Doubles National Dex Doubles OU - Metagame Discussion - Mega Metagross Banned!

[bagel]

First off I want to clarify that I'm not trying to criticize the tier / how its run at all, just sharing my thoughts on the current metagame. ND DOU is extremely awesome whether I personally enjoy playing it or not and I'm very happy that it was able to get off the ground and I hope it keeps growing (part of why I'm writing this).

I like to think I have a good amount of experience with the tier, as I've been playing since relatively early on as well as helping build / play in both Derby and NDPL, and I'm currently helping out in NDFL. I'm basing this post off of my personal experience playing/watching games, the NDPL usage stats, team (1) dumps (2), and any salvaged replays from Derby/NDPL/NDFL.

Basically, I don't think the tier is fun or rewarding to play or build in its current state. Despite having seemingly more options than any other doubles tier, I have felt more limited in the builder when building for ND DOU than even current gen DOU. There are 2/3 teamcomps/strategies that just feel far and away the strongest, most successful, and most consistent to the point where I (and top players) don't really see a reason to deviate from them or explore in the builder.

The 2 main compositions I want to focus on are Setupspam/Coachingspam and Urshifu offense (often they can overlap on the same team). The vast majority of successful teams have been centered around abusing Coaching + anti-disruption (Clear Amulet, Covert Cloak, Defiant, etc) on bulky physical attackers such as Zygarde, Kyurem-B, and Kingambit or abusing Urshifu-R + Tornadus/Chien Pao (or both at once). Tera + Clear Amulet on Pokemon with such absurd stats like Kyruem and Zygarde makes it extremely difficult to stop them from setting up with the myriad of excellent support options in the tier such as Kangaskhan, Zeraora, Rillaboom, Jirachi, Tapu Fini, and many others. The best way to combat this usually tends to be to set up with your own raid boss and play to out position your opponent as you each race to boost as much as possible. Otherwise the best bet is generally to try and blow up the opponent with insane offensive pressure from combinations like Urshifu-R + Rain Dance Tornadus and Chien Pao.

So many games I have played have boiled down to either "Who can get their raid boss set up faster?" while pivoting around with your support mons in the other slot or "Can I blow them up fast enough to not lose?". Maybe it is a skill issue on my end but anytime I have tried to experiment with new builds and test them against competent players they always fall flat and eventually it came to the point where recycling the same 2 ideas became a better idea than actually engaging with the tier.

I personally have flipped back and forth on the brokenness of certain mons. I believe I was one of the first people to bring up Zygarde/tera boost sweepers as a concern, but ended up voting no ban during the suspect test as I had just discovered the power of Tera-Water Surging Strikes in Rain and didn't feel like Zygarde was too strong (the secret is that they are both broken). As of right now I think that this tier would really benefit from some sort of tiering action, whether that be testing/retesting the most common culprits and enablers (Zygarde/Kyurem-B/Jirachi/Urshifu) or even a ban on items or moves such as Clear Amulet or Coaching. I don't know what the solution is or if this is even a problem for most players, but I just wanted to share my thoughts on the current state of the tier because as it is now I don't really see myself returning to it after the current tours I'm involved in finish up.

 

[Smudge]

Terapagos is now banned from National Dex Doubles by a unanimous vote!

​

	big pichu	Smudge	eragon11145	Nido-Rus	Spurrific	YoBuddy	zee
Terapagos	ban	ban	ban	ban	ban	ban	ban

With an incredible base stat total making it extraordinarily difficult to remove, a strong setup option in Calm Mind and an unresisted high power spread attack in Stellar Tera Starstorm, combined with the plethora of fantastic support options in this tier (see: Evoboost, Jirachi) as well as being viable in multiple different team structures make Terapagos overly centralizing and too much to handle. As there are already things that require tiering more urgently, we found it prudent to ban this sooner rather than later.

Do note that it will not be legal in the next round of the Swiss Tournament.

 

[Smudge]

We're suspecting Coaching! Check out the reasoning and details here.

Also, the teambuilder has been modified to show all legal National Dex Pokemon. Anything you see in the builder minus Necrozma-Ultra and Zygarde-C (due to a technicality that will be resolved) should be legal for usage, as banned Pokemon are filtered out. Enjoy DLC2!

