon in the tier and works rly well if used in conjunction w other special breakers to overwhelm typical spdef checks. Thunder pressures vap rly well for silv ground and lazzle, diancie for talonflame and lazzle, steels for fairies and scarf-indeedee, the list goes on. It rly doesn’t matter if the goodra you’ve got can’t do much mixed def sylveon if you’re looking to secure a lazzle sweep— in this example you’re forcing it to wish constantly to keep itself healthy and giving lazzle plenty of opportunities to switch in and mess w the team as well.
This works particularly well when you factor in goodras special bulk since it’s mu vs offense is still decent bc it can act as a lazzle, rotom-now and stoise check, and against BO obviously it’s threatening all of the slower mons w it’s coverage. It also assists with double breaker cores like exploud/specs sylv/indeedee bc goodra still provides insanely valuable defensive utility that most of the others don’t. The only times I see goodra consistently fail at its job is when the user does stuff like going for a greed draco against full health mudsdale, switching it into knock off tsar, or running shitass thunderbolt without any way to force a knock against vap. And yea its not always going to get kills you want, but there’s no better mon at putting a ton of damage on half the opps team and putting the user in a position where it can click sd or nasty plot with something else and finish it off from there. Goodra is never going to be overwhelmingly powerful but when you look at it purely as a core breaker that can synergize perfectly with literally any offensive gameplan you want to put together, combined with its special bulk and speed tier—there’s where goodra becomes a bit too much, in my eyes.
I played well over 100 games on the suspect ladder, only using sample teams. I voted no ban on Goodra.
In a word, Goodra was manageable. It seems like a well-balanced metagame threat. It rewards well-planned teams, thoughtful decision-making in-game, and the tier currently has both offensive and defensive countermeasures to it.
In a word, Goodra was manageable. It seems like a well-balanced metagame threat. It rewards well-planned teams, thoughtful decision-making in-game, and the tier currently has both offensive and defensive countermeasures to it.
My hot take for this suspect test is that Goodra can be adequately addressed through both offensive and defensive means. During my suspect run, I tended to feel more comfortable checking Goodra with defensive means. I primarily used 3-4 teams in the suspect run, and all but 2 of my qualifying run games were played with the ProTox Talonflame by Danny in the Samples thread.
After about 40 games with Togkey’s Machamp team: It kinda struggles with Goodra and can feel clunky vs some teams, but it really just crumbles to Sirfetch’d and I started seeing a lot of those at one point so I just dropped it. Silvally-Ground really wants U-turn to make the Goodra matchup easier to play, same with Machamp and Assault Vest, Indeedee-F feels noticeably worse in this matchup than others just cause Goodra can take a hit and slap it back. Overall I’d say I was winning with this composition, but it was noticeably harder against teams that utilized Goodra. I think that could be said of any strong breaker given this composition, not a knock to Goodra, but Sirfetch’d, Dragalge, and Exploud are just as threatening.
Another 20 or so trading off between Togkey’s set-up spam and Ho3n hyper offense. Both are OK teams but have tough matchups. Togkey’s team is kinda slow and both felt like it was tough to make progress vs builds that were well prepared for Blastoise. Sometimes I felt like I had to trade a threat for Goodra, but I think that’s a fair trade. Overall it felt like more of a hassle to win vs the ladder meta with these teams, and I often had to rely on tricks or misplays to win. It also didn’t help that everyone and their mother knew the sets past a certain point.
The next 40 games I played with Turtledoggo1’s Ninjask team and it was good in every matchup that wasn’t the bot or ho3n hyper offense. I faced those two teams far too often for my liking and after beating my head against the wall for the better part of two hours I gave up on the alt. The Goodra matchup is pretty awful on paper but you often find opportunities to force it to take Stealth Rock, U-turn, etc. into Multi-Attack or Acrobatics range. This would be the classic example of offensive counterplay to Goodra, a strong U-turn with a Fairy- or Steel-type to discourage Draco Meteor, that’s enough a good chunk of the time.
I found a winner with the ProTox talon team. It was very comfy to play vs Goodra because Scrafty, Copperajah, and Vaporeon work insanely well together combatting its coverage. To do any damage to Scrafty Goodra has to click Draco and more often than not I found opponents taking the time (read: turns) to Draco my Scrafty for damage that it needed to rest off (usually after a round of chip from Fire Blast). A Goodra at -2 is a liability, not a threat. Expert Belt Goodra was by far the most common set I faced, but Specs tended to be more punishing (for both players) as you would expect. E-belt Goodra teams that were meant to lure Copper/Vaporeon respectively for threats (which I maintain is a valuable skill in analyzing teams at team preview and can be a healthy element of metagames) needed a little more care to deal with, but generally, I was able to correctly decide when to trade damage on Copperajah for Heavy Slams into Goodra when to bait Dracos with a low HP Scrafty (and when to rest on Fire Blast), when to pivot Scrafty in on Thunder, etc. Despite making all the reads I was only comfortable against Goodra, I still wasn’t damaging it very often in certain games. I decided to be more proactive about this during my ladder run, actively trying to get up Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock early (trading HP on Copperajah and Weezing to do so) to punish the switches Scrafty could force. I also found myself baiting Fire Blasts to pivot into Talonflame (which is 100% a stone-cold bluff), most people switched out fearing U-turn/Brave Bird chip even though the Talon doesn’t have it (although sets that do run it can perform this role). Most of the time Volt Switch and Stealth Rock chips from Rotom were enough to make Goodra manageable, but there were games I felt the need to Trick Rotom’s scarf or Toxic stall with Vaporeon to make progress.
After about 40 games with Togkey’s Machamp team: It kinda struggles with Goodra and can feel clunky vs some teams, but it really just crumbles to Sirfetch’d and I started seeing a lot of those at one point so I just dropped it. Silvally-Ground really wants U-turn to make the Goodra matchup easier to play, same with Machamp and Assault Vest, Indeedee-F feels noticeably worse in this matchup than others just cause Goodra can take a hit and slap it back. Overall I’d say I was winning with this composition, but it was noticeably harder against teams that utilized Goodra. I think that could be said of any strong breaker given this composition, not a knock to Goodra, but Sirfetch’d, Dragalge, and Exploud are just as threatening.
