Metagame National Dex AG Metagame Discussion

[Geysers]

The purpose of my post was not to give him a viable team, it was to show him some examples of what the sets should look like. I wasn't trying to rate his team, because to do so would have been very, very cruel. There isn't really a nice way to tell someone that their team is garbage and every part of it is bad, which is the conclusion that I inevitably would've come to. His team would get swept by basically every competent player and team. If I had tried to fix his team, I would've just changed it all. Of course Marsash is bad on that team, literally everything would be. That's why I told him to go and get a sample team.

You are absolutely right, newer players probably shouldn't come to me for advice, especially considering the rest of this post lmao. But I've seen no one else offer so I'd rather new players ask me something then not at all. As for the part about it not being hidden, I think I didn't express that right. The vast majority of players will never come to the forums, or ask around on chat, they'll just play on Showdown and not even know about all the resources we have. To get to the sample teams, you have to 1. Know that the forums exist 2. Know how to get there and 3. know how to get to the proper thread. There's just a high bar of entry is all I'm trying to say.

In my opinion, calling my sets sub-optimal is a tiny bit unfair. They are definitely not the standard or meta sets. but they are absolutely effective. I'm not someone who likes using the standard set for all my pokemon, it's just not who I am as a person. I experiment with a bunch of sets, and settle on the ones that work the most. But, I do agree that some of my sets were sub-optimal. I still stand by my Yveltal and especially my Pdon set but most of my others don't really hold up.





Now, time to do my favorite thing and make this about me. I'm not someone who only plays one tier. I go around and play every tier. Nat Dex Ag was one of the hardest to get into because there really wasn't that much information on the forums. There were sample teams and the viability rankings and the metagame discussion, and I guess the simple questions thread and that was about it. I realize now that I could've joined chat but I didn't know that at the time. The only reason I even came here was because I played Ubers a bunch and wanted to try out Nat Dex. If I didn't enjoy playing this tier so much then I wouldn't have even bothered. IMO, there needs to be a newcomer guide, because I know that would've helped so much. I still, to this day, don't know the EVs for some popular sets. Partly because I don't use them, and partly because I never knew how to get the EVs. Again, I now know that I could ask chat but I didn't know that at the time.

I'll give an example. If I recall correctly, my first post on this forum was a nom for Zacian to move up. In hindsight I can say that it was a really bad nomination, caused by inexperience, but no one explained that to me. People said "Your nom is shit" and never really explained why. As a new player it was really disheartening. I know a lot more now but I still have so much more to learn and I'm sure that I'm going to regret some of my posts now in the future when I look back. I used to play 1v1 in gen 7 and the community was definitely a lot different. People would explain to you why your post was bad, even if it was in a rude way. It made you feel like shit but you got better and learned more just by interacting with the forums. It feels like I go on the forums because it's what I normally do when I play a tier, and not for any competitive reason.
Honestly, that feeling is probably why this is going to be one of my last posts in Nat Dex. I'll probably move on to some other meta game. So guys, it's been... interesting. And I hope as many of you were scarred by my profile picture as possible. I just wanted to get my thoughts out about the forums before I go. I know all none of you will miss me, so please, try and hold your tears until after I'm gone. I'm comfortable in the fact that I made no difference and no one would notice that I'm gone if I didn't make this post. Take care.

Are you brimming with joy distilled from detachment yet?
On a more serious note, I think the sentiment of making a bad team just to show someone good sets makes no sense. You need a good team to demonstrate what mons work well with each other. Mashing a ton of good sets together uselessly teaches nothing about the meta. In order to give someone an actual idea of how to play the tier, you need to combine good sets with good synergies. For instance, a better way to rework that team while keeping true to the boost passing theme would have been to convert it to smashpass. I also think that it’s a bit rude to criticize people for calling bad sets bad. Bad sets can be usable if they have the correct team support, but generally speaking, they’re often strictly outclassed by other sets.

On a final, mostly unrelated note, WolfishOne, baton passing to choiced mons is generally a bad idea. A recommendation I have just to make your team a little better would be replacing eevee with a smeargle running the moves spore, shell smash, baton pass, and spectral thief, holding a focus sash.

 

[WolfishOne]

Ok so Evopass yep Removed

What about this team is it better?


Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Thunder


Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Fire Punch
- Swords Dance (Didn't know he gets that)
- Rock Polish


Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Fire Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Rock Polish

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Atk / 56 Def / 100 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Glare

Darkrai @ Wide Lens
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam


Now here is where I'm undecided

This
Necrozma DM @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Prism Armour
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 HP
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Sunsteel Strike
- Photon Geyser
- Earthquake

Or this

Necrozma DM @ Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Prism Armour
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Sunsteel Strike
- Photon Geyser
- Earthquake

 

[Geysers]

Ok so Evopass yep Removed

What about this team is it better?


Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Thunder


Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Fire Punch
- Swords Dance (Didn't know he gets that)
- Rock Polish


Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Fire Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Rock Polish

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Atk / 56 Def / 100 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Glare

Darkrai @ Wide Lens
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam


Now here is where I'm undecided

This
Necrozma DM @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Prism Armour
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 HP
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Sunsteel Strike
- Photon Geyser
- Earthquake

Or this

Necrozma DM @ Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Prism Armour
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Sunsteel Strike
- Photon Geyser
- Earthquake

A tiny note: please put large teams like this into hide tags, which are done with the formatting [ hide = team ] [TEAM] [/hide] with the spaces removed. It just helps reduce overall thread clutter. Thanks!

 

[WrathoftheLeopard]

Ok so Evopass yep Removed

What about this team is it better?


Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Thunder


Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Fire Punch
- Swords Dance (Didn't know he gets that)
- Rock Polish


Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Fire Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Rock Polish

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Atk / 56 Def / 100 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Glare

Darkrai @ Wide Lens
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam


Now here is where I'm undecided

This
Necrozma DM @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Prism Armour
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 HP
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Sunsteel Strike
- Photon Geyser
- Earthquake

Or this

Necrozma DM @ Ultranecrozium Z
Ability: Prism Armour
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Sunsteel Strike
- Photon Geyser
- Earthquake

This still isn’t the best place for team advice though, using the National Dex AG discord or Pokemon Showdown chats would be more appropriate.

I guess as I’m here I’ll just give some advice on the sets to avoid this being a one-liner. (Just for the record I’m only fixing up the sets, not the team).

Recommended Set Changes

Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Fire]

A Modest Nature is preferred on Xerneas to maximise damage output. At +2 Speed it’s going to outspeed the entire unboosted meta anyway.
Hidden Power Fire allows Xerneas to OHKO Zacian Crowned and Ferrothorn at +2 while dynamaxed, and also deals significant damage to Necrozma Dusk Mane.


Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 136 HP / 168 Atk / 52 SpD / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Rock Tomb
- Swords Dance
- Stealth Rock

Double Dance Primal Groudon isn’t the best idea in the current metagame due to the frequency of Ditto. For this reason, I recommend the standard bulky Stealth Rock and Swords Dance set. As a result, Rock Polish has been replaced with Stealth Rock. Rock Tomb allows Groudon to hit Ho-Oh without the shaky accuracy of Stone Edge.


Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Stone Edge
- Substitute
- Rock Polish

On the second Primal Groudon, I have swapped it to a Substitute and Rock Polish Set to beat the aforementioned Ditto. Notably Stone Edge is used over Rock Tomb on this specific set due to the lack of Swords Dance, maximizing damage output is therefore important here.


Rayquaza-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed

Normally I would consider V-create over Earthquake on Dragom Dance Rayquaza, but Skarmory is practically non-existent, and you can pressure physically defensive Dusk Mane enough already with the two Primal Groudons.
Extreme Speed makes Mega Rayquaza less prone to being revenge killed, while allowing it to revenge kill weaker opponents itself. The locking in effect of Outrage on Dragon Dance Sets is undesirable, allowing Xerneas or Dusk Mane to easily take the hit and KO back.


Zygarde-Complete @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 16 HP / 224 Atk / 36 Def / 232 Spe
Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Dragon Tail

This should be the set that you run on Dragon Dance Zygarde. Substitute turns Ferrothorn and Dusk Mane into setup bait. Dragon Tail can prevent Ho-Oh from whirlwinding in return, and hits the Ground resists neutrally.


Ok I know I said I was the going to change the actual team but this mon sucks. Just use Yveltal which I wouldn’t even recommend here as you already have a dynamax abuser in Xerneas.


Your offensive team will appreciate the Z-move. Use Stone Edge over Sunsteel Strike though. Photon Geyser or Light that Burns the Sky already hits Xerneas enough, plus you have two Fairy resists anyway.

 

[TexanSansei]

Just wanted to say that full ditto and pyumuku teams are surprisingly good unless the opponent has disable or taunt, but they're decent otherwise.
Some Stallish stuff with Pyumuku
Some more stallish stuff with Pyumuku
Guy forfeits to ditto
(Some Notes- I was at 1200 upon finishing these, not the best, not even good, but not bad either)
(Pretty gimmicky but it was a good gimmick)
(Ditto is horrible against stat boosters unless it switches in letting it gain the stat boost, but it's not a safe switch in so it doesn't work sometimes.)
(Ditto also apparently doesn't lose impostor so opponents with abilities like disguise can take advantage of that)
(Pyumuku has great resistance to everything besides STAB grass and electrics.)
(A surprising amount of people on the lower end of the ladder don't know that Pyumuku gets unaware based on the videos)