 

[Test Bots]

VR Nominations:

--> Tier 3
Unlike the other mons in Tier 2, this mon clearly needs some kind of speed advantage. I don't think bulk alone is going to cut it.

--> Tier 1
Even without Coaching, assistance of Clear Amulet and Tera makes it the best setup mon of the tier. There is less than a handful of mons that actually resist Thousand Arrows (Rilla and Waterpon just to name a few). Extreme Speeds does nice chip damage and makes Zyg one of the fastest mon in the meta.

--> Tier 2
This mon tend to go up and down the tiers a lot. Despite the presence of Fini, it still is a reliable redirector and healer. It can completely wreck a team that doesn't prepare for it.

--> Tier 2
Imo, the mon doesn't stay long in the battle. It is almost like a suicide lead (it probably is). However, the impact it makes in the long run is well worth it. Its hazards chip off so much of the opposing mon's bulk that KO'ing them is that much easier.

--> Tier 4
It probably has a niche as a tailwind setter with some good defensive properties. However, it is not the premier choice amongst mons with Grass or Fighting type moves. Not being able to outspeed 350 Spe hurts it a lot.

--> Tier 2
Another good redirector with a more offensive presence.

--> Tier 4
No more Coaching.

--> Tier 4
For the past rounds, no one has been really using this. As a rocks setter, it is outclassed by Glimmora. As a mon with ground coverage, it is outclassed by Zyg. I think Tera Blast (Flying) is situationally good, but also a waste of tera. Intimidate is still good.

--> Tier 3
I don't know how this mon dropped to Tier 4 in the first place, but it is the best support mon killer; it can do a considerable damage to mons like Rachi, Rilla, Incineroar, Iron Hands (via Groundium Z) and Guss. Of course, its defensive properties is also a plus.

--> UR
No one is using this.

--> Tier 4
It has a really good offensive presence and is probably the only viable Rock Slide user. Extreme Speed is also good for cleaning up weakened mons. However, it needs speed advantage to make most of its sets.

--> 4
Another good redirector with an awesome ability + signature move, but not as slappable to a team.

--> Tier 3
I think the best set for this mon is Weakness Policy; it has the bulk to reliably use it. Priority STAB checks a lot of mons and its other STAB can do considerable damage. It may need some terrain control though (Ice Spinner or other Terrains).

 

[Glimmer]

I haven't made a viability post since Coaching ban so here we go!

Tier 1

Rillaboom is still a utility menace with crazy damage output, getting even more viable with the banning of Coaching as its ability to beat Zygarde is no longer a question mark. It just has so much going for it and I would largely advise you to not drop it if you don't have a really good reason to.

I wouldn't say that Urshifu got better with the Coaching ban we are just now realizing that this is the actual most broken mon in the format. Really, what can't it do? Even if you stack all the Urshifu counters in a team it will still get good value as all of its "counters" actually just get beaten by either Choice Scarf or Mystic Water.

Flutter is just the best mon to put in there when you don't know what to put as a last slot. It doesn't have apparent weaknesses or apparent things that beat it, it has high speed, utility in the form of Icy Wind, and a lot of power all in one neat package. It also has broken Booster Energy which contributes a lot as its second most common set is Booster Speed.

Tier 2

Mega Mence was one of the best Coaching abusers so it should be less viable right? No not really. MMence is one of the best partners and checks to both Urshifu-R and Rillaboom, while having fast speed control and absurd power. The massive return of Jirachi also means Dragon Dance Mega Salamence is at an all time high in terms of viability.

With the ban of Coaching, Jirachi has once again secured its place as the best support to any type of support, due to its massive list of resists and good bulk paired with Follow Me and various utility moves like Encore, Trick Room, and Stealth Rock.

Just cannot run away from TornShifu can we. Besides, here it even gets Flyinium Z to absolutely nuke things that annoy Urshifu-R, like the potentially Will-O-Wisp Volcanion and Mega Salamence. It also has surprising bulk and power on top of the most broken type of speed control in the game in the form of Prankster Tailwind.

