Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

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pizzq

Banned deucer.
i just wanna bring up the fact that manaphy screens offense is ridiculously broken- heres a team

Azelf @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- Reflect
- Light Screen

Manaphy @ Waterium Z
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Rain Dance
- Surf
- Energy Ball

Garchomp @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Fire Fang
- Earthquake
- Outrage

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Pursuit
- Bullet Punch

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Waterfall
- Bounce

Pheromosa @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick
- Poison Jab
- Ice Beam

heres a replay of gyara http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-499081928
 
Tangrowth is basically 2 bans away from being an OU juggernaut once again. If Genesect and Pheromosa disappeared, this thing would be walling things like no tomorrow. Landoruses that don't have supersonic sky strike get walled out completely, same with tapu bulu, and Zygardes. Meanwhile, Giga Drain and HP Fire have just enough coverage for him not to be a push over, and Knock Off/Sleeping powder offer great support. It's already doing a ton of work down in the UU metagame for me.
 
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i just wanna bring up the fact that manaphy screens offense is ridiculously broken- heres a team

Azelf @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- Reflect
- Light Screen

Manaphy @ Waterium Z
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Rain Dance
- Surf
- Energy Ball

Garchomp @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Fire Fang
- Earthquake
- Outrage

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Pursuit
- Bullet Punch

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Waterfall
- Bounce

Pheromosa @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick
- Poison Jab
- Ice Beam

heres a replay of gyara http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-499081928
Anything with screens is potentially broken, thats not exclusive to Manaphy

also your better off using A.Ninetails with Aurora Veil, who can set them up in one turn.
 
So I am having a ton of fun with Scarf Thundurus-Therian. Volt Absorb is great this gen with the abundance of Tapu Kokos. It's a top-notch Electric type with 140 special attack, being faster than Koko with Scarf, and having a Ground immunity.

However, the best part is its coverage behind 140 special attack. HP Ice has been dropping every Lando-T that I have seen, let alone Garchomps and Zygardes. Then, you can either run Sludge Wave to devastate the Tapus (notably Koko and Bulu), or Dark Pulse to surprise the abundance of Alolan-Marowaks running around that would normally wall it.

With its speed and power, Scarf Thundy-Therian is a phenomenal revenge killer and win-con. However, with the right coverage, it is a perfect lead. Either outspeeding and getting momentum with Volt, or bopping the opposing Electric immunity/resist, Thundy almost always gets you a good jump on the opponent from turn 1.

Scarf Thundurus-Therian is easily my favorite Electric type right now.
 

pizzq

Banned deucer.
Anything with screens is potentially broken, thats not exclusive to Manaphy

also your better off using A.Ninetails with Aurora Veil, who can set them up in one turn.
manaphy also excels under screens because of its set up capability. whats another mon with tg+boost speed

thats why its good on screens

ninetales is not good bc you have a garbage type, no sr, and no boom
 
manaphy also excels under screens because of its set up capability. whats another mon with tg+boost speed

thats why its good on screens

ninetales is not good bc you have a garbage type, no sr, and no boom
even when you consider tail glows limited distribution, z hypnosis TG xurkitree comes to mind. pretty much any strong sweeper can cause problems when given dual screens and sr and it isn't ring phazed. giving 2 free turns to something like char x or double dance lando would also result in you getting swept.
 

pizzq

Banned deucer.
even when you consider tail glows limited distribution, z hypnosis TG xurkitree comes to mind. pretty much any strong sweeper can cause problems when given dual screens and sr and it isn't ring phazed. giving 2 free turns to something like char x or double dance lando would also result in you getting swept.
yeah but unlike xurk
manaphy actually outspeeds phero with +1 speed
and also gets the rain boost + scald
plus hydration
also to top it off manaphys coverage isnt pure dog

and unlike zardx
manaphy does not take a mega slot
or is weak to rocks
and you dont need to support it with something other than screen (defog, spin)

and unlike dd landot
manaphy isnt ass
manaphy isnt walled by celesteela
manaphy isnt forced to use ass moves like smack down to beat said celesteela

overall if you even consider using xurk>mana you have problems
zardx isnt even remotely close to fulfilling the same role
dd landot is bad

manaphy has been considered broken in the past and this gen made it 10324798678923% better and nothing comes even close to being as prominent as a sweeper under screens as manaphy can be to every single playstyle. i dont want it banned but its kinda obvious its the single best sweeper under screens in the meta.
 
