Resource National Dex Viability Rankings v2

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(not to look boastful, just want to show I’ve just seen a lot on ladder)
Deoxys-Defense also does incredibly well on higher ladder, it leaves higher skilled players only the option to endlessly switch in hopes of deterring pressure.
Deoxys-Defense for b/b+/a-/a
Im user Kosmos-110 and I have a recommendation/nomination for Deoxys-D to a-/a
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1.) Deo-D has access to taunt. This coupled with its speed tier grants it the ability to taunt numerous threats such as Tapu Fini, Ferrothorn, Toxapex, Mvenu out of sun, etc. this also grants it the ability to stop setup sweepers such as Mlatias and Reuniclus. (See point #5 for Heatran)
2.) Stoss/Night Shade. Night shade is arguably better here as it allows for no contact damage equal to the users level. This allows Deo-D to provide solid damage to threats as well as prevent recovery with speedy taunts.
3.) massive defensive stats. Deo-d has intense defensive stats. 248 HP investments to deter extra rocks damage grants it near immortality against non super effective attacks. A mere 8 defense investment with bold nature grants it a near 400 defensive stat. This allows for Deo-D to easily set up with cosmic power.
4.)252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +1 248 HP / 8+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 182-216 (60 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. This may seem scary at first, but once Deo-d recovers after an obvious knock off weavile is left with a much weaker knock off, allowing Deo-D to recover and cosmic power even more.
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. +2 248 HP / 8+ Def Deoxys-Defense: 92-110 (30.3 - 36.3%) -- 46.8% chance to 3HKO.
5.) Pressure ability. As mentioned earlier, Deoxys-Defense has access to both taunt and pressure. This allows it to easy swallow up attacks with ease thanks to cosmic power and its massive defense investments. Heatran is an example with this, Magma storm is easily handled with pressure and Heatran is left only to earth power and magma storm after being taunted thanks to Deoxys’ speed tier outspeeding Heatran. This applies to much more than just Heatran, as pressure proves itself to be an asset long term over the course of a match, wearing down multiple Pokémons power points and easily swallowing up z moves as well.
6.) Deoxys-D also does incredibly well against S ranked Pokémon. I.e. Mega Lopunny: in addition to being setup fodder, it can only frustration/u turn on it and take chip damage from rocky helmet. Landorus-Therian: defensive is easily taunted and made setup fodder, Heatran: see point #5
A-/A might be a stretch, however I’ve noticed that it does incredibly well against such a bulk of the Metagame; and I mean such a bulk. I’ve seen it do incredibly well so often I couldn’t possibly see is anywhere below b-. It’s incredibly user friendly and has a very good movepool as well, having access to spikes and teleport.
 
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Clementine

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echoing the above posts, I think regular gren :greninja: should rise to A, potentially even A+

Protean Gren is an insanely good Pokemon that can fit on most archetypes besides stall/fat
It has a variety of sets that allow it to always serve a purpose and no matter what you need for your team, chances are there's a protgren set that can fill the spot and do an incredible job at it
Main thing that it does very, very well is set-up Spikes! Gren is the mon that forces the most switches basically ever, cause you're afraid of AshGren, but also some variants of Protean, and you don't wanna risk a switch-in to one Gren set that can potentially lose to another, so you kinda just scout and switch around and Gren can use that to set up layers of Spikes for itself or its mates.

some sets that I've used and loved:

Groundium Protean Greninja (aka Physically Based Z)
Even tho there's no Magearna to lure in here, Toxapex is still the big target of this very nice lure set, and Gren can effortlessly remove it from the game, allowing another teammate to go ham on the opposing team. Coverage is always nice to lure in Fini with Gunk Shot, or U-turn around to more threatening teammates. It can also quite easily set-up Spikes, as a lot of people like to scout for coverage options, allowing you to freely get a few layers up.

Boots Greninja (aka the one and only EuroGren (props to pannuracotta for picking this name and sticking to calling it that when there's literally 3 people using this name))
Coming from SM OU myself, the first thing I thought when Boots were announced was "wow Volcarona's gonna be busted". Second thing however was "damn Prot Gren is gonna be so obnoxious to deal with with Boots on". And it's exactly what happens here.
Boots Gren is the ultimate offensive pivot. You can put anything you want on this set as long as the item is Boots and the move you click the most is U-turn. It's incredible vs fatter Gliscor builds as it will always force it out with Ice Beam and make a LOT of progress as well. Simple set of IceBeam/Gunk/Turn/Spikes can singlehandedly mess a lot of bulkier builds up.
Used it in SemiFinals of NDWC to great success, as it was able to lay down a few layers and U-turn around while forcing in Pex, slowly but surely putting it in range of a potential Scizor sweep in the end.
Boots Gren works quite well with Zone, as people sometimes use Corv as their ProtGren switch-in once they realise it doesn't have anything to hurt it.

Waterium Protean Gren (aka Specially Based Z, aka my least favorite set)
I'm not the biggest fan of Specially Based ZProtGren, but it does the job most of the time. Set is usually Hydro/HP Fire/Gunk/Spikes, but Ice Beam can be an option as well if you're struggling with Chomp and need a guaranteed OHKO.
Psychium with Extransensory is a decent option to lure in and smash Pex/SpD Kommo-o, but it's usually unimpressive when you're not facing those.
Once again, gets Spikes up cause people switch around it a lot.

Scarf Gren (aka not the most common set)
Used to be a big Scarf ProtGren fan in SM OU and this set is still quite nice, you can mix & match its options to beat Volcarona / Zard if you're weak to them by running Rock Slide, or Fairies with Gunk Shot, and you kinda need Ice Beam (and 80 SpA EVs) to revenge kill Kartana but still hit Dragons for good damage, and then you obviously got U-turn that you're going to click 90% of the time, and you can also run Spikes as always (I think you get it at this point)

tldr: gren great, many sets, scares out a lot of stuff, sets up spikes for free, makes progress in games, sticks around forever with boots, used it a lot and will use it again
i think it's much better than ashgren in a sense that it can beat every single one of its checks, but at the same time it's less of a big presence in the builder, and ashgren is still incredible at bullshitting through unprepped teams so im not entirely sure it deserves A+ when ashgren is in A, but either way, A- is way too low for this beast
 
idk what the reception of this nom will be, but fuck it, here’s my nom.

D34AC56B-7F84-4398-92DD-AFEDD5E86259.png - B -> A-
this thing is a complete nuke once it gets in. now, before we get into why i think mega charizard y is an A- mon, let’s address its flaws, starting with its frailty. it’s not kartana levels of fragile, but it’s not winning any awards for the bulkiest pokemon in the tier. most strong neutral hits from mega lopunny, offensive garchomp and weavile will either dent it hard and prevent it from switching in for the rest of the game, or outright kill it. another thing is that all 3 of the pokemon listed are faster than zard. its speed tier of 100 leaves a lot to be desired against more offensive teams, especially since it can’t live any hits without eating a lot of damage. so those are some things that some may have against it, but let’s also address the elephant in the room: its 4x weakness to rock, meaning it loses 50% of its health when switching into stealth rock. this is undoubtedly charizard’s biggest flaw, as it makes it harder to come in and do what it wants to do, because it cannot switch in at all until rocks have been removed. this means that zard has to be paired with defoggers like zapdos and corviknight, unless it becomes crippled to the point of being unable to accomplish anything, making it a pokemon that needs heavy maintenance and requires lots of support from the aforementioned defoggers to succeed.


but when you manage to get this monster in safely, it just claims kills left and right. all you need is some defog support and maybe teleport to bring it in safely, and zard y destroys nearly everything in its wake. its drought ability boosts its fire-type attacks to obscene levels, making it easy to OHKO anything not resistant (or in some cases, outright immune) to fire. not only that, but it packs tons of coverage moves to cover as much as possible. of course, you have your fire-type STAB move of choice as well as solar beam, but beyond that, there‘s no telling as to what zard y has in store for any of its checks and counters, such as air slash, scorching sands, focus blast, dragon pulse, hell even weather ball as an alternative STAB move and to hit hard in other weathers. here are some of the calcs I made to showcase zard’s obscene wallbreaking capabilities:

- 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian in Sun: 378-445 (98.9 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

- 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

- 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper in Sun: 126-148 (58.5 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

- 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 40 HP / 48 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 384-456 (109.4 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

- 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 244-288 (70.9 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

- 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 152-180 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

if you can get zard y in and force something out, almost nothing can safely come in on it without having to play a guessing game on what coverage zard has in store and if they’ll be to survive two hits from this monster. it requires a bit of help from its teammates to effectively function, but with the right support, zard y becomes a menacing wallbreaker that can rip any team apart that doesn’t have blissey.
 