Another 20 or so trading off between Togkey’s set-up spam and Ho3n hyper offense. Both are OK teams but have tough matchups. Togkey’s team is kinda slow and both felt like it was tough to make progress vs builds that were well prepared for Blastoise. Sometimes I felt like I had to trade a threat for Goodra, but I think that’s a fair trade. Overall it felt like more of a hassle to win vs the ladder meta with these teams, and I often had to rely on tricks or misplays to win. It also didn’t help that everyone and their mother knew the sets past a certain point.
The next 40 games I played with Turtledoggo1’s Ninjask team and it was good in every matchup that wasn’t the bot or ho3n hyper offense. I faced those two teams far too often for my liking and after beating my head against the wall for the better part of two hours I gave up on the alt. The Goodra matchup is pretty awful on paper but you often find opportunities to force it to take Stealth Rock, U-turn, etc. into Multi-Attack or Acrobatics range. This would be the classic example of offensive counterplay to Goodra, a strong U-turn with a Fairy- or Steel-type to discourage Draco Meteor, that’s enough a good chunk of the time.
I found a winner with the ProTox talon team. It was very comfy to play vs Goodra because Scrafty, Copperajah, and Vaporeon work insanely well together combatting its coverage. To do any damage to Scrafty Goodra has to click Draco and more often than not I found opponents taking the time (read: turns) to Draco my Scrafty for damage that it needed to rest off (usually after a round of chip from Fire Blast). A Goodra at -2 is a liability, not a threat. Expert Belt Goodra was by far the most common set I faced, but Specs tended to be more punishing (for both players) as you would expect. E-belt Goodra teams that were meant to lure Copper/Vaporeon respectively for threats (which I maintain is a valuable skill in analyzing teams at team preview and can be a healthy element of metagames) needed a little more care to deal with, but generally, I was able to correctly decide when to trade damage on Copperajah for Heavy Slams into Goodra when to bait Dracos with a low HP Scrafty (and when to rest on Fire Blast), when to pivot Scrafty in on Thunder, etc. Despite making all the reads I was only comfortable against Goodra, I still wasn’t damaging it very often in certain games. I decided to be more proactive about this during my ladder run, actively trying to get up Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock early (trading HP on Copperajah and Weezing to do so) to punish the switches Scrafty could force. I also found myself baiting Fire Blasts to pivot into Talonflame (which is 100% a stone-cold bluff), most people switched out fearing U-turn/Brave Bird chip even though the Talon doesn’t have it (although sets that do run it can perform this role). Most of the time Volt Switch and Stealth Rock chips from Rotom were enough to make Goodra manageable, but there were games I felt the need to Trick Rotom’s scarf or Toxic stall with Vaporeon to make progress.
I am too busy to reach reqs, but if I somehow do I will vote ban
I was initially anti-ban, as I thought Goodra isn’t a problem and not that powerful, but when I started using Goodra, I realized how OP it was.
Goodra has amazing coverage. Seriously. Choose 4 out of: Ice beam, Draco Meteor, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Sludge Bomb, Iron Tail, Dragon Pulse and more. Use expert belt and watch goodra destroy the enemy team. Also, most ice and fairy moves are special, and Goodra has a base 150 special defense, so it is really hard to kill super effectively. How about dragon moves? The only viable NU dragon that is not another Goodra is Tyrantrum. With a scarf it is actually decent at killing Goodra.
Edit: Forgot about the abilities. Gooey allows goodra to reduce your opponent’s speed and ruin their plan. Sap sipper makes goodra able to pivot into grass type attacks. Also, by the time you send out your check, goodra would have killed 1 mon in your them.
As Goodra has amazing coverage and hard to counter, I think it should be banned
I was initially anti-ban, as I thought Goodra isn’t a problem and not that powerful, but when I started using Goodra, I realized how OP it was.
Goodra has amazing coverage. Seriously. Choose 4 out of: Ice beam, Draco Meteor, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Sludge Bomb, Iron Tail, Dragon Pulse and more. Use expert belt and watch goodra destroy the enemy team. Also, most ice and fairy moves are special, and Goodra has a base 150 special defense, so it is really hard to kill super effectively. How about dragon moves? The only viable NU dragon that is not another Goodra is Tyrantrum. With a scarf it is actually decent at killing Goodra.
Edit: Forgot about the abilities. Gooey allows goodra to reduce your opponent’s speed and ruin their plan. Sap sipper makes goodra able to pivot into grass type attacks. Also, by the time you send out your check, goodra would have killed 1 mon in your them.
As Goodra has amazing coverage and hard to counter, I think it should be banned
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Silvally-Dragon @ Dragon Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Grass Pledge
- Work Up
Goodra is finally gone and we look for things to take its place. Many would say Drag, Drampa or Guzzlord but I would recommend Silvally-Dragon! The mon provides the similar coverage, speed, and bulk the late Goodra provided at a lesser degree. Grass Pledge/Draco/Flamethrower provides great coverage and hits super effective against most of the common mons in the tier. Work Up allows for draco to become pretty much a nuke and gives a easier time in breaking cores for your partners. Copperajah, Garbodor, or any other viable steel/poison for the fairies you can get some good mileage out of it. You can also tweak the EVs and go modest for more power and speed creep for base 70s.
Random ladder replay where Dragonvally just wins on preview: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1516504254-8rzxbn54ohpsdenb37zd5wvwqsscd44pw
Thoughts on the next suspect worthy mons:
(ground)Silvally-Ground is quite a terror and should be next imo. This provides crazy offensive pressure thanks to coverage. Both of the sets it can run are powerful. The U-turn set allows it to pivot out on its checks and bring in another offensive partner (like a Salazzle) which becomes suffocating to play against. The flame charge set can just win off preview late game once your team has been soften and vally can get SD up which isn't hard to do 95/95/95 is good enough bulk to at least get off SD a game depending on team comps.
I'm currently indifferent to toise. I feel like this mon has a lot more success on the ladder than tour play despite its noticeable wins in snake. It being able to switch in at full and click Shell Smash sometimes is
though.
Personally I find Blastoise to be an unhealthy presence in the metagame, and would like to hear more discussion around this mon. Even pre-Goodra ban it has always just felt like a teambuilding strain that never went away.
