Resource National Dex Viability Rankings v2



from ur to c

WHY IS MAERO NOT IN THE VR, idk what to begin, faster than mega lop (resists fake out too), has good coverage that complements both stabs, not to mention that hits hard, maero power is like non-banded ttar because of the similar atk stat and also the stabs with similar power, aslo its typing allows it to soft wall mons such as rona with hp ground and zard y with scorching sands and kills them thanks to his stabs, he aslo has a good movepool outside of stabs, your choice of moves can be surprising, you killed a gliscor with ice fang who stayed on you thinking u can't hurt too badly, a mciz switches on a fire fang, and the other moves are useful too, a lot of things don't feel safe when maero is on the field with him (specially if you revealed that you have a coverage move) then click pursuit, congratz, one of the opposing mons got killed/chipped, (you could remove pult with this method if it didn't get a dd) or roost which could help you heal, also dd might be good for a surprising sweep but some people told me that dd is bad so i don't suggest it, the mon has weaknesses such as not hitting hard enough, dies to every viable priority attack in this tier, and most notable and famous, a rock weakness, but those could be played around with teambuilding and any team support arranging from defog to spikes to psychic terrain and more and if it wasn't for the downsides, i would have suggested this thing to be b or b+ or something like that, also maero is faster than mega lop which means that this thing could help a lot of slower breakers, finally here is the calcs and replays to show you that this thing is deserves a spot on the meta.

defensive calcs:

+2 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 192-227 (63.7 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega in Sun: 134-158 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 164-194 (54.4 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

offensive calcs:

252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Lele: 222-264 (79 - 93.9%) -- approx. 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Scizor-Mega: 256-304 (74.6 - 88.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragapult: 294-348 (92.7 - 109.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Toxapex: 146-172 (48 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 106-125 (27.6 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 111-131 (28.7 - 33.9%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

this thing is kinda weak but with some spikes and it gonna do a nasty sweep without needing setup, also pursuit helps mons who struggle with things that maero scares out could take advantage of his pursuit support.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1514768904
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1514755783
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1514727371
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1519189314
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1515381702
 

R8

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Nah, honestly in a metagame begging for speed control options, M-Aero probably deserves a place in the VR imo. The DD set is dog because it is weak and dies to every priority ever *while* facing severe competition from other megas on HO, however its 3a/4a sets def have potential (or even taunt roost) thanks to its speed tier - as it outspeed MLop without being a scarfer - and cool defensive utility, and even was used in ndpl with a fair amount of success, like there:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1449876429-5gk2kjpbxrkt59zji7juzz1fq5rjodjpw
 

Kyo

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Nah, honestly in a metagame begging for speed control options, M-Aero probably deserves a place in the VR imo. The DD set is dog because it is weak and dies to every priority ever *while* facing severe competition from other megas on HO, however its 3a/4a sets def have potential (or even taunt roost) thanks to its speed tier - as it outspeed MLop without being a scarfer - and cool defensive utility, and even was used in ndpl with a fair amount of success, like there:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1449876429-5gk2kjpbxrkt59zji7juzz1fq5rjodjpw
Doesn't Lop win this endgame but like... easier? :smogduck:
 
Why is zard x so low I would just like to get an answer
Mega Charizard X struggles to break bulky water types like Slowbro, max Def Toxapex and Alomomola and bulky Ground types like Landorus and Hippowdon, it takes a ton of damage from Stealth Rocks and is outclased by other Dd users like Dragapult and Mega Gyarados and Victini and Heatran are better Fire type wallbreakers.
 
While I am not an amazing player I still wanted to post this nom
:zapdos: to A
So I am going to list some of the positive traits of Zapdos first
Zapdos is a mon that has some good bulk while still being able to deal some damage its most common set is the defog set which is this Untitled 13 (pokepast.es) now this set has some alternative options such as Discharge instead of Volt Switch or Hurricane instead of Heat Wave. Some of Zapdos's good matchups are against mons like Mega Scizor and Mega Lopunny. But if you run hurricane instead of heat wave you might have a bit of trouble against Mega Scizor so thats why I like using heat wave. Heat Wave is also nice for Ferrothorn some versions of this set run Hidden Power Ice to make Zapdos's bad matchup against Lando-T, Garchomp and Gliscor a good matchup if it can catch them off guard with HP Ice.

Now the next set is the offensive set for Rain Untitled 13 (pokepast.es) . This set leans to be more offense by using thunder and hurricane because both of those are 100% accurate in rain and removing defog to fit in weather ball. Weather Ball is really good for Zapdos in rain because it helps Zapdos hit the targets that get hit with HP Ice along with hitting stuff like Tyranitar and Heatran.

Now there are two metagame trends that I want to talk about that help Zapdos in this metagame.
Now the first one is the rise of Magnezone although this does not directly affect Zapdos it helps Zapdos by making its biggest competition Corviknight worse Corviknight is a flying type defogger that gets trapped by Magnezone and that has lowered Corviknight's viability in this metagame so having a flying type defogger that doesn't get trapped by Magnezone is pretty nice.
The second is the rise of Mega Lopunny Zapdos counters this thing pretty nicely apart from niche Triple Axel sets that will end up with Lopunny having a high chance of being paralyzed by Zapdos's Static ability.