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Milo

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Rises:

:Greninja: A- -> A

As Clementine said here (not gonna repeat the solid points already made)
echoing the above posts, I think regular gren :greninja: should rise to A, potentially even A+

Protean Gren is an insanely good Pokemon that can fit on most archetypes besides stall/fat
It has a variety of sets that allow it to always serve a purpose and no matter what you need for your team, chances are there's a protgren set that can fill the spot and do an incredible job at it
Main thing that it does very, very well is set-up Spikes! Gren is the mon that forces the most switches basically ever, cause you're afraid of AshGren, but also some variants of Protean, and you don't wanna risk a switch-in to one Gren set that can potentially lose to another, so you kinda just scout and switch around and Gren can use that to set up layers of Spikes for itself or its mates.

some sets that I've used and loved:

Groundium Protean Greninja (aka Physically Based Z)
Even tho there's no Magearna to lure in here, Toxapex is still the big target of this very nice lure set, and Gren can effortlessly remove it from the game, allowing another teammate to go ham on the opposing team. Coverage is always nice to lure in Fini with Gunk Shot, or U-turn around to more threatening teammates. It can also quite easily set-up Spikes, as a lot of people like to scout for coverage options, allowing you to freely get a few layers up.

Boots Greninja (aka the one and only EuroGren (props to pannuracotta for picking this name and sticking to calling it that when there's literally 3 people using this name))
Coming from SM OU myself, the first thing I thought when Boots were announced was "wow Volcarona's gonna be busted". Second thing however was "damn Prot Gren is gonna be so obnoxious to deal with with Boots on". And it's exactly what happens here.
Boots Gren is the ultimate offensive pivot. You can put anything you want on this set as long as the item is Boots and the move you click the most is U-turn. It's incredible vs fatter Gliscor builds as it will always force it out with Ice Beam and make a LOT of progress as well. Simple set of IceBeam/Gunk/Turn/Spikes can singlehandedly mess a lot of bulkier builds up.
Used it in SemiFinals of NDWC to great success, as it was able to lay down a few layers and U-turn around while forcing in Pex, slowly but surely putting it in range of a potential Scizor sweep in the end.
Boots Gren works quite well with Zone, as people sometimes use Corv as their ProtGren switch-in once they realise it doesn't have anything to hurt it.

Waterium Protean Gren (aka Specially Based Z, aka my least favorite set)
I'm not the biggest fan of Specially Based ZProtGren, but it does the job most of the time. Set is usually Hydro/HP Fire/Gunk/Spikes, but Ice Beam can be an option as well if you're struggling with Chomp and need a guaranteed OHKO.
Psychium with Extransensory is a decent option to lure in and smash Pex/SpD Kommo-o, but it's usually unimpressive when you're not facing those.
Once again, gets Spikes up cause people switch around it a lot.

Scarf Gren (aka not the most common set)
Used to be a big Scarf ProtGren fan in SM OU and this set is still quite nice, you can mix & match its options to beat Volcarona / Zard if you're weak to them by running Rock Slide, or Fairies with Gunk Shot, and you kinda need Ice Beam (and 80 SpA EVs) to revenge kill Kartana but still hit Dragons for good damage, and then you obviously got U-turn that you're going to click 90% of the time, and you can also run Spikes as always (I think you get it at this point)

tldr: gren great, many sets, scares out a lot of stuff, sets up spikes for free, makes progress in games, sticks around forever with boots, used it a lot and will use it again
i think it's much better than ashgren in a sense that it can beat every single one of its checks, but at the same time it's less of a big presence in the builder, and ashgren is still incredible at bullshitting through unprepped teams so im not entirely sure it deserves A+ when ashgren is in A, but either way, A- is way too low for this beast

:Kyurem: A -> A+

Kyurem should definitely make a rise considering the huge rise of SubRoost. Whether it's boots, leftovers or metronome, this mon struggles for switch ins, being walled by Ferrothorn and Scizor mainly (with variations of Hidden Power Fire for Z-Move or Specs Focus Blast which has notably dropped off)

It fits very well onto balance and bulky offense with partners such as Lopunny, Mawile, offensive Heatran and Magnezone as well as enabling partners like Rotom-W.

With these qualities I believe it should make a rise.

Drops:

:corviknight: A -> A-

This Mon has dropped the ball so much, it should drop to A-. It doesn't belong in the same rank as Mons like Mega-Latias, Ash-Greninja or Tapu Lele just to name a few. Although it can fit onto builds very easily, it is too weak to the mass offense in the tier and does not serve as a counter to things like Lopunny, Weavile, Kartana and Garchomp which utilise rocks and Z-Moves to break corv with ease. It also cannot do anything to opposing defences such as Landorus and Heatran who take advantage of Corv's only option of switching out.

Things to watch out for:

:Medicham-mega:

Medicham has a made a rise in usage, and is starting to make it's way back into our hearts.

Fr though, as a wallbreaker it's doing much better in the current meta but isn't quite deserving of a rise yet.

:Tapu-lele:

I would say this is closer to a rise than Mega-Medicham as it can fit onto builds, present good speed control and terrain boosted damage. Can 2KO many things but once choice locked, is easily checked and countered by other defences. And Choice Specs is rather outclassed by Specs Kyurem, which has dropped the ball. However if partnered and played correctly, can chip enough Mons and provide speed control to help it's partners.
 

adem

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Hey everyone, I have some exciting new today!

Firstly, ChrisPBacon has been added to the VR council! Please make sure to congratulate him :]. Unfortunately, pannuracotta has stepped down from their council position, thank you for your time friend :(

On a higher note… the new VR update is here! you can view the voting sheet here
Code:
Rises:

Landorus-T: S- -> S
Weavile: S- -> S
Mega Latias: A -> A+
Greninja (Protean): A- -> A
Mega Medicham: A- -> A
Rotom-W: A- -> A
Zapdos: A- -> A
Mew: B -> B+
Urshifu-RS: B -> B+
Buzzwole: B -> B+
Mega Charizard Y: B -> B+
Deoxys D: B- -> B
Moltres: B- -> B
Moltres Galar: B- -> B
Mega Charizard X : C -> B
Hippowdon: C -> B-
Mega Aerodactyl: UR -> C
Nihilego: UR -> C
Mega Altaria: UR -> C

Drops:
Tapu Fini: A+ -> A
Mega Mawile: A+ -> A
Magnezone: A+ -> A
Ash Greninja: A -> A-
Slowbro: A -> A-
Corviknight: A -> B+
Mega Tyranitar: A- -> B+
Mega Garchomp: B+ -> B
Hydreigon: B+ -> B
Rillaboom: B -> B-
Tapu Bulu: B -> B-
Amoonguss: B- -> C
Zeraora: B- -> C
Ninetales Alola: B- -> C
Aegislash: C -> UR
Rotom-H: C -> UR
Ribombee: C -> UR
Zarude: C -> UR
Some interesting changes:

:ss/weavile: :ss/landorus-therian:

Both of these Pokemon claiming the throne at S is surely of no suprise to anyone at this point. Weavile has set itself apart as a potent offensive threat with Banded sets removing key threats such as Tapu Lele and the ever popular Mega Latias feom the game, while also being extremely hard to switch into its Triple Axels and Knock Offs. SD + Z sets are also becoming much more common, eliminating Toxapex while also preying on the downtrend of Tapu Fini.