yeah but unlike xurk
manaphy actually outspeeds phero with +1 speed
and also gets the rain boost + scald
plus hydration
also to top it off manaphys coverage isnt pure dog

and unlike zardx
manaphy does not take a mega slot
or is weak to rocks
and you dont need to support it with something other than screen (defog, spin)

and unlike dd landot
manaphy isnt ass
manaphy isnt walled by celesteela
manaphy isnt forced to use ass moves like smack down to beat said celesteela

overall if you even consider using xurk>mana you have problems
zardx isnt even remotely close to fulfilling the same role
dd landot is bad

manaphy has been considered broken in the past and this gen made it 10324798678923% better and nothing comes even close to being as prominent as a sweeper under screens as manaphy can be to every single playstyle. i dont want it banned but its kinda obvious its the single best sweeper under screens in the meta.
i wasn't denying that manaphy is good, but literally any sweeper is good with screens and two fucking turns if set up. and to be fair, bolt beam with hp ice is just as good as anything manaphy gets, as it doesn't really appreciate being forced to choose between energy ball/ice beam/psychic. also, hydration is only an ok ability anyway?? sure those sweepers i listed aren't the exact same as manaphy, but they all wreak havoc after 2 turns of setup. you could also try volc or kartana or pory z or literally anything that gets a boosting move.
 
I have to give the Smogon folks credit for getting it right in terms of getting rid of Lando over some of the other stuff, as that ban alone has done a lot to help out more defensive teams. Going through the rest of the stuff people have been talking about banning:
Genesect: Please get rid of this thing. It does the same thing as always and if you guess its set wrong something dies. Nothing's really changed to make it worth keeping.
Tapu Lele: Still obnoxious and forces you to pack a check, but feels more manageable now. Its best checks tend to be weak to Duggy/Magnezone, so it might wind up being banned eventually, but for now I don't think it's a priority
Greninja: Both Battle Bond and Protean are really good, and the one turn it takes to find out which one it is is pretty scary. Too versatile to stay.
Hoopa-U: something something no switch-ins
Pheromosa: Crazy good lategame cleaner. Its main problem is a lack of versatility, but even so it's pretty incredible. Genesect is right now the more versatile alternative, I'd want to see how the meta copes with it without Gene.
 
i wasn't denying that manaphy is good, but literally any sweeper is good with screens and two fucking turns if set up. and to be fair, bolt beam with hp ice is just as good as anything manaphy gets, as it doesn't really appreciate being forced to choose between energy ball/ice beam/psychic. also, hydration is only an ok ability anyway?? sure those sweepers i listed aren't the exact same as manaphy, but they all wreak havoc after 2 turns of setup. you could also try volc or kartana or pory z or literally anything that gets a boosting move.
first, hydration is good, not an "ok ability." let me explain to you what z-mana does cuz u really missin the point

scenario 1: playing offense
say i'm running tapu koko and that's my check to manaphy. i could come in and revenge kill but then you realize manaphy used z-rain dance so it now outspeeds and can kill because stealth rock is up. what now? i have to go into something that can tank a hit, but can't ko back meaning manaphy can click tail glow which puts it at +3/+1

scenario 2: balance
tail glow up and depending on your two moves, you will have matchup or manaphy will be decent. for example, non psychic will lose to mantine and tapu bulu and non eball will be hazed by fini and dealt with by rotom-w. this is manaphy's worst matchup and it can still put in work despite it being its worst matchup.

scenario 3: stall
manaphy still slays this, but now you have hydro vortex lol

obviously, all of these scenarios (except the stall one) are in a vacuum but remember manaphy is going to have support in hazards or pursuit. overall, waterium z honestly turned manaphy into one of the only pokemon that can destroy stall while not forfeiting its matchup against offense. it's just that good.
 