I think Zapdos is currently on par with Corviknight in this current metagame so if Corviknight is in A tier I feel like Zapdos should be too
 
DROPS:

MAWILE-MEGA from A+ to A-

With Offense rampaging in the metagame recently, Mawile has had a much harder time getting in and safely threaten stuff than ever before.
The prominence of Lopunny also means that a lot of teams are going to pack contact punish in their slots, which makes Mawile even harder to use.
In addition to that, as a slow wallbreaker in a fast meta, Sucker Punch is not an ideal priority to pack, as a lot of common mons found on these offensive structure either resist it, or outright negate it (such as Lopunny, Tapu Lele, Greninja, Tapu Koko, Diancie-Mega, with an honorary mention going to Melmetal), and opportunities to setup a Swords Dance are very rare.
I do not think dropping a single tier to A would be enough for Mawile, as other mons in the tier have seen a lot more success recently. (Scizor-Mega, Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko and Serperior all stand out to me as vastly better mons than Mawile).

CORVIKNIGHT from A to B+

Corvinkinght has been falling down for a while now, its main problems being that it is exceedingly easy to pressure, and kinda being a fake check to most things its trying to answer. Weavile reliabliy 2HKOs most spreads with banded Triple Axel while Corviknight is not able to KO back without packing Body Press, a very uncommon and, usually, tech choice, Kartana can setup Swords Dance and remove Corviknight with Fightinium Z after minimal chip, Kyurem can just wail on it and fish for freezes or setup Dragon Dances. This unreliability as a check to anything also feeds his problem of just not being that good of a fogger, as its just going to be using Roost most of the time.
Lastly, Corviknight will most likely be heavily chipped even by Landorus, the most common rocker in the tier, due to it slotting Rocky Helmet very often as its item, making U-Turning on it painful, having to switch on Rocks while not packing HDB, getting Smacked Down, and potentially losing its item due to Knock Off.
Same as with Mawile, I do not think a single drop would reflect Corviknight's position in the metagame well enough, as every A mon performs really well at the moment.

RISES:

URSHIFU-RS from B to B+

Urshifu-RS has a few unique traits that make it a compelling pick on offensive structures, with both Scarf and Band sets performing quite well.
Its surprisingly decent physical bulk, along with its typing, makes it one of a few select viable aswers for offense to an opposing Weavile.
Shifu's speed tier is also very nice, outspeeding Landorus, Tapu Lele, Kyurem and anything lower (namely the bunch of mons that like to hit 279 spe to outspeed timid Heatran) while being also able to severely threaten if not outright OHKO most of these mons.
This mon also makes an excellent pair with the already amazing Offensive Zapdos, as its presence on the field baits in bulky waters such as Toxapex and Tapu Fini, only for them to eat a U-Turn and be confronted by a powerful Zapdos. Defensively, Zapdos can be very useful as a Scarf Kartana answer for Scarf Urshifu, while Shifu can take on Weavile in the short term for Zapdos.
Surging Strikes, albeit being a double edged sword due to the ever common contact punishes, is an amazing move, often being able to deal damage through Substitutes, immunity to intimidate, and anti-lead potential due to it breaking Focus Sash.
However, the presence of said bulky waters prevents it from truly shining, and as such I'm only confident in suggesting a raise of a single tier to B+.

HAWLUCHA from B+ to A-

Hawlucha is one of the best offense killers in the tier. Its bulk after a seed pop + screens is very respectable, making it hard to deny it one Swords Dance at the very least. This, combined with the high base damage of both of its STABs of choice, and the versatility of its last move slot, can lead to quite a few wins on team preview. Substitute lets Lucha set multiple dances up vs Toxic Landorus and avoid flinches from Lopunny's Fake Outs, while Stone Edge (which probably is the best choice in the current meta) lets it handle Zapdos without it even risking paralysis.
While this mon is very one dimensional, and even considerable dead weight in some MUs, I do think this mon outshines its B+ fellows by a wide enough margin that it should be considered for a raise, even tho it might not have the same consistency and reliability of other A- mons.

MELMETAL from A- to A

One of the reasons Mawile has been falling off, at least IMO, is that Melmetal is becoming more and more of a force in the metagame, both competing with it as a potent wallbreaking steel type, and as a potential Weavile answer. And winning in both cathegories.
Boasting monstrous bulk and breaking potential, this mon also has a myriad of diffenet sets that it can viably run due to it being able to carry an item.
Protective Pads denies any RH chip and makes Double Iron Bash even more threatening, while letting it carry status moves to cripple most mons that would like to switch into it, like Thunder Wave for incoming Heatrans and general Para/Flinch utility, or Toxic for Zapdos and Rotom-Wash.
Assault Vest lets it become one of the very best tanks in the game, letting it handle both physical and special threats (Tapu Lele, Weavile, Kyurem, Serperior, Latias-Mega and Diancie-Mega all have to be very careful when deciding what to click when there is this mon in the opposing team) incredibly well in the short term while also applying huge pressure to the opponent, at the cost of taking Helmet Chip and not being able to cripple its best switchins.
Band and Leftovers, while more niche, are still viable options on some teams and can really throw off opponents expecting one of the more popular sets.
All in all, Melmetal outshines every other A- mon, and even some in A tier, due to its versatility and power.