Landorus-T on the other hand is just becoming more and more popular, with offense-inclined picks such as Rotom-W and Mega Medicham becoming better in the meta, Landorus piggybacks of off that as it is the premier defensive glue for these teams. Choice Scarf sets are also solid speed control offenses on certain balance teams, especially those aimed at Hazard Stacking.

:ss/greninja: :ss/greninja-ash:

Once thought to be wholly inferior to its counterpart, Protean Greninja has been consistently getting better and better as the months go on, due to how powerful Spikes are in the current metagame, and how it pressures out most of the Defoggers. Furthermore, its unpredictability and set diversity make it a formidable offensive threat as well, as it messes up popular offense and bulky offense defensive cores that generally have Tapu Fini, Ferrothorn, Landorus, and Heatran.

Ash Greninja on the other hand has been fading out of the spotlight as of recently, as getting into a position where it can comfortably exert pressure is hard with solid checks such as Toxapex, Tapu Fini, and Ferrothorn so popular. Furthermore, faster revenge killers like Mega Lopunny, Scarf Kartana and Tapu Lele are at an all time high, preventing it from cleaning up teams.

:ss/charizard-mega-y: :ss/charizard-mega-x:

Both Zards are super cool anti-meta picks right now, with Char Y annihilating common defensive cores that rely on Tapu Fini or Rotom-W as the sole fire resists. With arguably its best partner in Weavile rising in popularity as well, Yard by association gets better as alongside it teams that rely on Mega Latias to pivot into Char Y are easily stopped and forced into specific sequences to avoid getting trapped.

Mega Charizard is also something that has been popping off recently with some people utilisng DD 3A sets out of HO, alongside partners such as HWish Clefable, as well the classic DD 2A staying strong. Its ability to steamroll offenses overrelying on Fini + Lando to deal with it make this mon a monster if not dealt with quickly, and can easily clean said teams once their Lando is slightly chipped. Its defensive utility is also nice and makes it a soft check to the likes of Volcarona and Heatran.


:ss/altaria-mega: :ss/aerodactyl-mega: :ss/nihilego:

All three of these Pokemon have gotten ranked this slate, and for good reason. Mega Altaria has a niche, but great defensive profile and that incombination with its sheer bulk turn it into a great win-condition. DD 2A sets are commonly paired alongside the likes of Magnezone or Heatran + Spikes in order to trap or slowly wear down its checks into range, and can easily snowball out of hand with some support.

Aerodactyl's Taunt 2A set and 3A Roost set is what got it ranked this slate, first being used in NDPL and now slowly getting popularity all around, its high speed letting it outpace Mega Lopunny, Tapu Koko, and Weavile make it great Speed Control, while its defensive utility allowing it to check Fire types such as Heatran, Volcarona, and the on-the-rise Mega Charizard Y lend it niche use on certain teams.

Nihilego is a fearsome offensive threat that can threaten to snowball weakened teams very easily with its combination of Beast Boost + Meteor Beam boosting both its Speed and SpAt at the same time. Being a relatively sturdy Rock type means it can check the rising Zapdos as well, whos offensive sets are extremely threatening to a lot of teams. Furthermore, it takes advantage of less sturdy checks such as Lando being more popular, as it can easily bypass it with minor chip. Offensively inclined teams as a whole are very easily taken advantage off after a Speed Boost as its faster than a lot of common forms of Speed control when boosted.

:ss/tapu-fini:

Tapu Fini, while still great, has fallen out of favour a little with Ash Gren getting worse, a mon that it could always counter consistently, while Weavile, a mon who it can check well enough but was instantly crippled by Knock Off and can fold over very quickly after thatl is on the rise instead. Furthermore, being a momentum slog means offensively inclined teams often look to Rotom-W as a bulky water, and more balanced teams aim towards Toxapex to comfortably deal with the likes of Char Y, Volcarona, and Weavile safely. Overall, Tapu Fini is still an amazing Pokemon, but is simply just a tad bit worse in the current metagame and no longer a step above other bulky waters, and the VR drop signifies that.

:ss/corviknight:

Corviknight has dropped the ball this year and has steadily been on a downtrend, being a poor check to the likes of Weavile and Mega Lopunny, as well as being turned into a Roost bot by the likes of Tapu Lele and Melmetal means it is often easily overwhelmed in matches, and is more looked at as a bandaid option against these threats, hence it dropping two subranks to showcase this deop in viability.

:ss/rillaboom: :ss/tapu-bulu:

Both Grassy Terrain setters have fallen out of favour as of late, with offensive sets for both being walled by metagame staples such as Mega Latias, Mega Scizor, and Zapdos being either forced to U-Turn in the case of Band Rilla or double out with SD Rilla and Bulu, making progress extremely hard to achieve. Tapu Bulu's defensive set on the other hand also does not appreciate the downtrend of both Ash Greninja and Mega Garchomp, two of the main threats it dealt with defensively. Both of these mons have become much more mediocre both offensively and defensively, and thus, both dropped a subrank.

:ss/aegislash:

FINALLY Aegi is gone, this Pokemon does not deserve to be ranked at all, and I am suprised it took this long for it to be URed. Especially in a Weavile metagame, offensive Aegislash make barely any progress, if any at all, and defensive sets are stopped cold by the likes of Gliscor and Toxapex. Furthermore, its lack of recovery make it easily worn down by the things its meant to check defensively.

:ss/rotom-heat: :ss/ribombee:

Who has ever used these mons in a serious tournament setting and actually accomplished anything with them?
 
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Hello. After laddering to 1810 with one unranked Pokemon, I feel that I have enough experience to correctly nominate the pokemon. I'm talking about
Dragonite, from UR to B- or B.

Dragonite's viability is directly tied to its ability, Multiscale. If it's at 100% HP, it will take half the damage from every attacks. With the addition of Heavy-Duty boots, this allows it to switch into F/W/G pokemons like Heatran, Urshifu, and Kartana with the right prediction. Though Dragonite can only switch into these Pokemons temporarily, it separates itself from defensive checks because it is ultimately an offensive pokemon - it has the ability to easily sweep a weakened team with Dragon Dance. This is Dragonite's niche: it compresses the role of both an offensive force and a defensive barrier.

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Roost

This is the set that you want to run when using Dragonite. Dragon Dance and Roost are mandatory for Dragonite's niche. Earthquake is its best offensive move; it allows it to immediately pose a threat to Fire types and is usually the move that sweeps late game. This leaves a slot open. I heavily recommend you go with Ice Punch instead of the obvious Dual Wingbeat. In National Dex, Pokemons like Latias, Garchomp, and Zapdos pose much more of a threat to Dragonite than in a metagame like OU, so being able to hit them for supereffective damage is critical. Furthermore, the usage rate for Buzzwole is also ridiculously low, and Earthquake always 2HKO Volcarona anyway, so you don't lose much from not having Wingbeat.

Using Dragonite:
- Dragonite fits best on Bulky Offense and Offense teams. These teams greatly appreciate the ability to deter away dangerous Fire, Water, and Grass pokemons, allowing you to run extremely offensive pokemons that do not offer any defensive utility.
- Dragonite greatly appreciates hazards to wear down its overtime and let it sweep late-game. Knock Off also helps by removing pesky helmets and boots. Think of pokemons like Landorus-T and Ferrothorn.
- Dragonite forms good cores with offensive pokemons that gradually wear down a team for it to sweep late game, as well as pokemons that share some of Dragonite's defensive burdens. Tapu Koko is a great example of the former, and Melmetal is a great example of the latter.
- Thunder Wave allows Dragonite to do illegal things, like allowing it to beat Fairies that do not possess or have locked into a move that do not deal more than 50% under Multiscale. To do so, keep roosting to fish for full-paras, and use Dragon Dance at 100% HP.

