Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

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I think this attitude is obnoxious, unhelpful, ignorant, and frankly, fucking ridiculous (not just you, and you may have meant nothing, so I mean no offense to you...). I'm with Levi here. There is no "goofing". This attitude is only possible if you completely misunderstand what the philosophy was for banning a Pokemon. We collectively decided that it was not broken. The arguments that it were failed miserably under any half-decent scrutiny and thus it was decided that we keep it in.
offense kinda taken still :(
 

Rowan

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1) Anyone saying it's too late to change anything now because 2 games have been announced is stupid, and shouldn't be used as a reason.

2) A response to Heysup: You say that whether Diglett is broken or not shouldn't be the discussion because (a majority of us) already deemed it not broken. I strongly disagree with you. We should still discuss whether Diglett is broken or not, as the metagame has shifted despite there not actually being a change. Different threats rising in popularity has a great effect on the game, and that could be a cause for a pokemon which wasn't broken in some people's eyes to be broken now. Therefore, it's important that the brokenness of Diglett should be discussed. I agree with you on the fact that we should look at the limiting/annoying reasons as well and consider whether they are reasons to ban.

3) A request to Quote and macle: If we have a Diglett test, can we get a Diglett-less ladder? Because many arguments based on Diglett are very hypothetical (e.g. Drifloon would not be broken without Diglett, if Diglett was banned the metagame would be less limiting, the metagame would be better). We don't actually know any of these things, and a metagame without Diglett might be fucking terrible and everyone might hate it. There have been more hypothetical arguments based on Diglett than any other suspect we've had, and the opinions are more 50/50 than any other suspect, therefore I think it deserves special treatment and we should give ourselves a trial-run in the hypothetical metagame.
 

Camden

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3) A request to Quote and macle: If we have a Diglett test, can we get a Diglett-less ladder? Because many arguments based on Diglett are very hypothetical (e.g. Drifloon would not be broken without Diglett, if Diglett was banned the metagame would be less limiting, the metagame would be better). We don't actually know any of these things, and a metagame without Diglett might be fucking terrible and everyone might hate it. There have been more hypothetical arguments based on Diglett than any other suspect we've had, and the opinions are more 50/50 than any other suspect, therefore I think it deserves special treatment and we should give ourselves a trial-run in the hypothetical metagame.
macle and I already decided that Diglett would be banned for its suspect.
 
2) A response to Heysup: You say that whether Diglett is broken or not shouldn't be the discussion because (a majority of us) already deemed it not broken. I strongly disagree with you. We should still discuss whether Diglett is broken or not, as the metagame has shifted despite there not actually being a change. Different threats rising in popularity has a great effect on the game, and that could be a cause for a pokemon which wasn't broken in some people's eyes to be broken now. Therefore, it's important that the brokenness of Diglett should be discussed. I agree with you on the fact that we should look at the limiting/annoying reasons as well and consider whether they are reasons to ban.
With as much respect as I can give, I have to completely disagree and I think I'm coming from a much more....."active"....role in both the ladder and tournaments.

The metagame has not shifted. There are new prominent threats that are coming to light, but to say that Diglett's impact on the metagame is sufficiently altered is not true. It still does the same thing to the same Pokemon - it forces Pony to occasionally run Flame Charge or Chinchou to be used as scarf, but in general, there has been barely any significant shifts, most notably, with respect to anything that is relevant to the Diglett arguments.

I think you're misunderstanding why I'm saying this in the first place. It's not a "we can't talk about it again because I don't want to ban diglett" . It's more advising the pro-ban people, which may include me this time (I'm not sure). If you make the same arguments with the same standard in the same situation, I would suggest that it would be unlikely to get a different outcome.

I think a better tactic is to argue that the standard for banning was too high. That is something that can change, unlike the arguments and responses to Diglett's "brokeness" arguments. Even if they were slightly changed (which i disagree with), it's still easy to refute them in the same way.

3) A request to Quote and macle: If we have a Diglett test, can we get a Diglett-less ladder? Because many arguments based on Diglett are very hypothetical (e.g. Drifloon would not be broken without Diglett, if Diglett was banned the metagame would be less limiting, the metagame would be better). We don't actually know any of these things, and a metagame without Diglett might be fucking terrible and everyone might hate it. There have been more hypothetical arguments based on Diglett than any other suspect we've had, and the opinions are more 50/50 than any other suspect, therefore I think it deserves special treatment and we should give ourselves a trial-run in the hypothetical metagame.
In DPP UU we actually started doing this. However, we stopped because it actually motivated people to vote based on other things besides whether they thought the Pokemon was broken or not. Some of these other factors could be considered valid if we were to say we want to ban Diglett because it's just "annoying". However, the strongest bias for people in my opinion was which metagame they were actually better at was the one they wanted to be the official metagame and I think that's still a frowned upon attitude.
 
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Corporal Levi

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SLOWFOO and why you should use it​


If you've played LC before, you've probably seen this:

Chances are, the majority of the Mienfoos you've seen were of the 17 Speed variant.
The other day, an LC player on PS said, "Slow Mienfoo sucks". This got on my nerves because slow Mienfoo does not suck. Then I realized that his attitude is not uncommon - after all, fast Mienfoo is Mienfoo's most popular set, being the recommended set on the analysis, and as a result, a lot of newer LC players are not even aware that slow Mienfoo is a legitimate set. In this post, I will be attempting to bring attention to slowfoo and explain why it should be used more.

