Announcement np: BDSP OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Asteroid

[Lalaya]

(thanks Lumari for the song)​

Hello everyone! Following the results of the last survey, the council has decided to suspect test Latios (again!).

As you probably already know by now, Latios has been a dominant and centralizing piece of the metagame right from the start due to its fantastic all-round qualities. Its Special Attack and Speed are both fantastic, and they're backed up by a powerful STAB move in Draco Meteor, a reliable STAB Psychic, and various coverage options that help it out against would-be answers. This makes Latios a great wallbreaker and revenge killer in one, but it doesn't end there- Latios has deceptively good bulk in combination with its solid set of resistances and Levitate, which makes it quite easy to switch in even without the support of some of this tier's fantastic pivots and gives it unprecedented staying power for something so strong and fast. Much of what was said in the first suspect thread remains true in the current metagame- we'd recommend anyone less familiar with the metagame to read the opening post over there.

Latios's Choice Specs set has been its most popular set since the very start, and never let go of it for obvious reasons: very few Pokemon can handle Choice Specs Draco Meteor, and those who can either don't stand up to repeated assaults at all, are vulnerable to one of Latios's coverage options blasting them on switchin, are passive and exploitable, or are called Scizor. Even Scizor isn't entirely safe, though, as not only is it obviously vulnerable to Magnezone on DragMag but also 2HKOed by the niche Thunder (or the even more niche manual Rain-boosted Surf). A more recent trend, however, is the constantly increasing popularity of the Soul Dew set that runs Calm Mind, Draco Meteor, Psychic, and Recover in order to ease prediction and act as a win condition versus more balanced styles. Players are now often faced with a guessing game- if the opposing Latios is CM Soul Dew then giving it a free setup opportunity could be fatal, but staying in to try and punish that in some way may result in massive damage or a KO from Choice Specs Latios. In any case, the guessing game is more of a bonus as both of these sets consistently put in work in any matchup. Having two equally powerful sets under its belt, alongside other more niche but threatening options such as Life Orb and Choice Scarf, can make being confident about what Latios will do to you quite difficult.

As always, Latios isn't perfect. Scizor is a sturdy answer in most scenarios if not played recklessly, which is bad news for Latios when Scizor is as popular as ever- though of course, as said earlier, it's far from impenetrable. Stall has adapted to a powerful presence by once again picking up Calm Mind Blissey, which makes the style quite resilient to Latios alongside Clefable forcing precise prediction from the Latios player to make progress with it. It's possible to cover Latios's most likely attacking options on balance with solid prediction- for example, Specially Defensive Heatran paired with a Water resist can keep Latios in check if you predict it well enough. The metagame also has various offensive Pokemon that can exploit Latios- the most prominent is Weavile, who easily outspeeds and threatens to OHKO with either STAB move. Weavile is, however, also a great partner for Latios that naturally covers many of its bad matchups and helps soften the likes of Scizor and Heatran, so this balances out somewhat. Latios weakening itself with Draco Meteor can also leave it open to becoming setup fodder against massive threats like Azumarill or Feraligatr, but this is far from an unmanageable flaw and can usually be played around. As it stands, none of these flaws are enough to prevent Latios from being absolutely dominant.

While things have changed around it since the last suspect test, Latios has remained as good, if not better, than it was, and it continues to shape the tier around itself. Very few of the playerbase's speculative ideas for keeping it in check have really panned out, and this is reflected in the playerbase voting more than ever to take action on it again.

• ***THIS IS NEW TO GEN 8 SUSPECTS*** Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 78 GXE will suffice.

Minimum games needed

GXE	Minimum games
78	50
78.2	49
78.4	48
78.6	47
78.8	46
79	45
79.2	44
79.4	43
79.6	42
79.8	41
80	40
80.2	39
80.4	38
80.6	37
80.8	36
81	35
81.2	34
81.4	33
81.6	32
81.8	31
82	30

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be BD4S. For example, I might sign up with the ladder account BD4S Lalaya.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular BDSP OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• The aspect being tested, Latios, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or BDSP Metagames moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
• The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until May 4th at 11:59 pm (GMT+2), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects;
• No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes retesting Latios vs other potential suspects;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• You are required to read this thread before posting.
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderater.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message a BDSP OU Council Member or BDSP Metagames forum moderator, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message a BDSP OU Council Member. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message a BDSP Metagames forum moderator.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

 

[Eve]

Quick reminder to read the thread rules! No unhelpful one-liners- Discord is a good place for those. Happy posting!

