Metagame NP: NU Stage 11 - Gooey [Goodra banned]

[Meri Berry]

​

Goodra has been on the forefront of discussion when it comes to being suspected, with a 3.64 out of 5 on the community survey when asked if it was problematic for the metagame. The council has also had discussions about Goodra before the survey, and although there's a split on whether Goodra should be banned, the Pokemon has been problematic throughout NeverUsed Snake Draft and it was unanimous that it deserved a suspect.

Why has Bronzong leaving made this Pokemon such a hot subject for debate? It has an edge on speed tier compared to other Dragon-types, and its Draco Meteor is strong, but what makes it problematic is the massive amounts of coverage it has at its disposal. Fire Blast allows Goodra to completely invalidate Escavalier as a check and threaten other Steel-types such as Copperajah and Stunfisk-Galar, Thunderbolt allows it to exploit Water-types that serve as special walls such as Mantine and Vaporeon, and Iron Tail allows it to make Diancie obsolete as a check while also hitting specially-defensive Sylveon for good damage. It also has access to other coverage options such as Hydro Pump, Sludge Bomb, and Superpower if the Goodra user decides to use them. Goodra normally uses Expert Belt sets to abuse its wide coverage, allowing it to do extra damage to most defensive staples in the metagame.

It also has access to Sap Sipper, as well as an enormous base Special Defense stat of 150. This allows it to come in and exploit many Pokemon such as Vileplume, Salazzle, Vaporeon, Xatu, and more. This bulk also makes it a lot harder to revenge kill by many common faster Pokemon such as Rotom-Mow, Heliolisk, Inteleon, and Salazzle, which desentivizes using these Pokemon as speed control.

There are some downsides to Goodra as a breaker, however. For one, Draco Meteor is not very strong from Goodra compared to other breakers we have in the tier, meaning that it ends up relying on its coverage to break more often as Draco Meteor will struggle to OHKO neutral targets. There are also soft checks, with Pokemon such as Toxic Vaporeon and specially defensive Sylveon able to handle Goodra at full health, as well as more solid long-term checks such as Snorlax and Gigalith. A major factor on the anti-ban side, however, comes from the fact Goodra needs to run Modest in order to break defensive cores reliably. This leaves it at a middling speed tier, and along with its mediocre physical bulk, it allows fast physical Pokemon to pressure and revenge kill it with even a little chip.

Other sets, such as Choice Scarf and Choice Specs, have potential - however, Choice Specs struggles a lot due to a choice-locked Goodra being a lot easier to handle by the opposition, and although Choice Scarf is a potent revenge killer, it has the same issues along with struggling with lack of power. Assault Vest sets are solid glue for builds weak to offensive Water-types, but they don't have nearly the same breaking power as Expert Belt, and therefore aren't as much of a threat.

• Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice. **It is now 79 GXE**​

minimum games needed

GXE​	minimum games​
79​	50​
79.2​	49​
79.4​	48​
79.6​	47​
79.8​	46​
80​	45​
80.2​	44​
80.4​	43​
80.6​	42​
80.8​	41​
81​	40​
81.2​	39​
81.4​	38​
81.6​	37​
81.8​	36​
82​	35​
82.2​	34​
82.4​	33​
82.6​	32​
82.8​	31​
83​	30​

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be NULW. For example, I might signup with the ladder account NULW Meri Berry
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.​
• We will be using the regular NU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.​
• The aspects being tested, Goodra, will be allowed on the ladder.​
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.​
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.​
• The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until Friday, February 18th @ 11:59pm (GMT-5), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.​

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Made reqs. Here's the boring HO team I used. Pretty on the fence but leaning ban after the run. In practice, Goodra gets outplayed a lot and even has a few matchups where it has a hard time doing anything due to some walls or physically offensive pressure. Still it's one of many wallbreakers now with BronzGone that can snowball the right teams + the right plays. In that sense, it's broken, but that happens a little too infrequently for Goodra to be outright broken. Instead, it's just one of many wallbreakers that are very tough to deal with, and I think with a Goodra ban teams will open up teams to take on other the other threats. Banning Goodra could be a step in the right direction for fixing the teambuilding / centralization problems with the metagame right now.

 

[Danny]

Made reqs. Here's the boring HO team I used. Pretty on the fence but leaning ban after the run. In practice, Goodra gets outplayed a lot and even has a few matchups where it has a hard time doing anything due to some walls or physically offensive pressure. Still it's one of many wallbreakers now with BronzGone that can snowball the right teams + the right plays. In that sense, it's broken, but that happens a little too infrequently for Goodra to be outright broken. Instead, it's just one of many wallbreakers that are very tough to deal with, and I think with a Goodra ban teams will open up teams to take on other the other threats. Banning Goodra could be a step in the right direction for fixing the teambuilding / centralization problems with the metagame right now.

Made reqs last night asw where do we post

e: poh bullied me into making a real post.

I used like 6 different teams this run, but mostly used my Scrafty+Protox talon team you can find in samples, Scyther+Goodra team we built for Sensei Axew in NUSD semis, and ho3n sand. Goodra is a strange case. After laddering, my once steadfast opinion that it was broken has shifted a bit. It was very potent in the right hands vs the right teams, but almost everyone with a solid grasp on the game seemed able to manage it at least somehow. The tier has solid checks to it in Scrafty, Snorlax, AV Copp(sometimes), SpD Vaporeon, Sylveon. I think it has limiting factors keeping it from being broken,especially the fact that unless it is hitting a pokemon for super effective damage, it generally fails to KO. It’s terrible physdef stops it from taking full advantage of teams, making it hard to switch in and take advantage of the perfect coverage. I’m still on the fence but leaning DNB only because of its performance in the game. I understand the restrictions it puts on team building though, and am open to more arguments explaining why it is broken.

 

[Stories]

​

Goodra, like many other "problematic" Pokémon (Blastoise, Silvally-Ground, Copperajah) are most terrifying in the builder. Goodra may find issues being as broken as it is on paper while on the battlefield, just from good pressure and stacking checks such as Copperajah, Snorlax, Diancie, Sylveon, Vaporeon, or Scrafty. I do think that being "broken" in the builder is just as problematic as being "broken" on the playing field, as teams will be forced to share similar structures just to have the counterplay to something, Even if the counterplay does exist (although limited), forcing very heavy usage of it or else you will just auto-lose is extremely restricting and not healthy (@ Blastoise).

I do think Goodra is not as problematic as Silvally-Ground, and maybe Blastoise, but I will still be voting ban because all 3 aforementioned Pokemon are problematic in my opinion and I would like to see all of them go regardless of the order that it happens in. My opinions may change if Goodra leaves; maybe the other two Pokemon will be easier to check with Goodra gone, but as it stands now I will be banning EVERYTHING because I am EVIL (and they are all super restricting with the departure of Bronzong).

EDIT: After reading other players' insightful posts, I do think Goodra should not be banned, YET (maybe), but rather I would like to see a metagame where the other aforementioned broken Pokemon are managed, to see if that will create a metagame where Goodra is more bearable?

Also here are the teams I used to get reqs:
CB Guzzlord VoltTurn
Machamp Healing Wish Offense
Blastoise Snorlax WinCon Stacking​

 

[Stories]

Alright lets talk about our graceful friend who has fallen from grace.

