Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

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Merritt

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Hey usage stats are out so it's time for a usage analysis.

First off, 1 to 1 comparisons of the top five used mons at each level of play except 1500 because fuck 1500. November's on the left, December's on the right.

| 1 | Abra | 29.32701% | 34408 | ____ | 1 | Abra | 29.19108% | 38456
| 2 | Mienfoo | 25.61560% | 30047 | ____ | 2 | Mienfoo | 26.22052% | 34543
| 3 | Pawniard | 16.97480% | 19915 | ____ | 3 | Pawniard | 18.39227% | 24229
| 4 | Gastly | 15.72698% | 18450 | ____ | 4 | Fletchling | 16.49611% | 21731
| 5 | Fletchling | 15.56328% | 18257 | ____ | 5 | Chinchou | 13.96210% | 18395

Movement: Abra +0, Mienfoo +0, Pawniard +0, Gastly -2, Fletchling +1, Chinchou +1


| 1 | Mienfoo | 43.35012% | 30047 | ____ | 1 | Mienfoo | 47.22400% | 34543 |
| 2 | Abra | 31.90746% | 34408 | ____ | 2 | Pawniard | 33.43844% | 24229 |
| 3 | Pawniard | 31.71737% | 19915 | ____ | 3 | Abra | 31.54427% | 38456 |
| 4 | Fletchling | 25.27044% | 18257 | ____ | 4 | Fletchling | 28.02280% | 21731 |
| 5 | Chinchou | 21.21144% | 15618 | ____ | 5 | Chinchou | 21.84824% | 18395 |

Movement: Mienfoo +0, Abra -1, Pawniard +1, Fletchling +0, Chinchou +0


| 1 | Mienfoo | 54.78776% | 30047 | ____ | 1 | Mienfoo | 62.67998% | 34543 |
| 2 | Pawniard | 40.79079% | 19915 | ____ | 2 | Pawniard | 39.71308% | 24229 |
| 3 | Abra | 32.99829% | 34408 | ____ | 3 | Fletchling | 30.10898% | 21731 |
| 4 | Fletchling | 28.20153% | 18257 | ____ | 4 | Abra | 27.28418% | 38456 |
| 5 | Chinchou | 24.91798% | 15618 | ____ | 5 | Diglett | 25.23933% | 12596 |

Movement: Mienfoo +0, Pawniard +0, Abra -1, Fletchling +1, Chinchou -1, Diglett +1


First off, we got a lot more sim battles this month than last (probably due to school breaks and stuff giving more time) but also Abra usage is down. Kinda. It's more dramatic in the 1760 stats, where it fell almost 6% in usage, but even in 0 stats it fell by a little more than 0.1%. Pawniard's also getting more usage except in 1760, where it fell by about 1%.

Oh and I'll talk about the two/three big things in 1760. Fletchling has managed to pull ahead of Abra and actually rose in usage in every level. Mienfoo's usage also rose. It's now at 62.68% in 1760. That's kind of a really big deal. Pawniard, the next closest, is only getting about 63.35% of the usage that Mienfoo is getting. This isn't the highest it's ever been, but it's damn close and considering that the last peak of 63.51100% in May 2015 had only 48602 battles while last December had 65871 (a pretty significant increase) that's a good sign that Mienfoo is a bit popular as you might have seen once or twice. On a different note Diglett's in the top 5 in 1760.

Now onto more interesting stuff probably! Movesets! Red means less usage, Green means more. I'm only going to cover interesting changes, not everything.

(something weird to note is that Reckless is up a lot from last month)
| Knock Off 98.864% |
| U-turn 88.296% |
| Drain Punch 71.727% |

| High Jump Kick 39.100% |
| Fake Out 26.245% |

| Taunt 25.526% |
| Stone Edge 24.120% |
| Acrobatics 11.080%

As for items, Life Orb is up drastically, appearing on items when it wasn't present last month. Choice Scarf is also up a little, while Eviolite is down significantly, but it's still by far the most common.


(Magic Guard usage is slightly up... but it's still not at 99%)
Items:
| Focus Sash 72.206% | + ~9%
| Life Orb 25.844% | - ~6%

| Psychic 97.268% |
| Hidden Power Fighting 81.234% |
| Dazzling Gleam 73.780% |
| Energy Ball 55.741% |
| Protect 23.437% |

| Substitute 23.113% |
| Shadow Ball 22.551% |

| Taunt 5.693% |
| Psyshock unlisted% | :)

Most of these are up by a very small amount tbf, but the more interesting part is more Sash and less Life Orb, which correlates to the Subsititute decline.


So this is a massive one for items. Here's the November item stats:
| Focus Sash 53.347% | | Life Orb 45.940% |

And the December ones:
| Life Orb 71.245% | | Focus Sash 28.258% |

This isn't adequately expressed by a color, so here it is in full glory.

In other news, Substitute usage is way up while Stealth Rock usage is way down. Memento is also somewhat down.