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first, hydration is good, not an "ok ability." let me explain to you what z-mana does cuz u really missin the point

scenario 1: playing offense
say i'm running tapu koko and that's my check to manaphy. i could come in a revenge kill but then you realize manaphy used z-rain dance so it now outspeeds and can kill. what now? i have to go into something that can tank a hit, but can't ko back meaning manaphy can click tail glow which puts it at +3/+1

scenario 2: balance
tail glow up and depending on your two moves, you will have matchup or manaphy will be decent. for example, non psychic will lose to mantine and tapu bulu and non eball will be hazed by fini and toxapex. this is manaphy's worst matchup and it can still put in work despite it being its worst matchup.

scenario 3: stall
manaphy still slays this, but now you have hydro vortex lol

obviously, all of these scenarios (except the stall one) are in a vacuum but remember manaphy is goin to have support in hazards or pursuit. overall, waterium z honestly turned manaphy into one of the only pokemon that can destroy stall while not forfeiting its matchup against offense. it's just that good.
perhaps we should just realize tapu koko isn't a good check to manaphy then?? i'm not saying it's bad but literally anything will be good under dual screens. also: does +0 mana even kill koko?
 
perhaps we should just realize tapu koko isn't a good check to manaphy then?? i'm not saying it's bad but literally anything will be good under dual screens. also: does +0 mana even kill koko?
A +0 Surf easily OHKOes Tapu Koko under rain:

252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 234-276 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
thanks for calc, i'm on mobile. while i'm not saying mana isn't really good, i was merely trying to refute the argument that mana and screens is gonna dominate the meta bc 1. anything w screens sets up easy and 2. screens are hard to gain
 
perhaps we should just realize tapu koko isn't a good check to manaphy then?? i'm not saying it's bad but literally anything will be good under dual screens. also: does +0 mana even kill koko?
The point is that manaphy is ridiculously hard to stop anyway, screens just make it harder by a lot and since you won't have multiple answers either you sac a lot or lose and answers, and also the game.

The argument that any setup mon under screens is the same as mana is absolutely fucking stupid for a few reasons, namely waterium z and and automatic special attack boost to 750, which no other mon can do as well as manaphy, which already sports really good bulk.
 

November Blue

A universe where hot chips don't exist :(
is a Contributor Alumnus
I've had a surprising amount of success with Scarf Zygarde 50%.


Zygarde @ Choice Scarf
Jolly
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
- Thousand Arrows
- Outrage
- Extremespeed
- Sludge Wave

I often find that people are only running enough Speed on their boosters/scarfers to outpace Pheromosa, so this outspeeds everything. It's a great check to Autotomize Celesteela, Mega Metagross, Adamant Zard X, Jolly Mega Gyarados, Tapu Koko, Genesect, Tapu Lele etc. The surprise factor helps, but it has so much utility beside that. Thousand Arrows just suffocates the opposing team, especially when you're faster than everything.

I was originally using HP Ice for Landorus-T, but it really doesn't need it. Zygarde outspeeds and 3shots most of them, and Lando can't do a damn thing back (defensive Lando seems kinda rare nowadays). Tapu Bulu is 2shot by Sludge Wave where it would otherwise switch in for free. Outrage is the only move that will oneshot Pheromosa, so it's risky to revenge it if there are Fairies on the opposing team. There's no point running any coverage for it, as Zen headbutt and HP Flying are the only things that cleanly oneshot it. Extremespeed 2shots while circumventing any +Speed Beast Boosts, and Thousand Arrows 2shots with Rocks anyway.

Edit: Fixed the HP Poison derp. Thanks Monkey Smurf!
 
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So I took my no items team into the Battle of Alola and actually won a couple matches. Ash-Greninja was used for what I said I was using him for - mainly a glass cannon/poor man's Pheromosa. I've also got Earthquake on Lucario to cover Tapu Koko usually being out first. I'll post my full team when I get a chance.