​

It is a very commonly seen opinion in the VR thread and the personal VR thread that Diancie is significantly worse than it used to be and what it was projected to be heading into a metagame lacking Bronzong. Overall this opinion is held due to Pokemon simply having coverage for Diancie's double-edged typing; Iron Tail Goodra, Iron Head Tauros, Hydro Pump Exploud, and more. Another factor involving Diancie's sharp decline is the influx of Silvally-Ground, another Pokemon heavily benefited from the departure of Bronzong. Despite these facts, Diancie has struggled with super-effective coverage since its been in the tier, so what changed?

My idea is that Diancie's sharp decline is directly correlated to the sharp decline of another Pokemon; Guzzlord. Diancie, more often than not, runs 200 speed EV's for max speed Guzzlord, ensuring it can KO it before getting OHKO'd by Heavy Slam. Guzzlord's decline in usage is a bit more mysterious (I still think its great) but I think it can be largely attributed to the increased usage of faster offensive Dragon-types like Goodra and Duraludon, Superpower Copperajah, and VoltTurn cores featuring Silvally-Ground all in response to Bronzong rising to RU. Regardless of the reason, Guzzlord is simply used far less than it used to be, and even the fast Choice Band sets often run Jolly now just for the 200 speed Diancie. This means that Diancie is effectively wasting 200 EV's (almost half of them) to reach an almost unneeded speed tier, albeit Diancie should always run at least 96 speed EV's for the aforementioned Copperajah. I think once players start using Diancie's with more defensive EV's, they'll find that it's not as easily overwhelmed as a super speedy one might be.

Obviously this is a bit of an oversimplification of the metagame at large but I do think there is a direct correlation between Diancie's lack of recent success and the lack of the Guzzlord that Diancie is sacrificing a majority of its bulk to outspeed.

 

[PepeBowie]

​

I just met the requirements. I have to admit that under the criteria that I always apply to ban or not a Pokémon, Goodra prostrated itself as a real threat. Normally, if there is a Pokémon that I take too much into account when building a team, I tend to consider it broken. Or at least with the potential to be broken. Because what we'll all agree on is that if your team isn't prepared to defend against Goodra, you're likely to go crazy trying to pivot against such a huge movepool.
However, when it comes to grinding, I have realized that things are not so clear cut, and although I am still open to changing my mind - I have not had the chance to play against good players in grinding and I think that in this case is very important - I think I will vote not to ban it.
And what made me change my mind? Well, when it comes to practice, the answers you have on your team for Goodra are also good in the metagame itself. And therefore it is also not entirely true that you play them ONLY for Goodra. Let me explain myself: Vaporeon checks not only Goodra but also other metagame threats (Blastoise, Inteleon...) and this also happens with other defensive options like Sylveon or AV Copperajah.
Also, although I personally believe that Goodra's best set is the one running Expert Belt, a large part of Pokémon that you would carry in many of the defensive cores usually are played with Protect (the two Eevee evolutions mentioned, Quagsire, Ferrossed...) so the Choice Specs set let me down a bit.

Here are the two teams I used during the requirements:
Stall Garbodor
HO Kingler​

 

[Phantomistix]

​

I just met the requirements. I have to admit that under the criteria that I always apply to ban or not a Pokémon, Goodra prostrated itself as a real threat. Normally, if there is a Pokémon that I take too much into account when building a team, I tend to consider it broken. Or at least with the potential to be broken. Because what we'll all agree on is that if your team isn't prepared to defend against Goodra, you're likely to go crazy trying to pivot against such a huge movepool.
However, when it comes to grinding, I have realized that things are not so clear cut, and although I am still open to changing my mind - I have not had the chance to play against good players in grinding and I think that in this case is very important - I think I will vote not to ban it.
And what made me change my mind? Well, when it comes to practice, the answers you have on your team for Goodra are also good in the metagame itself. And therefore it is also not entirely true that you play them ONLY for Goodra. Let me explain myself: Vaporeon checks not only Goodra but also other metagame threats (Blastoise, Inteleon...) and this also happens with other defensive options like Sylveon or AV Copperajah.
Also, although I personally believe that Goodra's best set is the one running Expert Belt, a large part of Pokémon that you would carry in many of the defensive cores usually are played with Protect (the two Eevee evolutions mentioned, Quagsire, Ferrossed...) so the Choice Specs set let me down a bit.

Here are the two teams I used during the requirements:
Stall Garbodor
HO Kingler​

While I have tilted out of getting reqs, I will still take the time to clarify why this mon should not exist in the tier. People need to take into account that Goodra is not playing a 1v6 battle, rather a 6v6 one. You provided three checks, but Vaporeon loses to Goodra 99% of the time provided Thunder's 30% chance para actually works. Copperajah gets 2HKO'd if it gets caught by a fire blast on the switch, and it's only a one time switch in to Draco anyway if you factor rocks, since it can be KO'd by Draco into fire blast if it takes more than 30% chip. Sylveon is the most consistent of these 'checks', and even that has a very good chance to lose to Goodra.

252+ SpA Expert Belt Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Expert Belt Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Expert Belt Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 168-199 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- 44.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Expert Belt Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 168-199 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's a roll to get 2HKO'd by a modest Goodra with rocks when you factor in protect lefties, and insane chip regardless, forcing it to wish and potentially killing it with poison.

The only real consistent switch ins imo are Snorlax and Scrafty (which btw are both susceptible to the IDP set and random coverage Superpower), who can come in, eat any hit comfortably, threaten damage and status back with Body Slam, or force progress with Scrafty's knock off. While specially defensive Vaporeon may handle it better than the standard spread, it is still very susceptible to para, and with chip it also gets 2HKO'd. Quagsire has been mentioned, and it takes an insane amount from Draco, being forced to recover which can be exploited very easily, not to mention some Goodra still run Power Whip.

 

[PepeBowie]

You provided three checks, but Vaporeon loses to Goodra 99% of the time provided Thunder's 30% chance para actually works. Copperajah gets 2HKO'd if it gets caught by a fire blast on the switch, and it's only a one time switch in to Draco anyway if you factor rocks, since it can be KO'd by Draco into fire blast if it takes more than 30% chip. Sylveon is the most consistent of these 'checks', and even that has a very good chance to lose to Goodra.

252+ SpA Expert Belt Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Expert Belt Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Expert Belt Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 168-199 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- 44.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Expert Belt Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 168-199 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

According to Pikalytics and my own estimation only 1/5 of the Goodra's I've played run Thunder (here). This being said Thunder has barely 21% of chances of hitting AND paralyzing the target. I don't see your point at all.
The calculations you have provided are completely out of context and are biased. Have you tried using SpDef invested Pokémon? Maybe that would help you in the grind. Calm Sylveon and Defensive Snorlax are by far the most consistent versions of themselves and that has very little to be with the existence of Goodra in the tier. Let me give you some calculations of scenarios that are most likely to happen:

252+ SpA Expert Belt Goodra Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 40+ SpD Vaporeon: 211-250 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Expert Belt Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 68+ SpD Sylveon: 158-187 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Expert Belt Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 139-166 (35.2 - 42.1%) -- 86.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Expert Belt Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 139-166 (35.2 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Sorry if what I'm about to say is a bit harsh but I don't think what you said is even too serious. What made me vote ban Gengar in the BSDP OU Metagame is the fact that he is so easy to play and even bad players can take advantage of him by spamming moves.
The very few checks that Gengar has are based on strategies designed ONLY to defend against him (you don't run Shadow Ball Blissey for anyone else) however the defensive options that there are to counter Goodra are already really good in the metagame. This is the main point of my previous post, which you have ignored.

