Resource National Dex OU Simple Questions, Simple Answers

R8

Leads Natdex Other Tiers, not rly doing ndou stuff
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Why is Smeargle able to learn Double Iron Bash?
Well, and every other Gen 8/9 move that isn't Life Dew or Body Press, since those can be learned in BDSP which Smeargle is in fact in.

It's not fair that Smeargle gets to have moves that it's never been able to learn in any game just because "that's how we think that Sketch is going to work".
Not decreasing Heal Order's PP to 8 makes sense, because we don't know if it'll be nerfed if it will even exist after this point.
Allowing Smeargle to have these moves doesn't make sense, because if we go by that logic then Tera Blast, as a near-universal TM, should be accessible to all pokemon that are capable of learning near-universal TMs.
Smeargle is already unable to learn Chatter, and I believe that in situations where we have no information on if a move is sketchable or not, it shouldn't be just like in situations where we aren't sure if a move will become learnable or not.
This actually is a consequence of the way NatDex is defined: every move works like it did the last gen it was introduced.

The only condition you have to meet for sketch to be able to copy a move is being in the same battle than a pokemon that learns that move, including in multiplayer battles (except in gen2). In National Dex, Smeargle faces Pokemon using these moves. Only three moves are not sketchable (Chatter, Sketch, Struggle), so not giving Smeargle every gen8+ moves would be a very strong assumption on how Sketch would work in gens where it doesn't exist.

In a nutshell, Smeargle learns every move for the same reason Heal Order kept its 16 PPs. We can't assume changes for nuked moves, and that includes Sketch.
 
Seeing as a lot of discussion on whether to ban tera or not is going on in the SVOU forums, how does NatDex tend to react to mechanic bans like that? Like, if NatDex was around when Dynamax got banned in OU, was it banned here at the same time or was it tested in NatDex and banned because of that?
 

Sulo

pure heroine
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Seeing as a lot of discussion on whether to ban tera or not is going on in the SVOU forums, how does NatDex tend to react to mechanic bans like that? Like, if NatDex was around when Dynamax got banned in OU, was it banned here at the same time or was it tested in NatDex and banned because of that?
To my knowledge, National Dex was created after the Dynamax ban occurred. I think it is safe to assume that we'll handle things on our own, seeing as how we have an entirely separate banlist from base OU formats (e.g. Roaring Moon isn't banned there, but we gave that the boot here in NatDex).
 
To my knowledge, National Dex was created after the Dynamax ban occurred. I think it is safe to assume that we'll handle things on our own, seeing as how we have an entirely separate banlist from base OU formats (e.g. Roaring Moon isn't banned there, but we gave that the boot here in NatDex).
That makes sense. I wasn't sure if Dynamax had already been banned. Thanks for clearing it up for me :)
 
Is custap berry supposed to be banned? As I see it's unobtainable in ScSv but it being unavailable on natdex feels weird considering mega stones and z-crystals are allowed.
 
huh oh sure you had to ban starve berry for some reason in this tier
Well, actually it isn't actually banned but illegal in the metagame
But really? The metagame is trying to resemble everything past generations (assumed its not banned)
For Starve Berry, Yes it isn't actually in the game but so does the move return and frustration, but the latter was allowed.
I really dont get why the former isn't also allowed, especially when mega stones already exist in the tier despite being unusable
 

R8

Leads Natdex Other Tiers, not rly doing ndou stuff
is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Top Contributor Alumnus
National Dex Leader
Is custap berry supposed to be banned? As I see it's unobtainable in ScSv but it being unavailable on natdex feels weird considering mega stones and z-crystals are allowed.
huh oh sure you had to ban starve berry for some reason in this tier
Well, actually it isn't actually banned but illegal in the metagame
But really? The metagame is trying to resemble everything past generations (assumed its not banned)
For Starve Berry, Yes it isn't actually in the game but so does the move return and frustration, but the latter was allowed.
I really dont get why the former isn't also allowed, especially when mega stones already exist in the tier despite being unusable
This was an oversight - they are meant to be legal. I think this is fixed now
 
Is there any reason we are allowing the Urshifus (or any unavailable pokemon in SV) new moves early? We didn't allow stuff like DD Chomp and Terrain Boosting moves on Koko and Lele when they were rumored to get access to them.
 

R8

Leads Natdex Other Tiers, not rly doing ndou stuff
is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Top Contributor Alumnus
National Dex Leader
Is there any reason we are allowing the Urshifus (or any unavailable pokemon in SV) new moves early? We didn't allow stuff like DD Chomp and Terrain Boosting moves on Koko and Lele when they were rumored to get access to them.
Like in gen8 with shell smash blastoise, post-home legal movepools that already are coded in the game are implemented in natdex. Urshifu, Zamazenta, Regieleki, etc... are all post home pokemon, which mean they are technically legal in the game but just cant be caught in the region.