 

[Chloe]

Just wanted to say that full ditto and pyumuku teams are surprisingly good unless the opponent has disable or taunt, but they're decent otherwise.
Some Stallish stuff with Pyumuku
Some more stallish stuff with Pyumuku
Guy forfeits to ditto
(Some Notes- I was at 1200 upon finishing these, not the best, not even good, but not bad either)
(Pretty gimmicky but it was a good gimmick)
(Ditto is horrible against stat boosters unless it switches in letting it gain the stat boost, but it's not a safe switch in so it doesn't work sometimes.)
(Ditto also apparently doesn't lose impostor so opponents with abilities like disguise can take advantage of that)
(Pyumuku has great resistance to everything besides STAB grass and electrics.)
(A surprising amount of people on the lower end of the ladder don't know that Pyumuku gets unaware based on the videos)

Hey I appreciate your motivation here but 1200 Elo is achievable by using literally anything and doesn't really give a fair indication of how good a strategy is. That being said, six Ditto is a really horrid archetype. The reasons for this are that Ditto is easily outplayable given the opposing team is built well. When you're relying on it solely your opponent can control exactly what you copy at all times. Additionally, there are common Pokemon that are essentially imposter-proof such as Special Arceus-Ghost, DD Zygarde-C, etc.

Pyukumuku has similar issues, for one it's bulk, while considerably good, isn't enough to wall plenty of threats within AG. It's also gets 6-0'd by any team using Taunt, any team with a potent special attacker, Substitute, competency and a bunch of other things.

If you're going to rely on spamming one single Pokemon, and attempt to do well, my suggestion would be Smeargle. While Smeargle is somewhat worse in Natdex AG than it is in previous iterations of the metagame, it still provides a much more reliable and unpredictable gameplan than the two builds you've listed here. Here are common/prominent sets used.

Thank you for your interest in the metagame and I wish you luck in your future endeavours.

 

[12-XVI]

If you're going to rely on spamming one single Pokemon, and attempt to do well, my suggestion would be Smeargle. While Smeargle is somewhat worse in Natdex AG than it is in previous iterations of the metagame, it still provides a much more reliable and unpredictable gameplan than the two builds you've listed here. Here are common/prominent sets used.

How about Arceus? He's pretty good for mono Pokemon teams.

 

[Kate]

Heyo! Back with another vid with the mate Bread Sandwich! This time we talk about the state of current ag and the future. Hope you guys enjoy! Please like the vid if you are interested in more content, it really helps me to gauge community support. Additionally, my DMs on Smogon are open if you have ideas for more AG vids or want to be featured in one!

 

[Amberr]

Dynamax, Mega, and Z-Crystals Ruin the game. Change my mind

 

[TexanSansei]

After some sulking after pyumuku and ditto couldn't get to 1300 I decided to make a new gimmick team.
Full power herb xerneas team. 1300 and climbing maybe peak at 1450 don't know.
I'l go over it right now
Xern is a great pokemon that is honestly broken. Works like a charm(funny joke cause it's a fairy type you know)
Now you may be thinking what about the list of counters-
Marshadow
Anything else in the meta.

I noticed that Xerneas is a great revenge killler and when g-maxed it's even better. With fairy aura and stuff it can STAB Kill a good deal of the meta.
Battles
Battle 1
Battle 2(Note just put battle 2 was battle 2 even though it was me climbing back up so battle 1 is actually the last battle)
A lot of people forfeit after the first two get killed
If you get spectral thiefed you just revenge kill their pokemon.
Note- because I honestly don't have a great imagination I really only make gimmick teams unless it's like a monthly metagame so yeah.

Team:

Xerneas @ Power Herb Ability: Fairy Aura EVs: 252 SpA / 8 SpD / 248 Spe Modest Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Geomancy - Moonblast - Thunder - Focus Blast

Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 252 SpA / 8 SpD / 248 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Focus Blast

Probably copied this set off of the smogon dex or somethin but maybe not. All I can say is that it's way better than the ditto and pyumuku teams I previously made. Ditto is the only thing that reliably beats it apparently.

Edit: so many poisons and steels above 1300 but I persevered.
Counter Team almost beats me though
Got bodied by another gimmick with 3 Zacians and 3 Rayquaza's
Peaked at 1360, too many Zacians

 

[HanSoloIndie]

Dynamax, Mega, and Z-Crystals Ruin the game. Change my mind

Well, actually in the case of Megas/Primal Reversion/Ultra Burst, they increased the depth of the game. Previously, mons that were overshadowed were given new life, restricted their item slot, and as a bonus, the non-Mega version of the user could remain as a separately tiered mon if necessary. Now, I am aware there are mons like Primal Groudon, Mega Rayquaza, and so forth, but the majority of Mega evolutions were not sent to Ubers or even centralized an entire meta. As a matter of fact (excluding Primals/Ultra Necrozma) only 8 megas actually went to Uber (or AG for Rayquaza) throughout USUM. The other 38 species are lower, and benefited.

