All Gens Most Dominant Pokemon in History II

My ranking:

1. Tyranitar
2. Gengar
3. Starmie
4. Zapdos
5. Snorlax
6. Skarmory
7. Blissey
8. Suicune
9. Celebi
10. Jirachi/Heatran
 

Isa

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I think not existing should be classified as having no impact on the metagame. Heatran etc. should therefore not be included unless similarly once-defining mons are such as Egg and Zam.
 
How should we rank Rotom-A? In DPP, it's a matter of moveset, but in BW, it's a case of typing and totally different viability. It's still technically the same mon (hell, same mon as Rotom itself), so I don't mind just flat-out ranking it as Rotom.
You are not claiming Rotom-W, Rotom-H and Rotom as one mon but Chansey and Blissey as two. Evolutions are more similar than forms in general.
 

Inspirited

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Rotom doesn't evolve into the Rotom-A formes though

Rotom-A formes should definitely remain separate from Rotom, however, because of stat distribution. We could justify separating the Rotom-A formes from each other as well because of BW changes to their typing and the different coverage (STAB in BW) move between formes in DPP (if anything).

Separating all of the Rotom formes is what is best here imo.
 

Inspirited

There is usually higher ground.
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Yeah, it does. The only difference is that they can revert, while Blissey can't turn back into Chansey. The rest is just terminology.
The difference is they share the same dex number. They are the same species.

Edit: I might as well use this post to say that McM's list with Starmie and Zapdos switched would be the one I would go with.
 
I agree with McM's list in general, just I see Starmie should be switched with Zapdos: Great offensive Spinner and Special Hitter in ADV, plus thanks to Recover and that speed he can send Mence running for the hills. DPP he was S rank, premier spinner except for the guys who wanted Forretress's hazard setting. BW he benefited from the rain buff immensely, as he saw use on all sorts of teams, to spin, hit hard against rain teams or for them, revenge kill stuff, etc. Idk much about RBY and GSC, but Psychic was the god-type back then and Starmie hits a pretty high speed so it should have been p good. Zapdos on the other hand: Great in RBY and GSC (apparently), great in DPP, not as great in ADV and UU in BW, which probably puts a big dent in its nomination.
 
first off, starmie isnt a salamence counter

more importantly,

lord help me
I've used Bulky Starmie on offensive teams to counter Mence, using Recover to stay healthy while forcing Mence to switch in fear of Ice Beam. Zapdos on the other hand I've always felt is vulnerable to TSS Stall (so is almost everything, but still), and is Hardwalled by Blissey. The only real use I found for it is BPing Subs and Agility to stuff like DDTar and Hera, and threatening Bulky Waters, and it only really takes on a bigger role for my team once the enemy Bliss is down. It's still p good though, what I meant was its not the force it is in GSC and DPP (come on it was top 5 in GSC and was clear cut top 10 in DPP (6-7 IMO), ADV its top 15, just not as defining as in other gens, and it definitely belongs on the list, just not that high up it).
 
restalk zapdos beats blissey 1 on 1 though, unless it's a hidden power zap vs cm bliss. Toxic or roar are usually better though, and you can just drain bliss of its pp, and force it out if it boosts up. tss doesn't really stop zap, the only thing that hurts it is sand. restalk zap is ridiculously hard to get rid of in adv, you can't trap it, not a whole lot of things can lure it, and it can just loop rest which combined with the spikes immunity, and decent speed allowing it to rest before an attack, makes it hard to wear down. Restalk zap is also really good in stall on stall since it will beat pretty much everything that can't 3hko it thanks to pressure and restalk. Probably the most valuable asset to have in a pp stall situation. It doesn't matter that it's walled by bliss because that's not the point.
 
not only is bulky starmie really out of place on offense but cbmence still pounds it with hp flying; the bulkiest starmie that outruns adamant mence takes 69% - 81%... and then you remember that some run jolly, which does 67% - 79% if you invest to outrun it, and the adamant set now does 74% - 87%. starmie does not counter salamence.

in addition to what dan said i'd just like to mention how unbelievably strong +spatk (not necessarily modest b/c mixed sets) zapdos is and it has a lot of stuff it can play around with... for what its worth i consider zap the 3rd best pokemon in adv and "only" 6th in dpp :toast:
 

Isa

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Why are we talking about Rotom formes when nobody believes it to be top 10 regardless
 
Idk much about RBY and GSC, but Psychic was the god-type back then and Starmie hits a pretty high speed so it should have been p good.
Don't talk about gens you don't understand.

