Announcement National Dex UU Suspect 4: We Are Kiwi (Galarian Zapdos Suspect)

Status
Not open for further replies.

:ss/zapdos-galar:

Hey everyone, the NatDex UU tiering council has decided to suspect test Zapdos-Galar!

Suspect Test Reasoning

Galarian Zapdos has cemented itself as one of the top breakers ever since Hawlucha left the tier. Just like the previous Fighting / Flying user, Galarian Zapdos takes advantage of the tier's little amount of counterplay vs this STAB combination. The only relevant Pokemon that resists this STAB combo, Aegislash, does often not have a favorable matchup. Bulk Up + Taunt sets force Aegislash into its Blade form, being unable to properly keep Galarian Zapdos in check anymore. Not to mention Galarian Zapdos will receive an Attack boost if it attacks into King's Shield due to Defiant. Besides all this, Throat Chop sets on 3atks still deals with Aegislash perfectly well.

Bulk Up sets can pretty much nuke most defensive walls in the tier with Z-Brave Bird at +1, such as Mew, Slowking, Hippowdon and Mega Altaria without any drawback. Close Combat hits pretty much everything else noteworthy, such as Skarmory, Celesteela, and Melmetal. Choiced sets also have scary potential, such as the Choice Band sets. Choice Banded Brave Birds, Close Combats and U-turns can be extremely hard to pivot into if not pivoting correctly.

Galarian Zapdos' main issue is its vulnerability to chip damage and the speed tier. Top tier threats like Mega Manectric, Zeraora, Alakazam and Specs Keldeo outspeed and kill, taking advantage of Galarian Zapdos' lower base speed tier. Baiting the Z-Move and letting Galarian Zapdos chip itself with Brave Bird can be a good way to chip it heavily and pick it off with a faster threat.


Suspect Test Information

  • **This is new to National Dex UU suspect tests** Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 40 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 20 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 40 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice.
  • GXEminimum games
    7940
    79.239
    79.438
    79.637
    79.836
    8035
    80.234
    80.433
    80.632
    80.831
    8130
    81.229
    81.428
    81.627
    81.826
    8225
    82.224
    82.423
    82.622
    82.821
    8320
  • You must use a fresh account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. That prefix is NDUUGAP. For example, I could signup and qualify with the name NDUUGAP N_Mareanie.
  • You may not impersonate or mock another user with your account name. If there is any slight hesitation, you're probably better off picking a different name. We reserve the right to null your voting requisites if you are found impersonating or mocking another user with your account name. Moderator discretion will be applied.
  • If you are found trying to manipulate voting requisites in any way, you will be met with a harsh infraction. Manipulating voting requisites ranges from faking your screenshot to asking another user to forfeit.
  • The Pokemon that's being suspect tested, Zapdos-Galar, will be allowed on the National Dex UU ladder for the next two weeks so that we can properly assess its position in the metagame.
  • This suspect test will go on for two weeks. It will last until March the 26th at 11:59 PM GMT+1.
 

Attachments

Suspect Test Rules
  • You are required to make sure that whatever you are arguing for is in-line with the Tiering Policy Framework. If what you're arguing for isn't, there's a very high chance that your post will be deleted.
  • No uninformed one liners or posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspect tests;
  • No discussion on the suspect test process.
  • Your posts are expected to be respectful, please do not insult anyone.
  • If you fail to follow these rules, you may be infracted without any prior warning.
If there are any questions, feel free to PM myself or Cold Apple Soda . If there are any questions about the moderation of this thread, you should feel free to PM the moderation team.
 

ironwater

⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡
is a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
PS Admin
Don't know if there will be another thread to post reqs but here we are:

Confirming as NDUUGAP Patate

suspect natdex uu zapgalar.PNG
About Galarian Zapdos, I feel that this mon hits way too hard for the tier. I think what makes him really annoying to deal with is Z-fly. It basically give him the ability to bruteforce through a lot of its counters. Aslo Defiant is a really good ability allowing him to be an anti defogger as well.
I don't know the tier well however so I'm waiting for other opinions to see but right now I'm thinking of voting ban.
 