On paper there seems to be quite a lot of viable counterplay to Blastoise - which there is. Things such as Yache Grasses, Dragalge, Copperajah, Vaporeon, (Goodra), Heliolisk and so on and so forth. The issue to me is that none of its counterplay is 100% reliable. Between Blastoise's coverage carrying devastating secondary effects, the inaccuracy of many of its checks' moves, possible moveset, high bulk, and more, it can be quite hard to adequately deal with. This means that on any given team you'll need multiple 'checks' to not lose to Blastoise in the builder. Especially when considering its ease of use and 'brainless' potential it can steamroll out of control extremely fast. While on paper it doesn't seem to be that difficult to stack checks to Blastoise, in practice I've found it to be quite challenging. So many teams I've made could have a well-rounded MU against majority of the metagame, but would fall flat against Blastoise.
Even teams that seemingly have strong counterplay to Blastoise are still very susceptible to being swept by it. While that isn't inherently a broken trait about Blastoise, it does speak volumes to me about how it pressures teambuilding and even in battle. Which brings me to my next point about how in battle you have to center your whole game around not losing to Blastoise. Many of its checks such as Yache grass-types, Dragalge, Sylveon, etc... can instantly lose its ability to check Blastoise after just a little bit of chip. Even if you do maintain your check's health, you run a huge risk of getting haxxed all together or failing to KO, which brings me back to my point around how you need multiple checks on a team to deal with Blastoise.
This is looking at Blastoise from one viewpoint, though, and there definitely are many times when Blastoise can do absolutely nothing in a game. Many may even argue that it's actually not that hard to deal with at all in the teambuilder and that it's simply overrated. Overall, I think a future suspect would be a good course of action to take, especially with a mon as controversial as Blastoise.
Thanks for reading!
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Blastoise is the best example of "silent majority" I've seen in awhile; it seems like everyone posting thinks it's somehow more broken than if Deoxys was in NU, but every survey shows that people aren't sold at all on it being problematic. I see no reason to take any action on it anytime soon because despite us consistently surveying the community on it, it continues to poll well below everything else we prompt.
e: like, at this point it'd be extremely unfair in my view to suspect test it just to satiate the desires of a few consistent thread posters here. Please, move on.
e: like, at this point it'd be extremely unfair in my view to suspect test it just to satiate the desires of a few consistent thread posters here. Please, move on.
It already got banned :)
I guess the next controversial mons in the tier are Groundvally and Blastoise huh? Welp, I guess it's time to have this conversation again, but at least this time there will be something new to talk about.
I've said this before and I'll say it again, the usage and power of Blastoise has ebbed and flowed ever since it dropped to NU. What it does is no secret, since besides a few gimmicky Block sets back in the Vaporeon meta, it's only done one thing this gen, and that's Shell Smashing. This gives Blastoise an almost unmatched ability to sweep offensive teams and clean chipped BO/Balance teams. However, the counterplay to Blastoise is both established and evolving. The established pattern of Blastoise usage is as follows; offense sees a rise in popularity for whatever reason, Blastoise checks/counters rise in usage in response and offense tends to get a bit bulkier, Blastoise usage drops back down in usage. The exception to this was a number of metas back now where the tier didnt have a ton of great faster offensive options and as a result, Blastoise was able to pull off Substitute sets to shit on the otherwise fairly safe counters in Toxic Vaporeon/Mantine. Since then, the offensive options have opened up widely and I think it's fair to say that some of the better Blastoise checks and counters will benefit from the Goodra ban. Like we can start with Mowtom becoming a lot better with Goodra gone and continue with Vaporeon having a better case as a Wish passer, to name a few. I think we're just in another period of flux where yes, Blastoise has put up good showings on ladder and in NU Snake, but I think the broader community feels that Blastoise is a fine presence in the tier, which is reflected in repeated survey results. For more details on the shortcomings of Blastoise, see pages and pages of discussion in past metagame threads where this topic has come up repeatedly.
-Ground
Groundvally is a bit complicated to me. In a way, it reminds me a lot of Goodra offensively, where if you click the wrong button, it can easily do nothing, which has happened even in the higher-level tournament scene. However, unlike Goodra, Groundvally has both a boosting move and an incredible STAB in Multi-Attack, as well as a great base 95 Spe that gets the jump on even faster offensive choices like non-Scarf Indeedee-F, Mowtom, and Toxicroak. Additionally, like Goodra, Groundvally has great defensive utility with bulk that can generally take any one non-supereffective hit on either side, not just the special side, and an electric immunity and poison resistance that gives it entry on a number of prominent options in the tier. There's also a bit of flexibility in Groundvally's moveset due to the excellent coverage of QuakeSlide, giving you the option of U-Turn or Flame Charge in the last slot depending on if you want a more all-out sweeper or pivoting ability, both of which can be very valuable. Regardless, both options give you coverage for Grass types. As anyone can attest, a +2 (nearly) full health Groundvally is one of the scariest things in the tier to stare down. One wrong prediction and you lose your ground immunity (bar the goat Weezing) and of your ground immune is already gone, welp, you better start praying to RNGesus. On these premises, I feel that Groundvally is more deserving of a suspect than Blastoise, as really the only reliable check is Weezing, which has its own building constraints, and besides that there's nothing truly safe if you nab the SD. Groundvally is also not all that difficult to facilitate, since it also has a nifty resist to Rocks and pairs excellently both offensively and defensively (something many other breakers can't say, like Exploud) with the many pivoting options in the tier (i.e. providing Xatu/Talonflame with a rock resist and electric immune). It doesn't help that Groundvally can be its own pivot support as previously mentioned. Overall, I think Groundvally has its issues, no doubt about that, and I think it can be a very skill-testing mon both in the builder and in battle, but I think it's infinitely more deserving of a suspect than Blastoise. Frankly, I wouldn't be sad to see it go, but in case you didn't notice from my short essay, I'm still a bit on the fence.
Regardless of how the meta shapes out and what gets banned, we can only hope that it works out to the metas' benefit, and that is shaped by the community weighing in, so I encourage people to give their thoughtful opinions on the controversial aspects of the meta to get as much representation as possible. Happy posting!