On a side note, after grinding I've had the chance to play some big name players (let's be honest - 90% of the players you face in req matches aren't really good) and I've come to the conclusion that Goodra is one of those Pokémon against which the skill is really important and that in my opinion is healthy and fun: if you are better than your opponent, their Goodra will seem harmless. In the same way that if your opponent is better than you, his Goodra will probably sweep your entire team. In other words, if Goodra makes you struggle in your games, play better.

 

[Phantomistix]

Thank you for your advice. I was having a hard time trying to get the requirements playing only 1 Pokémon but now that you have illuminated the path for me I think I will be able to overcome my 82.4% GXE in 35 games. Now it's my turn to try to help you since you are struggling in your grind.



According to Pikalytics and my own estimation only 1/5 of the Goodra's I've played run Thunder (here). This being said Thunder has barely 21% of chances of hitting AND paralyzing the target. I don't see your point at all.
The calculations you have provided are completely out of context and are biased. Have you tried using SpDef invested Pokémon? Maybe that would help you in the grind. Calm Sylveon and Defensive Snorlax are by far the most consistent versions of themselves and that has very little to be with the existence of Goodra in the tier. Let me give you some calculations of scenarios that are most likely to happen:

252+ SpA Expert Belt Goodra Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 40+ SpD Vaporeon: 211-250 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Expert Belt Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 68+ SpD Sylveon: 158-187 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Expert Belt Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 139-166 (35.2 - 42.1%) -- 86.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Expert Belt Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 139-166 (35.2 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Sorry if what I'm about to say is a bit harsh but I don't think what you said is even too serious. What made me vote ban Gengar in the BSDP OU Metagame is the fact that he is so easy to play and even bad players can take advantage of him by spamming moves.
The very few checks that Gengar has are based on strategies designed ONLY to defend against him (you don't run Shadow Ball Blissey for anyone else) however the defensive options that there are to counter Goodra are already really good in the metagame. This is the main point of my previous post, which you have ignored.

On a side note, after grinding I've had the chance to play some big name players (let's be honest - 90% of the players you face in req matches aren't really good) and I've come to the conclusion that Goodra is one of those Pokémon against which the skill is really important and that in my opinion is healthy and fun: if you are better than your opponent, their Goodra will seem harmless. In the same way that if your opponent is better than you, his Goodra will probably sweep your entire team. In other words, if Goodra makes you struggle in your games, play better.

Putting aside the elitist bs throughout the post, I'll try and make my arguments clearer and respond to your arguments.

Everyone in tune with the tier knows that Thunder > Thunderbolt in every single situation (frankly there's only one that matters and that's Vaporeon, no flying types are switching into this mon). 'This being said Thunder has barely 21% of chances of hitting AND paralyzing the target.' Unless it's toxic SDef Vaporeon, Goodra can just keep spamming thunder until it eventually gets through since Vapo can't do anything back and is forced into a wish cycle.

The SDef Sylveon calcs are all valid, but you have to take into account that a lot of Goodra run Iron Tail now, which deletes SDef Sylveon. When one of a mon's few checks has to rely on it not having a move in order to check it, that's a bad sign.

The best counterplay to Goodra is to not let it in in the first place, and to be fair, it does very little against momentum based teams, but the same can be said about almost any breaker, this doesn't mean something like Blacephalon or Alakazam would be balanced in NU simply because you can outplay your opponent and not let it in.

In your first post you mentioned that what tips this mon as not broken is that its answers are good in the current metagame, but when the mon commonly runs moves to beat all of those answers but Snorlax and Scrafty, both of which are B rank pokemon, the mon is clearly unhealthy and should be banned.

 

[Pokeslice]

​

As someone who firmly believes that Goodra is a toxic presence in the tier, I thought I'd jump into the conversation and both add/respond to a few things here even though I have a huge English assignment due tomorrow.

First off, I want to touch on what I think makes Goodra so terrible for the tier. With a SpDef slashline of 90/150, a Dragon-typing, and Sap Sipper, this Pokemon can and will eat multiple hits from almost every Special based Pokemon in the tier. On the offensive side of things, thanks to a 110 SpA stat, a good speed tier that allows the use of a +SpA/Atk nature, and nutty coverage, this Pokemon has the offensive capability to break through just about every Pokemon in the tier. In general, these traits aren't a problem. Special walls like Snorlax aren't problematic, and strong coverage demons such as Exploud are nowhere near this good, but when you combine the two, well things get tricky. I believe the combination of bulk and coverage are what make it so absurd and it's what makes it the deadliest balance breaker in the tier.

Regardless of how well you believe it performs in game, though I personally believe it's basically a brainless coverage clicker who can, will, and has carried me to wins, these traits are most apparent in the builder. Because of the tremendous bulk, it's extremely difficult to break down Goodra. Especially when paired with a cleric of some kind, Goodra can constantly come in on just about every Special defensive Pokemon in the tier, such as Xatu, Vaporeon, and Vileplume, to start breaking, and with pivot support that lets it in for free, this pool of Pokemon it threatens expands to the Steel-types, Diancie, and others thanks to Goodras Gen 1-esque coverage. Because of this, when building with Goodra in mind, teams are forced to do two things in my experience.

1) Create a defensive core that doesn't immediately fold to Goodra, a short list I've found limited to revolving around Sylveon, Toxic Vaporeon+AV Copper (but not Heal Bell/Copper on its own), and Snorlax. Scrafty deserves mention as a more niche pick, too. Please give more defensive answers I'm desperate :)
2) Have the capability to offensively pressure Goodra on the physical side, preferably with a Pokemon that can come in on its coverage at one point like Silvally-Ground on a Thunder.

As you can tell from this list, for more balanced teams, Goodra becomes extremely restrictive in the builder, forcing certain styles and cores so as not to have an instantly negative MU into the Pokemon. This isn't to say that even with those cores you suddenly will always beat Goodra though. It still has tech such as Iron Tail, Superpower, Thunder, or even Dragon Tail (risky, but legit into Lax or Scrafty teams) that can begin to break down those cores and the defensive utility Goodra provides means in 99/100 games it will never be dead weight. For being restrictive alone I believe it should be banned regardless of how well you believe it performs in game against offense, which was something hinted at a bit throughout earlier posts.

it does very little against momentum based teams

On the topic of how Goodra plays into offense, this is another point I want to cover. For one, offensive teams are going to be your best way of dealing with Goodra, allowing you to keep up fast pressure into the Pokemon, but I do want to tweak this statement a bit. It isn't that Goodra does very little into momentum based teams, but imo it simply does less. Outside of an extremely strong physical attack, Goodra can still live a hit or two against just about every offensive Pokemon in the tier on momentum based teams and switch into a bunch more like Mowtom or special breakers such as Exploud. Is it fair to say Goodra is worse into offense? 100000%. But we shouldn't discredit the bulk and coverage in those MU's. It still puts in work from my experience every time.

small rant on previous discussion, feel free to ignore because I don't want it to take away from the thread or the post

Thank you for your advice. I was having a hard time trying to get the requirements playing only 1 Pokémon but now that you have illuminated the path for me I think I will be able to overcome my 82.4% GXE in 35 games. Now it's my turn to try to help you since you are struggling in your grind.