 

[Amberr]

HOLY SHIT FINALLY MY BULLYING WORKED
anyways ill make this quick but
tios is an overwhelming offensive presence forcing at least 1 check onto any remotely slow team, and in a format without assault vest having a base 110 speed special attacker with no real switchins that can run any coverage that it wants to killing its main checks over the course of a game is plain unhealthy and honestly not fun
ban this mf ong frfr
(purely subjective opinion that will be changed later no i do not take criticism take it up with my lawyer)
-amber

 

[Insou]

Latios is undeniably one of the most versatile mon in the metagame due to it's capability to hinder down it's counters as mentioned previously in the reasoning.

What is Latios's impact in the metagame?
It's extremely unhealthy as It caused a shift into a more bulky metagame which forced people to run blissey, jirachi and scizor in order to mitigate the overall damage that it can cause; Although scizor is a more subjective due to it being a staple in most teams. Specs set is extremely forgiving and opens up multitude of opportunities for its teammate to clean once the opposing team has been worn down with either psychic or Dmeteor. However, Specs is only one of its prominent sets which roughly invalidates most of its common answers in the metagame such as: Empoleon, jirachi, and heatran as with it's access to Earthquake, Surf and Thunderbolt which is seen in either LO or Soul dew sets. It's restrictive, with the removal of Pursuit in gen 8, and gengar's recent departure, Latios lost arguably one of its offensive counterplay if its running scarfed or risking a speed tie to create some progress without inevitably being forced into a reset and into a volt turn to cycle back into latios. Regardless both mons should have been banned, but its been proven time and time again that the metagame would be much healthier without Latios.

 

[Lalaya]

Quick reminder to read the thread rules! No unhelpful one-liners- Discord is a good place for those. Happy posting!

 

[DerpySuX]

I don’t play BDSP as much as I did back when it was new, so my opinion is not as reliable as most others who know the current metagame better, but I will say this much.

Latios was one of, if not the very first BDSP suspect test, before many, many other things got banned. It just barely avoided getting banned then, and that was before we had the time to explore what it was capable of doing. On top of this, Latios was considered potentially problematic BEFORE the bans of other extremely powerful Pokémon (ex Manaphy, Gengar), and as the power of the metagame gets reigned in further, it’s very likely that latios will begin to stick out as a problem more and more.

Maybe I’m wrong and better players have found ways to handle Latios that myself and others haven’t quite caught on to yet, but as it stands, if it’s being suspected again this quickly, imo that’s a pretty telling sign. I was pro ban then, and I’m pro ban now.

 

[QuickBH]

Wow this went completely under the radar I didn't even know there was a suspect test going on and it's been almost 2 days at this point with very little discussion.

Anyways not much to say. Latios is a strong mon but is not impressively broken. I'm forced to run offensive checks such as Weavile or other strong revenge killers due to the looming threat of Alakazam, Starmie, and his sister and balance/stall are not unviable or even heavily restricted by Latios due to said aforementioned threats also forcing mons like Blissey, Scizor, and Clefable. (Mainly due to other dragons though not psychics) Also while people claim Latios has only gotten better with metagame usage I'd definitely say Latios has become far less versatile and more predictable as people realized that Latias is overall more versatile and effective at other roles than Latios. CM Latios, for instance, struggles with stall and really wants the power boost where Latias does noticeably better with access to Reflect Type and Stored Power, and Latias is a far better scarfer because the extra boost doesn't matter but Healing Wish is insane. Honestly the fact that Latias is so strong (and isn't just used as a discount Latios) makes this a very easy do not ban support from me. The closest argument to banning Latios is that he is arguably the most useful against multiple playstyles of all the Psychics but it's not even close to at an unhealthy level and splashability is not something inherently broken.

 

[nimzowitsch]

I voted No Ban the first time Latios is suspected but now my opinion is beginning to shift. Latios has it all: speed, power, bulk, and coverage. SpDef Scizor and Calm Mind Blissey are the only good answers to it, and both have significant flaws (trapped by Magnezone and very passive respectively). It is true that Latios is often choice-locked, which is exploitable, but a savvy Latios user can take advantage of this by running non Choice items such as Soul Dew and bluffing Choice. You think your Azumarill can Belly Drum after a Surf/Dragon Pulse? Oops, Thunderbolt, dead. In my experience, a good HO player should be able to out-offense it (it's rare you lose outright to Latios), but Latios will at least claim one kill in most scenarios (what HO mon switches in on it?). My current evaluation remains fluid but it is likely that I will vote Ban if I get reqs the second time around. I understand that this position is a significant departure from my initial evaluation, but this is since we have a clearer picture of the metagame after Manaphy and Gengar's ban. It appears that Latios's isn't managed any better than before and forces styles slower than HO to use (in my admittedly biased opinion) suboptimal sets like SpDef Scizor and CM Blissey. It is true that Latios isn't the only reason for the glut of SpDef Scizor but it is undoubtedly one of the main reasons.

 

[Megalobst]

From the start of BDSP OU I had this one opinion of Latios and it hasn't changed ever since.