Z moves are more controversial, but I think in the long run, they were okay. Sure, you could nuke a normal check or counter, but it led to some interesting strategies throughout SM-USUM.

Now Dynamax, I can understand your comment. Apparently Gamefreak learned nothing from Mega Rayquaza, and had the nerve to let Pokemon gain stat boosts and bulk without an item restriction, and creates a snowball effect. It immense dislike inside and outside of competitive is not helped by it being perceived as a scrappy replacement to z moves and Megas. But honestly, I don't think it "ruins" the entire game, rather it being an overcentralizing mechanic that changes the rules of the game too much, was probably not Quality-Assured tested, and shifted the entire meta to a more offensive-balanced approach on the team building spectrum.

 

[Amberr]

Yeah to be fair Megas werent that bad but like, Z crystals and dynamax, no thanks

 

[12-XVI]

What problem do you have with Mega's? Personally I think it's a waste to throw that mechanic away. They should have kept it around like they did with abilities and items. Mega Pokemon can easily be balanced or put in seperate tiers. Mega Evolution adds the option to change your team midbattle and Mega's like Mega Slowbro where the Pokemon changes his role upon Mega Evolving make especially good use of that. I think that they should make more Mega's like that.

I like Z-Moves a lot less because they put a lot of reward on one single play. Every player makes mistakes randomly, and thus a victory should be based on multiple plays to balance that out. Z-Moves work against this. But I still like Z-Moves somewhat, especially the stat boosting ones (most notably Z-Conversion) because fishing for a good chance to set-up is fun.

As for Dynamax, it's too OP and that's why I do not like it. It also looks stupid, especially on cartridge where the Pokemon gets behind the trainer for some stupid reason. The best thing about it is that it makes Wailord his proper size again.

 

[J1mm1P]

After some sulking after pyumuku and ditto couldn't get to 1300 I decided to make a new gimmick team.
Full power herb xerneas team. 1300 and climbing maybe peak at 1450 don't know.
I'l go over it right now
Xern is a great pokemon that is honestly broken. Works like a charm(funny joke cause it's a fairy type you know)
Now you may be thinking what about the list of counters-
Marshadow
Anything else in the meta.

I noticed that Xerneas is a great revenge killler and when g-maxed it's even better. With fairy aura and stuff it can STAB Kill a good deal of the meta.
Battles
Battle 1
Battle 2(Note just put battle 2 was battle 2 even though it was me climbing back up so battle 1 is actually the last battle)
A lot of people forfeit after the first two get killed
If you get spectral thiefed you just revenge kill their pokemon.
Note- because I honestly don't have a great imagination I really only make gimmick teams unless it's like a monthly metagame so yeah.

Team:

Xerneas @ Power Herb Ability: Fairy Aura EVs: 252 SpA / 8 SpD / 248 Spe Modest Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Geomancy - Moonblast - Thunder - Focus Blast

Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 252 SpA / 8 SpD / 248 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Focus Blast

Probably copied this set off of the smogon dex or somethin but maybe not. All I can say is that it's way better than the ditto and pyumuku teams I previously made. Ditto is the only thing that reliably beats it apparently.

Edit: so many poisons and steels above 1300 but I persevered.
Counter Team almost beats me though
Got bodied by another gimmick with 3 Zacians and 3 Rayquaza's
Peaked at 1360, too many Zacians

Just don't run gimmicks unless you really like playing 1000 Elo and get stuck because BP teams are too powerful or something lol. This particular gimmick however is really bad because of the popularity of Necrozma-DM and Zacian-C. Every viable team has at least one check to Xerneas. That Geoxern set is also pretty bad. Here's an improvement:

Better Xern

Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 108 HP / 252 SpA / 148 Spe This spread outspeeds Scarfed MRay at +2 while still having solid bulk.
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Fire] There is no reason to run Focus Blast over this, HP Fire hits Necrozma-DM, Zacian-C, and Ferrothorn while not having trash accuracy. It also turns into Max Flare when Dynamaxed. You can also run Psyshock instead of Thunder if you really really hate Chansey and Amoonguss, but Thunder hits more important targets like Ho-Oh.

What problem do you have with Mega's? Personally I think it's a waste to throw that mechanic away. They should have kept it around like they did with abilities and items. Mega Pokemon can easily be balanced or put in seperate tiers. Mega Evolution adds the option to change your team midbattle and Mega's like Mega Slowbro where the Pokemon changes his role upon Mega Evolving make especially good use of that. I think that they should make more Mega's like that.