I've said this before and I'll say it again, the usage and power of Blastoise has ebbed and flowed ever since it dropped to NU. What it does is no secret, since besides a few gimmicky Block sets back in the Vaporeon meta, it's only done one thing this gen, and that's Shell Smashing. This gives Blastoise an almost unmatched ability to sweep offensive teams and clean chipped BO/Balance teams. However, the counterplay to Blastoise is both established and evolving. The established pattern of Blastoise usage is as follows; offense sees a rise in popularity for whatever reason, Blastoise checks/counters rise in usage in response and offense tends to get a bit bulkier, Blastoise usage drops back down in usage. The exception to this was a number of metas back now where the tier didnt have a ton of great faster offensive options and as a result, Blastoise was able to pull off Substitute sets to shit on the otherwise fairly safe counters in Toxic Vaporeon/Mantine. Since then, the offensive options have opened up widely and I think it's fair to say that some of the better Blastoise checks and counters will benefit from the Goodra ban. Like we can start with Mowtom becoming a lot better with Goodra gone and continue with Vaporeon having a better case as a Wish passer, to name a few. I think we're just in another period of flux where yes, Blastoise has put up good showings on ladder and in NU Snake, but I think the broader community feels that Blastoise is a fine presence in the tier, which is reflected in repeated survey results. For more details on the shortcomings of Blastoise, see pages and pages of discussion in past metagame threads where this topic has come up repeatedly.
-GroundGroundvally is a bit complicated to me. In a way, it reminds me a lot of Goodra offensively, where if you click the wrong button, it can easily do nothing, which has happened even in the higher-level tournament scene. However, unlike Goodra, Groundvally has both a boosting move and an incredible STAB in Multi-Attack, as well as a great base 95 Spe that gets the jump on even faster offensive choices like non-Scarf Indeedee-F, Mowtom, and Toxicroak. Additionally, like Goodra, Groundvally has great defensive utility with bulk that can generally take any one non-supereffective hit on either side, not just the special side, and an electric immunity and poison resistance that gives it entry on a number of prominent options in the tier. There's also a bit of flexibility in Groundvally's moveset due to the excellent coverage of QuakeSlide, giving you the option of U-Turn or Flame Charge in the last slot depending on if you want a more all-out sweeper or pivoting ability, both of which can be very valuable. Regardless, both options give you coverage for Grass types. As anyone can attest, a +2 (nearly) full health Groundvally is one of the scariest things in the tier to stare down. One wrong prediction and you lose your ground immunity (bar the goat Weezing) and of your ground immune is already gone, welp, you better start praying to RNGesus. On these premises, I feel that Groundvally is more deserving of a suspect than Blastoise, as really the only reliable check is Weezing, which has its own building constraints, and besides that there's nothing truly safe if you nab the SD. Groundvally is also not all that difficult to facilitate, since it also has a nifty resist to Rocks and pairs excellently both offensively and defensively (something many other breakers can't say, like Exploud) with the many pivoting options in the tier (i.e. providing Xatu/Talonflame with a rock resist and electric immune). It doesn't help that Groundvally can be its own pivot support as previously mentioned. Overall, I think Groundvally has its issues, no doubt about that, and I think it can be a very skill-testing mon both in the builder and in battle, but I think it's infinitely more deserving of a suspect than Blastoise. Frankly, I wouldn't be sad to see it go, but in case you didn't notice from my short essay, I'm still a bit on the fence.
Regardless of how the meta shapes out and what gets banned, we can only hope that it works out to the metas' benefit, and that is shaped by the community weighing in, so I encourage people to give their thoughtful opinions on the controversial aspects of the meta to get as much representation as possible. Happy posting!
i just realized, and also i thought the minimum was 76 GXE and thats what i had so i cant post here
I appreciate people voicing their opinions on Pokemon they find problematic in the metagame; we had a recent survey touching on both Blastoise and Silvally-Groud, which also gives us data to analyze when making decisions about the future of our metagame.
We are not currently married to any line-of-action, but it seems more likely we act on Silvally-Ground than Blastoise given the greater deal of support for it in the aforementioned survey and its limited pool of counters. I would love to hear what more people think of this. And of course, things can change and the metagame's ability to adapt to either of these Pokemon with Goodra no longer residing in the tier is the most important thing to look at. If there is any tiering action, you will hear from us at the appropriate time.
In a bit of housekeeping news, we are working on finding better ways to integrate the thoughts of councilmen into the suspect process internally so that we can help increase the activity of suspect threads and raise the bar in terms of experience/quality. I believe that our invested playerbase that has a stake in the decisions we make deserves transparency and our best effort to communicate. I think we have taken strides with the survey process and adding more involved councilmen (as well as installing Meri as a tier leader, who is more involved than myself in most facets and doing a great job), but there is still a ways to go (especially from myself) and I look forward to making this progress with you all.
We are not currently married to any line-of-action, but it seems more likely we act on Silvally-Ground than Blastoise given the greater deal of support for it in the aforementioned survey and its limited pool of counters. I would love to hear what more people think of this. And of course, things can change and the metagame's ability to adapt to either of these Pokemon with Goodra no longer residing in the tier is the most important thing to look at. If there is any tiering action, you will hear from us at the appropriate time.
In a bit of housekeeping news, we are working on finding better ways to integrate the thoughts of councilmen into the suspect process internally so that we can help increase the activity of suspect threads and raise the bar in terms of experience/quality. I believe that our invested playerbase that has a stake in the decisions we make deserves transparency and our best effort to communicate. I think we have taken strides with the survey process and adding more involved councilmen (as well as installing Meri as a tier leader, who is more involved than myself in most facets and doing a great job), but there is still a ways to go (especially from myself) and I look forward to making this progress with you all.
hello friends, i'm here to discuss a tad about the current post-goodra ban metagame! :D let's get to it
I believe Escavalier has solidified itself as the best Steel-type Pokémon in NU. Its outstanding bulk, great offense and access to a plethora of utility options simply makes it capable of blanket-checking many of the current metagame's threats. Furthermore, I belive that, with Goodra gone, Escavalier can act as a more effective defensive Steel-type overall. Keep your eyes open for this lil' fellow!
