Makin' it Rain: UU Rain discussion

Don't really see the logic here, as SD Qwilfish and Ludicolo also outspeed and OHKO at +2. Kabutops may have notable advantages, but Scarf Saur has nothing to do with it.
There is not a chance Qwilfish or Ludicolo will get SDs up on any offensive team.

Any good one at least. And without Kabutops being able to OHKO Venusaur, you're going to at least lose one sweeper.
 

Bluewind

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There is not a chance Qwilfish or Ludicolo will get SDs up on any offensive team.

Any good one at least. And without Kabutops being able to OHKO Venusaur, you're going to at least lose one sweeper.
If you switch your Venusaur in after one of your pokés die, take a hit and KO Ludicolo back with Sludge Bomb; you have a fodder for Qwilfish to setup (just one of the many possible situations, as Ludicolo could still setup on stuff like CB Azu locked at Aqua Jet or fearing a KO and switching out, as it could be useful revenging Kabutops later).
 

FlareBlitz

Relaxed nature. Loves to eat.
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Also posting to say that I lol whenever I see a scarfsaur, because it means free setup for either Kabutops or Ludicolo (depending on Sludge Bomb/Leaf Storm). Don't use Scarfsaur as a rain check, or if you do, bring it in right before rain is going to end and put the bulky setup poke to sleep (of course that means a rain sweeper gets to fuck up your team for 6 turns or so).
 
The point is you don't have Kabutops to set up on Sludge Bomb. Qwilfish still takes a decent amount from it, and to be honest Qwilfish isn't nearly as hard to stop as Kabutops is simply because of priority.
 
Qwilfish gets priority too.
Yeah but that means no Swords Dance, and I think we can all agree on which move makes Qwilfish harder to deal with in general.

Well actually, Shoddy may allow it as a combo, haven't tested, but anyone who does use it if so should be banned from competitive battling for life for being such an unethical bastard! Lol ok that's a bit strong, but seriously knowledgeable players should respect the process and try to avoid such illegal combos or methods whenever possible, especially if they result in (or come close to) breaking a Pokemon or concept.
 

FlareBlitz

Relaxed nature. Loves to eat.
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Why is SD/Aqua Jet banned? It's not banned on Shoddy as far as I know. And to quote SDS, "Fuck ethics, play to win". (Not really a good idea but I find that quote hilarious)
 
Why is SD/Aqua Jet banned? It's not banned on Shoddy as far as I know. And to quote SDS, "Fuck ethics, play to win". (Not really a good idea but I find that quote hilarious)
It's impossible to have both in-game: SD is gotten through 3rd gen Move Tutor, and Aqua Jet is an egg move only in HG/SS, making them incompatible with each other.
 
Sadly, Qwilfish's 95 base attack isn't too high, and you won't do too much to Bulky Waters with Poison Jab. You could always Explode, but that's the end on your sweep and your opponent could just switch to a sacrifice to conserve their Bulky Water..

And Ludicolo's Attack is 70 LOL. Floatzel has better Attack, 105, but doesn't get Swords Dance. Assuming one Bulk Up, Floatzel is still useless against Bulky Waters... As Milotic and Slowbro can still Recover or Slack Off its Returns.
 

shrang

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Floatzel isn't a bad Rain lead, IMO. You can Taunt Froslass and stuff, or you can set up Rain and attack from the get go.
 
Has anyone tried Kabutops without Rain as a "Starmie-ish" Rapid Spinner? I use this set:

Kabutps @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
-Stone Edge
-Waterfall
-Aqua Jet
-Rapid Spin

This set is actually great. It threatens most of the Stealth Rock users with STAB Waterfall, while also nailing Pokemon like Venusaur with it's powerful STAB Stone Edge. Aqua Jet gives it great versatility. Additionally, it makes a great Rain counter. It outspeeds and beats Ludicolo, Gorebyss, and basically anything besides Qwilfish (who it may still beat if it survives Waterfall).
 
