Resource National Dex Viability Rankings v2

[Victini4ssbu]

Alright, I have a nomination to make, and no pannuracotta, I won't nom kart and ash-gren to S even though I think they are top of A+ (and omicorio jesus christ stop asking me to make vr noms for you even though I agree with them, like dude, I have a life you know)

So, I know this may sound biased but hear me out, Victini from B+ to A-

The main reason I think this is because how few answers there are to banded victini and even scarf victini. There is really only one counter I can think of to scarf victini and that is bulky heatran UNTIL it is in range of a bolt strike and scarf bolt strike does a minimum of 29.2% to a max hp 0 def tran.

Calcs: 252 Atk Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 113-133 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 169-199 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Spdef Toxapex doesn't work as a counter because scarf bolt strike does a minimum of 53.9% and if it's banded,
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 246-290 (80.9 - 95.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yeah, pex is not safe.

Scarf Calc: 252 Atk Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 164-194 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

So yeah, Victini may be rocks weak but with all the good foggers in the tier like, corv, bulky kart, utility fini, and zapdos, I would say it's not too hard to have a defogger or two on your team and victini has good bulk compared to other wallbreakers and speed control making it a pain to remove without hazards and pursuit trapping which victini also struggles with but yet again, not all teams have pursuit trapping. Then for other checks like lando-t and garchomp, garchomp is probably the best answer alongside heatran due to it taking only about 50% from a banded v-create and being immune to bolt strike and then for lando-t, -1 252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 178-210 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, yeah.

So, to summarize this all up, basically no team is scarf victini or even banded victini safe. I also haven't even talked about it on sun, and it's (pretty bad) z-celebrate set (and boots but idk anything about it). So yeah, Victini from B+ to A-.

 

[Avery]

i was discussing this in the vr channel and i think its best for transparency's sake that i post it here as well, this is a quick lil post so ill edit replays in later

-> C

basically, the recent decline in ttar usage is pretty good for blace, it preys on most teams since they dont run a solid ghost resist. teams with ghost resist hydreigon (it is 2hkod) lose to blace, the only mons it really fears in preview are weavile because it can come in on ur shadow ball and pursuit you and ttar obviously, but against some of the faster paced offenses / bulky balances it does kinda put in a lot of work

ive been using this set -
Blacephalon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Overheat
- Knock Off

specs knock is kinda better than trick since tricking away ur specs means u lose the big breaking power you really need with blace, plus knocking chansey means its 2hkod by fire blast after rocks and thats a pretty clean calc imo

other relevant calcs -
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 156+ SpD Toxapex: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 8 HP / 28 SpD Hydreigon: 159-188 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 387-456 (98.2 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 208-246 (64.3 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 169-199 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Chansey: 286-337 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock - this is without eviolite since u knocked it off

yeah this thing kinda slaps

e - heres 2
[Gen 8] National Dex replay: That_boi_god vs. Ayvery...! - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
[Gen 8] National Dex replay: Ayvery...! vs. DukeOfKings - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)

 

[Kyo]

i was discussing this in the vr channel and i think its best for transparency's sake that i post it here as well, this is a quick lil post so ill edit replays in later

-> C

basically, the recent decline in ttar usage is pretty good for blace, it preys on most teams since they dont run a solid ghost resist. teams with ghost resist hydreigon (it is 2hkod) lose to blace, the only mons it really fears in preview are weavile because it can come in on ur shadow ball and pursuit you and ttar obviously, but against some of the faster paced offenses / bulky balances it does kinda put in a lot of work

ive been using this set -
Blacephalon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Overheat
- Knock Off

Another cool way of using Blace is with a combination of a specs and speed boosting set.

Blacephalon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 216 HP / 20 Def / 20 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Knock Off
- Shadow Ball
- Overheat

This set trades some of Blacephalon's power to become a dangerous cleaner vs balance and offense teams. Similar to the CM + Z move set, these EVs boost Blacephalon's speed instead of sp att when it achieves a KO. Without full sp att investment, this set is only 14.5% weaker than regular specs Blacephalon. In exchange, it becomes a much better sweeper and is no longer susceptible to revenge trapping by Weavile. The EVs that can't be invested in sp att are not completely wasted as this set appreciates the added bulk to eat priority hits. Blacephalon happens to resist a lot of relevant priority like grassy glide, ice shard, and bullet punch but suffers from incredible frailty. This speed boosting set benefits from not taking as much damage from these moves which threaten to end its sweep. Most notably, the given EVs allow Blacephalon to no longer be KO'd by banded Rillaboom's grassy glide after one turn of stealth rocks.

252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 216 HP / 20 Def Blacephalon in Grassy Terrain: 191-225 (63.4 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

This set is not necessarily superior to a regular specs set but it does have some unique benefits, especially for a player who has already commited their z move slot to another team member but wants a mon with both sweeping potential and immediate power. I fully agree with Blacephalon going to C rank as it seems like a solid pick in a meta with declining Ttar usage.

 

[adem]

bom dia friends, I am here to make the nom we have all been waiting for !

Mega Camerupt : UR > C



Camerupt-Mega @ Cameruptite
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 100 HP / 252 SpA / 156 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Toxic / Stealth Rocks / Yawn / Rock Slide / Natures Power / Substitute / RestTalk
- Another from the above

Its Niche -

- Being a great Koko check short term, and the one the exerts the most offensive pressure:

Important Calcs

Specs Koko
]252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 76-90 (24.8 - 29.4%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 76-90 (24.8 - 29.4%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 576-678 (204.9 - 241.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. Camerupt-Mega: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Boots / Shuca / Z Move
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 51-60 (16.6 - 19.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Tapu Koko Twinkle Tackle (160 BP) vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 151-178 (49.3 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

All of these calcs are vastly changed with the addition of Grassy Terrain, and with the rise of Tapu Bulu lately, an amazing partner with this mon, it increases its longetivity vastly.

- Being the best rocker in the tier (No foggers can successfully come in one it and threaten it out at full)

Important Calcs

Gliscor
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 196 SpD Gliscor: 280-330 (79.5 - 93.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Flamethrower vs. 244 HP / 196 SpD Gliscor: 229-270 (65 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 206-246 (67.3 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tapu Fini
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 64+ SpD Tapu Fini: 157-186 (45.6 - 54%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

-Being a Electric Immune (Volt Blocker).

-Extremely strong breaker than has a few checks, and doesnt need much support at all to break those checks.

-Being one of the few Ground-types that work extremely well on Grass Spam archtypes, and one of the even fewer offensive grounds.

