Resource National Dex Metagame Discussion v2

pannu

「GO BEYOND」
is a Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
i realise how broken and unfun to play against baton pass can be, but could the ban be modified in such a way that i can be used to pivot? For example any moveset with a setup move and baton pass would be illegal.

The reason im asking is that i really want to use M-absol lol and i believe the ability to pivot would make it a lot better. It doesnt get parting shot for some reason so baton pass could work too. I'm sure a lot of other overlooked mons without any pivot would benifit from it too and may be used more.
Complex banning a move as such will just make it be confusing for newer players, and i also think removing a key part of it and changing baton pass into an entirely different move just so it can be used in comp is weird, its fine as is rn.
 
i realise how broken and unfun to play against baton pass can be, but could the ban be modified in such a way that i can be used to pivot? For example any moveset with a setup move and baton pass would be illegal.

The reason im asking is that i really want to use M-absol lol and i believe the ability to pivot would make it a lot better. It doesnt get parting shot for some reason so baton pass could work too. I'm sure a lot of other overlooked mons without any pivot would benifit from it too and may be used more.
Basically go through the Policy Review section and you'll find 101 debates on exactly this in various contexts because people want the funny pivot move but they don't want the broken pass chains. There's a lot of reasons why what you're describing isn't what happened, but it's rather beyond the scope of this thread so go take a look through PR if you want to know more.
 
i realise how broken and unfun to play against baton pass can be, but could the ban be modified in such a way that i can be used to pivot? For example any moveset with a setup move and baton pass would be illegal.

The reason im asking is that i really want to use M-absol lol and i believe the ability to pivot would make it a lot better. It doesnt get parting shot for some reason so baton pass could work too. I'm sure a lot of other overlooked mons without any pivot would benifit from it too and may be used more.
What youre referring to is called "Dry Passing" and has been discussed in This Policy Review Thread it falls more under general smogon policy than natdex specifically.
TL:DR you would need to implement atleast 112 complex bans on ways to boost stats to have this even work without taking into account things like magic bounce and swagger.
 
Thank you for yor responses.

I just felt like pivoting is so important in most metagames that it is often the reason to choose one mon over another. Even electric types like zapdos and koko choose to opt for uturn over a stab volt switch to keep momentum, despite the prevalence of rocky helmet/iron barbs/rough skin. A lot of choice users also opt for uturn, even if they have minimum attack, at the cost of one less coverage option.

Im sure if it were to be unbanned, certain baton pass users like the eeveelutions and absol, while not top tier, could be used more effectively, which would a very desirable change in a meta game like nat dex.

However, I wasnt aware that this issue had been discussed in such detail before. The reasons for not unbanning it seem fair, and ultimately i'm more than ok with respecting the decisions of those who have been in the competetive scene a lot longer than i have.
 

pannu

「GO BEYOND」
is a Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
saw some people over in 1v1 post their top 10 mons in the meta and thought it was a cool idea, gnna do the same for nd s/o RTM for the original post in 1v1 forums.

1. :Landorus-Therian: easily the most splashable mon in the tier rn and i think that the amount of diff things it can do / mons it can check / amount of teams it fits on puts it over tran IMO.
2. :Heatran: super hard to switch into and is IMO a big reason to why bulkier builds are out of favour in the current meta
3. :Lopunny-mega: between its ability to restrict offense, hard to switch into stab combinations, pivoting ability to bring in strong breakers (see: the previous mon and the two next), as well as moveset versatility, being able to tech moves like Toxic, Triple Axel, Healing Wish. Its by far the best mega in the tier rn.
4. :Kartana: putting me believing that this thing is unhealthy for the tier aside, Kart is a genuinely dangerous pokemon. SD Z / CB are crazy good vs fat and timid / scarf are super restricting vs offense. i also find it very easy to help kartana break through its checks with smart teambuilding, i.e running smthng like normalium z or scarf, which struggles against steels, can be easily enable by Magnezone, or Fightinium Z / Timid, which struggles against birds in general, as well as mega lati@s, you can pair up alongside pursuiters like mega tar or weav to make it put in work. rlly solid mon
5. :weavile: this mon is simple af literally just pursuit or traxel spam w/ cb or nuke everything in sight with SD Z. super good + can enable teammates like kartana, mlop, latias rlly nicely

i think that these 5 are definitely the 5 best mons in the tier, no arguments. the next 5 are where i expect to see more variety in ppls lists

6. :Tapu-fini: probs the best bulky water in the tier rn, whirlpool is crazy good for enabling mons like Volcarona, Ash-Gren, or Melmetal, spdef is probs the most splashable counter to heatran / ashgren there is, this thing has crazy good utility.
7. :Toxapex: the second best bulky water IMO, its like fini but for fat, checks ashgren and setup sweepers; notably I've been experimenting alot more with items / fourth moves lately, some of the biggest hits have been rh, shed shell, icinium/poisinium Z, Knock Off, Poison Jab, and Baneful Bunker.
8. :magnezone: beats literally every steel in the tier aside from melm and train, it feels so comfortable to slap a scarf zone on a team and be like "alright now i dont have to worry about ferro/msciz/kart anymore, nice", it frees up the builder immensely. specs is rlly hard to switch into and sub Z move is a really fun option on fat teams to counter mmaw, unfortunately sand tomb sciz is so common that you cant rlly afford to run it anymore.
9. :Kyurem: Wouldnt be a top 10 mons in the tier without me mentioning kyurem, now would it? jokes aside this thing is stupidly hard to switch into. Personally i have been loving NMI and sub dd recently. I also find that kyurem takes advantage of most BO/balance structures excellently.
10. :Latias-mega: I think that mlati is the only reason why fat is viable at all in nd rn. having a wincon/defogger that can check Kartana, SD grounds, Victini, Zard-y, Heatran, and Manaphy all in one slot is incredibly dope. I have been running not cm alot recently, instead using stuff like Twave or Defog, they're really solid and should be explored more. Lastly, i wanted to talk about some cool move choices, energy ball on utility 6-0s Rain, and you can run Draco to catch foes like Kyurem, Victini, or MMedi off-guard.