Volcanion's issue previously was that with Coaching physical attackers would just gain boosts and OHKO even with its massive bulk. Now with that gone Volcanion is back to previous glory. And hey, if they try to outscale your bulk through setup moves, just Will-O-Wisp them! They can't passively gain boosts like with Coaching anyways.

Now that one of the best mons in the tier is a less bulky Fighting, Kingambit can continue to go ham. SD Black Glasses Knock Off is just not something anything can comfortably switch in on. Admittedly it is still not the easiest to get Kingambit going, but if SD does not fit the pace of your team, Assault Vest is still a very viable option with a lot of Teras too.

Chien-Pao is kinda absord with its damage output and supporting capability, which is now unique to it since Coaching ban. This might even deserve a ban somewhere down the line as Life Orb completely shreds through everything and Focus Sash gives a free Life Orb to your broken attacker for at least 3 turns.

Zygarde's absurdness streak ends here! Not. While its checks are at least now actual checks due to it not being able to boost its Defense and Speed at the same time, Jirachi + DD Zygarde is still an absurd combo. Choice Band also is now better due to the best Wide Guard user being down in the trenches, it can now freely spam Thousand Arrows and Thousand Waves.

Fini can actually check Mega Salamence and Urshifu-R again, yay! Tapu Fini's Calm Mind set is also now better due to the rise of Jirachi. But its other sets in support, Choice Scarf, and Choice Specs; are still very good in gluing comps together.

Pretty broken still but at least its absurd power is now locked behind Steel Roller instead of just naturally getting it by existing beside a Zamazenta. Bannable? Probably, not right now. At least it needs double Terrain and Tailwind to be proper broken.

Honestly its insanity is really situational, good players can easily play around Spectral Thief and the only really good matchup it has is into Flutter HO which can just Tera Fairy Flutter and OHKO the Marshadow. It doesn't have enough stats to be truly broken. But hey, it still has a broken signature move and broken STAB combo.

Sun is pretty cool. Its main detriment of not being able to fit Coaching is gone, you also now have Raging Bolt as an actually viable counter to Water-types. ZardY can even run 3 attacks because sun can fit in Tornadus.

I'm not sure which set really makes Glimmora Tier 2 but all of them feel so nice. Meteor Beam is a Nihilego with defensive prowess and can automatically set TSpikes which automatically makes the Balance matchup way easier as having your entire team be poisoned upon switch in is really annoying for bulkier archetypes. But at the same time double hazards is so good at passively wearing down things to get in range of being KO'd by things like Urshifu-R and Ursaluna-BM.

Its bulk isnt really carrying its weight like it did in other gens, but MKang is still a utility god that can 2HKO most mons in the tier. It is also just really solid to slot in when you don't want anything else defensively or offensively, as MKang provides good and consistent value when played decently.

Incineroar doesn't appreciate all the Clear Amulets, Covert Cloaks, and Urshifu-Rs running around, but it is still Incineroar. It can singlehandedly slow down or beat pokemon that dare not respect it just by switching in and out with Fake Out + Parting Shot.

Honorable Mentions + some Noms from lower tiers

Sorry for disrespecting this mon Normalium-Z is seriously a very good and threatening set, dismantling bulkier cores just by clicking a few buttons. I still don't think it is Tier 3 but I see the vision now, just stack some Urshifu hate into the team and Ursaluna-BM goes crazy.

Heatran is not that bad I guess. I still would not personally use it over Volcanion most the time but hey Scarf in Sun and Firium in Offense with Eruption is pretty decent.
Tier 3 -> Tier 5
Might even go unranked idk what this thing does without Coaching.
Tier 2 -> Tier 4
Might even be Tier 3, didn't have quite as much fall off as Zeraora. At least its still the fastest and one of the bulkiest mons in the format with rly good coverage and access to Howl.
Tier 3 -> Tier 4
No one uses this and with good reason, Basculegion in most ways is completely outclassed by Urshifu-RS and should only be used on Rain as a strong Swift Swim pokemon.
Tier 5 -> Tier 4
PsySpam is seriously scary if you don't have Prankster Tailwind, and Deo-A is the main reason for this. It is just so strong and even Expanding Forces outside of Psy Terrain does like 40 to Rillaboom it's insane.
Tier 4 -> Tier 3
Premier Psychic Terrain setter, even functions outside of PsySpam as a bulky redirection mon for Trick Room that denies priority, I love Indeedee-F right now.
NEW -> Tier 3
Best counter to TornShifu while also being good into Sun and Volcanion, cool mon, gets a lot of set up opportunities with Jirachi support and Thunderclap at +2 OHKOs most neutrals.
Tier 5 -> UR
Just unrank these, they serve no niche.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