Why not use Heatran? -

- Being a ground is very big boon for Camel, as it fills that much needed roles on teams

- Breaks through its checks much easier :

Important Calcs

Gastrodon
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 186-220 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 186-220 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and toxic damage

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 186-220 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 186-220 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

Garchomp
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 261-307 (73.1 - 85.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

Gliscor
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Flamethrower vs. 244 HP / 196 SpD Gliscor: 229-270 (65 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

Fini
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 64+ SpD Tapu Fini: 157-186 (45.6 - 54%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Kommo-O
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Kommo-o: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

Slowking
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Slowking: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after toxic damage

-Much more immediate, consistent damage:

Important Calcs

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 159-187 (44.5 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 130-153 (36.4 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252+ SpA Heatran Inferno Overdrive (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 185-218 (51.8 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Cals just to show power difference^

-Doesnt take a Z Move slot (Of course Heatran can run different Z’s to hit its different checks harder, but then it has to drop one of its support moves ( Rocks / Toxic / Taunt ) which means that it still struggles to get past its other checks, whilst Camerupt generally just needs just its STABs + Toxic / Pursuit to nail all its checks comfortably, and can reliably run any other support move in the last slot.

-Deals with other stuff that Heatran doesnt, sets a niche as a different defensive prescence, ie Koko, Char Y, Zapdos, Body Press Skarm/Corv are some examples.

Why is it finally good now?
-Takes advantage of common ClefCorvPex defensive cores, forcing extreme pressure on those team cores.

-Takes advantage of Slowking being on the decline, and more waters that it threaten consistently.

-Takes advantage of the prominence of Grasses and Birds due to a response to Mega Chomp rising.

-Takes advantage of Tapu Bulu rising to set itself aside a strong niche, abusing the Earthquake damage reduction, the strong grass resist and the extra recovery, increasing its longetivity vastly.

Common Partners / Teams that it fits on?

Some example of GrassSpam structures it fits on, with Ash Gren being a common partner in 4/5 of them, due to it appreciating bulky waters being pressured for it + setting spikes wears down their shared checks. Tapu Bulu / Rillaboom are also common partners, due to camel abusing the Earthquake damage reduction, the strong grass resist and the extra recovery, increasing its longetivity vastly. Weavile is also a solid partner, removing leftovers recovery from Camels normal checks, letting it break through them much easier, also pursuit trapping Mega Camels best checks in Mega Latias and Slowking, freeing camel to not have to run Toxic. Electric Z reuniclus is also a great partner due to appreciating camel breaking holes in teams, and pressuring Gastrodon for it. Tapu Koko also appreciates Camel pressuring grounds and grasses, and it pressures bulky waters for it in return. (Ill edit the post with Averys team if they gge me permission to show it, quite different

​

Some replays showcasing its potential:

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1372015233-9qorlfvwgd57avnxh401x20zyg1wjocpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1372091404-yqapbxtmuxep00f3d7o2p3mju3qwqa0pw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1386273665-06gy0anhk47oti1xo1e7v2qrebsjkd0pw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1386343144-kd4ixrvij8ajrjh7edu7s9ijxmk6noppw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1386882762-has7shz7whsfkai21t33ds3k0jxkzrepw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1387770631

Anyways, that concludes this nom, a few miscellaneous noms below:

Rises
C > B-
C > B-
C > B-
C > B
B- > B
B- > B
B > B+
B > B+
B+ > A-
B+ > A-
A- > A
A+ > S- / S
A+ > S- / S

Drops
A > A-
A > A-
A- > B+
B+ > B
B+ > B
B+ > B
B+>B
B > B-
C > UR

​

 

[Jho]

Hey there gamers - while we plan to do a full VR slate in the near future, we thought it was important to get Blaziken on the viability rankings as an interim until a full vote happens. We each voted and decided it will end up in B- for the time being! What are your thoughts on Blaziken's position?

Look forward to a full slate soon!

 

[pannu]

blaziken is a dogshit mon, it doesnt add anything to the tier, calling it as viable as Glowking, Shuckle, or Urshi-RS is frankly a joke. drop it to C or UR it

wholelottacotta vr noms

-> S

Ever since its unban, Greninja has been one of the most meta defining pokemon in the natdex tier, and it affects how you build a team in the tier. It forces you to run a counter, or multiple checks, on every team built in this tier, and is one of the premier things you think of when checking off a mental "to check list" when building, cores such as ClefPex, KokoFerro or DreiPex are mostly a thing because they check Greninja so well, and mons like Tapu Fini, Blissey, or Kommo-o have their viability boosted because of their ability to check Greninja, there are plenty of pokemon considered worse too because of gren, the Slowtwins are as unpopular as ever because they are water types that dont check Gren, Hyper Offense has to run Rillaboom or Mega Gyarados to handle greninja. Overall i think that Ash Greninja has an incredibly restrictive hold on the metagame.

other noms i believe should happen but i wont be as expansive about:

-> S

this mon is broken lol suspect it

and -> A+

these two and mmaw are arguably the top 3 megas in the tier rn, i dont see why they shouldn't be a+ when they have such amazing offensive potential and defensive utility respectively

-> A+

we have once again copied ssou and found out that sd weavile is broken, as such it should raise

and -> A

Hydreigon soft checks a lot of common mons in the tier rn aswell as being amazing against fat, you can slap a hydreigon on any team that isn't an extreme and it'll be viable. Meanwhile, Serperiors screens setter set is incredibly potent on HO, and with glare support its one of the best support mons on offense.

-> B+

this post may also get edited to feature a hippo to C nom

 

[tf]

​

I think blaziken should be ranked C. It pressures a lot the builder, because it's a sort of "volcarona+item": it has a huge moovepool, which allows it to destroy every team, with notably thunder punch for tapu fini, hp ice for landorus-t, earthquake for toxapex... and can be played with a Z or a life orb, to beat other things, like latias mega with the normalium z.
Ingame, because of its lack of staying power, blaziken can't sweep an entire team, it will die after 2 flare blitz. It's also revenge killed by a lot of priorities (fake out mlop, water shuriken ashgren...). Finally, even if it has a really good movepool, blaziken will rarely have the perfect set, because the teams get naturally 1 or 2 blazi check/counter

​

I agree with pannuracotta when he says this mon is broken, and deserves the S Rank. It can run a lot of sets: a choice scarf to revenge kill, a choice band to break, a Z to break a specific thing (fightinium z for corviknight, normalium for zapdos...), a bulky set with synthesis or the protective pads. I think, the broken thing with it is its ability to beat a specific mon, with a Z Move, which will allow to another mon to pressure a lot. Fightinium Z+Tapu lele/Mawile Mega for Corvi/Skarmory/ScizorMega, Normalium Z/Darkinium Z+Rillaboom for Zapdos (and Corvi)

 

[LORD SAGIS]

UR > C

Set

Hippowdon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Atk / 248 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Slack Off
- Toxic / Whirlwind / Ice Fang

I'm not sure why Hippowdon is unranked. Like sure Corviknight "can" pressure stall Stealth Rock but Hippowdon is a excellent partner for Corvi because its the sturdiest electric immunity in the tier. If Hippo lays down hazards and Corvi comes in on it, then Hippo can switch into its own Corviknight and thus the whole pressure stall strategy doesn't work. If the Corvi chooses to to double out when the other one comes in then Hippo's rocks are now on the field thus successfully doing its job.