Latios is a strong mon that has the ability to force people in nasty situations. However I don't think Latios is broken to the point of being ban worthy. For once, even though it has good coverage combined with high speed and high SPatk, it has great hard counters in the very common U-turn spamming Scizor Spdef and Blissey, which Latios can't touch at all. There are also lots of other great options that have a place in the meta that are less seen such as, SPdef Tyranitar(Under utilized imo) as Specs Surf coverage fails to come close to 2HKO it and can discourage the use of Psychic, Jirachi can setup rocks and u-turn treaten it and/or healing wish into a mon that can finish the off Latios not to mention that Magnezone fails to chip Jirachi efficently for Latios. Offensively Latios is checked by common scarfers such as Garchomp, Infernape turn spam(commonly paired with scizor), Starmie, Alakazam(both sash and life orb for scarf and non scarfed latios) and the Ice Sharders Mamoswine and Weavile which also covers the weaker revenge killing scarf Latios.
One could attempt to trap the steels that counter Latios with Magnezone, but this just constrains Teambuilding as defensively you would be more exposed (either your only steel is Magnezone or you carry double steel on team) and Zone doesn't guarantee a kill on Steels as Scizor and Jirachi, which it's supposed to check. Both can still U-turn out and be used as sacc fodder (or heal of HP ladder down the game) and sometimes can even stall out the Magnezone's PP if its the scarf or the more rare/niche magnet rise leftovers set. Magnezone's dominant set is the specs set which on its own is a decent atker that is slow, for which there are better options. The inherent flaws of Magnezone to enable Latios already is a balancing on Latios and therefore is another argument against a ban for me.

The only reason I think why Latios would be considered ban worthy is bc it's hard to deal with when running an HO team as HO often lacks the many defensive switch-ins options I listed above for Latios as in against HO Specs Latios claims a Kill or scarf revenges any faster mon of your team. But I think that's just the in the nature of HO in general because Latios gets walled by many Pokemons that are used on many the Balance and Stall teams, which contrary to the believe of many in at release BDSP were weak in comparison to HO (when Latios was first suspected) but turned out to be false as the other playstyles are were viable to the point that stall seems to be the most dominant playstyle on high ladder once people figured out the meta.

The combination of the many checks/counters it has offensively and defensively and with possibly the only argument I see is that the playstyle of HO has a harder time fitting a defensive switch-in for it, will this be an easy do not ban for me.

Edit: Defensivley forgot to mention that Latios doesn't have the most easy time switchin into Pokemons it's supposed to have a free switch-in on. Any Rotom version (wash ofc most common) can just Volt-out into something that forces latios out, many u-turners that I haven't mentioned (gliscor is something that latios would love to click a button on for example but can't switch in on until scouted or predicted), Tangrowth Knock off/sleep powder(same for breloom sleep), Heatran gets magma stormed trapped+chipped often into revenge killing range of a scarfer/ice sharder. So even the defensive utility of latios is while decent is limited.

 

[Lalaya]

meow
disclaimer this is a personal opinion not the council's one etc.

Not gonna lie I don't get why people are still discussing the funny blue jet on the premise that it's *broken*. It's not, stop with that noise; it has counterplay in the form of two funny steels (Scizor and Jirachi), some random mons and Weavile, and most of them are used enough that you can find them reasonably in almost every game, if not every game. The point is that it's unhealthy (alongside Zam and even Weavile itself if you ask me), since it still warps teambuilding enough that you have to run the shittiest Scizor spread known to man, CALM MIND BLISSEY and generally find yourself with Weavile or a considerably strong scarfer in order to completely turn off the blue menace. Scizor is also very temporary as a check and always needs to Roost if he ever gets Meteor'd, other than he's susceptible to every kind to chip damage in existence - getting burned from the likes of Washer, Heatran or a random Scald user, constant Hazard damage, or Magnezone dropping 60% of its health out on arrival. Jirachi is even more temporary (unless you run WishTect), although it eats Latios blows better, and Blissey is forced to run Calm Mind in order to not lose against CMTios (which is still very underexplored if you ask me, and yes, it's genuinely on par with Specs at this point) because there's literally not a defensive presence that actually reliably deals with it (Clef takes 55/60ish from it, unless you run Calm Clef and lose by every other statbooster in the tier) except the funny steels mentioned above. While counterplay for Latios exists (No, Tyranitar isn't one, and it stops being one as soon as it takes damage; at least bait it using the Scarf jesus christ), Latios itself alongside some other very funny Pokémon I won't mention Weavile and to a certain extent Alakazam are holding the tier in a chokehold that it can't possibly recover by itself.

you know there's a reason why people stopped liking this tier, and it's not because stall

If you ask me I would have sent Weavile in the Shadow Realm before even Latios, but somehow the people think that a Pokémon that has literally 2 switchins in the tier and can rkill almost anyone is not even worthy of a suspect... okay...