(Water absorb usage is up slightly)
| Eviolite 38.136% |
| Choice Scarf 35.973% |
| Berry Juice 25.415% |

As for moves, Ice Beam and Hidden Power Ground are up drastically, while Heal Bell and Thunderbolt are down a lot. This reflects the move to Choice Scarf Chinchou very well along with the rise of Magnemite.

So I'll leave with some interesting other usage stats. All of these are 1760, for reference.

Timburr

November
| 7 | Timburr | 19.78606% | 8899 |

December
| 14 | Timburr | 12.87584% | 9295 |

CLAMPERL

November:

| 57 | Clamperl | 1.38655% | 4669 |

December
| 23 | Clamperl | 8.77513% | 6237 |

There is actually no excuse for this. I am shocked beyond words. I can't actually type any more. Clamperl is going to rise from LCUU next month with a 4.5% usage in the 1500 stats.

Somebody help me understand how Clamperl is now more used at 1760 than Spritzee, Scraggy, Croagunk, and Honedge.

Also it doesn't look like anything shifted to or from LC UU, but wait for Antar on the final word there.
 

Melon

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
CLAMPERL

November:

| 57 | Clamperl | 1.38655% | 4669 |

December
| 23 | Clamperl | 8.77513% | 6237 |

There is actually no excuse for this. I am shocked beyond words. I can't actually type any more. Clamperl is going to rise from LCUU next month with a 4.5% usage in the 1500 stats.

Somebody help me understand how Clamperl is now more used at 1760 than Spritzee, Scraggy, Croagunk, and Honedge.
There was some sort of janky Webs team all over the ladder in November that featured a SubSmash Clamperl. There were multiple versions with it, some running weird shit like Focus Sash Golett and later versions running SD Honedge. That's more likely then not the source of the incredible usage behind Clamperl in November, and I still have no idea where the team came from (RMT I skipped over?)
 

Star

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Hey usage stats are out so it's time for a usage analysis.

First off, 1 to 1 comparisons of the top five used mons at each level of play except 1500 because fuck 1500. November's on the left, December's on the right.

| 1 | Abra | 29.32701% | 34408 | ____ | 1 | Abra | 29.19108% | 38456
| 2 | Mienfoo | 25.61560% | 30047 | ____ | 2 | Mienfoo | 26.22052% | 34543
| 3 | Pawniard | 16.97480% | 19915 | ____ | 3 | Pawniard | 18.39227% | 24229
| 4 | Gastly | 15.72698% | 18450 | ____ | 4 | Fletchling | 16.49611% | 21731
| 5 | Fletchling | 15.56328% | 18257 | ____ | 5 | Chinchou | 13.96210% | 18395

Movement: Abra +0, Mienfoo +0, Pawniard +0, Gastly -2, Fletchling +1, Chinchou +1


| 1 | Mienfoo | 43.35012% | 30047 | ____ | 1 | Mienfoo | 47.22400% | 34543 |
| 2 | Abra | 31.90746% | 34408 | ____ | 2 | Pawniard | 33.43844% | 24229 |
| 3 | Pawniard | 31.71737% | 19915 | ____ | 3 | Abra | 31.54427% | 38456 |
| 4 | Fletchling | 25.27044% | 18257 | ____ | 4 | Fletchling | 28.02280% | 21731 |
| 5 | Chinchou | 21.21144% | 15618 | ____ | 5 | Chinchou | 21.84824% | 18395 |

Movement: Mienfoo +0, Abra -1, Pawniard +1, Fletchling +0, Chinchou +0


| 1 | Mienfoo | 54.78776% | 30047 | ____ | 1 | Mienfoo | 62.67998% | 34543 |
| 2 | Pawniard | 40.79079% | 19915 | ____ | 2 | Pawniard | 39.71308% | 24229 |
| 3 | Abra | 32.99829% | 34408 | ____ | 3 | Fletchling | 30.10898% | 21731 |
| 4 | Fletchling | 28.20153% | 18257 | ____ | 4 | Abra | 27.28418% | 38456 |
| 5 | Chinchou | 24.91798% | 15618 | ____ | 5 | Diglett | 25.23933% | 12596 |

Movement: Mienfoo +0, Pawniard +0, Abra -1, Fletchling +1, Chinchou -1, Diglett +1


First off, we got a lot more sim battles this month than last (probably due to school breaks and stuff giving more time) but also Abra usage is down. Kinda. It's more dramatic in the 1760 stats, where it fell almost 6% in usage, but even in 0 stats it fell by a little more than 0.1%. Pawniard's also getting more usage except in 1760, where it fell by about 1%.