Couldn't agree more. The reason we even have AG as a format is because of MRay .

I like Z-Moves a lot less because they put a lot of reward on one single play. Every player makes mistakes randomly, and thus a victory should be based on multiple plays to balance that out. Z-Moves work against this. But I still like Z-Moves somewhat, especially the stat boosting ones (most notably Z-Conversion) because fishing for a good chance to set-up is fun.

Also agree.

As for Dynamax, it's too OP and that's why I do not like it. It also looks stupid, especially on cartridge where the Pokemon gets behind the trainer for some stupid reason. The best thing about it is that it makes Wailord his proper size again.

No, a mechanic being OP is not really a reason to completely remove it from the game, especially when it comes to AG. I strongly agree with your last statement though.

 

[12-XVI]

No, a mechanic being OP is not really a reason to completely remove it from the game, especially when it comes to AG.

Thinking about it I agree. Being able to use Mega Rayquaza despite him being OP was the primary reason for which AG was created, so clearly something being OP is not a good reason to exclude it from AG. I talked about AG as if it's meant to be balanced like all other tiers while in reality AG's niche over other tiers is the OP jank that it allows.

 

[TexanSansei]

Thx

Just don't run gimmicks unless you really like playing 1000 Elo and get stuck because BP teams are too powerful or something lol. This particular gimmick however is really bad because of the popularity of Necrozma-DM and Zacian-C. Every viable team has at least one check to Xerneas. That Geoxern set is also pretty bad. Here's an improvement:

Better Xern

Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 108 HP / 252 SpA / 148 Spe This spread outspeeds Scarfed MRay at +2 while still having solid bulk.
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Fire] There is no reason to run Focus Blast over this, HP Fire hits Necrozma-DM, Zacian-C, and Ferrothorn while not having trash accuracy. It also turns into Max Flare when Dynamaxed. You can also run Psyshock instead of Thunder if you really really hate Chansey and Amoonguss, but Thunder hits more important targets like Ho-Oh.

Couldn't agree more. The reason we even have AG as a format is because of MRay .

Also agree.

No, a mechanic being OP is not really a reason to completely remove it from the game, especially when it comes to AG. I strongly agree with your last statement though.

Really find this good advice, I was thinking about fire cause of all the steel types but couldn't commit because of the lower end power on hidden power and was using various fire types instead in the place of one of the xerns. Although I haven't really seen any Raquaza's since below 1100. Really dumb but now i'm thinking of full darkrai.

 

[Geysers]

Thinking about it I agree. Being able to use Mega Rayquaza despite him being OP was the primary reason for which AG was created, so clearly something being OP is not a good reason to exclude it from AG. I talked about AG as if it's meant to be balanced like all other tiers while in reality AG's niche over other tiers is the OP jank that it allows.

I'd argue that the term “OP” is thrown around haphazardly by inexperienced players who want an excuse for something sweeping them. Look back at Gen 7. Was Mega Ray destroying every single team? No! Why? Because players had adapting their building and playing styles around it. The very nature of the metagame was such that it restricted Mega Ray’s viability, because everyone had to build checks to it into every single team. The omnipresence of Pokemon like defensive Support Arcs and defensive Zygarde was a product of the dominance of Mega Ray, and a product that was restrictive of Mega Ray’s viability. In a meta where building around a threat is mandatory, the threat ceases to become “OP”, and becomes something that is managed with little to moderate difficulty by most of the meta teams. Similarly, natdex AG teams have to be built around the presence of dynamax, and powerful dynamax breakers and sweepers such as Yveltal and Xerneas. Those sweepers, however, have checks, and those checks see high usage in the metagame, thereby restricting the usability of those Pokemon.
In any other tier, such as OU, people would clamor for a ban of a pokemon that was as restrictive on teambuilding as Xerneas or Yveltal is in today’s AG meta. In AG, however, players have to build around those threats, and do so in a way that prevents the threats from winning every battle. The very fact that balance, stall, and semistall are viable playstyles is a testament to the fact that those pokemon and mechanics are checkable.
When people say that something is OP, they are effectively saying that it is too powerful. The mere checkability of stuff like Mega Ray demonstrates the fact that it is not, in fact, too powerful. Similarly, the fact that it’s possible to use defensive mons to beat certain dynamaxed sweepers without even needing a defensive dynamax shows that dynamax is not, in and of itself, a broken mechanic.
Lastly, when it is argued that the reason that Mega Ray was banished to AG is because it‘s “broken” or “overpowered”, what they really mean is that it was too dominant a force in the builder. When something is a dominant force in the builder, that doesn’t mean it’s unbeatable, merely that it restricts teambuilding by requiring certain checks. Brokenness implies that there’s no counterplay to a pokemon or mechanic, which applies to nothing in the current meta. The fact that reliable counterplay is possible to a given pokemon or mechanic means that it cannot be broken. Thank you for reading this rant about people overusing the term “OP”!