Hippowdon is very good electric counter as Tapu Koko has to U-turn to do anything to it and Zeraora needs T-spikes to have even a chance to break through it. With lots of electric weak pokemon like Toxapex and Tapu Fini it makes for a somewhat niche option because unlike the other grounds it doesn't have a 4x weakness making a lot harder to lure.

This was a roomtour final and I played kind of messy around the first half but it at least gives a idea of how Hippowdon is not useless when theres a Corvi.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1374944662

UR > C

Set

Thundurus (M) @ Fightinium Z / Electrium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Cannot believe this thing didn't get on the VR last time. Naturally outspeeding Kartana is a very important thing for HO to have and since Cinderace left that void has been left blank and Thundurus-I (along with Serperior) have been doing quite good in it. Fightinium can muscle past Blissey and Gastrodon after a boost but Electrium helps it break through Tapu Koko and Slowking-G. Thundurus-I can actually beat Mega Latias if it NPs on the switch because its faster, this is something Thundurus-T can't do.

This replay is from my Majors run and it shows its speed coming in handy when dealing with Kartana.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nationaldex-559999
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1386551077-sqd3u7ae7pm5z2aasuukdp4rtts6krwpw Mollymt1 got success out of a different set as well.

I would try and nom Mega Aerodactyl but when I mentioned it for some reason it instantly became a discussion about it being a Rock thats walled by Zapdos for some reason so I will leave that until another day.

 

[low ladder Erti]

Hey Peeps! Today I'm going to be focusing on Mega Venusaur.

This mons important niche is Thick Fat, because of that it makes this Mon ten times better, and I think C tier is a little too small for this Mon!
What it does:

Victini is a very strong powerhouse especially with its V-create, u-turn etc, but with Mvenu you can 1v1 it.

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 164-194 (45 - 53.2%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO
Yeah, it's not a switch in but in a 1v1 situation and if Tini swapped in on my Venu, I'm beating it.

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 186-222 (51 - 60.9%) -- approx. 2HKO Again, it's not a big check but again it can't 1v1. It's a very good soft check with leech + synthesis.

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega in Sun: 230-272 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO It's no s/i but it can still wall sun with synthesis.

0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 110-132 (30.2 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage

In the end this mon can beat alot of mons in a 1v1 situation but some s/i's are common grasses like rillaboom, serp, and bulu.

It also is the best mmawile check!
"Why not just use Amoongus?"
Half of the mons I'm 1v1ing beats amoongus in a heartbeat, it does have spore/regen, etc. But then I don't beat half of the mons I want to wall.
Thank you for listening to my ted talk.
(I will add replays when I get them)​

 

[NuttyRabbit]

Just gonna share a few thoughts + a nom or two

Thoughts on Blaziken

-> B- : Yeah I agree with this. It's not complete ass and can work on more offensive builds but it just struggles vs a ton of stuff whether it's the Banded set or SD or even Mixed. Reminds me of Zard-X in a way, with both of them being attack+speed boosting Fire types with serious coverage/set up ability issues. Not quite bad enough to be in C but sadly way too flawed to be in B or above.


Tapu Fini

-> A+ : I've been sitting on this nom for weeks and frankly, the more I've thought about it the better this thing is. I could talk about how it's the 2nd best bulky Water in the tier, second best defogger, one of the most consistent and reliable Tran/Gren checks, the insane amount of utility Misty Terrain provides, how Taunt/Knock lets it make an insane amount of progress vs most builds, but this is all shit that we know about it already so idt it's necessary to go over that again. Instead what I want to talk about is how Fini's other sets have been quickly rising in both usage and viability and how they utterly abuse the meta right now.

CM Fini



Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 192 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Scald
- Taunt

CM Fini is such an underprepped for wincon right now, not only retaining all the excellent defensive utility Fini already has, but using that to turn it into a wincon that can easily spiral out of control if your opponent doesn't have Gastrodon/Ferro/Amoonguss (the latter two of whom need Whip/Clear Smog to actually win long term because otherwise they just lose), and it is also a way to make Fini last even longer (because Tapu Fini already lasts a deceptively long time thanks to its ability to force progress/switches like nothing else and its status immunity is incredible rn).

Trapper Fini

:Tapu Fini

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 12 SpA / 56 SpD / 192 Spe
Calm Nature
- Whirlpool
- Moonblast
- Nature Madness
- Taunt

This is the set that I think that, even if the other sets didn't exist, could push Fini to A+ on its own. Trapper Fini is probably the single most consistent trapper in the tier next to goddamn Magnezone, being able to not only trap literally everything trapper Tran can (sans Grasses, which never come in on Tran anyways), but also being able to trap Heatran itself, which just about nothing else in the tier can do. Not only that, but thanks to Whirlpool+Nature's, it has access to a more reliable (and longterm owing to Whirlpool's far greater PP than Magma) and efficient method of trapping, meaning that this set doesn't have to worry about getting too chipped to function after a single trap like Tran can. This thing pairs extremely well with just about anything that wants Bliss/Clef/Pex/Tran/almost any defensive mon gone. Also keep in mind that on top of its trapping role it still fulfills all of the defensive functions you'd use Fini for (outside of Defog but it's not like you're not pairing this with a Corv anyways)

Scarf Fini



Tapu Fini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 192 HP / 92 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Moonblast
- Hydro Pump
- Trick

Scarf Fini is probably the most niche Fini set, but it serves excellently on teams that need to compress speed control/Tran check/Ash Gren check/Defog into one slot while also providing a way to utterly ruin fat builds thanks to Trick. This set works incredibly on more offensive BOs and offenses in general that can struggle to really compress those roles into even 2 slots, let alone 1.

Now you could argue "Oh Fini can run a bunch of viable sets, how does that make it A+?" which is a fair argument to make, but consider that every one of these sets, even Scarf, is not only extremely splashable, but all of them can be outright interchanged with each other depending on the build, lending it a level of sheer unpredictability on par with some of the best in A+. You could be trying to force pressure on it with your Tran as it Defogs only to have it Hydro Pumped/Whirlpooled and suddenly you're out a Tran, or you could be trying to chip it into range of a Gren only to have it start Calm Minding and flipping the game on its head. While yes you could scout the non-Defog sets by looking at the team structure, that A: isn't always consistent, and B: still means you could easily be playing around say a potential CM Fini only to get trapped or vice versa.

Even going beyond the sets and going beyond what I described in the opening, it also serves as an excellent check and partner to the rising SD Weavile, a surprisingly annoying Pokemon vs the increasinhly diversifying HO builds, and absolutely loves that certain Pokemon like Rillaboom and Ferrothorn are trending downwards.