Last edited:
I will be voting BAN for the reasons listed bellow.


This mon is way too powerful to stay in this tier, the fact that it's main flaw, lack of switchin opportunities, is completely made up for and then some by how many amazing pivots we have in the tier is completely absurd. The Choice sets are the most obvious examples of why this mon is broken, Choice Scarf being a personal favorite of mine, mainly because it makes it much easier to use breakers that struggle vs offensive teams, which Scarf just eats up. Choice band does the same against defense, except unlike scarf it's also not complete deadweight against the teams it less than prefers to face, since again, pivoting into it against something that either can't hurt it or is slower than it is pretty easy.

But something else that's seen some more experimenting is sub + bulk up, which lacks any real defensive counterplay aside from hard stall carrying Unaware Pyukumuku (which ironically has a higher chance of living SSS into Brave Bird than quagsire has) and Aegislash. All other standard checks like Alomomola, Skarmory and most other steels that don't get 2hkod by CC get absolutely obliterated and this thing gets multiple setup opportunities against fatter teams since most mons can't break the sub.

Now a big counterargument against banning Gzap is that Aegislash walls any set that's not CB with Stomping Tantrum or Throat Chop and being walled by one of the best mons in the tier would be a pretty big reason against banning GZap, if there weren't more factors to take into consideration than that. Aegislash is kinda easy to chip down with hazards + U-Turn spam unless it carries lefties, at which point it is a lot less immediately threatening and is therefore much easier to check. There are also a bunch of good Pursuiters in the tier and while some of them either need Aegislash chipped or have to play 50/50s, it really is not that hard to eventually chip Aegislash into suit range or U-Turn into a trapper that just beats Aegislash in the 1v1. This is why giving Aegislash free turns isn't that much of a problem. Besides, even if there wasn't as much counterplay to Aegislash, forcing teams to run Aegislash as the only consistent check is very limiting.

Also, fun fact, future sight support lets this thing 2hko the entire metagame. I really dislike bringing this up cuz it's more of a why slowking is broken and should be banned problem than a why gzap is broken and should be banned problem, but the fact that Future Sight + GZap is unwallable by 99% of the metagame is still a large factor in why this thing is as good as it is.

Here are come calcs that show how fatter teams can't really break the sub

Not the ideal EV spread but I like assuming the worst when it comes to calcs, even when I want the mon to get banned.
0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos-Galar: 46-55 (14.3 - 17.1%)
0 SpA Quagsire Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos-Galar: 67-79 (20.8 - 24.6%)
252+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar: 55-65 (17.1 - 20.2%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar: 51-60 (15.8 - 18.6%) Applies to basically every U-Turn in the tier, guarantees that none of the billions of uturners freely break the sub without dying/getting punished.
0 SpA Sableye-Mega Hex (65 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos-Galar: 67-79 (20.8 - 24.6%) You even set up against hex + wisp sab

Also some sugarcoating just for fun because the numbers this thing hits with CB and Bulk Up are insane.

+1 252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 237-280 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 375-442 (70.2 - 82.7%)
252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 241-285 (61.1 - 72.3%)
252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Pyukumuku: 181-214 (57.6 - 68.1%)
 
Last edited:

Nowno

la frappe du quartier est approuvé ✅
I guess I got to top 8 in this tier, soooo i'm going to write a bit to make this thread a bit more interesting.
I only played stall in this tier, and I saw that this Bird, when banded, has almost no switch-in, as the only way I found was to build around with Mega Sableye + MaxDef Hippo or physdef Alomomola + A Fighting resist and a flying resist.

252 Atk Choice Band Zapdos-Galar Close Combat vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 237-280 (44.9 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Zapdos-Galar Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 184-217 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

So this is obviously too much, even Aegislash who resist both of it's stab can't switch in because of Blaze Kick/Stomping Tontrum.
There is obviously a lacks of counter, maybe a lack of check to it's choice scarf set, but I can't be sure about that.
I will be voting ban.
 
I will be voting BAN for the reasons listed bellow.