TL;DR: People throw the word “OP” around without any sense of what it actually means or what effect something truly being “OP” would have on the meta.

 

[Kate]

I'd argue that the term “OP” is thrown around haphazardly by inexperienced players who want an excuse for something sweeping them. Look back at Gen 7. Was Mega Ray destroying every single team? No! Why? Because players had adapting their building and playing styles around it. The very nature of the metagame was such that it restricted Mega Ray’s viability, because everyone had to build checks to it into every single team. The omnipresence of Pokemon like defensive Support Arcs and defensive Zygarde was a product of the dominance of Mega Ray, and a product that was restrictive of Mega Ray’s viability. In a meta where building around a threat is mandatory, the threat ceases to become “OP”, and becomes something that is managed with little to moderate difficulty by most of the meta teams. Similarly, natdex AG teams have to be built around the presence of dynamax, and powerful dynamax breakers and sweepers such as Yveltal and Xerneas. Those sweepers, however, have checks, and those checks see high usage in the metagame, thereby restricting the usability of those Pokemon.
In any other tier, such as OU, people would clamor for a ban of a pokemon that was as restrictive on teambuilding as Xerneas or Yveltal is in today’s AG meta. In AG, however, players have to build around those threats, and do so in a way that prevents the threats from winning every battle. The very fact that balance, stall, and semistall are viable playstyles is a testament to the fact that those pokemon and mechanics are checkable.
When people say that something is OP, they are effectively saying that it is too powerful. The mere checkability of stuff like Mega Ray demonstrates the fact that it is not, in fact, too powerful. Similarly, the fact that it’s possible to use defensive mons to beat certain dynamaxed sweepers without even needing a defensive dynamax shows that dynamax is not, in and of itself, a broken mechanic.
Lastly, when it is argued that the reason that Mega Ray was banished to AG is because it‘s “broken” or “overpowered”, what they really mean is that it was too dominant a force in the builder. When something is a dominant force in the builder, that doesn’t mean it’s unbeatable, merely that it restricts teambuilding by requiring certain checks. Brokenness implies that there’s no counterplay to a pokemon or mechanic, which applies to nothing in the current meta. The fact that reliable counterplay is possible to a given pokemon or mechanic means that it cannot be broken. Thank you for reading this rant about people overusing the term “OP”!

TL;DR: People throw the word “OP” around without any sense of what it actually means or what effect something truly being “OP” would have on the meta.

Disagree with this a lot. Just because something has checks does not mean that it is not OP; everything has checks. What matters is if: A. Some of said checks are Counters and B. The viability of these checks without the Pokemon in the meta. For instance, Xerneas last generation. Both Dusk Mane and Poisonceus, two major checks to it (one being a borderline counter) would still be extremely good in a meta without Xerneas. I cannot say the same for Mray checks, as mons like Zygarde, which would still be very good without mray in the tier, were pretty horrible checks and lost to the majority of mray sets anyway. Mray checks all the boxes of OP. You cannot tell me with a straight face that TTar or Magnemite would be at all "good" without mray. There are many usable checks to the Dragon; people merely chose the ones that didn't autolose to the rest of the meta. This still does not mean they were good. They simply served the role of Mray check + can do other stuff.

Mray necessitated at least two checks per team; otherwise you would lose to it far too often. This is where we can safely say something is OP. Not only does Mray warp the builder to an arguably unhealthy degree; but it is still far and away the best Pokemon in the tier. Dynamax, in and of itself, IS a broken mechanic. Arguing otherwise is simply ludicrous. Diancie is a horrible, horrible Pokemon that literally only checks two other mons in the meta, yet it is ranked because it can check SOME Yve sets. Once again, Dynamax warps the builder to an unarguably unhealthy degree, and still is ridiculously strong and unmanageable. By your logic, nothing would be OP, as everything has checks. I could say Eternatus Eternamax is checked by Gothitelle, this does not make it any less of a threat. Brokenness does not mean it is uncheckable; rather, the ways in which one must go to check it sacrifice beating other, more common things in the meta, all in an effort to not automatically lose. Broken does not equal Unbeatable.

 

[Geysers]

You cannot tell me with a straight face that TTar or Magnemite would be at all "good" without mray.

I absolutely can. Ttar filled a useful niche as a specially bulky pursuit trapper capable of easily taking on Mega Gengar, which was an extraordinarily dominant presence in AG last gen. Magnemite, on the other hand wasn’t good even with Mray, being handily outclassed by Lugia.