I think Aurorus is an exceptional offensive pick right now. In fact, since Bronzong's departure, this big dino caught my heart by snowstorm. Its 100% accurate Blizzards, powered up by STAB Meteor Beam boosts, are extremely annoying to deal with defensively by teams, especially taking into consideration its access to Earth Power to anihilate Copperajah. Its defensive utility is also surprisingly decent, being able to somewhat repeatedly switch into the likes of Talonflame and Xatu. Please give this little friend a try, I am 100% sure you won't regret it! :D
On the contrary to most claims right now, I don't believe Blastoise to be a particularly concerning threat to the current metagame. It is, yes, a very potent offensive sweeper and it has definitely gotten better with Goodra's ban, but I think the turtle has enough counterplay to make it fine NU just fine.
Silvally-Ground, on the other hand, I can definitely see being a little more problematic. Outstanding bulk, EdgeQuake coverage PLUS access to U-Turn or Flame Charge PLUS Swords Dance just makes it too consistent all-around, in my opinion. Definitely a somewhat restricting threat.
edit: here are a few teams I've been using recently! Thank you xerovis for the spice ;D, just got back to the 1500s on my main!
wigglyDUBS
sub smash bros
hc aero
cataLIZARDor
I LOVE YOU, SEXY LIZARD
Currently, Salazzle stands as the single best Pokémon in the metagame, in my opinion. Its potent dual STAB combination, sheer power, unparalelled speed tier and extreme versatility makes it a potent threat to teams, being able to overcome potential "checks" such as Dragalge and SpDef Diancie with blazing damage output (powered by its access to Nasty Plot) or pesky status conditions thanks to its Corrosion-buffed Toxic. And, with Goodra's departure, the lizard only become more of a menance to the current NU trends, with only the likes of Choice Scarf users and Talonflame acting as (mostly) reliable revenge killers.QUAGSQUIRE
I believe Escavalier has solidified itself as the best Steel-type Pokémon in NU. Its outstanding bulk, great offense and access to a plethora of utility options simply makes it capable of blanket-checking many of the current metagame's threats. Furthermore, I belive that, with Goodra gone, Escavalier can act as a more effective defensive Steel-type overall. Keep your eyes open for this lil' fellow!
C-C-C-C-C-COLD!
I think Aurorus is an exceptional offensive pick right now. In fact, since Bronzong's departure, this big dino caught my heart by snowstorm. Its 100% accurate Blizzards, powered up by STAB Meteor Beam boosts, are extremely annoying to deal with defensively by teams, especially taking into consideration its access to Earth Power to anihilate Copperajah. Its defensive utility is also surprisingly decent, being able to somewhat repeatedly switch into the likes of Talonflame and Xatu. Please give this little friend a try, I am 100% sure you won't regret it! :D
TWEEDLEDEATH AND TWEEDLEDOOM
On the contrary to most claims right now, I don't believe Blastoise to be a particularly concerning threat to the current metagame. It is, yes, a very potent offensive sweeper and it has definitely gotten better with Goodra's ban, but I think the turtle has enough counterplay to make it fine NU just fine.
Silvally-Ground, on the other hand, I can definitely see being a little more problematic. Outstanding bulk, EdgeQuake coverage PLUS access to U-Turn or Flame Charge PLUS Swords Dance just makes it too consistent all-around, in my opinion. Definitely a somewhat restricting threat.
THE OTHER STUFF!
-Dragon 
Y'all get better with goodra gone, huh! -Dragon
edit: here are a few teams I've been using recently! Thank you xerovis for the spice ;D, just got back to the 1500s on my main!
wigglyDUBS
sub smash bros
hc aero
cataLIZARDor
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In light of the new tier drops, thought I'd drop off some conceptual sets that I'm still in the process of refining.
Grimmsnarl @ Black Glasses / Lum Berry
Ability: Prankster / Pickpocket
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Darkest Lariat
- Spirit Break
- Power Whip
- Thunder Wave / Sucker Punch
So we all know what the deal with Dual Screens Grimm is, though with Light Clay being banned its prospects don't look as great. Enter offensive Grimmsnarl; while it sadly doesn't have access to Knock Off or indeed any STAB even exceeding 90 BP, 120 Atk with its unique dual STAB combination can still mess some teams up. It is also faster than other holepunchers like Machamp, Golurk, and Dhelmise which it can OHKO, giving it an additional edge in the 'slow wallbreaker' arms race too. Darkest Lariat is usually Grimmsnarl's most reliable STAB to throw out, especially since it can pierce through Mudsdale's Stamina, though Throat Chop can be cheeky in stuffing Sylveon's Hyper Voice if that suits your fancy. You can use Play Rough over Spirit Break since that cleanly OHKOes Machamp and phys def Guzzlord and is also Grimm's strongest STAB (without Black Glasses), though Spirit Break also OHKOes those after burn and Stealth Rock chip, respectively. Power Whip is actually pretty nice for smacking bulky things like Vaporeon, Diancie, and Mudsdale (sadly still doesn't 2HKO) that would otherwise tank Grimm's STABs with little issue. The last slot is customisable; Prankster TWave is the general offense harassing tool to shut down something like Shell Smash Blastoise or whatever, while Sucker Punch gives Grimm a bit more offensive presence, especially against things like Rotom-Mow, GroundVally, and Starmie, especially when backed by Black Glasses. However, an interesting tech option that caught my eye is actually Lum Berry + Pickpocket. This lets Grimmsnarl brawl with status users like Vaporeon, Mantine, Rotom-Mow, and Talonflame more recklessly, and Pickpocket can disrupt them further by stealing their item afterwards, which is especially nice for tripping up Talonflames. A notable downside is potentially getting screwed by stealing a Vileplume's Black Sludge after it triggered your Lum Berry with Effect Spore, so that's something to worry about. Other options I have considered include Superpower to bait and smack Steels, Bulk Up to further capitalize on the Lum tech, or even just go full Choice Band with Trick. This mon has neat applications and is a very interesting addition to most offensive teams.