ZAPDOS from A- to A

Offensive Zapdos stands out to me as a great inclusion to a lot of offensive teams. Specifically its Z-Hurricane set with dual Electric STAB.
Its role can be interpreted as a a slower, but bulkier and stronger Tapu Koko, without having to rely on excessive amounts of prediction due to it not needing to be choiced to punch serious holes into teams.
Its defensive typing is also very valuable, as being able to switch into most Ground-types (most Gliscors and Landos) as an Electric-type and applying pressure is incredibly valuable, as is resisting Steel (Melmetal, Magnezone, Scizor) and Grass (Serperior can't even Glare, Kartana).
All of this utility combined with its offensive presence wannat a raise to A, similarly to Melmetal.

RANDOM THOUGHTS:
Clef is getting better due to its inclusion in more offensive teams with somthing like LOrb or Healing Wish, but I'm not confident in saying it deserves its S rank back just yet.
I haven't seen Tyranitar-Mega around in a while, and I have a feeling it should maybe drop a tier, but I have no argument as to why.
Regarding S ranks, I feel like Lando and Heatran should swap places once more maybe, but again I have no clear reason why, just I feeling I got for playing the game.
 

Solaros & Lunaris

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:ss/nihilego:
Nihilego from UR to C

Nihilego is the best Meteor Beam user in the tier, and with the dearth of true Rock-resists, this is a very valuable niche. In addition, Beast Boost can allow Nihilego to quickly accrue Special Attack or Speed boosts, leading to lose-lose scenarios for the opponent. Its high Speed and great special bulk let it check miscellaneous threats like non-Scorching Sands Mega Charizard Y, while its Toxic immunity and Fairy resistance allows it to come into battle very easily. Finally, Nihilego has two extremely flexible moveslots—while Grass Knot and Hidden Power Fire are the best offensive options, Power Gem, Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes, Knock Off, Thunder Wave, and Pain Split are all worth considering. In the replay below, because catgirl meows doesn’t have any Rock-resists, pannuracotta is able to win just because Mega Scizor chipped Heatran into +1 Meteor Beam. (Nihilego would’ve claimed all 6 from there had catgirl meows not forfeited.)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1524814986-aj31mz4p9oav9zblfs63eshceaqmmyjpw

Edit: Also som added thoughts about the VR since we’re changing it soon

:mawile-mega: and :melmetal: to A: not necessarily pairing these two together but their placement is definitely relevant to each other. melmetal is just a much more splashable Steel since mawile has to fight for the mega slot. However, both 4a mawile and melmetal have no switch-ins and the former can easily take advantage of weavile if in good condition, whilst melm usually has to concede its pads/av/chople to check it.

:corviknight: to B+: yeah corviknight bashing but this mon only checks things on paper and in reality is deadweight without an irl crystal ball if you face a magnezone team. sub bulk up is def worth a try tho since its quite strong against rotom-w users.

:scizor-mega: to A+: actually checks things that corviknight wants to and can punish tran/pex/zone with sand tomb. can feel like a fake check to mons like lele and kyurem but staving thm off is usually enough for the teams it fits on. hates the rise of offensive zapdos but snart play can help with that.

:serperior: to A-: not a knock against serperior but it kinda sticks out in a, sub sets are still annoyed by weavile while taunt sets i feel need to be more reckless to accomplish things sometimes. this is still a super annoying mon tho so it shouldn’t go lower than a-.

:greninja: to A: crazy offensive threat who sets spikes so its never really deadweight even if you face something like pex. i think not losing momentum is very important in this meta and greninja is smth that keeps it very easily. likewise ashgren should be a- since so many people dlap fini or pex on and relax about it.

:zapdos: to A: offzap is crazy lol im pretty sure its only bwlanced by like ferrothorn and hurricane not hitting. see the posts above for more info.

:urshifu-rapid-strike: to B+: cool breaker as long as it doesn’t load into pex or 30 helmet mons. unlike ashgren it can actually drop fini with 2 ccs + rocks and access to uturn and aqua jet means voltturn loves it. pads taunt is a fine set but you really miss the power so you really need to make the most of taunt against walls.
 
Last edited:

pannu

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Hey everyone, the council has decided that its time for a VR update and as such we will be having a vote sometime this weekend, if yall have any takes you wanna post make sure to do so! Im gonna post some personal VR noms but ill probably make a second post sometime later today/this week that includes council noms.

:heatran: -> S-
:landorus-therian: -> S

Following a metagame discussion post i made where i asked a bunch of people to post their top 10 pokemon in the tier at the moment, a majority of people put Landorus-T as number one and Heatran lower than it, and i think the VR should reflect that.

Now, why did people say that Lando is better then tran? i think there's a few reasons, the rise of OffSciz and people prepping so hard for Timid Z tran that it cant really put in work anymore, for example if you look at the current samples most of them feature 2-3 pokemon which handle heatran and alot of faster threats to revenge it, the surprise factor of timid tran has also kinda disappeared, most ppl creep it w/ their gliscors and run more bulk on their landos/finis. I just dont think that Heatran is strong enough to define itself as the best mon in the tier anymore. On the other hand, lando directly benefits from not having to put so many evs in speed, as when its putting most of its EVs in defense or spdef it becomes really though to break through. intimidate and rocky helmet are also fantastic tools in a mostly physical meta and even sets like Choice Scarf and SD Z move are seeing a bit of a resurgence in popularity and viability. i think these two should be swapped.