This mon is way too powerful to stay in this tier, the fact that it's main flaw, lack of switchin opportunities, is completely made up for and then some by how many amazing pivots we have in the tier is completely absurd. The Choice sets are the most obvious examples of why this mon is broken, Choice Scarf being a personal favorite of mine, mainly because it makes it much easier to use breakers that struggle vs offensive teams, which Scarf just eats up. Choice band does the same against defense, except unlike scarf it's also not complete deadweight against the teams it less than prefers to face, since again, pivoting into it against something that either can't hurt it or is slower than it is pretty easy.

But something else that's seen some more experimenting is sub + bulk up, which lacks any real defensive counterplay aside from hard stall carrying Unaware Pyukumuku (which ironically has a higher chance of living SSS into Brave Bird than quagsire has) and Aegislash. All other standard checks like Alomomola, Skarmory and most other steels that don't get 2hkod by CC get absolutely obliterated and this thing gets multiple setup opportunities against fatter teams since most mons can't break the sub.

Now a big counterargument against banning Gzap is that Aegislash walls any set that's not CB with Stomping Tantrum or Throat Chop and being walled by one of the best mons in the tier would be a pretty big reason against banning GZap, if there weren't more factors to take into consideration than that. Aegislash is kinda easy to chip down with hazards + U-Turn spam unless it carries lefties, at which point it is a lot less immediately threatening and is therefore much easier to check. There are also a bunch of good Pursuiters in the tier and while some of them either need Aegislash chipped or have to play 50/50s, it really is not that hard to eventually chip Aegislash into suit range or U-Turn into a trapper that just beats Aegislash in the 1v1. This is why giving Aegislash free turns isn't that much of a problem. Besides, even if there wasn't as much counterplay to Aegislash, forcing teams to run Aegislash as the only consistent check is very limiting.

Also, fun fact, future sight support lets this thing 2hko the entire metagame. I really dislike bringing this up cuz it's more of a why slowking is broken and should be banned problem than a why gzap is broken and should be banned problem, but the fact that Future Sight + GZap is unwallable by 99% of the metagame is still a large factor in why this thing is as good as it is.

Here are come calcs that show how fatter teams can't really break the sub

Not the ideal EV spread but I like assuming the worst when it comes to calcs, even when I want the mon to get banned.
0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos-Galar: 46-55 (14.3 - 17.1%)
0 SpA Quagsire Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos-Galar: 67-79 (20.8 - 24.6%)
252+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar: 55-65 (17.1 - 20.2%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar: 51-60 (15.8 - 18.6%) Applies to basically every U-Turn in the tier, guarantees that none of the billions of uturners freely break the sub without dying/getting punished.
0 SpA Sableye-Mega Hex (65 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos-Galar: 67-79 (20.8 - 24.6%) You even set up against hex + wisp sab

Also some sugarcoating just for fun because the numbers this thing hits with CB and Bulk Up are insane.

+1 252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 237-280 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 375-442 (70.2 - 82.7%)
252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 241-285 (61.1 - 72.3%)
252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Pyukumuku: 181-214 (57.6 - 68.1%)
1616422733351.png
I think that pomfpomfpluff made really good arguments in favour of Galarian Zapdos banning. And I completely agree with it, there is practically no defensive counterplay in the tier right now against Galarian Zapdos. There are a few checks according to the set. Both Choice give you big utility: speed control and wallbreaking. Moreover, if it is paired with typical Sticky Web archetype (named Shuckle teams), it may obliterate opponent's teams that are not running Rapid Spin and need to Defog risking a +2 Atk in GZap. In this case, GZap can be stopped by Unaware Pokémon such as Pyukumuku. However, the water blob needs to be at high HP and practically no entry hazards on the field. As it has been mentioned, a recent set that has seen some spotlight is BulkUp stallbreaker set with Taunt which purely destroys stall.