So I got locked for saying wtf and U suck to some low ladder that loaded into me with some random unviable stuff (honorable mention to the guns for this appeal reject) so Iwanted to talk abt glastrier (again). Imo it's one of the best trick room abusers and I Do prefer it over Iron hands. I originally played a good ol' protect+3 attack set as following:

-Close Combat
-Icicle Crash
-Protect
-High Horsepower

252 Atk Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Glastrier: 312-368 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Its bulk is gigantic It Also takes Ursaluna's facade
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Glastrier: 315-372 (78.1 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And Well Its weight and speed is such that nO gyro ball or heavy slam comes in the way
252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Glastrier: 360-426 (89.3 - 105.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO 30% on megagross is pure power annnnd Because it's gen9 u can
TERA WATER: the distorded dimension's massacre
Tera Water glastrier was Unstoppable. only counterplay Really was rillaboom's grassy glide
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tera Water Glastrier in Grassy Terrain: 300-354 (74.4 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Wait no nevermind. Absolute massacre, add to It an Ursaluna and Nothing can possible take the hits. Support with cresslelia and the massacre won't stop. Never.

But recently, I fought some mid-to-low ladder guy that used a move. I knew glastrier knew it, but Never dared use it. And this move, it's CURSE. Curse glastrier is a beast. After one curse, bRING yor special attackers coz it won't be nice to see. Two curses are easy to place (especially with that bulk+clear amulet And Then it Will easely Snowball out of control

Curse glastrier gets unstoppable


-Curse
-Icicle Crash
-Protect
-High Horse Power
252+ Atk Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. +1 248 HP / 8 Def Tera Water Glastrier in Grassy Terrain: 288-342 (71.4 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
No such thing as physical OHKO.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. +1 248 HP / 8 Def Glastrier: 218-260 (54 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Even The Likes of 145 atk stab can't OHKO and break The ice. it's Even bulkier than flutter mane on The special side (lol) so 248HP is sufficient

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Glastrier: 282-332 (69.9 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO




0 Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Glastrier: 230-272 (57 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO If u didn't tera water, nO worries, The cat won't kill you. Coupled with curse and cresselia's lunar blessing, this duel is gonna be a joke.

Now glastrier is High af 145 atk. It can generally easely wreck a member of your team, it'll boost its attack and it'll be able to kill another etc until it's UNSTOPABLE.

+1 252+ Atk Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Incineroar: 362-428 (91.8 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
RNG intensifies

+1 252+ Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 306-360 (103 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO sun is dying to a horse

+1 252+ Atk Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chi-Yu: 444-524 (176.8 - 208.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO Fish.

+1 252+ Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Rillaboom: 510-602 (126.2 - 149%) -- guaranteed OHKO yet im being kind to rilla.

+1 252+ Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 399-471 (137.5 - 162.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO Yea T1 kinda sucks against dahorse

Annd you
+1 252+ Atk Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO kinda win.

+1 252+ Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna:474-560 (110.2 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Meanwhile, There are two mons in the tier that glastrier hate: urshifu-R and tapu-fini It needs Horse-power and a lot of boosts to OHKO em. Luckily, you dont die to them so you genrally win the duel. You low-key need +5 to OHKO fini and +4 for urshifu uninvested. Fortunately, TR features Ursaluna for who these arent problems At all.


All the +1 in calcs are basically Cause You easely get a curse setted and/or a kill and I could fairly have used +2 Cause glastrier is OP. send It in T3 would just be the right thing to Do imo


https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexdoubles-2045834413 it was not the best layer on ladder but this is just an example of glatrier's DOMINATION when ONE curse is hit. just

 

[EatFoods]

Just wanted to give a quick VR nomination:

Unranked to Tier 4/5

This may come as a bit of a strange nomination, but I do feel like Entei has some overlooked potential in the tier.