the only honourable mentions i wanna put down are msciz clef gliscor and lele.

these are my opinions, however i heavily encourage other ppl to post their top 10s aswell, gnna tag some ppl who i rlly hope to see respond with their lists
peap Mollymiltoast Avery Kyo Kate airfare
 
Last edited:

Kate

Don't forget 3.Oct.11
is a Tiering Contributoris a defending SCL Champion
I'll bite.

:Heatran: Easily my number one, may not be as splashable as lando but has a set that threatens literally every team ever created along with packing extremely good defensive utility. Forced stuff like fini and gliscor to creep timid which just naturally makes them weaker defensively.

:Landorus-Therian: fits on everything, godlike pivot, compresses 3 billion roles, etc. Offensive sets r kinda lacking rn which makes me put it at number two.

:weavile: putting weavile ahead of mlop simply because I think its pursuit plus ice stab shapes the meta just a bit more. Sd is decent but band is just insanely deadly, there's a reason u never see stuff like specs blace and hoopa.

:Lopunny-mega: what pannu said, held back a little because it relies on teammates to properly deal with helmet spam (which I believe is very good rn, especially helm clef)

:Kartana: debated putting clefable here but I think kart appreciates the current meta a touch more. Has no long term cplay, can be teched for anti offense, you get the picture

:Clefable: surprised pannu didn't include clefbale, but ye, support is great, unaware is heavily underexplored on balance, and cm remains potent af. Can get overwhelmed so putting it at six

:Toxapex: tbh this and clef are virtually a tie, pex is so slappable rn and offers amazing support to so many builds, I've really been loving it lately. Lack of good foggers outside fini really makes tspikes excel imo

:Tapu fini: essentially what pannu said, annoys every team in existence and terrain support helps a ton of shit, specifically my number 9

:Scizor-mega: Sand Tomb sets r busted. Offensive sets in general are busted, and its typing + bulk provides easy set up opportunities vs the current meta. Even been using bug bite lately to nail rotom wash, and I think defensive knock off sets should be used more

:Ferrothorn: :magnezone: :gliscor:
These basically all fit at ten for me, ferro is a great spiker that fits perfectly on offense, zone traps steels, and gliscor is gliscor. Latias is also close to top ten for me, but I think my first nine are the ones I can most accurately rank.

Ps autotomize celesteela is busted
 

peap

ohhooo hoo ho hoo HO
is a Tutoris a Tiering Contributor
I’m obsessed with the idea of “midground” Pokémon, similar in meaning to what others might call “centralizing” or “defining” mons. I think a top 10 pick not only offers progress in any matchup but also demands counterplay - the more specific, the more powerful it is - on any well-constructed team.

The baker’s dozen of top picks have more or less been beaten to death:
:landorus-therian: :lopunny-mega: :weavile: :tapu fini: :toxapex: :heatran: :kartana: :magnezone: :kyurem: :scizor-mega: :ferrothorn: :clefable: :latias-mega:

So I’ll add some mons that, while not centralizing, have been useful for me in making progress given the current state of the metagame. This also explains why I consistently roll up with some of the worst-looking teams in the meta, since I’m fishing for matchup against typical centralized threats.
  1. :tapu lele:
    As an imperious offensive presence with near-perfect coverage but a case of 4MSS, Lele has seen usage with its classic Choice Specs set, but I increasingly see Scarf as a viable revenge killer in bulky offense matchups paired with Mawile, Victini, Diancie and the like which appreciate battered Steel-, Fairy-, and Toxapex-types. You do have to choose two of the three in Focus Blast/Hidden Power Fire/Thunderbolt for Heatran/Scizor/Corviknight unless you run Calm Mind + Fightinium Z. Lately, Assault Vest sets have ranked second in usage but that’s largely the Agents server spamming one mediocre team I made
  2. :Victini:
    Victini is a “fake steel” that takes on many Fairy/Fire/Psychic types as a well-rounded check. Run Boots on this thing and pick your coverage. Bolt Strike dents Toxapex switchins, which are not hard to force given its threat of V-Create, which also handles offensive Volcarona sets. U-Turn and Encore are great utility moves for gaining momentum, the latter allowing it to 1v1 many defensive Pokémon locked into recovery and surprise Kyurem behind Substitute. Special sets with Blue Flare and Glaciate should not be ignored, to avoid chip from the many Rocky Helmets and Lando-T switchins. Run max Speed and Atk/SpA on this thing - you’d be surprised at how far uninvested 100/100/100 defenses take you, and few mons want to switch in.
  3. :Slowking-Galar:
    I've overused the one viable Glowking set in National Dex. Since Pursuit exists here, you risk playing with 5 and a half mons against Choice Band Weavile…unless you run max physical defense investment and a Z-move. Even more specifically, you should run Calm Mind to gravitate your position and stay in against a plethora of threats to make up for the lack of speed and hazard vulnerability. Scald and Waterium Z cover the most threats, notably against Heatran, Volcarona, and Ground-types. Of course, Z-Swords Dance Weavile and Tyranitar remain checks to this variant (I am sorry cy and team for lucking you in NDTT II).
  4. :Melmetal:
    Double Iron Bash is an incredible move that teams struggle to switch into. Melmetal is ideal image of a tank, absorbing hits and dishing it back out even harder. The Iron Fist boost, high Attack stat, and flinch chance enable DIB to batter any slower Pokemon like Toxapex that can ordinarily take a hit. (Un)fortunately, Corviknight and Zapdos are common checks to DIB spam, so you should run one of Thunder Wave or Toxic to cripple them and follow-up with team support. A coverage move of your choice - Earthquake or Superpower I recommend to give Heatran/Zone/Ferrothorn pause to switching in - plus Protect complete the set. Move as many EVs from SpD to Spe as you deem necessary.
  5. :Volcanion:
    A special counterpart to Melmetal, Volcanion is not quite as good in NatDex as in SS OU since the power creep is just higher, giving it fewer chances to pivot in. Nevertheless, taking on Toxapex, Tapu Fini, Corviknight, and Ferrothorn in one slot - some of the metagame's strongest defensive picks - and threatening fire and brimstone against faster offensive threats is the definition of progress. I recommend non-choiced sets with either Substitute or four attacks.
  6. :mawile-mega:
    No surprise with Weavile usage creeping up, I see more openings for Mawile to use its absurd Attack stat. Four attacks sets are the flavor of the day, with Ice Punch and Brick Break and even Rock Tomb nice to have.
  7. Notable mentions: :Latios-mega:, :zeraora:, :tyranitar-mega:
    All great midground picks with strong offensive presence, but really fit on certain bulky offense teams. Out of the three, I believe Mega Tyranitar is the most consistent against all playstyles. I'm not going to mention Assault Vest Conkeldurr, oops, but I did use that when Kyurem + Lopunny usage peaked in NDPL.
My small takeaway is to keep innovating and adjusting teams to the moving target of the metagame, a pretty obvious statement but it was great to see players bring out sets in NDPL and circuit. Kate's Deoxys-Defense is one of the best and I'm sure our small but growing playerbase can rumble up some cool things beyond Dragon Dance Zard Y
 
Last edited:
Thanks for taggin me bud pannuracotta

been playing the tier a little bit more since ndpl
here are my woke takes

Unordered:
Indisputable top 5 :clefable::lopunny-mega::landorus-therian::toxapex::heatran: or one of the waters or something

Offensive brokens (Beside lop and tran):
:kyurem::weavile::kartana:
a tier below::medicham-mega::volcarona::serperior::charizard-mega-x:bunch of other random shit like kommo beedrill king1

Metagame Insights :ske:
:gliscor: - exploited by most offensive mons (including heatran), doesn't force as much shit out compared to lando so can't be a reliable pivot either
:ferrothorn: - broken once u mfs learn 2 respect hazards and build properly w it Avery
:scizor-mega: - Holy shit this mon is unreliable offensively and defensively especially when u take off turn!!! shit attempt to wall the brokens when u can simply keep up hazards or out offense
 

Avery

Banned deucer.
ill do it too, props to u pannu this is a great idea

1: :landorus-therian:
this was tough but i have to put it over heatran, its the most splashable mon in the tier, it has a set for basically every team, and its the best glue mon. i thought helmet was kinda mid lately but it is the stopgap you need it to be and even if it doesnt stick around forever, the teams it fits on arent supposed to drag out games to begin with. i think sub + sd is underexplored but very very scary in the right positions as well.

2: :heatran:
steelium is a hit and a half in this current metagame but that aside this pokemon has infinite defensive utility as long as you dont pull the greedy ass rocks toxic and lose to cm clefable. speaking of cm clef, this mon is the single best check to one of the most potent and annoying wincons in the tier, which is invaliable in and of itself.

3: :weavile:
this pokemon kills everything? knock + axel is devastating and pursuit support is enormous for mons like kart / clef to go in. this mon's impact cannot be overstated

4: :lopunny-mega:
offense is incredible right now and having a mon that denies offense while having enough depth in its moveset to annoy balance is ridiculous

5: :clefable:
CM is still... underprepped for? its kinda impressive how the best wincon in the history of forever is still doing its thing. utility sets have limitless depth on balance too as well as wish/hwish/trick being pretty nice nowadays as a 4th moveslot

i dont feel like going very in depth with the latter 5 but here they are

6: :kartana:
longterm cplay is inconsistent unless u run a fatter team but then sd becomes annoying and its just a long ass annoying cycle of problematic kart sets for each team

7: :toxapex:
this stuffs like everything in the metagame rn, knock + scald is also great at making progress atm

8: :tapu-fini:
holy this mon is so disruptive, from trick scarf to standard taunt to cm pulling wins out of nowhere, no team is rly safe vs fini. madness is also a broken move

9: :mawile-mega:
progress god + impossible to switch into

10: :ferrothorn:
the god of spikes belongs here, as usual spikes are 1 of the best ways to consistently make progress

honorable mention: volcarona. fuck this mon. fuck kyurem too.
 