Those two were kinda hand-in-hand so i covered them in the same part, however i wanna discuss some rises now.

:Deoxys-defense: -> substantial raise

Deoxys-D is an incredibly threatening wincondition in the current meta, alongside entry hazards and especially tspikes/spikes it can be a real nuisance for teams to beat and once its set up it can sometimes just straight up win unless the opponent is packing some sort of counterplay to it, further more even in games where it wont automatically win it has some useable defensive utility and can easily wear down teams for its teammates to clean up, as such i think that deo-d is one of the most potent winconditions in the tier rn and should rise, maybe to B+?

:Scizor-mega: -> A+

This thing is insane, the rise of OffSciz (fast adamant sandtomb sciz) has honestly cemented this thing as a top tier threat in my opinion, being able to handle some of its best checks, a good example is this game i played W1 for a discord tour, where my msciz trapped + removed full physdef toxapex (avoids burn thnx to misty terrain, fini is an amazing teammate) and magnezone (has to be scarf to outspeed = cannot OHKO with HP fire), multiple times on ladder using this set ive just raw sandtombed into an opposing magnezone and won because of it. I feel like it forcing magnezone to use scarf is a major thing, as i believe that scarf magnezone is a defining set in the current ND meta. Furthermore, it being able to remove toxapex, magnezone, and heatran greatly enables other pokemon like Ash-Greninja, Ferrothorn, SD kartana, or Clefable. Its not frail like usual SD 3a scizors you'd see on HO either, so it can actually act as a steel-type and switch into pokemon like tapu lele, mega latias, clefable, or kartana. Overall i just think this thing is an insane presence in the current meta and it should def rise to A+, second best mega in the tier besides mlop imho.

:Greninja: -> A

This thing is an INSANE tool for offense teams RN, its moveset is incredibly adaptable on a team-by-team basis, weak to pex? Z dig. no SD gliscor answer? corv + boots icebeam gren. chansey weak? Z low kick, just wanna get up hazards? Expert Belt. Greninja can do almost anything, and it has an insane amount of good tools in it toolsbox, notably spikes; here are two games from teamballo where protgren gets a spike up early vs offense which causes its teammates to win, in the first game weakening ferro/tran into lele range, and in the second putting koko into range of moonblast + sand and two gren icebeams respectively, massive rolls as those two where the biggest threats to my team. Super crazy mon that enables offense like crazy and it should be A to reflect that.

:charizard-mega-y: -> B+

I think that zardy is a super underrated mega RN, it can be incredibly difficult to switch into and its few answers get checked very easily with good team support. Notably, i think its one of the best fat cteams in the tier (nd money tour r3- i load zardy up VS xenqt (known for mostly using stall) and load a 6-0 mu bcuz his team cant handle it) Fellow council guy Kyo is huge on it too, Heres a replay of him using it in SSNL where his opp is forced to play a sack game vs zardy and he cannot reliably deal with it. Weather ball variants, while not my favourite, are also an insane cteam against rain teams, as pelipper cant safely switch into rain boosted weather balls coming from its huge spa stat


for drops:

:Corviknight: -> substantial drop

face it, this pokemon is goddamn AWFUL in the current meta. The most common rock setters all beat it, its not strong enough to handle the special psychic- and fairy-types that are in the tier rn, like lele, cm clef, or mdia, as they all pack coverage for it. most of the physical breakers even only need minimal chip to be able to 2hko it. not even mentioning Magnezone, which is a hard counter to corv and invalidates its existence in any game, you cant even use shed shell because half of the mons it checks use knock off. Corviknight is inconsistent and needs to drop into somewhere between A- and B IMO.

:excadrill: -> C

ive been experimenting a lot with sand recently and i, unfortunately, came to the conclusion that excadrill sucks, its got a terrible defensive profile, doesnt check anything you want either your steel or ground to check, loses to everything in that category bar moonblast twave rocks clef actually. it struggles to break thanks to the plethora of common physdef walls in the tier rn, slowbro, lando-t, rotom-w, etc. and its also terrible hazard removal. I am probably natdex's biggest sand enjoyed so it hurts to say but this playstyle is entirely dead and unviable excadril sucks rip bozo !!!


also fwiw irt to ganj's post i agree that urshi-rs should rise and mmaw should drop.
 