Oh and I'll talk about the two/three big things in 1760. Fletchling has managed to pull ahead of Abra and actually rose in usage in every level. Mienfoo's usage also rose. It's now at 62.68% in 1760. That's kind of a really big deal. Pawniard, the next closest, is only getting about 63.35% of the usage that Mienfoo is getting. This isn't the highest it's ever been, but it's damn close and considering that the last peak of 63.51100% in May 2015 had only 48602 battles while last December had 65871 (a pretty significant increase) that's a good sign that Mienfoo is a bit popular as you might have seen once or twice. On a different note Diglett's in the top 5 in 1760.

Now onto more interesting stuff probably! Movesets! Red means less usage, Green means more. I'm only going to cover interesting changes, not everything.

(something weird to note is that Reckless is up a lot from last month)
| Knock Off 98.864% |
| U-turn 88.296% |
| Drain Punch 71.727% |

| High Jump Kick 39.100% |
| Fake Out 26.245% |

| Taunt 25.526% |
| Stone Edge 24.120% |
| Acrobatics 11.080%

As for items, Life Orb is up drastically, appearing on items when it wasn't present last month. Choice Scarf is also up a little, while Eviolite is down significantly, but it's still by far the most common.


(Magic Guard usage is slightly up... but it's still not at 99%)
Items:
| Focus Sash 72.206% | + ~9%
| Life Orb 25.844% | - ~6%

| Psychic 97.268% |
| Hidden Power Fighting 81.234% |
| Dazzling Gleam 73.780% |
| Energy Ball 55.741% |
| Protect 23.437% |

| Substitute 23.113% |
| Shadow Ball 22.551% |

| Taunt 5.693% |
| Psyshock unlisted% | :)

Most of these are up by a very small amount tbf, but the more interesting part is more Sash and less Life Orb, which correlates to the Subsititute decline.


So this is a massive one for items. Here's the November item stats:
| Focus Sash 53.347% | | Life Orb 45.940% |

And the December ones:
| Life Orb 71.245% | | Focus Sash 28.258% |

This isn't adequately expressed by a color, so here it is in full glory.

In other news, Substitute usage is way up while Stealth Rock usage is way down. Memento is also somewhat down.


(Water absorb usage is up slightly)
| Eviolite 38.136% |
| Choice Scarf 35.973% |
| Berry Juice 25.415% |

As for moves, Ice Beam and Hidden Power Ground are up drastically, while Heal Bell and Thunderbolt are down a lot. This reflects the move to Choice Scarf Chinchou very well along with the rise of Magnemite.

So I'll leave with some interesting other usage stats. All of these are 1760, for reference.

Timburr

November
| 7 | Timburr | 19.78606% | 8899 |

December
| 14 | Timburr | 12.87584% | 9295 |

CLAMPERL

November:

| 57 | Clamperl | 1.38655% | 4669 |

December
| 23 | Clamperl | 8.77513% | 6237 |

There is actually no excuse for this. I am shocked beyond words. I can't actually type any more. Clamperl is going to rise from LCUU next month with a 4.5% usage in the 1500 stats.

Somebody help me understand how Clamperl is now more used at 1760 than Spritzee, Scraggy, Croagunk, and Honedge.

Also it doesn't look like anything shifted to or from LC UU, but wait for Antar on the final word there.
Because Eniigma
 
There was some sort of janky Webs team all over the ladder in November that featured a SubSmash Clamperl. There were multiple versions with it, some running weird shit like Focus Sash Golett and later versions running SD Honedge. That's more likely then not the source of the incredible usage behind Clamperl in November, and I still have no idea where the team came from (RMT I skipped over?)
The SD honedge was lovely wasn't it :3
 

Merritt

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Clamperl stuff.

November:

| 63 | Clamperl | 1.86276% | 4669 | 3.980% | 3514 | 3.950% |

December:

| 32 | Clamperl | 5.15087% | 6237 | 4.734% | 4437 | 4.470% |

Word of Antar says that the overall is measured by a 20-4 split, or 5/6ths weight to the most recent month and 1/6th weight to the less. The threshold for a quickrise is 4.516%

The overall usage stat for Clamperl is 4.6028516666666666666666666%

Clamperl rose from LC UU, please correct me if I'm doing this math wrong.

Tagging The Immortal so it can be implemented I guess.
 

tcr

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lol no. I understand that drifloon is really good and all, but in no way is it like Swirlix. Swirlix's main issues were that if it set up at all the game was over unless you ran something really dumb like Aron or that other fossil mon that wobb liked(which still lost to things like HP Ground if Swirl wanted to run that), the ability to beat every single common defensive core at the time (Slowpoke+Foongus was THE best defensive core and even then Swirl could get through them with simple Stealth Rock or a good roll (iirc it was a 1/16 roll to ohko foongus with return or slowpoke with play rough, and the most they could do in return was sleep / paralyze, which aromatherapy swirl shit on). Unpredictability was a main staple of Swirlix, being able to run at least 2 different offensive sets with completely different counters and even having a semi viable support / defensive set (Calm Mind / Calm Mind+Cotton Guard / belly Drum / Support Swirlix). On the other hand Drifloon has about one set thats really good and the rest are kinda meh (WoW / Sub / Recycle / shadow ball or acro).

by all means discuss floon or even unburden if you want to, but comparing floon to swirlix is like comparing pawniard and sneasel, and imo is kinda laughable.

for the record I don't support a floon ban and would much prefer diglett to go as it should have, as there have now been 3 different possible suspects that have been influenced by Diglett (Diglett itself, Fletch was suspected or brought up as a possible suspect directly after Missy iirc during Missy era, and that was largely influenced by its ability to ravage things with Diglett. That was deemed perfectly acceptable, and it'd be hilariously hypocritical if Drifloon was banned for the exact same things that Fletch was doing at the time).
 