Dealing with Dragonite:
- Fairies are the easiest way in dealing with Dragonite. Clefable is notable for being able to ignore hazard damage and having access to reliable recovery. They must be wary of paralysis, however.
- Pokemons with Ice-Type coverage that do not take supereffective damage from Ice and Ground coverage destroys Dragonite. Examples include Buzzwole, Kyurem.
- Weather that deal gradual damage, namely Sand and Hail, renders Multiscale and therefore Dragonite completely useless. This is worse in NatDex than in OU, for Tyranitar is much, much stronger here.

Final Viability: I think B is a good rank for Dragonite in the NatDex. viability ranking. During my time laddering, I've faced matchups that shouldn't be possible to win against, yet Dragonite's defensive utility kept me in long enough for there to be an opening. Even if Dragonite never gets off a Dragon Dance or even an attack, just being able to Roost on dangerous F/W/G pokemons and having a presence alone are more than enough. For these reasons, I nominate Dragonite from UR to B- or B. i also heavily disagree with the placement for blacephalon, but i digress.

replays, because they are required:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1604680855 (dnite keeps gengar in check throughout the whole game and allows me to win from a tough spot)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1602650562 (dnite checked victini, chunked koko, killed garchomp, and swept late game)
 
Hello! Having laddered with it for about a month now after playing nat dex for a year, I would like to nominate :nihilego: NIHILEGO to B/B- (yes I made a smogon account just for this)

ladder peak1.png


I used this mon on several teams over 3 accounts, and eventually I peaked at 1751, or number 65 on the ladder, with a team that eventually looked like this after several variations: https://pokepast.es/4ee098774d484049 , originally a pretty basic HO that has become a near-mess of cheesy bo1 lure strats that open up Nihilego as much as possible (I know stone edge gyarados looks super dogshit but its to 1v1 kanto zapdos without static procing for my own zap it works promise). However, this team is slightly overkill, and I have found success (1600-1700) with less eccentric teams that contain more standard strategies and sets with Nihilego, such as this one: https://pokepast.es/e4e84d50c4f7328d (tbh any Nihilego set -black sludge, meteor beam, spa beast boost- works here too, I just wanted to try make it more heat/bad).


I believe Nihilego has very good synergy with and a great matchup against the current metagame, especially on Hyper Offense, where it’s defensive capabilities greatly assist the playstyle’s attempts to find setup opportunity.

Metagame
I therefore believe that it should be ranked in B or B- using :gyarados-mega: Mega Gyarados, another HO staple who is in the B tier, as the benchmark. Gyarados’ well placed bulk and nice typing allows it to perform as a bulky setup sweeper in the face of common threats such as :greninja-ash: Ash Greninja and :weavile: Weavile. Nihilego fills a similar role, utilising it’s massive 109/131 special bulk and unique typing to take advantage of the popular :zapdos: Zapdos, :clefable: Clefable, non specs :tapu-koko: Tapu Koko, :charizard-mega-y: Zard Y running air slash instead of scorching sands, :gengar: Gengar, and any variant of :volcarona: Volcarona that isnt hp ground modest. It also has the benefit of matching extremely well against the Zard Y + synthesis defog Kart team which the ladder loves so much right now, as well as sun in general, able to sweep easily once Kartana has been chipped or knocked out, as Kart cannot switch directly into meteor beam and stop Nihilego from outspeeding it after getting a ko.

+1 172 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Ice vs. 44 HP / 128 SpD Kartana: 165-195 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

or maybe even just
+1 172 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Fire vs. 44 HP / 128 SpD Kartana: 660-780 (244.4 - 288.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Nihilego suffers against fatter teams, but I have found it able to acquire a second or third meteor beam boost in the face of pokemon like corviknight or bolt beam mega latias, or toxapex on the switchin in order to break holes in these teams if they lack a chansey.


Hp Ice

Nihilego's stabs are walled by both ground and steel types, and must therefore choose a hidden power type to beat one or the other. The set that I have found that works the best is power herb speed boost with hp ice, (with the other moves being meteor beam, sludge wave, and either power gem or a second coverage move) which takes advantage of the fact that the 3 most common ground types ( :landorus-therian: :gliscor: :garchomp: ), who can stomach a +1 power gem and Ko back with earthquake, are all 4x weak to ice and can be taken out in one hit with hp ice after using meteor beam. :garchomp: Garchomp in particular resists meteor beam and can therefore be sent out directly into Nihilego without needing to revenge kill it, so is even easier to take advantage of with hp ice. Also worth mentioning here is Nihilego’s great speed tier that puts it barely above Garchomp for this to be possible, while also allowing it to outspeed the majority of the metagame (31/37), including all 5 base 100s.

+1 172 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 192 SpD Gliscor: 368-436 (104.2 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1
172 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 416-492 (116.5 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1
172 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 440-520 (115.1 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Synergy


HP Ice Nihilego has several flaws and many counters/checks, but they are worth building for because of how powerful it can be in the endgame. A spikes suicide lead on HO ( :mew: , :greninja: ) can chip down the steel types such as :melmetal: Melmetal, :ferrothorn: Ferrothorn, and :magnezone: Magnezone. One teammate in particular, :tapu-lele: Tapu Lele, is capable of luring several of Nihilegos checks such as the aforementioned steel types as well as others such as :scizor-mega: Mega Scizor, :excadrill: Excadrill, :heatran: Heatran, :tyranitar: Tyranitar, and :mawile-mega: Mega Mawile with any variant that is not choice locked, such as twisted spoon, assault vest, z fight, z psychic, and terrain extender, along with hp fire to fake being scarf to eliminate or damage them enough to cripple their ability to check Nihilego quickly.
Lele’s psychic terrain is also vital for Nihilego to prevent :urshifu-rapid-strike: Urshifu’s aqua jet, :scizor-mega: Mega Scizor’s bullet punch, and :mawile-mega: Mawile’s sucker punch from stopping its sweep, as well as :greninja-ash: Greninjas water shuriken, but it is less important as it will only kill in rain while transformed. :magnezone: Magnezone is another appreciated teammate on more balanced teams for its ability to trap Ferrothorn, choice locked Kart, and Mega Scizor lacking sand tomb, as is :ferrothorn: Ferrothorn and :greninja: :greninja-ash: both Greninjas (while Nihilego checks Clefable for them) for the same reasons that Nihilego appreciates spikes on Hyper Offense.

Hp Fire
Alternatively, you can run hp fire and completely reverse Nihilego's checks. :melmetal: AV Melmetal, :chansey: Chansey, :heatran: spdef Heatran, :toxapex: Toxapex, and :slowking-galar: Slowking-G remain as sturdy switchins to this set and still need extremely high hazard support to break through, but :scizor-mega: Mega Scizor, :ferrothorn: Ferrothorn outside of rain, :magnezone: Magnezone and :mawile-mega: Mega Mawile after some chip, and :excadrill: Excadrill are now nearly setup fodder for Nihilego as all can be KOd after either taking meteor beam themselves or being chipped, at the expense of being unable to reliably stop :landorus-therian: Landorus, :gliscor: Gliscor, and :garchomp: Garchomp from revenge killing it. Lando and Chomp can be taken advantage of through abusing their lack of recovery with more hazards and chip damage over a longer game, meaning the hp fire set is more appropriate on balanced teams. :gliscor: Spdef Gliscor is a difficult roadblock for this set consistently, however, and must be lured with the now declining steel beam :heatran: Heatran or a similar surprise zmove/hp ice lure like Lando.