My Top 10
1. :ss/heatran: Heatran is the best wallbreaker in the tier (steelium in particular is hugely threatening). Also relatively easy to fit on teams since it offers such valuable defensive utility in checking Clef/Ferro/Serp/Vic etc. Easy number 1.
2. :ss/landorus-therian: Lando is the most splashable mon in the tier and an invaluable glue. While helmet Lando (being the fantastic stopgap it is) is what people have been gravitating towards recently, one still needs to consider how this mon has a bunch of other viable sets like Scarf and SD too.
3. :xy/lopunny-mega: Indisputable best mega in the tier. Threatens offense like nothing else. Best speed control in the tier.
4. :ss/tapu-fini: Best bulky water in the tier. Solid check to mons like Heatran/Ash-gren/Weavile/Kommo-o etc. Has huge versatility with many different sets in Defog, CM, Scarf, and Whirlpool.
5. :ss/weavile: This mon singlehandedly brings down the viability of ND's psychics and ghosts. Triple Axel hits like a truck and can achieve pretty incredible damage calcs. Knock annoys switch ins like Fini/Pex/Melm. Great rkiller with Ice Shard and Pursuit.
6. :ss/clefable: Support clef is epic role compression. Cm clef is still a highly reliable wincon. I've even beaten Tran with CM Thunder lmao.
7. :ss/tapu-koko: Probably my most unorthodox choice on the list but I'll stand by it. A bunch of BO teams can't really answer this mon and get volted on forever if Koko catches their ground type with HP ice once. This mon beats the most prominent ground types in the tier. Pretty hard to wear down Roost + Boots sets too.
8. :ss/latias-mega: This mon is the centerpiece of balance/fat teams. Checks/Counters dangerous mons like Kart/Garchomp/Heatran/ZardY. Can run a variety of different CM sets like boltbeam, shocksphere, refresh. I've seen some Defog sets too. Best check to mega latias has still gotta be the move toxic lol.
9. :ss/toxapex: Pex will never be bad. Fini has been taking the spotlight for a while, but Pex still checks/counters like 70% of the tier while being impossible to wear down so here it is at number 9.
10. :ss/kartana: I personally am not very fond of this mon and think some people oversell it but it still deserves at least top 10 ig. Scarf is good vs offense and Band can be a very scary breaker. Technically beats all of its checks/counters (except mlati) on paper with Z-moves. Appreciates the decline of Corviknight but really doesn't like scarf zone.
 
Last edited:

Mollymiltoast

formerly Molly
everything’s been said sooooooo
Here’s my top 10 + underrated mons deserving motherly love and attention. :)
(1-10) :Lopunny: :heatran: :landorus-therian: :weavile: :toxapex: :clefable: :Tapu Fini: :Magnezone: :latias-mega: :kartana:
(Kyurem should be on here but fuck that thing)

:zapdos: Jesus this thing is an offensive powerhouse. The z and specs have been shining lately for a reason. Most balances have difficulty finding a check for this mon naturally let alone a pivot. https://pokepast.es/97d699a8f06b9eeb for example: this relatively standard bulky offense has almost no defensive counter play to zapdos. Everything is 1 hit or 2 hit by fly / electric type and 1/2 of the two things faster than zapdos aren’t keen to attack it due to the residual of static.

:Victini: Avery has shown how annoying this mon could be. Victini has an insane move pool from special to physical and has proved to be a great pivot In the current meta.

:scizor-mega: by no means underrated but godamn the sand tomb set is sexy

:Tapu Lele: absolutely devastates balance / fat. From scarf to twisted spoon/ taunt and z this mon is a great breaker. Bordering top 10 for sure.

:deoxys-defense: anytime I’ve reached a state of happiness it quickly declines as I remember Kate decided to create demon deo-d, possibly the most heinous set in nat dex. Jokes aside this thing is a great late game sweeper barring fast toxic or taunt.

:moltres-galar: pretty unexplored potent setup sweeper. I’m sure we’ll see action out of this boy in WC.

:zapdos-galar: also a good powerhouse but with the rise of zapdos I have no right to encourage the use of this mon.

:Tyranitar-mega: :excadrill: still decent imo

:greninja: bro

:Venusaur: :torkoal: sun is easily the most unexplored weather and for no good reason. Venu penetrates most defensive cores with ease. Pair it with weavile to trap thick dragons. (:latias: :dragonite:)

Y’all need to use these more
:garchomp: :Tapu Koko: :rotom-wash: :mawile-mega: :medicham-mega: :Urshifu: :ferrothorn:

:Diancie-mega: Offensively it’s really prediction reliant but it actually covers a lot of sweepers defensively like :volcarona: :moltres-galar:

Beep bop boop btw stall fucking blows. Stop using that shit
 
Figured I might as well join in on this (I think everyone else has already explained these well enough already):

1. :heatran:/:Landorus-therian:
2. :weavile:
3. :Lopunny-mega:
4.:tapu-fini:
5. :Clefable:
6. :ferrothorn:
7. :Toxapex:
8. :mawile-mega:
9. :scizor-mega:
10. :Latias-mega:

Honorable mentions: :kartana:, :kyurem:, :magnezone:, :gliscor:

Also, some mons that are a bit underrated or just really good rn:

:victini:

Boots sets are just really good at not only dealing heavy damage, but also being able to pivot into and softcheck mons like Tapu Lele and Clefable. Fire + Electric coverage is already difficult to switch into, but when you also factor in U-turn and Tini's extremely customizable 4th moveslot (i.e. Toxic, Glaciate, Scorching Sands, Encore, Energy Ball, etc.), Victini becomes even more threatening to handle.