The difference is that Tapus and Chomp still were not in the game even after home was released. They got added with DLCs (if i am not mistaken, they were not even coded in?)
 
As someone who has just been playing gen 9 this month, what happened here? Is UU opening in Alpha too or is like 30% of UU's banlist Ubers pokemon for the month? Was power creep just that bad this gen? In regular OU I assumed a large part of it was the fact that many OU staples were either missing or nerfed.

If this was too UU related, sorry. I wasn't sure if the question was more related to OU's stats or UU's creation. I was more interested in the OU perspective of things, in terms of why so many powerful pokemon aren't being considered as much right now.
 
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Like in gen8 with shell smash blastoise, post-home legal movepools that already are coded in the game are implemented in natdex. Urshifu, Zamazenta, Regieleki, etc... are all post home pokemon, which mean they are technically legal in the game but just cant be caught in the region.

The difference is that Tapus and Chomp still were not in the game even after home was released. They got added with DLCs (if i am not mistaken, they were not even coded in?)
Since this is the case, is there a reason we can't use Hisui region mons? they are also coded into the game and all exclusive moves too. Why can't we use any of them?
 

R8

Leads Natdex Other Tiers, not rly doing ndou stuff
is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Top Contributor Alumnus
National Dex Leader
As someone who has just been playing gen 9 this month, what happened here? Is UU opening in Alpha too or is like 30% of UU's banlist Ubers pokemon for the month? Was power creep just that bad this gen? In regular OU I assumed a large part of it was the fact that many OU staples were either missing or nerfed.

If this was too UU related, sorry. I wasn't sure if the question was more related to OU's stats or UU's creation. I was more interested in the OU perspective of things, in terms of why so many powerful pokemon aren't being considered as much right now.
Natdex UU is currently in its alpha phase, yes - nothing is banned yet.
Even though powercreep played a role (in addition to the new unbans), i think the new toy syndrom probably also made people "forgot" about old staples of the tier. Not saying that to downplay how dumb the powercreep is this gen, though.

Since this is the case, is there a reason we can't use Hisui region mons? they are also coded into the game and all exclusive moves too. Why can't we use any of them?
We assume transfers from mainline games, and hisui mons are not available in any of them. Its a similar case to the lgpe eevee/pikachu formes.
 
We assume transfers from mainline games, and hisui mons are not available in any of them. Its a similar case to the lgpe eevee/pikachu formes.
So it's based more on the official release of the Hisui mons rather than them being in the game already (just not accessible without home)? I do think it's an interesting (but somewhat understandable) precedent that we're fine grabbing movepool changes from Pokemon that are in the game but inaccessible but not entire Pokemon.
 

R8

Leads Natdex Other Tiers, not rly doing ndou stuff
is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Top Contributor Alumnus
National Dex Leader
So it's based more on the official release of the Hisui mons rather than them being in the game already (just not accessible without home)? I do think it's an interesting (but somewhat understandable) precedent that we're fine grabbing movepool changes from Pokemon that are in the game but inaccessible but not entire Pokemon.
Because we are assuming transfers from pokemon from the mainline games. Once those are transferred, we are trying to emulate what a metagame with them would be. If they are coded to get more moves, they get those moves, since we are using this code's game. It's just that the code of the game modified something that already exists in natdex.
 
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This was an oversight - they are meant to be legal. I think this is fixed now
Thank you, though since then I've noticed berry juice is also being rejected. Also while showdown does allow the usage of custap and other items, they are still being listed as illegal when you search for them.
 
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What is the difference between balance and bulky offense? I still cannot see the difference until now

I have 2 teams :

:lopunny-mega: :chien-pao: :landorus-therian: :magearna: :rotom-wash: :heatran:
https://pokepast.es/c430b469cf415fe8
is it balance or bulky offense?

:urshifu-rapid-strike: :gholdengo: :scizor-mega: :tapu-lele: :gastrodon: :zapdos:
https://pokepast.es/bfad0bcfc5f32a33

is it balance or bulky offense?
Hi! The line between balance and bulky offense is, at times, a pretty thin and subjective one. However, in my opinion, balance teams tend to have more solidified defensive backbones, while bulky offense are more like packing pokemon that can take a few hits (tapu fini, heatran, lando) without being full-on walls to help enable multiple heavy hitters.

Personally, I'd say the first one is bulky offense while the second one is balance. But again! It's subjective. I could see the 2nd being seen as bulky offense, too, just because there are multiple offensive threats which can overwhelm the opponent.
 
Hi! The line between balance and bulky offense is, at times, a pretty thin and subjective one. However, in my opinion, balance teams tend to have more solidified defensive backbones, while bulky offense are more like packing pokemon that can take a few hits (tapu fini, heatran, lando) without being full-on walls to help enable multiple heavy hitters.