With the 50 BP I get for entering I finally get to acquire my second mega stone and I'm trying to choose between Lucarionite and Salamencite but leaning towards Lucarionite since I'm having trouble getting any normal type moves on Salamence other than Headbutt. Which of the two runs their mega stone better as opposed to life orb?

(I know this is technically in-game but I think it has competitive merit - have mercy on this n00b lol)
 
I've had a surprising amount of success with Scarf Zygarde 50%.


Zygarde @ Choice Scarf
Jolly
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
- Thousand Arrows
- Outrage
- Extremespeed
- Hidden Power Poison

I often find that people are only running enough Speed on their boosters/scarfers to outpace Pheromosa, so this outspeeds everything. It's a great check to Autotomize Celesteela, Mega Metagross, Adamant Zard X, Jolly Mega Gyarados, Tapu Koko, Genesect, Tapu Lele etc. The surprise factor helps, but it has so much utility beside that. Thousand Arrows just suffocates the opposing team, especially when you're faster than everything.

I was originally using HP Ice for Landorus-T, but it really doesn't need it. Zygarde outspeeds and 3shots most of them, and Lando can't do a damn thing back (defensive Lando seems kinda rare nowadays). Tapu Bulu takes 44% on average from HP Poison where it would otherwise switch in for free. Outrage is the only move that will oneshot Pheromosa, so it's risky to revenge it if there are Fairies on the opposing team. There's no point running any coverage for it, as Zen headbutt and HP Flying are the only things that cleanly oneshot it. Extremespeed 2shots while circumventing any +Speed Beast Boosts, and Thousand Arrows 2shots with Rocks anyway.
Why not run Sludge Wave over Hidden Power Poison? It's functionally the same, but with 95 BP instead of 60, which means it will always score a 2HKO instead of a 3HKO.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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I really dislike not set up Zygarde, it's just so damn weak. Thousand Arrows having very little switch-ins doesn't really matter when it's coming off of something with base 100 Attack, especially when compared to much stronger revenge killers such as Garchomp and Landorus-T. Speaking of Garchomp, it's easily the best Scarfer in the tier atm besides Pheromosa, and it still can run moves like Fire Blast to hit Steel-types like Ferrothorn as well as Bulu. Everything that Zygarde revenge kills Chomper can too, besides Autotomize Celesteela which is very rare at least the more you go up on the ladder. Adamant Zard-X is a bad set and everyone should be running Jolly. I don't really see how Zygarde can revenge Tapu Lele when Thousand Arrows isn't doing anywhere near enough to OHKO it, and a Specs Moonblast/Psychic is going to destroy it, and Scarf is at least doing enough to you that the exchange isn't really worth it. You're also forcing a tie with Scarf Lele, which isn't worth it at all. I mean just look at these differences in damage outputs;

252 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 174-206 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 230-272 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 248-294 (82.3 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You're trading a massive amount of power for the ability to spam Thousand Arrows, but it's honestly not really worth it. The whole appeal of Chomper and Landorus-T is that they are strong as fuck and can revenge kill so many Pokemon, but Zygarde is so weak that it's just really not that worth it. Compare it to Zygarde 10% which can spam Thousand Arrows easily with a Choice Band because it can 2HKO so many Pokemon, and on top of that you still have E-Speed to pick of weakened sweepers and revenge kill Pheromosa and friends. Scarf E-Speed just seems pointless on a Pokemon that is already weak and can outspeed most of the metagame anyway outside of Scarf Phero but you're only doing this

252 Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 156-184 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But yeah, I think you're really doing yourself a disfavor using Scarf Zygarde when you have much better options such as the stronger and faster Garchomp, or Landorus-T which has access to U-turn and Intimidate, giving it great utility. Zygarde is best suited as a fat sweeper, not a revenge killer. Scarf Zygarde is terrible lol.
 

MANNAT

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Hey guys, I just wanted to drop in and talk about some really cool mons that I've been using that I think need to get talked about more.


Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 56 Atk / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Extrasensory
- Gunk Shot
- Hydro Pump/Ice Beam
- Spikes/Dark Pulse

With the recent influx of popularity of Ash-Greninja (rightfully so), Protean Greninja has had some of the spotlight taken away from it. However, Protean Greninja thing's still an absolute headache to deal with, being able to dismantle common cores with ease. I decided to choose Extrasensory as a coverage move since Mega Venusaur is so good right now coupled with the influx of Toxapex usage as well as being able to take on Fighting-types like Buzzwole. Gunk Shot was chosen next for its ability to take down Fairies like Tapu Fini and Tapu Bulu that would otherwise give this hit a huge headache. Hydro Pump rounds out the coverage, taking down Ground-types like Landorus-T that are otherwise annoying to deal with while also making this set not a sitting duck vs Mega Metagross and Heatran aside from being a strong af move that you can spam a lot of the time. At the end of the set, Spikes is really cool to use on forced switches so your opponent's Greninja checks get worn down quite a bit faster, and can really help with whittling the opposing team for a sweeper in the back like Porygon Z, not to mention it's hilarious to use Spikes and wall Electric-types with a Greninja lol. If you don't wanna run Spikes, you can also run Ice Beam/Dark Pulse in the last two moveslots to hit stuff like Garchomp and Mega Metagross a bit harder that Hydro was for, but Spikes is such a good move that I really dislike passing it up. If you were wondering what the EV spread was for, it's meant to OHKO Tapu Fini after Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes because I like making arbitrary EV spreads, and having a bit more power behind Gunk Shot is actually pretty important because it's your main tool to take on the Lati Twins among other Pokemon. Overall Protean Greninja is an absolute menace to face and an excellent offensive Pokemon that I highly recommend that you go out there and use.

charizard.gif
Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- Thunder Punch

Mega Charizard X is another very underrated threat in the current metagame that needs more attention paid to it. Offensive Dragon Dance is an absolute bitch for any team that doesn't have something like Hippowdon or Quagsire to consistently come in and deal with it. Dragon Dance is obviously a setup move that can allow you to blast your way past offensive and defensive teams alike, Flare Blitz is your strongest STAB move and hits insanely hard, factoring tough claws into account, and Dragon Claw is your other STAB move and has amazing coverage with Flare Blitz, being able to hit many Fire-type resists such as Latios and Zygarde. With the first three moves out of the way, it's time to cover the one that may have some of you scratching your heads in Thunder Punch. This generation, we got a ton of bulky waters to use in OU for various reasons, the main ones being; Tapu Fini, Toxapex, Mantine, and Pelipper with our older friends like Slowbro returning to make Mega Charizard X's job harder. This coupled with the fact that Tyranitar usage has been quite low at the start of this generation is more than enough reasoning to run Thunder Punch over Earthquake on this moveset. If you wanna run Roost, I recommend using the bulky set from last gen that a lot of people were using to set up on stuff like Rotom-W a bit easier, otherwise run this set. Wrapping this up, Mega Charizard X is an absolute bitch to deal with and can clean through a lot of teams with relative ease, considering that it can bust through 95% of the metagame at +1 with this set.

pz.gif
Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Thunderbolt
- Conversion