First of all, this is what I mean by fast Mienfoo:
Mienfoo @ Eviolite
Level: 5
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 196 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch / High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Taunt / High Jump Kick / Acrobatics / Stone Edge

This set hits a stat spread of 21/15/14/-/12/17.

And this is what I mean by slow Mienfoo:
Mienfoo @ Eviolite
Level: 5
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 156 HP / 196 Def / 116 SpD
Careful Nature
- Drain Punch / High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick / Acrobatics / Stone Edge / Poison Jab

This set hits a stat spread of 23/15/14/-/14/13. An alternative slowfoo spread is 236 HP / 196 Def / 36 Spe with an Adamant nature to hit 24/16/14/-/12/13, but I will primarily be referring to the 23/14/14 spread when addressing slowfoo. The Speed IVs are sometimes reduced to 29 to underspeed opposing slowfoo; the reasoning for this will be addressed later in the post.

From this point onwards, I will be referring to the first, slower set as 'goodfoo' because it's good, and to avoid confusion with the Baton Pass set (which has the same EV spread but plays very differently). I will be referring to the second set as 'kingmidasfoo' to avoid confusion with Choice Scarf and Life Orb Mienfoo.

Now, lettuce go back to the player who said rude things about goodfoo. When user: OP confronted this anti-goodfoo player on his statement, the player's response was that user OP had defeated a goodfoo in one of his SPL matches.
The anti-goodfoo player wasn't incorrect with his statement, so I researched the usages and win rates of Mienfoo's stats in SPL. These stats are as of the end of week 9.

goodfoo - 9-6
not goodfoo - 10-18

The not goodfoo category consists of:

kingmidasfoo - 8-16
Baton Pass - 1-1
Life Orb Reckless - 1-0
Offensive 14 Speed Eviolite (Heysup's webs foo) - 1-0
Choice Scarf - 0-1
Eject Button - 0-1

As you can see, goodfoo has one more win and ten less losses than kingmidasfoo. The SPL stats are clear in indicating which Mienfoo set is superior. How could this be?

1. Goodfoo is bulkier.

Two more HP and SpD points may not seem like much at first glance, but the effects are enormous. Numerous relevant OHKOs become 2HKOs and 2HKOs become 3HKOs because of a small increase in physical bulk and a medium increase in special bulk. Here are a few calcs involving some very important attacks on very important threats that Mienfoo will very often be dealing with, to demonstrate the difference between 21/14/12 and 23/14/14:

240 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 24-30 (114.2 - 142.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 30)
vs.
240 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)

+1 236+ SpA Porygon Psychic vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 22-26 (104.7 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26)
vs.
+1 236+ SpA Porygon Psychic vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22)

0- Atk Omanyte Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 156 HP / 196 Def Mienfoo: 2-3 (8.6 - 13%) -- possible 8HKO after Stealth Rock
(2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3)
196 SpA Omanyte Hydro Pump vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Mienfoo: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19)
vs.
0- Atk Omanyte Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Mienfoo: 2-3 (9.5 - 14.2%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock
(2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3)
196 SpA Omanyte Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Mienfoo: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22)

All of these Pokemon can counterlead against kingmidasfoo and beat it in one big hit (or two in hazard Omanyte's case). Not goodfoo, though. They're done for if they try to pull that on goodfoo.

236+ SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)
vs.
236+ SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 14-20 (60.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(14, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)
vs.
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 156 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)

These Pokemon can revenge-kill kingmidasfoo after the slightest bit of prior damage, but they're going to take a U-turn or High Jump Kick to the face if it turns out to be goodfoo.

+2 196+ SpA Omanyte Surf vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 21-25 (100 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25)
vs.
+2 196+ SpA Omanyte Surf vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22)

+1 196 Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 156 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22)
+1 196 Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22)

+1 156+ Atk Scraggy High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-21 (76.1 - 100%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)
vs.
+1 156+ Atk Scraggy High Jump Kick vs. 156 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-21 (69.5 - 91.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)

The increased bulk makes goodfoo a much better revenge-killer than kingmidasfoo as well.

0 SpA Foongus Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9)
0 SpA Foongus Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9)
vs.
0 SpA Foongus Sludge Bomb vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 7-9 (30.4 - 39.1%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
(7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 9)
0 SpA Foongus Giga Drain vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 6-7 (26 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
(6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7)

240+ SpA Analytic Magnemite Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 12-15 (57.1 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15)
vs.
240+ SpA Analytic Magnemite Volt Switch vs. 156 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
(9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)

Goodfoo is also better at pivoting into opposing pivots.

It should be kept in mind that these are not the only calcs where goodfoo fares significantly better than kingmidasfoo, only the arguably most important ones (or the ones I remembered make a difference off the top of my head, you decide). My point is that the difference in bulk is significant.

2. Goodfoo is slower.

17 Speed may be a nice speed tier for a bulky offensive Pokemon, but low Speed is a good thing for U-turns for the same reason why Togepi is considered a stronger Nasty Plot + Baton Pass user than Aipom. With a slow U-turn, goodfoo tanks the hit instead of the Pokemon it's U-turning to. This is great to get Pokemon that do not like taking hits into play, because goodfoo does not mind taking those hits thanks to its fantastic mixed bulk (see point 1) and Regenerator. As such, slowfoo is one of the best available partners for fellow pivots like Magnemite and Vullaby, which help to ensure the opponent is constantly behind when it comes to momentum; frail but powerful wallbreakers such as Abra and Gastly, which struggle to get into play but wreak havoc once they're on the field; and of course, potent trappers like Diglett and Gothita.