 

[Moyashi]

Honestly the fact that Latias is so strong (and isn't just used as a discount Latios) makes this a very easy do not ban support from me.

This is not a do not ban argument. Latias being good is not relevant. And Latios only having two sets doesn't matter when those two sets have an immense strain on team building. Besides it isn't just two sets as it does have more (though admittedly less common) sets. The efficacy of its specs set demands you respect and if you guess wrong when predicting against it could be really bad.

it has great hard counters in the very common U-turn spamming Scizor Spdef and Blissey, which Latios can't touch at all. There are also lots of other great options that have a place in the meta that are less seen such as, SPdef Tyranitar(Under utilized imo) as Specs Surf coverage fails to come close to 2HKO it and can discourage the use of Psychic, Jirachi can setup rocks and u-turn treaten it and/or healing wish into a mon that can finish the off Latios not to mention that Magnezone fails to chip Jirachi efficently for Latios.

These playstyles needing to run one (or both) of Spdef Scizor and calm mind Blissey is a testiment to its pull on team building. And both of these sets are terrible due to being passive and exploitable. These are not great or even good sets. Spdef Ttar is weak and passive and extremely exploitable, plus Ttar isn't particularly great right now. Jirachi is chipped often and struggles to be a more active presence as it itself is somewhat passive with its Spdef sets.

and Zone doesn't guarantee a kill on Steels as Scizor and Jirachi, which it's supposed to check. Both can still U-turn out and be used as sacc fodder

Scizor takes way too much from specs thunderbolt to be used again later. It becomes unable to switch into Latios later. Jirachi has to constantly heal with wish which leaves it very exploitable. As for Latios' supposed lack of defensive utility, it has less than some mons but still has some naturally due to its alright bulk by offensive Mon standards. And it gets in fairly easily with pivot move support.

Anyways as for how I feel, my opinion has not changed for the better since the last suspect. It's unreasonably restrictive on team building, and many of its supposed checks are commonly chipped down over the course of a game. Because of its speed tier, many teams need one faster scarfers, at least two defensive checks (of which there are few). There are more offensive answers, but this doesn't change the fact that Latios has an unhealthy effect on team building and the tier.

Calm Mind sets gaining recognition also mean Blissey needs to run CM itself to not lose to it is one more level of restriction it places. Latios being so dangerous also inadvertently makes other Pokemon even better. Weavile in particular loves its presence forcing so many specially fat walls on teams as it means there are far less physical checks.

The tier simply isn't in a good state. Some people may argue that the tier is simply more offensive and you should adapt to that, but there is a difference between offensive and TOO offensive. There is a reason this tier isn't popular and well liked. Latios deserves the boot and hopefully the tier can make some kind of positive progress.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

It's been about a month or so since I've last played BDSP and I don't think I want to pick it up again unless this thing is banned. Latios obviously has counterplay and isn't as visibly bonkers and able to spiral out of control as Gengar was. I understand that, but I haven't seen very many convincing arguments to keep this thing in the tier that isn't just a slippery slope fallacy or just liking the aggressive disposition that it gives the tier (the latter of which I think is the fairest cause it at least gets at the subjectivity of things like this, but when considering how polarizing this tier is it's just... not a great way to look at things IMO). I don't think people want Latios banned because they want it to just be bulky balance like gen 8, I think they, and I'm gonna include myself in this one, want it banned because being pressured into using one of Scizor's most asinine sets or the big fat momentum sink that is Blissey is just not good for the tier.

I at least have a lot of fun with stuff like Jirachi and Weavile, but I want to be able to have MORE fun

 

[QuickBH]

you know there's a reason why people stopped liking this tier, and it's not because stall

The tier simply isn't in a good state. Some people may argue that the tier is simply more offensive and you should adapt to that, but there is a difference between offensive and TOO offensive. There is a reason this tier isn't popular and well liked. Latios deserves the boot and hopefully the tier can make some kind of positive progress.

The last stats literally say the opposite and BDSP SPL has seen successful sign ups, I don't care if you want Latios gone but side metas are never insanely popular and don't pretend to speak for everyone it's extremely pretentious. Anyways I've rebutted the rest of this in the past and at the end of the day if you're complaining about how "other mons in the meta suck Latios is just one of them" then either suspect test them first and come back when a Latios ban would have a significant impact on the meta, or just group them at once I'm not banning a Pokemon from a metagame I enjoy for the theoretical chance that it changes something 4 bans down the road assuming you ever even get to them.

 

[Lalaya]

The last stats literally say the opposite and BDSP SPL has seen successful sign ups, I don't care if you want Latios gone but side metas are never insanely popular and don't pretend to speak for everyone it's extremely pretentious.