A mon that can run a plethora of incredibly viable, splashable sets that match up extremely well vs the metagame while taking advantage of metagame trends to this degree is more than worthy of A+ in my eyes, and that describes Tapu Fini right now to a T

Other Noms I Agree With

Rises

-> S/S- : I've been telling y'all this thing's top 3. If it's not S alongside Lando then it should be S- to show that this thing is better than almost everything in A+ besides maybe Heatran, who frankly also fits into the S/S- category

-> S/S- : Tran counters don't exist. This thing's stupid good rn and is also top 3 (Imo top 3 is Lando>Clef>Tran) and better than p much anything in A+. Like Clef, if it's not S alongside Lando it should be S- to show that it and Clef are better than p much everything in A+

-> A+ : Hey SD Weavile is broken as shit who knew?

-> A+ : Second or third best mega in the tier. Breaks the fuck out of everything do I need to say more?

-> A+ : Also second or third best mega in the tier (switches with Chomp depending on the day). This thing's really good again and CM PsySphere and BoltBeam are disgusting to deal with.

-> A : This thing is so good right now how is it still A-

-> A : One of the most flexible mons on HO and most teams deal with it by praying they don't run into the wrong item/move combination.

-> B+ : Spikes set is solid rn and even bulkier sets are rlly nice if u wanna role compress a ton of stuff. Don't use HO lead though it's actually not that good

-> B : Hey this thing's actually pretty nice right now. Offensively checks a good amount of the meta and is decently splashable on faster BO/Offense

-> B or even higher : Why is this in B-? It checks a ridiculous amount of meta and unlike the other slowtwins it gives almost nothing a free in depending on what you're running. This thing's an utter nightmare for Balance/Bulkier BO builds to deal with too and those are rlly good right now. Honestly could see this rising to B+ if not this slate then the next one it's just that solid rn.

-> C : I've been saying this mon's good for literal months now and that opinion hasn't changed a bit. Stupid good role compression for certain builds and being able to beat pretty much every fogger in the tier is utterly bugnuts. Lowkey the best Weavile partner too

-> C : Yeah fine this thing's actually decent.

-> C : This thing's also pretty good. Can't deny that beautiful speed tier

Drops

-> B+ : Bulky Waters that require an additional hard Gren check+ get taken advantage of by almost any offensive mon are a hard sell nowadays, and they're an even harder sell now thanks to people both learning how to play around FS and the fact that said FS's are extremely weak compared to Glowking. Teleport still good but it ain't enough to save them from a drop

- > A- : It's still good just not as good as it once was thanks to Tang/Amoong being good, Zap slowly coming back into the picture (and creeping Rilla), and HOs finding out that Serp is the better Grass on the archetype.

-> UR : I ain't a stall person but if R8 says it's bad it's bad

 

[Zobirisking]

In my opinion, Blaziken is pretty good here and deserves to be at B+.

I am going to focus on the Swords Dance set and on the Choise Band set. (https://pokepast.es/f9ffae6e8c3b3059)

•The Swords Dance set is very good, because it can kill the most "answers" to Blaziken with a little bit support like Future Sigh or the right Z move. It isn't that difficult to set up with it if it has momentum. It is almost impossible to outspeed a +1 Blaziken and it is very difficult to tank it's moves if it is on +2 or +1 attack. Here are some calcs:

+1 252 Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 301-355 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Blaziken Gigavolt Havoc (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 306-362 (100.6 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Blaziken Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp-Mega: 328-387 (91.8 - 108.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

•The other set, which I like a little bit more, is the Choise Band set. This set hits extremely hard and has almost no counters with Future Sigh support.
Toxapex for example dies to Thunder Punch + Future Sigh.

252 Atk Choice Band Blaziken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 124-148 (40.7 - 48.6%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 192-228 (63.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

But Blaziken can also use U-Turn and bring in Tyranitar or Weavile and trap Slowbro or Mega Latias for example.

Blaziken is definetly not broken, but you need to be carefully if you see this Pokemon, so it really shouldn't be B- because it doesn't suck.

 

[LightNox1]

So I'm not the most experienced player in the world but I'm gonna give my thoughts on Blaziken and why I think it fits nicely into b-
So I'll be talking about two sets first up is the Firium Z set which is this https://pokepast.es/a0a14eb7dc064e71 . The main thing about this set is its ability to muscle through alot of its checks and counters hence why it only has its STABS since Z Fire nukes alot of the things that other coverage moves hit so that's why you use Adamant on this set and since at +1 you don't outspeed stuff like Tapu Koko and Ash-Greninja when it evolves so that's why you run protect on this set but this set is only usable on sun teams since without the sun up it can't muscle through its checks and counters like its supposed to.

The next set I'm going to talk about is the Normalium Z set which is this https://pokepast.es/60cbcdc12183c8c3 . So in this set you run double edge which gets boosted by the Z move and helps Blaziken take down a lot things that would usually normally check it like Tapu Fini and Mega Latias and helps take down mons like Lando-T with some chip. In this set you run jolly since you can't fit protect and you don't want your sweep to be cut short by Tapu Koko since with adamant at +1 speed you don't outspeed it.

Now I will talk about the negatives: One of the main problems with Blaziken is how much it needs chip to break through checks like Lando-T and Slowbro and the fact that it needs rocks up to break through checks like Mega Latias.
Now i will be talking about another big weakness of Blaziken and that is how common its sweep can be cut short because of priority like Rillaboom's Grassy Glide or Greninja's Water Shuriken
Now I will be talking about Blaziken's biggest weakness and that is how hard it is to set up with it because alot of things that it would like to set up on like Ferrothorn have a way to punish it like how Ferrothorn alot of the times carries Thunder Wave and that would stop Blaziken from sweeping

Calcs Time:
+1 252 Atk Blaziken Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Landorus-Therian: 227-268 (59.5 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Blaziken Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 333-392 (91.4 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Blaziken Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 267-315 (77.6 - 91.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Blaziken Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 346-408 (100.5 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega in Sun: 411-483 (112.9 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Blaziken Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Landorus-Therian: 373-441 (97.9 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini in Sun: 428-504 (124.4 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 252-306 (83.7 - 101.6%) -- approx. 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blaziken in Grassy Terrain: 158-186 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

 

[Zeusen]

It's been ages since I touched Pokemon. I am here to make some nominations, and then to go into eternal slumber until Gen 9.

UR > C:

Set

Manectric-Mega @ Manectite
Ability: Lightning Rod
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Mega Manectric is a Pokemon with Electric/Fire/Ice coverage and 135 Speed and Special Attack. Not much more to say about its profile. Manectric deserves a spot on the VR because of its prowess against offensive teams, and bulky offense teams in the mid-late game. It is NOT a worse Tapu Koko because it has fire coverage; with Tapu Koko it can be annoying to not be able to get past bulky grass types like Ferrothorn and Tapu Bulu without relying on pivoting to a teammate. However, it is not a better Tapu Koko. It takes up a Mega Stone, and having only one type makes facing Tyranitar/Clefable/Toxapex teams really hard. Despite these downsides, it should be at least C on the VR.

