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Even the standard defensive set of Heatran can force or beat Latios 1v1 if it doesn't come in Surf/EQ and can take a hit from Latios to put get in an offensive revenge killer (priority/scarfers). Even Clefable can be adjusted to carry more spdef should the team demand a better spdef wall.
Heatran is not a good answer at all. Not only does it prefer phys sets with flame body to check outrage locked garchomp and banded Weavile, it lacks recovery and is relied on to take many attacks so it gets worn down insanely fast. Plus hoping Latios to not have SE coverage is not counterplay.
Clef cannot afford to drop defense because it is relied on to check huge phys threats like Garchomp. Even if it ran max Spdef
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
And it is forced into unaware which means it becomes hazard and status weak. Which means
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
so it doesn't even check it reliably and outright can't with even tiny chip prior.
Speaking of Spdef TTar, it doesnt lose to weavile unless it carries the rare Brick Break, in which case if weavile starts using it more ttar could run Chopple and if the team is weak to weavile.
Spdef Ttar is a bad set. Passive and exploitable and weak. And running non lefties items means it gets worn down really fast. And it doesn't check much of anything. Also if it drops lefties then it definitely loses to Weavile.
252 Atk Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 121-144 (29.9 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
also Ttar isn't even that good right now anyways so...
I do not think Latios restricts teambuilding in anyway. It's probably the strongest Spatk wallbreaker/revenge with good coverage in the meta right now, but let's compare it to gengar, which had virtually no switch-ins to its stab+coverage. Latios on the other hand has checks and hard counters, and get's revenged easier as it doesn't have the priority immunity which gengar was able to use more due to lack of pursuit.
Teambuilding Balance: Can fit in a Spdef answer somewhat naturally, though not always the case. But likely it is very likely to carry atleast 1 offensive check to it by means common scarfers or priority users.
Latios has switch ins but those switch ins have to run mediocre or terrible sets to do so. Also let's quit using priority when talking Latios because other than Choice band dnite espeed and ice shard, no priority in OU threatens it at all.
Latios does not NEED magnezone. It simply has the option to use it to make nuking even easier. As for point 4, if the only reliable offensive option is to run a scarfers to try and revenge it (hint: it can switch out if it is still healthy), it is a problem. Latios forces at least one hard check and a soft check + scarfers to truly allow teams to be safe. This is infact very restrictive when said defensive checks are limited.
2) Natural teambuilding didnt lead to natural checks (Specific CM blissey sets rose up, SPdef ttar chopple for focus miss coverage, UU and lower mons like drapion were used tried as checks).
I'm not sure if you haven't seen usage stats for either but Scizor still sits near 50% in usage. Blissey isn't far behind. And Latios is a huge contributing factor to the former being used so much.
However, I have seen plenty of scenarios (not just from myself, but from various people's replays), where Scizor gets a roost of after getting a free switch and getting a roost off(by either a good double or a teammate sacrifice which is worth the switch to scizor).
But on the defensive side, do i see some mons rise up because latios is gone? No, as I mentioned teams aside from HO are almost always naturally build in a way that have a counter/check for almost any latios set (with exception of the more rarer but slower CM set)`and if neccessary one could go out of his way to search for hard checks like Spdef Ttar
On the defensive side people will finally breath and not have to run junk Spdef Scizor and CM Blissey. Or junk Spdef passive Jirachi sets and could instead run better sets. And again, Spdef Ttar is bad. Suggesting it supports the argument favor of a ban than anything.
For Latios to beat Scizor by itself is required some good prediction and/or luck, and latios is going to either end choice locked in a non-stab move or not dealing enough damage to put scizor in a bad position, without zone putting pressure the scizor player should have the advantage.
Blissey is going to be passive with any set and most of the time you dont even have to use niche stuff like cm as twave is usually enough to keep latios under control, specially if you run other checks like heatran, tyranitar, jirachi, clefable, magnezone, etc. that will have an easy time handling a paralyzed latios after Blissey revealed the set.
Im not a big fan of Jirachi, but it does his job just fine, it will either paralyze Latios or uturn away into something dangerous like Weavile.
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 132-156 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Rocks+meteor forces a roost.
Blissey can't rely on just twave even with extra checks because... Latios can just switch out. And no Heatran, Ttar, Clef are not good Latios checks.
I Took a week break from bdsp and it ended right when the suspect test announcement happened so I decided to play and get req's and overall see how i still felt about Latios during my time doing this i've come to the conclusion that its just a solid mon; its a bit annoying having to have some sort of check or defensive answer, but other than that I don't think much of it beyond those thought's.
Good Defensive counterplay for it consists of spdef Scizor, Jirachi and Blissey and while Magnezone can help with Scizor, Jirachi only needs 20 Speed Ev's to uturn away from timid Magnezone which quite honestly is not game losing bulk and this gives you a trapping immune check outside of blissey. Outside of that there exists other mons that slow Latios down spdef Ttar, Heatran, Slowking and some situational mons like Gardevoir and Umbreon.
As for offensive mon's theres an alright list to choose from we have Weavile, Mamoswine, Alakazam, quite a bit of naturally faster mon's, Azelf, Starmie, Raikou, While they do need some degree of prediction and chip to safetly remove latios which varies in difficultly but I feel alongside defensive checks and choice scafers like Garchomp, Starraptor and Gardevoir there are numerous ways to deal with this thing.