Personally, I'd say the first one is bulky offense while the second one is balance. But again! It's subjective. I could see the 2nd being seen as bulky offense, too, just because there are multiple offensive threats which can overwhelm the opponent.
thanks for the answer

both of my team consist of 3 defensive & 3 offensive mon, the 3 defensive was chosen first consist of rocker, defogger,& slow pivot that can cover each other weakness. the offensive usually choiced & z-crystal mon.

I think its closer to bulky offense than balance then
 

Sulo

pure heroine
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
National Dex Leader
thanks for the answer

both of my team consist of 3 defensive & 3 offensive mon, the 3 defensive was chosen first consist of rocker, defogger,& slow pivot that can cover each other weakness. the offensive usually choiced & z-crystal mon.

I think its closer to bulky offense than balance then
Keep in mind that there isn't an objective ratio of offensive to defensive Pokemon on any team style besides hyper offense really. So, some balance teams can be a lot bulkier than others, whereas some contain more offense but are still balance.
 
What is the difference between balance and bulky offense? I still cannot see the difference until now

I have 2 teams :

:lopunny-mega: :chien-pao: :landorus-therian: :magearna: :rotom-wash: :heatran:
https://pokepast.es/c430b469cf415fe8
is it balance or bulky offense?

:urshifu-rapid-strike: :gholdengo: :scizor-mega: :tapu-lele: :gastrodon: :zapdos:
https://pokepast.es/bfad0bcfc5f32a33

is it balance or bulky offense?

Generally speaking the divide between Balance and Bulky Offense is much more how you intend to win with your team than the Pokemon on it. Balance tends to focus on having a good defensive backbone and solid pivots, forcing the opponent to be whittled down by hazards, status, and other chip damage like Iron Barbs, Rocky Helmets, Sand etc and then when the opposing team is weakened a bulky win condition finishing everything off is ideal. You can see this highlighted in some balance teams below (excuse me for using examples from last gen, as its a more understood tier its easier to see the distinctions)
:deoxys-defense: :ferrothorn: :heatran: :landorus-therian: :latias-mega: :tapu-fini: - DeoD Balance by Adem
:gastrodon: :mew: :clefable: :latias-mega: :zapdos: :volcarona:- Mew Spikes by Jordy

Bulky offense is similar with the main difference being that it relies on its pivots to bring in strong breakers to force progress that way rather than through passive damage. Some examples, again from last gen so the difference is clear:
:kyurem: :lopunny-mega: :melmetal: :tapu fini: :landorus-therian: :victini:- KyuLop by Ryuji
:medicham-mega: :volcarona: :tapu fini: :landorus-therian: :weavile: :ferrothorn: - MediVolc by Me, for ego reasons
You can see a lot of these teams have overlapping mons but hopefully looking at them side by side likes this you can really tell apart the win conditions they are each looking for. Your teams in this regard are definitely Bulky Offense. Hope this helps.
 
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Generally speaking the divide between Balance and Bulky Offense is much more how you intend to win with your team than the Pokemon on it. Balance tends to focus on having a good defensive backbone and solid pivots, forcing the opponent to be whittled down by hazards, status, and other chip damage like Iron Barbs, Rocky Helmets, Sand etc and then when the opposing team is weakened a bulky win condition finishing everything off is ideal. You can see this highlighted in some balance teams below (excuse me for using examples from last gen, as its a more understood tier its easier to see the distinctions)
:deoxys-defense: :ferrothorn: :heatran: :landorus-therian: :latias-mega: :tapu-fini: - DeoD Balance by Adem
:gastrodon: :mew: :clefable: :latias-mega: :zapdos: :volcarona:- Mew Spikes by Jordy

Bulky offense is similar with the main difference being that it relies on its pivots to bring in strong breakers to force progress that way rather than through passive damage. Some examples, again from last gen so the difference is clear:
:kyurem: :lopunny-mega: :melmetal: :tapu fini: :landorus-therian: :victini:- KyuLop by Ryuji
:medicham-mega: :volcarona: :tapu fini: :landorus-therian: :weavile: :ferrothorn: - MediVolc by Me, for ego reasons
You can see a lot of these teams have overlapping mons but hopefully looking at them side by side likes this you can really tell apart the win conditions they are each looking for. Your teams in this regard are definitely Bulky Offense. Hope this helps.
Good explanation, so balance is closer to stall then

I see the clear difference between :
:kyurem: :lopunny-mega: :melmetal: :tapu fini: :landorus-therian: :victini:- yuLop by Ryuji (it's clearly offense)
:gastrodon: :mew: :clefable: :latias-mega: :zapdos: :volcarona:- Mew Spikes by Jordy (I think its stall lol)

but these two rather similiar :
:medicham-mega: :volcarona: :tapu fini: :landorus-therian: :weavile: :ferrothorn: - MediVolc by Me, for ego reasons (maybe medicham & weavile make it offense)
:deoxys-defense: :ferrothorn: :heatran: :landorus-therian: :latias-mega: :tapu-fini: - DeoD Balance by Adem (only have heatran as offensive build)

Thank you anyway, so both of my team is clearly bulky offense
 

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