When I first heard about Z conversion, I thought that Porygon Z was just gonna be a shitty gimmick, but boy was I wrong. Z conversion Ghost P-Z is easily the best and most effective set on it since it can clean house so easily late game that it's pretty fun to use. Ghost-type is an amazing typing for a late game cleaner of this sort because it leaves P-Z immune to two of the best priority moves in the game in Mach Punch and Extreme Speed, making it significantly harder to revenge kill. Not only that, but Scarf Pheromosa can't revenge it because of its resistance to both U-turn and Poison Jab in conjunction with its immunity to High Jump Kick. Additionally, Z Electric loses to Scarf Lando-T, which this set does not do as it has a neutrality to Earthquake coupled with the fact that Knock Off is only 65 BP vs it by virtue of the Z Crystal. Offensively, Ghost is an absolutely stupid typing to deal with, considering that every Dark-type in the tier can be dispatched by Hidden Power Fighting bar Mega Gyarados, which loses to Thunderbolt. Shadow Ball boosted by Adaptability and a Modest Nature hits insanely hard at +1 and it impossible to wall without a resistance or immunity to it of some sort. Hidden Power Fighting is the primary coverage move on this moveset, OHKOing pesky Dark-types like Tyranitar, Weavile, etc. that might ruin your day otherwise. Thunderbolt is the last attacking move here, rounding out the offensive blitzkrieg of power by being able to dispatch of the aforementioned Mega Gyarados as well as some specially defensive Steel-types, primarily Celesteela. Conversion is obviously the last move and the crux of this set, being able to give P-Z +1 to all of its stats, transforming it into a threatening sweeper that also has impressive bulk. Obviously it is hard to find good setup opportunities with this set, but there most certainly are occasions where you can set up, and when you do it becomes very easy to clean up games with this.

There's a lot of other stuff I've been using, but those are just 3 that I wanted to shine a spotlight on, and I recommend that you guys go out there and use them. Thanks for reading and have a wonderful day n_n
 
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Hey guys, I just wanted to drop in and talk about some really cool mons that I've been using that I think need to get talked about more.


Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 56 Atk / 200 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Extrasensory
- Gunk Shot
- Hydro Pump/Ice Beam
- Spikes/Dark Pulse

With the recent influx of popularity of Ash-Greninja (rightfully so), Protean Greninja has had some of the spotlight taken away from it. However, Protean Greninja thing's still an absolute headache to deal with, being able to dismantle common cores with ease. I decided to choose Extrasensory as a coverage move since Mega Venusaur is so good right now coupled with the influx of Toxapex usage as well as being able to take on Fighting-types like Buzzwole. Gunk Shot was chosen next for its ability to take down Fairies like Tapu Fini and Tapu Bulu that would otherwise give this hit a huge headache. Hydro Pump rounds out the coverage, taking down Ground-types like Landorus-T that are otherwise annoying to deal with while also making this set not a sitting duck vs Mega Metagross and Heatran aside from being a strong af move that you can spam a lot of the time. At the end of the set, Spikes is really cool to use on forced switches so your opponent's Greninja checks get worn down quite a bit faster, and can really help with whittling the opposing team for a sweeper in the back like Porygon Z, not to mention it's hilarious to use Spikes and wall Electric-types with a Greninja lol. If you don't wanna run Spikes, you can also run Ice Beam/Dark Pulse in the last two moveslots to hit stuff like Garchomp and Mega Metagross a bit harder that Hydro was for, but Spikes is such a good move that I really dislike passing it up. If you were wondering what the EV spread was for, it's meant to OHKO Tapu Fini after Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes because I like making arbitrary EV spreads, and having a bit more power behind Gunk Shot is actually pretty important because it's your main tool to take on the Lati Twins among other Pokemon. Overall Protean Greninja is an absolute menace to face and an excellent offensive Pokemon that I highly recommend that you go out there and use.
What are some good greninja cores or pokemon that benefit from that set? I'm making a bulky offense using scizor,lando-t,and decidueye to defog, all 3 having u-turn. I'm at a loss for my last 2 pokemon. I'm thinking a wallbreaker or 2 to fill it out?
 

MANNAT

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What are some good greninja cores or pokemon that benefit from that set? I'm making a bulky offense using scizor,lando-t,and decidueye to defog, all 3 having u-turn. I'm at a loss for my last 2 pokemon. I'm thinking a wallbreaker or 2 to fill it out?
1. don't use decidueye
2. spikes+defog in general is pretty mediocre
3. rotomw+rocks landot+msciz is a good basis to go off of in conjunction with gren and allows you to run IB>Hydro since you have both gross and tran covered fairly well and you can round out the team with a scarfer like lele and some mons to plug in to deal with defensive issues, one of the most glaring ones probably being Tapu Koko at that point.
 
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