(I literally compiled the survey results myself, not only the number of players dropped but the overall enjoyness and competitiveness dropped since the first one, other than reading a lot of comments like this, so it's not like I'm just talking out of my ass and I'd rather keep the discussion peaceful, ty)

then either suspect test them first and come back when a Latios ban would have a significant impact on the meta

Too bad we can't just go nuclear on whatever threat we want at a glance, especially after the survey results firmly locking Weavile and Alakazam down; it's true that we hold power, but we don't just misuse it and go against the general populace's opinion unless we have a *strong, clear reason* to do so; also, Latios' banworthiness shouldn't be judged based on what future impact would make on the metagame. We're judging Latios based on what it does right now, any what if scenario is completely outside the scope of this thread.

 

[clementinabroccolina]

The last stats literally say the opposite and BDSP SPL has seen successful sign ups, I don't care if you want Latios gone but side metas are never insanely popular and don't pretend to speak for everyone it's extremely pretentious. Anyways I've rebutted the rest of this in the past and at the end of the day if you're complaining about how "other mons in the meta suck Latios is just one of them" then either suspect test them first and come back when a Latios ban would have a significant impact on the meta, or just group them at once. It's also the same people arguing using the exact same arguments (admittedly on both ends) as they did literal months ago so conversing after this point feels like a giant waste of time.

I'm not speaking for everyone when I just... sum up what the crux of most of the arguments for banning Latios are and that I literally agree with them. I also don't think it's fair to call me pretentious as that just feels kind of mean-spirited and separate from the actual topic. When you say you've "rebutted the rest of this" have you considered that... maybe people just don't agree with you? A suspect test is always a subjective kind of thing and though some arguments will be more compelling to others, it feels weird to act like you're able to just... wrap up the discussion or even ban a group of mons when that isn't how things work. Latios is currently the most game-warping and unhealthy presence in the tier, and what may or may not sprout up in its place just can't be said right now because it's confounded with the fact that Latios literally exists. It's fine if you like the way the tier is going, and it's a fair point that this is just a side meta, but the fact that people have become more and more fed up is worrying.

 

[QuickBH]

(I literally compiled the survey results myself, not only the number of players dropped but the overall enjoyness and competitiveness dropped since the first one, other than reading a lot of comments like this, so it's not like I'm just talking out of my ass and I'd rather keep the discussion peaceful, ty)

A metagame is going to drop in participants when hype drops because the game itself was considered a massive disappointment by most of the people that own the game and they either went back to SS because it had all the new stuff or the new Legends Arceus so claiming that's the most likely reason people dropped is absurd. GSC OU is a relatively loved format but nobody plays it lol. Banning something will hype something up for 5 minutes until it stops becoming new and then they stop playing again. Also if your argument is that people had a 9 last time but metagame changes made it an 7/8 then, by your logic, the issue is that you made those changes not that you didn't do enough so bringing that up is rather silly.

Latios' banworthiness shouldn't be judged based on what future impact would make on the metagame. We're judging Latios based on what it does right now, any what if scenario is completely outside the scope of this thread.

Yeah and pretty much most people even on the pro-ban end agreed that Latios itself will not fix the issues they have with the game nor will it impact the metagame in a significant manner so why support it. Makes absolutely 0 sense to ban something but at this point it's best to just vote and move on this conversation is going nowhere.

 

[Eve]

Posting as Eve not the council

Yeah and pretty much most people even on the pro-ban end agreed that Latios itself will not fix the issues they have with the game nor will it impact the metagame in a significant manner so why support it. Makes absolutely 0 sense but at this point it's best to just vote and move on this conversation is going nowhere.

I genuinely have no clue which pro-ban people would agree with this. Latios is a massively centralizing force in the metagame- Scizor's usage is absolutely insane largely because of it (and yet Scizor isn't really even a safe answer against it when factoring in Magnezone or literally just a coverage move it can afford to run, with some decent luck), Jirachi's entire existence pretty much hinges on its ability to handle Latios because it doesn't really do anything else at all (and it's still comfortably OU), and any team without either of these or CM Blissey is basically required to have speed control methods with enough firepower to take it down (usually just Scarf Garchomp and Weavile) or to pray (e.g. have something like Clefable Heatran). And they still aren't exactly safe. These things will still be solid without Latios, but nowhere near as required, and having to have Scizor on a huge number of teams is exactly the main issue many people have with the current meta state.

Please don't ignore >60% of the playerbase again thank you

 

[BT89]

Latios is a very restrictive and unhealthy presence, saying this right off the bat. I don’t want to go into the other points everyone has battered down on us. Instead, I want to go in depth on how it is too good at enabling other extremely restrictive threats.

Let’s look at our Latios answers:

• SpDef Scizor
• Jirachi
• Blissey
• Revenge killers (Weavile)

Now, what is in common with all of these answers?