Stakataka @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy / Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Gyro Ball
- Body Press / Rock Blast
A very welcome bulky Steel for NU. Staka has the typing and just enough bulk to withstand powerful special attacks from the likes of Sylveon, Indeedee-F, Salazzle, and Dragalge, and can usually shrug off their coverage moves well enough too. Gyro Ball and Body Press both hit hard enough to deter the large majority of offensive checks, though Rock Blast can be considered if Staka is your primary Fire answer. Heck, Stone Edge can be used instead for a better matchup against Rocky Helmet Xatu. There's not really too much that needs to be explained here; defensive Stakataka is likely going to be the best example of a bulky Steel NU currently has atm, especially with how hard it hits offensive mons, so I doubt its position would be threatened for a long time to come .
Stakataka @ Shuca Berry / Chople Berry
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Lonely Nature
IVs: 15 Def / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Gyro Ball
- Stone Edge
- Heat Crash / Earthquake
Let's not forget good ol' Trick Room Stakataka, which can flip a matchup against offense on its head with how quickly it can steamroll out of control, especially with its resist berries giving it Trick Rooming opportunities it otherwise would not have, or to simply thwart counterplay such as Doublade form stopping its sweep, but if those aren't concerns for you, you can just go Life Orb for maximum destruction. Heat Crash is nice in this tier as it squashes Escavalier & Rotom-Mow, has a high chance at 2HKOing Doublade after SR and puts pressure on Vileplume, though Earthquake is available for hitting Heavy Metal Copperajah.
These are just the preliminary sets I am working on atm, hope you guys can expand upon the potential of these solid newcomers.
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Grimmsnarl @ Life Orb
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Darkest Lariat
- Play Rough
- Power Whip
- Superpower / Sucker Punch / Fire Punch / Thunder Punch
I wanted to talk a bit about grimmsnarl because I think its cool :^). Idt either of the two drops will be super broken, but grimm seems like it can be a pretty powerful walbreaker. This set in particular seems like its strongest/most splashable. Grimmsnarl's stabs are both pretty awesome offensive typings, and the combination is unresisted by the metagame although some things do still take it on pretty well. It can deal out some p bonkers damage. Might struggle with getting on the field sometimes though, although it doesnt have terrible bulk.
Here's some explanation for the moves and relevant calcs:
Darkest Lariat is the strongest dark stab
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Darkest Lariat vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Copperajah: 253-300 (59.6 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Darkest Lariat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Copperajah: 253-300 (65.7 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 179-212 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 152-179 (42.9 - 50.5%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 152-179 (42.9 - 50.5%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Darkest Lariat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Copperajah: 253-300 (65.7 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 179-212 (52 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 152-179 (42.9 - 50.5%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 152-179 (42.9 - 50.5%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Play rough is the strongest fairy stab
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Play Rough vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Copperajah: 134-159 (31.6 - 37.5%) -- 19% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Looks like play rough into lariat has a chance to KO)
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Copperajah: 134-159 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Play rough into lariat p much always KOS av copper)
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Copperajah: 134-159 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Play rough into lariat p much always KOS av copper)
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Power whip is 120 base power grass type coverage move
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mudsdale: 255-302 (63.1 - 74.7%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 348-411 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Diancie: 190-226 (62.5 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ground: 367-434 (110.8 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 348-411 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Diancie: 190-226 (62.5 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ground: 367-434 (110.8 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Superpower is a 120 base power fighting type coverage move
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Superpower vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Copperajah: 478-564 (112.7 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 333-393 (63.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 333-393 (63.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sucker punch is stab priority
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Ground: 161-191 (48.6 - 57.7%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO
Fire punch is a weaker fire type coverage move to hit a few more specific threats than superpower
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Fire Punch vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Copperajah: 299-354 (70.5 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (play rough into this should KO a decent amount of the time)
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Copperajah: 299-354 (77.6 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 426-504 (123.8 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 177-211 (50 - 59.6%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 177-211 (50 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Copperajah: 299-354 (77.6 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 426-504 (123.8 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 177-211 (50 - 59.6%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 177-211 (50 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Thunder punch is really there only to hit talonflame
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 52 Def Talonflame: 273-322 (76 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 218-257 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (L damage)
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 218-257 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (L damage)
I mostly posted calcs that show which defensive mons this guy has no problem with, but its not like he's unwallable. It seems like a decent wallbreaker that can deal with common stuff like vaporeon/muds/copper, but theres common things he doesnt take on well too. For example talonflame.
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Darkest Lariat vs. 248 HP / 52 Def Talonflame: 231-274 (64.3 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Although this 2hkos it faces the same problem a lot of other physical wallbreakers do (read sirfetchd). Talonflame is faster and burns. Its also not a good position to be staying in when you take lorb chip and have a burn chance every time you hit.
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mudsdale: 142-169 (35.1 - 41.8%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Mudsdale can also be sort of annoying, but considering darkest lariat ignores defense boosts, this guy can pretty much guarentee chip on mudsdale even if you predict wrong. Predicting wrong in general can beat this guy but pivoting around a wallbreaker isnt unique to this pokemon. Its strong priority also means even if you go into a faster pokemon, you probably are taking damage doing it and if they have sucker it could be bad :(.
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 121-142 (36.2 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Weezing: 129-152 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This calc is kinda variable because weezing often runs less defense or black sludge as item or whatever. Weezing is sorta common rn to own gvally but it checks this (sorta). Weezing is very easy to chip though so i dont really consider it an amazing check.
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Grimmsnarl Darkest Lariat vs. 248 HP / 196+ Def Arcanine: 109-130 (28.4 - 33.9%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
unironically the best check
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Been honestly really enjoying the meta so far, both building and playing wise. There isn't really any point of this post besides just rambling and listing things I've enjoyed using recently/ some meta observations. If there's one thing to take away from this post is that I find everything to be annoying
The Grass
With projected drops in Rhyperior, Stakataka, and Grimmsnarl, I was quite excited to try out Virizion again, especially with how common bulky grasses and Doublade were. While Rhyperior never ended up dropping, I had still ended up creating a bunch of teams utilizing Virizion, and to my surprise it ended up working much better than I expected. It's a great Silvally-Ground check that adds speed to a team, while also having good matchups into common water/flying/steel cores. As for Eldegoss, it was moreso the Eject Button regenerator concept that seemed appealing to me. While it does have its bad matchups against bulky grasses and poisons, I've found it to pull its weight a ton through its utility moves in sleep, spin, and as a cleric. Overall I encourage people to explore these grasses more
While laddering I haven't encountered much of Dhelmise (or golurk regarding the ghosts). Not much else to say beyond that, but it was an interesting observation. I guess it's just less reliance on Dhelmise as hazard control, its unreliability to check the things it needs to, or in general being outclassed. Eggy Alola on the other hand I've been seeing quite a bit on ladder. I haven't used it much so I also do not have much of an opinion on it, but while playing against it there hasn't been anything noteworthy I remember.