Starmie's kinda an oddball in RBY. On one hand, it beats most of the meta thanks to its Ice/Psychic resists plus Thunder Wave and Recover combined with a wide selection of special attacks (Blizzard, STAB Surf, STAB Hydro Pump, STAB Psychic, Thunderbolt). On the other hand, its Electric weakness means Chansey can kill it, which means it's walled (while Alakazam's not, because it can outstall Chansey), and it doesn't really like tangling with Alakazam itself either for complicated and somewhat recursive reasons. The result is a defensive 'mon that usually runs from other defensive 'mons, but sweeps with little difficulty if they're removed. Also a really good way to lure and/or paralyse Chansey if you want to.

In GSC it's not nearly as good, mostly because it lures the newly-buffed Snorlax, which is on every team and not something you want to let in for free. With the Blizzard nerf and the introduction of RestTalking Electrics, those are a problem too. As such, it's more of a role-player than some sort of sweeping behemoth. Specifically, it's a highly durable and highly effective spinner (outspeeds Cloyster, Gengar dies to Psychic) and also one of the few real counters to Machamp, while also screwing with Charizard and Grounds like any Water.

Zapdos on the other hand: Great in RBY and GSC (apparently), great in DPP, not as great in ADV and UU in BW
hurr

Zapdos in RBY is decent, but only decent. Thunder doesn't have a 30% paralysis chance yet, Hidden Power doesn't exist yet, Sleep Talk doesn't exist yet, and Blizzard is really fucking common. What this translates to is a Pokemon that hits hard from two uncommon and useful STABs (super-effective STAB on Waters AND Exeggutor is awesome, and non-Normal physical STAB allows it to hit Chansey and Gengar), but has hard walls in the Rock/Grounds, needs Thunder Wave if it's to spread status, and has a hard time switching in on most things (in particular, it does NOT counter Starmie or Lapras). Its Speed is also really awkward; the common stuff in RBY is either really slow (base speed 55 - Exeggutor - or slower; I guess there's Lapras at base 60) or really fast (base speed 110 - Tauros and Gengar - or faster). So base 100 isn't quite enough.

Zapdos in GSC is amazing, second only to Snorlax. Status sponge extraordinaire, immune to Spikes, can actually beat the Grounds with Hidden Power. Snorlax and Raikou are really the only things that can deal with it (Blissey is bad in GSC).

From what I understand of ADV ADV!Zapdos > RBY!Zapdos.

The difference is they share the same dex number. They are the same species.
As I said, terminology. Chansey and Blissey are the same species in any context where biological terms are used somewhat properly, as opposed to Pokemon's hilariously bad misuse.

Why are we talking about Rotom formes when nobody believes it to be top 10 regardless
Because Chansey/Blissey is a candidate if you count them as one 'mon, which they basically are.
 
actually been meaning to get around this for a while, but kept forgetting.

1.
: pretty obvious tbh, it got pissed when snorlax stole it's thunder in gen 2, so it decided to fuck it up for everybody else for 3 gens, all of which it kept getting better.

2/3.


I just couldnt justify putting one over the other, as both gengar and starmie have been huge forces in the metagame. both are super fast, and have great utility.

4.


Decent in gen 1, superb in every gen until the gen 5 powercreep.

5.


Same as zapdos, except great in gen 1, but fell off the wagen in 4. gen, which is why zapdos is higher.

6.


THE wall of gen 2, and became one of the best win-cons in gen 3,4,5.

7.


like suicune, except ubers in gen 2, and being more of an annoyance, is just generally versatile af.

8.


A lot of people is gonna disagree, but I have no doubts that heatran's only reason for not being as dominant, is that it was introduced too late.

9.


essentially serves the same funtion, being able to stop dead every special sweeper, chansey in gen 1 is better than blissey ever was tho.

10.


can be swapped out for heatran if you dont like my reasoning, this thing is stupid versitile, and is just always a solid choice.
 

Mr.E

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Zapdos is so boss in RBY that everyone uses shitty Golem/Rhydon on their team on the off-chance that the opponent has it.

Thundurus is a (BAN ME PLEASE), Zapdos 4 lyfe.
 