If you said they lost to Weavile, you would be correct! Weavile is another obscenely powerful (and arguably broken) breaker that really likes being able to so easily abuse the most common Latios switch-ins that are forced on to all teams.

Now, is this a Weavile issue or a Latios issue? While it may be more of a Weavile issue, Latios’ grip on the metagame has made every team need to run some whack stuff to check, all of which can be easily abused by team mates. This capability of being able to enable pretty much all offensive Pokemon makes its presence an unhealthy one!

Now, a key example of Latios’ presence being an unwelcome one is Scizor. Scizor is by far the most common Pokemon in the tier almost solely because of Latios (not saying it wouldn’t be used because of no Latios, just saying it would be far less used). It’s also one of the most exploitable Pokemon in the tier, since the majority of the things it is supposed to be checking are able to easily overwhelm and force it into even more abusable Roost loops. Now again, this is probably more of an issue with Scizor, but a Pokemon as heavily exploitable as Scizor having near 50% usage is a clear cut sign on Latios’ grip hold. Other examples include Calm Mind Blissey and Jirachi, two otherwise niche Pokemon that see regular usage because of their ability to check Latios. These Pokémon seeing such high usage almost solely for Latios leads to other insane breakers (mainly Weavile, but also stuff like Alakazam, Garchomp, etc.) becoming much more of a migraine to handle consistently.

In conclusion, Latios is too good at enabling other obscene offensive Pokemon due to its chokehold on team building, and a ban is more than welcome for the sake of the tiers development.

also can we suspect weavile next, thanks!

 

[DerpySuX]

lol

Ok so if we take a look at most of the mons people complain about being everywhere (scizor, Weavile mainly), we see that they mainly serve the purpose of “handling” Latios.
If these mons are seeing such insane usage in response to a specific threat, it’s reasonable to conclude that said threat is the problem, not the responses to it.
This is literally like complaining about Clefable being absolutely everywhere when Urshifu was still spamming wicked blow in swsh ou.
If we need to look at Weavile or Scizor in the future, then we will, but as it stands, Latios is the common denominator in these mons’ extreme usage, and as such, should be looked at first.

 

[KaenSoul]

Not gonna lie, after getting reqs for so many suspects in this tier i still dont get whats so broken about latios, would prefer to suspect zam or zone instead but whatever.
Like, the biggest problem with latios is magnezone being annoying and preventing scizor and jirachi from being able to switch in as much as they want while also abusing volt switch + sr to take way too much health from blissey and put a physical mon in the field, so yeah my problem is with zone, who also hurts skarmory viability allowing stuff like mamoswine to demolish teams, but all of that is only a problem for stall/balance.
For offensive teams is a bit different, but last (latios) suspect i explained why is not that big of an issue as choice sets dont want to get stuck on psychic/draco meteor only to become set up fodder for one of the waters or some other dangerous mon, while also having multiple good revenge killers like mamo, weavile, zam and scarfers like chomp.
And i would still use scizor on most of my teams after a latios ban because trying to check zam without scizor on every team is a nightmare.

 

[Moyashi]

Like, the biggest problem with latios is magnezone being annoying and preventing scizor and jirachi from being able to switch in as much as they want while also abusing volt switch + sr to take way too much health from blissey and put a physical mon in the field, so yeah my problem is with zone, who also hurts skarmory viability allowing stuff like mamoswine to demolish teams, but all of that is only a problem for stall/balance.

Even without Magnezone, Latios often puts Scizor into range of needing to roost often which means its extremely exploitable. The sets that Blissey and Jirachi run are similarly passive and that's the problem. To check it defensively people have to run weak passive sets.

And i would still use scizor on most of my teams after a latios ban because trying to check zam without scizor on every team is a nightmare.

One mon also being potentially broken doesn't mean Latios isn't unhealthy (which is the real problem) as you are being forced to run bad sets to check it. And its presence is also making a lot of other already dangerous mons even better.

 

[Megalobst]

Not just a responds but a comprehensive answer to also all thoughts i have on the matter

These playstyles needing to run one (or both) of Spdef Scizor and calm mind Blissey is a testiment to its pull on team building. And both of these sets are terrible due to being passive and exploitable. These are not great or even good sets. Spdef Ttar is weak and passive and extremely exploitable, plus Ttar isn't particularly great right now. Jirachi is chipped often and struggles to be a more active presence as it itself is somewhat passive with its Spdef sets.

Let’s look at our Latios answers:

• SpDef Scizor
• Jirachi
• Blissey
• Revenge killers (Weavile)

I have listed down various options with that are not Scizor or CM Blissey. Spdeft TTar which I have been using quite succesfully and is as it is a Free switch in the common Heatran + Latios (so imo nowhere near niche and is underrated), thought that might be a bit biased from me. More commonly seen is various sets jirachi sets that can twave/turn/wish on latios without much care in the world. Even the standard defensive set of Heatran can force or beat Latios 1v1 if it doesn't come in Surf/EQ and can take a hit from Latios to put get in an offensive revenge killer (priority/scarfers). Even Clefable can be adjusted to carry more spdef should the team demand a better spdef wall.