UR > C:

Set

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 220 HP / 220 SpD / 68 Spe
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Knock Off
- Earth Power

Yes, Dracovish is banned. Seismitoad is basically a worse Tapu Fini: it cannot check Heatran and Ash-Greninja too reliably, and it will be overwhelmed in the long run. The toad has 2 things over the Fairy/Water Pokemon, and those are: access to Stealth Rock, and an immunity to Electric attacks. This makes the Pokemon a good fit on teams with hard hitters with hardly any defensive utility.

B- > B+ (at least)
I nominated Urshifu-R to B+, but the right placement for the Pokemon should really be A. It's absurdly powerful, has priority, and is an offensive Pokemon with great defensive utility. Its best set is Band; instead of using U-Turn/S-Strikes/CC/Jet, it should use S-Strikes/CC/Jet/P-Jab. It's better than U-Turn because it allows it to heavily dent Fini, which allows it to break through the Pokemon with either its water or fighting STAB with hazards. Poison Jab also allows it to instantly get rid of Tapu Bulu. The Pokemon pairs incredibly well Tapu Lele; scarfed set provides it with psychic terrain boosted Future Sight support, and specs annihilates any Bulky Water that can withstand Watershifu's might.

B+ > A-
Everyone knows how oppressive this damn moth is on the teambuilder. National Dex has a lot more tools to deal with Volcarona than SS OU, mostly in the form of priority, but that doesn't stop this thing from ravaging teams with a click of a button in the mid-late game. And seriously, is this thing 2 places below Magnezone, 1 place below Slowking, and in the same tier as Gastrodon, Jirachi, and Reuniclus?


Below is a list of replays that support my first 3 nominations:

Replays

Mega Manectric

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1398539541
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1397972339

Seismitoad

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1397968801-ol6kahfpg6pbbybfypxgvyhbz2stk5spw

Urshifu-R

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1398543179
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1398526471

There are only 5 replays, but these are the only replays that absolutely clearly shows each Pokemon's strength. There are much more replays that does show the benefit of using the three Pokemon, but not as clearly; most games end up with Tapu Lele as the clear MVP.

 

[adem]

really disagree with basically everything here

It's been ages since I touched Pokemon. I am here to make some nominations, and then to go into eternal slumber until Gen 9.

UR > C: while i do think manec has a niche, its not a c worthy niche imo, at probably around the c- -> d range

Set

Manectric-Mega @ Manectite
Ability: Lightning Rod
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Mega Manectric is a Pokemon with Electric/Fire/Ice coverage and 135 Speed and Special Attack. Not much more to say about its profile. Manectric deserves a spot on the VR because of its prowess against offensive teams, and bulky offense teams in the mid-late game. It is NOT a worse Tapu Koko because it has fire coverage; with Tapu Koko it can be annoying to not be able to get past bulky grass types like Ferrothorn and Tapu Bulu without relying on pivoting to a teammate i dont rlly see this as a bad thing, and not like the fire coverage helps break all the grasses anyways lul (av tang)252 SpA Manectric-Mega Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 146-174 (36.1 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, (amoong) 252 SpA Manectric-Mega Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 204+ SpD Amoonguss: 176-208 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery, (spdef bulu) 252 SpA Manectric-Mega Flamethrower vs. 220 HP / 140+ SpD Tapu Bulu: 168-198 (50 - 58.9%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery [this one is probably the best chances when u account for other chip, but them u remember it can run protect and negate this completely lol] anyways i would rather pivot out than do nothing. . However, it is not a better Tapu Koko. It takes up a Mega Stone, and having only one type makes facing Tyranitar/Clefable/Toxapex teams really hard. Despite these downsides, it should be at least C on the VR. also the fact that it cant break past any bulky teams, ie any team with either mega lati, any team with gastro etc etc, like the only benefit is beating ferro, but it has no recovery and just gonna get worn down by koko anyways.

UR > C: again as much as i love toad it is again, maybe viable enough for d or c- but definitely not anywhere on the vr now

Set

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 220 HP / 220 SpD / 68 Spe
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Knock Off
- Earth Power 0 SpA Seismitoad Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 264-312 (68.3 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery probably want eq unless u want spdef tran to be able to stay in on u once

Yes, Dracovish is banned. Seismitoad is basically a worse Tapu Fini: it is also a worse gastrodon, washtom, slowking, gliscor and toxapex too! it cannot check Heatran and Ash-Greninja too reliably, and it will be overwhelmed in the long run even in the short run tbh, especially without refresh tran just tox’s 252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Seismitoad: 80-94 (19.3 - 22.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and trapping damage add in tox and its basically a 3hko, 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Seismitoad: 148-175 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. The toad has 2 things over the Fairy/Water Pokemon, and those are: access to Stealth Rock just run a different rocker lol, and an immunity to Electric attacks gastro. This makes the Pokemon a good fit on teams with hard hitters with hardly any defensive utility. if u mean ho then you should never be touching this, if you mean offense, fini and washtom r still what i would run over it, and slot a different rocker (especially considering supdef lando is so easily slappable on these teams)

B- > B+ (at least) im not to big on shifu, but ik its a decent breaker, but b- is where it shld stay because it just needs fsight to actually break, and has so much shit going against in in this meta
I nominated Urshifu-R to B+, but the right placement for the Pokemon should really be A this is a joke lol, it is no where near a tier, mandating a fsight mon to actually break, requires the opponent to play passively, bad speed tier, this thing is not even comparable to the likes of mchomp, kyurem, koko. It's absurdly powerful, has priority, and is an offensive Pokemon with great defensive utility 252+ SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 135-160 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and trapping damage nr its quite frail actually, great is pushing it. Its best set is Band; instead of using U-Turn/S-Strikes/CC/Jet, it should use S-Strikes/CC/Jet/P-Jab now w/o uturn you basically cant pivot out of [insert thing that walls u] anymore to preserve momentum, and cc / strikes / turn dents fini anyways. It's better than U-Turn because it allows it to heavily dent Fini, which allows it to break through the Pokemon with either its water or fighting STAB with hazards. Poison Jab also allows it to instantly get rid of Tapu Bulu cc / strikes 2hko after chip anyways, and bulu isn’t relevant enough rn to warrant it. The Pokemon pairs incredibly well Tapu Lele; scarfed set provides it with psychic terrain boosted it needs future sight* Future Sight support, and specs annihilates any Bulky Water that can withstand Watershifu's might.

B+ > A- dont agree with the points made here, but agree with a rise
Everyone knows how oppressive this damn moth is on the teambuilder. National Dex has a lot more tools to deal with Volcarona than SS OU, mostly in the form of priority, but that doesn't stop this thing from ravaging teams with a click of a button in the mid-late game. And seriously, is this thing 2 places below Magnezone, 1 place below Slowking, and in the same tier as Gastrodon, Jirachi, and Reuniclus?