I agree that Aegislash may be the best check that it has in the tier. But the fact that you need to rely on it makes it totally unhealthy for the current metagame. Moreover, Z-Flynium at +1 on Atk may deal a 2HKO to Aegislash. Another Pokémon that we need to take into account is Mega-Altaria which, imo, is also a good check. Without Stealth Rock up, defensive Mega-Altaria might resist a SSS at +1Atk (it has 60% chance) and 80% OHKO in return.

For these reasons and the ones mentioned above my comment I think Galarian-Zapdos needs to be BANNED but Slowking needs to on the radar afterwards. Cya Pokémaniacs :heart:
 
I will be voting BAN for the reasons listed bellow.


This mon is way too powerful to stay in this tier, the fact that it's main flaw, lack of switchin opportunities, is completely made up for and then some by how many amazing pivots we have in the tier is completely absurd. The Choice sets are the most obvious examples of why this mon is broken, Choice Scarf being a personal favorite of mine, mainly because it makes it much easier to use breakers that struggle vs offensive teams, which Scarf just eats up. Choice band does the same against defense, except unlike scarf it's also not complete deadweight against the teams it less than prefers to face, since again, pivoting into it against something that either can't hurt it or is slower than it is pretty easy.

But something else that's seen some more experimenting is sub + bulk up, which lacks any real defensive counterplay aside from hard stall carrying Unaware Pyukumuku (which ironically has a higher chance of living SSS into Brave Bird than quagsire has) and Aegislash. All other standard checks like Alomomola, Skarmory and most other steels that don't get 2hkod by CC get absolutely obliterated and this thing gets multiple setup opportunities against fatter teams since most mons can't break the sub.

Now a big counterargument against banning Gzap is that Aegislash walls any set that's not CB with Stomping Tantrum or Throat Chop and being walled by one of the best mons in the tier would be a pretty big reason against banning GZap, if there weren't more factors to take into consideration than that. Aegislash is kinda easy to chip down with hazards + U-Turn spam unless it carries lefties, at which point it is a lot less immediately threatening and is therefore much easier to check. There are also a bunch of good Pursuiters in the tier and while some of them either need Aegislash chipped or have to play 50/50s, it really is not that hard to eventually chip Aegislash into suit range or U-Turn into a trapper that just beats Aegislash in the 1v1. This is why giving Aegislash free turns isn't that much of a problem. Besides, even if there wasn't as much counterplay to Aegislash, forcing teams to run Aegislash as the only consistent check is very limiting.

Also, fun fact, future sight support lets this thing 2hko the entire metagame. I really dislike bringing this up cuz it's more of a why slowking is broken and should be banned problem than a why gzap is broken and should be banned problem, but the fact that Future Sight + GZap is unwallable by 99% of the metagame is still a large factor in why this thing is as good as it is.

Here are come calcs that show how fatter teams can't really break the sub

Not the ideal EV spread but I like assuming the worst when it comes to calcs, even when I want the mon to get banned.
0 SpA Alomomola Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos-Galar: 46-55 (14.3 - 17.1%)
0 SpA Quagsire Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos-Galar: 67-79 (20.8 - 24.6%)
252+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar: 55-65 (17.1 - 20.2%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos-Galar: 51-60 (15.8 - 18.6%) Applies to basically every U-Turn in the tier, guarantees that none of the billions of uturners freely break the sub without dying/getting punished.
0 SpA Sableye-Mega Hex (65 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos-Galar: 67-79 (20.8 - 24.6%) You even set up against hex + wisp sab

Also some sugarcoating just for fun because the numbers this thing hits with CB and Bulk Up are insane.

+1 252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 237-280 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 375-442 (70.2 - 82.7%)
252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 241-285 (61.1 - 72.3%)
252 Atk Zapdos-Galar Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Pyukumuku: 181-214 (57.6 - 68.1%)
It's also worth noting that Aegislash's signature move actually raises Zapdos's attack by +1 because of defiant. Any effort to lower Zapdos's stats is also nullified because of defiant. Depending on the set, G-zapdos can fill nearly any role (wallbreaker, stallbreaker, sweeper, setup sweeper with bulkup+sub) with perfection. I am in 100% agreement of banning it, but unfortunately I'm not apart of the test.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top