Speaking of Spdef TTar, it doesnt lose to weavile unless it carries the rare Brick Break, in which case if weavile starts using it more ttar could run Chopple and if the team is weak to weavile.
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Chople Berry Tyranitar: 214-252 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 153-181 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Anyways as for how I feel, my opinion has not changed for the better since the last suspect. It's unreasonably restrictive on team building, and many of its supposed checks are commonly chipped down over the course of a game. Because of its speed tier, many teams need one faster scarfers, at least two defensive checks (of which there are few). There are more offensive answers, but this doesn't change the fact that Latios has an unhealthy effect on team building and the tier.

I do not think Latios restricts teambuilding in anyway. It's probably the strongest Spatk wallbreaker/revenge with good coverage in the meta right now, but let's compare it to gengar, which had virtually no switch-ins to its stab+coverage. Latios on the other hand has checks and hard counters, and get's revenged easier as it doesn't have the priority immunity which gengar was able to use more due to lack of pursuit.

Teambuilding Stall: It is VERY likely that without much thought about Latios a check to it is found.
Teambuilding Balance: Can fit in a Spdef answer somewhat naturally, though not always the case. But likely it is very likely to carry atleast 1 offensive check to it by means common scarfers or priority users.
Teambuilding Hyper Offense: This is where latios is most restrictive to teambuilding. But this is just the nature of HO, trading blows(pokemons) and overwhelm.

From what I understand of restrictive teambuilding are mons that:
1) A must have answer on any team (this is potentially a yes for latios as its a treat to be accounted for)
2) Naturally building a team doesn't lead to having an answer (natural teambuilding leads either scarfers or defensive backbones that check latios)
3) Mon doesn't need much setup or support to wall/break teams appart (Latios needs zone to break steel types consistently, scarf doesn't break teams, specs get's revenged by most scarfer users, CM requires setup and doesn't guarentee you a win)
4) Mon is easily revengable: A mon can break teams but if it's revengable its checkable and latios is with the combination of scarf and priority ice shard, bp and Espeed (choice band dnite/lucario and latios.

If we use the gengar Criteria Latios falls way short on it:
1) Gengar needed a must have check
2) Natural teambuilding didnt lead to natural checks (Specific CM blissey sets rose up, SPdef ttar chopple for focus miss coverage, UU and lower mons like drapion were used tried as checks).
3) Gengar could sub plot and win on the spot, specs had no switchins after rocks, scarf still hits hard and is still hard to switch into, gengar had many sets that were hard(er) to switch into that latios and each set covered an answer that people had for gengar.
4) Theoretically Gengar was revengable but it was very hard in practice. Unlike latios you needed to have a very fast scarfer that outspeed cuz common prioirity gengar has a immunity to priority as Mach Punch and Espeed meaning that even after chip it was hard to KO whereas even tho latios carries resist to mach after a certain amount of chip it would fall.

Also Scizor and Blissey aren't even mandatory on many teams but just happens to be so common that many teams naturally check latios.

Scizor takes way too much from specs thunderbolt to be used again later. It becomes unable to switch into Latios later. Jirachi has to constantly heal with wish which leaves it very exploitable.

Scizor can survive a hit from Zone, but its also true that after taking a hit from specs tbolt it doesnt switch in onto Latios anymore. However, I have seen plenty of scenarios (not just from myself, but from various people's replays), where Scizor gets a roost of after getting a free switch and getting a roost off(by either a good double or a teammate sacrifice which is worth the switch to scizor).

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 202-238 (58.8 - 69.3%)

The range of 41,2% to 30.7% isn't alot of hp, but is enough for scizor to get in a switch on slower mon's it treatens such as clef without flamethrower. Like Gengar with gengar theoretically he gets revenged after locking into a specs/scarf move, but all he needed was a switch to come back later. Magnezone not having access to HP Fire allows scizor to remain a potential treat keep checking Latios.


I do not see the need to ban Latios at all besides experimenting with the meta. Banning Latios could mean potentially Salamence rise to OU (probably not due to dnite). But on the defensive side, do i see some mons rise up because latios is gone? No, as I mentioned teams aside from HO are almost always naturally build in a way that have a counter/check for almost any latios set (with exception of the more rarer but slower CM set)`and if neccessary one could go out of his way to search for hard checks like Spdef Ttar

 

[KaenSoul]

Even without Magnezone, Latios often puts Scizor into range of needing to roost often which means its extremely exploitable. The sets that Blissey and Jirachi run are similarly passive and that's the problem. To check it defensively people have to run weak passive sets.