:diancie-mega:

A bit prediction reliant, but super hard for most offenses and certain balances to switch into, especially if you can afford a different rocker and run 4A, which ruins common defensive cores like Washtom+Ferro+Lando, Lando+Fini+Tran, etc.

:latios-mega:

If Weavile wasn't so common atm, I honestly think Mtios would be used at least a bit more often given its great offensive and defensive profile. Psychic + Fighting coverage is already really solid coverage as shown by its twin, but when considering how customizable the third attack is, checking Mtios consistently can prove difficult. I personally love Ice Beam for instanly removing grounds or Mystical Fire to hit stuff like MSciz and Ferro, but other options like Thunder/Tbolt to hit Fini + Slowtwins and Draco Meteor to just be a general nuke are really good options as well.

:greninja:

Protean Gren is really good rn given its ability to bluff Ash-Gren and also provide Spikes that'll likely stay up given its ability to destroy Fini (which is pretty much the main fogger rn) while also being difficult to handle on a consistent basis for most cores given its set versatility. Special Waterium Z (AKA Hydro Pump/Gunk Shot/HP Fire/Spikes) is arguably the best set, but other options like Boots and Z-Dig also have considerable merit (don't run scarf , it's just meh).

:zapdos:

Offensive Zap is the wave rn and man is it effective. It's just so much fun clicking Z-Hurricane and just being generally difficult to switch into, especially with support like Pursuit from Weavile or Spikes.

:tapu-koko:

Similar case to Zapdos.

:tapu-lele:

Corv has dropped quite a bit in usage for a long time now, which makes Lele all the more threatening. Most other steels are a Focus Blast or HP Fire away from being unable to check it the next time it switches in. Specs, Spoon, and Z are all super threating, but Scarf is also gaining traction since it's super easy to facilitate as a cleaner for offense structures.

:gastrodon:

Sort of an anti-meta mon since it generally annoys a lot of what has been rising up lately (Zap, CM Clefable, Washtom, Fini, Heatran, Prot Gren, Volcarona lacking Giga Drain, etc). Only really fits on fatter teams but is overall a choice I think is worth considering on those structures rn.

:buzzwole:

Decent check to stuff like Kart (barring Norm Z), Weavile and M-Lop with Helmet while also being able to actually threaten stuff with its decent Attack stat + coverage. Obviously has its downsides though, such as its nonexistant special bulk.

:Melmetal:

Basically what peap already said.
 

Jho

is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
Moderator
I would also like to farm some internet points today
1:ss/landorus-therian:
2:ss/weavile:
3:ss/lopunny-mega:
4:ss/tapu fini:
5:ss/heatran:
6:ss/clefable:
7:ss/ferrothorn:
8:ss/mawile-mega:
9:ss/kartana:
10:ss/kyurem::ss/zapdos::ss/toxapex::ss/diancie-mega:
Couldn't decide between these for a 10th, Zapdos is actually pretty good if u don't subscribe to fat defog or FlyZ sets, stuff like boots 3a/volt and sub hurricane are nice. 3a Z Kyurem is a pretty unfair wallbreaker too.
 
Probably gonna get flamed for some of these opinions but...

1.

A lot of mons really could be #1 spot, but imo mlop is better then all of them if just slightly. The mon is good on and against basically any team style, especially due to it's nigh unmatched speed tier bar scarfers and weather speed doublers, it exerts great pressure at all times weather running the pup or pivot set, yall know lop is rly good and will probably be good forever.
2.

Weavile is kinda just broken, as it murders just about anything if you give it the oppertunity to do so, as it's cb set basically two hits the entire tier and traxel + knock is just a stupid combo, add suit to stuff switches and rly good priority, and you get one of the biggest threats in the tier. Honestly vile might have been above lop cuz of it's ability to destroy things with it's sd z set, but it's sr weakness and being outsped by koko holds it back just a bit.
3.

Fini is just a really good mon, even though I don't find myself running it that often, fini is very obviously potent and I can't ignore that, it defensively checks just about everything that isn't a grass or an electric, misty terrain is broken utility, it's a great fogger, and taunt + whirlpool and other sets like natures madness and just scald in general make it very not passive which is a huge flaw most bulky waters suffer. Also while it didn't impact my rank that much, I do feel like scafini should be mentioned sheerly because it's suprise factor is great and it's a surprisingly potent cleaner that's decently hard to stop late game and needs more love.
4.

Magnezone is just really damn good, specs is fine and can be pretty threatening on occasion, but imo the underrated star is scarf zone, being able to deal with fast sciz, which is great in the age of sand tomb, but most importantly trap kart, limiting it to at most one kho which is huge for basically all non ho playstyles, scarf zone also offers a really nice speed tier outpacing the 80-serp speed tiers which is really nice when complemented by it's honestly really good dual stab and volt. Zone has some flaws, and in some mu's just does nothing which sucks, but it's potential and ability to enable entire teams carries it to the fourth spot
5.