So uhm
I should talk about some drops and rises maybe

:Slowbro: From A to B+
I am not saying that this is very bad or smth, it is still a solid :lopunny-mega: answer (guess that is enough because Lop is shit dominating and shifting the entire metagame)
I would drop this because it is firstly outclassed by :Tapu-Fini: and :Toxapex: as a whole in the bulky water role:
- Both are a reliable answer to :Weavile:, also one of the metagame defining mon, which :Slowbro: Completely fails against(Well, unless you bring this heat, of course)
Take this game for example, at turn 7 :Chansey: is forced in front of :Weavile: to absorb Knock so the :Slowbro: is healthy to answer:Lopunny-mega: later, which leads to :Chansey: being much weaker defensively
Also, :Tapu-Fini: can provide much better utility to offensive teams due to Misty terrains preventing burns, being a defogger, taunter, nature madness, and potential knock, While :Toxapex: can spread status, Hazing potential set-up sweeper setting up in front of its face, and also potential knock as well.
:Slowbro: only can only do future sight support, which most offensive teams doesn't need(tbh, it doesn't force too much switch) and pivoting(most teams has volt turn support anyway)
Also slowbro fails walling set-up sweeper that both :Tapu-Fini: and :Toxapex: can switch in at least once: :volcarona: is once of them
I won't say that :slowbro: is bad but being a Bulky Water and a Physical wall that cannot answer regular band :Weavile: hurts, you will expect more from your water
Calc doesn't lie btw

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 306-360 (77.6 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:Weavile: is very popular rn as it provides invaluable knock support, and the ability to fit on every style of teams, bring a great revenge killer, so i guess that :Slowbro: should stay there for a long time

Is there is any other mons worth mentioning i may talk about it later
 
:Slowbro: From A to B+
Slowbro checks key threats that make it a great wall and pivot. And unlike Fini and Pex, Teleport and Future Sight let it maintain momentum. It's not a great Weavile deterrent, but Rocky Helm can punish triple axel and Colbur Sets can lure and remove it. I also don't agree Fini being a good Weavile answer as it loses leftovers and gets worn down really quickly as a result. Slowbro still checks MLop, Garchomp, MMedi and soft checks other threats so I feel it's fine where it is.

Now for my noms

corviknight.png
-> B+/B
Echoing the above sentiments. The nom looks harsh but let's face it. Corv is much too passive and exploitable in this metagame and that's without considering Magnezone. When Mag is present Corv is basically helpless and has to walk on eggshells to not get trapped and removed. This puts the Corv user on the back foot all the time. It fails to check relevant threats well enough and there are simply better flying types. Checks some stuff okay like Rilla but Rilla sucks lol so it's getting hard to justify a teamslot for this thing.

deoxys-defense.png-> B+
I both love and hate that this was discovered lol. DeoD is pretty scary as a wincon and continues to prove its place is deserved. Needing far fewer turns to set up and become threatening is huge as once set up, it's very difficult to remove without seriously strong power or the threat of faster toxic/taunt. Its ability to turn so many things into set up fodder as well as beat things it really doesn't seem like it should beat, is amazing. Taunt also is generally excellent utility and lets it be useful even in games were it might not have as easy a time.

zapdos.png-> A
Oh look the actually good flying type that isn't passive and trapped by Magnezone. In all seriousness I think Zap is an all around great non right now. Offensive sets are effective at making some kind of progress (3a sets and Z sets are both solid), while defog sets are solid and help act as a buffer against key threats like MLop, as well as punishing uturn attempts with Static paralysis. This I think is what particularly makes Zap desirable as being able to cripple mons who rely on their speed is a big deal.

rillaboom (1).png-> B-/C+
Grass Monke no good. I really don't find this thing to be worth a teamslot at all honestly. It over depends on Grassy Glide to shore up it's poor speed, and as a wallbreaker it is strictly outclassed by Kartana, who conveniently can act as speed control without needing to rely on priority and is far stronger. Rilla's lack of defensive utility and its weakness to both hazards and contact effects just make it a Mon who struggles to do much that justifies itself. Getting stuck on a bad move with banded sets (which happens very often) kills so much offensive momentum and makes this Mon too exploitable. Also it doesn't even do that great into rain honestly. What with Ferro and Zap being staples. (It's baffling how this has such high usage compared to actually useful staples of the tier)
 
View attachment 421341-> B-/C+
Grass Monke no good. I really don't find this thing to be worth a teamslot at all honestly. It over depends on Grassy Glide to shore up it's poor speed, and as a wallbreaker it is strictly outclassed by Kartana, who conveniently can act as speed control without needing to rely on priority and is far stronger. Rilla's lack of defensive utility and its weakness to both hazards and contact effects just make it a Mon who struggles to do much that justifies itself. Getting stuck on a bad move with banded sets (which happens very often) kills so much offensive momentum and makes this Mon too exploitable. Also it doesn't even do that great into rain honestly. What with Ferro and Zap being staples. (It's baffling how this has such high usage compared to actually useful staples of the tier)
I disagree on this, rilla doesn't need to drop even more, there is 2 things about rilla that make feel that it is still worth using, grassy terrain and its offensive capabilities, gterrain allows rilla to heal itslef ehich can be helpful to recover from wood hammer damage, and a lot of defensive and offensive mons appreciate gterrain as mons such as mdiancie, pex, tran, melm and more mons will be more effective with free recovery and halved earthquakes, lets talk about its offensive capabilities, rilla is still powerful, it can deal very good damage or even ohko a lot of meta defining mons, even glisc and lando-t don't like banded wood hammers, and fun fact: superpower makes rilla less wallable, and it can hit grass resists thinking they can switch on gglide or a harmless koff but they will get heavy damage (or even get ohko'd) and koff doesn't hit a lot considering that there is grass resists such as zap who don't like wood hammer and koff only hits like vic and even if there is something i forgot to mention that walls you u-turning on the switch should be enough to deal with those, and banded gglide with gterrain is a good priority option because the fastest viable resist are mtias and mtios which can make rilla somewhat good of a speed control option, however, i am not asking for a rise of rilla, rilla gets chipped down a lot and gterrain isn't enough, and with koff or superpower, there is still things that wall or can take hit to do something more threatening , and weavile and koko aren't a prey for gterrain because of ishard and eterrain respectively (unless rilla is on the field after them), in conclusion, rilla current placement in the vr reflects its role in the meta but i don't think it should drop any further.
 