I wouldn't be opposed to taking a look at Drifloon and even Diglett again (the meta has evolved in such a way that makes it a little more dangerous) but, as we all know from the last suspect tests, I'm very cautious as to what I'd call "look". Suspect tests acknowledges the possibility of a ban and that process is just a nightmare - I would rather have some valuable discussion first.

It's just recently that Drifloon has been skyrocketed by SPL users (not taking credit for the set, I just think I was the one of the first people to be a cunt with it against OP). It needs time to see some dedicated checks move in. I have a feeling if it gets the same attention to team building as Fletchling, it is quite manageable. It is definitely more versatile but as long as its not going to stall out the entire metagame (like the SubWoWRecycle set), it's not too threatening (I know Calm Mind/etc are threatening, just not as ridiculous). I don't want to get into creative counters yet because there's a lot of tournaments going on but it's not that hard to see a few obvious ones (Onix, slow Volt-Switch, etc).

Also please don't do blanket bans like Unburden. If that was the problem we'd have treecko fucking our shit. I am very opposed to collateral effects of Bans. If we're looking for a blanket problem, I think it's Berry Juice.

edit: no I don't think we should ban berry juice, I'm just saying the item is more influencial than Unburden is (hence why no one complains too much about like Sub Petaya variants of Swirlix) and I said it for the sole purpose of attacking the viewpoint that we should ban Unburden because its based on a false premise.
 
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Corporal Levi

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I disagree with a Drifloon ban being hypocritical compared to the Fletchling no ban. From a teambuilding perspective, Drifloon is pretty much everything Fletchling is but also way too spooky. It beats nearly all of the threats Fletchling is supposed to, often more convincingly because it isn't dropped into Stealth Rock range from switching into any neutral attack off the streets. On top of that, Drifloon is able to win against a very large number of standard bird checks without otherwise decreasing its performance, to the point where Diglett support genuinely removes the vast majority of Drifloon's issues, as opposed to a small portion of Fletchling's. Essentially, although a Drifloon suspect would use similar arguments to the Fletchling suspect, the arguments would be significantly stronger, as a lot of the counterarguments for Fletchling's ban, eg there are a variety of Fletchling checks that aren't weak to Diglett, don't apply nearly as well to Drifloon.

Anyways, if we assume floondig is broken (which we shouldn't yet, but pretend for a second that you're convinced it is), I don't think we should rule out banning Drifloon as opposed to Diglett. The idea is that Diglett is already borderline broken so it must be Diglett that pushes Drifloon over the edge. My argument is that floondig is the only Diglett combination that's broken. What differentiates floondig from other well-known Diglett combinations is that cores like shelldig and foodig have plenty of already viable means to check them. For example, Choice Scarf variants of Pawniard or Magnemite, or very bulky but still powerful Pokemon such as Porygon or Spritzee, are able to withstand an attack from a boosted Shellder and hit it hard, while being able to get around Diglett; these are all already commonplace and sometimes even top tier sets and Pokemon, and would continue to be so even if Diglett (or Shellder) was banned. Fairies, Foongus, and physically defensive Vullaby are generally solid Pokemon that can deal with foodig. The vast majority of the metagame that doesn't lose to Diglett can handle Fletchdig in some way.
Floondig is something else entirely in this regard - you're pretty much limited to RestTalk Munchlax and Scarf Amaura among the genuinely relevant sets if you want to reliably beat it. It's not really on the same level as other Diglett combos. In other words, just as much as Diglett makes Drifloon broken, Drifloon makes Diglett broken.
I'd like to note, at this point, that outside of Drifloon, Diglett hasn't really gotten better since the last suspect in terms of viability. Water spam and some of the things that have emerged to check it, such as Foongus and Snivy, are all negatives for Diglett by easily forcing it out, which isn't great considering how hard they can be to switch into, and although Diglett can partner with them, Gothita tends to do a better job at eliminating their checks. In addition, we're starting to see more adaptions to Diglett on formerly Diglett-weak Pokemon, such as Choice Scarf Magnemite and Flame Charge Ponyta. A few things like offensive Vullaby's rise and Croagunk's return benefit Diglett, but not hugely in the former's case because Vullaby is another Pokemon that Diglett forces out. Obviously this isn't a hugely convincing argument for those who wanted Diglett banned then as well, but I think it's worth mentioning regardless.
 