Clefable can just do some much, and no matter what it chooses to do it's usually great at it. CM lorb bolt beam sets are legitimately threatening as they put a ton of pressure and have little response. Clef is just a generally great rocker as well, as blast + flame or bolt beam basically covers every fogger. Una clef, while flawed, is one of my favorite mons to stick on semi stall and balance, probably due to my unjustified fear of dragons but hey, it's really good at what it does. Also aroma/heal bell and knock clef are really underated and need to see more use in this meta.
6.
/

I know this is not allowed but I want to do it anyway, serp and volc are pretty much the same mon for me anyway, really annoying hard to stop breakers that you have to have specific checks for or you just die. They are both flawed and prone to getting hard walled on occasion (especially volc), but both are more so annoying because of their niche sets, volc on stall is legitimately terrifying at times being a very potent mincon, and niche hps like rock or ground or fog serp or taunt serp have messed me up and can be really threatening.
7.

Koko is kinda insane honestly, every balance team just dies if you make one right read on their ground, and it's vile outpacing speed tier is amazing, and the fact that it has boots and even z sets to deny the counterplay of relying on it being specs makes it all the greater of a mon. Also screens koko lucha is still good imo, especially if your team isn't prepared for it.
8.

Ima be honest, I don't like using tran in this meta that much, it is a massive threat don't get my wrong, but I tend to find myself preferring other fires like molt blace and vic over it as I can't help but feel tran can fall behind due to it's speed tier against offensive teams. Objectively though, tran is a very potent mon and should in all honesty be ranked higher, as it has a ton of very threatening moves it can run, alongside incredible utility with flash fire. However, I don't find it better than any of the mons I put it above. One thing to not is that tran has a ton of underutilized sets such as steel beam z and firium z alongside air balloon which I think should be experimented with
9.

Spike demon, that can sudo check everything and is a glue mon that I genuinely prefer to lando. One of my favorite steels as well. In the age of trying to find kyu checks, ferro does a great job and has tons of options and utility. While its lack of ways to block fog is annoying, knock + team support can easily alleviate this issue. My main issue with ferro is that if you make a single wrong switch and your opponent doubles you, you loose all momentum and your opponent may have just killed your only check to their big threat. This can turn it into a big liability in some games if your not careful, but it's still an incredibly potent mon.
10.

Great speed tier, makes fat viable, stored power reflect type sets are genuinely very hard to stop unless your opponent has a sableye, and it gets obliterated suiters even with aura if you don't catch them on the switch. This flaw is substantial enough that imo it holds mlati back to this spot, but it's still an amazing mon that defines a playstyle, which makes it just on the cusp of top ten.

Also no ground in this list is intentional because I hate them all and they all suck at their job, if you wanted a mon in on this list, put them on as an unofficial number 11.
 

ChrisPBacon

Lucky and bad
is a Tiering Contributor
Here's my top 10:
:landorus-therian::weavile::lopunny-mega::heatran::tapu-fini::kartana::toxapex::latias-mega:(latias):ferrothorn::clefable:

Now onto mons that I personally love/think are underrated in the meta rn:
:chansey:
GOD this pokemon is the love of my life. On fat teams its arguably the best answer to the standard kyurem sets while providing rocks for the team. Its movepool is also rly versatile, you can run tox, confide, aroma to support the team. The mon is also super cool on offensive teams, the backbone against most lele, kyurem, gren, volc and zapdos is incredible and wish in particular is able to provide massive support to ur teammates.
:moltres:
Compresses so many roles for offense, being able to at least soft check lop, tran, volc while providing fog/uturn support can be insane, knock is def an annoyance tho.
:tapu-lele::latios-mega: (latios)
Obviously lele isnt underrated at all but latios kinda is + im using this as a bat signal to explore protect on these guys as a way of counter-fucking with weavile
:zapdos: :tapu-koko:
so fucking scary to switch into, they exploit the common defensive cores to no end and rly appreciate the lack of gastrodon rn
:greninja: (prot)
This guy is so good, cant for the life of me understand how ppl live with themselves using a protgren w/o uturn tho. Someone help pls asking for a friend
 

Kyo

In Limbo
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
I don't have a lot to add to this discussion that hasn't been done to death already. I will say I think Airfare and Avery are spot on with their top 5's. Mega Lop, Heatran, Lando, and Weavile are the most "guaranteed value" mons in the tier no contest and the 5th slot could, in my opinion, go to any of Pex, Gliscor, or Clef. As great as Tapu Fini is, there are some longevity issues especially as a knock off switch-in that doesn't want to lose lefties so it doesn't make top 5 for me. Since my full list is gonna be pretty similar to everyone else, I'll just highlight some mons that I think deserve more attention in the current meta.

:sm/medicham-mega:

Mega Medi is kind of amazing for when you're considering Mega Lopunny on a build but want more breaking power. I barely even see Slowbro anymore so the biggest issues you will have to deal with are usually Weavile and Zapdos. For that reason and Mega Diancie's rise in popularity, bullet punch feels like a must have on Medicham. I usually just drop fake out for it, they're the same power anyway. Medicham isn't good at replicating what Lop does by faking out for damage and then revenge KOing with the next hit anyway. Fini is a great partner that gets Medicham in on Pex safely and alleviates the Zapdos matchup a bit.