Kingmidasfoo is not nearly as good at this. Its high Speed, while useful in other scenarios, means that it will U-turn before many slower Pokemon such as Pawniard and Chinchou make their move, forcing the switch-in to absorb the hit. This is especially detrimental when facing a slower VoltTurner because the kingmidasfoo user will actually lose momentum from the exchange. Furthermore, kingmidasfoo struggles to U-turn out even against many faster threats which it can slowturn against due to its often underwhelming bulk, at least in comparison to goodfoo.

And here lies the reason why goodfoo sometimes chooses to run 12 Speed: it wants to 'outslow' threats sitting at the 13 Speed tier, which not only consists of opposing goodfoo, but some variants of Vullaby and Larvesta (although these often choose to run 12 Speed as well for the same reason). With that being said, I do not usually recommend going down to 11 Speed, because that leaves goodfoo unable to check 11 Speed Download Porygon.

3. Goodfoo is more resilient to trappers.

There's the calc I brought up earlier that shows which Mienfoo variant fares better against Gothita, of course, but it doesn't end there.

You know what Magnemite's Analytic Volt Switch into LO Diglett's Earthquake KOes from full health?
Kingmidasfoo.

You know what bulky Chinchou's Volt Switch into Focus Sash Diglett's Earthquake KOes from full health after Knock Off?
Kingmidasfoo.

You know what what a Mienfoo U-turn into LO Diglett KOes after Knock Off and a layer of Spikes?
Kingmidasfoo.

And you know what survives all of those?
Goodfoo!


Anyways, if what I had above was informative, you probably have some more questions. (If it wasn't, then you probably aren't part of this post's target audience, but hopefully it was okay to read anyways!)

How Can Goodfoo Be Real If Its Analysis Isn't Real?

The EV spread for slowfoo is mentioned in the Set Details of the Bulky Attacker set as an alternative EV spread. (156 HP / 116 Def / 196 SpD with an Impish nature and 156 HP / 196 Def / 116 SpD with a Careful nature give the same stats.) It is arguably not different enough from the listed set to warrant its own set analysis.

For a period of time before hazard Dwebble became popular, goodfoo was actually the 'standard' EV spread for Mienfoo.

Then what's the point of using kingmidasfoo?

Although I personally believe that goodfoo is more splashable than kingmidasfoo, the extra Speed does have its notable advantages.

Chief among them is the ability to outspeed Pawniard. Goodfoo can safely switch into Eviolite Pawniard once, but after it has been Knocked Off, it risks being outsped and 2HKOed by Iron Head. Kingmidasfoo does not have this issue because even without its Eviolite, it can come in on Iron Head and outspeed Pawniard to hit it with Drain Punch. Goodfoo is an unsafe switch-in for Life Orb Pawniard, which can 2HKO with Iron Head right off the bat. Kingmidasfoo can switch in safely once until it loses its Eviolite; afterwards, Iron Head + Sucker Punch KOes.
For this reason, if your team is otherwise extremely weak to Pawniard, kingmidasfoo is a good choice. However, sticking Hidden Power Fighting on a few things or simply running another Pawniard check will usually leave your team sturdy enough to be able to afford to run goodfoo. In addition, running Mienfoo as your sole Pawniard check is generally not a good idea due to the presence of the popular Gothita-Pawniard combination.

Another nice perk to hitting 17 Speed is being able to outspeed hazard Dwebble and Taunt it before it can react in a lead match-up. Dwebble may respond by using Knock Off to cripple Mienfoo, but this is worth it if your team is cannot afford to run hazard removal. Keep in mind that this should generally not be your only counter-measure against hazard stacking if your team is especially weak to hazards, as Dwebble can simply switch out and set hazards later. Taunt is similarly helpful for Onix and Surskit leads, but Mienfoo will have to rely on a Speed tie for these. This strategy is not effective for hazard Omanyte, which goodfoo has a better match-up against, because hazard Omanyte can KO kingmidasfoo with a combination of Knock Off and Hydro Pump.

A minor advantage for kingmidasfoo is being able to better utilize Acrobatics in Mienfoo mirror matches. Assuming the opposing Mienfoo also leads off with Knock Off, a combination of Knock Off + Acrobatics has a decent chance to KO goodfoo, and is guaranteed to KO kingmidasfoo. This should not be relied on against goodfoo, though, because there is still a reasonable chance for goodfoo to survive Acrobatics and OHKO in return with its own Acrobatics; if Drain Punch is run and the opponent does not have a Gothita, it is safer to use that first, because Mienfoo's Acrobatics does not OHKO kingmidasfoo from full health.
Acrobatics match-ups are one of the advantages of the 24/14/12 EV spread I mentioned earlier (among others, like better checking Zigzagoon).

Judging by the SPL statistics, is Choice Scarf Mienfoo a bad set? And is Life Orb Reckless Mienfoo broken?