Entei is an excellent check to some big threats in the tier such as Rillaboom, Jirachi, Kingambit and it's able to beat Flutter Mane when using an Assault Vest. It's also able to use Tera Blast Grass to break through Water types like Tapu Fini and Urshifu Rapid-Strike while gaining a resistance to Ground and Water type attacks which usually would threaten it. It has some other useful tools such as Inner Focus to ignore Intimidate and Fake Out, Stomping Tantrum, Snarl, Will-O-Wisp, Roar and Extreme Speed.

There are some flaws with Entei being that it just loses to Volcanion and struggles to do work against Mega Salamence as well as not having a great speed tier and being limited to what structures it is able to work on.

A replay I want to highlight is Smudge's match against Xqiht where Entei is able to pick up an essential damage and a burn on Xqiht's Kingambit allowing it to secure a kill and live the Kowtow Cleave as well as being able to pickup a kill on the Volcarona with Extreme Speed the following turn which ultimately allowed Smudge to win the game.

 

[Smudge]

Time for a little housekeeping:

If you haven't seen yet, Coaching was banned via a suspect test on January 7th.

Almost a month has passed since then and a few weeks of tour play, so we feel like it's a good time to run a tiering survey. Please fill it out!

Survey Link

Additionally, we plan on updating the VR and Sample teams soon, so keep an eye out for this.

If you have a team you'd like to submit for consideration to be a sample, please let me know!

 

[Smudge]

In response to the overwhelming indication that Urshifu-Rapid-Strike was problematic via our latest survey, where it scored 3.83 generally and 4.3 among qualified voters, the council held a vote on how to move forward with the issue.

Here were the votes:

	big pichu	Smudge	eragon11145	Nido-Rus	Spurrific	YoBuddy	zee
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	Abstained	Ban	Suspect

written by eragon11145, YoBuddy and myself

This is most likely not a surprise to many, as Urshifu has been extremely popular and dominant in the current swiss tour as well as on the ladder. While Urshifu was certainly popular since the start of the format, particularly after the Single Strike variant got banned, Coaching being removed from the tier gave Urshifu even more opportunities to be used. Unseen Fist especially allows Urshifu to force progress and take knockouts that no other mon is able to, restricting defensive counterplay and making the flow of the game much more linear.

Beyond Urshifu-Rapid's fundamental capabilities as a Pokemon that already push it to the top of formats, with its signature ability and move, it also had partners which enhance its maximum potential. Partners such as Tornadus boosting its damage and speed with Rain Dance and Tailwind respectively, Mega Metagross forming an overwheming offensive duo, or Jirachi redirecting Rillaboom's Grassy Glide that would otherwise check it, Urshifu-Rapid found space to leave a significant impact in almost all the games it was brought.

Additionally, Urshifu had diversity in item selection that enabled it to either get the jump on Pokemon that would either be faster than it with a Choice Scarf and Tailwind, or use damage-boosting items like Mystic Water or Choice Band with Water-type Terastalization to break through would-be defensive checks such as Amoonguss. Another consideration was the addition of Swords Dance to its movepool when it returned to Generation 9, turning it into a frightening setup sweeper.

Ultimately, Urshifu-Rapid simply pushed offense too far and disrupted the balance of the tier, as evidenced by its extremely high score on the survey (the highest ever, surpassing Darkrai/Dark Void voting percentage wise) forcing the council to act on it.

 

[Test Bots]

VR Nominations:

View attachment 585717 --> Tier 3
Unlike the other mons in Tier 2, this mon clearly needs some kind of speed advantage. I don't think bulk alone is going to cut it.

View attachment 585718 --> Tier 1
Even without Coaching, assistance of Clear Amulet and Tera makes it the best setup mon of the tier. There is less than a handful of mons that actually resist Thousand Arrows (Rilla and Waterpon just to name a few). Extreme Speeds does nice chip damage and makes Zyg one of the fastest mon in the meta.