Man, I won't lie, as much as I found this funny, it pissed me off a bit. Phantom provided valid counterpoints to the things you said, and although maybe a bit terse, they wasn't rude in any way, and you really had to respond like this? How good or not good they are shouldn't make a difference if what they say has truth to it, and even if you choose not listen or take it seriously, no need to be an ass back. 82.4% GXE in 35 games means literally nothing except you had more patience and time on your hands, and sometimes it's important we remember that.

The calculations you have provided are completely out of context and are biased. Have you tried using SpDef invested Pokémon? Maybe that would help you in the grind. Calm Sylveon and Defensive Snorlax are by far the most consistent versions of themselves and that has very little to be with the existence of Goodra in the tier. Let me give you some calculations of scenarios that are most likely to happen:

252+ SpA Expert Belt Goodra Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 40+ SpD Vaporeon: 211-250 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Expert Belt Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 68+ SpD Sylveon: 158-187 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Expert Belt Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 139-166 (35.2 - 42.1%) -- 86.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Expert Belt Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 139-166 (35.2 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

My guy, all of these calcs are taken entirely "out of context and are biased". Max SpDef Sylv should never be run imo, neither should Sludge Bomb Goodra. Hell, even 68+ Sylveon should probably never be run because you risk getting 2HKOed after rocks by both Goodra and Adamant Sirfetch'd, among missing some other rolls. Although Phantom is the one who brought up the idea of Sludge Bomb Goodra first into the conversation, tweaking the calcs and then calling him out for cherry picking them only to do the same isn't exactly the greatest look. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[PepeBowie]

I have read my post afterwards and I admit that I have been a bit of an ass. I apologize in the forms I tend to be too vehement in my speech. I don't like it when they talk to me condescendingly but of course in this case it's my bad for being thin-skinned.
There is another point that I would like to clarify and I think it is a decision that hangs in the balance. Perhaps on paper one opts more for the 'ban' but in practice it is a much tighter decision than it seems.
With the departure of Bzong, it seems a bit hasty to get rid of Goodra without having exhausted all options, both purely defensive and those based on countering the dragon with offensive momentum and taking advantage of his weaknesses.

As I believe that I have not been completely respectful, I am going to try to take the conversation to an area where we can find solutions.

From best to worst, here are some options to keep at bay the goofy looking drake. I am not going to give details about the first two since they have already been reflected above as good checks.

This Pokémon is fantastic in the metagame. RestTalk's set is good, but I think Earthquake is needed to break into Doublade or SD Silvally-Steel.

Another very underrated mon that always comes up. You don't have to fall asleep against this guy. It seems to me that accompanied wisely he always does his job and I think that right now he is very annoying in the metagame.


@ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Protect

I don't like it as much as a response to Goodra due to the fact that there aren't that many options that pair well with Gigalith in the metagame. But it certainly has to be taken into account. It's incredible defensive ability to withstand Dmeteor thanks to the storm boost coupled with its natural bulkiness to withstand Iron Tail makes it a much more viable option than Defensive Cryogonal or Regice, both of which are shredded by IT.

0 Atk Expert Belt Goodra Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gigalith: 137-163 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 115-136 (30.7 - 36.3%) -- 58.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


@ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Facade
- Heavy Slam

What I like the most about this set is that it allows you to gain momentum on scalds or sludge bombs -which are more present in the tier than ever- from practically any pokémon and be a real threat. Cc + facade + knock off makes no one want to mess up against Champ.

252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 159-187 (42.5 - 50%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Machamp Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0- Def Goodra: 322-379 (84 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


@ Eviolite
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Toxic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

This is perhaps the most passive option in history and the one that really contradicts my initial argument the most, since it is a check almost only designed to withstand Goodra's hits. But once again it's a very interesting possibility of which I'm not entirely a fan but played correctly it has what it takes to work.

252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 103-123 (26.1 - 31.2%) -- 27.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 154-183 (39 - 46.4%) -- 27% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Stories]

I have read my post afterwards and I admit that I have been a bit of an ass. I apologize in the forms I tend to be too vehement in my speech. I don't like it when they talk to me condescendingly but of course in this case it's my bad for being thin-skinned.
There is another point that I would like to clarify and I think it is a decision that hangs in the balance. Perhaps on paper one opts more for the 'ban' but in practice it is a much tighter decision than it seems.
With the departure of Bzong, it seems a bit hasty to get rid of Goodra without having exhausted all options, both purely defensive and those based on countering the dragon with offensive momentum and taking advantage of his weaknesses.

As I believe that I have not been completely respectful, I am going to try to take the conversation to an area where we can find solutions.

From best to worst, here are some options to keep at bay the goofy looking drake. I am not going to give details about the first two since they have already been reflected above as good checks.

This Pokémon is fantastic in the metagame. RestTalk's set is good, but I think Earthquake is needed to break into Doublade or SD Silvally-Steel.

Another very underrated mon that always comes up. You don't have to fall asleep against this guy. It seems to me that accompanied wisely he always does his job and I think that right now he is very annoying in the metagame.


@ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Protect

I don't like it as much as a response to Goodra due to the fact that there aren't that many options that pair well with Gigalith in the metagame. But it certainly has to be taken into account. It's incredible defensive ability to withstand Dmeteor thanks to the storm boost coupled with its natural bulkiness to withstand Iron Tail makes it a much more viable option than Defensive Cryogonal or Regice, both of which are shredded by IT.

0 Atk Expert Belt Goodra Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gigalith: 137-163 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gigalith in Sand: 115-136 (30.7 - 36.3%) -- 58.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


@ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Facade
- Heavy Slam

What I like the most about this set is that it allows you to gain momentum on scalds or sludge bombs -which are more present in the tier than ever- from practically any pokémon and be a real threat. Cc + facade + knock off makes no one want to mess up against Champ.

252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 159-187 (42.5 - 50%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Machamp Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0- Def Goodra: 322-379 (84 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


@ Eviolite
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Toxic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

This is perhaps the most passive option in history and the one that really contradicts my initial argument the most, since it is a check almost only designed to withstand Goodra's hits. But once again it's a very interesting possibility of which I'm not entirely a fan but played correctly it has what it takes to work.

252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 103-123 (26.1 - 31.2%) -- 27.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 154-183 (39 - 46.4%) -- 27% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I always love to bring up the “Avalugg beats Zygarde therefore Zygarde is not broken” argument whenever people bring up absolute shit mons to justify the existence of a broken one within a tier and seeing a Type:Null on this thread is but a perfect time to do so.

Goodra counterplay definitely does exist but it is also not through defensive methods which is the entire reason its being tested.

 

[Segetarius]

​

As someone who firmly believes that Goodra is a toxic presence in the tier, I thought I'd jump into the conversation and both add/respond to a few things here even though I have a huge English assignment due tomorrow.

First off, I want to touch on what I think makes Goodra so terrible for the tier. With a SpDef slashline of 90/150, a Dragon-typing, and Sap Sipper, this Pokemon can and will eat multiple hits from almost every Special based Pokemon in the tier. On the offensive side of things, thanks to a 110 SpA stat, a good speed tier that allows the use of a +SpA/Atk nature, and nutty coverage, this Pokemon has the offensive capability to break through just about every Pokemon in the tier. In general, these traits aren't a problem. Special walls like Snorlax aren't problematic, and strong coverage demons such as Exploud are nowhere near this good, but when you combine the two, well things get tricky. I believe the combination of bulk and coverage are what make it so absurd and it's what makes it the deadliest balance breaker in the tier.

