Victini is getting a kill every single time that it switches in onto Bug. With maybe the exception of Araquanid, everything on bug is 2hko'd by Victini. Thus, it cannot be understated how important that Heracross is to Bug right now with that guaranteed ability to remove it. This alone warrants its use over Buzzwole, without even mentioning Heracross' better speed tier and better stab moves.
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Resource Monotype USM Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Eien
- Start date
You two are basically repeating the fact that Hera is needed due to pursuit trapping, when I said that cband Scizor also runs.
>| 252 Atk Heracross Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 128-152 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Since Pursuit on the switch doubles damage it'd still be like 89% at max, so without rocks it's a rip for Hera.)
>| 252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 294-348 (86.2 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (Again double the power, it kills)
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Yeah I edited it rn.
e1:And also, even without the double base power boost you can see that banded Scizor does a better job on trapping and removing it from the field, when the only advantage you could use from Hera's pursuit trapping is trying to snowball with it, which might not work most of the time due to people switching in on things that will resist Pursuit.
e2: I tested it and Hera does 80% with Pursuit to a -1 Victini on a switch, which means you need prior chip of Stealth Rocks or some chip after, and most people always take out hazard setters before removing them or knows how to keep hazards out of the way so yeah, it's mostly based on the player's skill. But yet Scizor with cband does a better job at pursuit trapping it on first place.
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Well thing with scizor is even if it does more dmg with pursuit that only works if it's band tini. If it's scarf then you have to p much sack two mons instead. Also running pursuit on hera is a good job of role compressing so that you can run other coverage on scizor or even opt for a mega scizor.
Scarfed or not it tanks a Pursuit. If they predict a pursuit, which is obvious since that's one of Hera's most important roles, they can just straight stay in and kill it.
1. Bug is going to have rocks up 99% of the time, thus allowing for the kill.
2. Even if you were correct, Buzzwole still wouldn't be helping in this situation, thus still giving Heracross the edge as it is more useful here than Buzzwole.
3. Heracross is better than Buzzwole in other ways, as previously listed in other posts, thus warranting a higher place on the VR, in addition to its use in removing Victini. The few niches that Buzzwole has allow it to be B, but those are in no way as good/useful/imperative as Heracross.
This is frankly just the state of Bug. Perhaps if there is a good Bug/Dark type that gets released in Gen 8 that can do this job better than Heracross, Buzzwole might become the premiere scarfer, but right now, the role compression is what makes Heracross so good. And when Bug has to choose which mon to sack every single time that Victini switches in, this is a major blessing to have for the type.
In the spirit of some discussion, imma go ahead and do some really quick and big noms, and gonna agree with a few things as well:
Mega Steelix (Ground) C -> B -> A: Pretty self explanitory for this one; Mega Steelix has rose in usage considerably on Ground teams, arguably making Sandless Ground the dominant archetype at the moment. Being able to deal with some unfavorable matchups for Ground such as Dragon and Fairy so reliably (to the point where it's influenced some Tapu Bulu to run Disable to prevent it from steamrolling Fairy teams) turn it into an invaluable member of Ground teams today, to the point where I believe it should be warranted as an A rank. Realistically though, a rise for this mon is extremely overdue.
Hippowdon S -> A: If Mega Steelix is rising, then I believe Hippowdon should drop. Sure it's like the sole enabler for Sand Ground to function, while being a Stealth Rock compressor and generally physically defensive wall. That's still all fine and dandy, but if your only teammate that could effectively use Sand is Excadrill, in a meta where bulky setup sweeping is everywhere, SS rain becoming even more prominent at high level play, and Water/Dark/Flying in general reaching a fever pitch in usage, it really doesn't make sense for Hippo to remain at the top with so much going against it.
Dugtrio A -> C (honestly D tbh): Ok I know we've gone back and forth between this thing in the past, but you'd be lying right now if you told me this thing was actually good. Less and less teams have used Dugtrio for the sole reason that Mega Steelix is much better at handling most of the threats that Dugtrio is supposed to deal with. Less people using Scarf Bulu means that Bulu doesn't die to Wood Hammer recoil + Sludge Wave (assuming Sash is intact); less usage of Electric and Normal teams in general mean that the point of its ability to trap doesn't have nearly as much use as it was various months ago. Arena Trap is the one thing keeping Dugtrio relevant in an evolving tier of which it is essentially a one-trick pony from a past time. Please drop this.
Mega Latios (Dragon) UR -> D: Kind of beating a dead horse here, but realistically both Mega Latias and Mega Altaria very much suck right now. The rising Dark usage severely hampers Mega Latias from CM sweeping, while Mega Altaria can be easily walled by various physically defensive pivots including P2, Slowbro, Toxapex, Celesteela, Mega Steelix, and much more preventing it from doing anything safely without risking momentum loss. With Mega Latios, you can utilize a solid base 160 Special Attack stat (of which it has a very flexible and vast movepool mind you), as well as a passable base 130 Attack stat and Earthquake to bypass would be checks to conventional base Latios sets such as Alolan Muk and Heatran.
Druddigon UR -> D: Alright I know ya'll might be thinking I'm off my rocker for this one, but after playing with this a couple of times, this thing actually has some merit to it. I use it as a lead over Chomp which actually serves as a better lead thanks to SR/Glare and other utility options with Mold Breaker which really helps in the Fairy/Dark mu's by bypassing Mega Diancie/Sableye's Magic Bounce. I know I'm talking about a reeaaaaaaally specfic thing here, but I feel like ya'll should try it out. You might be surprised.