+1 172 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 200-236 (71.1 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 172 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Fire vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 192-226 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 172 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Scizor-Mega: 292-344 (85.1 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+1 172 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 240-284 (68.1 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 172 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Excadrill: 258-304 (71.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

More Synergy
Another great synergy I have found specifically is with the recently flourishing protean :greninja: Greninja, a great spikes suicide lead itself, and who, similarly to Lele, fakes being another set (ash) to lure :scizor-mega: Mega scizor leads and:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn with hp fire, which is especially beneficial to hp ice Nihilego; it is also able to get the required damage on :melmetal: Melmetal and :chansey: Chansey with low kick (along with taunt to prevent healing) that either Nihilego set can win. With its focus sash intact, it can even sometimes take out :kartana: Kartana. In return, Nihilego wins the game lmao


Bulk

Because Nihilego must drop some spa evs in order to receive a speed boost from beast boost, the remaining 76 evs (or more) can be invested into bulk to live attacks that it would not be expected to:

0 Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 56 Def Nihilego: 302-356 (84.1 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (You aren’t doing much back here on the hp ice set, but it has been relevant in the final few turns of a game where it comes down to this 1v1, and the hp fire set appreciates surviving this to beat Mega Scizor more consistently)

252+ Atk Hawlucha Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 84 Def Nihilego: 265-313 (73.8 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (nihilego always kos back after the spdef drop at +1)

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 96 Def Nihilego: 302-356 (84.1 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (or scarf Urshifu in rain)

252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 44 SpD Nihilego: 300-356 (83.5 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (timid only)

200 SpA Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego: 300-356 (83.5 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (no bulk required against subroost)

Because of the high pressure of HO it is not as difficult as it seems to keep Nihilego at full hp and preserve its ability to live these hits by preventing hazards from going up.

Most of these calcs, however, display physical attacks against Nihilego, and all of them are hardly safe switchins, but there are many safer attacks and Pokemon that Nihilego can switch into in the current meta using its natural special bulk (no investment required) that it can benefit from on both offense and HO:

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego: 39-46 (10.8 - 12.8%) -- possible 8HKO

252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego: 61-72 (16.9 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO (when already locked into moonblast via scarf)

0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego: 84-99 (23.3 - 27.5%) -- 69.3% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego in Sun: 113-133 (31.4 - 37%) -- 80.8% chance to 3HKO

0 SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego in Sun: 45-54 (12.5 - 15%) -- possible 7HKO

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego: 103-123 (28.6 - 34.2%) -- 2.3% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego in Electric Terrain: 121-144 (33.7 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nihilego: 238-282 (66.2 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Flexibility

Finally, another reason I believe Nihilego may be deserving of an higher position than the rest of the C/B- tier is because of its greater flexibility to be used on balance and especially offense than many of the other members of the tier, such as the previously mentioned :gyarados-mega: Mega Gyarados who is exclusive to HO, or :shuckle: Shuckle on webs HO, :shedinja: Shedinja on stall, :ninetales-alola: :arctozolt: :torkoal: :venusaur: all the weather mons, and whatever :heracross-mega: Mega Heracross does (trick room…?). An assault vest or black sludge set makes the most of Nihilego’s special bulk to check several special attackers in the tier, and it provides utility through setting rocks and tspikes and absorbing opposing tspikes for the team, as well as being able to use knock off. The black sludge set can also run pain split which allows it to recover massive hp from :chansey: Chansey and other walls who are common switchins, providing longevity on balance; meanwhile, the AV set works better on offence where teams are not designed for overall longevity anyway. The final set I want to mention is the choice scarf set, which can revenge kill much of the tier (including scarfers such as :landorus-therian: , :tapu-fini: , :victini: , :kyurem: , :tapu-lele: , even the occasional :garchomp: and :xurkitree: )and can fit more coverage than a meteor beam set, with options such as dazzling gleam, grass knot, and thunderbolt being easier to slot on, as well as being able to snowball with special attack beast boosts in a similar way to scarf kartana. These sets work with :magnezone: Magnezone and :tapu-lele: Lele again on these more balanced teams, as well as :heatran: Heatran and :tapu-fini: Fini who are capable of trapping and heavily damaging/taking out :chansey: Chansey and spdef :toxapex: Toxapex for it, while in return it checks :zapdos: Zapdos for them so that Heatran does not have to take unnecessary damage or get paralysed, making every magma storm a coin flip. I did not explore these utilities of Nihilego as much as the meteor beam sweeper role but I have still used them and believe they have a niche.

Conclusion
In conclusion, what holds back Nihilego from being more than a HO move clicker or niche special wall the most is being walled eternally by one of either steel or ground depending on its hidden power choice, as well as most dedicated special walls (:chansey: Chansey, :toxapex: Pex, :slowking-galar: Slowking G, maybe even :tyranitar: Tyranitar) and it is always left needing another coverage option for those neutral to the hidden power, e.g. grass knot for :swampert-mega: Swampert, thunderbolt for spdef :toxapex: Toxapex, I’ve even experimented with acid spray to 1v1 :chansey: Chansey (it worked about once). However, current metagame trends greatly favour Nihilego and its special bulk and typing, as well as its synergy with common meta threats who remove its checks for it, to such an extent that I think it should rise for how well it fills its niche(s).

In short (tl;dr ig), the metagame trends that favour Nihilego are:
:zapdos: Zapdos rising = good for Nihilego because it walls Zap
:greninja-ash: Ash gren falling = less competition for Nihilego in the cleaner/wallbreaker role

:tapu-lele: Lele rising = Nihilego's best teammate is becoming more popular

:charizard-mega-y: + :kartana: this team style rising = good matchup for Nihilego

:greninja: Protean gren rising = good for Nihilego because it likes spikes + surprise hp fires/low kicks

:rillaboom: Rillaboom, Nihilego's best revenge killer, falling = psychic terrain can be kept up more often and Nihilego is less likely to be stopped

:moltres-galar: :moltres: Both moltres’ rising = setup fodder for Nihilego, and walls both if kanto moltres isnt scorching sands


REPLAYS
These are all involving the team I peaked with, using the hidden power ice meteor beam sweeper set on this not-quite-hyper offense, as this is the primary niche I believe Nihilego fills and what it does its best at.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1606713753-mufc854yaz0o22e620c91b3ye6pumcepw
Here a few things are displayed. Firstly, Lele’s ability to lure and take out the Excadrill who would have been a blockade to Nihilegos sweep, although it was scarf which is an unset anyway but he didn’t iron head so we move

Secondly Nihilego shows how it can make use of its insane special bulk, able to setup easily on Moltres despite a flinch.

Thirdly is Nihilego’s cleaning capabilities and powerful speed control in the form of beast boost, knocking out half the opponents team and outpacing Hawlucha in the end. This is also the highest replay I have so kinda proof of peak (I hadn’t started saving replays for this until after the original peak).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1606704549-s14jqv7d44cy3mz0ewb4g1hqqtjirrmpw
Mega Gyarados lures Swampert, the only Nihilego check, with power whip and Nihilego is free to break a massive hole in the opponents team (maybe lucky finding the only Latias on ladder without psyshock).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1603942130-7xvhpzudyprt5sy288m1lfa32m0wl5kpw
Lele lures Ferrothorn, Mega Gyarados tries to lure Swampert but eventually takes it out with Melmetal, Nihilego now has no switchins and cleans up with Zapdos G after surviving a kanto Zapdos weather ball

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1600400363-cpf1mewi297ddnoa7wdizcmkjznq9ekpw
Umbreon and Corv, the only 2 Pokémon able to take a hit from +1 Nihilego (although umbreon probably loses the 1v1) are heavily damaged by Gyarados, and Nihilego is able to win on the spot despite the hax

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1600345712-x20lm84itn673tjtl7kghzsdgjyz8b7pw
Here the calc that allows Nihilego to survive a Hawlucha close combat comes into play, and although the opponent forfeited prematurely, it would still have at least knocked out Hawlucha and heavily damaged gyarados before being KOd.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1600336236-i74oerfu8oq6pqe5228g897v1pg3owzpw
Nihilego is able to take advantage of the element of surprise with hp ice to take out Lando and gain the speed boost necessary to outspeed Eleki and win
 
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Hello, all! I'm Catalisador, NU's premier Torracat maniac and a widely tolerated Roselia fan. I just started playing the metagame a little bit (mainly because I wanted to use Mega Swampert as I've just gotten a shiny one in OR/AS) and have some thoughts to share! I know I'm fairly new to the format, but I believe my current 21 - 1 (~80% GXE) streak seems to speak a tad about the rain playstyle's potential.