:sm/moltres:

Admittedly a bit hard to build with. Offers great value for balance teams though. Not good at hard walling most mons, but soft checks like a million different threats including Mega Mawile, Heatran, Kartana, Weavile, Mega Scizor, and Mega Lopunny. The Lop matchup is especially important because it's a u-turn deterrent against a mon that is otherwise a perpetual momentum-generating machine. Also cool to spam mystical fire against CM users until they're forced to heal for a turn and take that opportunity to switch safely to an offensive check.

:sm/tangrowth: :assault vest:

Here's a mon that feels weirdly forgotten in NatDex. I think AV Tang is still quite solid (and much better overall than helmet) as a regen mon that fits on balance without being as passive as Pex. It's a very good answer to choiced Ash Gren, Kart, and Koko as well as any Fini set. Great at knocking off items and it has a very customizable movepool. Run EQ to stay in on Heatran and hit back hard. Run sludge bomb to fish for poison on Lati, Zapdos, and Moltres. Even rock slide is passable if your team looks too weak to Volcarona as this mon will inevitably try to use you as setup fodder. The calcs don't lie.

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 326-386 (80.6 - 95.5%)
0 Atk Tangrowth Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 308-364 (99 - 117%)
 

Sulo

face the fear and shred it to pieces
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Moderator
I'd like to bring up one of the more interesting mons in the meta rn:

:ss/Clefable:

How do you guys think this mon is performing rn? I've been experimenting w/ off-Clef using Moonblast / Flamethrower / Thunderbolt / Soft-Boiled, since it's very good at taking advantage of Pex, Fini, Ferro, and can potentially get the jump on greedy Scizors / Magnezones as well. What do you guys think is it's best set and what have you done to make it more interesting to use?
 

pannu

「GO BEYOND」
is a Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
hi i wanted to highlight some pokemon which i find have either underexplored, underused, underrated sets; or overrated / suboptimal sets which see common usage. this is just based on my personal experience / opinion

:ss/tapu-lele:

Tapu Lele is one of NatDex's most threatening Pokemon. Insanely strong Psychic-moves and its insane coverage makes it a demon to switch into. Ive been using lele alot as of recent and have come to the conclusion that Choice Specs Tapu Lele is not that good in the current meta. Obviously Choice Scarf sets are still good, its among the best speed control options the tier has. However, with how common defensive cores that rely on lele being choice locked to handle it like Steel-type + CB Weav, Msciz + Pex, etc are i think that being able to switch up your moves is very ideal if you're relying on Tapu Lele to break. Personally I've been liking 4a AV recently, 80 HP hit 301 HP which makes you 4hkod by Seismic Toss so that you comfortably stay in on Chansey / Blissey, with the Speed ensuring that you outspeed any Heatran variant. AV also lets it act as a great soft check to pokemon like Ash-Greninja, Kyurem, Mega Lati@s, and even opposing Tapu Lele. Twisted Spoon is also a fun option for 4a Offensive and it hits some important benchmarks like 2hkoing chansey if rocks are up. CM is as good as ever and I've even seen some friends like Mollymiltoast and peap experiment with Taunt Metronome, and Protect has been brought up by ChrisPBacon Before. Im sure that there's more sets that can be used, or move options im not considering, 4A Z move? IDef CM kisspower? Substitute? No clue, im sure that there are alot of cool options for stuff to run on Tapu Lele and you shouldn't limit yourself to running a set that gets neturalized by any competent player with a CB weavile.

:ss/ferrothorn:

Everyone knows what Ferrothorn does, im not gonna get into that. However, literally every Ferrothorn in NatDex is SPdef or some terrible unset like Chople. Hello??? why arent people running RH Physdef?? This is THE Weavile/Gliscor/Mega Scizor/Lando-T/Mlop/MegaPert/Kart???/EVERY OTHER PHYSICAL ATTACKER punisher rn! with ashgren falling off idt u need full spdef, im not sure my evs are totally optimal as theres probably some special hit you can EV to tank but man racking up passive damage w/ this thing is so satisfying.

:ss/melmetal:

ill be quicker with this one but the TL;DR is that lefties melm is a waste of a steel and only protpads and av are good with protpads being rlly good.
The amount of Rocky Helmet spam in the tier rn to deal W/ mlop weav kart etc puts melm in a position where it very rarely can click DIB without losing half of its HP, and as such i think that protpads are good af rn. AV is cool to check lele/mlati@s and cm clef

:ss/corviknight:

Corviknight sucks HARD rn, bringing it is basically like begging ur opp "please... have 0 zone usage in all of ur teams". This is, of course, unless you bring TURBOCORV. now ik what u r thinking "damn pannu this looks awful af" but let me tell u this turbocorv + speedcontrol beats EVERYTHING u want ur corv to beat. Kart/MSciz/Mmaw? Zoner. Lele/lati? Weavile. literally anything else? JUST UTURN INTO AN OFFENSIVE CHECK BROOO. ngl i think corv is some B tier unviable garbo but this is THE (the) set that i fw rn
 
:sm/latias-mega:
Sub/stored power or refresh/stored power mlati here deserves a shout. Having mlati on your team during weavile meta may seem counter-intertuitive however people tend to rely on weavile as their main offensive presence on a lot of balances right now and its often the only dark type on its team, forcing them to keep weavile in the back all game or get destroyed by stored power wincon later on. You keeping mlati in the back isnt as harmful to your progress as keeping weavile in the back for them is so you have effectively an advantaged 5v5 matchup. pair with something that sets up in weaviles face or punishes it with chip to discourage it even more from trying to break early like one of these bad boys :urshifu-rapid-strike::ferrothorn: :volcarona::bisharp::blaziken:.