Mega Gardevoir (Psychic) D -> C: I know this just got a drop, but lets cut this lass a little slack here. The rising usage of Dark teams favor a Psychic-type that can reliably beat them. Mega Gardevoir has the potential to blow up entire Dark teams bar Alolan Muk, which it can proceed to burn and permit CB Victini/Metagross to break it down themselves. Otherwise, it's a solid special attacker all around, as it has the capacity to blow up Dragon teams on its own as well, while also pressuring Water and Poison teams consistently with AoA sets. It's warranted a rise back up I'd say.
Landorus-T (Flying) S -> A: Agree. Mega Aerodactyl's presence on Flying teams does pretty much what Scarf Lando-T is supposed to do and more. Tbh I think it should use more exploration as a Z-crystal user since Mega Aero can cover for the roles meant for Scarf sets; it may be more beneficial to utilize in this balance heavy meta.
Azumarill (Fairy) S -> A: Agree. Between the amount of teams that prep for Azumarill nowadays, its presence has severely diminished in today's metagame. Azumarill being forced to run Jolly nowadays has too many opponents (Mantine/Mega Scizor/Mega Venusaur/Seismitoad) looking to speed creep it and strike it down before it can effectively do damage. Naturally defensive foes such as Mega Steelix and Porygon2 are threatened less as a result of Azumarill being forced to run Jolly, as the drop in attack from the lack of an Adamant nature is pitiful damage for Azumarill. There's just way too many things going against it right now for me to believe that this is an S rank threat.
Mega Steelix (Ground) C -> B -> A: Pretty self explanitory for this one; Mega Steelix has rose in usage considerably on Ground teams, arguably making Sandless Ground the dominant archetype at the moment. Being able to deal with some unfavorable matchups for Ground such as Dragon and Fairy so reliably (to the point where it's influenced some Tapu Bulu to run Disable to prevent it from steamrolling Fairy teams) turn it into an invaluable member of Ground teams today, to the point where I believe it should be warranted as an A rank. Realistically though, a rise for this mon is extremely overdue.
Hippowdon S -> A: If Mega Steelix is rising, then I believe Hippowdon should drop. Sure it's like the sole enabler for Sand Ground to function, while being a Stealth Rock compressor and generally physically defensive wall. That's still all fine and dandy, but if your only teammate that could effectively use Sand is Excadrill, in a meta where bulky setup sweeping is everywhere, SS rain becoming even more prominent at high level play, and Water/Dark/Flying in general reaching a fever pitch in usage, it really doesn't make sense for Hippo to remain at the top with so much going against it.
Dugtrio A -> C (honestly D tbh): Ok I know we've gone back and forth between this thing in the past, but you'd be lying right now if you told me this thing was actually good. Less and less teams have used Dugtrio for the sole reason that Mega Steelix is much better at handling most of the threats that Dugtrio is supposed to deal with. Less people using Scarf Bulu means that Bulu doesn't die to Wood Hammer recoil + Sludge Wave (assuming Sash is intact); less usage of Electric and Normal teams in general mean that the point of its ability to trap doesn't have nearly as much use as it was various months ago. Arena Trap is the one thing keeping Dugtrio relevant in an evolving tier of which it is essentially a one-trick pony from a past time. Please drop this.
Mega Latios (Dragon) UR -> D: Kind of beating a dead horse here, but realistically both Mega Latias and Mega Altaria very much suck right now. The rising Dark usage severely hampers Mega Latias from CM sweeping, while Mega Altaria can be easily walled by various physically defensive pivots including P2, Slowbro, Toxapex, Celesteela, Mega Steelix, and much more preventing it from doing anything safely without risking momentum loss. With Mega Latios, you can utilize a solid base 160 Special Attack stat (of which it has a very flexible and vast movepool mind you), as well as a passable base 130 Attack stat and Earthquake to bypass would be checks to conventional base Latios sets such as Alolan Muk and Heatran.
Druddigon UR -> D: Alright I know ya'll might be thinking I'm off my rocker for this one, but after playing with this a couple of times, this thing actually has some merit to it. I use it as a lead over Chomp which actually serves as a better lead thanks to SR/Glare and other utility options with Mold Breaker which really helps in the Fairy/Dark mu's by bypassing Mega Diancie/Sableye's Magic Bounce. I know I'm talking about a reeaaaaaaally specfic thing here, but I feel like ya'll should try it out. You might be surprised.
Mega Gardevoir (Psychic) D -> C: I know this just got a drop, but lets cut this lass a little slack here. The rising usage of Dark teams favor a Psychic-type that can reliably beat them. Mega Gardevoir has the potential to blow up entire Dark teams bar Alolan Muk, which it can proceed to burn and permit CB Victini/Metagross to break it down themselves. Otherwise, it's a solid special attacker all around, as it has the capacity to blow up Dragon teams on its own as well, while also pressuring Water and Poison teams consistently with AoA sets. It's warranted a rise back up I'd say.
Landorus-T (Flying) S -> A: Agree. Mega Aerodactyl's presence on Flying teams does pretty much what Scarf Lando-T is supposed to do and more. Tbh I think it should use more exploration as a Z-crystal user since Mega Aero can cover for the roles meant for Scarf sets; it may be more beneficial to utilize in this balance heavy meta.