Zapdos is so boss in RBY that everyone uses shitty Golem/Rhydon on their team on the off-chance that the opponent has it.
Normal resist is more important. And yes, Gengar also does that, but Zapdos isn't even the entirety of the reason to use GolDon over Gengar; Gengar has no STAB.

And they've only got 40-50% usage. They're common, but not omnipresent.
 
Which stats are those, and are they 40-50% each or combined? It's not like peeps are going to use both on the same team.
Last couple of months on PO (Showdown's stats link doesn't cover old gens anymore, wtf). And 40-50% is their combined usage. As you say, people don't use both on the same team, so they can be added directly.
 
non-sequitur but i think it's totally viable (if not great) to use both rhydon and golem in the same team. rby isn't exactly filled with great options. running both just means you can explode a lot more freely with golem (e.g. on the exeggutor, which makes rhydon that much better).

rhydon + golem in rby > raikou + zapdos in gsc.

also, the take away from the first version of this thread boils down to a couple of things:

1. gsc snorlax is the most dominant pokemon of any generation. by far.
2. ttar is hugely overrated in gen2 by all non-gen 2 players.
3. rby gengar has two very controversial stances
4. rby snorlax is underrated by far too many (top 3 easy, top 2 imo).
5. usage rates cannot/should not be compared across gens
6. celebi's stance in gen 2 is what?
7. how does being non-ou weigh vs not existing at all? at what point does a pokemon existence count AGAINST him? e.g. is it better to not exist than to be shit tier (gen 1 ttar vs gen 5 snorlax)?
 

Mr.E

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RBY has enough good options that running Golem/Rhydon would probably be silly if not for the whole Electric hard counter thing. (Jolteon is no Zapdos, but...) They're both outsped and 2HKOed by everything. I suppose the T-Wave immunity is nice, gives them a bit better chance to get PAR support without being equally ruined by it, but they're not good. Golem is just a glorified Explosion bot (which I will remind you doesn't automagically OHKO everything like it does Gens 2-4), who counters all the other shitty Exploders except Cloyster.

Normal resist is only so useful, considering they get wrecked by everything that carries Body Slam anyway but the odd Dodrio. It's mostly only useful for making Tauros think twice about Hyper Beaming, or if you get real lucky you catch an Eggy. Gengar's immunity is a lot more useful just because it's a big fuck you to Wrap douchers.
 
1. gsc snorlax is the most dominant pokemon of any generation. by far.
Agreed. Granted, GSC has many less threats than say DPP or BW, but lax in GSC is kind of undeniable as most dominant ever.
2. ttar is hugely overrated in gen2 by all non-gen 2 players.
I'm not really a GSCer myself. I'd probably say it's less than Eggy and company, on par with Nido and friends, above Champ and others.
3. rby gengar has two very controversial stances
I'm guessing you mean Wrap vs Wrapless metas here? Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, we're looking at Wrap meta since it's Smogon's current official RBY.
4. rby snorlax is underrated by far too many (top 3 easy, top 2 imo).
Easily top 3, arguably #2, yeah.
5. usage rates cannot/should not be compared across gens
Agreed, though we can still look at overall dominance in a gen. Later gens might have a few more dominant mons than earlier ones simply because there are more Pokemon that exist. Also, going by usage, dominating a later gen doesn't look as impressive as dominating RBY or GSC, but it's still as impressive for these rankings imo.
6. celebi's stance in gen 2 is what?
7. how does being non-ou weigh vs not existing at all? at what point does a pokemon existence count AGAINST him? e.g. is it better to not exist than to be shit tier (gen 1 ttar vs gen 5 snorlax)?
I'll lump these two together. It's kind of debatable how to go about this. I'd say it kinda goes:
Dominant > Great > Good > Consistently Viable / Generally Decent > Banned > Non-existent > Niche / Poor > Awful

So Celebi is better than Jirachi or Dodrio as far gen 2 goes, but worse than Rhydon.

I'd say neither RBY Ttar or BW Lax really matter, but would be more forgiving of RBY Ttar because it didn't exist.





For actual discussion, sorry I've been absent for a while. I'm back, so let's get this rolling again. Any objections to Ttar in the #1 spot? If not, I think we can start looking at #2 now~
 
Dominant > Great > Good > Consistently Viable / Generally Decent > Banned > Non-existent > Niche / Poor > Awful
to break it down into less subjective terms, how about OU > banned > viable/BL > not exist > UU
 

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