Below is a list of replays that support my first 3 nominations:

Replays

Mega Manectric

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1398539541 oppo protected infront of a urshifu when he had a full hp pex, and tbh this match on the contrary showed me how bad manectric was lol like -
Turn 29

The opposing Manectric used Thunderbolt!
It's super effective!
(ζ lost 65% of its health!) (pex)
like u dont even force out pex lol

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1397972339 the opposing team is bad and 6-0ed by rain / agren, idt this is really that good of a replay to use

Seismitoad

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1397968801-ol6kahfpg6pbbybfypxgvyhbz2stk5spw literally toad only did things because heatran missed all its magmas on it bar 1, and also you only won ths because tran missed magma on corv too, if it hit literally 1 more on the toad before, it would have died literally 10 rounds earlier, and i dont see why u cant just make a good team with a fini/washtom and a rocker lol

Urshifu-R

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1398543179 u loaded lele vs a team with kartana as its steel, the only reason shifu did something was bc the opponent was forced to go to pex every time on lele, basically bad mu
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1398526471

i dont think i have to explain any further why u won this match

There are only 5 replays, but these are the only replays that absolutely clearly shows each Pokemon's strength no non of them do. There are much more replays that does show the benefit of using the three Pokemon, but not as clearly; most games end up with Tapu Lele as the clear MVP.

 

[pannu]

really disagree with basically everything here

Dawg whyd you qc a vr nom LOOOL

Also,

to B+
to B

I believe that Greninja and Glowking have established a niche solid enough in the current metagame for them to raise.

Greninja which, in previous more bulky metagames was regarded as a poor pokemon due to its inability to break, has found a place in the more offense centric metagame. Having a speed tier above the likes of Serperior, Mega Latias, and Kartana make it excellent as speed control, and its access to Spikes aswell as the offensive pressure gained through its coverage not only give it an insanely adaptable moveset that you can customize on a team to team basis, it also gives it the ability to beat mostly every relevant defogger in the tier, or just heavily punish them for defogging.

Its also excellent at luring the checks to its ash counterpart and koing them aswell as being a stellar scarfer, which is able to handle many pokemon offense struggles against such as Mega lopunny and Weavile, while also outpacing speed boosted pokemon such as Volcarona, Mega Garchomp, and Mega Gyarados.

Slowking on the other hand, is a fantastic Regenerator pivot with access to Future Sight, which its much better at setting up compared to its Kantonian counterpart, as well as insane coverage allowing it to hit almost everything in the tier, if predicted right. Notably its access to ice beam allows it to punish Ground-types for trying to switch into it. AV glowking is some of the best defensive glue on offense right now

 

[Ox the Fox]

UR --> B+
UR --> B+

Started playing this archetype recently after seeing how broken it is in OU, and holy shit it's good right now. I had one of my easiest and best ladder climbs abusing it, and I was honestly really surprised when I checked VR and saw that both of these mons are unranked. Arctozolt is one of the hardest pokemon in the tier to switch into when it's under hail, having the fantastic boltbeam coverage while outspeeding most mons outside of scarfers. It's able to 2HKO/OHKO the vast majority of the tier with its bolt beak, blizzard, and low kick move coverage, with other options being viable like freeze dry and icicle crash. It's also not really that hard to bring in the field - it's either able to come in off of a momentum move, or hard switch on mons when you have an aurora veil up. Ninetales-A is also not that bad of a mon and can either run support sets or NP offensive sets. I've been preferring pain split aurora veil sets in this tier, as it really helps beat the fairly common gastrodon long-term. Veil is also just an incredible move that allows you so much more leeway vs common threats in the metagame. NP sets also have a lot of room to be explored with hidden power being able to lure scizor or tyranitar. One common misconception I keep hearing about hail is that it's just a MU fish. This is a pretty absurd statement and I'm not sure what people are basing it off of. Any standard BO that has no weather mon is going to struggle to deal with arctozolt, and even the ones that do have Tyranitar or Hippowdon will struggle keeping them alive long-term with all the pressure that comes from hail. Overall, I think this is an amazing archetype that will only get better as more people explore it and is easily deserving of B+ rank.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1401001820
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1400982145
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1400606035

 

[Avery]

zarude should be in B-, if not B. bulk up zarude is an absolute menace for defensive / balance / literally any slower team since most times ur way of revenge killing it does not want to risk switching raw into a power whip (see: koko / lop) and most defensive hard "answers" get torn up by the z move or a stab into z move (see: corv). most balance teams lately rely on some combo of corv + tran + lando or corv + tran + pex to handle grasses, and zarude absolutely owns those team styles. fatter teams ofc use corv / skarm which still have a losing matchup if played properly. the big issue i have found is the fact that the recovery move is only 25% so its not getting a ton of room vs offensive teams, not a super consistent gren / ground check, and its often forced to blow the z when it may need it for diff checks like volc + corv or smth. the speed tier and power by themselves are rly nice as well since even vs offense you can usually revenge kill a mon or two despite not being able to set up. on paper its not too crazy of a threat but in practice its definitely rather scary and is due for a rise.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

UR --> B+
UR --> B+

Started playing this archetype recently after seeing how broken it is in OU, and holy shit it's good right now. I had one of my easiest and best ladder climbs abusing it, and I was honestly really surprised when I checked VR and saw that both of these mons are unranked. Arctozolt is one of the hardest pokemon in the tier to switch into when it's under hail, having the fantastic boltbeam coverage while outspeeding most mons outside of scarfers. It's able to 2HKO/OHKO the vast majority of the tier with its bolt beak, blizzard, and low kick move coverage, with other options being viable like freeze dry and icicle crash. It's also not really that hard to bring in the field - it's either able to come in off of a momentum move, or hard switch on mons when you have an aurora veil up. Ninetales-A is also not that bad of a mon and can either run support sets or NP offensive sets. I've been preferring pain split aurora veil sets in this tier, as it really helps beat the fairly common gastrodon long-term. Veil is also just an incredible move that allows you so much more leeway vs common threats in the metagame. NP sets also have a lot of room to be explored with hidden power being able to lure scizor or tyranitar. One common misconception I keep hearing about hail is that it's just a MU fish. This is a pretty absurd statement and I'm not sure what people are basing it off of. Any standard BO that has no weather mon is going to struggle to deal with arctozolt, and even the ones that do have Tyranitar or Hippowdon will struggle keeping them alive long-term with all the pressure that comes from hail. Overall, I think this is an amazing archetype that will only get better as more people explore it and is easily deserving of B+ rank.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1401001820
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1400982145
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1400606035

I would like to use this great post as support for > B-. Its one of most punishing things switch into and completely abuses the pokemon that are used to check Ash-Greninja. The only pokemon that can take all of its moves is Tapu Fini and blobs, the former doesn't even have recovery. Ox's 3rd replay shows this off beautifully. While it does compete with Ash-Greninja and doesn't have the best speed tier its a good pokemon in the current metagame that abuses Ferrothorn + Fairy cores.