Azumarill (Fairy) S -> A: Agree. Between the amount of teams that prep for Azumarill nowadays, its presence has severely diminished in today's metagame. Azumarill being forced to run Jolly nowadays has too many opponents (Mantine/Mega Scizor/Mega Venusaur/Seismitoad) looking to speed creep it and strike it down before it can effectively do damage. Naturally defensive foes such as Mega Steelix and Porygon2 are threatened less as a result of Azumarill being forced to run Jolly, as the drop in attack from the lack of an Adamant nature is pitiful damage for Azumarill. There's just way too many things going against it right now for me to believe that this is an S rank threat.
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A quick note about Azumarill. I am not sure whether it deserves to be A or S but a point that has been slightly overlooked is the impact this Pokemon plays on the entire Monotype meta. Azu may not be as effective because it is prepared for by speed creeping but look at it from the other perspective. One Pokemon has had such a dramatic presence that people are speed creeping Azumarill to 200 Spe then to 219 when they changed to Jolly on well over half the the types in the game.
If anything, that would be another indication it should drop 1. because there are sufficient threats that hamper Azumarill's job enough to warrant this change, and 2. because Azumarill's power has fallen dramatically with the switch from Adamant to Jolly.
I'd like to nominate salamance.
Unranked to C
Salamance can fulfill largely the same role as dragonite however the absence of multiscale makes him much more vulnerable and largely incapable of using choice band. While moxie is useful with dragon dance sometimes he is outclassed by dragonite but as he is so similar I feel it would be unfair to rate him lower than c.
Unranked to C
Salamance can fulfill largely the same role as dragonite however the absence of multiscale makes him much more vulnerable and largely incapable of using choice band. While moxie is useful with dragon dance sometimes he is outclassed by dragonite but as he is so similar I feel it would be unfair to rate him lower than c.
This similarity to Dragonite is exactly why Salamence is unranked. Salamence is simply too vulnerable in any battle, and just about any type will always have an answer for this pokemon. Dragon as a type simply needs this slot for a different role, and can’t afford to lose a better pokemon. Salamence can be reliably revenge killed/checked by nearly every type, so Salamence really just isnt worth using at all. Salamence is just bad Dragonite, and for that reason theres no reason to use it instead of Dragonite. For those reasons it should remain unranked.
Hi, as someone who has used a lot of variations of Dragon teams, Salamence does not fill the same role at all. The main reason is Dragonite has access to Extreme Speed and Superpower, both things Salamence does not. Choice Band Dragonite helps with Greninja, cleaning late game with Extreme Speed and helps with walls like Chansey, Porygon2. Celesteela and Toxapex. Salamence only thing in common with Dragonite is its typing, as Salamence does not have access to a powerful Fire-type move that is physical and a weaker Fighting-type move in Brick Break which fails to do anything to the normal duo of Porygon2 and Chansey. It also cannot help with the threat of Greninja without being at +2 with Dragon Dance, which puts a big strain on keeping Kyurem-B as healthy as possible. It also cannot be a emergency check to Mega Scizor like Dragonite can because of the lack of a strong Physical Fire move. Salamence does not bring anything new for the table and frankly does not do anything helpful for Dragon and the slot should be used for something better like Mega Latias, Hydreigon or Mega Altaria if not being ran alongside Dragonite. Salamence should stay unranked.
Sniped, gdi
I was thinking that regular gardevoir might deserve a C or D-rank on psychic. While being less powerful than m-garde and m-zam, it is still capable of pressuring many threats on dark, especially m-sab. And since psy runs m-gallade (or to an extent m-bro/m-latias), the other two megas are pretty irrelevant anyway.
Depending on the set, gardevoir can also fulfil other roles. Personally, I experimented with a scarf set and depending on the moveset the combination of trace/scarf allows to beat any weather abuser (excadrill/m-swampert/kingdra/a-raichu/a-sandslash) in the current metagame. HO psychic naturally struggles with faster, powerful attackers, especially once screens have disappeared and the ability to remove these threats can be valuable.
Trace itself is a situational but nonetheless excellent ability. Its uses depend strongly on the opponent you are facing, but aside from what I said above can also in many other cases come in handy, copying for example volt absorb of zeraora/thundurus; magnet pull of magnezone, natural cure of chansey or magic bounce of m-diancie.
The fairy typing is useful in the dragon matchup, were the opponent cannot freely click outrage anymore. Access to will o wisp, destiny bond and healing wish opens additional possibilities for creative sets. And of course, garde may also just trick its scarf (or other item) to otherwise annoying opponents, including mons that would naturally not flee from it such as a-muk, chansey or porygon2 to removes berries and eviolites.
Main disadvantages are the steel and poison matchup where it is easily killed but can still put in some work thanks to psychic/psyshock and focus blast. Also, bulky flying is probably its worst matchup where it can barely do anything. But psy often runs more powerful wallbreakers and setup sweepers (band victini/sd m-gallade/mew) which allow to tear down these types if used wisely and these mons often appreciate the removal/weakening of faster threats beforehand. So, despite these downsides, a low rank seems warranted, since gardevoir is in my opinion more useful than other mons currently ranked D (and partly C).
Depending on the set, gardevoir can also fulfil other roles. Personally, I experimented with a scarf set and depending on the moveset the combination of trace/scarf allows to beat any weather abuser (excadrill/m-swampert/kingdra/a-raichu/a-sandslash) in the current metagame. HO psychic naturally struggles with faster, powerful attackers, especially once screens have disappeared and the ability to remove these threats can be valuable.