:pelipper: :swampert-mega:

The rain archetype in general seems like a very cheap way to earn some easy points on the National Dex OU ladder. Swampert-Mega's rain-boosted Liquidations and coverage Earthquake + Ice Punch makes it a blazingly fast, nearly unresisted wallbreaker with outstanding bulk to survive, if not all, most non-super effective hits. It is only truly checked by the likes of Tangrowth and Slowbro, which, albeit pretty good, don't seem extremely common or splashable.

:barraskewda:

I've been using Barraskewda as a secondary breaker thanks to its superior Speed tier in relation to Swampert's, allowing for an easier late-game check against tricky teams with speed control options like Choice Scarf Kartana.

:crawdaunt:
Nom.: UR -> C+?

Crawdaunt singlehandedly dismantles bulkier structures, specially Stall, with its combination of rain-boosted Crabhammers and Knock Off. Furthermore, Swords Dance makes Aqua Jet a very strong option for sweeping late game against weakened teams, specially when boosted by rain as well. Furthermore, its secondary Dark-type STAB allows for a way to beat rain's (arguably) best wall, Slowbro.

Replay showcasing Crawdaunt breaking Slowbro for a late-game Barraskewda sweep: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1624392974-p521h8xxwt8e5fot93ctaqb7xz55ii1pw
Replay against an annoying stall build with some pretty cool plays lol: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1624314861-sokzpwqgdsxkl12hhibvwcjhcfewf9tpw

:ferrothorn:

Ferrothorn greatly appreciates rain's ability to reduce its glaring Fire-type weakness. Moreover, access to Spikes synergizes immensely with the playstyle's absurdly offensive abusers. It also works as an all-round defensive glue.

:zapdos:

Zapdos is another abuser of rain thanks to its access to powerful STAB Thunder and Hurricane. Furthermore, the potential of making a VoltTurn core with Barraskewda and the bird's ability to chip down potential rain checks (pun intended) such as Tapu Fini and Ferrothorn are immensely appreciated. It also works as a check to Grassy Glide spam, which rain greatly appreciates.

I'd love to hear everybody's thoughts on rain, specially about some of the abusers such as Barraskewda and Crawdaunt :D.
 
:xy/greninja:
Nominating Greninja to A+

Greninja is an excellent Pokemon in the current metagame, and its Protean sets have made it a popular pick, and for good reason. Its variety in sets from Z-Dig, to Z-Low Kick, to Heavy Duty Boots, to Choice Scarf have let it full a variety of roles for whatever its team needs. Greninja is great offensively and has an excellent speed tier, and due to Protean, it is able to get STAB on every single move it uses. It can also do things with its typing, such as block Volt Switch with Spikes, and become resistant to attacks that would normally KO it, which can be game changing. I believe Greninja rewards skillful play and allows for creative team structure, as Greninja has many things teammates can take advantage of. Two of the biggest things it can do is use Spikes, and it can use U-turn. These attributes are incredibly useful for an offensive pokemon, and Greninja can threaten out common defoggers with sets such as Z-Hydro Pump. However, I believe Heavy-Duty Boots Greninja is the best set for it, as it combines all of Greninja's best traits. Its ability to set spikes whilst threatening out Defoggers, Its speed, and Its ability to pivot out of bad matchups. It is also able to set spikes in the face of other Hazards due to Heavy-Duty Boots.

For these reasons, I believe Greninja should be A+ Rank on the Viability Rankings.
 
:ss/blacephalon:
Blacephalon to B-
Blacephalon should rise to B- tier as it performs a better job at sweeping teams late game then some may think, with a monstrous 151 special attack and more than average 107 speed, it can clean up late game with the mix of flamethrower and shadow ball, extrasensory tech, and overheat to pack that bit more of a punch, it also has access to trick which can be used when blacephalon wants to anchor a staller like blissey to stop stalling, accompanied with the awesome ability Beast Boost to increase its special attack to even greater heights, this thing is a monster, however, there are a few drawbacks, for example, it matters when you pull it out as switching it in may cause problems to the likes of blissey while it teleports to something like greninja, you will then be forced to switch to another pokemon and it will risk a potential important pokemon to faint, but overall, Blacephalon is a menace and can do alot of things going for it, and can be as good as the other pokemon in B-.
:mad:
 
I don't know if I can post here without being a super player or anything, but well, here I go.

Is Blacephalon really worth it, then, when it is so easy food for Pursuit? Specially coming from Weavile, which is common and very high in the viability rankings. I guess you can always take advantage of a choice locked-pursuit afterwards, but at the same time you won't be able to get far with Blacephalon as long as Weavile is still around. Just asking.
 
:xy/gyarados-mega:
Nominating Mega Gyarados to B+

I'm a firm believer of the Giant Shrimp. Mega Gyarados vs Stall is an insane match-up, because of it's ability, Mold Breaker. Due to Mold Breaker, You ignore Unaware users and use them as setup fodder. Even Clefable gets trashed by too many Waterfalls. Personally, the set I've been running is this:

What Was He Cooking (
Gyarados-Mega) @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Crunch / Earthquake
- Substitute

This set uses common Pokemon on Stall as setup-fodder. Mega Sableye in particular is an opening for Mega Gyarados to mow down entire teams after a few boosts. Crunch can be used as a Secondary Stab, while Earthquake hits Pex.

Unfortunately, a replay I had of a stall 6-0 is gone now. Needless to say, after coming in on a Mega Sableye who used Protect, Substitute + DD Boosted Waterfalls were too much for the team. Even a defensive Buzzwole couldn't stand up to them.


This goes to show that Mega Gyarados crushes Stall teams, which is a good Pokemon for balanced and offensive teams to have. Thus, I believe it should be raised on the rankings.

Thank you.
 
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I've been doing some digging around and I just wanted to ask a quick question: Where is Mega Venusaur in the rankings? For being such a tanky mon with access to a ton of offensive/support/disabling moves, I find it surprising it's not even listed. Is it unranked? That would be kinda weird considering normal Venusaur is in C.
Normal Venusaur has a completely different niche than Mega Venusaur. While Mega Venusaur is a defensive grass, regular Venusaur is a Sun sweeper.

Furthermore, if you feel like it should be ranked, then go ahead and be the change you want to see in the world! Write a post, share replays of it in action and compare it to the other bulky grasses in the tier, like Ferro and Tang, and see what it does better. The tiering council reviews every nomination, so don't worry about being ignored.
 
I've been doing some digging around and I just wanted to ask a quick question: Where is Mega Venusaur in the rankings? For being such a tanky mon with access to a ton of offensive/support/disabling moves, I find it surprising it's not even listed. Is it unranked? That would be kinda weird considering normal Venusaur is in C.
Mega Venusaur can be good, and is certainly very annoying for me, but I find that it struggles to be a defensive mon due to very low recovery PP and little in the way of utility. In terms of offence, it can still be blanked by a lot of things just through natural bulk, since its got pretty weak stabs, no item, and not great offensive stats.
 