Has anyone tried Kabutops without Rain as a "Starmie-ish" Rapid Spinner? I use this set:

Kabutps @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
-Stone Edge
-Waterfall
-Aqua Jet
-Rapid Spin

This set is actually great. It threatens most of the Stealth Rock users with STAB Waterfall, while also nailing Pokemon like Venusaur with it's powerful STAB Stone Edge. Aqua Jet gives it great versatility. Additionally, it makes a great Rain counter. It outspeeds and beats Ludicolo, Gorebyss, and basically anything besides Qwilfish (who it may still beat if it survives Waterfall).
I think everyone with that kind of offensive mentality has tried something similar to this in the past. And I agree, it does work rather well if you can predict right, but I was never a fan of Life Orb + Rapid Spin without any recovery, and usually opted for a substitute item like Mystic Water in order to have some extra survivability in exchange for a small amount of power. But to each their own I suppose.
 
Has anyone tried Kabutops without Rain as a "Starmie-ish" Rapid Spinner? I use this set:

Kabutps @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
-Stone Edge
-Waterfall
-Aqua Jet
-Rapid Spin

This set is actually great. It threatens most of the Stealth Rock users with STAB Waterfall, while also nailing Pokemon like Venusaur with it's powerful STAB Stone Edge. Aqua Jet gives it great versatility. Additionally, it makes a great Rain counter. It outspeeds and beats Ludicolo, Gorebyss, and basically anything besides Qwilfish (who it may still beat if it survives Waterfall).
It's more Donphan, than Starmie in my opinion. Starmie's ability to recover sets it apart from the other RSers. Kabutops (sadly) cannot do this... Short of LOLGiga Drain... I think, anyway..

Anyhoo, still looks like a good set. I'll probably try it.
 
Random rain log #6 vs. FlareBlitz, annontated by yours truly.

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause
FlareTroll sent out Penny (lvl 100 Pinsir ?).
Banedon sent out Qwilfish (lvl 100 Qwilfish ?).
FlareTroll: Allo
Banedon: Hihi
Banedon: Btw
Banedon: I swear
Banedon: I didn't steal your team entirely
Banedon: Even though it's 80% the same
FlareTroll: Haha
FlareTroll: I don't mind.
FlareTroll: As long as youj play it.
FlareTroll: well
Banedon: Suggest
Banedon: What move should I use now
FlareTroll: Rain Dance.
FlareTroll: I kill you, you get 7 turns of rain rape
Qwilfish used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
Penny used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
The rain continues to fall.

Since it's my first (and only) game in many days, I forgot how much speed I'm running. Turns out I'm faster or equally fast (base speed 85 vs. 85) so the early Rain Dance was a bit wasted.
---
FlareTroll: Oh I will say
Banedon: Wow I'm faster
FlareTroll: This team is highly resistant to rain.
FlareTroll: So if you lose don't feel bad.
FlareTroll switched in Missy (lvl 100 Mismagius ?).
Qwilfish used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
The rain continues to fall.

FlareBlitz trying to bait me into Explosion probably, but then again I don't see any reason not to set up Spikes. Lead Pinsir is rare (although to be fair UU leads seem to have gotten a lot more diverse), so I don't know its moveset precisely. Of course after the game I find out Pinsir learns Earthquake ...
---
FlareTroll switched in Polly (lvl 100 Poliwrath ?).
Polly was hurt by Spikes!
Polly lost 12% of its health.
Qwilfish used Waterfall.
Polly's Water Absorb absorbed damage!
Polly restored 12% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.

On the other hand Mismagius I'm more familiar with, and Mismagius is definitely dangerous. I attack it.
---
FlareTroll switched in Missy (lvl 100 Mismagius ?).
Qwilfish used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
The rain continues to fall.

FlareBlitz trying to bait me into Explosion again, but then the more common sets for Poliwrath (who's rather more common than Pinsir) can't kill Qwilfish. I'm still at 100% so more Spikes go up.
---
Qwilfish used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Missy used Thunderbolt.
It's super effective!
Qwilfish lost 100% of its health.
Banedon's Qwilfish fainted.
The rain continues to fall.

I could've and perhaps should have Waterfall'ed again but having run into Poliwrath last time, I didn't.
---
FlareTroll: Good start.
Banedon switched in Ludicolo (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Pointed stones dug into Ludicolo.
Ludicolo lost 12% of its health.
Ludicolo used Surf.
Missy lost 100% of its health.
FlareTroll's Missy fainted.
Ludicolo lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.