I feel like I'm being baited into revealing secrets but w.e
I disagree with a Drifloon ban being hypocritical compared to the Fletchling no ban. From a teambuilding perspective, Drifloon is pretty much everything Fletchling is but also way too spooky. It beats nearly all of the threats Fletchling is supposed to, often more convincingly because it isn't dropped into Stealth Rock range from switching into any neutral attack off the streets. On top of that, Drifloon is able to win against a very large number of standard bird checks without otherwise decreasing its performance, to the point where Diglett support genuinely removes the vast majority of Drifloon's issues, as opposed to a small portion of Fletchling's. Essentially, although a Drifloon suspect would use similar arguments to the Fletchling suspect, the arguments would be significantly stronger, as a lot of the counterarguments for Fletchling's ban, eg there are a variety of Fletchling checks that aren't weak to Diglett, don't apply nearly as well to Drifloon.
I get the sentiment that one =/= the other but I disagree with the extent. I think Drifloon is FAR different than Fletchling - really the only similarity is that they have STAB Acro with nearly unmatched Speed. I think Drifloon is far better at having utility and 1v1ing Pokemon than Fletchling. It spinblocks and burns mons to help you stall them out and help other mons set up. Fletchling has immediate power with Acrobatics, it does not need to Sub down. It's also a very adept revenge killer. Most importantly, Fletchling is the kind of Pokemon that if there are no counters it just wins. Drifloon can take out a few Pokemon, but to say it just wins once its counters are gone is not exactly true - it doesn't do enough damage and recycle doesn't last forever. All it takes is a burn/status on one of the recycles to end it. So sure, the combo of FloonDig is more versatile and annoying than FletchDig, but the consequences of Diglett trapping for Fletch are far scarier. I don't think FloonDig is worse or better - I think they are different altogether and the comparison is not too helpful, unless the focus of the combo reverts back to Diglett.

Floondig is something else entirely in this regard - you're pretty much limited to RestTalk Munchlax and Scarf Amaura among the genuinely relevant sets if you want to reliably beat it. It's not really on the same level as other Diglett combos. In other words, just as much as Diglett makes Drifloon broken, Drifloon makes Diglett broken.
This part is not true at all. No I'm not going to list all of the Pokemon that beat the combo, but the combo is much easier to beat considering it doesn't have U-turn, Overheat, and immediately powerful Acrobatics. Things like Pony and even Larvesta can take Acrobatics really easily when it's unboosted. Sure they are trapped by Diglett but not after a Flame Charge. There's Taillow which can't be trapped and hits through sub. There's straight up Encore Cottonee. There's Special Smashers, Rattle Omanyte. There's the beast Porygon which rekts both pretty hard (Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, especially if Trace, though it has a harder time if it switches into wisp (as long as wisp hits (rip me in week 4)). There's Snivy with HP Ice/Rock. I mean we could get really creative and use like Agility Chinchou, Tailwind Vullaby, Roar Archen, Special Archen which all have other competitive uses.

So, no, we're not at the point where you can say "pretty much limited to" and then just list two mons.
 
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While there are plenty of people already asking to reconcider the current state of Diglett, I do want to trow in a more re-done version what I have said when it was suspected.
Diglett on it's own isn't describe able as most banned mons are (with exeption of Yanma and no this is also not to bring that cancer back into the meta.)
Diglett's capasity shouldn't be compaired to a poke on it's own, it's own capsity is good to begin with but once you start to look after it's teammates or rater what the teammates can do once there answeres or checks are gone. Digfloon is just 1 example that now shines out most as it shows nearly optimal coverage from 2 pokes. But it has always been simalar but never in this degree. I have been very thorn on my argument of it being easly the most supportive pokemon there is being able to support practically anything witout mutch need of synarchy.
Everyone who knows how to build a proper core knows Diglett + nearly anything can be refered to a core as Diglett can either wear down an opponnant for Spam like Scarf Dril, Smashers etc. It can go remove the answere all the way refering to the most common argument of it removing checks like Ponyta/most Rock types (at +0 speed) for Drifloon/Fletch. It can make things set up bait with Memento that while currently feels less nessesairly thanks to the FloonDig core but reguardless it's more important to note then it's to forget. Lastly and in my opinion least important part is the acual capasity of Diglett on it's own, it's been an argument for months if on the forums or on PS chat (poor way to talk about it but k). Diglett has highest speed and somewhat arguable wallbreaking capasity missing on some walls and breaking on a shit list of ballenced pokemon, nothing that in just this sentence can't be prepaired for. It's also not like Diglett is the only spash able poke to be called a Core as Ponyta/Mienfoo can be smacked on allot of things either being to lure or to punish generally wide play styles like ballenced, just not in this degree.
I have seen allot of arguments about Diglett being weak and frail, well it is ,but if you're viewing it as a poke on its own thne yes it's not suspect worthy but that's also the wrong way to view it. Diglet on it's own isn't the problem but the options/support it can provide for any other poke is far beyon what any poke in the meta can do. Complex banning is worthless like sugesting Arena trap should be banned is rediculess as you take the same options away for Trapinch(not that I mind that, but it's literally useless to take versatility of a poke that isn't all too viable to begin with and suggest that did be broke based on having a simalar aspect aswell), sure Trapinch did be more viable once Dig is gone but that's AFTER, people already explained me to care about the subject given right now rater then resaults happening afterwards.
Others suggested banning a combo of pokemon (lol), the most complex ban you can make is just redundant as Dig can literally be placed with again roughly anything.
There are answeres to anycore and I am not here to just list down a load of less viable or plain creative set's inorder to provide more evidance Pro or Contra the general though of it's current state.
 