Regardless of how well you believe it performs in game, though I personally believe it's basically a brainless coverage clicker who can, will, and has carried me to wins, these traits are most apparent in the builder. Because of the tremendous bulk, it's extremely difficult to break down Goodra. Especially when paired with a cleric of some kind, Goodra can constantly come in on just about every Special defensive Pokemon in the tier, such as Xatu, Vaporeon, and Vileplume, to start breaking, and with pivot support that lets it in for free, this pool of Pokemon it threatens expands to the Steel-types, Diancie, and others thanks to Goodras Gen 1-esque coverage. Because of this, when building with Goodra in mind, teams are forced to do two things in my experience.

1) Create a defensive core that doesn't immediately fold to Goodra, a short list I've found limited to revolving around Sylveon, Toxic Vaporeon+AV Copper (but not Heal Bell/Copper on its own), and Snorlax. Scrafty deserves mention as a more niche pick, too. Please give more defensive answers I'm desperate :)
2) Have the capability to offensively pressure Goodra on the physical side, preferably with a Pokemon that can come in on its coverage at one point like Silvally-Ground on a Thunder.

As you can tell from this list, for more balanced teams, Goodra becomes extremely restrictive in the builder, forcing certain styles and cores so as not to have an instantly negative MU into the Pokemon. This isn't to say that even with those cores you suddenly will always beat Goodra though. It still has tech such as Iron Tail, Superpower, Thunder, or even Dragon Tail (risky, but legit into Lax or Scrafty teams) that can begin to break down those cores and the defensive utility Goodra provides means in 99/100 games it will never be dead weight. For being restrictive alone I believe it should be banned regardless of how well you believe it performs in game against offense, which was something hinted at a bit throughout earlier posts.


On the topic of how Goodra plays into offense, this is another point I want to cover. For one, offensive teams are going to be your best way of dealing with Goodra, allowing you to keep up fast pressure into the Pokemon, but I do want to tweak this statement a bit. It isn't that Goodra does very little into momentum based teams, but imo it simply does less. Outside of an extremely strong physical attack, Goodra can still live a hit or two against just about every offensive Pokemon in the tier on momentum based teams and switch into a bunch more like Mowtom or special breakers such as Exploud. Is it fair to say Goodra is worse into offense? 100000%. But we shouldn't discredit the bulk and coverage in those MU's. It still puts in work from my experience every time.

While I doubt I will have the time to actually get reqs bc of irl things, I figure another opinion can't hurt.

Personally, I find the argument of Goodra being broken on the basis that it's got both power and bulk, thus being able to get in easier to make up for its slightly lesser power compared to other breakers, to be just a little misleading. For starters, the number of mons that Goodra can realistically safely switch into isn't as big as people like to think. Sure, you may find the dream situation where you're up against the boring balance structure that's running Scarf Mowtom as their speed control and you get in for free against it as it Volt-Switch's, but even against the bulkier structures, you're not necessarily safe. Goodra's seriously lacking physical bulk is a bit of an Achilles heel here, as you can unironically lose a 1v1 vs Mudsdale if you switch in thinking it's going to set up Rosks and then it EQs you instead. That's not to say that that this on its own is an argument to keep Goodra, I'm simply pointing out that the entry points aren't as clear cut as one might think. Even switching into something like a Vaporeon's Scald isn't completely free, as a burn can be annoying and if its running Toxic, well, you just became a lot easier to deal with, which brings me to my second point.

I mentioned this in the VR thread when the latest discussions concerning Goodra started, but Goodra has a serious susceptibility to passive damage. Even if you get the aforementioned dream scenario, if your opponent has rocks up, that 10ish % just became up to 25%, and that's a huge difference when it comes to Goodra's hit-taking ability on either side of the spectrum. Goodra's lack of a way to viably deal with hazards (which is just a fact of its typing) or status conditions (all of which suck for it, even the least impactful of them in Goodra's case, burns) racks up quickly, and the amount of recourse it has against them are limited. In terms of hazards, I would argue that there isn't really a consistent hazard remover the same way that there are consistent hazard setters in the current meta. Xatu still exists, but it's dropped off a bit for good reason and frankly, the other options aren't great, as most of the Defoggers and Spinners would prefer something else in that moveslot. As for status, while I would argue that a cleric is nigh mandatory on any non-HO build rn, you can't work on the assumption that Goodra can stay free of status when part of its niche is that it's able to switch into the bulky mons of the tier that can all perfectly viably run status moves.

I'd also like to take a moment as a filthy stall player to say that those of you citing mixed Def Vaporeon and Sylveon as testaments to Goodra's dominance have it entirely wrong. Vaporeon has been running 40+ SpDef pretty much ever since that spread's effectiveness was discovered as a way to mitigate the impact Mowtom can have against Vaporeon, as well as making it a much better answer to Blastoise, and it has pretty much been the standard spread ever since. As for mixed Def Sylveon, while I'd agree that max Spdef is a travesty, 68+ SpDef was not created with Goodra in mind. Having a better Goodra mu overall is a nice perk, but that spread was originally created as a way for bulky structures to be able to have a good stop to Blastoise without being forced to run Vaporeon (it allows you to eat two +2 Surfs). Quagsire has started running some SpDef investment for the same reason. It would be accurate to say that mixed Def Sylveon has risen in usage in part due to Goodra, anything more is exaggeration.

Ultimately, I wouldn't lose any sleep if Goodra was banned and if I'm being 100% transparent, I'm on the fence on whether or not it should be banned (although leaning just a bit to DNB). I just found some of these arguments to be off-putting and want to set the record straight while including another argument. If you read all this, thanks for dealing with my tendency to inadvertently write essays. Thanks for reading and happy posting!

 

[PepeBowie]

I always love to bring up the “Avalugg beats Zygarde therefore Zygarde is not broken” argument whenever people bring up absolute shit mons to justify the existence of a broken one within a tier and seeing a Type:Null on this thread is but a perfect time to do so.

Goodra counterplay definitely does exist but it is also not through defensive methods which is the entire reason its being tested.

You have been arguing that Diancie was a good counter to Goodra when he is ONSEHOTED by Iron Tail after Rocks. I don't mind apologizing when I haven't acted respectfully, but I also don't have to put up with being avenged with everything I say. If you and your friend really want Goodra out of the tier just vote yes.
Not the mention the fact that you both have been (again) ignoring my whole point being that Goodra (little but existing) checks are VERY GOOD in the metagame and were VERY GOOD before Goodra was suspected.

While I doubt I will have the time to actually get reqs bc of irl things, I figure another opinion can't hurt.

Personally, I find the argument of Goodra being broken on the basis that it's got both power and bulk, thus being able to get in easier to make up for its slightly lesser power compared to other breakers, to be just a little misleading. For starters, the number of mons that Goodra can realistically safely switch into isn't as big as people like to think. Sure, you may find the dream situation where you're up against the boring balance structure that's running Scarf Mowtom as their speed control and you get in for free against it as it Volt-Switch's, but even against the bulkier structures, you're not necessarily safe. Goodra's seriously lacking physical bulk is a bit of an Achilles heel here, as you can unironically lose a 1v1 vs Mudsdale if you switch in thinking it's going to set up Rosks and then it EQs you instead. That's not to say that that this on its own is an argument to keep Goodra, I'm simply pointing out that the entry points aren't as clear cut as one might think. Even switching into something like a Vaporeon's Scald isn't completely free, as a burn can be annoying and if its running Toxic, well, you just became a lot easier to deal with, which brings me to my second point.