Trace itself is a situational but nonetheless excellent ability. Its uses depend strongly on the opponent you are facing, but aside from what I said above can also in many other cases come in handy, copying for example volt absorb of zeraora/thundurus; magnet pull of magnezone, natural cure of chansey or magic bounce of m-diancie.
The fairy typing is useful in the dragon matchup, were the opponent cannot freely click outrage anymore. Access to will o wisp, destiny bond and healing wish opens additional possibilities for creative sets. And of course, garde may also just trick its scarf (or other item) to otherwise annoying opponents, including mons that would naturally not flee from it such as a-muk, chansey or porygon2 to removes berries and eviolites.
Main disadvantages are the steel and poison matchup where it is easily killed but can still put in some work thanks to psychic/psyshock and focus blast. Also, bulky flying is probably its worst matchup where it can barely do anything. But psy often runs more powerful wallbreakers and setup sweepers (band victini/sd m-gallade/mew) which allow to tear down these types if used wisely and these mons often appreciate the removal/weakening of faster threats beforehand. So, despite these downsides, a low rank seems warranted, since gardevoir is in my opinion more useful than other mons currently ranked D (and partly C).
In the current meta both steel and poison are used quite often causing many problems for mega gardevoir in general. It can be used somewhat due to its ability to have enough speed to outspeed mons. But, without the mega stats regular gardevoir cannot do as much damage needed it to do. There are simply better options able to do similar actions needed by gardevoir. For example in the dark matchup mega gallade + victini are able to do a good amount of work allowing enough damage to be done to be able to win. Also with the dragon matchup mons such as slowbro, jirachi and Latios are used in order to stop the numerous amount of physical and special by the set. In my opinion, gardevoir should stay unranked and mega gardevoir should stay at D unless the Meta change with a new set able to help the psychic/fairy take care of muk-Alola or other psychic threats.
Skarmory's prominence on Flying has been decreasing steadily ever since Celesteela replaced its main role on balanced Flying team as a defensive Steel-type. Balance Flying nowadays favors Celesteela because of its decreased passivity and special bulk, and the fact that it doesn't get Defog + Stealth Rock isn't really too important since they're both considerably easier to fit on teams due to the rise of Mega Aerodactyl builds and introduction of new Defog users, while Celesteela can be just as durable with Leech Seed + Protect. It's also irrelevant on offensive Flying teams as a lead thanks to Aerodactyl outclassing it heavily, where its higher speed is particularly good for using Taunt on faster Stealth Rock setters such as Garchomp, Krookodile and Jirachi. Its drop from A is long overdue, putting it alongside Pokemon such as Mega Aerodactyl and Gliscor, two Flying-type Pokemon that are more relevant in the metagame is a pedestal too high, and would fit better among the B ranks. The fact that it just doesn't have much going for it right now can be attributed to its pitiful usage in recent tournaments, being only used once in both Monotype BLT and WCOP combined across many Flying teams.
Virizion's niche on Fighting is its ability to set Reflect and Light Screen to help Fighting's setup sweepers, well, set up and sweep, which is comparable to how other offensive types function such as Fairy, Psychic, and certain Steel teams. Pokemon such as Keldeo, Mega Gallade, Hawlucha, Lucario, Terrakion, and Kommo-O appreciate Virizion's support in order to help them break teams apart easier. Virizion can also use Taunt and stop opposing hazards and Defog users from removing its screens, and Safeguard to protect the team from status conditions, especially against things like Mega Sableye and Scald burns that Fighting hates dealing with. It's not an incredible niche, but I think it's at least worth a D rank.
replays: 1 2 3
This was a nomination made a while ago but I disagree heavily on Mega Heracross dropping to C on Bug. Comparing Mega Heracross on Bug to its role on Fighting is completely incorrect as it's actually got something going for it on the type and even has Sticky Web to somewhat make up for its lackluster speed. Mega Heracros sets itself apart from Mega Scizor and Mega Pinsir as it serves as a nice wallbreaker that can threaten defensive cores on popular balance builds such as Dark, Water, Normal, Steel, and Flying because of its ridiculous power and strong Fighting STAB, further boosted by Swords Dance, and is a nice tool for Bug, as a cteam type, to utilize. This is definitely a good replay of Mega Heracross cteaming and putting immense pressure on a Dark team and showcases how dangerous it can be.
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Thank you so much! Some time ago I did a post explaining how Dugtrio was such a case of a overhyped mon which was close to a meme in monotype (I get it was good in OU, but there it had all the support to work well, from mega sableye to bounce hazards to other synergy partners etc). But at the time, people was still in the dugtrio hype train and the discussion ended there.
Today the metagame have evolved so 1 of the niches it had (weaken tapu bulu) is no more, plus mega steelix outclasses it right now, so I think its time to drop the mole.
Also in that same post I talked about mega steelix potential, so I pretty much agree with Havens for a mega steelix rise yuh
Hey, new to the forums, hoping to make a nomination real quick. I know there's a stereotype of newbies making single nominations and I have a few more on my mind but for now this is the main one I want to open with.