The Water
This was more of a mon I spammed a ton prior to shifts so I guess nothing has changed around this, but I thought I would highlight it. First of all, it automatically makes a team look good. I do not know how to describe it but the shape it adds is superb, especially if there is something like a Stakataka paired alongside it. Also, it is very customizable. Not only with its color but also its amazing movepool and utility, being a big nuisance to bulky teams that rely on a wish passer. Specs is also incredibly fun and nobody uses Heliolisk or Guzzlord anymore. This is your sign to use Jellicent.
Speaking of slightly bulky waters, I have grown a large appreciation for utility Starmie. It doesn't have strong matchups against much, but I've found it patches up holes in building as a pivot, spinner, and as an all around anti-stealth rock/silvally Pokemon. Life Orb is still scary as ever but i don't know... it just has not been hitting the same, or if it's just because of the way I have been building recently.
Recently I have been noticing very few Araquanids on ladder, which is a good sign of ladder growth as Araquanid is SUCH a nuisance to deal with. Speaking of annoying water type, Mantine also is very infuriating. It never dies but also always poisons/burns/confuses my mons while also doing absolutely nothing when I use it. I've been seeing more Mantines recently which is quite annoying but I will admit it does patch up a lot of holes in teambuilding.
The Other
Previously, I used to be very dependent on Diancie, using it on basically all my teams as a 'steel' while Bronzong was gone. However, with the increase of Special attackers that can muscle past Diancie (vanilluxe, indeedee) things like Silvally Ground, and the competition from Stakataka as a Rock-type, It feels like it has fell off quite a bit. Not a ton, but enough to where it is quite noticeable while building and playing.
Sad to see their large drops in usage, but it makes sense given the state of the current meta and the harder ways to make progress using them. However, I am not complaining, since both can be quite difficult to take down under correct circumstances. It also means there is less acupressure Drapion, the actual most annoying Pokemon in existence.
The Grass
With projected drops in Rhyperior, Stakataka, and Grimmsnarl, I was quite excited to try out Virizion again, especially with how common bulky grasses and Doublade were. While Rhyperior never ended up dropping, I had still ended up creating a bunch of teams utilizing Virizion, and to my surprise it ended up working much better than I expected. It's a great Silvally-Ground check that adds speed to a team, while also having good matchups into common water/flying/steel cores. As for Eldegoss, it was moreso the Eject Button regenerator concept that seemed appealing to me. While it does have its bad matchups against bulky grasses and poisons, I've found it to pull its weight a ton through its utility moves in sleep, spin, and as a cleric. Overall I encourage people to explore these grasses more
While laddering I haven't encountered much of Dhelmise (or golurk regarding the ghosts). Not much else to say beyond that, but it was an interesting observation. I guess it's just less reliance on Dhelmise as hazard control, its unreliability to check the things it needs to, or in general being outclassed. Eggy Alola on the other hand I've been seeing quite a bit on ladder. I haven't used it much so I also do not have much of an opinion on it, but while playing against it there hasn't been anything noteworthy I remember.
The Water
This was more of a mon I spammed a ton prior to shifts so I guess nothing has changed around this, but I thought I would highlight it. First of all, it automatically makes a team look good. I do not know how to describe it but the shape it adds is superb, especially if there is something like a Stakataka paired alongside it. Also, it is very customizable. Not only with its color but also its amazing movepool and utility, being a big nuisance to bulky teams that rely on a wish passer. Specs is also incredibly fun and nobody uses Heliolisk or Guzzlord anymore. This is your sign to use Jellicent.
Speaking of slightly bulky waters, I have grown a large appreciation for utility Starmie. It doesn't have strong matchups against much, but I've found it patches up holes in building as a pivot, spinner, and as an all around anti-stealth rock/silvally Pokemon. Life Orb is still scary as ever but i don't know... it just has not been hitting the same, or if it's just because of the way I have been building recently.
Recently I have been noticing very few Araquanids on ladder, which is a good sign of ladder growth as Araquanid is SUCH a nuisance to deal with. Speaking of annoying water type, Mantine also is very infuriating. It never dies but also always poisons/burns/confuses my mons while also doing absolutely nothing when I use it. I've been seeing more Mantines recently which is quite annoying but I will admit it does patch up a lot of holes in teambuilding.
The Other
Previously, I used to be very dependent on Diancie, using it on basically all my teams as a 'steel' while Bronzong was gone. However, with the increase of Special attackers that can muscle past Diancie (vanilluxe, indeedee) things like Silvally Ground, and the competition from Stakataka as a Rock-type, It feels like it has fell off quite a bit. Not a ton, but enough to where it is quite noticeable while building and playing.
Sad to see their large drops in usage, but it makes sense given the state of the current meta and the harder ways to make progress using them. However, I am not complaining, since both can be quite difficult to take down under correct circumstances. It also means there is less acupressure Drapion, the actual most annoying Pokemon in existence.
CB Grimmsnarl is mainly concerning to me because out of the Dark resistances, you can safely only bring in a Fairy-type to a Darkest Lariat. Even Sylveon and Diancie don't like switching into a Spirit Break/Play Rough. Superpower and Power Whip are dangerous for its checks in Stakataka and Mudsdale, respectively. Checking Grimmsnarl seems centralized around 2 combined Pokemon like Talonflame + Mudsdale/Sylveon/something that can survive a Lariat. I mainly consider Talonflame a pivot to scout Grimmsnarl's next attack to avoid you from sacking one of your own Pokemon because it takes 74-88 damage from a Darkest Lariat on a defensive set.