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Merritt

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Head TD
So while I'm not going to say that a suspect is a dumb idea, I think Heysup has the right of it by saying that there should be a little more time before we actually seriously suspect Drifloon or Diglett because of the DigFloon core. Really the first hint of Drifloon being a serious threat was what, when Levi and Madoka were playing around with it? The nomination for it to move up to A happened December 26th and that's really the first mention of how good RecycleWisp floon is. In other words, it's been less than 2 months since it even started becoming popular. In other words, either DigFloon has nearly no counters and we're all completely unobservant idiots for not noticing this in the year and a half since misdreavus was banned and especially during the Diglett (and Gothita) suspect test, or it's some really strong hype about what is in fact a good mon that needs to die down at least a little bit before seriously talking about suspecting something.

That doesn't mean ignore it! Take a hard look at it and start using stuff on your teams to beat it! It's a cycle and that's a good thing to prevent a meta from becoming stale. Try new stuff, theorymon, get creative. If it turns out that either Diglett or Drifloon is borked even after you try to make teams that are made with it in mind, then yeah, they might deserve a suspect. But again, six weeks isn't really long enough to explore answers, especially when you've got statements like being limited to resttalk lax and scarf amaura as the only digfloon answers. I mean thinking for like three seconds I got scarf gastly, carvanha, SD corphish, scarfchou (factoring in crit and freeze chance, it can just spam ice beam and usually beat 84 spdef floon), and there's almost definitely more. And these aren't exactly crazy, unheard of sets. You need to consider floon when you teambuild, but that's true of a dozen other things too.
 

mad0ka

華々しい
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
So while I'm not going to say that a suspect is a dumb idea, I think Heysup has the right of it by saying that there should be a little more time before we actually seriously suspect Drifloon or Diglett because of the DigFloon core. Really the first hint of Drifloon being a serious threat was what, when Levi and Madoka were playing around with it? The nomination for it to move up to A happened December 26th and that's really the first mention of how good RecycleWisp floon is. In other words, it's been less than 2 months since it even started becoming popular. In other words, either DigFloon has nearly no counters and we're all completely unobservant idiots for not noticing this in the year and a half since misdreavus was banned and especially during the Diglett (and Gothita) suspect test, or it's some really strong hype about what is in fact a good mon that needs to die down at least a little bit before seriously talking about suspecting something.

That doesn't mean ignore it! Take a hard look at it and start using stuff on your teams to beat it! It's a cycle and that's a good thing to prevent a meta from becoming stale. Try new stuff, theorymon, get creative. If it turns out that either Diglett or Drifloon is borked even after you try to make teams that are made with it in mind, then yeah, they might deserve a suspect. But again, six weeks isn't really long enough to explore answers, especially when you've got statements like being limited to resttalk lax and scarf amaura as the only digfloon answers. I mean thinking for like three seconds I got scarf gastly, carvanha, SD corphish, scarfchou (factoring in crit and freeze chance, it can just spam ice beam and usually beat 84 spdef floon), and there's almost definitely more. And these aren't exactly crazy, unheard of sets. You need to consider floon when you teambuild, but that's true of a dozen other things too.
Drifloon outspeeds scarf gastly after unburden? And Carvanha needs to play mindgames to win vs floon, since Floon is faster, because a burned Carvanha is a useless Carvanha. Corphish also doesn't appreciate being burned at all, and scarfchou is an even worse check to Drifloon than BJ/evio chou because it's that much more worn down by wisp+acro, as vswitch/ice beam don't kill Floon.
 

Merritt

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Head TD
Drifloon outspeeds scarf gastly after unburden? And Carvanha needs to play mindgames to win vs floon, since Floon is faster, because a burned Carvanha is a useless Carvanha. Corphish also doesn't appreciate being burned at all, and scarfchou is an even worse check to Drifloon than BJ/evio chou because it's that much more worn down by wisp+acro, as vswitch/ice beam don't kill Floon.
For the following calcs I'm giving Drifloon a benefit of the defender and making it bulkier than most people run based on the conversation we had a while back.