For Latios to beat Scizor by itself is required some good prediction and/or luck, and latios is going to either end choice locked in a non-stab move or not dealing enough damage to put scizor in a bad position, without zone putting pressure the scizor player should have the advantage.
Blissey is going to be passive with any set and most of the time you dont even have to use niche stuff like cm as twave is usually enough to keep latios under control, specially if you run other checks like heatran, tyranitar, jirachi, clefable, magnezone, etc. that will have an easy time handling a paralyzed latios after Blissey revealed the set.
Im not a big fan of Jirachi, but it does his job just fine, it will either paralyze Latios or uturn away into something dangerous like Weavile.

One mon also being potentially broken doesn't mean Latios isn't unhealthy (which is the real problem) as you are being forced to run bad sets to check it. And its presence is also making a lot of other already dangerous mons even better.

I didnt say that.
What i said is that zam is the one forcing me to run scizor, not latios.

 

[BT89]

Even the standard defensive set of Heatran can force or beat Latios 1v1 if it doesn't come in Surf/EQ and can take a hit from Latios to put get in an offensive revenge killer (priority/scarfers). Even Clefable can be adjusted to carry more spdef should the team demand a better spdef wall.

The main reason why I did not mention Heatran is that Heatran is just straight up not a good answer. It can barely do anything in return, and even if the Latios lacks Surf/EQ, Draco Meteor and Thunderbolt still chunk it pretty decently.

Clefable takes like 45 from Specs Psychic, regardless of investment.

Also, the moment TTar takes any chip damage, it is a bad check to everything.

I do not think Latios restricts teambuilding in anyway.

This is just blatantly false. Latios’ existence is quite literally the sole reason why some Pokemon/sets are ran at all. Calm Mind Blissey and Jirachi are emblematic of this, as otherwise, they are pretty much useless in this metagame. Scizor is somewhat emblematic of this as well, seeing as it would 100% not be as ubiquitous without Latios' presence.

From what I understand of restrictive teambuilding are mons that:
1) A must have answer on any team (this is potentially a yes for latios as its a treat to be accounted for)
2) Naturally building a team doesn't lead to having an answer (natural teambuilding leads either scarfers or defensive backbones that check latios)
3) Mon doesn't need much setup or support to wall/break teams appart (Latios needs zone to break steel types consistently, scarf doesn't break teams, specs get's revenged by most scarfer users, CM requires setup and doesn't guarentee you a win)
4) Mon is easily revengable: A mon can break teams but if it's revengable its checkable and latios is with the combination of scarf and priority ice shard, bp and Espeed (choice band dnite/lucario and latios.

1. Definitely
2. Natural teambuilding also often ends up with the Latios check being rather forced onto a team and flimsy against the rest of the metagame.
3. Scarf Latios isn't supposed to break? It's not a good set, but huh? Also, Latios doesn't require Magnezone, there are a good amount of Magless Latios teams that have seen great success.
4. Latios lives all of the aforementioned priority moves from full and can OHKO back.

Like, the biggest problem with latios is magnezone being annoying and preventing scizor and jirachi from being able to switch in as much as they want while also abusing volt switch + sr to take way too much health from blissey and put a physical mon in the field, so yeah my problem is with zone, who also hurts skarmory viability allowing stuff like mamoswine to demolish teams, but all of that is only a problem for stall/balance.

Latios has proven that even without Magnezone, it is a pressing issue. There are a whole ton of Latios teams without Magnezone that still exploit its unhealthy factors, namely its ability to enable other broken Pokemon with plain ease. Sure, Magnezone is an ideal partner, but it isn't a mandatory one.

 

[nimzowitsch]

Update: I just got reqs, and my evaluation of Latios remains a lean towards ban. Now, I don't think Latios is outright broken to the degree Gengar was. Actual counters to it do exist. I do however think it is perhaps unhealthy. As many here have mentioned, Scizor really shouldn't be forced to run a full SpDef spread, and the massive amount of SpDef Scizors I encountered on the ladder is a sign of an unhealthy metagame. I understand that BDSP OU is a metagame starved of defensive options compared to the many powerful breakers in the tier. Latios is not the only culprit behind the current state of the meta, but I do think banning Latios would at least alleviate some of the strain in the teambuilder. It has been mentioned by others that Latios enables other strong breakers such as Weavile, and thus banning Latios would likely make it easier to deal with the other strong offensive options.

Maybe a hot take but I actually think the Specs set is a bit overrated. 3 attacks+Roost LO/Soul Dew or 4 attacks LO Latios is a menace against any team without a SpDef Scizor or Blissey since one of the best ways to deal with Latios is to exploit the choice lock. I played exclusively Scizorless HO during my run, and playing against non-choiced Latios felt like dancing on a knife's edge where I needed to get many predictions correct in a row to not lose.