I used the SPL usage statistics to counter the anti-goodfoo player's reasoning as to why goodfoo wasn't good, but it definitely isn't end-all proof for the effectiveness of each Mienfoo set. The sample size is quite small; 43 uses of Mienfoo certainly isn't indicative of the entire LC playerbase (and if it was, I wouldn't have felt the need to make this post, since there was quite a lot of goodfoo in SPL). Considering how Choice Scarf Mienfoo was only used once, it isn't fair to write off the set because that one game was a loss, or praise LO Reckless as anything more than a niche (but strong) wall-breaker because of its one win.
As for Scarf Mienfoo's low usage, that could be attributed just to the fact that pivot variants of Mienfoo are much easier to fit onto a team. Scarf Mienfoo tends to mainly see use on Hyper Offense and Fighting spam, but for two of the Fighting spam teams, Scraggy was used as Timburr's partner instead. This does not mean that Choice Scarf Mienfoo is a bad set, as it is one of the most frequently seen sets for the Hyper Offense archetype in general; however, HO was not used that much during this SPL season.


I should mention now that I actually respect the user kingmidas quite a bit both as a teambuilder and a battler, and did not mean for kingmidasfoo to be synonymous with badfoo. Goodfoo and kingmidasfoo are both excellent sets; I only feel that slowfoo often does not see the recognition it deserves, so I figured I would try to bring it into the limelight.
:mad:
I will now stop referring to fast Mienfoo as kingmidasfoo so he doesn't get the idea that he's actually being associated with a viable set.
 
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Merritt

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Head TD
I actually like using Hippoptas for stalling
give him leftovers, stockpile, and slack off and he's pretty decent
Ok so Leftovers are really bad in LC. They heal minimal HP (you need 32 HP for it to heal more than 1 HP per turn, which is kind of ridiculously high) and due to the extreme prevalence of knock off sometimes they'll actually result in you taking more damage than you heal. Eviolite is a much better item, since it's essentially an instantaneous stockpile boost that makes any mon much bulkier.

As for the set, Hippopotas doesn't really have room for stockpile most of the time. It already has 5 moves competing for attention in Stealth Rock, Earthquake, Slack Off, Whirlwind, and Rock Slide. Even then Stockpile is kind of bad, being only able to boost up to +3 as well as being slow - there are very few successful defensively boosting mons.

On a more meta note, LC has pretty much always been quite unfriendly to stall. Due to how hard offensive mons can hit and boost up, full stall usually falls apart even to teams without a stallbreaker. Semi-stall is quite possible, and Hippopotas fits well on that kind of build, but even there stockpile is a poor decision.

I'm sorry for tearing into your set like this, but I hope you found this somewhat helpful. I suggest you take a look at some of the resources available to new players, they're all well written and very helpful for getting into LC.
 
Slowfoo is actually even stronger in a diglett metagame. The fact that it can reliably tank a hit ( and regen) for the frail dig to switch in off the back of a uturn is amazing. I've been using slowfoo in almost all of my ladder teams, for a while now, and one of the few problems that I've encountered with it is switching into a pawnard. If the pawn iron heads- you are in trouble, since it cant outspeed pawn the next move ( unlike the 17 speed). However, that's just one situation, and, as exemplified by levi's calculations, slowfoo is superior in many ways. Another thing to consider is how common the set is; people will be inclined to predict the most commonly run faster, frailer set. Consequently, many people will assume they will kill the foo with the fletch acro or abra psychic, and that can cost them dearly when they are wrong.

Reckless life orb foo 1 hit kills almost anything that doesn't resist it, but it is also gimmicky and not 100% reliable. If you miss a hjk you are really screwed...
 
I don't think that whether a Pokemon is broken or not changes with time in a metagame. If the metagame shifts toward a certain pokemon that doesn't mean that it is overpowered at all. It might be, but it also might not be. For example, right now, Fletchling is used often, and is a strong threat. Obviously, it isn't broken, as its easily beaten by a ton of counters, in Tirtouga, Archen, Magnemite, Chinchou, as well as more obscure stuff, such as Onix, Geodude, Shieldon, or Aron. Unlike previous threats, such as Tangela, it cannot overpower its counters. It requires support, be it in the way of Diglett trapping or w/e. The fact that Diglett is a thing does not make Fletchling broken either, as the thought that occured during Tite suspecting is completely absurb. That thought was that Baton Pass with a pursuit trapper was broken, which was false. Pursuiting trapping required outplaying another player, and not simply pressing "Brave Bird." Meditite was banned for other reasons, such as coverage options, the ability to beat all of its counters, etc. Fletchling and Misdreavus cannot really get past its counters. Misdreavus loses to the bulky Normal types, as well as being easily Pursuit baited, along with several other options. I believe that the argument that Misdreavus is broken mostly stems from usage stats, as I have heard the same argument for Pokemon such as Pawniard, or Scraggy, along with Fletchling.

But I digress. I believe that a Pokemon cannot be suddenly broken a couple weeks from now. The metagame has already settled, there is no "too early to tell." If Missy is deemed broken in 3 weeks, it is because it is broken now. Metagame changes do not determine whether or not a pokemon can be op or not, as the metagame is always changing towards one mon or another. a good example of this is during the Swirlgar era. the meta went from Meditite to TorchPass to Swirlix sweeps, all in about a month. In each era, a top pokemon reigned supreme. The common thing was though, that Swirlix stayed constant throughout. If it is "too early" to tell if it is broken, I would hate to know when you can tell that it is. Regardless of time, Misdreavus will always be checked by pokemon such as Porygon, Munchlax, and Lickitung, among others. Whether the meta adapts to that, in running like, scarf machop or something is irrelevant, as in the end, those pokemon are viable, and Misdreavus will always be checked by them.