Drampa (Normal) UR -> D: Hear me out here because I really think there's potential that's been overlooked. Drampa has a vast offensive and supportive presence due to its access to (Offensive) Draco Meteor, Flamethrower/Heat Wave/Fire Blast, Ice Beam/Blizzard, Thunderbolt/Thunder, Surf, Hurricane, Focus Blast (Supportive) Glare, Tailwind, Defog, Screens, and Mist. Not only does it have access to the incredibly valuable Glare, which can be instrumental in taking down Ground type teams, it's also the only Normal pokemon in the format who can use Draco Meteor. And that's just the vastness of its movepool.
Drampa also benefits from 2 extremely useful abilities for the format in Sap Sipper and Cloud Nine. Sap Sipper helps immensely with the grass matchup, giving it full immunity to Breloom's Spore and Venusteela's Leech Seeds. On the other side, Cloud Nine can help it shut down the myriad of weather teams that reside in Mono: It can revenge cripple Sand Rush Excadrill/Swift Swim Mega Swampert, switch in on attempted Aurora Veils, dispatch Rock teams who appreciate the SpDef boost Sand provides, and even go toe-to-toe with weather sweepers due to its water, fire and grass resistances.
That's still not all Drampa has to offer. While speed control with Glare/Tailwind can prove invaluable for the myriad of slower sweepers on Mono Normal teams, such as Diggersby or Porygon-Z, Mist can prevent the latter from having its Z-Conversion removed. Speaking of Porygon-Z, did you know Drampa is tied with fellow Mono Normal picks Porygon-Z and Mega Pidgeot for the highest Special Attack among Normal types? This means Drampa can fill an offensive niche and a supportive one at the same time, and its moveset and ability variety allow it a measure of unpredictability that most Mono normal teams lack.
Now I'll be fully honest and admit to some of Drampa's faults. It's not exactly sporting a defensive typing or stellar defensive stats, and abysmal speed means it's liable to getting OHKOd by boosted attackers before you can even make use of its vast utility. Safe switching and caution is key, but I do believe if Heliolisk can be D-Tier than the Placid Dragon more than deserves a shot. It has significantly more offensive and supportive utility than Helio and alsoI really like the design.
Drampa (Normal) UR -> D: Hear me out here because I really think there's potential that's been overlooked. Drampa has a vast offensive and supportive presence due to its access to (Offensive) Draco Meteor, Flamethrower/Heat Wave/Fire Blast, Ice Beam/Blizzard, Thunderbolt/Thunder, Surf, Hurricane, Focus Blast (Supportive) Glare, Tailwind, Defog, Screens, and Mist. Not only does it have access to the incredibly valuable Glare, which can be instrumental in taking down Ground type teams, it's also the only Normal pokemon in the format who can use Draco Meteor. And that's just the vastness of its movepool.
Drampa also benefits from 2 extremely useful abilities for the format in Sap Sipper and Cloud Nine. Sap Sipper helps immensely with the grass matchup, giving it full immunity to Breloom's Spore and Venusteela's Leech Seeds. On the other side, Cloud Nine can help it shut down the myriad of weather teams that reside in Mono: It can revenge cripple Sand Rush Excadrill/Swift Swim Mega Swampert, switch in on attempted Aurora Veils, dispatch Rock teams who appreciate the SpDef boost Sand provides, and even go toe-to-toe with weather sweepers due to its water, fire and grass resistances.
That's still not all Drampa has to offer. While speed control with Glare/Tailwind can prove invaluable for the myriad of slower sweepers on Mono Normal teams, such as Diggersby or Porygon-Z, Mist can prevent the latter from having its Z-Conversion removed. Speaking of Porygon-Z, did you know Drampa is tied with fellow Mono Normal picks Porygon-Z and Mega Pidgeot for the highest Special Attack among Normal types? This means Drampa can fill an offensive niche and a supportive one at the same time, and its moveset and ability variety allow it a measure of unpredictability that most Mono normal teams lack.
Now I'll be fully honest and admit to some of Drampa's faults. It's not exactly sporting a defensive typing or stellar defensive stats, and abysmal speed means it's liable to getting OHKOd by boosted attackers before you can even make use of its vast utility. Safe switching and caution is key, but I do believe if Heliolisk can be D-Tier than the Placid Dragon more than deserves a shot. It has significantly more offensive and supportive utility than Helio and also
Hi, Drampa might look good on paper with its high Special Attack stat, good movepool, ok abilities and utility moves, but its really bad in actual battle. It has no place on balance Normal. This is because Porygon-Z and Meloetta are both better Special wallbreakers and have better Speed tiers that make them a lot more usable in the long run as Drampa will almost always take an attack before attacking because of its bad Speed stat. Furthermore, Porygon-Z helps more in Dragon, Ground- and Flying-type matchups because of its great Speed and able to omniboost. There is also Ditto for Dragon-types that can easily take care of Dragon-types bar Mega Latias or opposite happiness of Mega Altaria. Now about Drampa's abilities, while it might look appealing to use Sap Sipper for Grass-type attacks, Both Mega Pidgeot and Staraptor alongside the bulky Porygon2 helps greatly with Grass-types like Mega Venusaur and Serperior while Porygon2 can deal with Celesteela and Ferrothorn. Its other ability, Cloud Nine, is not that great either because weather in Monotype is getting rare as sandless Ground is getting more and more common, and Water sometimes uses Rain balance, but that is not common either. Even without weather both Mega Swampert and Excadrill can outpace it and 2KO it so getting rid of weather is not gonna help too much. Heliolisk is D-rank solely for dealing with Suicune, a big threat to Balance Normal that can auto-win against the team unless you use either CM sub Psyshock Meloetta (very niche and bad when Choice Specs is so much better) or Heliolisk because of its Dry Skin + able to run both Grass Knot and Thunderbolt. Drampa does not have a niche on Normal as it cannot bring anything to the table that other rank Pokemon can do better. Drampa should stay unranked.