Final thoughts if you consider how good the psychic type is in Bdsp I often find the blue dragon competing quite hard for that team slot when you have things like Alakazam, Starmie and Azelf all with their own unique offensive traits and defensive mons like the Slowtwins and Jirachi all going after one team slot it goes to show this mon does come with opportunity cost.
Overall i don't find it quite as oppresive as some people do and while my views may change I feel im leaning more towards it remaining in the tier unless of course metagame developments find new ways to push it over the edge..
Tldr: "Its alright a mon to prep for but nothing that overwhelming or gamebreaking to me "
Like, the biggest problem with latios is magnezone being annoying and preventing scizor and jirachi from being able to switch in as much as they want while also abusing volt switch + sr to take way too much health from blissey and put a physical mon in the field, so yeah my problem is with zone, who also hurts skarmory viability allowing stuff like mamoswine to demolish teams, but all of that is only a problem for stall/balance.
I really don't get why it's specifically a Magnezone problem and not Latios/Zam/whatever, since Magnezone is a perfectly healthy Pokémon otherwise, as shown in... largely any other metagame; Magnet Pull can be broken by itself (hi AAA), but I'd easily argue that if you just need Scizor or Rachi to get chipped by trapping to leave Latios free to do their stupid stuff it's probably Latios' fault into having so limited effective counterplay; Magnezone just enables it
As this quote also entails:
Latios has proven that even without Magnezone, it is a pressing issue. There are a whole ton of Latios teams without Magnezone that still exploit its unhealthy factors, namely its ability to enable other broken Pokemon with plain ease. Sure, Magnezone is an ideal partner, but it isn't a mandatory one.
You *can* argue about a Magnet Pull ban, since getting rid of either one would weaken the other; but I'd rather get rid of the actual threat than ONE of the enablers of the said threat, as otherwise Magnezone is a pretty mild Pokémon, while Latios is strong with or without it (also, Skarmory does nothing against Latios at all except dying, anyway, and Jirachi can U-turn away from it, although it forces U-turn to be in the set in the first place)
I have listed down various options with that are not Scizor or CM Blissey. Spdeft TTar which I have been using quite succesfully and is as it is a Free switch in the common Heatran + Latios (so imo nowhere near niche and is underrated), thought that might be a bit biased from me. More commonly seen is various sets jirachi sets that can twave/turn/wish on latios without much care in the world. Even the standard defensive set of Heatran can force or beat Latios 1v1 if it doesn't come in Surf/EQ and can take a hit from Latios to put get in an offensive revenge killer (priority/scarfers). Even Clefable can be adjusted to carry more spdef should the team demand a better spdef wall.
if only SpDef Tyranitar was actually useful in the metagame instead of being a temporary Latios answer (which is the common problem between all the non-Scizor answers); seriously at this point just pull up the Umbreon at least that Pokémon can heal itself! /j
Also 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
uhhhhhhhhh you beat Weavile if you switch on the Throat Chop... I guess...
On the Heatran point:
1: you're already assuming that Latios doesn't have EQ or Surf, which is... well... you either found a CM Latios or a bad Latios
2: Heatran still can't recover the Meteor damage off, and it needs Payback to actually do significant damage against it, otherwise the most amount of damage you're doing is through Magma Storm chip
and running non-physdef Clef right now basically gives you a death sentence against Feraligatr and Azumarill, among other things, so you really need to find something that patches those two specific holes (which in a stall means running double Unaware, and outside means running some very hefty offensive counterplay to it, like Scarf Mower and hoping you get the trade off)
All the comparisons to Gengar are irrilevant to the point in hand, otherwise we should discuss in all the difference Drizzle, Blaziken and Gengar have; there's no point into comparing them, especially since a potential banworthy threat can be banworthy for different reasons than another
Scizor can survive a hit from Zone, but its also true that after taking a hit from specs tbolt it doesnt switch in onto Latios anymore. However, I have seen plenty of scenarios (not just from myself, but from various people's replays), where Scizor gets a roost of after getting a free switch and getting a roost off(by either a good double or a teammate sacrifice which is worth the switch to scizor).
...play better? Yes, getting a Roost off a heavily chipped Scizor isn't the hardest but also not the easiest thing to do in the metagame, especially with so many offensive plays available
It's true that you can recover from that state; the point is that it's still a very unfavorable state for the Scizor user to find itself into, regardless of the outcome (which usually ends with a dead Scizor anyway, as "unfavorable" suggests)
I do not see the need to ban Latios at all besides experimenting with the meta. Banning Latios could mean potentially Salamence rise to OU (probably not due to dnite).
Again, not a valid reason on why you should consider a Pokémon banworthy (or not); speak about the current situation, not what the future may entail if such Pokémon gets banned (or not)
I think nobody is saying that getting rid of Latios will point to Scizor disappearing automatically, it just would probably end up into having a easier time into slotting a Zam counterplay instead of a counterplay for BOTH (especially since Zam or Azelf+Tios are some very good psyspam cores)
Maybe a hot take but I actually think the Specs set is a bit overrated. 3 attacks+Roost LO/Soul Dew or 4 attacks LO Latios is a menace against any team without a SpDef Scizor or Blissey since one of the best ways to deal with Latios is to exploit the choice lock. I played exclusively Scizorless HO during my run, and playing against non-choiced Latios felt like dancing on a knife's edge where I needed to get many predictions correct in a row to not lose.