36 Atk Drifloon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Gastly: 15-18 (78.9 - 94.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
200 SpA Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 196 HP / 84 SpD Drifloon: 30-36 (107.1 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 36)

That's... good for Drifloon?

Carvanha wins, I have no clue what you're talking about unless you mean the situation where you hardswitch to Carvanha and get it burned for some reason.
IF Drifloon has the Unburden boost, then it does not have Berry Juice, so if it burns Carvanha...
196+ Atk Life Orb burned Carvanha Crunch vs. 196 HP / 84 Def Drifloon: 21-25 (75 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25)
It must recycle next turn or it's dead, and soon enough Carvanha's outspeeding it. This even puts it in death range from rocks, so it's not even in a position where it can afford to switch out. Alternatively, if you're feeling ballsy, you can go for Aqua Jet.
196+ Atk Life Orb burned Carvanha Aqua Jet vs. 196 HP / 84 Def Drifloon: 4-6 (14.2 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO
(4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6)
It's around a 50% chance to kill.

Of course this does result in a burned Carvanha, which isn't exactly ideal but it's trading a burned Carvanha for a dead Drifloon, and if Drifloon is as threatening as it's being portrayed you should be thrilled to make that trade.

If Drifloon doesn't have the unburden boost it obviously loses.

This is also of course discounting the special attacking sets which don't care nearly as much about being burned.
236+ SpA Life Orb Carvanha Dark Pulse vs. 196 HP / 84 SpD Drifloon: 34-42 (121.4 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(34, 34, 34, 34, 34, 34, 39, 39, 39, 39, 39, 39, 39, 39, 39, 42)

Corphish might not appreciate being burned, but it's trading a burned mon for taking out an opponent win condition. That's not a terrible trade off like you're suggesting, especially if Drifloon is this mega broken thing. And at +2 even a burned Corphish is still decently threatening.

ScarfChou's matchup vs Drifloon alone isn't really the point, more that ScarfChou beats Diglett as well as Drifloon, while the other sets don't do well vs Diglett. Granted ScarfChou has some issues vs Drifloon, but not quite as many as you suggest, it should still win 1v1, even if like all games where there's a Diglett you have to make the correct prediction a couple times.

Here's another fun one, LO torchic! Granted it doesn't OHKO the 196/84 Drifloon, but it almost always 2HKOs since it does significantly more than 20 damage.
200+ SpA Life Orb Torchic Fire Blast vs. 196 HP / 84 SpD Drifloon: 21-27 (75 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 27)
 
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mad0ka

華々しい
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
For the following calcs I'm giving Drifloon a benefit of the defender and making it bulkier than most people run based on the conversation we had a while back.

36 Atk Drifloon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Gastly: 15-18 (78.9 - 94.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)
200 SpA Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 196 HP / 84 SpD Drifloon: 30-36 (107.1 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 36)

That's... good for Drifloon?

Carvanha wins, I have no clue what you're talking about unless you mean the situation where you hardswitch to Carvanha and get it burned for some reason.
IF Drifloon has the Unburden boost, then it does not have Berry Juice, so if it burns Carvanha...
196+ Atk Life Orb burned Carvanha Crunch vs. 196 HP / 84 Def Drifloon: 21-25 (75 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25)
It must recycle next turn or it's dead, and soon enough Carvanha's outspeeding it. This even puts it in death range from rocks, so it's not even in a position where it can afford to switch out. Alternatively, if you're feeling ballsy, you can go for Aqua Jet.
196+ Atk Life Orb burned Carvanha Aqua Jet vs. 196 HP / 84 Def Drifloon: 4-6 (14.2 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO
(4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6)
It's around a 50% chance to kill.

Of course this does result in a burned Carvanha, which isn't exactly ideal but it's trading a burned Carvanha for a dead Drifloon, and if Drifloon is as threatening as it's being portrayed you should be thrilled to make that trade.

If Drifloon doesn't have the unburden boost it obviously loses.

This is also of course discounting the special attacking sets which don't care nearly as much about being burned.
236+ SpA Life Orb Carvanha Dark Pulse vs. 196 HP / 84 SpD Drifloon: 34-42 (121.4 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(34, 34, 34, 34, 34, 34, 39, 39, 39, 39, 39, 39, 39, 39, 39, 42)

Corphish might not appreciate being burned, but it's trading a burned mon for taking out an opponent win condition. That's not a terrible trade off like you're suggesting, especially if Drifloon is this mega broken thing. And at +2 even a burned Corphish is still decently threatening.

ScarfChou's matchup vs Drifloon alone isn't really the point, more that ScarfChou beats Diglett as well as Drifloon, while the other sets don't do well vs Diglett. Granted ScarfChou has some issues vs Drifloon, but not quite as many as you suggest, it should still win 1v1, even if like all games where there's a Diglett you have to make the correct prediction a couple times.