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I disagree on this, rilla doesn't need to drop even more, there is 2 things about rilla that make feel that it is still worth using, grassy terrain and its offensive capabilities, gterrain allows rilla to heal itslef ehich can be helpful to recover from wood hammer damage, and a lot of defensive and offensive mons appreciate gterrain
Its offensive capabilities are extremely prediction reliant and many teams pack multiple soft checks to Kartana, which inadvertently means they prepare for Rilla. And if you want a gterrain user, Bulu exists and actually has defensive utility like helping act as a soft buffer for unevolved ashninja.

lets talk about its offensive capabilities,
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 228-268 (59.6 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While LandoT doesn't like the hit, it can help pivot around it if necessary and push rocky helmet and recoil on it (Rilla's #1 enemy). Also superpower means you really get walled by flying types and invites them in. Superpower is a poor choice on banded sets. Skarm sits on you too btw. You also invite Victini in, and Mega Scizor just rips you a new one. That last one is especially undesirable because offSciz getting better and better, it isn't something you want to invite in easily (It also loses to DeoD after it gains one Cosmic power and becomes set up fodder if stuck on any non uturn move). And uturning out just gets it chipped by helms and contact abilities. And hazards when it does come in.

It's poor as speed control because of how prediction reliant it is. And predicting wrong kills your momentum. It simply doesn't, imo, have any relevant niche in the tier.
 
I feel like Victini could be worthy of going up a rank joining the others in A. Its such a nice check to things like Tapu Lele, Scizor, Clefable, Volcarona with its natural bulk.
And Pokemon like Melmetal and Kartana damn better click Earthquake or Knock Off or you will just give Victini a potential free switch in to start nuking things left and right.
Its far from hard to get Victini in only really fearing Stealth Rock because of the abundance of things it can come in on. Ferrothorn, Corviknight and most of the mons I mentioned above.
Victini is also hard to predict and nothing is a universal counter. Z sets and physical sets are equally viable with Z being such a fun win con. But it can also punch holes for the rest of the team to clean up after. Victini is hard to kill if it gets a Z celebrate off as not even Landorus T can revenge it and you also have to watch out for a burn from a Searing Shot and Pokemon like Kartana also struggle to revenge kill it since Knock Off will be weakened.
It has every move it could want like Bolt Strike and Glaciate and Final Gambit if you want to just jump to a 5 v 5.

Great mon that I feel is a little better than all the Pokemon in its current rank.
 

Kyo

In Limbo
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
First of all, Seismitoad C -> B-

:sm/seismitoad:

Toad is so much better than every rando mon in C rank and probably tied with Deo or Moltres viability-wise at the top of B- if it were actually in that rank. National Dex is a hectic tier with a lot of threats to account for and Toad is the absolute king of role compression when you're having trouble fitting all the necessary resources on a team. Even though I've always rated Toad highly, the recent increase in Zapdos usage I've seen feels like it only puts it in a more favorable position than ever before. Also, because I wanted to have some fun with this post, here are my opinions on virtually every Seismitoad set conceivable.

***

The Definitive Seismitoad Viability Tier List ™

For future reference, earth power can be used instead of EQ on any set featuring that move and is mandatory for teams with grassy terrain support. EQ is nearly always preferred because it is stronger both in base power and because it hits off Toad's better offensive stat. Moreover, EQ does more damage to relevant mons you will be using Toad against like Heatran, Pex, and Volcarona which tend to have better special defense. EQ ohkos any Heatran and can nearly 2hko offensive Volcarona dealing far more damage than scald after a quiver dance. Earth power isn't strictly inferior however. Obviously it is needed on grassy terrain teams, but it also lets you run a neutral speed nature on scald sets to preserve Seismitoad's surprisingly decent speed stat. This is more relevant than you might realize at first. With a sassy nature, Toad should EV speed to 172 to creep Corviknight and get fast scalds since burning it quickly is your way of winning the 1v1. With a neutral speed nature, I like to EV speed all the way to 201 (requiring only 68 EVs). You can now outspeed some specially defensive Heatran or Mega Scizor, most choice banded or Mega Ttar, and any Mega Mawile which you will be hitting for significant damage since your ground STAB isn't weakened by intimidate.

S Rank

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 228 SpD / 32 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Refresh

By far the best and most optimized Toad for the meta. Thanks to refresh, this set is nearly on par with Gliscor in its ability to deal with Toxapex and Heatran but obviously trades longevity for being a better electric type check and water immunity.