FlareBlitz was probably counting on me Swords Dancing and getting a good hit in, but word of warning: not all Ludicolos are SD!
---
FlareTroll: Special ludi?
Banedon: Not all Ludicolos are SD
FlareTroll switched in Penny (lvl 100 Pinsir ?).
Penny was hurt by Spikes!
Penny lost 25% of its health.
Banedon: Lol
FlareTroll: Just the good ones~ =.=
FlareTroll switched in Polly (lvl 100 Poliwrath ?).
Polly was hurt by Spikes!
Polly lost 25% of its health.
Ludicolo used Surf.
Polly's Water Absorb absorbed damage!
Polly restored 25% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.

The 3 layers of Spikes are really cramping FlareBlitz.
---
Ludicolo used Grass Knot.
It's super effective!
Polly lost 81% of its health.
Ludicolo lost 10% of its health.
Polly used Substitute.
But it failed!
The rain stopped.
Polly's leftovers restored its health a little!
Polly restored 6% of its health.

Of course this doesn't help either. I don't know why FlareBlitz tried to Sub. I'm Life Orbed, rain is still up and I've no reason to switch out / not switch attacks. Ludicolo being part Grass also means my move is obvious ...
---
FlareTroll switched in Sally (lvl 100 Sceptile ?).
Sally was hurt by Spikes!
Sally lost 25% of its health.
Ludicolo used Grass Knot.
It's not very effective...
Sally lost 23% of its health.
Ludicolo lost 10% of its health.
Sally's leftovers restored its health a little!
Sally restored 6% of its health.

Poliwrath was on 25% with 3 layers of Spikes up, so I risked there not being rain and attacked, anticipating that it won't switch out.
---
Banedon switched in Uxie (lvl 100 Uxie).
Pointed stones dug into Uxie.
Uxie lost 12% of its health.
Sally used Substitute.
Sally lost 25% of its health.
Sally made a substitute!
Sally's leftovers restored its health a little!
Sally restored 6% of its health.

Time to put rain back up. Fortunately U-turn is super effective on Sceptile, so it should break the Sub. If not, I'll just go to Mesprit and break with a second U-turn.
---
Sally used Leech Seed.
Uxie was seeded!
Uxie used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
Sally's leftovers restored its health a little!
Sally restored 6% of its health.
Uxie's health was sapped by leech seed!
Uxie lost 12% of its health.
Sally regained health!
Sally restored 16% of its health.
---
Sally used Leaf Storm.
A critical hit!
Uxie lost 75% of its health.
Banedon's Uxie fainted.
Sally's special attack was harshly lowered.
The rain continues to fall.
Sally's leftovers restored its health a little!
Sally restored 6% of its health.

Sad, but Mesprit can still break the sub!
---
FlareTroll: Tsk.
Banedon switched in Mesprit (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Pointed stones dug into Mesprit.
Mesprit lost 12% of its health.
Sally used Leaf Storm.
Mesprit lost 22% of its health.
Sally's special attack was harshly lowered.
Mesprit used U-turn.
It's super effective!
The substitute took damage for Sally!
Sally's substitute faded!
Banedon switched in Gorebyss (lvl 100 Gorebyss ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gorebyss.
Gorebyss lost 12% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Sally's leftovers restored its health a little!
Sally restored 6% of its health.

Going to Ice Beam here - Surf is NVE on Sceptile after all.
---
FlareTroll switched in Luna (lvl 100 Jynx ?).
Luna foresaw Surf!
Luna was hurt by Spikes!
Luna lost 25% of its health.
Gorebyss used Ice Beam.
It's not very effective...
Luna lost 25% of its health.
Gorebyss lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Luna's leftovers restored its health a little!
Luna restored 6% of its health.