View attachment 585719--> Tier 2
This mon tend to go up and down the tiers a lot. Despite the presence of Fini, it still is a reliable redirector and healer. It can completely wreck a team that doesn't prepare for it.

View attachment 585720--> Tier 2
Imo, the mon doesn't stay long in the battle. It is almost like a suicide lead (it probably is). However, the impact it makes in the long run is well worth it. Its hazards chip off so much of the opposing mon's bulk that KO'ing them is that much easier.

View attachment 585721--> Tier 4
It probably has a niche as a tailwind setter with some good defensive properties. However, it is not the premier choice amongst mons with Grass or Fighting type moves. Not being able to outspeed 350 Spe hurts it a lot.

View attachment 585722--> Tier 2
Another good redirector with a more offensive presence.

View attachment 585723--> Tier 4
No more Coaching.

View attachment 585724--> Tier 4
For the past rounds, no one has been really using this. As a rocks setter, it is outclassed by Glimmora. As a mon with ground coverage, it is outclassed by Zyg. I think Tera Blast (Flying) is situationally good, but also a waste of tera. Intimidate is still good.

View attachment 585725 --> Tier 3
I don't know how this mon dropped to Tier 4 in the first place, but it is the best support mon killer; it can do a considerable damage to mons like Rachi, Rilla, Incineroar, Iron Hands (via Groundium Z) and Guss. Of course, its defensive properties is also a plus.

View attachment 585726--> UR
No one is using this.

View attachment 585727--> Tier 4
It has a really good offensive presence and is probably the only viable Rock Slide user. Extreme Speed is also good for cleaning up weakened mons. However, it needs speed advantage to make most of its sets.

View attachment 585730-->3
Another good redirector with an awesome ability + signature move, but not as slappable to a team. Could be 4.

View attachment 585729--> Tier 3
I think the best set for this mon is Weakness Policy; it has the bulk to reliably use it. Priority STAB checks a lot of mons and its other STAB can do considerable damage. It may need some terrain control though (Ice Spinner or other Terrains).

Making a small update. Mega Metagross is Tier 1 mon. The damage output of Heavy Slam is absurd. With Bullet Punch, it can KO Flutter Mane. Stomping Stomping Tantrum will do significant damage on anything that resists its STABs. It can also add Ice Punch or other moves as it sees fit. Other things to note is that it usually does not require investment on bulk; it is pure power and speed.

 

[Test Bots]

Ultimately, Urshifu-Rapid simply pushed offense too far and disrupted the balance of the tier, as evidenced by its extremely high score on the survey (the highest ever, surpassing Darkrai/Dark Void voting percentage wise) forcing the council to act on it.

I'm not going argue if Urshifu deserved to banned; what is done is done. Rather, I'm going to make a prediction of the meta going forward. I believe that ban of urshifu will not change anything. There are mons like Flutter Mane and Mega Metagross that will keep the metagame very offensive-based. I have not seen Psy Spam or Pao + Priority make as a huge impact on the metagame like they have in SV DOU, but under the right teams, I'm sure they'll contribute to the offensive nature of the current meta as well. What I'm trying to say is that Urshifu is not the sole reason why the metagame is offensive-based; there are a lot of mons that are contributing to this.

Now, I don't think the playerbase would be pleased to know that Basculegion will be on the rise. Whereas you were able to send out of a handful of mons against Urshifu, you can't necessarily do that with Basculegion. Basculegion is a OHKO'ing machine that can OHKO even Dark-types in the late game. Having said this, I believe that Mega Kangaskhan or even Porygon2 can see a rise in usage. (Crossing my fingers on Tera Fighting Basculegion.) Two good thing about going against Basculegion is that it will always have Scarf if it is not on a Rain team and is not so useful in the early game. However, predicting its sets can be tricky if Tornadus is in the team.

 

[sir jelloton]

I'm not going argue if Urshifu deserved to banned; what is done is done. Rather, I'm going to make a prediction of the meta going forward. I believe that ban of urshifu will not change anything. There are mons like Flutter Mane and Mega Metagross that will keep the metagame very offensive-based. I have not seen Psy Spam or Pao + Priority make as a huge impact on the metagame like they have in SV DOU, but under the right teams, I'm sure they'll contribute to the offensive nature of the current meta as well. What I'm trying to say is that Urshifu is not the sole reason why the metagame is offensive-based; there are a lot of mons that are contributing to this.