Now for Dugtrio going down to C / D Rank I agree with. With the meta changes, Dugtrio lost its niche to take care of Tapu Bulu and trapping one the the bulky duo in Normal which is now done better by Mega Steelix. Do not really have much to add as everything has been covered in a post eariler about this Pokemon.
Salazzle has proven itself to be an amazing utility and stall mon for Poison and is the types single handed best answer to both Steel and the dreaded Poison mirror matchups, it also is one of the types best answers to balance teams in general with its ability to toxic nearly anything and stall it out with a SubTect set.
Steel: Salazzle's unique Poison/Fire typing brings amazing offensive threats to Steel teams and under normal circumstances cannot get around Heatran until you take its unique ability Corrosion into account, allowing it to toxic Heatran and slowly whittle it down in the following set:
The Sass (Salazzle) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Corrosion
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Protect
- Substitute
- Toxic
This set allows Salazzle to stall out answers for Steel in Heatran and Sp.Def Celesteela while a STAB Flamethrower uninvested blows through most of the rest of Steel teams. Excadrill is protect scouted since its almost always scarf locked and switched on accordingly and M-Scizor doesnt even OHKO it with a +2 Bullet Punch after rocks.
+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 181-213 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Poison mirror: This part is really self-explanitory, as this is the equivalent of M-Altaria in the Dragon Mirror: The one who gets it off first generally wins. Salazzle's Corrosion allows it to Toxic the opposing Poison teams defensive core and give a massive advantage where the matchup normally would take FOREVER due to needing to whittle down with Toxapex scald burns and rocks etc.
Summary: Salazzle is long overdue for its bump up to A rank and its current usage (#7) shows that it is a valuable member of any Poison team.
I think while you bring up good points, it is hard to justify to bump this up to A rank because of the current A ranks being near irreplaceable on Poison. Running Salazzle usually means not running Nidoking or Nihilego, which hurts a lot in other matchups such as Ground, Electric and Flying. While running Salazzle does indeed improve both the Poison mirror and Steel matchup, it has the same problems the other B-rank mons have. Lets look at Gengar for example. People run this in order to help with the Psychic and the Dragon matchup because of its Ghost STAB and has Dazzling Gleam to take on Dragon-types like Kommo-o and Dragonite after Stealth Rock. However, running Gengar means folding the Flying or Steel matchup because of not having Nihilego that has usually a combination of Power Gem, Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Ice or Nidoking that can threaten Steel and Electric-types thanks to Earth Power and Flamethrower. To me Salazzle should stay B rank because it has the same flaws as the other B ranks which are Gengar, Nidoqueen and Scolipede.Salazzle: B --> A Rank (Poison)
Salazzle has proven itself to be an amazing utility and stall mon for Poison and is the types single handed best answer to both Steel and the dreaded Poison mirror matchups, it also is one of the types best answers to balance teams in general with its ability to toxic nearly anything and stall it out with a SubTect set.
Steel: Salazzle's unique Poison/Fire typing brings amazing offensive threats to Steel teams and under normal circumstances cannot get around Heatran until you take its unique ability Corrosion into account, allowing it to toxic Heatran and slowly whittle it down in the following set:
The Sass (Salazzle) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Corrosion
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Protect
- Substitute
- Toxic
This set allows Salazzle to stall out answers for Steel in Heatran and Sp.Def Celesteela while a STAB Flamethrower uninvested blows through most of the rest of Steel teams. Excadrill is protect scouted since its almost always scarf locked and switched on accordingly and M-Scizor doesnt even OHKO it with a +2 Bullet Punch after rocks.
+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 181-213 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Poison mirror: This part is really self-explanitory, as this is the equivalent of M-Altaria in the Dragon Mirror: The one who gets it off first generally wins. Salazzle's Corrosion allows it to Toxic the opposing Poison teams defensive core and give a massive advantage where the matchup normally would take FOREVER due to needing to whittle down with Toxapex scald burns and rocks etc.
Summary: Salazzle is long overdue for its bump up to A rank and its current usage (#7) shows that it is a valuable member of any Poison team.
I've been running Salazzle over Nidoking for quite a while now and I can safely say I do not miss Nidoking at all. While its nice to have Nidoking as a rocker, not only does it have a bad speed tier for being a rocker it is also not bulky in the slightest. You can run sash Nidoking but now you give up the Sheer Force+LO combo that makes Nidoking so efficient. Nidoking also serves the same purpose as Salazzle regarding Steel teams but in a more aggressive fashion. Nihilego serves immense pressure Vs Flying and can even be a rocker itself since its coverage can almost always bring in a Celesteela switch, which gets rocks down vs flying. This serves as role compression for the type so Nidoking is not needed as the teams rocker and is just a generic special attacker which Nihilego also does just as well vs Flying with a more varied Item choice than Nidoking (Scarf/Metronome). Ground is based around Venusaur-M and Crobat, Salazzle is most likely going to be a sac or it will be threatening M-Steelix vs Sandless Ground teams. Electric is barely a threat so I have no actual clue what you're talking about regarding needing Nidoking as an extra electric immunity when Muk-A and Venusaur-M both destroy electric in majority of cases, Nidoking is just insult to injury.