Not all Gorebyss's are the legendary Specs Gorebyss either!
---
FlareTroll switched in Polly (lvl 100 Poliwrath ?).
Polly was hurt by Spikes!
Polly lost 25% of its health.
Gorebyss used Surf.
Polly's Water Absorb absorbed damage!
Polly restored 25% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
Polly's leftovers restored its health a little!
Polly restored 6% of its health.
---
Banedon: What the heck
Banedon: You didn't die to Spikes
FlareTroll: Nup.
FlareTroll: I had enough HP
Sums it up. No wonder FlareBlitz switched out earlier.
FlareTroll switched in Luna (lvl 100 Jynx ?).
Luna foresaw Surf!
Luna was hurt by Spikes!
Luna lost 25% of its health.
Gorebyss used Hidden Power.
Luna lost 32% of its health.
FlareTroll's Luna fainted.
Gorebyss lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
Banedon: 25%
FlareTroll switched in Penny (lvl 100 Pinsir ?).
Penny was hurt by Spikes!
Penny lost 25% of its health.
Banedon: When you switched out
FlareTroll: Ya
FlareTroll: It rounds up.
FlareTroll: Due to Odd HP
Gorebyss used Ice Beam.
Penny lost 50% of its health.
FlareTroll's Penny fainted.
Gorebyss lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.
---
FlareTroll switched in Rei (lvl 100 Rhyperior ?).
Rei was hurt by Spikes!
Rei lost 25% of its health.
King Leonidas has entered the room.
Banedon: Last turn of rain
Banedon: Hm
King Leonidas: sweet rhyperior
FlareTroll: :3
Gorebyss used Ice Beam.
It's super effective!
Rei lost 75% of its health.
FlareTroll's Rei fainted.
Gorebyss lost 10% of its health.
The rain stopped.

I didn't do calcs, so this last turn of rain was a tough call. If I Surfed, Poliwrath may come back in. Ice Beam still hits Rhyperior super effectively as well as Sceptile if it switches in, and can hit Poliwrath. Turns out it's still strong enough to KO Rhyperior, making my deliberations wasted.
---
King Leonidas: :(
FlareTroll switched in Sally (lvl 100 Sceptile ?).
Sally was hurt by Spikes!
Sally lost 25% of its health.
Sally used Leaf Storm.
It's super effective!
Gorebyss lost 48% of its health.
Banedon's Gorebyss fainted.
Sally's special attack was harshly lowered.
Sally's leftovers restored its health a little!
Sally restored 6% of its health.

Up 4-2 with 3 sweepers left I sacrificed Gorebyss to make sure Sceptile doesn't get a Sub up.
---
Banedon switched in Mesprit (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Pointed stones dug into Mesprit.
Mesprit lost 12% of its health.
FlareTroll switched in Polly (lvl 100 Poliwrath ?).
Polly was hurt by Spikes!
Polly lost 25% of its health.
Mesprit used Rain Dance.
Rain began to fall!
The rain continues to fall.
Polly's leftovers restored its health a little!
Polly restored 6% of its health.
---
Polly used Encore.
Mesprit got an encore!
Mesprit used Rain Dance.
The rain continues to fall.
Polly's leftovers restored its health a little!
Polly restored 6% of its health.

Bad Poliwrath /slap.
---
Polly is tightening its focus!
Banedon switched in Ludicolo (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Pointed stones dug into Ludicolo.
Ludicolo lost 12% of its health.
Polly used Focus Punch.
Ludicolo lost 46% of its health.
Banedon's Ludicolo fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
Polly's leftovers restored its health a little!
Polly restored 6% of its health.

I couldn't do anything about that, it was either sacrificing Kabutops or Ludicolo.
---
Banedon switched in Mesprit (lvl 100 Mesprit).
Pointed stones dug into Mesprit.
Mesprit lost 12% of its health.
Polly used Waterfall.
Mesprit lost 41% of its health.
Banedon's Mesprit fainted.
The rain continues to fall.
Polly's leftovers restored its health a little!
Polly restored 6% of its health.

Why'd I switch Mesprit in when he's faster ...
---
King Leonidas: waterfall that bitch
Banedon switched in Kabutops (lvl 100 Kabutops ?).
Pointed stones dug into Kabutops.
Kabutops lost 12% of its health.
FlareTroll: Hope stone edge hits.
Polly is tightening its focus!
Kabutops used Stone Edge.
It's not very effective...
Polly lost 31% of its health.
FlareTroll's Polly fainted.
Kabutops lost 10% of its health.
The rain continues to fall.