:ss/bisharp:
Speaking of bish this thing is an absolute monster severely underrated for what it does to common defensive cores. To wall this thing you seriously need a non-intimidate phys wall like buzzwole or hippo or an offensive fairy/fighting to force it out. Hazard stack makes this thing brutal to play against where if your koko/mlop/mdiancie is chipped 35% (think about how easy it is to chip these guys) it dies to +2 sucker. Throw in all the other utility it provides like switching into defog at +2 and then setting up to +4 potentially. Pairs so incredibly with any form of hazard stacking whether its webs/screens/spikes+rocks. you can setup behind screens with no fear of them being removed or intimidate cycling to kill turns, you can outspeed and beat a large number of offensive checks with webs and kill plenty of checks at +2 after hazards chip with hstack.
 
:ss/tapu-lele:

Tapu Lele is one of NatDex's most threatening Pokemon. Insanely strong Psychic-moves and its insane coverage makes it a demon to switch into. Ive been using lele alot as of recent and have come to the conclusion that Choice Specs Tapu Lele is not that good in the current meta. Obviously Choice Scarf sets are still good, its among the best speed control options the tier has. However, with how common defensive cores that rely on lele being choice locked to handle it like Steel-type + CB Weav, Msciz + Pex, etc are i think that being able to switch up your moves is very ideal if you're relying on Tapu Lele to break. Personally I've been liking 4a AV recently, 80 HP hit 301 HP which makes you 4hkod by Seismic Toss so that you comfortably stay in on Chansey / Blissey, with the Speed ensuring that you outspeed any Heatran variant. AV also lets it act as a great soft check to pokemon like Ash-Greninja, Kyurem, Mega Lati@s, and even opposing Tapu Lele. Twisted Spoon is also a fun option for 4a Offensive and it hits some important benchmarks like 2hkoing chansey if rocks are up. CM is as good as ever and I've even seen some friends like Mollymiltoast and peap experiment with Taunt Metronome, and Protect has been brought up by ChrisPBacon Before. Im sure that there's more sets that can be used, or move options im not considering, 4A Z move? IDef CM kisspower? Substitute? No clue, im sure that there are alot of cool options for stuff to run on Tapu Lele and you shouldn't limit yourself to running a set that gets neturalized by any competent player with a CB weavile.
I do agree that specs Lele is not great right now. The speed especially with specs set kinda feels like a let down and invites in dangerous threats if stuck on psychic (cough Weavile cough).

These are some fun and interesting sets you've suggested! I myself quite like 3a+protect with future sight.


:ss/ferrothorn:

Everyone knows what Ferrothorn does, im not gonna get into that. However, literally every Ferrothorn in NatDex is SPdef or some terrible unset like Chople. Hello??? why arent people running RH Physdef?? This is THE Weavile/Gliscor/Mega Scizor/Lando-T/Mlop/MegaPert/Kart???/EVERY OTHER PHYSICAL ATTACKER punisher rn! with ashgren falling off idt u need full spdef, im not sure my evs are totally optimal as theres probably some special hit you can EV to tank but man racking up passive damage w/ this thing is so satisfying
This one I think I can answer. Ash Greninja may be falling off but Kyurem is as dangerous as ever, possibly more so, and without Spdef Ferro can't really check it. Especially Icium Z sets. Granted I have opinions on Kyurem and whether it's dumb but that's not relevant.

Regarding Corv I have to agree. Magnezone being as dominant and effective as it is, it's tough to handle the things it wants to. Also it's a steel who can't check Kyurem. I don't like it at all honestly.

Edit: my brain is small and I forgot to talk about it.


deoxys-defense.png
But with DeoD being a thing with its cosmic power set, for anyone who has used it to success, what are some team structures you use with it? What have you found the most success with?
 
Last edited:
So uhm
For :deoxys-defense: I am gonna focus on this set: https://pokepast.es/1912a9f55cde65f3

U can read the explanation here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/deoxys-d.3699513/#post-9165907

Of course, one of the most threatening mon to deoxys is :weavile: as knock off can do the ton even if Deoxys is at +1, assuming the item is on the picture:

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Defense: 300-354 (98.6 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO


252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Defense: 200-236 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And one more thing, The Swords dance :weavile: can potentially turn the :deoxys-defense: into a set-up fodder, as vile can tank at least 2 night shades from full:


+2 252 Atk Weavile Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Defense: 326-386 (107.2 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Deoxys-Defense Night Shade vs. 0 HP Weavile: 100-100 (35.5 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

In conclusion the main issues against :deoxys-defense: are not only :weavile:, but any ou relevant dark types in general: :Greninja-Ash: :Tyranitar: :Tyranitar-Mega: :Hoopa-unbound:

Therefore, dark resists are a good deoxys-defense partner: :Tapu-Fini: :Clefable:

Barring that, i think that Deo is a good late game sweeper with fast taunt and cosmic power
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top