Overall, there are a lot of threats to account for in the tier including Grimmsnarl, Silvally-Ground, and Indeedee-F, and when you finally make a build that beats those three Pokemon, you might even be weak to other things such as Salazzle, Tyrantrum, Blastoise, etc. All of these Pokemon have their own respective checks but its hard to build a team that: has Dark+Fairy resist that checks Grimmsnarl, Grass-type that gets U-turned on by Silvally-Ground, Steel-type that switches into Indeedee-F (with Mystical Fire) or a "Dark-type" that loses to Dazzling Gleam, Fire resist that doesn't lose to Salazzle / Fire resist + solid cleric, Head Smash switch-in, Vaporeon (you literally can't run Vaporeon on every team to check Blastoise). I believe I voted: 5 Grimmsnarl / 4 Indeedee-F / 3 Silvally-Ground / 2 Blastoise / 1 Snorlax in terms of 5 being suspect and 1 least likely to suspect.
Not very convinced so far by Stakataka from an offensive perspective. OTR is definitely a scary set that must be respected, but Mudsdale is just fucking everywhere, and the amount of Pokemon that truly give it a free turn to set up AND start firing off attacks is really, really small. Defensively, though I think Stakataka is really solid. We've been wanting a Steel-type that can better handle some of the special wallbreakers in the tier for awhile, and Stakataka not being weak to Fire is super nice for dealing with Indeedee-F and Choice Specs Sylveon. The main gripe I end up having with it is that it's a Steel-type weak to Water, which means you can't really rely on it panic checking foes like Blastoise, Starmie, and Inteleon like you can with Copperajah and even Escavalier to a degree, but I think it differentiates itself quite well.
I've used Choice Band Grimmsnarl a lot so far---here's the team---and I'm reasonably impressed. The raw power is really nice, your STAB attacks complement each other greatly, and its coverage is solid for potential checks like Mudsdale and Stakataka. I think two things have been getting overlooked so far when considering its potential brokenness, though: its bulk and Speed. Grimmsnarl is not Incineroar; it offers incredibly little on the defensive side because its stats just suck, and I think this is a large part as to why Bulk Up sets haven't been too good. You end up needing a ton of investment and multiple boosts to be relatively safe, and even then you're still really slow and vulnerable to faster attackers like Choice Specs Sylveon, certain Diancie, fast Dragalge, Salazzle, etc. I think it's a potent wallbreaker for sure, but the comparisons to Absol make a fair bit of sense in that both are super strong with the coverage needed to mess with most defensive answers but struggle immensely with finding safe wallbreaking opportunities.
I moved all ladder bot posts to Administrative requests. Let's not insult someone's time spent on this site and instead, just focus on the issue with the bot itself (in admin-requests/discord/anywhere but here). This is a metagame discussion thread and this is a PS issue instead of an issue solved by us NU Moderators. Hitmontop rising was unfortunate but let's stay on topic!
Proxy Post for Jirachite + Marty's Response
Proxy Post for Jirachite + Marty's Response
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Offensive Trick Room Stakataka was something that had many players including myself concerned due to its on-paper snowballing nature from Beast Boost and naturally potent coverage. This reminded me of when Snorlax was first introduced to the tier, and its on-paper potential made it seem unhealthy. After playing many games both with and against Stakataka I have found that the combination of its poor defensive typing and the relatively slow speed tier of NU has made OTR Stakataka not insane enough to quickban, although as it receives further development I would of course be open to a suspect test.Stakataka @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Body Press
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Body Press
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock
Defensive Stakataka has been an amazing Pokemon to build with, as NU lacked a great Steel-type SR setter (Copperajah should only be AV) that was also bulky enough to take on powerful breakers like Indeedee-F, Sylveon, and Exploud very comfortably. Having access to Toxic and powerful attacks even with an uninvested Attack stat means Stakataka isn't a sitting duck (or Bear trap ?) like the only other viable bulky Steel-type SR setter Stunfisk-G.
252 SpA Choice Specs Indeedee-F Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Stakataka in Psychic Terrain: 110-129 (33.7 - 39.5%) -- 24.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Stakataka: 85-101 (26 - 30.9%) -- 5.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Stakataka: 52-62 (15.9 - 19%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Stakataka: 85-101 (26 - 30.9%) -- 5.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Stakataka: 52-62 (15.9 - 19%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Silvally-Ground Multi-Attack vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Stakataka: 220-264 (67.4 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Passimian Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Stakataka: 256-304 (78.5 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Mudsdale Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Stakataka: 180-216 (55.2 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Passimian Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Stakataka: 256-304 (78.5 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Mudsdale Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Stakataka: 180-216 (55.2 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Stakataka has filled a roll I commonly would use Escavalier for and struggle to add a Stealth Rock to balance teams featuring typically a Sylveon and a Flying-type, meaning now the only issue is finding a good Electric immunity that won't kill my team's speed tier :D (please can we have Flygon or Nidoqueen or something I hate building balance I hate it)
Basically Staka is amazing role compression and is a great addition to the tier in my eyes
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I've been trying Trick Room lately because of Stakataka's drop, and it's been surprisingly decent. Naturally, ladder is only so effective for testing cheesy offense builds because many of the teams you'll run into aren't the most defensively sound, but I still think that functionally, this team has been good. Plenty of losses because of Glastrier being bad and missing Icicle Crash, but I've been surprisingly impressed with a few aspects of this team that I want to go over:
Offensive Diancie is still really cool. Stakataka's drop certainly hurts it, but there's enough reason to tech between Mystical Fire and Body Press to where I don't think it's as detrimental as one might think at first. As Escavalier has fallen in usage, it's become a lot easier to forgo Fire-type coverage and instead prioritize stronger hits against Stakataka, Copperajah, and Snorlax. Although I'm not running Sitrus Berry Harvest here, Alolan Exeggutor has been cool in general. Sylveon and Mantine matchups aside, bro shreds teams pretty effortlessly because its coverage is nasty, and I really appreciate the extra bulk that running it on this sort of team allows for, as +2 U-turn from Silvally-Ground is much less of an issue. This Pokemon is really bad! It manages to lose a lot and I hate it.Other Pokemon I experimented with were Stakataka (duh) and Uxie. Stakataka I had issues with because Mudsdale teams just make life hell for you, whereas with Uxie, I felt a bit too compromised with my other team slots. I encourage people to give this team a shot; I think it's pretty fun.
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