Fortunately Stone Edge hits, or it would've been game ... in the opposite direction! :)
---
FlareTroll: :3
FlareTroll: gg
Banedon: I forgot you were faster >_<
Banedon: gg
FlareTroll switched in Sally (lvl 100 Sceptile ?).
Sally was hurt by Spikes!
Sally lost 25% of its health.
Kabutops used Waterfall.
It's not very effective...
Sally lost 30% of its health.
FlareTroll's Sally fainted.
Banedon wins!
King Leonidas has left the room.
FlareTroll: Good play.
Banedon: Bit lucky
FlareTroll: Your Qwilfish is too fast tho
Banedon: gl next =)
FlareTroll: How do you handle ambi
Banedon: Lol
Banedon: I've only played like 7 games with this team
Banedon: And haven't met an Ambipom lead yet
FlareTroll: How much HP/def are you using?
Banedon: 84/0
Banedon: 252 speed Adamant
FlareTroll: Qwilfish needs 252/156 to guarantee survival against Silk Scarf Fake Out -> Return
FlareTroll: That leaves you enough EVs to run SPE to outrun +80 scarfers in the rain
FlareTroll: and enough ATK to ohko missy and swellow in the rain
Banedon: Why not just switch to Uxie
Banedon: On the Fake Out
Banedon: I stole your idea of being able to OHKO 252/252+ Venusaur with Explosion
Banedon: Btw
FlareTroll: xP
Banedon: Anyway gl next
Banedon: I'm probably going to stop, playing less than one game a day lol


I think I'm backing Erazor's opinion that rain can be beaten, so (for now at least) no need to nerf Rain Dance.

Also glad to see you agree Damp Rock makes a difference, Heysup :)
 
Floatzel lead? That gives away Rain Dance. Why not use Electrode instead then if you don't mind losing the element of surprise? Floatzel speed-ties with Ambipom ><, so what would you run? Rain Dance, Taunt, Protect, Waterfall?
 

shrang

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Electrode can't do all that much apart from Thundering things and Exploding. Floatzel can start off with firearms blazing. Yeh, I probably would run that set, although I probably wouldn't mind Ambipom all that much and use Ice Punch or Return over Protect.
 
Banedon said:
Also glad to see you agree Damp Rock makes a difference, Heysup :)
I never said it didn't but I still (and probably always will now that there is overwhelming evidence) think that either Kabutops or just the move Rain Dance in general is the culprit, and not Damp Rock. Damp Rock is not a necessity as YaM and My logs have shown.
 
Electrode can't do all that much apart from Thundering things and Exploding. Floatzel can start off with firearms blazing. Yeh, I probably would run that set, although I probably wouldn't mind Ambipom all that much and use Ice Punch or Return over Protect.
Without defensive investment, LO Fake Out does 55.3% - 65.6%, LO Return does 93.9% - 110.9%. You could always run to Uxie, but ... Taunt? You could also run to Kabutops, but you wouldn't like Low Kick too either.

Floatzel needs 140 HP EVs to guarantee survival from LO Return... and you need Protect.

I have come to a conclusion, the thing making RD overpowered is not Damp Rock, but Heal Bell/RD Uxie.
*gasp* from my logs? What about other HB+RD users? (for example, Lanturn) Are they broken too?
 
So what's Umbreon's crippling weakness? You can't just arbitrarily pick and choose certain traits and come to the conclusion that Uxie is the culprit. You have to do a bit better than that.
Umbreon can't use Rain Dance.

/better


But seriously, has there been any sort of decent rain team without Uxie around? I haven't seen it. Uxie is the only reason Rain beats any of my teams by nullifying para and destroying Toxicroak.
 
Umbreon can't use Rain Dance.
Why not?

But okay, most other Rain support pokes don't do as well against Toxicroak, but you have to explain why this is important in the context of what is broken, and why it is only Uxie that breaks anything.

You might have a point, but so far you haven't even tried to make a valid argument that justifies it. And any argument based on only what you personally have trouble with is not a good one at all.
 

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