I mean whats the issue Offensive mega venu faces?? 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 116-138 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes its a fantastic option on spikes teams and with magnezone support to trap corvi it has few counters
its good bulk is pretty useful as well
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 161-191 (53.4 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
U can adjust its EVs aswell to make it tankier offering a fine offensive switch to rillaboom is quite nice aswell 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega in Sun: 246-290 (81.7 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
it isnt a zard switch at all but its quite nice
a set of hp fire giga drain sbomb and epower with modest nature and maximum special attack evs
its quite cosumizable ev spread as u wish
while offering an ok offenisve check to serp is great aswell
it is not a A+ level mon but it should be ranked C/C+
Why is not it ranked then?
 
I mean whats the issue Offensive mega venu faces?? 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 116-138 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes its a fantastic option on spikes teams and with magnezone support to trap corvi it has few counters
its good bulk is pretty useful as well
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 161-191 (53.4 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
U can adjust its EVs aswell to make it tankier offering a fine offensive switch to rillaboom is quite nice aswell 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega in Sun: 246-290 (81.7 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
it isnt a zard switch at all but its quite nice
a set of hp fire giga drain sbomb and epower with modest nature and maximum special attack evs
its quite cosumizable ev spread as u wish
while offering an ok offenisve check to serp is great aswell
it is not a A+ level mon but it should be ranked C/C+
Why is not it ranked then?
kart check, serp check, zard check, 1v1s pex...
hey, that's just moltres, and keep in mind moltres is not a very highly rated mon to begin with

EDIT: i wouldn't even say venu is that good vs yard even if it gets in free cause it just has a roll to die w/ rocks up anw
 
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adem

don't save her, she don't wanna be saved
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I mean whats the issue Offensive mega venu faces?? 252+ SpA Venusaur-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 116-138 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes its a fantastic option on spikes teams and with magnezone support to trap corvi it has few counters
its good bulk is pretty useful as well
252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 161-191 (53.4 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
U can adjust its EVs aswell to make it tankier offering a fine offensive switch to rillaboom is quite nice aswell 252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega in Sun: 246-290 (81.7 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
it isnt a zard switch at all but its quite nice
a set of hp fire giga drain sbomb and epower with modest nature and maximum special attack evs
its quite cosumizable ev spread as u wish
while offering an ok offenisve check to serp is great aswell
it is not a A+ level mon but it should be ranked C/C+
Why is not it ranked then?
well i think u kinda just explained why it shouldnt be ranked (at least for an offensive set)
too weak to KO what it needs to without major support and solid predicts, not what an offensive mon should be doing
not bulky enough to check things that a bulky grassy should check
its very slow, which means its quite prediction reliant when dealing with checks
having no recovery at all as a bulky grass kind of sucks balls, it means ur a bad check to like, everything bar serp

fyim including stuff like replays and game analysis is very helpful if you intend to say a mon should be ranked higher, and currently your post seems to say the opposite.

I've been doing some digging around and I just wanted to ask a quick question: Where is Mega Venusaur in the rankings? For being such a tanky mon with access to a ton of offensive/support/disabling moves, I find it surprising it's not even listed. Is it unranked? That would be kinda weird considering normal Venusaur is in C.
as the others have said before, your sole recovery being synthesis and maybe leech seed is horrible for a mon like mega venu, and adding on, being horribly spikes weak and not really having much in terms of pressuring switchs ins as well as 4mss (u drop hp fire u cant break zor, u drop ep u cant break tran, u drop leech ur recovery is rlly mediocre). in terms of support/disabling moves, that just adds on tbh, its not easy to fit in new stuff into its moveset. add on the fact its also pretty much forced to recover every single time it switches in to most of the stuff it switches into, makes it a relatively mediocre defensive mon.
 
kart check, serp check, zard check, 1v1s pex...
hey, that's just moltres, and keep in mind moltres is not a very highly rated mon to begin with

EDIT: i wouldn't even say venu is that good vs yard even if it gets in free cause it just has a roll to die w/ rocks up anw
Never said venu is good vs zard but u can give it 140+ evs on hp and it vl take it u vl be sacrificing a bit of speed though
 
well i think u kinda just explained why it shouldnt be ranked (at least for an offensive set)
too weak to KO what it needs to without major support and solid predicts, not what an offensive mon should be doing
not bulky enough to check things that a bulky grassy should check
its very slow, which means its quite prediction reliant when dealing with checks
having no recovery at all as a bulky grass kind of sucks balls, it means ur a bad check to like, everything bar serp

fyim including stuff like replays and game analysis is very helpful if you intend to say a mon should be ranked higher, and currently your post seems to say the opposite.



as the others have said before, your sole recovery being synthesis and maybe leech seed is horrible for a mon like mega venu, and adding on, being horribly spikes weak and not really having much in terms of pressuring switchs ins as well as 4mss (u drop hp fire u cant break zor, u drop ep u cant break tran, u drop leech ur recovery is rlly mediocre). in terms of support/disabling moves, that just adds on tbh, its not easy to fit in new stuff into its moveset. add on the fact its also pretty much forced to recover every single time it switches in to most of the stuff it switches into, makes it a relatively mediocre defensive mon.
Its an underrated offensive mon though its not like it needs spikes just having pex below 87.5%+srock and it is not like spikes is the hardest thing to fit

bruh 252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 168 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 288-342 (83.9 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
u aint taking it well thought it was quite cool though

the fact is u wall not just serp u wall a lot of excellent other mons as well most notably tapu fini rillaboom and with 0 HP 0 defense u still take 2 mega lop returns which is huge also u take knock offs for breakfast

Also this is not a vr post to see a pokemon that does so well why is it not ranked is my question
 

adem

don't save her, she don't wanna be saved
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Its an underrated offensive mon though its not like it needs spikes just having pex below 87.5%+srock and it is not like spikes is the hardest thing to fit

bruh 252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 168 HP / 172+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 288-342 (83.9 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
u aint taking it well thought it was quite cool though

the fact is u wall not just serp u wall a lot of excellent other mons as well most notably tapu fini rillaboom and with 0 HP 0 defense u still take 2 mega lop returns which is huge also u take knock offs for breakfast

Also this is not a vr post to see a pokemon that does so well why is it not ranked is my question
having pex below 87% basically means having pex below 57% (regen), and then you have to factor in sludge (its most common item), so that's more like having pex below 50% pretty much, which is extremely hard to do easily, and consistently. and yes, while spikes is not that hard to fit (well kinda with mvenu means ferro is hard to slot on easily, gren, mew, and skarm are basically ur only options

also u are calcing jolly mmedi, ada changes that a lot, rocks changes that, also if ur running defensive then ur not running offensive

rillaboom is not good in this current meta, there's a reason it sees pretty much no use in tour play, and little use in ladder play, far from an excellent mon. fini is notable yes, but the moment its madness shit gets hard, altho i will let those 2 pass. I'm ns how you got the 2 mlop returns since:

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 144-171 (47.8 - 56.8%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO

unless u have heavy investment, then u have to think about things like having some speed invest since your so immensely slow.
and if ur asking why its not ranked, u can take a look a few pages back at why it was unranked and make a conclusion from there, but it simply isn't viable and consistent enough in practice.
 
:ss/polteageist:
From UR -> C / B-

Polteageist serves as a dangerous late game sweeper with Shell Smash and Ghost STAB, and can dent Normal-types with Stored Power and can Strength Sap Pokémon that it would struggle with and can give it more longevity. It shreds through Stall and Fat, and can even beat Dark-types like Tyranitar and Weavile with hazard support, and with Psychic Terrain support, becomes neigh unstoppable. It can surprisingly also eat strong special moves like Tapu Koko's Thunderbolt with Specs, Greninja's Hydro Pump, and Scarf Tapu Lele's Psychic.