I mentioned this in the VR thread when the latest discussions concerning Goodra started, but Goodra has a serious susceptibility to passive damage. Even if you get the aforementioned dream scenario, if your opponent has rocks up, that 10ish % just became up to 25%, and that's a huge difference when it comes to Goodra's hit-taking ability on either side of the spectrum. Goodra's lack of a way to viably deal with hazards (which is just a fact of its typing) or status conditions (all of which suck for it, even the least impactful of them in Goodra's case, burns) racks up quickly, and the amount of recourse it has against them are limited. In terms of hazards, I would argue that there isn't really a consistent hazard remover the same way that there are consistent hazard setters in the current meta. Xatu still exists, but it's dropped off a bit for good reason and frankly, the other options aren't great, as most of the Defoggers and Spinners would prefer something else in that moveslot. As for status, while I would argue that a cleric is nigh mandatory on any non-HO build rn, you can't work on the assumption that Goodra can stay free of status when part of its niche is that it's able to switch into the bulky mons of the tier that can all perfectly viably run status moves.

I'd also like to take a moment as a filthy stall player to say that those of you citing mixed Def Vaporeon and Sylveon as testaments to Goodra's dominance have it entirely wrong. Vaporeon has been running 40+ SpDef pretty much ever since that spread's effectiveness was discovered as a way to mitigate the impact Mowtom can have against Vaporeon, as well as making it a much better answer to Blastoise, and it has pretty much been the standard spread ever since. As for mixed Def Sylveon, while I'd agree that max Spdef is a travesty, 68+ SpDef was not created with Goodra in mind. Having a better Goodra mu overall is a nice perk, but that spread was originally created as a way for bulky structures to be able to have a good stop to Blastoise without being forced to run Vaporeon (it allows you to eat two +2 Surfs). Quagsire has started running some SpDef investment for the same reason. It would be accurate to say that mixed Def Sylveon has risen in usage in part due to Goodra, anything more is exaggeration.

Ultimately, I wouldn't lose any sleep if Goodra was banned and if I'm being 100% transparent, I'm on the fence on whether or not it should be banned (although leaning just a bit to DNB). I just found some of these arguments to be off-putting and want to set the record straight while including another argument. If you read all this, thanks for dealing with my tendency to inadvertently write essays. Thanks for reading and happy posting!

Thanks god you came up with this. I can agree with you guys when saying that max SpDef Sylveon is not the best (I do believe it is very good if paired with Weezing/Talonflame core in stall teams) but saying that Sylveon and Vaporeon have been played with 0 SpDef investment is absolutely false. I agree with your whole post.
Like I said earlier in the threat, they are both extremely useful in order to stop Blastoise, Inteleon, MowTom, Exploud and others to go crazy. This is no new.

 

[Stories]

You have been arguing that Diancie was a good counter to Goodra

When did I ever say this Regardless Diancie can survive Iron Tail with minimal investment. I’m not intending to flame you btw it’s just a very common trend that something is broken when very bad Pokemon are mentioned just to keep something in check, and no Type:Null is not good, AV Machamp I can verify is nutty though

 

[PepeBowie]

Diancie provides some good type resistances, but most importantly provides Stealth Rock and Heal Bell in one slot. Diancie is an effective check to some breakers such as Exploud or Goodra.

 

[Phantomistix]

Not the mention the fact that you both have been (again) ignoring my whole point being that Goodra (little but existing) checks are VERY GOOD in the metagame and were VERY GOOD before Goodra was suspected.

I did not ignore you, rather provided counter arguments. Vaporeon does not check Goodra, it loses to Goodra. Sylveon has to run a 50/50 on whether the Goodra is running Iron Tail or Sludge bomb, and loses with some chip regardless. Snorlax is above average at best, not 'VERY GOOD'. Scrafty is a MU fish that either goes in and 6-0s or does nothing, and by extension not a good mon. Type:Null is not a real mon, neither is a Machamp that gets outsped by Copperajah.

Edit: Forgot to mention Gigalith which chips your own team down and is currently a C rank mon.

Thanks god you came up with this. I can agree with you guys when saying that max SpDef Sylveon is not the best (I do believe it is very good if paired with Weezing/Talonflame core in stall teams) but saying that Sylveon and Vaporeon have been played with 0 SpDef investment is absolutely false. I agree with your whole post.
Like I said earlier in the threat, they are both extremely useful in order to stop Blastoise, Inteleon, MowTom, Exploud and others to go crazy. This is no new.

No one's ever mentioned non SDef Vapo.

 

[Stories]

homie did his research lmao, a check and a counter are not the same thing. Diancie can in fact easily take any hit from Goodra, except for Iron Tail, which is incredibly easy to pivot around especially given the team that you took this quote from. Likewise, Assault Vest Machamp is all but a check, not a counter, as Draco Meteor still does about half and Goodra can simply switch out and come back in easily later in the game and now Machamp suddenly can’t safely come in. I think it should be very telling that one of the bulkiest Fairy types in the tier being barely even a check to Goodra is a huge red flag. I emplore you to list any consistent Goodra checks or counters (after researching the difference) and come back to me with something that is on the VR and also isn’t dead weight outside of the Goodra matchup.

 

[PepeBowie]

While specially defensive Vaporeon may handle it better than the standard spread, it is still very susceptible to para, and with chip it also gets 2HKO'd. Quagsire has been mentioned, and it takes an insane amount from Draco, being forced to recover which can be exploited very easily, not to mention some Goodra still run Power Whip.

what set are you referring to as standard spread? XD

homie did his research lmao, a check and a counter are not the same thing. Diancie can in fact easily take any hit from Goodra, except for Iron Tail, which is incredibly easy to pivot around especially given the team that you took this quote from. Likewise, Assault Vest Machamp is all but a check, not a counter, as Draco Meteor still does about half and Goodra can simply switch out and come back in easily later in the game and now Machamp suddenly can’t safely come in. I think it should be very telling that one of the bulkiest Fairy types in the tier being barely even a check to Goodra is a huge red flag. I emplore you to list any consistent Goodra checks or counters (after researching the difference) and come back to me with something that is on the VR and also isn’t dead weight outside of the Goodra matchup.

Ok i got you guys. You just come here and say this is good or bad based on VR. I made top 20 months ago (sorry i'm being elitist!!!!!!) on the ladder playing HO Kingler. That guy swept so many teams but i won't be playing him anymore since he is not even listed.

I'm done with this we are going in circles.

 

[Segetarius]

Call me crazy Togkey, but I'm pretty sure there are common, consistent cores that exist that do a great job of mitigating Goodra, like Sylveon/Mudsdale, Dianie/Vaporeon (or Quag if you're a gigachad), I used to use Escavalier/Vaporeon. These are all common cores using good mons that are considered good in the meta and accomplish much more than just checking Goodra. I swear someone says this every time there is a suspect test in NU, but the mon that is up against Goodra does not exist in a vacuum. I guess you could argue that Vaporeon/Sylveon being in all of those cores is restrictive, except that a) those cores do not apply to offense, which will crumble to half the breakers in the tier anyways which is why they use offense pressure and b) like I said, I think its fair to argue that a cleric is mandatory on every non-HO build rn.

Let's keep things civil people, this is supposed to be a discussion, not an argument.