I actually agree with this and I can quite honestly read this in the arguments thrown around: a lot of people are still under the impression than the sole, broken Latios is the Choice Specs one, but quite frankly LO 3 Atks has almost the same benefits to it while being unable to fully exploit it until it actually throws the Meteor, and CM is just a very solid wincon. It's the combination of all these factors that pushes it over the edge imo.
To be clear: if I had to choose someone to throw out of the tier I would have picked Weavile first, then Latios, because I find that dealing with CB Weavile right now is just genuinely horrifying for any remotely non-stallish team, but Latios is still a problematic presence as much as I find Weavile or even Alakazam to be one and I fully believe getting rid of it would ease the sheer amount of offensive pressure that the tier needs to deal with.
Again, not a valid reason on why you should consider a Pokémon banworthy (or not); speak about the current situation, not what the future may entail if such Pokémon gets banned (or not)
This the only reason people i can somewhat see for a ban but that doesn't mean I agree with banning for the sake of shaking up the meta. Everything I mentioned is totally speculative and out of scope of the suspect test
This the only reason people i can somewhat see for a ban but that doesn't mean I agree with banning for the sake of shaking up the meta. Everything I mentioned is totally speculative and out of scope of the suspect test
I feel like saying "banning for the sake of shaking up the meta" is kind of a strawman for the suspect at hand (and I only agree with banning to shake up if it's a tier as trash as gen 7 uu). I just think Latios is an unhealthy presence for the tier and the strain that it places on teambuilding exacerbates the effects of the other oppressive offensive mons in the tier because of how they take advantage of archetypes that can properly deal with it.
About all the things that have been said in this thread, there are some things that will never change, regardless of the pokémon, the suspect test, the format, etc.
Regardless, I think it's legitimate to like the metagame as it is. If I personally don't like it, I can perfectly imagine that there are different types of players and that some of them have nothing against playing with Latios in the tier. And that's fine! I know players who only have one team per metagame and if that's how they like to play, why should we stop them? But on the other hand, why should it have any influence on other players? I would like to remind you that this type of place allows the most virulent opinions to flourish and exist, and that is fine. But the others should not be made invisible. As Lalaya mentioned, most people in the survey wants a tiering action (62,3%).
My opinion is that Latios is both broken and centralizing, but it is the latter that should justify its banning. As a broken pokémon, Latios is not the most broken but I think it can beat all the counters/checks mentioned without much help. But more importantly, this pokemon is too centralizing. As someone who plays a lot of teams, enjoys team building and playing different playstyles, I can't count the number of times I've just said "I have nothing for Latios" and added SpDef Scizor. We all know how to beat Latios but we don't have many ways to do it. I wish some people would be more honest when they say something like "Let's give people time to figure it out!" or "it has to set up to win!" but there you go. For my sanity, I played for a while with SpD Gardevoir who just shits on every Latios set I can think of. Oddly enough, the metagame hasn't shifted... As if it has not been 5 months that we are figuring out, as if a setup sweeper couldn't be banned, uh ?
I'm sorry to say we won't crack the tier. The metagame is redundant to a point that it's restrictive and less enjoyable and Latios is definitely one of the reasons. Yes, Weavile and Zam exist. Yes, they are probably both broken. But we are talking about Tios and only Tios.
This doesn't really say anything. Why is it not broken in your opinion? Why is it not unhealthy (the real issue and why it needs to go)?
I should also add that Latios' overcentralizing presence making other Pokemon inadvertently stronger and more difficult to deal with. Which in turn further restricts team building. This is by far the biggest problem with it on top of its overbearing power. We've had so long to figure this out after the first suspect didn't ban it, and nothing has changed for the better regarding it.
Secondly, I've been playing bdsp ou since it came out and I've never really had a problem with lati. Yeah it's strong, but there's plenty pokemon which check it - scizor, jirachi, empoleon, heatran, ttar, blissey etc. It can also be revenge killed by the likes of weavile, zam, starmie, mamo, scarf chomp, scarf togekiss, etc. It's not like scizor is the only check like some people seem to think.
Yeah it's a mon which you have to account for when building a team, but that's no different than any other attacking threat. I've built a pretty wide variety of teams in bdsp and have never felt absolutely constricted to certain mons or playstyles to deal with it. There's still room for creativity.
On paper maybe it seems overpowered, but in practice I haven't found that's the case.
Secondly, I've been playing bdsp ou since it came out and I've never really had a problem with lati. Yeah it's strong, but there's plenty pokemon which check it - scizor, jirachi, empoleon, heatran, ttar, blissey etc. It can also be revenge killed by the likes of weavile, zam, starmie, mamo, scarf chomp, scarf togekiss, etc. It's not like scizor is the only check like some people seem to think.
Yeah it's a mon which you have to account for when building a team, but that's no different than any other attacking threat. I've built a pretty wide variety of teams in bdsp and have never felt absolutely constricted to certain mons or playstyles to deal with it. There's still room for creativity.
On paper maybe it seems overpowered, but in practice I haven't found that's the case.