Here's another fun one, LO torchic! Granted it doesn't OHKO the 196/84 Drifloon, but it almost always 2HKOs since it does significantly more than 20 damage.
200+ SpA Life Orb Torchic Fire Blast vs. 196 HP / 84 SpD Drifloon: 21-27 (75 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 27)
Considering drifloon can just come in later and get a recycle off, it doesn't matter if it takes 85% from crunch from a burned carv. Also yeah while Drif may not OHKO gast, it does after just a bit of prior dmg, so after like 2 or 3 rounds of SR/any slight prior dmg it's gone. Also Corphish doesn't take out Drifloon. I'm not sure where you think it does. And a +2 burned Corphish is as threatening as a +0 corphish, so if you lack water resists, sure it is, but otherwise.... not really.

e: Since ppl don't seem to get this, let me explain. Drifloon can switch out after it burns something. In many cases, burning something is as good as beating it, and once Floon switches out and comes back in later, the burned thing no longer threatens it anymore.

 
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sam-testings

What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
So a lot of players have been talking about Bronzor recently and how its super anti meta so here a list of pros and cons about Bronzor

Pros:
• Counters Floon Dig which is very popular right now
• Has very good defensive stats which let it tank a lot of things
• Has a large variety of moves it can run from Stealth Rocks to Double Screens
• Is annoying to fighting and flying types in general

Cons:
• Knock off is on every other mon out there and Bronzor takes a hefty amount of damage from it
• Bronzor has no form of recovery and is easily whittled down throughout a battle
• Its offensive stats are lacking and it cant really do much damage.
• Dies to Drilbur and Pawn, both very common mons

Just a couple of thoughts about Bronzor. I probably missed a point of two but that should be everything important.

Edit: Its recovery isn't reliable because recycle Bj, while annoying, is beaten by knock off.
 
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mad0ka

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is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I mean recycle+BJ is reliable enough a method, you just need to let it not be knocked off, which isn't hard to do unless it's like knock off archen/drifloon or something. It's usable with CM/Recycle/Flash Cannon/Filler, but it requires certain mons like Timburr, Mienfoo, Pawniard, Drilbur, Ponyta, Larvesta to be removed before it can do much anything, as Bronzor doesn't exactly have much of an offensive presence so it's not difficult to switch into. It's not annoying at all to fighting types because they all force it out with the threat of knock off, which is an important nitpick.

Besides that though, Bronzor is really neat in that it beats the common variants of Abra/Drifloon/Diglett/Archen/Fletch/Spritzee/Snubbull+most special attackers once it starts boosting. It's fourth moveslot is also highly customizeable, so it can also to an extent lure things and wear them down, like HP Fighting for Pawniard switchins, Toxic so that it wears down Drifloon/Fletchling without needing to get to +6 spatk, Stealth Rock so that it can support its team, or more I cba to list because it has a pretty nice movepool. Definitely an under appreciated mon.
 
Recycle+Juice is really only "reliable" when you have enough Speed to not worry about getting Knocked Off, like Drifloon does. Bronzor is pretty slow (even Timburr outspeeds it), so it's going to be a lot more difficult for it to get going that way. With Knock Off being ever-present, though, I doubt it's really going to be used that much. It's just too risky of a Pokemon to start setting up with since there are so many Pokemon that threaten it like mad0ka listed. That being said, if the only Pokemon your opponent has left are Diglett and Drifloon, it's going to do great. You're going to have to play really, really carefully in order to get to that stage, and if Drifloon isn't even on the other team, you're only going to be able to set up on certain other Pokemon like Fletchling, because Knock Off is on pretty much every Fighting-type. It's a cool FloonDig counter, but I think it's pretty sub-optimal mostly because of how slow it is.

It can beat other CM users like Spritzee and Swirlix Gothita, though, which is cool.
 
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The only set for bronzor is earthquake recycle flash cannon filler (psychic/toxic), this thread has gotten a little out of hand with bronzor praising, yes its immune to insert bird + diglett duo (bar like dodou but who runs that with diglett?), but its still a very weak mon. Creates way too many free turns for many pokes, to the point where its unique defensive niche is nearly never worth it on defensively inclined teams that typically don't wanna give free turns without godlike predicting or use of recycle which lol screws you over. On offense its a little more acceptable as you can play around the momentum it loses, while abusing its ability to just wall a bunch of pokes. SR is damn near unviable, and calm mind is absolutely to put it bluntly.

On a seperate note, a mon that is p "anti-meta" imo is lileep, it possess amazing bulk, nice stabs for the purpose of checking relevant threats (ie: Much more viable floondig counter) alongside decent offensive presence. Stealth Rock combined with its ability to beat all spinners under most circumstances early-mid game makes it highly reliable, or you can run earth power to lure in magnemite/pawniard. Before I am reminded of the mons downsides, please just try the mon out, I'm not claiming its the next top tier but theory can only get you so far with understanding.
 
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