You seem to be missing the point I made. Nidoking makes 50/50s for the Steel matchup while running Stealth Rocks Nidoking which frees up a move slot on Nihilego so it can run extra coverage which would be either Sludge Wave or Grass Knot. Another point is that Nidoking OHKO Heatran on a switch once Air Balloon is popped while Salazzle will get worn down by hazards and outpaced by z happy hour jirachi and Choice Scarf ExcadrilI, which Salazzle cannot KO even if it Flamethrower on the predicted switch to these unlike Nidoking which can OHKO both without risking getting swept by the both of them. I am questioning your metagame knowledge because Metronome is not a set of Nihilego nor is Focus Sash Nidoking. if anything Nihilego would be running cool Electric Z set that has seen use in tours that is eved to get a Speed Boost every time a Pokemon dies which greatly helps the Flying matchup as Gliscor gets annoying. Plus Choice Scarf Nihilego vs bulk Flying is easy to take care as Gliscor, Celesteela and Mantine can come in to take most of Nihilego's attacks or when it is locked into Stealth Rock while slowly wearing it down with setting Flying setting down their own Stealth Rock / Leech Seed. Another flaw in your point is vs Mega Steelix, as it will always have Rest, so Toxic will not be able to stay and can easily pp stall out Salazzle since Mega Steelix can just click Rest till it wakes up and repeat the cycle again and again. Nidoking is also a lot better in this matchup as Earth Power helps with Mega Steelix and can threaten other Ground-types like Garchomp and Landorus. Mega Venusaur is easily taken care of by Mega Steelix and Steelium Z Excadrill after it Swords Dance once and Crobat is threaten by Mamoswine that makes 50/50s, if Mega Venusaur is too low to you kinda have to hope it does not Icicle Crash as it will make it unwinnable for Poison to win with Crobat dead. I said Electric in my first post because of newer sets like Fly Z Zeraoa and LO Raichu are being used which can sweep Poison if you are not careful, and it is easy to get them on the switch with Nidoking once Rotom-W is taken care of. This brings me back to what I said in my first post, Salazzle is really only good in mirrors and the Steel matchup, as it is Salazzles niche just like the other B ranks have the same flaw with only tilting one or two matchups into your favor.
tier
PUPL Champion
I largely agree, Salazzle serves to help in a otherwise quite difficult MU which is steel. The mon while being largely frail has multiple sets such as disable and the set shown above by a certain guy. If anything those claiming that nidoking is way more viable in the flying MU, well allow me to rephrase this persons argument "I am questioning your metagame knowledge ", players such as architect and killachetti have shown prowess with nihilego while not using nidoking while you make it out to be that nidoking is a sole winning factor, with chip and or the combo of tbolt/thunder and power gem as well as hp ice you prevent a mantine from switching in specifically if youre running something along the lines of specs. Further more metronome nihilego was used for a brief period of time in ladder. Salazzle can put a timer upon celesteela, a nihilego is able to 6-0 a flying team while nidoking very rarely can do so. Therefore saying something along the lines of using salazzle over nidoking means youre losing the flying MU is quite nonsensical as well as the fact salazzle can timer mons such as curse mega steelix and sure you said rest, again DISABLE or FLAMETHROWER or FIRE BLAST or HAZE TOXAPEX or LEECH SEEDING with venu for chip or disable a threatening banded excadrill if behind a substitute already. You if anything gain MUs rather than lose them that are in your favor you can check usage of metronome, highest nihi set in rock if its used in rock, it plausible to use it in poison. https://image.prntscr.com/image/JQgm40LmQQG8z8uGsa8oOw.pngSalazzle: B --> A Rank (Poison)
Salazzle has proven itself to be an amazing utility and stall mon for Poison and is the types single handed best answer to both Steel and the dreaded Poison mirror matchups, it also is one of the types best answers to balance teams in general with its ability to toxic nearly anything and stall it out with a SubTect set.
Steel: Salazzle's unique Poison/Fire typing brings amazing offensive threats to Steel teams and under normal circumstances cannot get around Heatran until you take its unique ability Corrosion into account, allowing it to toxic Heatran and slowly whittle it down in the following set:
The Sass (Salazzle) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Corrosion
Shiny: Yes
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Protect
- Substitute
- Toxic
This set allows Salazzle to stall out answers for Steel in Heatran and Sp.Def Celesteela while a STAB Flamethrower uninvested blows through most of the rest of Steel teams. Excadrill is protect scouted since its almost always scarf locked and switched on accordingly and M-Scizor doesnt even OHKO it with a +2 Bullet Punch after rocks.
+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 181-213 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Poison mirror: This part is really self-explanitory, as this is the equivalent of M-Altaria in the Dragon Mirror: The one who gets it off first generally wins. Salazzle's Corrosion allows it to Toxic the opposing Poison teams defensive core and give a massive advantage where the matchup normally would take FOREVER due to needing to whittle down with Toxapex scald burns and rocks etc.
Summary: Salazzle is long overdue for its bump up to A rank and its current usage (#7) shows that it is a valuable member of any Poison team.