This feels like you're only acknowledging the specs set, which those are indeed good answers to. However, specs latios is imo by far the more manageable set compared to LO or CM, both of which allow it to not be restricted by the choice lock.
LO is great at breaking. Mons like Heatran, Ttar and Empoleon hate boosted taking boosted EQs (or surfs, in the former two's case). Jirachi can take two, but all it takes is minor chip damage for it to go down. CM, on the other hand, doesnt let tios bypass as many mons, but the spdef boosts mean its not as easily revenge killed. Suddenly, it can take zam shadow ball and starmie ice beam. Roost also helps it stay out of range of priority attacks. There's also the benefit of forcing Blissey to run CM.
Secondly, I've been playing bdsp ou since it came out and I've never really had a problem with lati. Yeah it's strong, but there's plenty pokemon which check it - scizor, jirachi, empoleon, heatran, ttar, blissey etc. It can also be revenge killed by the likes of weavile, zam, starmie, mamo, scarf chomp, scarf togekiss, etc. It's not like scizor is the only check like some people seem to think.
Scizor has to run junk Spdef sets which suck and are majorly passive, Jirachi has similar issues with its sets being passive and exploitable (especially wishtect sets). Empoleon just isn't great or even good. Heatran is not a good Latios check. Ttar is a mediocre Latios check and not a great Mon in the tier period, and Blissey can't check all of Tios' sets without running CM sets of its own which are bad sets. No one claims Latios doesn't have defensive answers. It's that the ones that exist have major issues. The other problem is teams need at least two defensive checks and a faster check, which limits team building significantly.
It's not like it runs one set either. LO and CM sets also exist and are hugely threatening, while also shifting what is considered a check and limits team building.
I voted no ban on Latios because it was early in the metagame, and I wanted to give the meta more time in its raw(er) state. Scizor, Blissey and Jirachi made for solid checks, and while it was still a complete menace otherwise the whole metagame was so offensive where it didn't feel too out of place. In addition, a force like Gengar or to many Manaphy honestly seemed a lot stupider and made Latios seem like less of a problem.
However, in the time that's passed since then, I've flipped entirely! We got rid of Gengar, and in my personal view it's become clear that Latios is the culprit holding back the tier from evolving. Turns out having to put Scizor, Blissey and Jirachi on literally every team is pretty constrictive and more importantly not very fun, and even the HO teams that are most able to get away without running one of these three struggle to stop Latios from getting a free kill due to its overwhelmingly good stats on all fronts. For the good of the tier and any sense of it moving forward from its current rather stagnant state I say the smart move is to BanLa tio s
Scizor has to run junk Spdef sets which suck and are majorly passive, Jirachi has similar issues with its sets being passive and exploitable (especially wishtect sets). Empoleon just isn't great or even good. Heatran is not a good Latios check. Ttar is a mediocre Latios check and not a great Mon in the tier period, and Blissey can't check all of Tios' sets without running CM sets of its own which are bad sets. No one claims Latios doesn't have defensive answers. It's that the ones that exist have major issues. The other problem is teams need at least two defensive checks and a faster check, which limits team building significantly.
I don't agree with having to run two defensive checks and a fast check. One defensive check and / or a revenge killer has always worked fine for me.
Also, I don't believe lati is excessively different to any other attacking threat in the tier. Mons such as azu, crawdaunt, infernape, zam, weavile, garchomp, feraligatr, mamo, lucario are all strong mons with limited checks. They all have to be accounted for in the teambuilder. I don't believe lati is a significant exception in this regard.
Also, I don't believe lati is excessively different to any other attacking threat in the tier. Mons such as azu, crawdaunt, infernape, zam, weavile, garchomp, feraligatr, mamo, lucario are all strong mons with limited checks. They all have to be accounted for in the teambuilder. I don't believe lati is a significant exception in this regard.
The difference is these mons either have flaws that balance them out (slow and frail in the case for Azu and Daunt, or they dont restrict teambuilding in any kind of unhealthy way like Mamo and Lucario, who also are either frail or slow and thus have reasonable counterplay). Latios does restrict teambuilding and forces overly specific (and generally bad) sets on mons which has caused the metagame to stagnate and be unhealthy.
(slow and frail in the case for Azu and Daunt, or they dont restrict teambuilding in any kind of unhealthy way like Mamo and Lucario, who also are either frail or slow and thus have reasonable counterplay)
The effect latios has on teambuilding is imo on the same/similar lv as most of the mentioned mons. Latios has some bulk but isnt the bulkiest and requires little chip to revenge.
For example LO adamant Mamoswine gutters Latios if not full hp 252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Also I seem to be one of if not the only one saying that spdef ttar is a great counter as it can cripple latios with twave or setup rocks as. A bit off topic but allow me to explain why I say ttar is currently rlly under utilized. Spdef ttar takes any hit and although it doesnt switch in on mons carrying focus blast such as zam, they have to predict as ttar takes a focus blast from full and still preventing psychic spam. And if rlly necessary could be run chople (prefer lefties as the amount of hits it can take makes the difference) 252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 338-400 (83.6 - 99%)
In my testing ttar understandably invites in gliscor which can defog or rocks on ttar and therefore i always paired my ttar with stuff like mamoswine which can come in on any gliscor set. Also the affermentioned ttar provides the necessary sand chip for revenging latios -> see the Mamo calc.