Now, I don't think the playerbase would be pleased to know that Basculegion will be on the rise. Whereas you were able to send out of a handful of mons against Urshifu, you can't necessarily do that with Basculegion. Basculegion is a OHKO'ing machine that can OHKO even Dark-types in the late game. Having said this, I believe that Mega Kangaskhan or even Porygon2 can see a rise in usage. (Crossing my fingers on Tera Fighting Basculegion.) Two good thing about going against Basculegion is that it will always have Scarf if it is not on a Rain team and is not so useful in the early game. However, predicting its sets can be tricky if Tornadus is in the team.

You're correct in that offense will still be extremely strong even with shifu gone, but it was very clearly the strongest style post coaching ban to the point that using others were not worth it. I think shifu gone will help balance it out a little bit, though the strength of Mmeta's heavy slam might still be too much for non offensive structures to handle.

 

[Dragapultuser55]

psychic terrain seems to be ridiculous in nddou
I use it as my main team for this tier, and i often win quite quickly

 

[xqiht]

when ban marshadow，zygarde and deo a？？？

 

[Test Bots]

when ban marshadow，zygarde and deo a？？？

You leave my Marshadow and Zygarde alone! Its too soon to judge Deoxys-A though.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

There is no "too early". This thing is toxic for the tier and the simple fact that its partner is indeedee pushes it over the edge. Psyterrain leads to anti priority leads to forces tailwind/rilla playing. These are not bad, But in the same way Necrozma DM could do Well into zacian-c and it nonetheless got banned. Anyways, tailwind sometimes is not enough, as you need to kill the deo a. Indeedee's redirection and imprison + trick room makes it difficult to play around for trick room, psyterrain + helping hand makes it difficult for more defensive teams, and deo runs Sash Most of the time So you dont Even kill it by landing a hit on it. Dark types arent a real answer as focus blast and superpower exist, Rilla Or Fini arent real counters as it can have multiple psyterrain setters, and telekinesis + prio (sth I wanted to try) is not anything enough. Deo-A's Rising is totally toxic now that it got expanding force.

 

[bagel]

Between the last couple rounds of the Friendly Tour and the ongoing Ladder Tour I think I've had a decent enough sample size of competitive games to make give a way-too-early read on the meta after the Urshifu ban. First things first I think the Urshifu ban was very justified and good for the tier. I'm enjoying the tier more post-ban as there is now much more defensive counterplay that is viable, but the tier still has plenty of threats that keep games from becoming a slug-fest.

There has been some discussion on some Pokemon that people might be too threatening so I thought I'd give my two cents on them.

This thing does kinda get a Z-Move for its main STAB vs the majority of the metagame buuuut I don't really know if its broken or unhealthy. It has real 4mss which keeps it from covering as much in practice, as it needs to choose between coverage options such as Ice Punch, priority with Bullet Punch, and more. After Mega-Evolving its just as weak to intimidate as any other physical attacker and staying unmega'd is a serious risk. That being said its bulk is immense and very little can effectively threaten an OHKO on it. Overall right now I view Mega Metagross as a useful anti-offense Pokemon that keeps a lot of glass cannons from freely running the tier.

I've seen Marshadow run Z Move, Sash, and Life Orb which can make it really difficult to deal with as all 3 sets can require slightly different approaches. Not much out-speeds and threatens an OHKO that isn't also scared of Shadow Sneak, so often opponents are forced to trade a Mon into Marshadow. This also means that Marsh is really great at forcing Tera from Pokemon like Flutter Mane and Kingambit. Marshadow is definitely one of the most annoying Pokemon in the tier for me given its combination of Speed, Power, and Coverage but I don't find it too overbearing. I don't know if I've really seen it run away with a game because it doesn't have the bulk or setup capabilities, and it raw breaking power is limited unless significant investment is put in (tera/z-crystal).