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Nidoking makes 50/50's in a different way than Salazzle does. Nothing on Steel except Heatran wants to take the Flamethrower from Salazzle and Heatran gets hit with Toxic on the Switch in, putting their only fire immunity on a timer. This is a simple case of Hyper Offense Vs Stall. Nidoking destroys Steel with raw coverage and offensives, Salazzle picks at Steel's newfound weakness in Toxic+Fire STAB, something you couldn't do otherwise. I'm not trying to knock Nidoking's Viability, I accept it is A tier for many of the reasons you suggest. However I can point to Salazzle and say it performs a similar role against Steel and Poison mirrors that Nidoking does, both of which are extremely annoying matchups for Poison as a whole.
Secondly, since when does Nidoking beat Choice Scarf Excadrill besides a switch in? Since when does it beat Z Happy Hour Jirachi again, besides catching it on the switch in? Both Excadrill and Jirachi are faster than Nidoking and force it out due to being able to OHKO Nidoking anyhow. Salazzle Choice locks Excadrill with Substitute/Protect forcing the appropriate switch while Nidoking lacks the speed to do anything to either one unless you are running Scarf Nidoking, and this is assuming neither one has any form of speed control (and they both do.). In fact Jirachi can set up in Nidoking's face and live the Earth Power, while with rocks its a roll in Jirachi's Favor.
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 416-492 (137.2 - 162.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Jirachi Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 312-368 (102.9 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. +1 0 HP / 0- SpD Jirachi: 281-330 (82.4 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. +1 0 HP / 0- SpD Jirachi: 281-330 (82.4 - 96.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Nihilego being the carrier of Stealth Rocks for Poison isn't a problem if you opt for something like Metronome Nihilego, which can actually take on and whittle down things like Mantine after a few Power Gems, which it cannot outpace with Roost or Scald thanks to metronomes damage boosting effect over multiple uses and chipping Celesteela isnt strictly a hard thing to do with careful play. Gliscor barely takes HP Ice as it stands and 2-3 power gems are all you need to get it into KO range if you attempt to switch it into the attack. Even if you decide to throw Mantine away for a scald unless a burn occurs Dragonite cant even KO Nihilego.
Vs Mantine:
1. 176 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Mantine: 150-176 (40.1 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
2. 176 SpA Metronome Nihilego Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Mantine: 165-194 (44.1 - 51.8%) -- not a KO
3. 176 SpA Metronome Nihilego Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Mantine: 198-233 (52.9 - 62.2%) -- not a KO
4. 176 SpA Metronome Nihilego Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Mantine: 257-303 (68.7 - 81%) -- not a KO
5. 176 SpA Metronome Nihilego Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Mantine: 360-424 (96.2 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to 1HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Mantine Scald vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego: 116-138 (30.6 - 36.4%) -- 45.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Nihilego: 133-157 (35 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Vs Gliscor:
1. 176 SpA Nihilego Power Gem vs. 244 HP / 124 SpD Gliscor: 133-157 (37.7 - 44.6%) -- 32.6% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
2. 176 SpA Metronome Nihilego Power Gem vs. 244 HP / 124 SpD Gliscor: 146-173 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- not a KO
3. 176 SpA Metronome Nihilego Power Gem vs. 244 HP / 124 SpD Gliscor: 175-208 (49.7 - 59%) -- not a KO
4. 176 SpA Metronome Nihilego Power Gem vs. 244 HP / 124 SpD Gliscor: 227-270 (64.4 - 76.7%) -- not a KO
5. 176 SpA Metronome Nihilego Power Gem vs. 244 HP / 124 SpD Gliscor: 318-378 (90.3 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to 1HKO after Poison Heal
Regarding Ground: This matchup is risky for Poison no matter which one you want to put in your 6th slot, Nidoking or Salazzle. Nidoking can break M-Steelix instantly but everyone realizes that, and won't allow you to do that. You also risk a Resttalk Earthquake on the pivot if you try to get Nidoking in while its mid-Rest. Also, for the same reason mentioned regarding Excadrill and Jirachi, are you perhaps talking about Choice Scarf Nidoking? You keep mentioning things Nidoking "threatens" but actually doesnt because it is slower than both of them again. Garchomp (even mega) outspeeds and OHKO's Nidoking as does Landorus (Either Forme). Salazzle admittedly can struggle to beat M-steelix without mindgames of Sub/Toxic/Flamethrower: 0 SpA Salazzle Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix-Mega: 158-188 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 27.7% chance to 2HKO
but conversely M-steelix can also have bad RNG that is coupled with RestTalk sets, making it not use Earthquake when needed and allowing Salazzle to get behind a Substitute.
As for Electric: Fly-Z Zeraora is a 1 off move, If you predict it and let anything except Venusaur-M take it, you just got rid of Zeraora as a major threat.
+1 252 Atk Zeraora Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 314-370 (86.2 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO.
+1 252 Atk Zeraora Bounce vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
Raichu-Alola with Life Orb? Are we pretending this is "new"?? It's a sweeper, everyone and their mother has tried and used that item on Raichu-Alola at some point, and probably in most cases that was the first thing they tried. I'm sorry if this seems like an insult but I can't even take that suggestion seriously enough to form a rebuttal.
And lastly: Keep the "Tours" argument out of it, I care as much about the tours as most people do about ladder peaks at this point. It is nice to see people making new and creative sets to fight each other with but does not justify an argument in the long run. The Viability Rankings are designed for the public to learn what are good choices when designing a team, so saying something (Mon or Set) is justified solely because "it was in a tour" doesn't cut it. The public for the most part doesn't watch high level tours because they play for fun, and use this forum as a place to educate themselves to make more competitive but still fun teams.