So in my scenario ttar always comes in on latios and if latios didn't switch depending on their team ttar gets up rocks, chip on incoming mons or twave. If it's the very common gliscor switch in yes it can defog, but so comes in mamo for free and if it u-turns or knocks more chip or kill on team. Mostly a win win scenario.
Cripples & chips latios with sand(if it stayed in) while also being able to take ANY HIT while remaining relatively healthy (yes ttar can get chipped down itself by hazards, and get doubled on, still prevents latios from doing anything useful). No matter the latios can't CM or life orb latios will lose something. Twave or just the 1 sand chip + rocks allowing team team to finish it off (if its the cm/LO set and carries recover its already crippled by twave).
Spdef ttar also has a free switch on Heatran, a very common and treat to many teams. It takes magma storm like a champ (yes it gets trapped but so does every mon that switches in), takes earth power and specs flash canmon very well too allowing ttar to chunk down with eq or just set up rocks
Forces opponent to make choices: ttar typing also helps in checking mons like weavile or zam from spamming their stab. Ttar eats a throat chop and can take a hit from a banded icicle crash (3hko without rocks rocks does pose a problem but like i said ttar forces prediction games vs these treatening mons). Since LO zam fails to OHKO ttar from full it may be worth exploring changing evs a bit to make sure ttar also tanks 2 crashes after rocks while making sure that zam MUST use focus blast. Ttar aint going to be the at full health most of the time so might as well do it,?
People like to argue that ttar gives free switch to stuff like glis that defogs or that wants to setup. At that point ttar can just twave cripple or double into a teammate that clicks buttons (i love mammy ttar duo for that reason).
Unlike jirachi ttar is a defensive rocker that while lacking its recovery is less passive having acces ro better moves and could potentially para flinch with twave rock slide combo (more accuracy + more pp + more guarenteed chip as spdef ttar doesnt need the KO power perse)
Back to the main topic part of teambuilding is supposed to take into account treats to certain mons, in with regards to latios wether banned or not is a serious treat. The argument I see the most for ban is that Blissey and Scizor is the only real viable option and must have on each team, but bc of my opinion that although not a great set for ttar, spdef ttar has a place in the meta (checking latios and heatran)
If i manage to get reqs I will be voting No Ban Latios unless people convince me otherwise especially about ttar and why the offensive revenge killers in scarfers or ice sharders are not viable. So far i have barely missed hitting reqs but in my testing and laddering for the suspect test, latios isn't the problem I faced even when using a weak teams without a dedicated latios defensive check (In the suspect test I never used defensive blissey).
Spdef Ttar has no sustain: while ttar is prone to be chipped itself during a game, while testing its main purpose is checking commonly tran and latios (sometimes rotom wash as a pivot/chip/will-o take for team)
Yes ttar cannot safely switch in on zam, but it does force zam to predict. It can't slam psychic and ttar lives a focus blast from full hp especially if zam is the sash set.
Like the quoted text, there are others very dangerous pokemons which, yes all carry different weaknesses like slower or less bulky, still have to be accounted for in teambuilding in the same if not similar manner as Latios. I do not see much of a difference in teambuilding accounting for lucario or feralifatr which I do than I do for latios which I also do, with my mamy ttar pairing.
Meta game needs change: this is a no brainer banning latios for the sake of shaking up the meta is wrong.
Latios is incredibly broken and has been since day 1. I explained this back then and it remains true now; the pool of Latios checks has gotten even smaller since then as it is generally agreed upon that Pokemon like Jirachi and CM Blissey are dogshit outside of beating Latios specifically. Instead I'll attempt to refute some of the arguments listed here.
I have listed down various options with that are not Scizor or CM Blissey. Spdeft TTar which I have been using quite succesfully and is as it is a Free switch in the common Heatran + Latios (so imo nowhere near niche and is underrated), thought that might be a bit biased from me. More commonly seen is various sets jirachi sets that can twave/turn/wish on latios without much care in the world. Even the standard defensive set of Heatran can force or beat Latios 1v1 if it doesn't come in Surf/EQ and can take a hit from Latios to put get in an offensive revenge killer (priority/scarfers). Even Clefable can be adjusted to carry more spdef should the team demand a better spdef wall.
Specially defensive Tyranitar is a fine Latios switch in one time; it is no more than this, though. Yes, Tyranitar obviously wins the 1v1, but the big problem is that Tyranitar is one of the easiest Pokemon in the tier to switch into thanks to how pathetically passive it is when not running a lot of Attack investment. Scizor, Breloom, Rotom-W, Garchomp, Azumarill, Gliscor, Feraligatr, Skarmory, Tangrowth, Milotic, heck even Pokemon like Slowbro and Infernape don't mind switching into those weak Crunches, and while Tyranitar can carry coverage for a lot of these Pokemon, it can't fit all of it reliably and it fails to KO half of them anyway (Ice Beam isn't OHKOing Garchomp or Gliscor, Fire Blast isn't KOing Breloom or Tangrowth, etc...). Even with all those major issues aside, Tyranitar's niche is essentially limited to beating Latios (and Latias by extension) and Heatran. It cannot switch into any other Pokemon in the entire tier and come out on top, as other special attackers in Alakazam, Clefable, Starmie, Rotom-W etc. all carry moves that hit it too hard or just aren't threatened significantly by it.