UR > B-

Buzzwole provides a offensive presence with excellent defensive utility. I list this things it checks. Garchomp, Gliscor, Kartana, Weavile, and Rillaboom. Buzzwole lack of passivity lends it a niche over other similiar pokemon like Tangrowth. Buzzwole speed is underrated as with investment it outspeeds Mega Mawile and most Heatrans. I've seen this thing a lot recently and I think its above the C ranks because of how much more splashable it is compared to all of them (besides Mega Latios wtf how did that get down there lol).

2 BUZZWOLES! It was very helpful here to aid Mega Diancie in stopping the rocks getting up by pressuring Chansey.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1388057163-6lztxmraw3j0342vx0anlypgkrvxgg2pw

Buzzwole's speed above Mega Mawile being very helpful here.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1388488105

 

[LightNox1]

So I don't know how many people will agree with this but
to S
Ash Greninja is truly an amazing mon right now this thing just nukes most teams with specs hydro pump and dark pulse and providing great speed control with its normal high base speed stat along with its priority water shuriken. Now there are some mons that can tank its hits like Kommo, Tapu Fini and Tapu Bulu just to name a few but the thing that makes this mon so good is spikes with spikes this mon only has ONE true counter and that is Blissey who runs Heeavy-Duty-Boots and has a monstrous hp stat along with a great sp def stat

Noms I agree with:
to B+
to B
->S/S-
-> S/S-
-> A+
-> A+
-> A
-> C
-> C
-> B+
- > A-

 

[Nish the Great]

Cant figure out how to put sprites :(


Nomming Tapu Bulu from B- to B+

I feel like Tapu Bulu has made a bit of an upswing recently, and after using it recently, I see why. The role compression that it provides for teams is amazing. There are 2 main sets I want to talk about, those being Swords Dance sets, usually with Z move, and bulky sets.

Swords Dance Z-move (Tapu Bulu) @ Rockium Z/ Fightinium Z/ Life Orb/ Leftovers (Z-Move Recommended)
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 220 HP / 96 Atk / 48 SpD / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Horn Leech
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge

Swords Dance sets give bulky offence and balance a way to soft check ash greninja, handle rain, set grassy terrain for their team, soft check Garchomp, mega or otherwise, lure Heatran with Close Combat or metal birds with Z-Moves, and have a potential endgame wincon against bulkier builds. It manages to stay pretty healthy through a match with Horn Leech and it’s own grassy terrain. In my opinion, it pairs better with Heatran than Rillaboom because it can switch into water moves better, has a fighting resistance, and isn’t weak to Landorus’ U-turn, meaning it covers its weaknesses far better while still giving Heatran its beloved terrain. In addition, it pairs well with Kartana because it effectively lures the most common steels while boosting Kartana’s Leaf Blade and allowing it to shrug off Earthquakes from, say, a Scarf Landorus trying to revenge it.

Tapu Bulu @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Swords Dance
- Horn Leech
- Superpower/Close Combat
- Synthesis

I don't like Bulky Tapu Bulu as much because I feel that it gives up on too much of the role compression of Swords Dance Bulu, but I acknowledge that it is able to actually properly wall what it is supposed to, rather than soft checking them. Ash-Greninja and both Chomps are what this excels at countering, and the fact that it still carries swords dance means that it can be more than just a blob. In addition to having proper recover in Synthesis, it heals as much per turn as Gliscor between Grassy Terrain and of course has Horn Leech.

Great Wall of Calcs

SD
+2 96+ Atk Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 283-333 (70.7 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 96+ Atk Tapu Bulu Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 267-315 (66.7 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 96+ Atk Tapu Bulu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 179-211 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 204-242 (59.4 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 96+ Atk Tapu Bulu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 488-576 (126.4 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 248 HP / 48 SpD Tapu Bulu: 270-318 (78.7 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery and trapping damage
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 48 SpD Tapu Bulu: 150-177 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp-Mega Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 308-364 (89.7 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp-Mega Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 156-184 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery (Click Horn Leech to garuntee 3hko)

Bulky
+2 252 Atk Garchomp-Mega Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Bulu: 306-360 (89.2 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tapu Bulu: 113-133 (32.9 - 38.7%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Bulu: 164-195 (47.8 - 56.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Bulu: 126-150 (36.7 - 43.7%) -- 15.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
Gassy Terrain
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 341-402 (112.1 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 204-240 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- 60.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery (Use Protect for Garunteed)

In short, I think that Bulu can patch up multiple holes in a team and therefore can be used easily enough and with enough effectiveness to warrant a B+ rank.

Forgot this:96+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 270-320 (75.6 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery with average 50% recovery, matching fire fang’s damage

 

[Avery]

hello gamers, after all the rapid metagame development, especially in NDLT, we figured an update would be in order. a full list of votes can be found here.

Rises

Heatran: A+ -> S
Lopunny-Mega: A -> A+
Tapu Fini: A -> A+
Weavile: A -> A+
Diancie-Mega: A- -> A
Melmetal: B+ -> A-
Rotom-W: B -> B+
Slowking-Galar: B- -> B
Tapu Bulu: B- -> B
Urshifu-RS: B- -> B
Latios-Mega: C -> B
Zarude: C -> B-
Blacephalon: UR -> C
Hippowdon: UR -> C
Thundurus: UR -> C
Ninetales-A: UR -> B
Arctozolt: UR -> B
Volcanion: UR -> C
Buzzwole: UR -> C

Drops

Rillaboom: A -> B+
Tyranitar: A -> A-
Tyranitar-Mega: A -> A-
Excadrill: A- -> B+
Slowking: A- -> B
Aegislash: B+ -> B
Gengar: B+ -> B
Jirachi: B+ -> B
Charizard-Mega-X: B -> B-
Gallade-Mega: B -> B-
Slowbro-Mega: B -> B-
Zeraora: B -> B-
Shuckle: B- -> C
Alakazam: C -> UR
Pyukumuku: C -> UR
Venusaur-Mega: C -> UR
Zapdos-Galar: C -> UR

Heatran has long been at the forefront of the metagame courtesy of its stellar defensive profile and uparalleled ability to keep up entry hazards. As of late, the ubiquity of Pokemon giving free entry to Heatran is abundant as well, such as staples like Corviknight and Ferrothorn. Heatran's checks are also quite easy for it to break through long term, with options such as Mega Latias and Rotom-W falling victim to Toxic and Gliscor and Garchomp being evaporated by Heatran's Z Move of choice. Between defensive sets and offensive sets, there is very little hard defined counterplay to all of Heatran's tools. This, combined with it's insane splashability as one of the most consistent Stealth Rock setters in the tier, warrants a rise to S rank alongside Landorus-T.



Newly established Swords Dance sets are terrifying, and Choice Band is scarier than ever with most Toxapex running significant Special Defense investment. Pursuit is especially invaluable in a metagame with monstrous Psychics surging up again as well. Weavile's consistency against the current offense and balance styles coupled with the aforementioned factors cements it a spot in A+.



Hail's surge through NDLT shows off the true prowess of this insane duo. Between Ninetale's ability to summon hail and Arctozolt's ludicrous threat level while hail is active, this pair has certainly established itself as the core of one of the scarier team styles around lately, landing themselves in B.