A+ Rank

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 228 SpD / 32 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Slightly less viable than refresh sets but still excellent. However, I don't think the tradeoff of being able to toxic the occasional Mega Latias, Kyurem, or Serperior is worth losing your status cure that hard walls Pex and Heatran.

A Rank

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 192 SpD / 68 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic
- Refresh
- Stealth Rock

This is pretty much the full utility set. While it does excel at spreading status, the loss of your ground STAB is unfortunate. Specially defensive Heatran will be able to muscle through more easily and you have to commit to PP stalling Pex if the opponent doesn't want to switch out.

A- Rank

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 192 SpD / 68 Spe
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Refresh
- Stealth Rock

For when you really want to beat Pex and Heatran while still ensuring you can throw toxic on Mega Lati. Dealing with all 3 of those mons while still keeping refresh for status curing is some serious value, but it's obvious why this set isn't as good as some others. You have to completely forfeit your chance of getting rocks up against Gliscor, Corv, or Skarm and have no immediate way to threaten Lando making this set awkward to use at times.

B+ Rank

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 192 SpD / 68 Spe
Calm Nature
- Scald / Protect
- Earth Power / Protect
- Stealth Rock / Protect
- Toxic / Protect

A variation of the A Rank set for use specifically on teams with grassy terrain. Protect allows you to stack extra healing from your terrain or leftovers and scout choice-locked mons. Pretty much any move on the set can be replaced for protect. Toxic is the most expendable, but it has great synergy with protect so other moves may be removed instead.

B Rank

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 228 SpD / 32 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Sludge Bomb / Knock Off

This set reaches a bit deeper into Toad's movepool for some unique utility options. Sludge bomb lets you punish grass types harder on the switch in, chips away at Tapu Fini, and still spreads poison although not as well as toxic. On the other hand, I don't need to explain why knock off is a great move. Toad doesn't run this on most sets because there simply isn't room, but it's very much usable and pressures Tapu Fini similar to sludge bomb while also helping with Ferrothorn.

B- Rank

Seismitoad @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Focus Blast

or

Seismitoad @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Earthquake
- Power Whip
- Ice Punch / Focus Punch

Look, it's just not very good. Rain Toad is undoubtedly fast and unpredictable with excellent coverage. Unfortunately, the damage output is just not there making it extremely hard to justify when Mega Pert is a thing. It pretty much exists as a pick for experimental rain teams that are trying to build without Pert and still need a ground type.

C Rank

Seismitoad @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 92 Atk / 100 SpD / 68 Spe
Careful Nature
- Liquidation
- Earthquake
- Power-Up Punch
- Focus Punch

or

Seismitoad @ Groundium Z
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 40 Atk / 188 SpD / 32 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Earthquake
- Scald
- Infestation
- Stealth Rock

Meme Toad sets intended to lure one or two specific mons while still attempting to offer some amount of defensive utility so that your great typing doesn't go to waste. Are they good? Not really. Are they fun? Absolutely.
 
Nomming Ditto from B to B-/C

:ditto: B ==> B-/C

Most of you will know the situation about stall here, not great is the least of it. Ditto is almost exclusively on these stall teams. While it definitely gets to do its job at discouraging the use of breaking stall via brute force such as tail glow manaphy under rain, it's just not really something every stall team can slap on even if they were good. As such it doesn't take up as much of an important or mandatory spot such as mega sableye and deserves to go down to beside or even below the darkness pokemon.
Also i was going to make a nidoking nom here as well but due to my trash scheduling and teambuilding skills i have to make it on a different post sometime later or you might even see me edit this post like 6 weeks later
 
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Milo

I'm Your Man
is a Community Contributor
I think it may be time for Weavile to make a rise to S Tier!

:ss/weavile:

Although it may not be as common as Heatran or Landorus, there is no denying that it isn't an amazing wallbreaker and does a great job in Checking Landorus and Latias, whilst putting pressure on Heatran, Toxapex, Corviknight and even Tapu Fini with the threat of Knock Off. It's already S- but it should probably make a rise where it belongs


I also believe that Tapu Koko is very hot right now, with a mix between Specs and HDB and should make a rise to A+.

:ss/tapu-koko:

An amazing pivot and partner to the current top mons in the tier such as Lopunny, Landorus and Heatran whilst being very splashable on most BO/Balance builds, whilst supporting more double terrain teams with Lele or Fini. Koko's rise in usage also allows it to partner with Garchomp again which means it could make a higher rise once again depending on teambuilding.
 
Since I'm out and probably not playing for a while I'll leaves some noms.

:landorus-therian: S

:weavile: S-
:heatran: S-

:lopunny-mega: A+

This is how I see the S ranks atm. Lando is king and despite peoples best efforts to downplay its effectiveness it still always ends up way above the top of usage stats. Heatran is not the best pokemon in the tier and never was. Its definitely the steel in the tier and is always a huge threat. I say this with the SpD set in mind as Z sets are very slow and you lose a lot of bulk and utility by using them. Weavile is obvious but I don't consider it S tier because of its glass cannon nature and weakness to Rocks.

I like Mega Lopunny but I don't consider it above pokemon like Clefable and Ferrothorn. I don't think its gotten worse or anything but its just personal preference but won't really care if it stays up there.