 

[TheKingKarp]

hello everyone, got my reqs and made a video discussing the suspect test so feel free to check that out if you're interested at all. Below I'll detail some of my thoughts as I know not everyone wants to watch a video :D

Basically at this time I'm leaning ban-- although I am very much on the fence. I find that defensive counterplay is too limited in the tier which makes it an unhealthy presence. Do I think there are worse offenders? Yes. (Silvally-Ground/Stoise) However, this is still an issue and as Ho3n mentioned this may be the step in the right direction to help regain balance within the tier.

While I agree with DNB arguments in that Goodra is weak to offensive counter-play, susceptible to passive damage, and there are defensive cores that can keep this in check, I think that the strain this mon places in the builder outweighs the ability to manage it in-game.

Yes there are cores that can handle Goodra; however, these are limited. I acknowledge the arguments that defensive counterplay to Goodra is not in a vacuum and that multiple pokemon can be used to keep Goodra in check. At the same time, it's important to remember that yes, there is no vacuum and when you are forced to run very similar cores that consist of Steel Weak to Fire/Eeveelution/SpDef-Tank they can be taken advantage of by Goodra's other 5 teammates. This highlights what I was talking about earlier when it comes to the restrictions placed in the builder. At this point, there seems to be a large opportunity cost with NOT choosing Goodra on a build as it's able to cover so much and create free turns for other teammates (especially bc of wish passers).

Also I understand there is room for creativity and we should push for new innovations to handle meta threats. However, utilizing mons that are objectively not good to justify Goodra's presence is not a strong argument. It's like people saying that Zig was fine in LC if you just use Sinistea and Golett.

At the end of the day, I don't necessarily care what happens with Goodra and I think we need to suspect other mons as well in the near future. If you disagree, that's fine. I honestly can understand the DNB argument and respect it. And I don't want to be the 22 year old guy that argues with other people about pokemon on the internet LOL

Have a good day :)

 

[Stories]

Call me crazy Togkey, but I'm pretty sure there are common, consistent cores that exist that do a great job of mitigating Goodra, like Sylveon/Mudsdale, Dianie/Vaporeon (or Quag if you're a gigachad), I used to use Escavalier/Vaporeon.

These cores force incredibly similar teams and still struggle vs a competent Goodra user very hard. Warping teams to all look the same (Ground/Steel/Eeveelution) just so you can use anything remotely resembling balance or bulky offense is incredibly restricting and unhealthy for the tier. If you watch TheKingKarp's video, he demonstrates exactly how many balance teams in NUSD end up following the exact same structure just because Goodra completely invalidates balance otherwise.

Ok i got you guys. You just come here and say this is good or bad based on VR. I made top 20 months ago (sorry i'm being elitist!!!!!!) on the ladder playing HO Kingler. That guy swept so many teams but i won't be playing him anymore since he is not even listed.

Unfortunately, ladder is not indicative of any sort of viability, and hardly one of skill. As someone who has top 10'd ladder with an assortment of bullshit including Kingler (very awesome mon btw love that guy) but also literally mono-Eeveelution teams and everything in-between, I can tell you first hand that I know what is viable and what isn't without the use of a VR thread and despite having success on ladder with something, that does not make it viable in a competitive setting. I don't care what your argument is; Type:Null is not viable and if using that is the lengths people must go to have a defensive switch-in to Goodra, that is a clear sign that it is not balanced.

Honestly arguments on this thread from both sides have been very terrible so I will have to play devil's advocate for both sides here.

Pro Ban Argument

Goodra has 0 safe defensive counterplay, plain and simple. There is no Pokemon in the tier that can take 2 hits from Goodra assuming Goodra selects the right move. That is not to say that offensive counterplay doesn't exist, but if something only has offensive counterplay, it is broken. Now there are other Pokemon with limited to no defensive answers; Machamp and Exploud are great examples. Much like Goodra, it is possible to pivot around Machamp and Exploud, however if they simply click the right move, you lose something guaranteed. What separates Goodra from Exploud and Machamp is the defensive utility Goodra possesses. Sure, Exploud has a niche Ghost-immunity (still can't switch in safely to Ghost-types) and Machamp can absorb status pretty well, but Goodra keeps entire Pokemon in check thanks to its typing, ability, and stats, such as Blastoise, Salazzle, Vileplume, and Rotom-Mow. Goodra also outspeeds many other "button clicker" breakers such as Tyrantrum, Exploud, Golurk, etc. which gives it a huge edge in the "VoltTurn + pivot" archetype mirror match.

I don't feel the need to show the same calcs in here just for them to get glazed again over but Goodra can viably use these moves to complement Draco Meteor:
Thunder(bolt)
Fire Blast
Iron Tail
Superpower
Power Whip
Sludge Bomb
Hydro Pump

and any Pokemon with a sense of longevity (even just holding Leftovers) found on balance is 2HKO'd by any combination of these 4 moves, including:
Diancie, Vaporeon and Sylveon of both special or physical defense EV's, Mudsdale, Copperajah, Scrafty, Snorlax, Mantine, Rhydon, Escavalier, etc.

and before people try to say that Superpower isn't good, OnArceus proved otherwise in Snake, and the other people arguing between Thunder and Thunderbolt... why? Regardless you pressure Vaporeon to spam Wish and Protect which is super abusable.

Conclusion for team Ban: Goodra separates itself from other breakers in the tier with its colorful movepool and phenomenal defensive profile that allows it to pivot it more often than even some defensive Pokemon into some metagame staples and threaten a 1 or 2HKO on the entire tier.

Anti Ban Argument

Goodra may be difficult to switch in to, but forcing it to click Draco Meteor (as strong as it may be) makes it infinitely more manageable as it relies very heavily on its coverage for its notorious damage output. On the subject of coverage, while Goodra boasts this potent movepool, it can only use 4 moves, one of which is presumably Draco Meteor. These coverage moves can be pivoted on by each respective resist found on a team, and although this is risky, Goodra can only get these 2HKO's if it gets the move right twice. Goodra also relies very heavily on inaccurate moves which allow balance teams to fish for free Wish turns if the clerics can get in safely. While Goodra may have a monstrous Special Defense, its Physical Defense leaves much to be desired, meaning physical revenge killers (especially ones with momentum-gaining moves like U-Turn) such as Tauros, Passimian, Scyther, and Talonflame can force Goodra out and gain good momentum or damage.

Many Pokemon can take a single hit from Goodra and exchange with a near OHKO back, regardless of how low it may end up at afterwards:
Snorlax, Copperajah, AV Machamp, Mudsdale, Sylveon, Glastrier, and some others. Some of these Pokemon are simply not great outside of the Goodra MU, which may or may not be indicative of Goodra being unhealthy for the tier.

Conclusion for team DNB: Goodra is only broken if it clicks the right move every time, and even has the right move in the first place. Goodra's poor Physical defense will leave it forced out easily in unfavorable MU's and even give the opposing side huge momentum.

 

[shooting star]

​

I have been using the same team since Indeedee-M suspect meta, which in theory is insanely weak to Goodra since 4 mons get bopped by Goodra's coverage, 2 of them sporting quad weaknesses. However, I feel like the Goodra user has to predict correctly so as not to lose momentum (e.g: Fire Blast for Escav, Iron Tail for Diancie, or Thunder for Vap?), thereby giving you some room to get into a position that forces Goodra out. Draco Meteor is also easily abusable, and even some offensive mons lacking defensive investment can afford to take one hit before dealing heavy damage in return. I also feel that Goodra cannot make use of its SpDef bulk to hard in as easily, since common special attackers like Rotom-Mow and Inteleon will more often than not pivot out. Goodra requires intelligent plays to wallbreak effectively, and because I am dumb as fuck I would rather go for faster breakers with just as great coverage like Analytic Starmie and Tauros, or clicker mons like Sirfetch'd, Exploud, and Indeedee-F.