The problem isn't that TTar can't handle Latios. The problem is that it can't do anything meaningful on its own. It's just a wasted slot that switches into Latios twice before dying anyway, which is why it doesn't see use and thus doesn't see success.
I'm not even going to address the others as I did in my previous post - they're all terrible Latios checks that either have to make massive sacrifices to beat it, or they just straight up don't beat it to begin with.
Also, I don't believe lati is excessively different to any other attacking threat in the tier. Mons such as azu, crawdaunt, infernape, zam, weavile, garchomp, feraligatr, mamo, lucario are all strong mons with limited checks. They all have to be accounted for in the teambuilder. I don't believe lati is a significant exception in this regard.
Of all the mons you listed, here are the differences:
- Azumarill, Crawdaunt, Feraligatr, Mamoswine and Lucario are all relatively slow and thus kept in check by faster breakers. Latios is not, as it is the defining speed tier in BDSP OU - with only three actually common Pokemon above it, Latios is at a pinnacle speed tier without compensating on power at all, unlike these Pokemon.
- Crawdaunt, Feraligatr, Mamoswine, Lucario, Infernape, Alakazam and Weavile bring little to no defensive utility to their team and are thus difficult to get onto the field; while they may be just as if not more threatening when they do get opportunities to attack, they do not get them nearly as often as Latios does. Latios's great natural bulk and amazing resistances/immunities let it switch into Pokemon like Rotom-W, Breloom, Skarmory, Slowbro, Magnezone, Tangrowth, Shaymin and more for free, and with Roost it can continually do this all game.
- Garchomp lacks immediate power and struggles to break through Pokemon like Starmie, Slowbro, Skarmory, Tangrowth, and Clefable, ensuring it has multiple splashable checks on any given team. In terms of Pokemon you can realistically fit on a team without making your team significantly worse against the rest of the metagame, Latios struggles to break through Scizor and only Scizor.
I feel like I've addressed everything as is - multiple people have quit this tier because of Latios's ridiculous influence. It is not a remotely balanced Pokemon. Removing this Pokemon would significantly free up teambuilding and lead to more viable routes and thus a much more fun metagame. Please don't make the same mistake again.
For example LO adamant Mamoswine gutters Latios if not full hp 252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Scizor, Breloom, Rotom-W, Garchomp, Azumarill, Gliscor, Feraligatr, Skarmory, Tangrowth, Milotic, heck even Pokemon like Slowbro and Infernape don't mind switching into those weak Crunches, and while Tyranitar can carry coverage for a lot of these Pokemon, it can't fit all of it reliably and it fails to KO half of them anyway (Ice Beam isn't OHKOing Garchomp or Gliscor, Fire Blast isn't KOing Breloom or Tangrowth, etc...). Even with all those major issues aside, Tyranitar's niche is essentially limited to beating Latios (and Latias by extension) and Heatran. It cannot switch into any other Pokemon in the entire tier and come out on top, as other special attackers in Alakazam, Clefable, Starmie, Rotom-W etc. all carry moves that hit it too hard or just aren't threatened significantly by it.
The problem isn't that TTar can't handle Latios. The problem is that it can't do anything meaningful on its own. It's just a wasted slot that switches into Latios twice before dying anyway, which is why it doesn't see use and thus doesn't see success.
Being the besr switchins and getting free rocks on tran and latios 2 very common mons. I don't see that being niche especially on tran and its common spdef set which tickles ttar.
Scizor, Breloom, Rotom-W, Garchomp, Azumarill, Gliscor, Feraligatr, Skarmory, Tangrowth, Milotic, heck even Pokemon like Slowbro and Infernape don't mind switching into those weak Crunches
Setup mons like azu and feraligatr dont mind the chip but do mind getting paraed. A crippled sweeper might as well not sweep. Not to mention ttar teammates can cover that hole (as one supposed to as i mentioned these are treats to be considered when building a team)
Gliscor already mentioned b4, it switches in on rocks and then has to make a decision, return rocks, eq, defog, turn, knock and maybe roost from earlier damage or even crazier sd right there? U notice that my example with mamy comes in on all those moves, with u turn and knock off being worst case both of which keep up rocks for more chip on latios.
Tangrowth Milotic and Slowbro: are passive themselves and bro and milotic wouldnt liked to be paralyzed by twave (especially milotic sets that are not marvel scale or carry the more preferable burn).
Rotom wash: very anoying for ttar but depending on the matchup this ttar doesnr mind a burn thar much as its all about chipping/checking mostly tran and latios. Can also take a hydro from the non specs set and especially the defensive rotom wash sets rlly well.