:garchomp: A > A+
:gliscor: A+ > A-

With Lando often being relegated to a pivot Garchomp ends up being really good partner so you get the benefit of its offensive sets while having extra speed for pokemon like Kyurem. Gliscor is stuck in a really awkward state where Kyurem and Weavile are so common and its often not bulky enough to actually checks things Lando is able to do. Granted it does do SpD sets a fuck ton better so it still has a good niche but just less justifiable.

:greninja: :greninja-ash: A

Just put the 2 together. Just because they on a very technical level are not the same Pokemon doesn't mean they shouldn't be. They both benefit from each other's existence perfectly. And by together I mean like how Gothitelle and Gothorita were treated on SM UBERS VR.

:zapdos: A- > A

This mon is crazy right now with Z sets dominating and the recent edition of SubRoost taking the meta by storm.

:charizard-mega-y: B > A-

Zard Y + Victini is proven core and the success of that popular team should be proof of that. Might as well be in the same rank as it as well. It helps that Zard Y is unwallable without a Blob or Mega Latias.

:hippowdon: C > B-
:slowking: C > B-

Hippo is too low, it hold together a decent archetype and Hippo itself is one of the best Electric counters in the tier. Slowking seem to have got bangwagoned hard but with Lele and Zard Y being so hard to check for many teams it is justifiable. But for real stop bangwagoning I thought you learned your lesson from unironically removing Hippo from the VR last year.

:aerodactyl-mega: UR > C

I swear people set this mon up to fail. If you haven't guessed I'm a supporter of the above. With no Mega Zam it pretty much outspeeds the entire metagame naturally which is really nice and Tough Claws boosting its coverage means it often gets a lot of coverage options it can use well. Be it a pursuiter or just running Ice Fang for to check the Grounds or Fire Fang to threaten Kartana and Ferrothorn this mon has a surprising amount of versatility. Please do not mention DD as no one is arguing for it to ranked for that reason thank you.

Sorry if this post came off as rambly and bad I'm not great with writing these type of posts unfort. Other things to probably mention is that Zard X is probably too low but I'll leave someone more experience with that instead.
 
Since I'm out and probably not playing for a while I'll leaves some noms.

:landorus-therian: S

:weavile: S-
:heatran: S-

:lopunny-mega: A+

This is how I see the S ranks atm. Lando is king and despite peoples best efforts to downplay its effectiveness it still always ends up way above the top of usage stats. Heatran is not the best pokemon in the tier and never was. Its definitely the steel in the tier and is always a huge threat. I say this with the SpD set in mind as Z sets are very slow and you lose a lot of bulk and utility by using them. Weavile is obvious but I don't consider it S tier because of its glass cannon nature and weakness to Rocks.

I like Mega Lopunny but I don't consider it above pokemon like Clefable and Ferrothorn. I don't think its gotten worse or anything but its just personal preference but won't really care if it stays up there.

:garchomp: A > A+
:gliscor: A+ > A-

With Lando often being relegated to a pivot Garchomp ends up being really good partner so you get the benefit of its offensive sets while having extra speed for pokemon like Kyurem. Gliscor is stuck in a really awkward state where Kyurem and Weavile are so common and its often not bulky enough to actually checks things Lando is able to do. Granted it does do SpD sets a fuck ton better so it still has a good niche but just less justifiable.

:greninja: :greninja-ash: A

Just put the 2 together. Just because they on a very technical level are not the same Pokemon doesn't mean they shouldn't be. They both benefit from each other's existence perfectly. And by together I mean like how Gothitelle and Gothorita were treated on SM UBERS VR.

:zapdos: A- > A

This mon is crazy right now with Z sets dominating and the recent edition of SubRoost taking the meta by storm.

:charizard-mega-y: B > A-

Zard Y + Victini is proven core and the success of that popular team should be proof of that. Might as well be in the same rank as it as well. It helps that Zard Y is unwallable without a Blob or Mega Latias.

:hippowdon: C > B-
:slowking: C > B-

Hippo is too low, it hold together a decent archetype and Hippo itself is one of the best Electric counters in the tier. Slowking seem to have got bangwagoned hard but with Lele and Zard Y being so hard to check for many teams it is justifiable. But for real stop bangwagoning I thought you learned your lesson from unironically removing Hippo from the VR last year.

:aerodactyl-mega: UR > C

I swear people set this mon up to fail. If you haven't guessed I'm a supporter of the above. With no Mega Zam it pretty much outspeeds the entire metagame naturally which is really nice and Tough Claws boosting its coverage means it often gets a lot of coverage options it can use well. Be it a pursuiter or just running Ice Fang for to check the Grounds or Fire Fang to threaten Kartana and Ferrothorn this mon has a surprising amount of versatility. Please do not mention DD as no one is arguing for it to ranked for that reason thank you.

Sorry if this post came off as rambly and bad I'm not great with writing these type of posts unfort. Other things to probably mention is that Zard X is probably too low but I'll leave someone more experience with that instead.
I disagree with the glisc drop, since heatran is insane and glisc is the only defogger that can keep rocks off vs it in the long run. Weavile is a problem but with your choice of koff or u turn on defog sets it can be punished.(Same goes for kyurem but that’s less popular)
 

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