One thing I have been hyping is SS+Solid Rock Tirtouga.

Tirtouga @ Berry Juice
Ability: Solid Rock
Level: 5
EVs: 76 SDef / 40 Def / 80 HP / 212 Atk / 100 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall
- Shell Smash

The EV spread grants Tirtouga the ability to hit 20 Spe, outspeeding Misdreavus. The defensive investment assures that Chinchou cannot OHKO with Volt Switch with Rocks damage (in fact it often does ~60% on bullkier spreads). Even if Thunderbolt is used, bulkier spreads fail to OHKO. And in this metagame, bulk is ALWAYS needed on Chinchou. The spread also produces stuff like 51-81% from max SpA Croagunk's Vacuum Wave at -1 SpD. 45-68% from Timburr Mach Punch :) The added bulk also helps, avoiding the OHKO by Spritzee's Moonblast at -1, often with Stealth Rocks up (only a 6.3% chance). Earthquake is used over Stone Edge because misses are literally the worst. The only pokemon that you lose to are Foongus, and some variants of Vullaby (that I can think of). Earthquake however, lets you hit Chinchou and Croagunk for super-effective 2x damage. Solid Rock gives Tirtouga just enough bulk to not be OHKOed by a lot, but also to not be a stupid wall and not let Berry Juice activate a lot, often allowing for easy setup that results in full health.
Why give tirtouga berry juice? wouldn't it be better with a white herb?
 

Celestavian

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White Herb is a bad item on Shell Smash users because Eviolite does the same thing as it and is not a one-time use item, while also giving benefits before using Shell Smash. The boosts provided by Eviolite are equivalent to a permanent +1 in both defenses. This perfectly offsets the drop in defenses caused by Shell Smash, effectively making your Pokemon be at +0 in its defenses. White Herb also restores your defenses to +0, but it only works once. Also, White Herb does not boost your defenses before using Shell Smash, and instead only reactively restores them to their original value. Also, if your Shell Smasher gets forced out after boosting, then the White Herb is gone, and it makes boosting again harder than it needs to be. Thus, Eviolite always outclasses White Herb for the purposes of restoring the defense drops caused by Shell Smash.

However, Tirtouga prefers Berry Juice despite all this. It has the ability Sturdy, along with the stats to reach 21 HP. This means that, at full HP, Tirtouga can survive any hit that isn't backed by Mold Breaker, drop to 1 HP, heal 20 HP from Berry Juice, and return to exactly full HP, allowing it to receive the benefit from Sturdy again. This is a powerful strategy, and is usually superior to running Eviolite on Tirtouga since it will usually be fast enough to not worry about taking another hit from most Pokemon, and would rather have the ability to take any hit once again thanks to Sturdy. This can be worked around by using Knock Off or Bullet Seed, as well as bulky Fighting-types, but it does work once your opponent's team has been softened up enough.
 
I can't make an extensive post bc I'm at the ncaa wrestling championships (hype!!) but there are situs where u want evil solid rock smash tirt. The ability to take even super effective hits w rocks and get your smash is p dope - because of this, usually run ZHB because you can take a drain and then kill. Often pair it with a mon that typically clears hazards being used as a lure - pjab drill anyone? I usually agree w hawk that bj is better but there are some uses for evio
 
Lileep (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Suction Cups
Level: 5
EVs: 28 SpA / 220 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
- Stockpile
- Giga Drain
- Recover
- Earth Power

Holy Crap this such an awesome stall!!! I've gotten so many rage quits and wins with this set. First off is you need a mon holding light clay with reflect and lightscreen. This gives a good environment for lileep to set up using stockpile. after that you use giga drain and recover when needed and earth power on fire types.
 

Camden

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Lileep (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Suction Cups
Level: 5
EVs: 28 SpA / 220 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
- Stockpile
- Giga Drain
- Recover
- Earth Power

Holy Crap this such an awesome stall!!! I've gotten so many rage quits and wins with this set. First off is you need a mon holding light clay with reflect and lightscreen. This gives a good environment for lileep to set up using stockpile. after that you use giga drain and recover when needed and earth power on fire types.
You're missing some EVs on that set. I'd recommend putting them into HP so you get more out of Recover. Try using Storm Drain instead of Suction Cups so you have a Water immunity. Also, try using Ancient Power instead of Earth Power so you can hit Flying-types. In most cases I would actually just recommend the set in the analysis which is the following:

Lileep @ Eviolite
Level: 5
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 228 HP / 140 Def / 140 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Giga Drain
- Recover
- Ancient Power/Toxic

The EVs are designed to provide maximum bulk, which is something Lileep desperately needs if it wants to do its job properly. If you still want to use Stockpile instead of Stealth Rock, that's fine, but at least give the EVs a try.
 
You're missing some EVs on that set. I'd recommend putting them into HP so you get more out of Recover. Try using Storm Drain instead of Suction Cups so you have a Water immunity. Also, try using Ancient Power instead of Earth Power so you can hit Flying-types. In most cases I would actually just recommend the set in the analysis which is the following:

Lileep @ Eviolite
Level: 5
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 228 HP / 140 Def / 140 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Giga Drain
- Recover
- Ancient Power/Toxic

The EVs are designed to provide maximum bulk, which is something Lileep desperately needs if it wants to do its job properly. If you still want to use Stockpile instead of Stealth Rock, that's fine, but at least give the EVs a try.
to be fair I did try to put the remaining EVs in any other stat but it did nothing to boost any stats
 
!!! WARNING !!! QUALITY POST AHEAD !!! WARNING !!!