 

[ImperialGamer517]

Disagree with this a lot. Just because something has checks does not mean that it is not OP; everything has checks. What matters is if: A. Some of said checks are Counters and B. The viability of these checks without the Pokemon in the meta. For instance, Xerneas last generation. Both Dusk Mane and Poisonceus, two major checks to it (one being a borderline counter) would still be extremely good in a meta without Xerneas. I cannot say the same for Mray checks, as mons like Zygarde, which would still be very good without mray in the tier, were pretty horrible checks and lost to the majority of mray sets anyway. Mray checks all the boxes of OP. You cannot tell me with a straight face that TTar or Magnemite would be at all "good" without mray. There are many usable checks to the Dragon; people merely chose the ones that didn't autolose to the rest of the meta. This still does not mean they were good. They simply served the role of Mray check + can do other stuff.

Mray necessitated at least two checks per team; otherwise you would lose to it far too often. This is where we can safely say something is OP. Not only does Mray warp the builder to an arguably unhealthy degree; but it is still far and away the best Pokemon in the tier. Dynamax, in and of itself, IS a broken mechanic. Arguing otherwise is simply ludicrous. Diancie is a horrible, horrible Pokemon that literally only checks two other mons in the meta, yet it is ranked because it can check SOME Yve sets. Once again, Dynamax warps the builder to an unarguably unhealthy degree, and still is ridiculously strong and unmanageable. By your logic, nothing would be OP, as everything has checks. I could say Eternatus Eternamax is checked by Gothitelle, this does not make it any less of a threat. Brokenness does not mean it is uncheckable; rather, the ways in which one must go to check it sacrifice beating other, more common things in the meta, all in an effort to not automatically lose. Broken does not equal Unbeatable.

I’d agree with this, especially the last sentence. Take Dracovish for example. It’s EXTREMELY broken, but Seismitoad can easily switch in to block Fishious Rend. Mega Ray still has its checks, though. Stealth Rock makes it more prone to getting revenge killed. Mega Rayquaza also hates burn, since it is a physically offensive mon. In short, Mega Ray may be extremely broken, but it still has checks.

 

[J1mm1P]

“Overpowered”=something that possesses too much power
This is overpowered. Just because it has checks doesn't mean it's not overpowered. Also this isn't even related to what we were talking about (Megas, Z-Moves, Dynamax).

This is wrong. Mgar by the end of the gen packed Focus Blast quite often, making ttar quite an unreliable check. I also do not need to say that checking a couple of dominant mons and losing to everything else is being "good".

“Oh, just because a mon is checked by (insert other mon here) it wouldn't be good if a mon it checked didn't exist.”
Yes, checking dominant mons and losing to everything else isn't good, but how does Ttar lose to everything else?

 

[12-XVI]

I'd argue that the term “OP” is thrown around haphazardly by inexperienced players who want an excuse for something sweeping them. Look back at Gen 7. Was Mega Ray destroying every single team? No!

Back in gen 6 AG I did well on the ladder using a team of 6 Arceus—even beating the #1 a few times with that team while he used M-Ray. So I know that M-Ray can be beaten. And even if he was unbeatable then that would have just put the blame on me for not using him. To me something being OP is not an excuse for losing but is just a statement about something's influence on the metagame. When everyone either has to use a certain Pokemon or has to use counter/checks against that Pokemon that are useless besides countering/checking that Pokemon then a Pokemon is OP in my book.

 

[Cuddly]

Dynamax, Mega, and Z-Crystals Ruin the game. Change my mind

Hot take: 100% ironically, at least they aren’t Choice Scarf and U-Turn.
These 2 things were the biggest faults of Gen 4. They were fine for the generation, but as power creep continued, the worse these 2 things made it.
I secretly hope GameFreak makes nerfs them. IDK how for Choice Scarf, but make it so you have to choose the Pokemon you want to switch into for U-Turn and its clones.

 

[64 Squares]

AGLT Usage Stats:

Stats:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| -    | Arceus-*           |  136 |  90.67% |  47.06% |
| 1    | Necrozma-Dusk-Mane |  120 |  80.00% |  51.67% |
| 2    | Ho-Oh              |   82 |  54.67% |  54.88% |
| 3    | Zygarde            |   57 |  38.00% |  47.37% |
| 4    | Zacian-Crowned     |   54 |  36.00% |  61.11% |
| 5    | Groudon            |   51 |  34.00% |  47.06% |
| 6    | Yveltal            |   46 |  30.67% |  56.52% |
| 7    | Rayquaza           |   43 |  28.67% |  39.53% |
| 8    | Arceus-Ground      |   42 |  28.00% |  45.24% |
| 9    | Chansey            |   31 |  20.67% |  54.84% |
| 10   | Kyogre             |   29 |  19.33% |  48.28% |
| 10   | Ditto              |   29 |  19.33% |  48.28% |
| 12   | Ferrothorn         |   27 |  18.00% |  44.44% |
| 13   | Eternatus          |   25 |  16.67% |  56.00% |
| 14   | Arceus-Water       |   24 |  16.00% |  62.50% |
| 15   | Xerneas            |   15 |  10.00% |  53.33% |
| 15   | Smeargle           |   15 |  10.00% |  33.33% |
| 17   | Gliscor            |   14 |   9.33% |  78.57% |
| 17   | Tyranitar          |   14 |   9.33% |  64.29% |
| 19   | Deoxys-Speed       |   10 |   6.67% |  40.00% |
| 20   | Arceus             |    9 |   6.00% |  66.67% |
| 20   | Diancie            |    9 |   6.00% |  55.56% |
| 20   | Shedinja           |    9 |   6.00% |  44.44% |
| 20   | Arceus-Dark        |    9 |   6.00% |  33.33% |
| 24   | Lunala             |    6 |   4.00% |  33.33% |
| 24   | Arceus-Fairy       |    6 |   4.00% |  33.33% |
| 26   | Marshadow          |    5 |   3.33% |  80.00% |
| 26   | Gengar             |    5 |   3.33% |  40.00% |
| 26   | Excadrill          |    5 |   3.33% |  40.00% |
| 26   | Arceus-Ghost       |    5 |   3.33% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Darmanitan-Galar   |    4 |   2.67% |  25.00% |
| 30   | Tapu Koko          |    4 |   2.67% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Lugia              |    3 |   2.00% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Genesect           |    3 |   2.00% |  66.67% |
| 32   | Zekrom             |    3 |   2.00% |  33.33% |
| 32   | Gothitelle         |    3 |   2.00% |   0.00% |
| 32   | Porygon-Z          |    3 |   2.00% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Cloyster           |    2 |   1.33% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Sableye            |    2 |   1.33% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Omastar            |    2 |   1.33% |  50.00% |
| 37   | Amoonguss          |    2 |   1.33% |  50.00% |
| 37   | Landorus-Therian   |    2 |   1.33% |  50.00% |
| 37   | Mewtwo             |    2 |   1.33% |  50.00% |
| 37   | Latias             |    2 |   1.33% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Skuntank           |    2 |   1.33% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Palkia             |    1 |   0.67% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Infernape          |    1 |   0.67% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Solgaleo           |    1 |   0.67% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Lycanroc           |    1 |   0.67% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Grimmsnarl         |    1 |   0.67% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Drifblim           |    1 |   0.67% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Scolipede          |    1 |   0.67% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Espeon             |    1 |   0.67% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Mr. Mime           |    1 |   0.67% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Pyukumuku          |    1 |   0.67% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Arceus-Electric    |    1 |   0.67% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Snorlax            |    1 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Aerodactyl         |    1 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Heatran            |    1 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Gyarados           |    1 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Ribombee           |    1 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Arceus-Flying      |    1 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Zacian             |    1 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Vivillon           |    1 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Deoxys-Attack      |    1 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Breloom            |    1 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Bibarel            |    1 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Mandibuzz          |    1 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Landorus           |    1 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Arceus-Steel       |    1 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Corviknight        |    1 |   0.67% |   0.00% |
| 45   | Weezing-Galar      |    1 |   0.67% |   0.00% |

Unfortunately I'm a bit busy right now, or I'd post some thoughts about the meta game. Expect me to edit this in a few days with some general trends I want to highlight. Excited to hear what surprised you guys either from the usage or win rate statistics!

 

[theotherguytm]

| 45 | Drifblim | 1 | 0.67% | 100.00% | | 45 | Scolipede | 1 | 0.67% | 100.00% | | 45 | Espeon | 1 | 0.67% | 100.00% | | 45 | Mr. Mime | 1 | 0.67% | 100.00% |

Ok, who bought full BP.

| 30 | Tapu Koko | 4 | 2.67% | 0.00% |

lol.

| 32 | Lugia | 3 | 2.00% | 100.00% |

That is a surprise. It is kinda hard to fit on the same team as Ho-Oh I guess (especially given no Species Clause means it is competing with another Ho-Oh), but it's still a solid mon.

| 17 | Gliscor | 14 | 9.33% | 78.57% |

Gliscor is the best OU mon in the game, and is way better than Lando-T. Change my mind.

| 4 | Zacian-Crowned | 54 | 36.00% | 61.11% |

61% winrate proving the doubters wrong. Top mon, unpredictable, literally bottomless movepool (every time we think we've figured it out, someone digs up Assurance or something like that), KOs stuff for fun.

| 45 | Zacian | 1 | 0.67% | 0.00% |

...Not gonna lie, slightly disappointed this mon is struggling like it is. Ah well.