Yes latios has a great influence on teambuilding but so do do the other mons. Either latios speed tier at 350 with specs or soul dew makes it easy for many scarfers to revenge (LO is rlly scary but most es to revenge of them all) or it uses scarf hitting still decently but nowhere hurts near ass much as much as any of the other sets and therefore less scary and imo the most cheesy set of all the sets available to latios. Latios may have some good natural bulk but that natural bulk doesnt save it from revenge killers, most of them being good without the presense of latios. Thinking about teambuilding naturally one have to take into accounts of potential treats and latios is one of them, but so is feraligatr or azumaril. Azumarill for example its belly drum set is very well checked by clef but clef gets broken hard by its CB set and while clef is slower it also has plenty of time to switch into favourable stuff to click buttons due to its decent bulk like a certain Latios. How is latios more opressive than any of these mon?? Latios is one of the strongest mons in the meta and it stands out bc it is but I doubt banning Latios does anything to teambuilding being less oppressive, there still enough dragons meaning ice shard is going to remain and you still have all those afformentioned dangerous mons, which are deemed "less" oppressive like azumaril, feraligatr, lucario etc.
I also think people severly dismiss spdef ttar in its capabilities of checking both tran and latios by taking minimal damage for repeated switchins and yes it cant come in after 2x switching into surf but that can be worked around as you still giving latios sand chip which makes latios very revengable such as mamoswine and weavile and when u add 1x rocks chip to it latios is in range for many regular scarfers. Yes latios can recover but do u see a latios use recover at 94% hp (1x sand) ( early in the game just to avoid in my examples case a potential mamoswine ice shard. It could but that would also mean paralyze from ttar.
Mamo, at higher ranges of ladder, commonly run lefties over even LO, and at that point
252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 174-206 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
now LO is a decent set, but it also is prone to rocks, and switch stalling to weaken Mamo. Speaking of which, Mamo doesn't get knock off in BDSP. Which means Slowbro can freely stand in its way. And thus it endlessly walls it unless it runs freeze dry.
Unlike jirachi ttar is a defensive rocker that while lacking its recovery is less passive having acces ro better moves and could potentially para flinch with twave rock slide combo (more accuracy + more pp + more guarenteed chip as spdef ttar doesnt need the KO power perse)
Ttar is more passive and that is an achievement. Also assuming it runs Stealth Rock/Twave set you only have two free moveslots. You also want a lot for those two slots. EQ for Heatran, crunch for psychics, fire coverage for steels, ice coverage for dragons, and that's without considering that it hardly threatens anything without investment.
Ttar cannot really check anything defensively as its typing is far too weakness laden and it's too slow and lacking recovery. And thus it switches into Latios one time and then can't do it again, especially if rocks are up at any point when it switches in. And it won't twave Latios as it won't stay in if it won't guarantee that KO on Ttar.
Spdef Ttar is a bad set, even you acknowledge it isn't great. There is a reason Ttar isn't common and it isn't because it's underrated.
Mamo, at higher ranges of ladder, commonly run lefties over even LO, and at that point
252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 174-206 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
now LO is a decent set, but it also is prone to rocks, and switch stalling to weaken Mamo. Speaking of which, Mamo doesn't get knock off in BDSP. Which means Slowbro can freely stand in its way. And thus it endlessly walls it unless it runs freeze dry.
One could opt for the never melt mamoswine as a mid ground (and is the actual set i used for mamy due to me hating LO recoil in general)
252+ Atk Never-Melt Ice Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 210-248 (69.7 - 82.3%)
Latios gets into range after either 2/3 sand chip 1/2 rocks chip. Still less guarentee than LO mamoswine but retains some of that longevity and still opening up freeze dry for wash though ofc not as of an reliable 2hko after rocks the chance to do so is there and with how rotom is often used as a pivot the scenario where rotom gets into a 2hko range is even more likely. (This is the set i actually used on my spdef ttar mamy team and most of my mamoswine sets as its still 3x ice coverage without recoil)
0 SpA Never-Melt Ice Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 128-152 (42.1 - 50%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I was editing my post so it mightve been missed but i believe ttar coverage isnt as much needed as is and requires utility + chip allowing your teammates to shine and is a good set for the needs of saying why its good and its not niche, checking latios and tran while also don't minding to dying to stuff like wash or zam for trading chip damage or taking a burn as its not meant to do that, it shines and this specific but very common scenario or latios and tran. It doesn't need the coverage as its not supposed to kill stuff aside of maybe latios and tran that stay in on it. And its not even supposed to kill latios sure it can with crunch bur i believe its eq rockslide provides overall better chip coverage. Bc a set is specific won't make it niche(maybe i should use a differenr word?) bc latios and tran are common. The sand + rocks serves the chip to wear down latios for revenging and lets say if it was niche, drapion was definetly niche when gengar was arouns but that couldnt do anything vs gengar teamsz ttar provides sand rocks and twave support and everything else is mostly for chip and setting up revenge killing which is how i used this ttar which worked on the high ladder (peaked around 1750~ with this team)
Also although usage/quality of a mon in a tier overlap most of the time, doesnt mean thats always the case. While the spdef set might be uu tier in usage that doesnt mean its bad as u say, otherwise stuff like gastro and quag or the occasional gyarados are also bad and dont have a place in the tier.
Also even if it doesnr 1v1 alot its natural bulk in irs sheer pseudo legendary stats still allow it to take some hits even if its typing is bound to get it killed meaning its still can be allowed to spread twaves or do chip damage with its moves and provide chip damage in sand. Sand chip is morepowerful than people might realize for example rotom doesnt mind a burn but also doesnt like it, sand essentially is a temporary burn or even worse if stacked on top of burn. Passive damage is one of the most limited but best ways of damage imo hence stall or defensive teams are so prevelent in high ladder (and people start adapting by running lefties on stuff like mamy for longevity).