This thread is dead. As your lord and savior, it is my responsibility to resurrect it. This is analogous to Jesus resurrecting the widow's son at Nain. You only get two more resurrections after this (plus a bunch of saints get resurrected at my crucifixion).

DISCUSS: How important is speed control in LC?

Speed control: any form of changing or attempting to change the order in which moves on the battlefield take place. There are two major types of speed control: those that function by affecting one's own Pokemon, and those that function by affecting the opposing Pokemon. The following is a list of the various types of speed control applicable in LC (i.e., no Quiver Dance, Geomancy, etc. because nothing in LC learns them):
AFFECT YOU:
  • Curse*: -1 Spe, +1 Atk, Def, different effects when used by Ghost-type Pokemon
  • Hammer Arm*: deals damage, -1 Spe
  • Ancient Power, Ominous Wind, Silver Wind: deals damage, 10% chance for +1 to Atk, Def, SpA, SpD, Spe
  • Dragon Dance: +1 Atk, Spe
  • Flame Charge: deals damage, +1 Spe
  • Acupressure: raises one random stat by +2
  • Agility, Rock Polish: +2 Spe
  • Autotomize: +2 Spe, lowered weight
  • Shell Smash: +2 Atk, SpA, Spe, -1 Def, SpD
  • Shift Gear: +2 Spe, +1 Atk (Klink exclusive in LC)
  • Tailwind: Spe x 2 for whole team, lasts 5 turns
  • Motor Drive: +1 Spe when hit by an Electric-type move (Blitzle exclusive in LC)
  • Rattled: +1 Spe when hit by a Bug-, Dark-, or Ghost-type move
  • Speed Boost: +1 Spe every full turn
  • Steadfast: +1 Spe upon flinching
  • Weak Armor: +1 Spe when hit by a physical attack
  • Chlorophyll: Spe x 2 when weather is sun
  • Quick Feet: Spe x 1.5 when afflicted with status condition
  • Sand Rush: Spe x 2 when weather is sandstorm
  • Swift Swim: Spe x 2 when weather is rain
  • Unburden: Spe x 2 when item has been consumed
  • Salac Berry: +1 Spe when HP is below 1/4
  • Starf Berry: raises one random stat by +2 when HP is below 1/4
  • Choice Scarf: Spe x 1.5 when held, restricts move usage
AFFECT THEM:
  • Bubble, Bubble Beam, Constrict: deals damage, 10% chance for -1 Spe
  • Bulldoze, Icy Wind, Low Sweep, Mud Shot, Rock Tomb: deals damage, -1 Spe
  • Venom Drench: -1 Atk, SpA, Spe if target is poisoned
  • Sticky Web: entry hazard, -1 Spe to all grounded Pokemon
  • Cotton Spore, Scary Face, String Shot: -2 Spe
  • Gooey: -1 Spe on contact with Pokemon (Goomy exclusive in LC)
  • Paralysis (Thunder Wave, Glare, Body Slam, etc.): Spe / 4, 25% chance not to move

The items I have italicized are the moves, abilities, status conditions, and entry hazards that I have deemed relevant to LC. Please feel free to let me know if you disagree with any of these decisions. Items marked with an asterisk negatively impact the user.



Now that I have established what exactly speed control is, it makes sense to discuss why speed control may or may not be relevant to LC. In LC, 11 Pokemon reach 19 Speed unboosted, an additional seven reach 18, and 22 more Pokemon can hit 17 speed. This density of speed naturally means that there are more likely to be speed ties in this tier than in any other.

Speed ties add an element of luck to the game. Luck does two things, which I'll talk about a lot more at some other time. Firstly, it adds variety to the game. This is what makes players return to a game like Pokemon: even if the situation is identical to one that you've played a thousand times before, the outcome may be very different. This is also the reason why you have to be autistic to be good at chess, which is boring because there aren't any dice. Secondly, it removes some amount of skill from the game. Skill at a game is directly related to autonomy. When players have an amount of autonomy taken from them, the game becomes less reliant on skill because options are lost. This is why sometimes players of a lower caliber (like Sweep) can beat players of a higher caliber (like me); they get lucky and their opponent loses enough options that the game becomes essentially unwinnable.

Regardless of your stance on luck in games, speed ties are functionally different from other elements of luck. You can't plan to be frozen, or flinched, and playing around such a possibility will often leave you at a deficit- the counterplay for these possibilities is rarely or never viable. However, there is viable counterplay to speed ties: speed control. Speed control is viable enough on its own that its usefulness as a speed tie-bug spray actually magnifies its viability- this is why you don't see people using Tailwind or Sticky Web in OU, but you do in LC (people use Thunder Wave in every tier because paralysis is really good).