White Herb is the standard item you would place on it to negate the Defense drops from Shell Smash, but you can try out Focus Sash and Weak Armor to boost Stored Power and to immediately threaten Pokémon, or can use Ghostium Z to muscle through Pokémon like Ferrothorn, Mega Sableye, and Heatran. You also can eat Knock Off from defensive Pokémon like Clefable, Mega Sableye, and Ferrothorn.

Polteageist @ White Herb
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Shadow Ball
- Giga Drain / Strength Sap
- Stored Power

The standard set for Polteageist, nothing to explain here.

Polteageist @ Focus Sash
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Shadow Ball
- Giga Drain
- Stored Power

This set uses Focus Sash and Weak Armor to boost Polteageist's Speed after being hit by a physical attack, letting it Shell Smash and fire off strong Shadow Balls and Stored Powers. Giga Drain is there to hit Dark-types like Tyranitar and Weavile, who both eat a Shadow Ball.

Polteageist @ Ghostium Z / Grassium Z
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Shadow Ball
- Stored Power
- Strength Sap / Giga Drain

Ghostium Z, as mentioned, beats Pokémon that would otherwise live Polteageist's boosted attacks, like Heatran, Ferrothorn, Mega Sableye, and Hippowdon, while Grassium Z allows you to snipe Tyranitar, but it can easily be worn down as the game progresses.

EDIT: solar also mentioned z strength sap, which boosts your defense by 1 stage. do with that as you will


Calculations
+2 252 SpA Polteageist Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 352-415 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Polteageist Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Hippowdon: 474-558 (112.8 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Polteageist Bloom Doom (140 BP) vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 416-490 (114.6 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Polteageist Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 304-358 (108.1 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Polteageist Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Heatran: 414-487 (107.2 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Polteageist Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 8 HP / 28 SpD Hydreigon: 282-333 (86.2 - 101.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Polteageist Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 349-412 (115.1 - 135.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Polteageist Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 244 HP / 244 SpD Gliscor: 298-351 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+4 252 SpA Polteageist Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 550-648 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Polteageist Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 244 SpD Assault Vest Melmetal: 372-438 (90.5 - 106.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Spikes can enlarge the calculations even further, but I'm pretty sure you would know what they would look like.


Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1699284812-54fkc9ub2o9tjaqp0fwbymqfjn8sah9pw - Here, I face a Double Dance Mega Aggron team. I lead with my Ninetales-Alola to get up Aurora Veil, in where his Volcarona clicks Mystical Fire. I go into Volcarona, then into Nihilego, to try to bait in Seismitoad. When the Seismitoad comes out, my Polteageist uses Shell Smash twice and obliterates almost all of his team. Ignore the Mega-Aggron part; I was unaware of some stuff due to me being busy while doing this match.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1698910709-chl88fxd5z2lku5yaejzgt2meedhzdepw - Here, I face a Sticky Web team. I lead off with my Mew to get hazards up, only to get denied by a Magic Coat from Araquanid. I go into Tapu Lele, predicting a Sticky Web, in which I go into Hawlucha to use Acrobatics on it, to see if it has Focus Sash. After my Hawlucha is knocked out by Liquidation, I got in Polteageist and get up a Shell Smash; where it proceeds to obliterate the other team with Stored Power; and in Kartana's case, Shadow Ball.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1699321195-gyazb9p99hca3m8vh014jjrjwfe1a4xpw - From my Round 3 National Dex Last Chance match, Polteageist manages to eat a Thunderbolt from Tapu Koko, and also live a Greninja's Water Shuriken. It kills the Tapu Koko and dents the Greninja, and uses Strength Sap on the Landorus-Therian on the switch. It then proceeds to also kill the Landorus-Therian, the Greninja, and the Serperior.

Other Replays
Credit to adem for these replays!
https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen8nationaldex-1698542671-86m18s0adtauijhfyautawvgwm0bvogpw - After Cloyster got rid of Tyranitar, Polteageist sweeped the opponents team.

https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen8nationaldex-1704103179-fc6b5yitkkegcqg90yossnnqn7lt1wzpw - Same thing basically, Tapu Lele getting rid of Tyranitar, and letting Polteageist clean it up from there.


Besides that, here are my thoughts on some Pokémon.
:hippowdon: - B- -> B+
Amazing wall, checks Pokémon like Tapu Koko, Volcarona, and Heatran, and is a very good pick on Fat playstyles.

:deoxys-defense: - B -> B+
Cosmic Power + Fast Taunt + Pressure = Annoying. Can be used as a Spiker, but I wouldn't recommend it as the Cosmic Power set is superior.

:tapu-lele: A -> A+
OHKOs and 2HKOs the entire tier, also the best Scarfer in the tier right now, denying priority is huge and has strong moves to back it up. Taunt w/ Twisted Spoon has been a favorite of mine as of late, due to how it takes advantage of its checks.

:jirachi: - B -> B-
What does this do besides clicking Healing Wish and Iron Head? Better revenge killers are available, and Stealth Rock Jirachi is beat by a lot of Pokémon in the tier.

:kommo-o: B+ -> B
Clangorous Soul set is unreliable, cannot lay a finger on a bulky Fairy unless you are DD Poisonium. The Stealth Rock set is okay.

:slowbro: A- -> B+
For the love of God, just drop this. 2HKO'd or OHKO'd by every neutral or super effective special hit in the metagame, and is just mediocre right now.

:urshifu-rapid-strike:- B+ -> B
Contact. That's the reason. Protective Pads + Taunt can do it some favors, but loses out on the power boost from Choice Band or the speed boost from Choice Scarf.

my fingers hurt after typing this ow
and if you build a team with polteageist send it to me!
 
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:sm/scizor-mega:

Nominating Mega Scizor from A to A+

Mega Scizor's (MSciz) elite typing, favorable MUs vs the 2 best scarfers in the tier in Kartana and Lele, as well as checking the omnipresent MLati and Weav allow it to serve as one of the best mons offensively and defensively in any given matchup.

Sets

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 40 Atk / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sand Tomb
- Bullet Punch
- Roost
- Swords Dance

The offensive Sand Tomb set utilizes Sand Tomb to exploit Tran and Specs Zone, the 2 best answers to regular defensive MSciz while also beating Toxapex. Despite the investment drawn away from its bulk, MSciz's superb typing and natural physical bulk allow it to still effectively check MLati, Weav, Scarf Kart, Scarf Lele, Clefable, and soft-check MLop among others. This set can still use its bulk to set up freely against Glisc, Lando, Fini, wispless Rotom-Wash, and Hippo.


Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 244 SpD
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance
- Roost

Although defensive MSciz has largely fallen out of favor, this set functions similar to the set mentioned above. It notably serves as a pivot with U-Turn with the increased bulk allow it to consistently check all non-CM Lele variants, all non-SD Kart variants, MLati, Weav, and check MLop better. The increased spdef also gives a more consistent matchup vs Clefable. This set maintains the threat of cleaning up vs weakened teams despite not being able to hit Heatran unlike its Sand Tomb counterpart.


Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 108 HP / 252 Atk / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dual Wingbeat
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Swords Dance

Figured I'd give this set a mention, all-out attack investment to serve as a cleaner/breaker with solid bulk. This set is used effectively on HO that appreciate its ability to check MLop, scarf Kart, and scarf Lele which give HO trouble.

It's common knowledge what MSciz will do, but it can still be incredibly hard to play around and will always be something in the back of a builder's mind when constructing a team. An uncanny ability to compress a check to many premier offensive threats is invaluable to many archetypes, from HO to Balance. Despite all the defensive utility MSciz possesses, it will always double as a potent wincon that can and will SD 3x and proceed to BP your entire team down.

while im here, HIPPO TO B+
 

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