Honestly idk abt if latios should be banned cuz there are several checks. U got weavile switching on a Psychic, scizor resists both stabs and hits hard with a u turn but even with a single calm mind it is a rlly big threat. I don't rlly think it should be banned and honestly believe it should just remain tier king
Mamo still gets walled by Slowbro only now it also gets walled by Clefable too. And maybe some others I forget about. Mamo is excellent, don't get me wrong, but since Ttar can't check Latios more than once, you also won't get to chip Latios reliably to KO it. And again, it'll just switch out if need be.
I was editing my post so it mightve been missed but i believe ttar coverage isnt as much needed as is and requires utility + chip allowing your teammates to shine and is a good set for the needs of saying why its good and its not niche, checking latios and tran while also don't minding to dying to stuff like wash or zam for trading chip damage or taking a burn as its not meant to do that, it shines and this specific but very common scenario or latios and tran.
Without coverage Ttar becomes really exploitable and it lets in a ton of dangerous threats for free. This puts you on the back foot and gives your opponent a lot of momentum. It doesn't shine vs either Heatran or Latios (the former can just smack it with Flash Cannon and taunt it so Ttar can't even use its supposed utility). Latios beats Ttar on the second switch in with rocks up, so it doesn't shine there either.
It doesn't need the coverage as its not supposed to kill stuff aside of maybe latios and tran that stay in on it. And its not even supposed to kill latios sure it can with crunch bur i believe its eq rockslide provides overall better chip coverage.
If you want a utility Mon there are far better options. If it lacks coverage it becomes easily exploited. If you want a sand setters Hippowdon at least has recovery. If your switch in isn't doing enough to contribute to the game after soaking a hit, it's a questionable pick.
Also although usage/quality of a mon in a tier overlap most of the time, doesnt mean thats always the case. While the spdef set might be uu tier in usage that doesnt mean its bad as u say, otherwise stuff like gastro and quag or the occasional gyarados are also bad and dont have a place in the tier.
I'll be the first person to say usage doesn't always reflect viability coughambipomcough. But Ttar was used more commonly early on and has dropped off in usage since. And Latios has existed in the tier since day one. If Ttar is dropping in usage despite this supposed niche you claim it has, there is probably a good reason.
Honestly idk abt if latios should be banned cuz there are several checks. U got weavile switching on a Psychic, scizor resists both stabs and hits hard with a u turn but even with a single calm mind it is a rlly big threat. I don't rlly think it should be banned and honestly believe it should just remain tier king
Latios spams Dracos before psychics. Weavile is no switch in, and also is SR so it dies to Latios coverage. Scizor has to run SpDef which is a bad set, and... Yeah.
It's been pointed out but people have quit playing the tier and more still have quit. Latios has been an unhealthy and warping presence since day one, doesn't contribute positively to the tier and restricts team building in a ridiculous manner.
Mamo still gets walled by Slowbro only now it also gets walled by Clefable too. And maybe some others I forget about. Mamo is excellent, don't get me wrong, but since Ttar can't check Latios more than once, you also won't get to chip Latios reliably to KO it. And again, it'll just switch out if need be.
Without coverage Ttar becomes really exploitable and it lets in a ton of dangerous threats for free. This puts you on the back foot and gives your opponent a lot of momentum. It doesn't shine vs either Heatran or Latios (the former can just smack it with Flash Cannon and taunt it so Ttar can't even use its supposed utility). Latios beats Ttar on the second switch in with rocks up, so it doesn't shine there either.
If you want a utility Mon there are far better options. If it lacks coverage it becomes easily exploited. If you want a sand setters Hippowdon at least has recovery. If your switch in isn't doing enough to contribute to the game after soaking a hit, it's a questionable pick.
There are better picks to deal with both. Ttar doesn't have this niche because it's outclassed. Simply put.
I'll be the first person to say usage doesn't always reflect viability coughambipomcough. But Ttar was used more commonly early on and has dropped off in usage since. And Latios has existed in the tier since day one. If Ttar is dropping in usage despite this supposed niche you claim it has, there is probably a good reason.
Latios spams Dracos before psychics. Weavile is no switch in, and also is SR so it dies to Latios coverage. Scizor has to run SpDef which is a bad set, and... Yeah.
It's been pointed out but people have quit playing the tier and more still have quit. Latios has been an unhealthy and warping presence since day one, doesn't contribute positively to the tier and restricts team building in a ridiculous manner.
Yea I'm wondering if we can call blissey/clefable a counter w/ twave or toxic to cripple latios and then kill it w/ a moonblast/stall(with blissey. Overall though I love ur analysis.
since this metagame is mostly community run isn't there a possibility to instead of just outright banning it. for there to be a way where you can limit it? for instance just banning psychic on latios or banning draco meteors? to make more pokemon able to come in. to make it less strong while still keeping it in a format for people that enjoy latios or for pokemon it keeps in check even if its just less checking. if you remove psychic clef becomes another option to deal with latios. remove draco meteor and dragon pulse although weaker still allows it to deal with garchomp while also letting more things switch in reliatively unscathed from a big nuke. i know that isnt really how things are usually done but i just want to put it out there.