Less Tyranitar formes and thus less Ghost-resists? Perfect time to click Specs Shadow Ball with impunity.



A solid electric check that also sets rocks. This should've stayed ranked last update, but it was dropped for some reason.



Quite the fearsome offensive pivot, somewhat similar to Zeraora except it isn't hard walled by most Ground-types courtesy of U-Turn.



This thing has some pretty nasty coverage and hits the majority of the metagame, especially Steel-types, quite hard, which team styles such as offense and Hail appreciate dearly.



A solid check to the Ground- and Grass-types Swords Dancing all over this metagame. Enough to establish itself in C rank.



More Corviknight, Weavile, bulky Grasses, Heatran, and Volcarona are all bad news for the monkey. Choice Band sets are frankly awful, with locking into any move being quite abusable nowadays. Swords Dance sets still have issues breaking through teams, but match up fairly well against offensive teams. All of these shortcomings warrant a drop a whole two ranks, to B+.



The role of premier special sponge in this metagame has shifted far away from Slowking, and more onto Heatran and Slowking-Galar, ironically. Slowking's Pursuit weakness is also exacerbated in the new Weavile metagame. The other glaring issue is that Slowking is your specially defensive Water resist that can't check Ash-Greninja, leading to some really strange teambuilding tendencies, warranting a sizable drop.



These pokemon are all either outclassed or virtually useless. When's the last time you saw any of these get usage in serious tournament play?

And thats all! Feel free to let us know your thoughts below!

 

[TailGlowVM]

These pokemon are all either outclassed or virtually useless. When's the last time you saw any of these get usage in serious tournament play?

And thats all! Feel free to let us know your thoughts below!

Was Dracozolt meant to be unranked then? It's not listed in the changes,

avery edit - i didnt want to reply but that was a mistake, as can be seen on the sheet we are 1 vote short and i tallied wrong lol sry

 

[Kyo]

PLS rank this mon if not in B- then at least C. Defensive sets are so underexplored rn and I've been having a ton of success with it on fat teams. Also think it's like the only mon in the tier that checks Heatran and Kartana in one slot.

edit: replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1405755077-xe0223mnmpj94uigh7fkgpvm2a7lsfppw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1403156505
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1404568459
i've killed like a dozen karts with this mon but I dont have those games saved

 

[Weaselfie]

Recently I have been using galar moltres on HO and I have had great success with it. I would like to nom it to B- as of right now because i feel it is very viable and can work on HO very nicely. One thing i would like to mention is its ability beserk. This is a great ability for a mon on HO because it helps when you set up and increases more offensive pressure. Another thing is the set up moves. It has access to agility and nasty plot which is amazing to outspeed fast threats such as ash greninja,mega lopunny,serperior,volcarona and kartana. Last thing that stands out about moltres galar is the attacking moves. Fiery wrath and air slash are very good moves with moltres as they are stab and can hit hard with a nasty plot. They also have a good chance to flinch which can come and help you in some situations. Overall I was very surprised seeing this being unranked and I believe it deserves more attention especially on HO builds.

Replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1405838043-fssn9j8l0patj3vut1edvu99thmqlq0pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1405834812

 

[Weaselfie]

I'm back with more noms and ima first nom Nidoking to C or B-. This pokemon has coverage for pretty much everything and once its on the field you can't switch in to it. It is a very underrated wall breaker and can break many balance and bulky offense teams. As of right now mons such as pex corv clef heatran and ferro are used but thats all just nidoking food. I am going to first talk about its movepool because thats a main thing that makes it a very good wallbreaker and tough to switch into. It has fire,ice,electric,fighting,water along with a ground poison stab. This covers a good amount of the meta besides some mons that are neutral to all those such as gastro which earth power does like 40 to and can easily wear it down. Another thing that makes this pokemon so good is the ability sheer force. It makes it hit like a truck and get OHKO's for free. This pokemon can switch into mons such as clefable and ferro although u would wanna have to get nido in safely via u turn and teleport. Now some pokemon that threaten nido are faster mons like weavile ash greninja mega lopunny mega latias and mega diancie so it does need some defensive support for those. Overall this mon is an amazing wallbreaker and when i have been testing it out it always puts in work when needed and can help a lot of mons that struggle with common walls. Last thing i want to mention about this is that it can also beat blissey with superpower its an OHKO after 2 superpowers with 0 atk investment.

Replays: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1412061105-fowpr28iecu9m6x42fkgbyknmkal5m6pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1412072011-8h50bautoan98vi4ncvca0l4eve55ktpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1412077472-srf0zh6zg9w4kl3uf7y1wk2xq0tivg6pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1412099573-a4yyig5apg5ux7seph4ysha7oi1v9s1pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1412103935-p95tpqnsil3vus74hhp2g3k9eqq0cl4pw



I would like to nom kartana to S-. This pokemon has to be one of the best if not the best wallbreaker in the tier. It has access to 181 base attack,swords dance,good movepool with sacred sword giga impact leaf blade knock off aerial ace and smart strike,a z move and even choice band for immediate power. This pokemon can beat a lot of stuff such as tang and corv with z moves and can be unstoppable to wall defensively, Just like nidoking though it struggles with faster mons and is very frail on the special defense side. It needs defensive support as well for threats like ash greninja lopunny latias. Another thing kartana has which helps it a lot is immunity to spore and toxic which really help it a lot not getting crippled or being useless for 1-3 turns. There were also a few people wanting kartana suspect tested and banned but I don't believe its banworthy its just top tier in national dex. Overall this pokemon deserves S- its a splashable offensive pokemon if u just wanna break stuff.



Ash greninja has to be in my top 3 for favourite pokemon in national dex. This thing is ridiculously strong once battle bond activates and is just hard to switch into. It has 153 base special attack and a nice speed tier with 132 base speed. It has great stab moves such as surf on rain,hydro pump,dark pulse and a good priority move water shuriken. Last slot you have some options such as spikes to wear down mons like av tang,ammonguss,fini and non hdb blissey. There is also ice beam for mons like kommo,bulu,garchomp and other grasses and general. You can also run u turn to u turn on blissey into a physical attacker. I wanna nom it to S tier as it has to be the best special attacking pokemon and has immediate power. It is very splashable on lopunny,mawile,medi teams or any physical attacker teams in general. Overall its a very big threat in this tier and in the builder everyone always says "where is your ash gren check???" but in reality ash gren beats its checks. There aren't many fast pokemon that outspeed it besides mega lopunny,zera,mega manetric,eleki, and some scarf mons.

To sum it up,i believe these three pokemon have been proven to get a rise in the next vr update. Since NDPL is coming in like 2 weeks that is when these pokemon will shine and more people will know whats good and whats overhyped. If you guys also still feel uncertain abt galar moltres or nidoking rising i suggest you can try them out yourself and if u need a team just pm me at Weaselfie and I can pass a team with them whenever i am online.