I will arrogantly claim to be a premier Deo-A user between my success building/playing with it across this tier and current gen DOU. In Natdex I don't think Deo-A is broken enough banworthy. The tier just has lots of bulk with top mons like Mega Metagross matching up very well into it. Tapu Fini and Rillaboom are top tier mons that contest terrain and often force Deo-A's partner slot to be constant switching for it to be effective. Flutter Mane can outspeed and disrupt with Booster Energy, etc. For me personally it's not even a 100% given on all psyterrain teams that I build. I do understand that it can promote high-leverage prediction heavy gameplay and think it makes sense to keep an eye on.

I don't think any of these setup threats are particularly scary with coaching gone now.

Here I'll highlight some Pokemon that I think have gotten stronger since the Urshifu ban:

I'm specifically a fan of Iron Defense Zamazenta, its blistering speed and STAB Body Press make it a really great answer to Mega Metagross + Chien Pao teams which are really common right now. The meta is really physical for the most part so Zama can wall a lot of common attackers. It also outspeeds Flutter Mane and threatens a 120 BP Heavy Slam. The main thing to worry about is making sure it has partners that can help deal with Marshadow. You can see me use this in the Friendly finals vs McBruh and in the semis vs Shoe.

Incineroar is now clearly the premier Intimidate user in my eyes. As mentioned earlier the metagame is very physically oriented from what I can tell so Incineroar thrives at slowing down the pace against common teams. It's a nice buffer vs most physical attackers in the tier and just does Incineroar things being a goat support.

Waterpon is now the best all-around physical water type imo. Dracovish is strong in its niche as a nuke on some HO structures and Basculegion is probably a little underexplored (I'm not super interested in it but Last Respects is big numbers) but Waterpon hits the sweet spot of bulk, speed, power, and utility that makes it a Pokemon that can always provide value. It now no longer overlaps with Urshifu and will be one of my go-tos for water types whenever I'm starting out building a team.

Overall I think it is wayyyy to early to judge the metagame as it takes time even in much more devopled tiers for players to figure out what the fuck is going on. I think the ladder tour should help make things more competitve and speed up development which is nice, but I can't wait to be proven wrong about this.

 

[MAB123]

when and what will be the next likely suspect test
im just curious

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

It will Most likely Be zygarde imo but Im not playing the tier anymore since urshifu-R ban that inserted wonderful Chaos in the tier

 

[Smudge]

when and what will be the next likely suspect test
im just curious

It will Most likely Be zygarde imo but Im not playing the tier anymore since urshifu-R ban that inserted wonderful Chaos in the tier

We’re planning on running a new survey soon, which will tell us the direction in which to take the tier, or if people are happy with it.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

I dont quite believe in surveys' transparency. Last time I tried to vote in one it said I needed a google account. I think it's sufficient to say that at the very least 20% of the playerbase is being totally Skipped.

 

[Smudge]

I dont quite believe in surveys' transparency. Last time I tried to vote in one it said I needed a google account. I think it's sufficient to say that at the very least 20% of the playerbase is being totally Skipped.

This is simply not true. A Google account has never been required in any survey we have run. I intentionally have set it up this way, due to the restrictions some of our playerbase has in this regard, and privacy concerns re: collecting email addresses, which is personal information. Either way, whether it's on the upcoming survey or the next one, we will try to switch to the Smogon forum survey system to be more accessible, which also has the benefit of supporting translations.

If you have ideas on how to get info out to communities that are potentially underrepresented in surveys, suspect tests, or anything else, please send me a forum PM with your ideas! I'm always looking for ways to grow the community and reach more people.

-

In other news, the viability rankings have been updated. Thanks to our new council members, and bage1 for guest voting on this one. Apologies for how long this took, there's really no excuse. We'll try to do them more often in the future.

Votes

 

[MAB123]

arch is kinda chaos
and as a psyspam player i fomd trick room a bit annoyimg

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

arch is kinda chaos
and as a psyspam player i fomd trick room a bit annoyimg

glastrier in the VR (✧∇✧)
trick room is far from dead, unfort for you. Just a question cause ladder is Too risky:
is tapu fini spammed on ladder? only real threat to my TR team, slowbro mega doesnt count

 

[MAB123]

only kinda, on a few teams