There are various types of speed control in LC, but they can be classified into seven major categories: 1) active boosting, or using a move to boost your Speed (Flame Charge, Shell Smash), 2) passive boosting, or using an item or ability to boost your Speed (Speed Boost, Choice Scarf), 3) environmental boosting, or using weather or other turn-limited moves to boost your Speed (Tailwind, Sunny Day/Drought + Chlorophyll), 4) active dropping, or using an attacking move to lower the opponent's Speed (Icy Wind, Rock Tomb), 5) passive dropping, or using a status move to lower the opponent's Speed (Thunder Wave, Glare), 6) environmental dropping (Sticky Web), and 7) universal effects, or the use of moves that effect the whole field (Trick Room, Wonder Room). I did not include the seventh category on the previous list because they're fairly irrelevant in LC, and also because I sorta forgot about them, but they do exist and may provide for some interesting discussion.

To restate the discussion point, now as three separate points:

1. How viable is speed control in LC?

2. How important is speed control in LC?

3. What particular types of speed control are most viable in LC?

Have a great day! :D
and fuck you Goao
 
Speed controll while highly important, isn't mutch of a subject on it's own. With that I mean when someone prepaires for a certain play style they rater prepair for a specific part of it. On the speed lowering it's mostly Rock tomb, Paralysis and Sticky Web's. So Sticky Web's by placing pokemon that work well against sticky web's (example Fletchling/Pawniard/Snivy) or Bulky Offence with T-wave spam makes you run a status absorber, if not a way to deal with the amout of paralysis spam.
If you did really go into speed controll like Tailwind/Trick room. They are known to be somewhat viable but uncommon play styles. Seriously when is the last time you have seen anyone use Trick Room or Tailwind oriented teams? It's also not something you did be smacking into your team even though you could really.
On the subject of Rock Tomb, that's about the only move I found somewhat smacked on teams even when the majority of pokemon to use it have a better Rock type move example Stone Edge or Rock Blast, even though Rock slide can offen make it useless. So it basically limit's itself to Drilburr and maby pokemon like archen if sutch a team could make more then general use of the move. These forms are so strong in there potentialls to be exploided into one of the best play styles, teams try to make optimal use of them for example sticky web's trying to keep optimal pressure to prevent spin/defog aswell as possibly winning the game with Snivy or sutch once there main threath Fletchling/Ponyta/Foongus has been removed or worn down to the point it can revengekill them.

Moves, Abilies and Item's that effect your own speed like Dragon Dance, Speed boost and Choise Scarf are unquestionably important. LC has many forms of Priority that can bypass a boost in speed for example Pawniard/Fletchling, however the most effective set up pokemon like Omanyte/Scraggy can by pass these flaws by resisting one another or being weak to them, Shellder I haven't found too weak to priority, just nearly impossible to set up against special attackers, as most of the metagame is Physically oriented that shouldn't be too mutch of a problem. These pokemon have other flaws that can be made up for there offence by having fairly solid walls or atleast things to deal with it being set up. Example Steel types like Pawniard/Magnemite for Shellder, Generally bulkier teams agaisnt Omanyte, Fairy types against Scraggy. Scarf threaths can be somewhat scouted for aswell as expecting it to be scarfed (manually switching Mienfoo), these can be bluffed and offen get a unexpected kill if used correctly. There job did mostly be done once the opponant should find out it holds a Choise Scarf.

Having a form of speed controll could help beat them for example sticky webs commonly get's underestimated on how mutch it hinders 13 speed smashers (13 x2) x 0,67 = 17,42 = 17. Rater then (13 +2boost(x2) -1(speed drop) = +1 = 19,5 = 19. This can make omanyte from a sweep possition into a more dice based thing thanks to hitting the 17 speed tier (or anything above 17 screwing it over). What as we all know is one of the more common speed tiers even if some pokemon don't even want to be in it like Chinchou or slower Mienfoo(I don't care how you refer to it).

Thunderwave can be used as an alternat way of stopping set up as it compleatly takes away the users speed. Pokemon like Omanyte that become more frail after the boost are in a hugh disadvantage if they are paralysed. This is where Bulky offence tends to bring it's pride as these teams are slower with more powerfull threaths like Skrelp to blast holes into teams allowing set up pokemon to sweep or this can just be repeated over and over.

Tailwind is the one I found the hardest to figure when I first used it as it's short in duration even shorter then Sun oriented teams without a Heat Rock. However it provides speed to some of the most exeptional wallbreakers in the game with a x2 speed boost, something you did normally need Torchic for to achieve and could arguably be set up on. Tailwind can allow Cranidoss, Bunnelby, (CB things if anyone cares to use those like CB Corhpish) but also even slower pokemon like Skrelp to speed tie Diglett or outspeed scarfed threaths or even Shell Smashers after a set up. Sadly the majority of effective users either lack the moveslot to just smack it on any team even though some pokemon like Cottonee, Archen, Fletchling and Vullaby can drop coverage(or utility for Vullaby/Cottonee) if this can be made up for with another team mate. And that last bit ruins the versatility or utility of the users, second of you need to get your offencive threath out and teams can't afford to manually switch in there wallbreaker if it's there main win con. These are small things that make a hugh difference in practice.
I do need to say it's interesting seeing someone put up a full list on this subject as this subject is never really convered on sutch a wide scale.(Hench why I split it in 3-4 parts.)
 
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Rowan

The professor?
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Personally, speed control should probably be explored more in LC. Powerful wallbreakers such as Skrelp, Cranidos love moving first and if you can make that situation happen for you it's great. The person that has explored speed control the most is probably fatty, He had a decent tailwind team and has been known to use Thunder Wave reasonably often.