Speaking of which, can we just appreciate how Modest Specs Indeedee-F hits like a truck? It does more damage than Life Orb Male, outspeeds max 72 base Speed mons like Tsareena, and most importantly with Dark-types like Guzzlord and Drapion on the decline, spamming Expanding Force has never been easier, even AV Copperajah is not safe.

 

[Elias PSY]

After 6 months and more of Goodra metagame, this mon is 100% ban worthy.

Instead of repeat what everyone said before i'll just debunk some anti-ban arguments.


"Need predictions"
0 prediction needed,even lo starmie is less braindead as a breaker
.Goodra forces passive structures who are easy to take advantage .For exemple, sylveon is 2hkoed by iron tail/sbomb but can't kill goodra back so he is often forced to wish pass.You clicked draco ?Dw you still win either by switch-in or fishing poison.
Also catch off guard common answers with his infinite coverage
Here's final snake game when goodra take 2 kills in a row, baiting copper with superpower.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-608017





"Just revenge kill it poor physical defense"

252 Atk Silvally-Ground Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Goodra: 211-249 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 265-312 (82.5 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Passimian Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Goodra: 247-292 (76.9 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And that's the strongest (and faster) ones.
No need to mention goodra kill them all back.





Oh and stop using thunderbolt ,ofc its Z tier when running the only set walled by vaporeon....

 

[Lily]

Gonna be annoying for a minute but I don't think Goodra is what needs to be looked at in this tier at all. Honestly nothing really does, but Goodra certainly does not. Here's why.

For full disclosure, I used a team I built myself while getting reqs with no prior meta knowledge. I did not account for Goodra in the builder whatsoever really, and did not find it difficult to handle at all. Here's the team in case anyone wants it, be warned that you will just lose to Curselax if you get the Trick turn wrong though lol

Anyway, as I said my team does not really have much for Goodra. SpDef Vaporeon + Steelvally is all that I can really use to handle it defensively (and Mudsdale kind of!) and you could even say I have a mon that baits it in easily in Mowtom. In fact, given Vanilluxe is slower and my team is heavily specially biased in general, I should've found it a lot harder than I did, at least on paper.

That's exactly the problem, though; Goodra is a huge on-paper threat, but like a lot of mons that have this distinction, it's not really that scary in practice. Here are the main flaws I feel Goodra has, which I got from using it myself and also playing on the ladder.


It's no secret that Goodra relies entirely on its coverage to be a threat. 110 SpA Draco Meteors aren't weak really, but without a boosting item you're not hitting much of anything particularly hard; you do like 60 to Mudsdale for instance which is really pathetic considering you take the same damage back from an uninvested Earthquake, and I ran into multiple mons on the ladder that I couldn't hit SE and thus had a lot of trouble with them (various Silvally forms, most notably Ground can really exploit you but I ran into a banded Normalvally and a few Ghostvallies), some I was even completely walled by (SpDef Arcanine, Snorlax, Scrafty, Gigalith, Palossand). I also had some trouble breaking through cores revolving around stuff like Copperajah/Sylveon/Vaporeon/Diancie/Tflame because despite what prior posts have said, sometimes you really do need to drop that Draco to get anywhere vs something else and at that point you're a complete sitting duck.

Anyway ignoring that I handled it easily enough defensively and was also easily walled, I also struggled really hard into offense matchups because of this. Hyper offense teams can force you to Draco something like a Salazzle or Toxicroak to avoid autolosing to them, but there really is no worse feeling than having a -2 Goodra vs hyper offense; you're just fodder for stuff like Blastoise, Decidueye, and most notably Groundvally. Against regular pivot offense Goodra is essentially useless because it gets vortexed like nothing else, like sure you can come in on the Mow's Volt for essentially free but then you're staring down Ninjask or Passimian or Tauros and you've got a huge problem on your hands. Not to mention how much it struggles to KO these things lol; the post above me lists three calcs of physical mons failing to OHKO Goodra in a revenge killing scenario and says that Goodra kills them all back, but it assumes the Goodra has taken 0% which is just never the case, and it doesn't even safely OHKO any of those mons either.

I wouldn't really say Goodra is prediction reliant to the degree some DNB arguers have stated, altho you definitely do need to predict to some extent; you don't wanna Draco or Tbolt a healthy Copperajah bc at that point you're not KOing it with Fire Blast and you're going to get forced out. However, one thing it really struggles with is huge inconsistency. Let's just take a look at some of the moves Goodra often runs in terms of accuracy:

Fire Blast (85%)
Iron Tail (75%)
Thunder (70%)
Hydro Pump (80%)

Am I suggesting that "Goodra misses attacks and thus is balanced"? No, not at all. The point I'm making instead is that Goodra, for the user, is a risk a very significant amount of the time; it's all well and good that you can 2HKO Vaporeon with Thunder, but you have a 49% chance of actually hitting those two Thunders in the first place, and that's assuming you get the read right in the first place. This is not something you can account for in the builder, of course; you can't just say "well I'll dodge the Fire Blast lol gg" and feel confident about it, but it is a significant opportunity cost when using Goodra that makes it less favourable relative to other breakers such as Specs Sylveon, Copperajah, Starmie, Groundvally, Vanilluxe, Exploud, Tauros and Passimian.

I was told in the NU Discord that Goodra "sucks on ladder but is broken in tours". I hadn't really watched any NU Snake other than my own team's games, so I got curious and decided to take a look at the replays featuring Goodra from the most recent two weeks.

GW vs stresh: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-603281
Goodra does 50 to a Vanilluxe and dies

Meri Berry vs TJ: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-602746
Meri makes a good play with her Goodra and correctly reads TJ's Vaporeon switch, attempting to nail it with a Thunder. She unfortunately misses, and then misses the followup Thunder too; Goodra later forces out a Dragalge and KOs a Sceptile before Meri forfeits.

Corthius vs Arcobaleno: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1492018275-zso8lzrylasac3w5trpsdpghvvpcoumpw
Goodra does 30 to a Snorlax and dies

Corthius vs Elias PSY: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1497045344-nkd3u2xl2ivzxbm25h2wrjd3uxqz112pw
Goodra is sacked without getting a chance to attack

OnArceus vs Davon which happened during the writing of this post lol: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-608017
Goodra has an absolutely phenomenal performance here, KOing four of Davon's Pokemon (albeit with a bit of luck for some of them). It's unquestionably the MVP for OnArceus and here is where we can see some of the ban arguments in practice.

The most notable thing to me here is that the OnArceus vs Davon game is the exception and not the rule. In most of these games, Goodra has been a severe weak link and hasn't significantly contributed to any game. You could say this is down to specifically overprepping for Goodra, but I don't think this argument holds much water; most of these teams just use various Pokemon that are already considered good regardless of Goodra's presence, and they just happen to have the side benefit of checking it pretty well.

Goodra has a good place in this tier as a balance breaker with decent offensive/defensive utility, and I think it would be a shame to see it go. It's not overwhelming; evidence shows it struggles to get much done a lot of the time, making it much more of a paper threat than anything else, and removing a tool for offense to ward off the likes of Blastoise, Salazzle, Heliolisk and Mowtom would, in my opinion, cause more harm than good.