ThunderWave/Stun Spore/Glare is so readily available to so many Pokemon in LC, that it's actually rather easy to create a paraspreading team in LC. Snubbull, Chinchou, Ferroseed, Cottonee, Snivy, Magnemite, Pawniard, Porygon all have the ability to spread paralysis so it isn't hard to create a team where 3+ mons can spread it.
There are things you need to prepare for though, notably Clerics; Spritzee+Chinchou are very common and most often run Heal Bell because lost of things in LC are crippled by status. However, because of the need for them to heal bell it can give you free switches. Skrelp works well with paralysis for obvious reasons, and can really take advantage of Spritzee. Chinchou is even more annoying because it can switch into thunder waves. This is why Snivy works so well as it can switch in to Chinchou, has Glare, and can take advantage of the loss of momentum - Chinchou will be more likely to heal bell than volt switch if its team is paralysed, so it really loves the free switch ins. Timburr is also a threat to these teams due to Guts, but Snubbull and Cottonee both wall it whilst having access to paralysing moves.
In conclusion, due to the vast amount of Pokemon with paralysing moves, it is easy to make a standard team that can really take advantage of paralysis. It also allows you to run bulkier Pokemon such as Timburr and Skrelp which love the support of Thunder Wave, whilst offering defensive presence. It's not only the speed drops that are good, the 25% chance that your opponent can't move will eventually kick in, and can give you a bit of breathing space if you're in a tight position, can give you free subs, and can even completely turn the game on its head if it happens at a crucial moment, and is sure to make your opponent very angry
 
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I have played around with a Speed control Cranidos team, since this lets it run Adamant max attack, which is almost unstoppable without things outspeeding. While the idea does have some merit, some stuff still lives hit's easily, but the best thing about such a team is that it wouldn't be very easy to spot the paraspread until it's too late. The team could easily look like a normal team, allowing Pokemon like Spritzee to take some damage without suspicion.

236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Iron Head vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 21-26 (77.7 - 96.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Iron Head vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Spritzee: 29-36 (107.4 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Rock Slide vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 23-31 (92 - 124%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO (Guaranteed OH'KO after rocks too.)

236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Zen Headbutt vs. 116 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 23-29 (104.5 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Zen Headbutt vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 23-29 (92 - 116%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (This surprised me tbh.)

I'm sure there's a lot more, but just as a start these calcs can show how strong Cranidos can be. I only put bulkier Mons up, since Crani can obviously kill anything that requires para to outspeed.
 
Any form of speed control with Choice Band Bunnelby is extremely effective, as CB Bunnelby 2HKOs the entire tier with a set of Return/Theif/Earthquake/Quick Attack. The only exception is Eviolite Archen, and if you have pursuit users just run Stone Edge or Iron Head or some other option that beats Archen. People beware the Bunny.





Archen (LC Defensive)Return44 - 52%9% chance to 2HKO
Ferroseed (LC Utility)Earthquake50 - 63.6%guaranteed 2HKO
Pumpkaboo-Super (LC Spinblocker)Thief72 - 88%guaranteed 2HKO

Archen takes the least amount of damage. I could go on with more calcs, but Bunnelby literally obliterates the tier.

Now, let's take into account what this nuke is weak to. Pokemon that can outspeed or out-prioritise, and OHKO. Also, Pokemon that can take one Return and OHKO. The latter is hard to deal with, but essentially you must switch out. The former is where speed control comes in. Now that Bunnelby out-speeds your Mienfoo, watch the destruction ensue as you get OHKO after OHKO. Most people for some reason think that Mienfoo can tank a return. In reality, standard Bulky and fast Mienfoo get OHKO'd. Why isn't Choice Band the standard wall breaking set over Life Orb? Life Orb literally loses to Archen, Ferroseed, and Lileep if it runs the same set. Furthermore, it forgoes its ability to take one Timburr Mach Punch then with a little prior damage, KO. So far I have been using this on a Webs team.

Also, isn't this a thing of beauty;
Magnemite (LC Choice Scarf)Earthquake463.1 - 568.4%guaranteed OHKO

Cranidos has nothing on Lord Bunny.
 
Honestly I like throwing in bulky Tailwind Fletch or Cottonee on random teams that need something to help with fighters. Fletch has U-turn, Cotton has the defensive stats/typing, both do it pretty well. I think the most obvious wall breaker is Skrelp because it's bulky enough and has great typing allowing it to be a pivot as well, but people are never prepared for LO foo which i think is a monster.
 
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yea in a tier as offensive and riddled with speed ties as lc, speed control is easily the most important aspect. priority has always been important, but as the generations have gone by there has been a large increase the amount of viable mediums through which to control speed, making it much easier to do. this, along with the addition of powerful items such as eviolite and berry juice, has led me to focus less on maxing out speed (unless absolutely needed) and more on meeting specific offensive and defensive benchmarks. basically, this equates to having a bunch of hard hitters that don't lose momentum with a lot of safety sets in the back, which can take many forms (tailwind, fletch, pawn, timburr, cottonee, paraspam, etc). i find this to be the easiest way to build balanced / bo in lc, and although builds sometimes feel similar they're definitely the most consistent imo. hell, i don't think i've ran a scarfer other than pawn in forever, and that's just because abra / gastly are cunt bags.

speaking of cottonee, i find it to be the most spashable mon behind mienfoo simply because of the awesome momentum it can provide and always being able to throw out an emergency stun spore. its typing and bulk is just the icing on the cake, making it a wonderful pivot into a ton of threats.
 
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